Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

Bottom Bracket Noise

25 views
Skip to first unread message

jbeattie

unread,
Jul 15, 2016, 12:57:52 PM7/15/16
to
Adding to my collection of bottom bracket noise that isn't from the bottom bracket: (1) fretting axle against rear dropout with inadequately tightened QR. I had this problem on my CAAD 9, but it resulted in a distinctive click or snap. On my Roubaix, it is a persistent and loud creaking. The rear disk must really flex the QR (no through axles on this model -- which I will get with my next disc bike). Both front and rear need to be checked regularly. I could die! (2) Sloppy pedal threads on Hollowtech/SPDs which need thread filler or Teflon tape. This would be a good place for thread sealant versus thread locker. (3) Loose/missing chainring bolts. I had an epidemic of missing chainring bolts on two bikes for unknown reasons. (4) Saddles/saddle rails echoing down the seat tube -- that one is easy to sort out because it goes away when you are out of the saddle. Its always nice when you can track noises to non-bearing related causes, particularly on a BB30/PF30 where the fix is more expensive and complicated than throwing in a $16-20 threaded outboard BB. I strongly support returning to a threaded format.

-- Jay Beattie.

Joerg

unread,
Jul 15, 2016, 1:16:29 PM7/15/16
to
On 2016-07-15 09:57, jbeattie wrote:
> Adding to my collection of bottom bracket noise that isn't from the
> bottom bracket: (1) fretting axle against rear dropout with
> inadequately tightened QR. I had this problem on my CAAD 9, but it
> resulted in a distinctive click or snap. On my Roubaix, it is a
> persistent and loud creaking. The rear disk must really flex the QR


What? Do you have a motorcycle disc brake on there and the girlfriend
riding along on the luggage rack? Or too many wheelies?


> (no through axles on this model -- which I will get with my next disc
> bike). Both front and rear need to be checked regularly.


QR on the front with disc is a bad design because they put the caliper
in the wrong location, behind the fork instead of in front. It won't
come off but the expensive front fork of my MTB mount is already
thoroughly worn inside the left mount because of that.


> ... I could
> die! (2) Sloppy pedal threads on Hollowtech/SPDs which need thread
> filler or Teflon tape. This would be a good place for thread sealant
> versus thread locker. (3) Loose/missing chainring bolts. I had an
> epidemic of missing chainring bolts on two bikes for unknown reasons.
> (4) Saddles/saddle rails echoing down the seat tube -- that one is
> easy to sort out because it goes away when you are out of the saddle.
> Its always nice when you can track noises to non-bearing related
> causes, particularly on a BB30/PF30 where the fix is more expensive
> and complicated than throwing in a $16-20 threaded outboard BB. I
> strongly support returning to a threaded format.
>

Both my bikes have threaded BB. What possessed bicycle designers to ever
go press-fit for a BB? I think that was as ill-conceived as press-fit
was in electronics (on large motherboards, for example).

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH

unread,
Jul 15, 2016, 2:36:03 PM7/15/16
to
tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick
tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick
tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick

tick

CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK
CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK
CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK
CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK

CLACK


rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

ERCK

______________________________________

XV7&!!!!!!ZXZX




jbeattie

unread,
Jul 15, 2016, 3:29:59 PM7/15/16
to
On Friday, July 15, 2016 at 10:16:29 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-07-15 09:57, jbeattie wrote:
> > Adding to my collection of bottom bracket noise that isn't from the
> > bottom bracket: (1) fretting axle against rear dropout with
> > inadequately tightened QR. I had this problem on my CAAD 9, but it
> > resulted in a distinctive click or snap. On my Roubaix, it is a
> > persistent and loud creaking. The rear disk must really flex the QR
>
>
> What? Do you have a motorcycle disc brake on there and the girlfriend
> riding along on the luggage rack? Or too many wheelies?

No, just a hydraulic rear disc -- and perhaps a QR that is on the shitty side and which might have used a little more adjusting when I changed a rear flat earlier this week (now that I think about it). Many of my problems are self-inflicted.

>
>
> > (no through axles on this model -- which I will get with my next disc
> > bike). Both front and rear need to be checked regularly.
>
>
> QR on the front with disc is a bad design because they put the caliper
> in the wrong location, behind the fork instead of in front. It won't
> come off but the expensive front fork of my MTB mount is already
> thoroughly worn inside the left mount because of that.

A through axle is a better design, that's for sure -- but QR works fine if it is kept tight. Moving the caliper is not the answer, and I have seen no bikes or motorcycles with front-facing calipers. The possible wheel ejection issues were appropriately addressed with through axles. You murder equipment and should have through axles, as I have said before. Horses for courses.

-- Jay Beattie.


Joerg

unread,
Jul 15, 2016, 5:47:59 PM7/15/16
to
On 2016-07-15 12:29, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, July 15, 2016 at 10:16:29 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-07-15 09:57, jbeattie wrote:
>>> Adding to my collection of bottom bracket noise that isn't from
>>> the bottom bracket: (1) fretting axle against rear dropout with
>>> inadequately tightened QR. I had this problem on my CAAD 9, but
>>> it resulted in a distinctive click or snap. On my Roubaix, it is
>>> a persistent and loud creaking. The rear disk must really flex
>>> the QR
>>
>>
>> What? Do you have a motorcycle disc brake on there and the
>> girlfriend riding along on the luggage rack? Or too many wheelies?
>
> No, just a hydraulic rear disc -- and perhaps a QR that is on the
> shitty side and which might have used a little more adjusting when I
> changed a rear flat earlier this week (now that I think about it).
> Many of my problems are self-inflicted.
>

Last time I helped a guy fix a rear flat I was surprised that I could
almost push the QR lever with one finger.

>>
>>
>>> (no through axles on this model -- which I will get with my next
>>> disc bike). Both front and rear need to be checked regularly.
>>
>>
>> QR on the front with disc is a bad design because they put the
>> caliper in the wrong location, behind the fork instead of in front.
>> It won't come off but the expensive front fork of my MTB mount is
>> already thoroughly worn inside the left mount because of that.
>
> A through axle is a better design, that's for sure -- but QR works
> fine if it is kept tight. Moving the caliper is not the answer, ...


It is. Because that pushes the axle into the fork instead of out. It
would also result in less crud on the caliper during muddy winter rides.
Sometimes it is so bad that I spritz a good dose from my water bottle
onto it to exchange the grinding noise against a "HOOOO" noise.


> ... and
> I have seen no bikes ...


With bicycles that means nothing. That industry has a long history of
doing some things wrong.


> ... or motorcycles with front-facing calipers. ...


Motorcycles don't have a QR so it's not an issue.


> ... The
> possible wheel ejection issues were appropriately addressed with
> through axles. You murder equipment and should have through axles, as
> I have said before. Horses for courses.
>

I am not a hardcore downhiller or anything close, just a regular XC
rider. Ok, faster than others around here but not twice as fast.
Considering that pretty much all XC MTB I ever saw have QR front axles
one would expect that manufacturers would figure this out.

jbeattie

unread,
Jul 16, 2016, 10:56:30 AM7/16/16
to
For most people, QRs work perfectly fine. With longer travel shocks and people riding more difficult single track, through axles have taken over.

Rear mounted calipers are superior from an engineering standpoint. Just sketch out the force vectors and you'll see why. They present and ejection risk (one that was hyped but hardly came to pass) which was addressed with more forward facing dropouts or through axles or stronger QRs and lawyer lips.

Inadequately tightened QRs allow fretting -- that's what you have. You can deal with that by getting better QRs or a fork and wheel with through axles. That will not happen because it involves actually spending some money on appropriate equipment. Yes, I know you've tried everything, but the dumb engineers who make bicycles can't get it right -- except that they have. You just refuse to buy the technology.


-- Jay Beattie




Joerg

unread,
Jul 16, 2016, 3:59:09 PM7/16/16
to
It was not addressed, just papered over. Lawyer lips are not meant to
actively hold a wheel but a last stop before the axle comes out. The
wear will continue.


> Inadequately tightened QRs allow fretting -- that's what you have.
> You can deal with that by getting better QRs or a fork and wheel with
> through axles. That will not happen because it involves actually
> spending some money on appropriate equipment. Yes, I know you've
> tried everything, but the dumb engineers who make bicycles can't get
> it right -- except that they have. You just refuse to buy the
> technology.
>

Wrong. On the advice of Andrew I have tried other brand QR, such as
Shimano. Makes not difference. Next up is kicking out the QR, buying a
longer Cro-Moly axles and using a classic non-QR setup. Then I just
carry one more wrench although with my setup flats are almost non-existent.

DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH

unread,
Jul 16, 2016, 6:04:25 PM7/16/16
to
JB....your grupo is quick release. Group riding requires ....with my observations, a quick flat stop. Never catch the group but ?

video camera time. may score points in bear country.

then sell a bike with bolt on axles ? kinda agricultural.

my trekker...has QR'S from sloth not yet trekking. Closed short of using a vice grip for closure.

will they loosen n fail ? prob not but do I worry abt this...yes.

jbeattie

unread,
Jul 16, 2016, 6:24:39 PM7/16/16
to
Yes, they are meant to save people from their failure to adequately tighten a QR.

>
> > Inadequately tightened QRs allow fretting -- that's what you have.
> > You can deal with that by getting better QRs or a fork and wheel with
> > through axles. That will not happen because it involves actually
> > spending some money on appropriate equipment. Yes, I know you've
> > tried everything, but the dumb engineers who make bicycles can't get
> > it right -- except that they have. You just refuse to buy the
> > technology.
> >
>
> Wrong. On the advice of Andrew I have tried other brand QR, such as
> Shimano. Makes not difference. Next up is kicking out the QR, buying a
> longer Cro-Moly axles and using a classic non-QR setup. Then I just
> carry one more wrench although with my setup flats are almost non-existent.

Then use a solid axle because normal does not work for you. Again, you could always spring for a through-axle fork and wheel, which is the fix for your problem. That's what I would do, but then again, I tend to take the easiest and cleanest route to a fix, which is not the cheapest and not nearly Byzantine enough for some.

-- Jay Beattie.

DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH

unread,
Jul 17, 2016, 6:59:00 AM7/17/16
to
A Wells MFG axle...oversized easing install but adding an attAchment pt..protect with a jamb nut..and nuts with floating washers on blue loctite.

Wher's the 123X!!@ wrench ....

AMuzi

unread,
Jul 17, 2016, 8:57:26 AM7/17/16
to
A steel skewer, even no-name copies, with just about any
lubrication will secure a wheel tighter than a nutted
axle[1]. Through axles are of course a different thing.

[1] barring anomalous or exotic problems.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Joerg

unread,
Jul 17, 2016, 10:01:20 AM7/17/16
to
On 2016-07-17 03:58, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> A Wells MFG axle...oversized easing install but adding an attAchment pt..protect with a jamb nut..and nuts with floating washers on blue loctite.
>
> Wher's the 123X!!@ wrench ....
>

No worries aboyut the wrench but do you have a link to that axle? Search
finds not axles under Wells MFG.

Joerg

unread,
Jul 17, 2016, 10:04:13 AM7/17/16
to
Exactly. However, that does not prevent the left side from sloshing
around and wearing down the aluminum, which is the point.

>>
>>> Inadequately tightened QRs allow fretting -- that's what you
>>> have. You can deal with that by getting better QRs or a fork and
>>> wheel with through axles. That will not happen because it
>>> involves actually spending some money on appropriate equipment.
>>> Yes, I know you've tried everything, but the dumb engineers who
>>> make bicycles can't get it right -- except that they have. You
>>> just refuse to buy the technology.
>>>
>>
>> Wrong. On the advice of Andrew I have tried other brand QR, such
>> as Shimano. Makes not difference. Next up is kicking out the QR,
>> buying a longer Cro-Moly axles and using a classic non-QR setup.
>> Then I just carry one more wrench although with my setup flats are
>> almost non-existent.
>
> Then use a solid axle because normal does not work for you. Again,
> you could always spring for a through-axle fork and wheel, which is
> the fix for your problem. That's what I would do, but then again, I
> tend to take the easiest and cleanest route to a fix, which is not
> the cheapest and not nearly Byzantine enough for some.
>

It's this simple: I am not going to throw away a $350 fork just because
some designer wasn't smart enough to see and prevent this. Getting rid
of the QR should fix that and is simple enough. Just have to find a
decent Cro-Moly axle that can take a beating.

Joerg

unread,
Jul 17, 2016, 10:13:30 AM7/17/16
to
Wouldn't help because you still only have one surface to hold it at the
left side dropout. Meaning the QR nut (which safety-conscious riders
always have on the disc side) will stay put just like in my case but the
counter nut of the cone will not. As evidenced by marring of the skewer
where the axle ends on the left. IOW the left side sloshes as much as
the skewer has play inside the axle. Which grows due to marring. A
regular non-QR axle will hold on both sides of that left dropout.
0 new messages