Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?

[Joerg]

The worn Koolstop pads are 52mm long. Would these fit Koolstop?

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ByQAAOSwLwBaf-KD/s-l1600.jpg

I am a little puzzled by the clip that gets shipped along because
Koolstop only has the set screw.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[AMuzi]

On 4/23/2018 5:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
> The worn Koolstop pads are 52mm long. Would these fit Koolstop?
>
> https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ByQAAOSwLwBaf-KD/s-l1600.jpg
>
> I am a little puzzled by the clip that gets shipped along
> because Koolstop only has the set screw.
>

Those replace this Kool Stop product:
http://www.koolstop.com/english/v_typeholder.html
inserts:
http://www.koolstop.com/english/v_type.html
http://www.koolstop.com/english/v_type2.html

If your setup does not include the little wire pins then
maybe, maybe not. What is it that you have now?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

On 2018-04-23 17:11, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/23/2018 5:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> The worn Koolstop pads are 52mm long. Would these fit Koolstop?
>>
>> https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ByQAAOSwLwBaf-KD/s-l1600.jpg
>>
>> I am a little puzzled by the clip that gets shipped along
>> because Koolstop only has the set screw.
>>
>
> Those replace this Kool Stop product:
> http://www.koolstop.com/english/v_typeholder.html
> inserts:
> http://www.koolstop.com/english/v_type.html
> http://www.koolstop.com/english/v_type2.html
>
> If your setup does not include the little wire pins then maybe, maybe
> not. What is it that you have now?
>

They look like this but with the holes in the metal body:

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.roadbikereview.com%2Fattachments%2Fcampagnolo%2F288109d1382540330-recommend-me-some-brake-pads-monoplaner-brakes-tf-br2170-1.jpg&sp=a8469b55006f9077d513353ae498d1cb

You loosen the set screw and the pad slides out the back. However, I
don't want Koolstop stuff anymore. It's expensive, the pads wear quickly
and to top it off the mounting hardware rusts fast. YGWYPF? I don't
think so.

[AMuzi]

The EVO inserts you referenced earlier are the wrong part.

You probably want these:
http://www.koolstop.com/english/dura_type.html

Product menu in that link is easy to use.

[Joerg]

Thanks. $10+ is a bit much for those but I saw them on EBay for <$8. For
mixed-mode use would you recommend dry (black) or wet (salmon)? I
usually ride in dry weather but often get caught by rain and just plow
through. In the winter when it drizzles I just ride anyhow.

[jbeattie]

It doesn't matter -- both pads work fine in wet or dry weather. Get whatever KoolStop pad they have at Sam's Town Cyclery in Shingle Springs. It's right at the end of the trail. Support your local shop. Buy some bottles while you're at it. Quit complaining about $2.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Good grief! If $2 is that important to you, your business must be failing.
Spend less time posting here, spend more time finding clients. Then support
your LBS.



- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

I don't want any more clients, want less clients, want to retire and
ride. Anyhow, after Jay's response I just ordered the black version for
dry conditions. $7.25, that's an ok price for rim brake pads. Not as low
as Clarks but with these I don't have to install and adjust the whole
thing, just loosen a set screw and swap the rubber parts.

[John B.]

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 11:04:26 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

I think the question is whether you want a cheap pad or an effective
pad. I can buy brake pads locally, actually the entire brake shoe -
pad, holder and nut to hold it on - for approximately 50 cents each,
about a dollar a wheel. They don't last long and they don't stop very
well, but they are cheap.

Or I can buy a Koolstop look alike for about 10 dollars a wheel that
do stop in wet or dry conditions and last a long time.

As somebody once said, you pays your money and you takes your choice.
(But after you make your choice don't whine about it)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

I can get KoolStop salmon pads at Western Bikeworks for $6.63 -- less that Joerg's FleaBay purchase. https://www.westernbikeworks.com/product/kool-stop-dura-2-shimano-type-brake-inserts?sg=501 I'm a revered member of the Leaders' Club!

I'd go down to the store (which is near my work), get them off the wall -- say "hey" to the guy and gals. I can really drive down the price if I get some of their free micro-roast coffee. In fact, if I bring the wife and kid and get three cups of that fine coffee, I could drive the price down to zero. They also have a beer tap, but I think they charge for that. I've gotten more than $6.63 of free advice from them -- and the head mechanic is the son of an olde tyme bike-head, so he knows all the old lore, and he builds steel frames. Priceless conversations.

If you don't support your stores, they will go away -- particularly stores in a small town like Shingle Springs. Joerg should pay the extra buck and buy local. Nobody is getting rich off his buck.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

The thing is.... how often does one change brake pads?

Admittedly I don't ride as much as I used to but even in my heyday I
don't remember that brake pads were an important factor in my bike
maintenance budget.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

On a road, no but off road can be quite quick, my CX bike ate koolstop
Salmons in 100 ish miles, the Gravel bike with cable disks trashed its
front pads within 250 miles, it has been very wet and thus gritty.

I can remember wearing pads out on Canti MTB in single ride if it was very
wet/gritty area.

Roger Merriman

[Joerg]

That is one of the reasons why I'd never buy any new bike with rim
brakes. Some roads in our area are either unpaved, gravel or connect to
a gravel road section and thus have a lot of dust on them. However, my
road bike was built in 1982 and there were no disc brakes available, at
least not in Europe.

[AMuzi]

Shimano's was around 1976 IIRC:
https://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/248919

[jbeattie]

Phil Wood 1974. http://www.philwood.com/about/txthist.php RIP Phil.

There is no need for disc brakes for dry weather road riding, even on "dusty" roads and occasional single track or urban trail. It's a solution in search of a problem. My rim brakes work fine in wet weather, but I prefer discs because of rim wear and better wet braking. I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on the weekends and find that braking is great on both.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

There were disk brakes and also drum brakes back then which is always
better than rim brakes (which I didn't really want). However, nothing
for road bike frames I was told.

Many of the heavy "behemoth style" Dutch bikes had drum brakes back
then. They lasted a long time and most of all would not show deficiency
in heavy rain as rim brakes do.

[AMuzi]

Oh, Joerg that's a silly nearly meaningless statement.

A Sturmey AB (I own and ride one myself) is dismally
inadequate without a snappy front caliper at anything beyond
opa speeds on those opafeits. They're cute and very
consistent, as you noted, but peak braking power on a 90mm
drum sucks no matter how you slice it.

[Joerg]

Nothing silly at all here. I rode those bikes on many occasions. The
brakes were powerful and for sure better than rim brakes. They had to
because we often had a pretty passenger riding along on the baggage
rack. Oh, those memories ... :-)

On some bikes the front drum brake was operated by a push rod, not a
Bowden wire like others. That was almost indestructible.

[Joerg]

On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 8:27:49 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/27/2018 9:00 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2018-04-26 15:40, Roger Merriman wrote:

[...]

>>>> I can remember wearing pads out on Canti MTB in single ride if
>>>> it was very wet/gritty area.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That is one of the reasons why I'd never buy any new bike with
>>> rim brakes. Some roads in our area are either unpaved, gravel or
>>> connect to a gravel road section and thus have a lot of dust on
>>> them. However, my road bike was built in 1982 and there were no
>>> disc brakes available, at least not in Europe.
>>>
>>
>> Shimano's was around 1976 IIRC:
>> https://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/248919
>
> Phil Wood 1974. http://www.philwood.com/about/txthist.php RIP Phil.
>
> There is no need for disc brakes for dry weather road riding, even on
> "dusty" roads and occasional single track or urban trail. It's a
> solution in search of a problem. My rim brakes work fine in wet

> weather, ...


Work fine?


> ... but I prefer discs because of rim wear and better wet
> braking.


Yet now they are worse than disc brakes? To me brakes are among the most
impoprtant parts on a vehicle. I want top performance from them, not a
"somewhat ok" performance.

Thing is, one doesn't always know if the weather turns foul during a
long ride and then I don't want to have to pussyfoot it back home
because of sub-par brakes.


> ... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on

> the weekends and find that braking is great on both.
>

Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came. Ebay
tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early today.

They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the trailing edge
inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad want to skew. Maybe I'll
grind that off.

[AMuzi]

It's the same hub. Optional cable fittings or brake rod
connector.

[AMuzi]

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

http://www.koolstop.com/english/dura_type.html

Note red arrow, bottom of product card

[Joerg]

On 2018-04-27 14:39, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/27/2018 4:10 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

>>> ... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper
>>> brakes on
>>> the weekends and find that braking is great on both.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came.
>> Ebay tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early
>> today.
>>
>> They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the
>> trailing edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad
>> want to skew. Maybe I'll grind that off.
>>
>
> It's not a bug, it's a feature.
>
> http://www.koolstop.com/english/dura_type.html
>
> Note red arrow, bottom of product card
>

Shazam. Looked on the package I just ripped open and there it is, the
red arrow. Let's see whether this plow tip really works in the rain.
Though it's pretty much over with rain for the year out here.

Thanks for the link, it's bookmarked.

[Joerg]

This was a normal mode of operation over there in the 80's:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_PK0EOWvC8YI/TTnwub7b7tI/AAAAAAAAIc0/gMQxe_F1E44/AmsterdamDuo%5B3%5D.jpg?imgmax=800

That guy's bike doesn't seem to have a front brake at all. Scary.

[jbeattie]

Pussyfoot? Really? Oddly enough, I rode rim brakes across the United States, east-to-west and north-to-south (and countless other tours, a number in the Sierra) on a fully loaded touring bike with Nuovo Record and canti rim brakes in snow, rain, hail, dark-of-night, etc., etc. and never once felt that they were inadequate to stop me. Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes in the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction loss. I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure (and I've crashed many times in the rain), although I had one close-call involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then again, I had an even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable discs. My crashes were all due to traction loss.

The fact is that well-adjusted dual-pivots or even single-pivots caliper brakes are fine in the rain except that they eat-up rims. I pussyfoot in the rain to avoid traction loss, and I give myself plenty of braking room -- with all types of brakes. Yes, you will have more immediate braking with discs and particularly hydraulic discs, but in poor traction conditions, that is not all upside. I've locked-up the rear wheel and fish-tailed far more times on my hydraulic discs than on rim brakes. Super-powerful disc brakes pose their own problems on road bikes, apart from the price of pads and being mechanically fussy (pad-lock if you depress the lever with the wheel out, disc drag).

> > ... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on
> > the weekends and find that braking is great on both.
> >
>
> Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came. Ebay
> tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early today.
>
> They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the trailing edge
> inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad want to skew. Maybe I'll
> grind that off.

No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It is exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

I have never experienced a rim brake on any bike that didn't have a
1-2sec "free fall" in heavy rain. Unless I kept the pads slightly
engaged and that is murder for a rim.

> Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes in
> the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction loss.
> I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure (and I've
> crashed many times in the rain), although I had one close-call
> involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then again, I had an
> even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable discs. My crashes were
> all due to traction loss.
>

One of my really nasty crashes happened when the front brake cable
snapped. It was almost new. That just does not happen with hydraulic
disc brakes. I had the choice of wiping out with major road rash or
chancing it into the vegetation. In either case I'd have been toast if
there had been oncoming traffic.

> The fact is that well-adjusted dual-pivots or even single-pivots
> caliper brakes are fine in the rain except that they eat-up rims. I
> pussyfoot in the rain to avoid traction loss, and I give myself
> plenty of braking room -- with all types of brakes. Yes, you will
> have more immediate braking with discs and particularly hydraulic
> discs, but in poor traction conditions, that is not all upside. I've
> locked-up the rear wheel and fish-tailed far more times on my
> hydraulic discs than on rim brakes. Super-powerful disc brakes pose
> their own problems on road bikes, apart from the price of pads and
> being mechanically fussy (pad-lock if you depress the lever with the
> wheel out, disc drag).
>

The hydraulic disk brakes on my MTB are remarkably low maintenance and
they come on as hard as I want to in any weather. Rim brakes don't.

>>> ... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on the
>>> weekends and find that braking is great on both.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came. Ebay
>> tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early today.
>>
>> They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the trailing
>> edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad want to skew.
>> Maybe I'll grind that off.
>
> No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It is
> exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance.
>

Let's see. I could almost bet that pointy tip will be worn away after a
few hundred miles.

[jbeattie]

A catastrophic failure can happen in any system. Breaking a new cable is a catastrophic failure. It shouldn't happen (it's never happened to me in maybe 300K miles of riding). You could get the same failure with defective hydraulic tube or joint, piston, pad holder, mounting bolt, etc. You could get a leak -- you could even blow through a pad set on a single ride. A giant earthquake could wipe out your hydraulic calipers!

>
> > The fact is that well-adjusted dual-pivots or even single-pivots
> > caliper brakes are fine in the rain except that they eat-up rims. I
> > pussyfoot in the rain to avoid traction loss, and I give myself
> > plenty of braking room -- with all types of brakes. Yes, you will
> > have more immediate braking with discs and particularly hydraulic
> > discs, but in poor traction conditions, that is not all upside. I've
> > locked-up the rear wheel and fish-tailed far more times on my
> > hydraulic discs than on rim brakes. Super-powerful disc brakes pose
> > their own problems on road bikes, apart from the price of pads and
> > being mechanically fussy (pad-lock if you depress the lever with the
> > wheel out, disc drag).
> >
>
> The hydraulic disk brakes on my MTB are remarkably low maintenance and
> they come on as hard as I want to in any weather. Rim brakes don't.
>
>
> >>> ... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on the
> >>> weekends and find that braking is great on both.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came. Ebay
> >> tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early today.
> >>
> >> They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the trailing
> >> edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad want to skew.
> >> Maybe I'll grind that off.
> >
> > No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It is
> > exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance.
> >
>
> Let's see. I could almost bet that pointy tip will be worn away after a
> few hundred miles.

Depends on the 100 miles, but yes, it's not going to last forever. My disc pads last about one-quarter the time of my rim brake pads.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2018-04-27 18:35, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 4:18:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-04-27 15:11, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes
>>> in the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction
>>> loss. I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure
>>> (and I've crashed many times in the rain), although I had one
>>> close-call involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then
>>> again, I had an even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable
>>> discs. My crashes were all due to traction loss.
>>>
>>
>> One of my really nasty crashes happened when the front brake cable
>> snapped. It was almost new. That just does not happen with
>> hydraulic disc brakes. I had the choice of wiping out with major
>> road rash or chancing it into the vegetation. In either case I'd
>> have been toast if there had been oncoming traffic.
>
> A catastrophic failure can happen in any system. Breaking a new
> cable is a catastrophic failure. It shouldn't happen (it's never
> happened to me in maybe 300K miles of riding).

I had it happen half a dozen times. My sister had it happen at least
twice. Two of those incidences caused accidents, a 3rd almost did
(blowing through a non 4-way downhill stop sign but nobody came). These
were all good quality cables bought at reputable bike shops, not
department store merchandise.


> ... You could get the

> same failure with defective hydraulic tube or joint, piston, pad

> holder, mounting bolt, etc. You could get a leak ...


Those are slow, you'd feel it coming. Things don't just snap.


> ... -- you could even blow through a pad set on a single ride.


That must be a long hard competition ride.


> ... A giant earthquake could wipe out your hydraulic calipers!
>

Yes, I suppose that could happen. Or a direct meteorite hit into the
left lever.

[...]

>>>>> ... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on
>>>>> the weekends and find that braking is great on both.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came.
>>>> Ebay tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early
>>>> today.
>>>>
>>>> They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the
>>>> trailing edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad
>>>> want to skew. Maybe I'll grind that off.
>>>
>>> No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It
>>> is exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance.
>>>
>>
>> Let's see. I could almost bet that pointy tip will be worn away
>> after a few hundred miles.
>
> Depends on the 100 miles, but yes, it's not going to last forever. My
> disc pads last about one-quarter the time of my rim brake pads.
>

Time to upgrade the disc brakes? Mine last about the same and that is
comparing a road environment for the rim pads to 90% trail riding on the
MTB. Dusty, mucky, wet and gravely trail riding. Sometimes when a stench
develops I have to pry "brake mousse" out of the front caliper. That
happens after the weeds shot up and have to I ride through them for
miles. Star thistle is particularly nasty. It tangles in the rotor
spider, then gets chopped and pureed at the caliper. Doesn't cause
performance issues but it can stink.

What wears really fast are organic pads. The kind bike shops sell you
for north of $15/pair. I like ceramic-based pads. You can't use cheap
rotors with those though, they'd eat them up. I use Shimano RT66 rotors.
They cost me $22 each, 8-inchers.

[jbeattie]

Something is horribly wrong. I've never snapped a new brake cable or even broken an old one. Shift cable, yes -- STI levers with the hard bends can be rough on those little cables.

Organic are terrible, but even the metalic pads don't last that long -- not nearly as long as rim brake pads. I run 160mm rotors on the commuter and 140/160mm rotors on every thing else (the hydraulic bikes). I buy name-brand and not Chinese no-name replacements.

I have a Norco Search gravel bike with hydraulics that my son was riding today, and they get drag periodically and can be very annoying. SO TECH QUESTION: what would cause periodic dragging -- and a pinging-type drag, almost like the return springs are hitting the rotor. Then it goes away, and braking is normal -- so I know the pads are not worn out and the springs are not hitting the rotor (but I will check). Piston drag? The bike is not that old, but I could bleed it. The calipers are properly centered.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Roger Merriman]

Not sure both my MTB’s get a transitory pinging occasionally, I assume it’s
the piston or spring sticking or a bit of something, either way doesn’t
noticeably drag and it clears rapidly one or two pings and it’s silent.

My Norco Search which has cable disks I don’t think does ping, but it’s
fairly new.

Like for like personally rim brakes wore quicker, in that MTB and CX, ie
off road. My older CX on mixed routes would eat rim pads in 80-150 miles,
the Search even with the really wet weather and similar riding while it
does eat pads is far longer lasting than the CX with its canti’s was.

Roger Merriman

[Mark J.]

That pointy tip also makes it easy to toe in the pads an appropriate
amount to reduce squeal/judder. Once the pads are installed, if that
"tip" wears off, it's already served one useful purpose.

-Mark J.

>

[John B.]

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 07:18:09 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

A half a dozen times? And your sister, at least twice?

It seems to me that you need to find a four leaf clover, or carry a St
Christopher medal on your bike to protect you. Or maybe a verse from
the Koran? Something anyway, as you obviously are suffering from
incredible bad luck.

In contrast to your experiences, I rode my first bicycle in about 1943
and have ridden bicycles and motorcycles and airplanes, all of which
depended on cables to control them, and have never experienced a
broken cable.

With all your cable problems I'd think that a "dead weight" cable
tester would be to your advantage. Simple to build and simple to
operate it would ensure that your cables met the necessary strength
requirements.

Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/28/2018 5:47 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 7:17:42 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-04-27 18:35, jbeattie wrote:
>>>
>>> A catastrophic failure can happen in any system. Breaking a new
>>> cable is a catastrophic failure. It shouldn't happen (it's never
>>> happened to me in maybe 300K miles of riding).
>>
>> I had it happen half a dozen times. My sister had it happen at least
>> twice. Two of those incidences caused accidents, a 3rd almost did
>> (blowing through a non 4-way downhill stop sign but nobody came). These
>> were all good quality cables bought at reputable bike shops, not
>> department store merchandise.
>
> Something is horribly wrong. I've never snapped a new brake cable or even broken an old one. Shift cable, yes -- STI levers with the hard bends can be rough on those little cables.

I do remember breaking a front brake cable once. That's in 40+ years of
avid adult cycling. Now I replace them every five years or so.

>>
>> What wears really fast are organic pads. The kind bike shops sell you
>> for north of $15/pair. I like ceramic-based pads. You can't use cheap
>> rotors with those though, they'd eat them up. I use Shimano RT66 rotors.
>> They cost me $22 each, 8-inchers.
>
> Organic are terrible, but even the metalic pads don't last that long -- not nearly as long as rim brake pads.

Again, I think it's wise to carry one spare set of pads on every disc
brake bike. This advice came from a very experienced bike tourist who
stayed with us, and who had lost all his brakes suddenly on one hilly
tour because of pad wear.

> SO TECH QUESTION: what would cause periodic dragging -- and a pinging-type drag, almost like the return springs are hitting the rotor. Then it goes away, and braking is normal -- so I know the pads are not worn out and the springs are not hitting the rotor (but I will check). Piston drag? The bike is not that old, but I could bleed it. The calipers are properly centered.

Hey, I think we just discovered another benefit of disc brakes! We've
been short on really tricky bike tech problems to solve, but discs can
provide lots of new ones for us! They might even save this discussion group!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

I and my sister were by far not the only ones over there (Germany) that
happened to.

OTOH I can remember ever breaking a shifter cable. That wouldn't be an
emergency. I always have a screw driver in my tool kit so could set it
into a suitable position.

This is the puzzler, the Chinese ones last the longest and (so far) had
the best braking performance for me. Not really no-name, they are from
the Hangzhou-Novich factory and arrived in blister packs with their logo
on them. They can't always be found on the web though so when I find
them I buy in bulk because I don't get to travel to China.

My experience with MTB tires is similar. The really low cost brands from
Thailand hold up the best, provide decent traction and most of all have
sturdier side-walls than most "name brand" stuff.

> I have a Norco Search gravel bike with hydraulics that my son was
> riding today, and they get drag periodically and can be very
> annoying. SO TECH QUESTION: what would cause periodic dragging -- and
> a pinging-type drag, almost like the return springs are hitting the
> rotor.

Return springs? There are usually only the little spreader clips and
they can't or should never hit the rotor. If they did that could mean
trouble.

> Then it goes away, and braking is normal -- so I know the pads
> are not worn out and the springs are not hitting the rotor (but I
> will check). Piston drag? The bike is not that old, but I could
> bleed it. The calipers are properly centered.
>

That is one of the occasional nuisances. My disc brakes can go tsssing
.. tsssing for tens of miles. Sometimes dirt or vegetation "mousse" gets
in there. A toothpick fixes that but the drag is so miniscule and the
noise so faint that I don't bother during a ride.

[Joerg]

For years and years we each logged 3000-6000 miles per year. Some stuff
on bikes fails a lot, other stuff doesn't. IME brake cables are among
the less reliable parts but not nearly as unreliable as bottom bracket
bearings.

> With all your cable problems I'd think that a "dead weight" cable
> tester would be to your advantage. Simple to build and simple to
> operate it would ensure that your cables met the necessary strength
> requirements.
>

It won't help. At least mine didn't fail during emergency hard-pul
situations. I have learned early on not to lock up my brakes, whether on
bikes or in cars, unless it is advantageous and even then you don't need
much force. They just ... failed, out of the blue. For example, when I
cam home from school I approached the last traffic light 1/2mi from our
house. It was red, so I applied front and read brake. Front cable
snapped and the bumper of a BMW helped me to come to a stop. The driver
got out but when he saw the cable jacket flopping around in the air he
said "Oh, yes, that happens", got back in and drove off. I guess he was
a cyclist and it seemed like he also had that happen.

[...]

[Joerg]

On 2018-04-28 16:56, Mark J. wrote:
> On 4/27/2018 3:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

>>>> ... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on
>>>> the weekends and find that braking is great on both.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came. Ebay
>>> tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early today.
>>>
>>> They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the trailing edge
>>> inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad want to skew. Maybe I'll
>>> grind that off.
>>
>> No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It is
>> exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance.
>>
>> -- Jay Beattie.
>
> That pointy tip also makes it easy to toe in the pads an appropriate
> amount to reduce squeal/judder. Once the pads are installed, if that
> "tip" wears off, it's already served one useful purpose.
>

I don't toe in my pads anymore because that causes slightly uneven wear,
meaning less miles/pair. To heck with a little squeal.

[jbeattie]

Where did your cables snap? Did the heads pull off? Did you change the housing after the failures?

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2018-04-30 08:19, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 7:22:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-04-28 18:34, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>> With all your cable problems I'd think that a "dead weight"
>>> cable tester would be to your advantage. Simple to build and
>>> simple to operate it would ensure that your cables met the
>>> necessary strength requirements.
>>>
>>
>> It won't help. At least mine didn't fail during emergency hard-pul
>> situations. I have learned early on not to lock up my brakes,
>> whether on bikes or in cars, unless it is advantageous and even
>> then you don't need much force. They just ... failed, out of the
>> blue. For example, when I cam home from school I approached the
>> last traffic light 1/2mi from our house. It was red, so I applied
>> front and read brake. Front cable snapped and the bumper of a BMW
>> helped me to come to a stop. The driver got out but when he saw the
>> cable jacket flopping around in the air he said "Oh, yes, that
>> happens", got back in and drove off. I guess he was a cyclist and
>> it seemed like he also had that happen.
>
> Where did your cables snap? Did the heads pull off?

Yes, in all cases.


> ... Did you change the housing after the failures?
>

No, though I did smooth the channels a little with fine-grit sandpaper
and polishing paste. Couldn't help much though because the heads simply
pulled out of the cables.

Besides, why do we as end users a.k.a. consumers have to correct design
mistakes on bicycles so often?

[jbeattie]

Most cable failures occur over time and involve breaking of individual strands -- which should be noticed with routine maintenance. There are housing, lever, adjuster and ferrule designs/installations that can hasten cable failure, but a catastrophic failure probably means a defective cable. IIRC, Shimano did recall some cables 10+ years ago because of ends popping off. And most of the "design" problems with other brake parts usually result in symptoms long before the failure, like brakes that are stiff, sticky, etc. These are usually symptoms of a cheap bike, too.

More curious tech problems: I currently have an Avid BB7 rear cable disc on my commuter that is in housing all the way from the lever to the caliper. I expect drag, and the return springs on the Avid brakes are not great -- better than the first generation BB7, but still not great. So, I expect cable drag from the housing and even some pad drag caused by the weak return spring.

What I didn't expect is that the brakes would self-tighten. It's the oddest thing. The brakes just tighten up, and the torque arm is fully retracted -- so its not a stuck cable. In some instances, I think it is because the rear axle has smooth faces, and the wheel can get cocked under load (and with a tight QR), but I've even had the brake drag after dropping the wheel to make sure it is straight. It's like I have a haunted rear brake caliper.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2018-04-30 13:02, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 9:24:31 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-04-30 08:19, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

>>> ... Did you change the housing after the failures?
>>>
>>
>> No, though I did smooth the channels a little with fine-grit
>> sandpaper and polishing paste. Couldn't help much though because
>> the heads simply pulled out of the cables.
>>
>> Besides, why do we as end users a.k.a. consumers have to correct
>> design mistakes on bicycles so often?
>
> Most cable failures occur over time and involve breaking of
> individual strands -- which should be noticed with routine
> maintenance. There are housing, lever, adjuster and ferrule
> designs/installations that can hasten cable failure, but a
> catastrophic failure probably means a defective cable. IIRC, Shimano
> did recall some cables 10+ years ago because of ends popping off.
> And most of the "design" problems with other brake parts usually
> result in symptoms long before the failure, like brakes that are
> stiff, sticky, etc. These are usually symptoms of a cheap bike, too.
>
> More curious tech problems: I currently have an Avid BB7 rear cable
> disc on my commuter that is in housing all the way from the lever to
> the caliper. I expect drag, and the return springs on the Avid
> brakes are not great -- better than the first generation BB7, but
> still not great. So, I expect cable drag from the housing and even
> some pad drag caused by the weak return spring.
>

What I occasionally do is let the bike rear up against a wall, propping
it all up so it won't slide back down. Then I tie a cotton chunk around
the cable where it comes out the jacket at the rear caliper and fasten
the lever slightly pulled. Now I drip some oil on at the lever and let
that run down the cable. A few drops every hour or so, whenever I happen
to be in the garage for other reasons. Eventually the cotton ball gets
oily and then I stop and clean it up. Similar with the front brake but
then I need to lay the bike. I like to keep things nicely lubed.

> What I didn't expect is that the brakes would self-tighten. It's the
> oddest thing. The brakes just tighten up, and the torque arm is
> fully retracted -- so its not a stuck cable. In some instances, I
> think it is because the rear axle has smooth faces, and the wheel can
> get cocked under load (and with a tight QR), but I've even had the
> brake drag after dropping the wheel to make sure it is straight. It's
> like I have a haunted rear brake caliper.
>

Car drum brake pads had that since a long time on some of the better
models. Decades. As the pads wore, a little "sticky cog" would be
slightly turned and that made the pads not retract as far as when they
were new. That saved a lot of frequent maintenance. I always wondered
when the bike industry would learn this but maybe the 100-year learning
curve isn't up yet :-)

At least your bike seems to have "inadvertent self-adjust".

One thing I never liked about many mechanical disc brakes is that they
only have a piston on one side. As the pads wear the rotor gets pulled
sideways more and more. They could have done a better design job.

[John B.]

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:25:22 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

I've always considered brake squeal a benefit when riding on a multi
user venue as people seem to react favorable to a loud shriek while
ignoring the faint "ding,ding, ding of the common bicycle bell.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

In Germany they call that the "anti-social" notification method: Right
before passing a pedestrian the rider briefly locks up the rear for a
loud screech.

I once came upon two girls hiking along a singletrack. At one section it
paralleled old train tracks where there is only the occasional slow and
tiny excursion train on weekends. This was a weekday and one of them
walked in the track so they could chat. I slowed down so they didn't
hear my MTB, turned my MP3 player to a track with a big Union Pacific
locomotive horn, then pushed play. GAAAAAH! The reaction was priceless.

[Ralph Barone]

Like straight pipes on a Harley. "It's a safety feature."