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Stripped #20 Torx: Extraction?

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(PeteCresswell)

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Jun 14, 2016, 3:24:13 PM6/14/16
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Rohloff hub.

Broke a disk-brake-side spoke and managed to tear up one of the #20 Torx
bolts to where nothing fits it.

https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/Misc02#6296124104219885426

LocTite, of course..... -)

First thing that comes to mind is finding a gunsmith willing to tackle
the extraction.

OTOH, I have no way of judging such a person and it seems like the wrong
person could really mess this thing up.... as in metal filings in the
innards and/or a broken-off bolt with nothing to grab on to for further
extraction efforts.

Thoughts ?
--
Pete Cresswell

jbeattie

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Jun 14, 2016, 3:55:18 PM6/14/16
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I'd drill it and use an extractor. I just did that on a crank arm pinch bolt that got stripped due to a bad 5mm hex socket. https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M1485264f8e54b7257487eab183d454d2o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300 That bolt has more meat on it than your hub bolt, but I've also done it on a cleat bolt for an SPD cleat, so it's certainly do-able by the hobbyist.

The worst thing that can happen is that you have to drill it out and use a bunch of tiny taps to clean the threads out. Have Andrew do it. He has extractors, tiny taps and a steady hand, except when he's detoxing. Make sure he does it on a Tuesday.

-- Jay Beattie.

AMuzi

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Jun 14, 2016, 4:42:32 PM6/14/16
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I would make two flats or dimples on the outside of the head
(if it protrudes at all) with a 1/8" cylindrical rotary
file. If there's a gunsmith nearby that would be a good path
I think.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Ian Field

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Jun 14, 2016, 5:15:22 PM6/14/16
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"jbeattie" <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:eaecba25-fe7f-4dc1...@googlegroups.com...
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 12:24:13 PM UTC-7, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>> Rohloff hub.
>>
>> Broke a disk-brake-side spoke and managed to tear up one of the #20 Torx
>> bolts to where nothing fits it.
>>
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/Misc02#6296124104219885426
>>
>> LocTite, of course..... -)
>>
>> First thing that comes to mind is finding a gunsmith willing to tackle
>> the extraction.
>>
>> OTOH, I have no way of judging such a person and it seems like the wrong
>> person could really mess this thing up.... as in metal filings in the
>> innards and/or a broken-off bolt with nothing to grab on to for further
>> extraction efforts.
>>
>> Thoughts ?
>
> I'd drill it and use an extractor.

That's a skilled job - slightly off center can destroy the thread - and you
get 2 bites at the cherry; once when drilling a hole for the extractor, and
again when using the extractor. With small bolts, its damn near impossible.

If the bolt head stands proud with no obstruction, a hacksaw (or junior
hacksaw) can make an adequate screwdriver slot. Otherwise a narrow cold
chisel may be the last ditch method. That obviously carries the risk of
damaging the assembly - sometimes if you strip the head of a Torx bolt,
you're just screwed!

One last resort is drilling the head off - if its holding a decent thickness
of flange, there might be enough shank standing proud for vise-grips when
you get the assembly apart.

Mark J.

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Jun 14, 2016, 6:15:44 PM6/14/16
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OK, so I'm confused by your reply. Sure, if you drill down into the
bolt's shank, everything you say sounds correct. But can't you drill a
larger, shallow dimple into the torx head, and use a larger-size
extractor to bite into the head? (Oh, and try some penetrating oil
first, because that bolt must be pretty seized to destroy a torx
fitting, no?) Or maybe just take the extractor directly to the existing
torx hole?

OR (serious question, really) - does my suggestion not work? Nearly
tried this about two weeks ago with a tiny allen bolt, then I managed to
get it out with the proper key on my "last try" before going to
implements of destruction. Turns out it wasn't anywhere near as seized
as I thought, thankfully.

Mark J.

jbeattie

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Jun 14, 2016, 6:40:34 PM6/14/16
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Drilling and extracting a M5 bolt isn't that hard, but it is fairly high consequence. Andrew probably has the best approach anyway -- grind some flats with a rotary file. With the countersinking, you're not going to get a hacksaw on it. Taking the head off might work though.

-- Jay Beattie.

AMuzi

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Jun 14, 2016, 6:49:19 PM6/14/16
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Yes, there are cases where tapping a slightly larger Torx or
allen key into the head can give enough purchase to move it.
The thread locker may resist that effort.

Slitting across the head with a hacksaw can work. The heat
of that will probably break your loctite so a flat
screwdriver could turn it out.

Making flats or dimples on the outer edges with a die
grinder and a rotary file works the same. There's localized
heat for your loctite and then the head may be grasped with
a mini vise (mole) grip and turned out. I like that better
than a flat screwdriver but either is a reasonable path.

A consultation with a gunsmith if there's one nearby is also
a good idea.

I'm less excited about center drilling a small hardened bolt
for a reverse remover (EZ Out) but the careful man might
try. Where the piece could mount nice and straight in a
drill press I'd be more in favor but a built wheel isn't
conducive to it.

jbeattie

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Jun 14, 2016, 7:00:29 PM6/14/16
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Looking at the arrangement of the holes, I take back what I said about the hacksaw. A short blade could get in there.

-- Jay Beattie.

avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 14, 2016, 7:48:00 PM6/14/16
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avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 14, 2016, 7:50:37 PM6/14/16
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avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 14, 2016, 7:53:29 PM6/14/16
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avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 14, 2016, 7:56:16 PM6/14/16
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avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 14, 2016, 8:03:14 PM6/14/16
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use a suitable drill press and jig holding the expletive deleted Rohloff who sold you one bad screw..hahahahahhaha......hey its your nickel.....hahahhahha..

then when the time comes, heat the male...if possible with a pinpoint torch n extract.

but the $$$....machine shop tellum not to drill thru the screw.

prob have a wizard impact extractor for production work....

there should be a shop specializing in small parts rehab.....more than happy to extract for $75....hahahhahha..

oh well. time to start up the tractor n goover to Chevron priming for a night ride into KSC.

gotta go during daylight iffn the Arabs are near.....

John Doe

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Jun 14, 2016, 8:12:32 PM6/14/16
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"(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote in news:q7m0mbpklg5s7klc4...@4ax.com:

> Rohloff hub.
>
> Broke a disk-brake-side spoke and managed to tear up one of the #20 Torx
> bolts to where nothing fits it.
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/Misc02#6296124104219885426
>
> LocTite, of course..... -)

Use a rotary tool to slice the head across, and use a flat head screwdriver.
Make sure the cut is deep enough so you don't strip that too.

John Doe

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Jun 14, 2016, 8:21:36 PM6/14/16
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> "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:

>> Broke a disk-brake-side spoke and managed to tear up one of the #20 Torx
>> bolts to where nothing fits it.
>>
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/Misc02#6296124104219885426

By the way... Why so many bolts?
Just curious.

Frank Krygowski

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Jun 14, 2016, 8:51:58 PM6/14/16
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My first thought as well. The overlapping countersinks should allow a
Dremel with a thin cutting wheel to give you a full width slot.

As others have mentioned, the heat from the cutting operation should
soften up the Loctite. If it didn't, I'd hit it with a soldering iron tip.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski

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Jun 14, 2016, 8:53:54 PM6/14/16
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I think they use only half of them, and the extras allow for fine tuning
the angular orientation of the part. You get to choose position within
30 degrees instead of 60 degrees.


--
- Frank Krygowski

avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 14, 2016, 9:41:21 PM6/14/16
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ace move here is fastener awareness week.

feel the torx ...then find mil spec replacements before OEM garbage sets in.

John Doe

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Jun 14, 2016, 11:44:30 PM6/14/16
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"(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:

> Rohloff hub.
>
> Broke a disk-brake-side spoke and managed to tear up one of the #20 Torx
> bolts to where nothing fits it.
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/Misc02#6296124104219885426
>
> LocTite, of course..... -)

You put Loctite/superglue in a bolthole? Given this experience, you
might want to avoid that. I use it on nuts and bolt heads, and a jillion
other things. You could put it on the outside area, the bolt head
(avoiding the center). But I wouldn't put it in a bolthole where the
bolt should be removable. It being a Torx head makes a bad situation
worse.

jbeattie

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Jun 15, 2016, 12:31:14 AM6/15/16
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I use blue Loctite on disc rotor bolts. In fact, most rotor bolts come with it pre-applied. https://www.amazon.com/Avid-Disc-Rotor-Bolt-Kit/dp/B000BR30KO
Although the dry product is more or less just thread filler. Anyway, I haven't had significant problems removing my rotors, and if I were worried, I would hit it with a heat gun before removal.

Sort of OT, but I recently Loctited some chain ring bolts. My son and I have had a recent rash of lost chainring bolts.

-- Jay Beattie.

Tosspot

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Jun 15, 2016, 1:08:51 AM6/15/16
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An impact driver and the next size up torque bit will sometimes work.



Tosspot

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Jun 15, 2016, 1:13:02 AM6/15/16
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On 14/06/16 21:24, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Sorry, going back to this. That's a Rohloff standard axle plate. Iirc,
they are flat on the other side, just tap the plat in the appropriate
direction (anti-clockwise) to loosen it.

Steve Patriquen

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Jun 15, 2016, 4:28:33 AM6/15/16
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Those little Rohloff bolts are made of a special chocolate-cheese blend that does not wear well.

I would think that - providing you can safely remove the other bolts without problem - you could use a small countersink to remove the rest of the head. These are countersink-head bolts, so when you remove the OEM2 plate, you'll have a short stub remaining, which you might be able to grab with decent ViceGrips. I would go easy on the metal removal with the countersink and pry the plate off ASAP.

As you know, these actually thread into a hole about an inch inside the hub, so an easy-out might not work (as they are so small and the seized threads are not where the Easy-out will be inserted).

If it doesn't come out, you could just leave it off (or just leave the stub) - I doubt one less will matter in use. Otherwise it looks like hub disassembly time.

These bolts are really inexpensive so I would suggest never reusing them, using very mild threadlocker (they come with a white coating) and making sure your Torx key is a high-quality tool that fits perfectly

Good luck!

John Doe

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Jun 15, 2016, 5:38:05 AM6/15/16
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jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:

> John Doe wrote:
>> "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
>>
>> > Rohloff hub. Broke a disk-brake-side spoke and managed to tear
>> > up one of the #20 Torx bolts to where nothing fits it.
>> > https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/Misc02#6296124104
>> > 219885426 LocTite, of course..... -)

>> You put Loctite/superglue in a bolthole? Given this experience, you
>> might want to avoid that. I use it on nuts and bolt heads, and a
>> jillion other things. You could put it on the outside area, the bolt
>> head (avoiding the center). But I wouldn't put it in a bolthole where
>> the bolt should be removable. It being a Torx head makes a bad
>> situation worse.
>
> I use blue Loctite on disc rotor bolts. In fact, most rotor bolts come
> with it pre-applied.

> https://www.amazon.com/Avid-Disc-Rotor-Bolt-Kit/dp/B000BR30KO

> Although the dry product is more or less just thread filler.

You mean the stuff that's pre-applied to bolts? It's probably the same
as Loctite 242.

> Anyway, I haven't had significant problems removing my rotors, and if
> I were worried, I would hit it with a heat gun before removal.

Right, just be sure not to use ordinary Loctite, that is superglue. Use
Loctite 242 or whatever special type of Loctite used for that purpose.
I've heard people use the term Loctite but didn't know they were talking
about the blue stuff used for bolts. A tiny drop of superglue (Loctite
or whatever brand) accomplishes the same thing in my experience but it
must be applied differently.

avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 15, 2016, 9:00:56 AM6/15/16
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Out sight that fastener has a stub out the other side.

Use heat.

Locktite isnot superglue tho I have used a cheap sub looking very crumbly when dry.

Lock does not dry. Lock intents with Fe and ? ions from threads n hardening poss expanding with those,ions.

Lock seals out moisture, 02, h2o. Coat of linseed over bolt top n your in.

Torx made from '70'S Tiwan/Jap cones is appropriate.

(PeteCresswell)

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Jun 15, 2016, 9:21:17 AM6/15/16
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Per jbeattie:
>'d drill it and use an extractor. I just did that on a crank arm pinch bolt that got stripped due to a bad 5mm hex socket. https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M1485264f8e54b7257487eab183d454d2o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300 That bolt has more meat on it than your hub bolt, but I've also done it on a cleat bolt for an SPD cleat, so it's certainly do-able by the hobbyist.
>
>The worst thing that can happen is that you have to drill it out and use a bunch of tiny taps to clean the threads out. Have Andrew do it. He has extractors, tiny taps and a steady hand, except when he's detoxing. Make sure he does it on a Tuesday.

Who is Andrew... or did something just zip right over my head ? -)

When you did the crank arm did you use a drill press or do it freehand ?
--
Pete Cresswell

(PeteCresswell)

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Jun 15, 2016, 9:28:03 AM6/15/16
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Per Frank Krygowski:
>I think they use only half of them, and the extras allow for fine tuning
>the angular orientation of the part. You get to choose position within
>30 degrees instead of 60 degrees.

Correctamundo.... only 5 bolts - and I suspect they screw into something
not all that tough because the torque spec is only 25 inch-pounds.
--
Pete Cresswell

(PeteCresswell)

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Jun 15, 2016, 10:05:34 AM6/15/16
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Per (PeteCresswell):
>
>Thoughts ?

Here's what worked:

- Heat

- Dremel Tool

- Flat-Blade Screwdriver

- Vise.

Held one of the free screws in my hand, applied a soldering iron to the
Torx end, counted seconds until I felt the burn.

Added 5 seconds, then applied the soldering iron to the frozen screw.

Ground the Dremel Tool's abrasive disk down to about 3/8" to minimize
impact on surrounding plate.

Cut the deepest slot I could without going into the surrounding plate.

Managed to get a bench vise around the plate.

Applied flat-blade screwdriver, and it came loose.


In retrospect:

- Steve Patriquen's advice to always use new bolts rings true - and I
will aspire to that.... and hope I don't break too many more
disk-brake-side spokes

- I suspect I could have avoided stripping the Torx head in the first
place by putting the assembly in the bench vise first thing.
Maybe next time.......
--
Pete Cresswell

AMuzi

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Jun 15, 2016, 10:11:48 AM6/15/16
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On 6/15/2016 8:21 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per jbeattie:
-snip snip-

> Who is Andrew... or did something just zip right over my head ? -)

c'est moi

Frank Krygowski

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Jun 15, 2016, 11:24:28 AM6/15/16
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On 6/15/2016 12:31 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>
>
> I use blue Loctite on disc rotor bolts. In fact, most rotor bolts come with it pre-applied. https://www.amazon.com/Avid-Disc-Rotor-Bolt-Kit/dp/B000BR30KO
> Although the dry product is more or less just thread filler. Anyway, I haven't had significant problems removing my rotors, and if I were worried, I would hit it with a heat gun before removal.
>
> Sort of OT, but I recently Loctited some chain ring bolts. My son and I have had a recent rash of lost chainring bolts.

FWIW, a tiny tube of blue Loctite is part of my seat bag kit. I don't
recall using it while on rides around home, but it's come in handy on a
couple of distant tours, for chainring bolts, a brake lever problem,
fender nuts, etc.

Perhaps those problems wouldn't have recurred without the blue magic,
but it weighs approximately nothing and seems to last forever.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski

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Jun 15, 2016, 11:32:40 AM6/15/16
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On 6/15/2016 10:05 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per (PeteCresswell):
>>
>> Thoughts ?
>
> Here's what worked:
>
> - Heat
>
> - Dremel Tool
>
> - Flat-Blade Screwdriver
>
> - Vise.
>
> Held one of the free screws in my hand, applied a soldering iron to the
> Torx end, counted seconds until I felt the burn.
>
> Added 5 seconds, then applied the soldering iron to the frozen screw.
>
> Ground the Dremel Tool's abrasive disk down to about 3/8" to minimize
> impact on surrounding plate.
>
> Cut the deepest slot I could without going into the surrounding plate.
>
> Managed to get a bench vise around the plate.
>
> Applied flat-blade screwdriver, and it came loose.

Glad it worked.


--
- Frank Krygowski

cycl...@gmail.com

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Jun 15, 2016, 11:45:02 AM6/15/16
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Frank - if the bolt is too tight for a torx, it sure isn't going to open with a screwdriver. The only answer is an EZ Out and that is questionable if he loaded the bolt with Locktite and installed it with the Locktite still wet.

However - you cut the bolt off level with the disk. There's a reason there's six bolts on there when you only need four.

cycl...@gmail.com

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Jun 15, 2016, 11:46:42 AM6/15/16
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On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 8:44:30 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
The idea is to put Locktite on the bolt and let is dry and THEN install it.

cycl...@gmail.com

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Jun 15, 2016, 11:54:55 AM6/15/16
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I should have thought of that - the heat on the bolt heated the entire area which expanded it. Then the screwdriver cooled the bolt which shrunk it slightly allowing it to come out.

AMuzi

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Jun 15, 2016, 12:20:19 PM6/15/16
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Only if you have 'forever' available!

Loctite is an anaerobic adhesive. It sets in the thread
after assembly when there's no oxygen.

"Anaerobics from Henkel Corp include threadlockers, flange
sealants, pipe sealants, and retaining products, designed
for metal-to-metal assemblies. They cure products in the
absence of air using "active" metal ions. In typical
conditions, these anaerobics fully cure products in just 24
hours."


www.henkel-adhesives.com

Frank Krygowski

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Jun 15, 2016, 12:39:18 PM6/15/16
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On 6/15/2016 11:45 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 5:51:58 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 6/14/2016 8:12 PM, John Doe wrote:
>>> "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote in news:q7m0mbpklg5s7klc4...@4ax.com:
>>>
>>>> Rohloff hub.
>>>>
>>>> Broke a disk-brake-side spoke and managed to tear up one of the #20 Torx
>>>> bolts to where nothing fits it.
>>>>
>>>> https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/Misc02#6296124104219885426
>>>>
>>>> LocTite, of course..... -)
>>>
>>> Use a rotary tool to slice the head across, and use a flat head screwdriver.
>>> Make sure the cut is deep enough so you don't strip that too.
>>
>> My first thought as well. The overlapping countersinks should allow a
>> Dremel with a thin cutting wheel to give you a full width slot.
>>
>> As others have mentioned, the heat from the cutting operation should
>> soften up the Loctite. If it didn't, I'd hit it with a soldering iron tip.
>
> Frank - if the bolt is too tight for a torx, it sure isn't going to open with a screwdriver.

Sounds like it did, though.


--
- Frank Krygowski

jbeattie

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Jun 15, 2016, 2:00:55 PM6/15/16
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Woohoo! No gunsmith required. Fuckwits do it again!

-- Jay Beattie.

Ian Field

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Jun 15, 2016, 2:17:20 PM6/15/16
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"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:njq1ld$rhs$1...@dont-email.me...
> On 6/14/2016 5:15 PM, Mark J. wrote:
>> On 6/14/2016 2:16 PM, Ian Field wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "jbeattie" <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote in message
>>> news:eaecba25-fe7f-4dc1...@googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 12:24:13 PM UTC-7,
>>>> (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>>>>> Rohloff hub.
>>>>>
>>>>> Broke a disk-brake-side spoke and managed to tear up one
>>>>> of the #20 Torx
>>>>> bolts to where nothing fits it.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/Misc02#6296124104219885426
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> LocTite, of course..... -)
>>>>>
>>>>> First thing that comes to mind is finding a gunsmith
>>>>> willing to tackle
>>>>> the extraction.
>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, I have no way of judging such a person and it
>>>>> seems like the wrong
>>>>> person could really mess this thing up.... as in metal
>>>>> filings in the
>>>>> innards and/or a broken-off bolt with nothing to grab on
>>>>> to for further
>>>>> extraction efforts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts ?
>>>>
>>>> I'd drill it and use an extractor.
>>>
>>> That's a skilled job - slightly off center can destroy the
>>> thread - and
>>> you get 2 bites at the cherry; once when drilling a hole
>>> for the
>>> extractor, and again when using the extractor. With small
>>> bolts, its
>>> damn near impossible.
>>>
>>> If the bolt head stands proud with no obstruction, a
>>> hacksaw (or junior
>>> hacksaw) can make an adequate screwdriver slot. Otherwise
>>> a narrow cold
>>> chisel may be the last ditch method. That obviously
>>> carries the risk of
>>> damaging the assembly - sometimes if you strip the head of
>>> a Torx bolt,
>>> you're just screwed!
>>>
>>> One last resort is drilling the head off - if its holding
>>> a decent
>>> thickness of flange, there might be enough shank standing
>>> proud for
>>> vise-grips when you get the assembly apart.
>>
>> OK, so I'm confused by your reply. Sure, if you drill down
>> into the bolt's shank, everything you say sounds correct.
>> But can't you drill a larger, shallow dimple into the torx
>> head, and use a larger-size extractor to bite into the
>> head? (Oh, and try some penetrating oil first, because that
>> bolt must be pretty seized to destroy a torx fitting, no?)
>> Or maybe just take the extractor directly to the existing
>> torx hole?
>>
>> OR (serious question, really) - does my suggestion not
>> work? Nearly tried this about two weeks ago with a tiny
>> allen bolt, then I managed to get it out with the proper key
>> on my "last try" before going to implements of destruction.
>> Turns out it wasn't anywhere near as seized as I thought,
>> thankfully.
>>
>> Mark J.
>
> Yes, there are cases where tapping a slightly larger Torx or allen key
> into the head can give enough purchase to move it. The thread locker may
> resist that effort.
>
> Slitting across the head with a hacksaw can work. The heat of that will
> probably break your loctite so a flat screwdriver could turn it out.
>
> Making flats or dimples on the outer edges with a die grinder and a rotary
> file works the same. There's localized heat for your loctite and then the
> head may be grasped with a mini vise (mole) grip and turned out. I like
> that better than a flat screwdriver but either is a reasonable path.

When stripping old scrap hard drives, some of them have Torx heads that
strip easy. Jumbo size sidecutters can pinch the side of the screw head well
enough to get it moving.

If you end up drilling for an extractor and that method fails (it often
does). As long as the hole isn't too far off center, Helicoil or V-coil
inserts may save the day.

Ian Field

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Jun 15, 2016, 2:23:53 PM6/15/16
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"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:njq8rc$fo8$1...@dont-email.me...
I'd go for a modeler's pencil blowtorch. You can go in with the flame tip on
the work only a few mm diameter.

Any soldering iron up to such a job probably has an iron plated bit, good
chance of damaging that wiggling it on trying to get a good thermal contact.

Ian Field

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Jun 15, 2016, 2:30:31 PM6/15/16
to


"Tosspot" <Frank...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c-idncDvpfN9f_3K...@giganews.com...
An oversize Torx bit often works on a stripped socket cap bolt, but a bigger
Torx bit in a Torx bolt will take a bit of "cold forming" before you can
apply any rotational force.

Frank Krygowski

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Jun 15, 2016, 3:01:36 PM6/15/16
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On 6/15/2016 2:25 PM, Ian Field wrote:
And yet it worked.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Ian Field

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Jun 15, 2016, 4:13:34 PM6/15/16
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"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:njs8me$t52$2...@dont-email.me...
Didn't say it wouldn't - but there's a good chance if damaging the iron
plating on the bit, then the solder alloys with the copper inside the bit
and eats it away.

Using a modeler's pencil blowtorch doesn't cost you a soldering iron bit.

Tosspot

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Jun 15, 2016, 4:20:59 PM6/15/16
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That's why I was advocating an impact driver. However, given the back
plate is flat, I would just wiggle it to break the bolt and almost
anything will work from there. Fwiw, I didn't like the way Rohloff did
that. It kind of makes sense, but I have 3 of those plates now.

Ian Field

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Jun 15, 2016, 4:46:21 PM6/15/16
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"Tosspot" <Frank...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:wNGdnaIzovQ0JfzK...@giganews.com...
> On 15/06/16 20:31, Ian Field wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Tosspot" <Frank...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:c-idncDvpfN9f_3K...@giganews.com...
>>> On 14/06/16 21:24, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>>>> Rohloff hub.
>>>>
>>>> Broke a disk-brake-side spoke and managed to tear up one of the #20
>>>> Torx
>>>> bolts to where nothing fits it.
>>>>
>>>> https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/Misc02#6296124104219885426
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LocTite, of course..... -)
>>>>
>>>> First thing that comes to mind is finding a gunsmith willing to tackle
>>>> the extraction.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, I have no way of judging such a person and it seems like the
>>>> wrong
>>>> person could really mess this thing up.... as in metal filings in the
>>>> innards and/or a broken-off bolt with nothing to grab on to for further
>>>> extraction efforts.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts ?
>>>
>>> An impact driver and the next size up torque bit will sometimes work.
>>
>> An oversize Torx bit often works on a stripped socket cap bolt, but a
>> bigger Torx bit in a Torx bolt will take a bit of "cold forming" before
>> you can apply any rotational force.
>
> That's why I was advocating an impact driver.

Dunno about the electric type impact driver, but the one you hit with a
hammer has to be held a certain way to stop it turning the bit when you hit
it.

Its just easier to stick the bit holder on an extension bar and hit that.

Anything under M5 and I just tap the bit in with the nearest pair of pliers
(I don't have a small hammer).

Lou Holtman

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Jun 15, 2016, 5:13:46 PM6/15/16
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Not loctite243, the blue one. It doesn't cure in open air.

--
Lou

Steve Patriquen

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Jun 15, 2016, 5:39:07 PM6/15/16
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On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 1:21:36 AM UTC+1, John Doe wrote:
> > "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
>
> >> Broke a disk-brake-side spoke and managed to tear up one of the #20 Torx
> >> bolts to where nothing fits it.
> >>
> >> https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/Misc02#6296124104219885426
>
> By the way... Why so many bolts?
> Just curious.

These attach the non-drive-side OEM plates (there are different ones for different setups) that restrict the axle rotating in the dropouts. Not required in some versions (like a nutted axle) but needed on QR axles.

The bolts thread in about an inch inside the hub, so there would be a fair amount of flex and potential for rotation, but there is not enough space for larger diameter bolts. So using a half-dozen or so smaller bolts spreads the load and clamps the plate evenly.

Steve Patriquen

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Jun 15, 2016, 5:41:49 PM6/15/16
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FWIW, advice from my local Rohloff expert is no additional threadlock, good quality tool used properly and early replacement if damaged

avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 15, 2016, 6:42:02 PM6/15/16
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? eees description is inaccurate or Cress powdered red lock left on by a prankster.

Eees pulling our leggo ?

will Cress buy g5 or g8 screws n redo...or is this total spoke removal ?

Tosspot

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Jun 16, 2016, 1:15:37 AM6/16/16
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On 15/06/16 23:41, Steve Patriquen wrote:
> FWIW, advice from my local Rohloff expert is no additional threadlock, good quality tool used properly and early replacement if damaged

Due to fuckwittery above and beyond the call of duty, which I won't
relate here, I wound up sending a Rohloff back to the factory for repair
and found the rates, while not cheap, where not of the eye watering
stratospheric levels I was expecting. In fact the postage was a
sizeable chunk of the final bill.


avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 16, 2016, 9:06:32 AM6/16/16
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rethinking this....as not an everyday practice....unmovable non corroded fasteners eg head bolts, a variable example fersure but seen here....

first heat the bolt not the housing powdering the locktite

in corrosion, heat the housing caws the 02, FeO2 H+ molecules jammed threads.

housing delicate use a heat gun

guess Rohloff's are corrosion free ? but the fastener was mangauled prior, no ?

was the locktite replaced ?

Ian Field

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Jun 16, 2016, 3:01:05 PM6/16/16
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"Steve Patriquen" <smp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:20d6f173-4812-49b6...@googlegroups.com...
> FWIW, advice from my local Rohloff expert is no additional threadlock,
> good quality tool used properly and early replacement if damaged

All good advice - but who ever does that............................

Certainly don't use the threadlock that needs heating to release, but the
removable types seal water out and reduce corrosion.

avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 16, 2016, 4:22:27 PM6/16/16
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discretionary use of red Loctite on small screws. holding power is related to thread surface area.

if there's a small screw holding pieces together under stress...poss a cable screw assembly for example....red lock works better than blue with higher 'yield' and does not require heat to remove...caws of the small thread area.

I dunno where the upper limit is her as the application is length and width.
uh, I assume threading I'm referring to is all fine metric. The bolts are also somewhat hardend ie not flat blade slot stove bolts.

upper here is abt 4mm x less than 6mm long. one drop.

not on 6mm screws

definitely on 440 ....1/8th .....#8 #6 one drop


here surfaces are CLEAN n DEGREASED with CHOH following thinner or brushing

Ian Field

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Jun 16, 2016, 4:40:25 PM6/16/16
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<avag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:da4a5418-2642-4115...@googlegroups.com...
There seems to be certain screw dimensions/head types that have a narrow
margin between seizing in and vibrating loose.

Hylomar Blue or Hermatite gold are gasket cements that never set - they
remain sticky so a screw doesn't have to be over tightened to stop it coming
loose.

Excellent seal against moisture/corrosion, and they don't have to be
perfectly clean for the stuff to work.

cycl...@gmail.com

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Jun 16, 2016, 5:26:52 PM6/16/16
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On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 11:23:53 AM UTC-7, Ian Field wrote:
>
> I'd go for a modeler's pencil blowtorch. You can go in with the flame tip on
> the work only a few mm diameter.
>
> Any soldering iron up to such a job probably has an iron plated bit, good
> chance of damaging that wiggling it on trying to get a good thermal contact.

The problem is that heating the bolt alone won't do a good job. Since the bolt is steel and the hub it was stuck in is aluminum you have to head the area of the threaded hub as well. It is not the heat that frees the bolt but the cooling of the bolt before the cooling of the hubs starts.

avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 16, 2016, 5:59:18 PM6/16/16
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GNAW STICKY IS never tight. with Lock one squeezes into what one wants there n then the crew stays there.

with STICKY the screw wobbles udown sideways n eventually or sooner the stiky lets the screw wooble more....

'tried traditional shellac here, but linseed holds better. Linseed sets beyond sticky but the set takes a while. several years in Michigan.

avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 16, 2016, 6:00:15 PM6/16/16
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this is Nation Gearloose Day or what ?

James

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Jun 16, 2016, 11:47:55 PM6/16/16
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Yep. Heat the whole area and selectively cool the bolt with a can of
instant freeze.

--
JS

avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 17, 2016, 7:05:52 AM6/17/16
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Heat gun n funnel

(PeteCresswell)

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Jun 17, 2016, 9:24:40 AM6/17/16
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Per Tosspot:
>Due to fuckwittery above and beyond the call of duty, which I won't
>relate here, I wound up sending a Rohloff back to the factory for repair
>and found the rates, while not cheap, where not of the eye watering
>stratospheric levels I was expecting. In fact the postage was a
>sizeable chunk of the final bill.

The price I got from the USA repair dealer was $80 for disassembly,
general overhaul, and new oil - and "Drilling Out" the stuck screw.

Shipping was going to be about $25 each way - so figure $130 if no
additional work/parts required.
--
Pete Cresswell

Sir Ridesalot

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Jun 17, 2016, 10:21:50 AM6/17/16
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I get a kick out of those who call others the "Fuckwits" when the guys like Ian can't fix a simple V-brake so it works like it's supposed to. You on the other hand were able to figure out what needed to be done and then do it thereby affecting a repair that those same name callers said you couldn't do easily. In the process you saved yourself a lot of money and time.

Good for you and cheers

avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 17, 2016, 12:04:39 PM6/17/16
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On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 9:24:40 AM UTC-4, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
REASONABLE given you bought it with $$$ .....expect the unit back in fairly new and reliable condition.

https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1218&bih=612&q=GENERAL+OVERHAUL&oq=GENERAL+OVERHAUL&gs_l=img.12..0j0i30j0i24l8.1828.8097.0.9236.16.10.0.6.1.0.464.1791.0j4j1j0j2.7.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..3.7.1567...0i5i30.GYbjiRPCnIg#tbm=isch&q=CARTOON+GENERAL+OVERHAUL

BTW you wrote drilled, he didn't.


Ian Field

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Jun 17, 2016, 1:57:54 PM6/17/16
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<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:919b0bc7-a709-417f...@googlegroups.com...
With a bolt screwed into alloy - its just kinda obvious to heat and expand
the alloy. Except for very small assemblies, a soldering iron is a pretty
silly idea.

Ian Field

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Jun 17, 2016, 2:00:07 PM6/17/16
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<avag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bfa4bfe8-cfeb-44af...@googlegroups.com...
> Heat gun n funnel

Most heat guns come with an assortment of nozzles - using anything else
could invalidate any warranty.

Tosspot

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Jun 17, 2016, 3:18:18 PM6/17/16
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That's interesting. I had a bit more work done than that, but the same
disassembly, general overhaul, and new oil. It came to around 200 USD.


Frank Krygowski

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Jun 17, 2016, 4:33:07 PM6/17/16
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I'm curious. What generated the need for overhaul?

--
- Frank Krygowski

avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 17, 2016, 8:05:35 PM6/17/16
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FUNNEL's for the freezer....duh.

the iron is a very good idea IF the process is meant to powdering red locktite.
as you put the screw in and know the screw/body is corrosion free.

(PeteCresswell)

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Jun 17, 2016, 8:08:21 PM6/17/16
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Per Tosspot:
>That's interesting. I had a bit more work done than that, but the same
>disassembly, general overhaul, and new oil. It came to around 200 USD.
>

To me that means my estimate is lacking...
--
Pete Cresswell

avag...@gmail.com

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Jun 17, 2016, 8:09:43 PM6/17/16
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Tosspot

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Jun 18, 2016, 1:57:26 AM6/18/16
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<fingers in ear> Not telling! Nanannah!

It involved a sprocket change...

Andre Jute

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Jun 24, 2016, 8:44:39 PM6/24/16
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I've been impressed with the range of technical advice offered in this thread, some of it even pertinent, quite a bit of it surprisingly good -- on the assumption that the owner of the expensive gearbox either doesn't care that it is cosmetically wrecked, that his implied warranty is endangered, or that he can afford totally to wreck an expensive component, and, of course, the overbearing assumption that everyone has a fully-equipped workshop.

As you can see, I've been less impressed by the amount of common sense shown here. For instance only one poster, in fact the most experienced in the matter of a Rohloff gearbox requiring expert rectification, even implied (by telling us that is what he did) that the best course of action was to return the component to the official service agents -- ***and let them take the responsibility***.

Follow the stops with me. You don't get any change out of a thousand dollars when you buy a Rohloff box; in fact you're likely to spend 1200-1500 of your hardearned by the time it is in a rim and installed on the bike. If you play fair with Rohloff, which means changing the oil once a year or every 5000km and not maliciously or stupidly wrecking the box, Rohloff effectively gives you a lifetime warranty against breakages. I really shouldn't have to say that this is an incredibly valuable privilege. If you start performing DIY surgery on the box, Rohloff may, perhaps will, withdraw this valuable privilege. You lot can't even claim ignorance of this fact, because I described it in full two or three times already this year.

Now let's look into the cost of preserving this valuable privilege. Is it hundreds (as you would have to spend on a Mercedes if you stripped a bolt and took it to the official agents)? No, it isn't. It is $80, of which about $20 is accounted for by the consumptibles in the oil change included in the service (which Pete would have to spend in any event), and some more for the labor involved in the oil fill, which we'll ignore because it takes only a few minutes, so the actual cost of removing the stripped torque screw, disassembling the box, cleaning out metal bits, reassembling and servicing is about $60. And for this $60 the service agent takes total responsibility for the box, which means that the implied, and proven, extended warranty will be honored. By the normal charges for maintaining topclass German engineering, $60 is peanuts. Any other method of extracting the bolt can result in the write-off of the entire $1200 or whatever this installation cost. Only returning the box to the service agent or Rolloff preserves the asset and all its important, valuable privileges.

But did we hear this? No, we didn't (except by implication from one poster who was promptly abused by the usual idiots for knowing what he speaks of before he opens his mouth). Eveyone just rushed in with advice for home halal butchery like a bunch of Muslims coming off Ramadan. In case you haven't got it yet, a goat to butcher in the gutter in front of your house costs less than a hundred buck, while a Rohloff box costs twelve times as much as a goat.

How about stopping to think just once in a while?

This isn't about you, Pete; this is about these clowns storming in without seeing the larger picture; this was just the point at which I got terminally fed up with their astigmatism.

Andre Jute
Bring back Sheldon and Jobst and Chalo

On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 8:24:13 PM UTC+1, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Rohloff hub.
>
> Broke a disk-brake-side spoke and managed to tear up one of the #20 Torx
> bolts to where nothing fits it.
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/Misc02#6296124104219885426
>
> LocTite, of course..... -)
>
> First thing that comes to mind is finding a gunsmith willing to tackle
> the extraction.
>
> OTOH, I have no way of judging such a person and it seems like the wrong
> person could really mess this thing up.... as in metal filings in the
> innards and/or a broken-off bolt with nothing to grab on to for further
> extraction efforts.
>
> Thoughts ?
> --
> Pete Cresswell
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