Cable inTop Tube

[John B.]

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?
--

Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an
oval cutout at both ends. Some have casing stops at the
ends, bare wire only passes the inside section. Others take
a full outer casing through their length. (I use auto brake
line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a real issue with
both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber
locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and
riders complain of that.

The SR Prizm has a casing port cast into the top headlug and
at the seatlug. There's a finger-sized hole between seat
tube and top tube to guide the wire out. Works well and
looks clean but the advent of robot-welded aluminum frames a
few years afterwards killed the project.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/SRPRIZM.JPG

Some builders have only casing stops at the ends. Good luck
threading the wires! That's quite tedious on some of the
lesser carbon frames now.

Trek changed to a cast end in 1985:
http://www.vintage-trek.com/Trek_timeline.htm
with a rear changer casing stop cast in. Gear wire goes over
a nylon BB plate then into a hole at the bottom of the
chainstay. Those are amazingly difficult to thread so the
following year they added a funnel-shaped nylon guide inside
the chainstay. Those can fall out and stick askew when the
old wire is pulled out.

The 'aero look' fad went down some twisted paths:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/panateam.html
That Panasonic Team America is typical of the era.

Anyway those are a few which come to mind, none is perfect
but all are clever in some ways, particularly better than
clamped-on steel clips with 3mm screws which hold water and
make pits in the top tube.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

That GIOS frame looks like an almost verbatim copy of my Gazelle Trim
Trophy frame that I still ride. All the way down to the paint color, I
have the same blue. Except for the transfer labels, of course.

Is that crack in photos 6 and 7 something that can happen out of the
blue on these old frames an maybe cause a nasty crash?

I am always surprised when owners are willing to pour so much money into
old road bikes. Many out here do that with Peugoet frames. One guy who I
met at a pub had a fancy Italian bike parked outside and said he has a
Peugeot in restoration, and that he had (so far) sunk more than $1k into it.

> The SR Prizm has a casing port cast into the top headlug and at the
> seatlug. There's a finger-sized hole between seat tube and top tube to
> guide the wire out. Works well and looks clean but the advent of
> robot-welded aluminum frames a few years afterwards killed the project.
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/SRPRIZM.JPG
>
> Some builders have only casing stops at the ends. Good luck threading
> the wires! That's quite tedious on some of the lesser carbon frames now.
>

Sometimes what helps is to run some thin sewing thread into it and suck
it out the older end with a shop vac. It can also help to make a knot in
it as an "air floation aid" and cut the thread flush after the knot.

> Trek changed to a cast end in 1985:
> http://www.vintage-trek.com/Trek_timeline.htm
> with a rear changer casing stop cast in. Gear wire goes over a nylon BB
> plate then into a hole at the bottom of the chainstay. Those are
> amazingly difficult to thread so the following year they added a
> funnel-shaped nylon guide inside the chainstay. Those can fall out and
> stick askew when the old wire is pulled out.
>
> The 'aero look' fad went down some twisted paths:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/panateam.html
> That Panasonic Team America is typical of the era.
>
> Anyway those are a few which come to mind, none is perfect but all are
> clever in some ways, particularly better than clamped-on steel clips
> with 3mm screws which hold water and make pits in the top tube.
>

Or the brazed-on square loops on MTB with a measly cable-tie meant to
hold a brake hose. Once I had a rider in front of me where that had
popped and the rear brake hose was almost in the spokes. I yelled for a
stop and luckily I carry cable ties in my on-board tool kit.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[John B.]

On Fri, 06 May 2016 08:05:09 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:28:19 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>wrote:

A thousand dollars? But, that is cheaper then buying a new bike of the
same quality.

My LBS has a black plastic bicycle in the front window with a price
tag of about US$ 9,000 and the darned thing doesn't even have pedals.
You have to pay extra to get the pedals.

Think of that. Nearly ten thousand dollars out of pocket and you can't
even push it out of the shop door and get on and ride the thing.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Top price men's suits are sold with no cuffs on the slacks.
You have to wait for that too.

[jbeattie]

That is to restore a Peugeot -- not to buy it new, and I assume it is the restoration of a PX-10 and not a U-08 or some other piece of low-end garbage. Having owned a 1969 PX-10 (which I bought used in '72), I can say that I would much rather own a close-out CAAD 8 with 105 -- which I could pick up down the street for a penny under $1,000. http://www.bikegallery.com/product/cannondale-caad8-105-5-211525-1.htm No pedals, of course, but then I could go buy a pair of used Lyotard rat-trap pedals for $10 at the Community Cycling Center.

My Peugeot, however, did bring me hours of excitement hunting for odd sized bearings, derailleurs with appropriate clamp sizes, special BBs and headsets and stems. Those clever French -- they had a different standard for everything! That's probably why Joerg's friend is spending so much money on the restoration. I should have bought a Raleigh International.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

French Metric format is called "Standard Iternationale"
because no one else uses it.

[Joerg]

Not a whole lot and for just a little more you get a very different
level of machine. Like this:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/cross-bikes/fantom_cross_comp_ti_xv.htm

At the >$1k level I expect amenities such as disc brakes and brifters.

> My LBS has a black plastic bicycle in the front window with a price
> tag of about US$ 9,000 and the darned thing doesn't even have pedals.
> You have to pay extra to get the pedals.
>
> Think of that. Nearly ten thousand dollars out of pocket and you can't
> even push it out of the shop door and get on and ride the thing.
>

Well, some people "need" a $3k Rolex to know that it's 10:05am right
now. Others like me make do with a $40 watch that is sturdy and
seemingly lasts forever.

[Andrew Chaplin]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in news:ngiate$hp5$1...@dont-email.me:

> "Standard Iternationale"

Je pense que c'est le "Systeme international", mais tu as raison autrement.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[John B.]

Are Pants Cuffs back in style?

I hadn't realized as since I retired I've worn nothing but Levi's or
shorts :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 6 May 2016 07:16:25 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>
wrote:

The only French made device I ever owned was Renault Dauphine that I
bought when I came back from 10 years in Japan. Without doubt the
absolute worst automobile I have ever owned.

With that experience in mind I have never, knowingly, owned anything
built in France :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 06 May 2016 10:05:35 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

According to the advert that is a deal where you send them your money
and they ship sometime in the future.

>At the >$1k level I expect amenities such as disc brakes and brifters.
>
>
>> My LBS has a black plastic bicycle in the front window with a price
>> tag of about US$ 9,000 and the darned thing doesn't even have pedals.
>> You have to pay extra to get the pedals.
>>
>> Think of that. Nearly ten thousand dollars out of pocket and you can't
>> even push it out of the shop door and get on and ride the thing.
>>
>
>Well, some people "need" a $3k Rolex to know that it's 10:05am right
>now. Others like me make do with a $40 watch that is sturdy and
>seemingly lasts forever.

Unfortunately many, perhaps most, people attach a label to individuals
at first sight. A bloke with a Timex watch, dirty tee shirt and rubber
flip-flop sandals is usually considered a "no good down, down and
outer" while the bloke in the three piece Brooks Brothers suit and the
Rolex watch is a "Somebody".

Unfortunate but true.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/6/2016 9:41 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> Are Pants Cuffs back in style?
>
> I hadn't realized as since I retired I've worn nothing but Levi's or
> shorts :-)

Pretty similar here. I now wear a suit only for weddings and funerals,
and digging one out is like closet archeology. :-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/6/2016 9:41 PM, John B. wrote:
>
>
> The only French made device I ever owned was Renault Dauphine that I
> bought when I came back from 10 years in Japan. Without doubt the
> absolute worst automobile I have ever owned.
>
> With that experience in mind I have never, knowingly, owned anything
> built in France :-)

Well, I'm still very fond of Zephal pumps! I kinda like Michelin tires,
too.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Of course, we've read here that when a certain occasional poster was in
captivity, he found it possible to disassemble a Rolex and bribe his
guards with its little bits; then when he escaped, to retrieve all the
bits in manly fashion and reassemble the watch.

So a Rolex can be used in ways a Timex can't. As a prop for fantasy, I
mean. ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Steve Patriquen]

I was in the market for an "adventure bike" so had a frame-maker I know build me one to spec. I was disappointed that many of the commercial offerings had either CX-style cable along the top tube (gets in the way of gear bags) or road-style under the down tube, where they get bashed and mucked up.

So I got him to put three stainless steel tubes in the OS down tube for FD, RD and rear brake (hydraulic disc, inside the seatstay/chainstay triangle). The FD cable routing was the only iffy part, but by having that tube exit on top and further up the down tube, it provides a smooth loop to the FD. Hopefully stainless tubes will prevent any rust issues - time will tell.

And a tip for routing bare cable through frames - solder the cable end first.

[John B.]

That sounds like the "Air America Bracelet". A solid gold linked
bracelet, looked something like an "Identification bracelet". The
plan, as one of them explained to me, was that you could break off
links and bribe your way back to civilization. I suppose that the
Devil made me do it, but I replied, "If you were in my little mountain
village I think I'd just shoot you and take the whole thing".

The guy got the strangest look in his face.... I don't believe that he
had ever though of it that way :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

While I was working a suit was perhaps not a necessity but certainly
normal apparel. About a year after I retired I gave away all but one
suit, a navy blue single breasted, which I reckon is good for
everything, Weddings, funerals and even being "laid out" in, when
that day arrives :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I would think that if he used a continuous run of stainless brazed at
both ends it should be waterproof.

In rebuilding one of my frames a while back I gave thought to doing
the same thing. I didn't because it is a sort of fiddly project
getting everything in the right place and the right angle and making
sure that nothing interferes with anything else :-)

I rationalized. I ride on the road. I wash my bike occasionally. It
will take about two days work, after I locate the 1/8" tube. I don't
need it anyway :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

ISTM that if you want it for essentially mechanical reasons (getting in
the way of bags, getting mucked up) it would be a lot simpler to braze
or weld the protective steel tubes to the outside of the bike's frame
tubes. Running them inside frame tubes seems like a finicky and
problematic aesthetic choice.

But personally, I can't see any benefit either way.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Simplex derailleurs changed the TdF -- the first widely used cable actuated derailleurs. I remember reading a book about Coppi that had some interviews of even older Italian riders who complained about getting crushed by the guys with Simplex derailleurs. There were a lot of solid French products -- some too solid. I could have used my old Simplex seat post for clubbing seals or home defense. The Michelin Elan changed the market -- and was promptly appropriated by Mike Sinyard and Specialized. Such is competition. I still preferred the SuperCompHD to Turbos.

Speaking of French derailleurs, I was so bent on having a Campagnolo NR rear derailleur on my PX-10 that I hacked off the Simplex hanger. At age 16 or 17, it never occurred to me that I could have tapped it. Anyway, a frame builder later brazed on a Campy tab.

And for equal opportunity ragging, I'm not clear why we still have Italian-standard BBs. Why would you want a threaded cup that wants to unscrew itself? I have friends with Pinarellos who complain about the lack of availability of threaded BBs for some crank brands -- but I guess with the various press-in standards, most of those complaints will go away, although i still think a good, threaded BB is the way to go.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

As I said, I rationalized my way out of that scheme :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 7 May 2016 07:29:10 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>
wrote:

I suspect that as a bottom bracket is essentially a bunch of balls
rolling around in a circle that the old fashioned threaded versions
are mechanically as good as anything else.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Mark J.]

Memorable French bike parts...

I had a Huret Duo-Par derailleur on my tandem in the 80s. It had some
grave faults, but it shifted better than many other options then
available, Rube Goldberg device though it was.

Who else remembers the Huret Multito cyclometer? Ahh, the
pre-electronic days! ;)

Zefal pumps are still da bomb - or is that da bomba? And why did those
guys write a song about it?

And yes, Michelin folding clinchers (at least /after/ the Elan, IMHO).
And the VAR tire "jack" to install them. I bought several before they
seemed to go out of production.

In the mid 70's I did some temp work assembling low-end Raleighs at a
local shop. All sorts of French parts - Nervar, Simplex (low end of
their lines) etc. The fit and finish were pretty crude, sadly, though I
did lust after the Huret Jubilee derailleur on the Raleigh Competition
hanging in the window.

Then in the 80's when we went to Paris-Brest-Paris, I marveled at all
the old guys - on PBP - riding old ALL-steel French bikes (cottered
cranks) and decided if they could be that tough, there would always be a
France.

Mark J.

[Joerg]

There should be no risk with credit cards. Bike doesn't come -> contest
the charge and demand it back. Then the dealer is on the hook. Provided
your credit card issuer is a reputable one.

A friend bought three bikes there and delivery was fast. They state
what's in stock. One is a titanium MTB that seems almost indestructible.
The other two are fat bikes which ride great.

>
>> At the >$1k level I expect amenities such as disc brakes and brifters.
>>
>>
>>> My LBS has a black plastic bicycle in the front window with a price
>>> tag of about US$ 9,000 and the darned thing doesn't even have pedals.
>>> You have to pay extra to get the pedals.
>>>
>>> Think of that. Nearly ten thousand dollars out of pocket and you can't
>>> even push it out of the shop door and get on and ride the thing.
>>>
>>
>> Well, some people "need" a $3k Rolex to know that it's 10:05am right
>> now. Others like me make do with a $40 watch that is sturdy and
>> seemingly lasts forever.
>
> Unfortunately many, perhaps most, people attach a label to individuals
> at first sight. A bloke with a Timex watch, dirty tee shirt and rubber
> flip-flop sandals is usually considered a "no good down, down and
> outer" while the bloke in the three piece Brooks Brothers suit and the
> Rolex watch is a "Somebody".
>
> Unfortunate but true.
>

You just described me :-)

Except my flip-flops are leather and I don't wear a watch because the
bikes have clocks "built in". My T-shirts are in three stacks. The good
ones are for every day. When too scuffed or faded they migrate to the
middle stack which is for cycling. When almost totally in tatters they
move to stack #3 which is for when I split firewood, fix bikes and such.

[John B.]

On Mon, 09 May 2016 10:11:15 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Actually not. If he has actually got your money then it is gone. the
only question is whether you get it back or not from the credit card
company..

Years ago one of the computer magazines got ripped off for thousands
the same way. When they complained to the police, sheriff's
department, state police and FBI, none of which would help, they
investigated themselves and found that three individuals had open
three companies and were selling fictitious hard drives.

Advert in the magazine "Cheap hard drives - credit card accepted" and
as soon as they had cashed enough credit card orders they simply
walked away and started a new company.

>A friend bought three bikes there and delivery was fast. They state
>what's in stock. One is a titanium MTB that seems almost indestructible.
>The other two are fat bikes which ride great.
>

--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

No. At least not in the US. They can (and will) pull it right back out
of their merchant account if fraud is suspected.


> ... the

> only question is whether you get it back or not from the credit card
> company..
>

A good one will stand by you. Else their reputation can tank, word gets
around, client leave.

> Years ago one of the computer magazines got ripped off for thousands
> the same way. When they complained to the police, sheriff's
> department, state police and FBI, none of which would help, they
> investigated themselves and found that three individuals had open
> three companies and were selling fictitious hard drives.
>
> Advert in the magazine "Cheap hard drives - credit card accepted" and
> as soon as they had cashed enough credit card orders they simply
> walked away and started a new company.
>

The bank holding their merchant account will either have to go after
them or swallow the loss. Not the poeple who bought the hard drives.
That's key.

[jbeattie]

See e.g. https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0219-disputing-credit-card-charges

Protections are granted by FCBA and the terms of the card, which may have broader warranty-like coverage (many if not most do -- although they exclude certain products, like electronics). Might I also suggest buying products at Costco -- with a liberal return policy and doubling of factory warranties. I got a spanky new TV when the original went belly-up after one year (factory warranty) but less than two years (Costco-doubled warranty). Also consider coupons. I got a coupon for a free water bottle from Western Bikeworks! Woohoo!

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

Yup. I didn't have much in terms of disputes in my lifetime but the few
times where irregularities happened it was always solved in my favor.
Mostly the vendors fixed it because the last thing they want is to have
a grievance at the credit card company on file. Health care providers
OTOH ... don't get me started ...

> Protections are granted by FCBA and the terms of the card, which may
> have broader warranty-like coverage (many if not most do -- although
> they exclude certain products, like electronics). Might I also
> suggest buying products at Costco -- with a liberal return policy and
> doubling of factory warranties. I got a spanky new TV when the
> original went belly-up after one year (factory warranty) but less
> than two years (Costco-doubled warranty).

My card contains a warranty-doubler. I've never used it but always
wondered how they do that.


> ... Also consider coupons. I

> got a coupon for a free water bottle from Western Bikeworks!
> Woohoo!
>

My wife has coupons down to a science. Almost to the point where she
gets money back on a purchase.

My one and only bike bottle is 28oz, biggest I could find. Got it via
Amazon for $4 because it was a previous year Tour de France bottle. It
lives on my road bike and MTB. Over two years old, flew into the turf
umpteen times, with gusto, and still is not broken.

[John B.]

On Tue, 10 May 2016 07:52:42 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

What merchant account? The one that they have withdrawn nearly all the
funds from?

>
>> ... the
>> only question is whether you get it back or not from the credit card
>> company..
>>
>
>A good one will stand by you. Else their reputation can tank, word gets
>around, client leave.
>
>
>> Years ago one of the computer magazines got ripped off for thousands
>> the same way. When they complained to the police, sheriff's
>> department, state police and FBI, none of which would help, they
>> investigated themselves and found that three individuals had open
>> three companies and were selling fictitious hard drives.
>>
>> Advert in the magazine "Cheap hard drives - credit card accepted" and
>> as soon as they had cashed enough credit card orders they simply
>> walked away and started a new company.
>>
>
>The bank holding their merchant account will either have to go after
>them or swallow the loss. Not the poeple who bought the hard drives.
>That's key.

You don't understand. The fraudulent companies, as soon as they had
made sufficient "sales" closed the accounts, or drew the bulk of the
money out, and walked away.

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 10 May 2016 17:09:59 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> considered Tue, 10 May 2016 08:37:10

>Here in the UK, the card company is regarded in law as a party to the
>contract (legally, I believe that the business sells the goods to the
>CC company, which then sells them to you), so if you don't get the
>goods, the CC company have to refund you. Of course, if that happens
>they attempt to get the money back from the original vendor, but
>that's their problem, not yours.
>This does mean that they (the CC companies) do take a bit more care
>over who they will give vendor accounts to, and in turn that it's
>quite difficult to set up that kind of scam - because the CC company
>(bank, usually) takes steps to make sure that the businesses they
>trade with actually do have goods and fulfil orders.
>They also set a much higher bar for what is known as "cardholder not
>present" trading, so a company can accept cards for in-store purchases
>much more easily than they can sell the same good by mail or internet
>order.

>>
>>>A friend bought three bikes there and delivery was fast. They state
>>>what's in stock. One is a titanium MTB that seems almost indestructible.
>>>The other two are fat bikes which ride great.
>>>

This was some years ago, but the system that the magazine uncovered
was three individuals, or groups of individuals, that set up a
business in the L.A. basin. The groups then used references from the
initial business to establish credit for another business. Then used
the two businesses top establish another business.

Then one of the businesses would take one page adverts in the computer
magazine for low priced hard disks. When sufficient credit card orders
had been taken they cleaned out the bank account and literally walked
away. But in the mean time the original three businesses had been used
to establish more businesses and so on and so on.

At the time a single whole page advert in a major computer magazine
was several thousand dollars so eventually the magazine got a bit
upset and started trying to collect and no one was there.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

They will have to refund that chunk of money. Else they are committing
fraud and the credit card issuer will go after them. No matter because
you as the credit card holder will be held harmless. Provided that your
case is valid and the credit card issues is reputable.

>>
>>> ... the
>>> only question is whether you get it back or not from the credit card
>>> company..
>>>
>>
>> A good one will stand by you. Else their reputation can tank, word gets
>> around, client leave.
>>
>>
>>> Years ago one of the computer magazines got ripped off for thousands
>>> the same way. When they complained to the police, sheriff's
>>> department, state police and FBI, none of which would help, they
>>> investigated themselves and found that three individuals had open
>>> three companies and were selling fictitious hard drives.
>>>
>>> Advert in the magazine "Cheap hard drives - credit card accepted" and
>>> as soon as they had cashed enough credit card orders they simply
>>> walked away and started a new company.
>>>
>>
>> The bank holding their merchant account will either have to go after
>> them or swallow the loss. Not the poeple who bought the hard drives.
>> That's key.
>
> You don't understand. The fraudulent companies, as soon as they had
> made sufficient "sales" closed the accounts, or drew the bulk of the
> money out, and walked away.
>

That's between the credit card issuer and the merchant and will result
in criminal or civil prosecution. The customer who bought with a credit
card has nothing to do with that. He will get his money back if he has a
valid claim. At least that's how it is here. If it isn't in Thailand I'd
be careful with credit card use.

[Steve Patriquen]

One of the ways the UK (and possibly the EU) are better at protecting consumers than the USA. I know it is not acceptable to many that anything could be better outside the USA, but in the UK, if you purchase goods with a credit card, or a Visa debit card, over £100 (about $150) and they don't arrive or are not "fit for purpose" you can claim the cost back from the card issuer (who then has to deal with the seller).

Many years ago, you could hold the USA up as a champion of consumer rights, but no more. Reatail price fixing is rife, thanks to SCOTUS rulings. Look at the restrictions on US online sales (no Lawyerized bikes sold online) when in the UK, that would be illegal (although there are still ways to twist arms).

I wanted to pick up a pair of Lawyerized cycle shoes on clearance at a large Boston shop, but they could NOT ship them to my US address, I HAD to collect them in person. The deal was good enough to make the effort. Too bad it was the day of the Boston Marathon bombing... Thanks, Mike

[John B.]

On Wed, 11 May 2016 10:06:32 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

That was the point I was trying to get across. They were committing
Fraud.

>>>
>>>> ... the
>>>> only question is whether you get it back or not from the credit card
>>>> company..
>>>>
>>>
>>> A good one will stand by you. Else their reputation can tank, word gets
>>> around, client leave.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Years ago one of the computer magazines got ripped off for thousands
>>>> the same way. When they complained to the police, sheriff's
>>>> department, state police and FBI, none of which would help, they
>>>> investigated themselves and found that three individuals had open
>>>> three companies and were selling fictitious hard drives.
>>>>
>>>> Advert in the magazine "Cheap hard drives - credit card accepted" and
>>>> as soon as they had cashed enough credit card orders they simply
>>>> walked away and started a new company.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The bank holding their merchant account will either have to go after
>>> them or swallow the loss. Not the poeple who bought the hard drives.
>>> That's key.
>>
>> You don't understand. The fraudulent companies, as soon as they had
>> made sufficient "sales" closed the accounts, or drew the bulk of the
>> money out, and walked away.
>>
>
>That's between the credit card issuer and the merchant and will result
>in criminal or civil prosecution. The customer who bought with a credit
>card has nothing to do with that. He will get his money back if he has a
>valid claim. At least that's how it is here. If it isn't in Thailand I'd
>be careful with credit card use.

As I tried to explain. No one was interested in prosecuting the
fraudulent people. The Computer magazine went to the local police, the
county sheriff and finally the FBI and everyone of them found an
excuse NOT to investigate.


--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

My point was that it's not your problem. It is the credit card issuer's
problem.

You get your money back and live happily ever after. At least until the
next front tire blow-out.

And that excuse was?

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-11 16:30, Steve Patriquen wrote:
> One of the ways the UK (and possibly the EU) are better at protecting
> consumers than the USA. I know it is not acceptable to many that
> anything could be better outside the USA, but in the UK, if you
> purchase goods with a credit card, or a Visa debit card, over £100
> (about $150) and they don't arrive or are not "fit for purpose" you
> can claim the cost back from the card issuer (who then has to deal
> with the seller).
>

I don't quite see how that is much different from here. The consumer
files a grievance and then the merchant has to duke it out with the
credit card issuer.

> Many years ago, you could hold the USA up as a champion of consumer
> rights, but no more. Reatail price fixing is rife, thanks to SCOTUS
> rulings.

In the US I think there is even click-based active price jacking which I
consider mischievous. Sometimes I look at a product, look somewhere
else, back and forth, and suddenly it pops up in price. Well, we are a
free society so I simply buy at a competitor.


> ... Look at the restrictions on US online sales (no Lawyerized

> bikes sold online) when in the UK, that would be illegal (although
> there are still ways to twist arms).
>

Which restrictions?

http://bikesdirect.com/

You can order from there if you arrange freight and if payment is
through a US banking institution. They just don't want to get into the
middle of a customs skirmish or exorbitant money transfer fee disputes.

Often bike merchants line up assembly and adjustment services through
their stores and that is something they obviously can't do overseas.
Like these guys:

http://www.performancebike.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Content_10052_10551_-1_FreeShipping

> I wanted to pick up a pair of Lawyerized cycle shoes on clearance at
> a large Boston shop, but they could NOT ship them to my US address, I
> HAD to collect them in person. The deal was good enough to make the
> effort. Too bad it was the day of the Boston Marathon bombing...
> Thanks, Mike
>

What's a "lawyerized cycle shoe"? I buy most of my shoes online and they
arrive via mail or another shipping service. Wearing a pair right now.
But I don't wear cleats shoes, ever.

[...]