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Another IGH, competitor to Rohloff?
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James
Oct 21, 2016, 4:02:28 PM10/21/16
to
(PeteCresswell)
Oct 21, 2016, 8:27:45 PM10/21/16
to
Per James:
>http://www.kindernay.com/products/
As one who had 2 Rohloff hubs, I would say it sounds promising.
Price sounds comparable.
Seems to be Vaporware at present... but the specs are attractive -
especially the non-cable shifter and the portability between wheels.
--
Pete Cresswell
>http://www.kindernay.com/products/
As one who had 2 Rohloff hubs, I would say it sounds promising.
Price sounds comparable.
Seems to be Vaporware at present... but the specs are attractive -
especially the non-cable shifter and the portability between wheels.
--
Pete Cresswell
Tosspot
Oct 22, 2016, 5:25:12 AM10/22/16
to
arrangement is interesting, not least because lacing a Rohloff is a bit
of a pain as it's bloody heavy!
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
Oct 22, 2016, 9:03:28 AM10/22/16
to
(PeteCresswell)
Oct 22, 2016, 10:37:18 AM10/22/16
to
Per Tosspot:
from a mountain biker's perspective:
========================================
Pros:
- Wide shifts:
Probably a substitute for proper technique, but I can clean inclines
that I couldn't before. Hammer in to it in, say, gear 8, then jump down
to 4, then to 1 as needed.
Also, on long climbs I like to alternate in and out of the saddle which,
for me, is a 3 or 4 gear shift on each change. With the der I used to do
it a lot less frequently that I really like and in the spirit of "Gee, I
sure hope I don't miss this shift and take the saddle horn up my butt
(again...)".
Now I just snap those wide shifts without even thinking about it. Any
time, any place.- I'm always in the right gear, since shifting is
essentially trivial; seems like shifts take less than a fiftieth of a
second.
- No more rear cog problems: no taco'd cogs, no more vines/small
branches/grass wrapped around the cog/der.
- It *seems* pretty-much bombproof. Time will tell, but I was spending
more time than I cared to adjusting my der and bending a cog wheel while
riding was a PITA.
- Greatly-reduced frequency of missed shifts. "Reduced" and not "Zero"
because there is a 'gotcha' between 7 and 8 dumps you into gear 14 if
you forget and shift under load.
It pops back into the intended gear as soon as the load comes off, but
it's nothing you want to make a habit of doing. As I write this
little addendum, I cannot remember the last time that happened to me...
so, with a little experience, I'd say it becomes a non-issue.
- Ability to shift down when stopped. I think I make more than my share
of unplanned stops and I used to have to lift up the rear wheel and
rotate the cranks to get down to a starting gear.
Also, my technique sucks and probably won't get any better and it's nice
to be able approach an object and slow way, way down before negotiating
it without worrying about getting stuck in too high a gear to get over
it.
- I don't have to keep mental track of which chain ring I'm on. Sounds
trivial, but I don't have any brain cells to spare.
- Maybe not so much of a strength, but it should be mentioned somewhere
that 14 speeds are enough.
My original 44-32-22 der setup took me from 18.5 to 104.
With the Rohloff on a 44 I get 19.9 to 104.9 in nice even, uniform 13.8%
increments. That's only one less gear and, since I never used 104 it's a
wash for me.
With the 38 that I've since gone over to it's 17.2 - 90.6.
I don't get spun out in 90.6 until about 25 mph - and there's no way I
can hold that speed for very long anyhow.
I left the old 32 in the middle position just because it weighs next to
nothing and, on a big bump sometimes the chain drops (you're supposed to
have a front-der-like dingus up there to keep it from doing that ....but
I never go around to getting one) the 32 catches the chain. Also
allows shifting down to a usually-ludicrous 14.something if things get
really bad....
Cons:
- It costs an arm and a leg.
If my wife ever finds out I spent close to a grand on a rear wheel,
she'll start to doubt my sanity.
- This hub weighs a *lot*. It added 1.9 pounds to my already-heavy bike
- same rim/tube/tire/spoke gauge.
Anybody who says it only adds a pound must be using a really, *really*
heavy cog/hub/der/shifter setup. I was using SRAM 9.0 with twist
shifters.
- The installation instructions could use a re-write. I'm no rocket
scientist, and after studying them long enough I pulled it off - but it
could have been a *lot* easier.
- It's heavy. Are you ready for an 8-pound rear wheel?
- The torque arm mounting that came with it was decidedly un-German
(downright kludgy, I'd say...). Hose clamps!
Also sometime during the first hundred miles the little clevis pin that
held it all together disappeared. Wasn't a catastrophic failure because
the normal riding pressure pushes everything together.... I probably
installed the c-ring keeper wrong or something - but it seems like a
weak point. Replaced it with a marine shackle set in LocTite.
I have since discovered that there is a more elegant torque arm setup
that Rohloff calls the "SpeedBone". Uses the disk brake mount and does
not interfere with using a disk brake.
Late-Breaking News: After quite a few years, I have gone back to
the out-of-the-box setup that I called "Kludgy". It's simple,
it works, and it is more portable bike-to-bike than the SpeedBone.
- Evenly-spaced shifts: From me, this is strictly a theoretical "con",
but if somebody were in good enough shape to be riding in/having to keep
up with a pace line, they would want closer spacing in the upper gears.
It's no problem for me, bco my pathetic physical condition and riding
style (or lack thereof), but it's pretty sure tb an issue with a more
competitive rider.
- It's heavy.
- It's noisy, especially in gears 1-7. Supposedly this mitigates with
age, but it is still an issue with me at 1,000 miles.
Late breaking news: After 5,000+ miles the noise has mitigated, my
hearing has deteriorated, or I've been drinking less coffee or something
bc the noise is no longer an issue with me.
- It's definitely less efficient in gears 1-8.
There's a web site somewhere (in German) that supposedly graphs a
Rohloff against one of the Shimanos and claims no loss in most gears and
1-2% in the lower gears.
I would disagree with that web site's figures.
- Did I mention that it's heavy?
------------------------------------------------
Bottom Line:
This is definitely not for everybody and the torque arm thing bugged me
until I got the more elegant replacement...... but now I am back to
the torque arm.... so go figure on that one.
Having said that, I find that me and the Rohloff are a good match.
I've quickly gotten so used to getting any gear I want any time I want
and never having to stop and pull brush/branches out of my rear der that
I can't imagine going back.
It also appeals to the exhibitionist in me...
You, on the other hand, might hate the thing.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot: it's heavy.
========================================
--
Pete Cresswell
>as it's bloody heavy!
Here's a review I wrote a few years back
from a mountain biker's perspective:
========================================
Pros:
- Wide shifts:
Probably a substitute for proper technique, but I can clean inclines
that I couldn't before. Hammer in to it in, say, gear 8, then jump down
to 4, then to 1 as needed.
Also, on long climbs I like to alternate in and out of the saddle which,
for me, is a 3 or 4 gear shift on each change. With the der I used to do
it a lot less frequently that I really like and in the spirit of "Gee, I
sure hope I don't miss this shift and take the saddle horn up my butt
(again...)".
Now I just snap those wide shifts without even thinking about it. Any
time, any place.- I'm always in the right gear, since shifting is
essentially trivial; seems like shifts take less than a fiftieth of a
second.
- No more rear cog problems: no taco'd cogs, no more vines/small
branches/grass wrapped around the cog/der.
- It *seems* pretty-much bombproof. Time will tell, but I was spending
more time than I cared to adjusting my der and bending a cog wheel while
riding was a PITA.
- Greatly-reduced frequency of missed shifts. "Reduced" and not "Zero"
because there is a 'gotcha' between 7 and 8 dumps you into gear 14 if
you forget and shift under load.
It pops back into the intended gear as soon as the load comes off, but
it's nothing you want to make a habit of doing. As I write this
little addendum, I cannot remember the last time that happened to me...
so, with a little experience, I'd say it becomes a non-issue.
- Ability to shift down when stopped. I think I make more than my share
of unplanned stops and I used to have to lift up the rear wheel and
rotate the cranks to get down to a starting gear.
Also, my technique sucks and probably won't get any better and it's nice
to be able approach an object and slow way, way down before negotiating
it without worrying about getting stuck in too high a gear to get over
it.
- I don't have to keep mental track of which chain ring I'm on. Sounds
trivial, but I don't have any brain cells to spare.
- Maybe not so much of a strength, but it should be mentioned somewhere
that 14 speeds are enough.
My original 44-32-22 der setup took me from 18.5 to 104.
With the Rohloff on a 44 I get 19.9 to 104.9 in nice even, uniform 13.8%
increments. That's only one less gear and, since I never used 104 it's a
wash for me.
With the 38 that I've since gone over to it's 17.2 - 90.6.
I don't get spun out in 90.6 until about 25 mph - and there's no way I
can hold that speed for very long anyhow.
I left the old 32 in the middle position just because it weighs next to
nothing and, on a big bump sometimes the chain drops (you're supposed to
have a front-der-like dingus up there to keep it from doing that ....but
I never go around to getting one) the 32 catches the chain. Also
allows shifting down to a usually-ludicrous 14.something if things get
really bad....
Cons:
- It costs an arm and a leg.
If my wife ever finds out I spent close to a grand on a rear wheel,
she'll start to doubt my sanity.
- This hub weighs a *lot*. It added 1.9 pounds to my already-heavy bike
- same rim/tube/tire/spoke gauge.
Anybody who says it only adds a pound must be using a really, *really*
heavy cog/hub/der/shifter setup. I was using SRAM 9.0 with twist
shifters.
- The installation instructions could use a re-write. I'm no rocket
scientist, and after studying them long enough I pulled it off - but it
could have been a *lot* easier.
- It's heavy. Are you ready for an 8-pound rear wheel?
- The torque arm mounting that came with it was decidedly un-German
(downright kludgy, I'd say...). Hose clamps!
Also sometime during the first hundred miles the little clevis pin that
held it all together disappeared. Wasn't a catastrophic failure because
the normal riding pressure pushes everything together.... I probably
installed the c-ring keeper wrong or something - but it seems like a
weak point. Replaced it with a marine shackle set in LocTite.
I have since discovered that there is a more elegant torque arm setup
that Rohloff calls the "SpeedBone". Uses the disk brake mount and does
not interfere with using a disk brake.
Late-Breaking News: After quite a few years, I have gone back to
the out-of-the-box setup that I called "Kludgy". It's simple,
it works, and it is more portable bike-to-bike than the SpeedBone.
- Evenly-spaced shifts: From me, this is strictly a theoretical "con",
but if somebody were in good enough shape to be riding in/having to keep
up with a pace line, they would want closer spacing in the upper gears.
It's no problem for me, bco my pathetic physical condition and riding
style (or lack thereof), but it's pretty sure tb an issue with a more
competitive rider.
- It's heavy.
- It's noisy, especially in gears 1-7. Supposedly this mitigates with
age, but it is still an issue with me at 1,000 miles.
Late breaking news: After 5,000+ miles the noise has mitigated, my
hearing has deteriorated, or I've been drinking less coffee or something
bc the noise is no longer an issue with me.
- It's definitely less efficient in gears 1-8.
There's a web site somewhere (in German) that supposedly graphs a
Rohloff against one of the Shimanos and claims no loss in most gears and
1-2% in the lower gears.
I would disagree with that web site's figures.
- Did I mention that it's heavy?
------------------------------------------------
Bottom Line:
This is definitely not for everybody and the torque arm thing bugged me
until I got the more elegant replacement...... but now I am back to
the torque arm.... so go figure on that one.
Having said that, I find that me and the Rohloff are a good match.
I've quickly gotten so used to getting any gear I want any time I want
and never having to stop and pull brush/branches out of my rear der that
I can't imagine going back.
It also appeals to the exhibitionist in me...
You, on the other hand, might hate the thing.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot: it's heavy.
========================================
--
Pete Cresswell
Tosspot
Oct 22, 2016, 12:32:20 PM10/22/16
to
On 22/10/16 16:37, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Tosspot:
>> as it's bloody heavy!
<snip>
> Per Tosspot:
>> as it's bloody heavy!
> Bottom Line:
>
> This is definitely not for everybody and the torque arm thing bugged me
> until I got the more elegant replacement...... but now I am back to
> the torque arm.... so go figure on that one.
>
> Having said that, I find that me and the Rohloff are a good match.
>
> I've quickly gotten so used to getting any gear I want any time I want
> and never having to stop and pull brush/branches out of my rear der that
> I can't imagine going back.
>
> It also appeals to the exhibitionist in me...
>
> You, on the other hand, might hate the thing.
>
> Oh yeah, I almost forgot: it's heavy.
> ========================================
However, it's not just the weight, but it's all on the rear which makes
a light front end. If I was doing it all again with a healthy wankbank
I'd be tempted by this
http://pinion.eu/en/p1-18-gearbox/
With a Gates drive. Ok, it's a very specialised frame, but 18 gears
(they do a 12 etc) with the weight low and central, that would be tempting.
There is a bloke around town with one of these...at this point cost
conscious people should *NOT* click on this link...
https://www.stevensbikes.de/2016/index.php?bik_id=188&cou=IE&lang=en_US
Frank Krygowski
Oct 22, 2016, 12:54:12 PM10/22/16
to
(The P-18 Lite bike is certainly not, um, "lite.")
--
- Frank Krygowski
cycl...@gmail.com
Oct 22, 2016, 1:10:16 PM10/22/16
to
Andre Jute
Oct 22, 2016, 8:09:03 PM10/22/16
to
On Friday, October 21, 2016 at 9:02:28 PM UTC+1, James wrote:
> http://www.kindernay.com/products/
>
> --
> JS
It's significant that the Kindernay will not be available until the day after the Rohloff patents run out...
I think it will be a miracle if it is as well built as Herr Rohloff's version. A newly jigged and templated copy, with additional functions, for less than the price of the original: pull the other one. They won't have the unit numbers to recover the costs of jigs and templates and learning glitches, so the only place left is to take it out of the quality. I hope these Kindernay people understand that if they want to compete with Bernd Rohloff they must give the same service and effective lifetime guarantee to everyone: it is part of the Rohloff attraction.
I don't like the concept of hydraulics that have to be bled; that's entirely against the spirit of a hub gearbox. What's wrong with taking a license from Magura for their never-bleed permanent hydraulic cabling/fluid? The Magura system rim brake hydraulics could transfer easily. I've had a set of those on a bike now getting on for ten years, and they've not been touched in that time.
Also, I think the Porsche-designed central gearbox shown elsewhere in this thread has superceded the need for another top-end hub-gearbox.
Andre Jute
Curmudgeon says, "A little applied economics goes a long way."
PS I agree with everything the other Rohloff owners here say about it, except I don't care a damn that the box adds a few ounces to my bike over a fragile, exposed, obstreperous, high-maintenance derrailleur system. I didn't care even before I fitted a motor. It's a small price to pay for all those other advantages already well described by Pete Creswell.
> http://www.kindernay.com/products/
>
> --
> JS
It's significant that the Kindernay will not be available until the day after the Rohloff patents run out...
I think it will be a miracle if it is as well built as Herr Rohloff's version. A newly jigged and templated copy, with additional functions, for less than the price of the original: pull the other one. They won't have the unit numbers to recover the costs of jigs and templates and learning glitches, so the only place left is to take it out of the quality. I hope these Kindernay people understand that if they want to compete with Bernd Rohloff they must give the same service and effective lifetime guarantee to everyone: it is part of the Rohloff attraction.
I don't like the concept of hydraulics that have to be bled; that's entirely against the spirit of a hub gearbox. What's wrong with taking a license from Magura for their never-bleed permanent hydraulic cabling/fluid? The Magura system rim brake hydraulics could transfer easily. I've had a set of those on a bike now getting on for ten years, and they've not been touched in that time.
Also, I think the Porsche-designed central gearbox shown elsewhere in this thread has superceded the need for another top-end hub-gearbox.
Andre Jute
Curmudgeon says, "A little applied economics goes a long way."
PS I agree with everything the other Rohloff owners here say about it, except I don't care a damn that the box adds a few ounces to my bike over a fragile, exposed, obstreperous, high-maintenance derrailleur system. I didn't care even before I fitted a motor. It's a small price to pay for all those other advantages already well described by Pete Creswell.
(PeteCresswell)
Oct 23, 2016, 10:40:09 AM10/23/16
to
Per Andre Jute:
least in the USA.
Early in the game I had a leaky oil seal, called "Thomas" in the USA,
and got it fixed under warranty with no problem.
Few months ago, I looked into having somebody check out one of my hubs'
shifting weirdnesses and the only avenue I could find was sending the
hub along with a significant amount of money to these guys:
http://www.cyclemonkey.com/rohloff-speedhub.shtml
--
Pete Cresswell
> effective lifetime guarantee to everyone: it is part of the Rohloff attraction.
It looks to me like the effective lifetime guarantee is history - at
least in the USA.
Early in the game I had a leaky oil seal, called "Thomas" in the USA,
and got it fixed under warranty with no problem.
Few months ago, I looked into having somebody check out one of my hubs'
shifting weirdnesses and the only avenue I could find was sending the
hub along with a significant amount of money to these guys:
http://www.cyclemonkey.com/rohloff-speedhub.shtml
--
Pete Cresswell
Joerg
Oct 23, 2016, 10:59:17 AM10/23/16
to
On 2016-10-21 17:27, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per James:
>> http://www.kindernay.com/products/
>
> As one who had 2 Rohloff hubs, I would say it sounds promising.
>
> Price sounds comparable.
>
For beta. They list seems to be NOK 15000 which would AFAIK be around
> Per James:
>> http://www.kindernay.com/products/
>
> As one who had 2 Rohloff hubs, I would say it sounds promising.
>
> Price sounds comparable.
>
$1800. That would be a tad much. I got a whole MTB for that kind of
money, a decent one with full suspension.
> Seems to be Vaporware at present...
customers:
http://www.kindernay.com/product/2017-kindernay-xiv-og-beta-program-kun-norske-kunder/
Time to find the families of the old Scandinavian forefathers :-)
> ... but the specs are attractive -
> especially the non-cable shifter and the portability between wheels.
>
grams, it’s the lightest full-range 14-speed gear hub on the market" do
not instill much confidence in me. So far I've broken just about any
lightweight stuff.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
(PeteCresswell)
Oct 23, 2016, 12:07:23 PM10/23/16
to
Per Joerg:
That has been my experience too (220#).
--
Pete Cresswell
>So far I've broken just about any
>lightweight stuff.
The words of an engineer I used to windsurf with: "Everything breaks."
>lightweight stuff.
That has been my experience too (220#).
--
Pete Cresswell
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
Oct 23, 2016, 1:01:26 PM10/23/16
to
xcusah ME BUTBUTBUT are yawl shifting 1234 to get to 5 or is the shift set and go 1-5 on click ?
no AJ, usually works the opposite.
industrial spies A-Z, time to fool with small projects without manufacturing pressures, different alloys, plethora ....
tho there are 2 Rohloff's
https://www.google.com/#q=rohloff+patents
no AJ, usually works the opposite.
industrial spies A-Z, time to fool with small projects without manufacturing pressures, different alloys, plethora ....
tho there are 2 Rohloff's
https://www.google.com/#q=rohloff+patents
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
Oct 23, 2016, 1:10:47 PM10/23/16
to
https://www.google.com/#q=dollar+norwegian+krone
yeah I understand the concept ....and my bag of Deores at $9 each
https://www.google.com/#q=average+vacation+cost+in+micronesia
Andre Jute
Oct 23, 2016, 5:24:26 PM10/23/16
to
On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 3:40:09 PM UTC+1, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Andre Jute:
> > effective lifetime guarantee to everyone: it is part of the Rohloff attraction.
>
> It looks to me like the effective lifetime guarantee is history - at
> least in the USA.
Ouch.
> Per Andre Jute:
> > effective lifetime guarantee to everyone: it is part of the Rohloff attraction.
>
> It looks to me like the effective lifetime guarantee is history - at
> least in the USA.
The Rolloff is a fabulous piece of engineering, but for that kind of money it needs a USP more easily understood than indestructible internals, and the virtual lifetime guarantee was the most dramatic of those additional unique selling points.
Andre Jute
My guru of applied economics was Kees Hogenbirk-Wijnberger
Andre Jute
Oct 23, 2016, 5:32:54 PM10/23/16
to
On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 6:01:26 PM UTC+1, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> xcusah ME BUTBUTBUT are yawl shifting 1234 to get to 5 or is the shift set and go 1-5 on click ?
Nope. You just twist the single grip that switches both up and down and the box clicks through all those gears instantly, one at a time, and comes to rest on gear you want, regardless of whether the bike is moving or standing still, or whether you're pedalling or not. It's magic the first few times you do it, then it becomes an expectation which leads to disappointment when you get on a derailleur bike. It's like climbing out of a Turbo Bentley to drive some wretched little British "sports" car.
> xcusah ME BUTBUTBUT are yawl shifting 1234 to get to 5 or is the shift set and go 1-5 on click ?
> no AJ, usually works the opposite.
(sgnd)
Exasperated
Ruislip
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
Oct 23, 2016, 5:51:38 PM10/23/16
to
17 years is long time in metallurgy ...wonder what weight reduction n strength/wear percentage upgrades exist ?
but here we have what ? The tribal whaling society...remember the 544/122 ...
spending noveau oil money on a family machine shop.
the Barons didnah give capital to a DNQ
right ?
click whir click ? amazing.
a long winter for testing.
pass the blubber.
Andre Jute
Oct 23, 2016, 9:28:00 PM10/23/16
to
And that cage would be constant cleaning job.
Andre Jute
Andre Jute
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
Oct 24, 2016, 9:28:11 AM10/24/16
to
On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 9:28:00 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
> And that cage would be constant cleaning job.
>
> Andre Jute
if the seals are not French ...
> And that cage would be constant cleaning job.
>
> Andre Jute
did Rohloff get a pre intro shipment from Russia?
Joerg
Oct 24, 2016, 1:31:21 PM10/24/16
to
when I became more hardcore my weight crept up again by 12lbs. Without
any noticeable fat. Then I realized it went into added leg muscle mass.
Compounding the "everything breaks" effect is the fact that I nearly
always carry a load with my bikes. To the point were I'll have to shore
up the luggage rack on my full-suspension MTB which is not an easy task.
James
Oct 24, 2016, 5:00:34 PM10/24/16
to
On 24/10/16 12:27, Andre Jute wrote:
> And that cage would be constant cleaning job.
>
Sounds a bit like sour grapes. I've not found hubs to get terribly
> And that cage would be constant cleaning job.
>
dirty, nor need regular cleaning.
--
JS
James
Oct 24, 2016, 5:08:02 PM10/24/16
to
On 25/10/16 04:31, Joerg wrote:
> To the point were I'll have to shore
> up the luggage rack on my full-suspension MTB which is not an easy task.
>
I built a steel front rack at secondary school, age 14. It carried
> To the point were I'll have to shore
> up the luggage rack on my full-suspension MTB which is not an easy task.
>
front panniers on several cycle touring camping holidays, over some
gravel roads on a regular steel road bike. It didn't break. It was
relatively easy to make.
Just saying.
--
JS
Sir Ridesalot
Oct 24, 2016, 5:14:54 PM10/24/16
to
Cheers
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
Oct 24, 2016, 6:27:46 PM10/24/16
to
immediately available for tossing a few rocks.
former cage problems are now resolved.
? internal gear hubs doahn weep oil ?
seal is real !
goo.gl/FhUUtK *
Joerg
Oct 24, 2016, 6:33:20 PM10/24/16
to
On 2016-10-24 14:14, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 5:08:02 PM UTC-4, James wrote:
>> On 25/10/16 04:31, Joerg wrote:
>>> To the point were I'll have to shore up the luggage rack on my
>>> full-suspension MTB which is not an easy task.
>>>
>>
>> I built a steel front rack at secondary school, age 14. It
>> carried front panniers on several cycle touring camping holidays,
>> over some gravel roads on a regular steel road bike. It didn't
>> break. It was relatively easy to make.
>>
>> Just saying.
>>
Try that on a bike like mine:
> On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 5:08:02 PM UTC-4, James wrote:
>> On 25/10/16 04:31, Joerg wrote:
>>> To the point were I'll have to shore up the luggage rack on my
>>> full-suspension MTB which is not an easy task.
>>>
>>
>> I built a steel front rack at secondary school, age 14. It
>> carried front panniers on several cycle touring camping holidays,
>> over some gravel roads on a regular steel road bike. It didn't
>> break. It was relatively easy to make.
>>
>> Just saying.
>>
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy3.JPG
>> -- JS
>
> You're talking to Joerg whom nothing works for unless there's some
> major kludging done to it to make it as robust as a car or motorcycle
> part.
>
tool and die maker. Now I'll have to reduce the battery (gray box) to
half the width because else the new diagonal struts to the rear part of
the luggage rack won't clear it.
It's not that easy since there's hardly any space on full suspension
MTB. But it'll be done. And yeah, it will be as robust as on a dirt bike
just like the electric stuff is right now. And no, you can't buy it like
that because it's not a motorcycle.
Sir Ridesalot
Oct 24, 2016, 6:44:27 PM10/24/16
to
Cheers
Joerg
Oct 24, 2016, 6:54:07 PM10/24/16
to
I ride a HT on a gnarly trail I'll pay for it the days afterwards.
What I mean is real trails. This kind and this speed, sometimes with
machine parts strapped to the luggage rack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5cjAW_nrl4
> It really seems strange to me that you have so many problems with
> absolutely everything/anything you use bicycling related.
>
bike industry for excellent suspensions. I've ridden my MTB on bush
roads that I used to drive my SUV across. In the SUV everything went
flying while the MTB glides across like a Lincoln. Except the suspension
parts on MTBs don't last long.
John B.
Oct 24, 2016, 9:14:23 PM10/24/16
to
40 mph as Joerg has claimed to "usually" do.
Nor, I suspect, do you wear the blue skin suit with the big "S" on the
chest and have a red cape.
--
cheers,
John B.
Sir Ridesalot
Oct 24, 2016, 11:04:26 PM10/24/16
to
Cheers
Frank Krygowski
Oct 25, 2016, 12:30:51 PM10/25/16
to
On 10/24/2016 6:54 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>
> What I mean is real trails. This kind and this speed, sometimes with
> machine parts strapped to the luggage rack:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5cjAW_nrl4
:-) Joerg is now back to "I'm so fast!" mode. He regularly switches
>
>
> What I mean is real trails. This kind and this speed, sometimes with
> machine parts strapped to the luggage rack:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5cjAW_nrl4
modes (to "I never said I was fast") depending on the argument of the
minute!
--
- Frank Krygowski
Andre Jute
Oct 25, 2016, 2:02:22 PM10/25/16
to
For me, one of the major selling points of any hub gearbox is the reduction of maintenance to near zero when compared with a derailleur and a cluster of open gears.
***
In any event you're wrong about my intentions. I don't lust after a Kindermay box, and if I did, I'd just buy one, and if it were to prove unsuitable pass it on to an obsessed novelty freak.
In fact, in a time when the Pinion bottom bracket gearbox has made new hub gearboxes rather surplus to requirements, I'm one of the few people who might be in the market for a hub gearbox, Rohloff or otherwise, because my bottom bracket is already fully populated by a riotously successful central electric motor. But Kindermay have made the same mistake Herr Rohloff made in the beginning, designing a box for, and marketing it for, mud pluggers. The Kindermay's cage/interchangeabilitiy may be aimed at mudpluggers or roadies who need a winter training box, but why should a tourer need to swap a wheel between bikes? Far from finding that cage an attraction, it is enough to put me off the Kindermay as the sort of careless design/lack of marketing nous/solution looking for a problem that the sort of engineers I never get along with perpetrate. In the case of a bicycle component, even though I'm not a weight weenie, I've rubbed shoulders with enough weight weenies to be also sensitive to the fact that the cage is probably indicative of carelessness with weight elsewhere in the design. This is a double whammy: weight put on uselessly in one part of the box must be at least partially saved elsewhere, and then starts interfering with reliability.
Apologies for bringing logic into the RBT Temple of Bicycling.
Andre Jute
I adore bare bones designs for a rational reason, not because I'm a Bauhaus hypocrite
Joerg
Oct 25, 2016, 4:05:37 PM10/25/16
to
lower back in good health but you might want to realize that a large
part of the population is not.
Joerg
Oct 25, 2016, 4:08:30 PM10/25/16
to
trail, at least for local riders.
I know that several people in this newsgroup are not able to distinguish
between max speed and average speed. Hint: For obvious reasons equipment
must be designed and built for max speed.
(PeteCresswell)
Oct 25, 2016, 5:10:42 PM10/25/16
to
Per James:
the only thing I can come up with is maybe a slight wipe around the oil
hole before changing the oil.
To me, nastier is better: doesn't attract the ones who are drawn to
bright, shiny things. Also, one can think of a nice thick layer of
dirt as physical protection.... -)
The most gratifying comment I have gotten on my muy expensivo titanium
full-sus bike was from my-son-in-law-the-framer-who-knows-equipment:
"Man, that thing looks beat to *shit*!".
--
Pete Cresswell
> I've not found hubs to get terribly
>dirty, nor need regular cleaning.
I'm trying to think of a reason I would clean one of my Rohloff hubs and
>dirty, nor need regular cleaning.
the only thing I can come up with is maybe a slight wipe around the oil
hole before changing the oil.
To me, nastier is better: doesn't attract the ones who are drawn to
bright, shiny things. Also, one can think of a nice thick layer of
dirt as physical protection.... -)
The most gratifying comment I have gotten on my muy expensivo titanium
full-sus bike was from my-son-in-law-the-framer-who-knows-equipment:
"Man, that thing looks beat to *shit*!".
--
Pete Cresswell
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
Oct 25, 2016, 6:52:14 PM10/25/16
to
I'm cheep. I doahn switch wheels but I do switch tires for surfaces.
the hydraulics review as 'tactile,' push paddle gizmo shifts wheeee 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 uh 10.......
everything s 'tactile' this keyboard feels like ......
my garmin 78 is frustrating butbutbut I'm adapting.
buy one n report back with a comparison.
go for something publishable
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
Oct 25, 2016, 6:53:40 PM10/25/16
to
this is foolish
Joerg
Oct 25, 2016, 7:12:08 PM10/25/16
to
coworker's bike suffered a frame break at top speed on a German
autobahn. He survived by a hair and only because a car driver behind him
was also a motorcyclist and saw it coming. The rumors back then were
that those bikes weren't really "meant" to be used at top speed for more
than a few seconds.
If this is truly your attitude please do not perform any engineering
services such as product design.
John B.
Oct 25, 2016, 8:02:17 PM10/25/16
to
On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 17:10:35 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid>
wrote:
>Per James:
>> I've not found hubs to get terribly
>>dirty, nor need regular cleaning.
>
>I'm trying to think of a reason I would clean one of my Rohloff hubs and
>the only thing I can come up with is maybe a slight wipe around the oil
>hole before changing the oil.
>
>To me, nastier is better: doesn't attract the ones who are drawn to
>bright, shiny things. Also, one can think of a nice thick layer of
>dirt as physical protection.... -)
>
Can one assume then that you bath regularly. On an annual basis?
--
cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>Per James:
>> I've not found hubs to get terribly
>>dirty, nor need regular cleaning.
>
>I'm trying to think of a reason I would clean one of my Rohloff hubs and
>the only thing I can come up with is maybe a slight wipe around the oil
>hole before changing the oil.
>
>To me, nastier is better: doesn't attract the ones who are drawn to
>bright, shiny things. Also, one can think of a nice thick layer of
>dirt as physical protection.... -)
>
--
cheers,
John B.
Sir Ridesalot
Oct 25, 2016, 10:31:45 PM10/25/16
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On Tuesday, October 25, 2016 at 4:05:37 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-10-24 20:04, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Snipped
> On 2016-10-24 20:04, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > No, I rode and ride all that on a fully rigid MTB with 26 x 2.125"
> > tires and 40+ pounds o f gear for my extended back country tours.
> >
>
> If that is on similar trails then be happy that you are blessed with a
> lower back in good health but you might want to realize that a large
> part of the population is not.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
Oh good grief! Now you're capable of riding trails that bust bikes on a regular basis, you're able to ride them at competition speeds, you're able to carry machine parts on your bike whilst doing so and you have a bad back! Why the hell aren't you riding for some professional team?
> > tires and 40+ pounds o f gear for my extended back country tours.
> >
>
> If that is on similar trails then be happy that you are blessed with a
> lower back in good health but you might want to realize that a large
> part of the population is not.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
Cheers
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
Oct 25, 2016, 11:32:28 PM10/25/16
to
This is a touring bicycle
This is a sports touring bicycle
This is a trail bike
This motorcycle is prepared to attempt a N-S PanAmerican highway trip
This is a Porsche America, a club racer use able on the street.
This is a Corvette street club Racer...it costs $130000
Racing cars are usually completely rebuilt fir each race. Generally, racing cars are not continuously run at top speeds for an event's complete duration.
Chutzpah dies not reflect teality.
This is a sports touring bicycle
This is a trail bike
This motorcycle is prepared to attempt a N-S PanAmerican highway trip
This is a Porsche America, a club racer use able on the street.
This is a Corvette street club Racer...it costs $130000
Racing cars are usually completely rebuilt fir each race. Generally, racing cars are not continuously run at top speeds for an event's complete duration.
Chutzpah dies not reflect teality.
Joerg
Oct 26, 2016, 10:31:33 AM10/26/16
to
to have lower back problems at some point in life. Like myself the MTB
riders among them then switch from non-sus or HT to full-sus. It's
simple. And yes, they bust bikes.
> ... Why the hell aren't you riding for some professional team?
>
1. I am not as good and as daring as people like my LBS owner who
occasionally rides in MTB races.
2. Sports races never enticed me much even while I was participating in
them as a youngster. Back then I only did it for the team spirit.
3. I am now too friggin old for that.
4. My preference is riding for fun, to get from A to B or to haul stuff
from A to B.
Andre Jute
Oct 26, 2016, 5:35:52 PM10/26/16
to
On Tuesday, October 25, 2016 at 10:10:42 PM UTC+1, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per James:
> > I've not found hubs to get terribly
> >dirty, nor need regular cleaning.
>
> I'm trying to think of a reason I would clean one of my Rohloff hubs and
> the only thing I can come up with is maybe a slight wipe around the oil
> hole before changing the oil.
Utopia supplied in their substantial "welcome kit" (a box full of goodies including an expensive pump, a complete toolkit, cleaning gear and so on, more than a hundred Euro's worth) two roughish velcro-like strips. When I asked what these were for, I was told that I put them with the bike when I send it for its annual service so that the mechanic can use them to clean the hub before changing the oil; apparently after that use they are washed and supposed to last for ten years or so, the bike being guaranteed for ten years. I've never used them, as the hub has never had anything more than a light film of dust and a litte "misted" oil on it, which wipes off with a swipe of a piece of kitchen roll when I change the oil.
> Per James:
> > I've not found hubs to get terribly
> >dirty, nor need regular cleaning.
>
> I'm trying to think of a reason I would clean one of my Rohloff hubs and
> the only thing I can come up with is maybe a slight wipe around the oil
> hole before changing the oil.
But I've seen some photographs of Rohloff boxes used offroad that were absolutely encrusted in mud, a power wash job.
Andre Jute
Fastidious but not obsessed
(PeteCresswell)
Oct 27, 2016, 2:19:28 PM10/27/16
to
Per John B.:
Now I'm down to only one or two..... mostly one.
Somewhere, I heard somebody say "I take a bath twice a year - whether I
need it or not."
--
Pete Cresswell
>Can one assume then that you bath regularly. On an annual basis?
At one point in my life I was taking 6-8 showers a day.
Now I'm down to only one or two..... mostly one.
Somewhere, I heard somebody say "I take a bath twice a year - whether I
need it or not."
--
Pete Cresswell
Lou Holtman
Oct 27, 2016, 3:06:36 PM10/27/16
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http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NgK0cdGYRSA/Upjd6LMtkHI/AAAAAAAAE2U/R6Qzx4QVtqgJzjCa-T4GjTJhHBn_IeVtQCHM/s2048-no/IMAGE_45.jpg
--
Lou
Frank Miles
Oct 27, 2016, 3:33:15 PM10/27/16
to
Joerg
Oct 27, 2016, 3:51:26 PM10/27/16
to
coaster brakes.
Maybe it's one of those white-knuckle bikes :-)
Andre Jute
Oct 27, 2016, 4:07:51 PM10/27/16
to
On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 8:06:36 PM UTC+1, Lou Holtman wrote:
That's a very good advertisement -- for the benefits of the EXT gear fitment, which does away with the bare cable.
Andre Jute
Andre Jute
Lou Holtman
Oct 27, 2016, 4:18:46 PM10/27/16
to
--
Lou
Sir Ridesalot
Oct 27, 2016, 4:20:13 PM10/27/16
to
"Once a year he bathed both body and soul
How the lake ever stood it the Lord only knows
and He ain't telling".
Cheers
Joerg
Oct 27, 2016, 4:24:41 PM10/27/16
to
traffic light turns red and the brake cable snaps? A big life insurance
policy?
Lou Holtman
Oct 27, 2016, 4:37:49 PM10/27/16
to
shape.
Only hit the brake if you can't steer anymore in an emergency. The rest is
statistics and risk management.
--
Lou
AMuzi
Oct 27, 2016, 4:53:22 PM10/27/16
to
a front, which is sufficient.
I've never had a cable fail on the road on any bike ever. Is
it possible? Sure just highly unlikely. YMMV
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Joerg
Oct 27, 2016, 5:10:21 PM10/27/16
to
one as a teenager ended up with a crunch into the back of a BMW 2000.
The driver was very gracious and didn't make me pay for scratches after
he saw the reason. He said it had happened to him as well.
The one about 10 years later was in the Netherlands, on the only "real"
hill there is in the country. Coming down from Belgium I was in a hurry
and took the curves a bit zippy where you need both brakes. The front
cable snapped off and I had the choice of either laying the bike and
ending up with major road rash or take a chance and involuntarily leave
the road, hoping there is no wall hidden in the vegetation. I picked #2.
Needless to say there was a wall. Pretzeled the bike but my now airborne
body cleared the top of the wall. Luckily I had just learned how to do
proper rolling in a sports club. Other than some serious leg scrapes
from the wall I had nothing.
Lou Holtman
Oct 27, 2016, 5:35:03 PM10/27/16
to
brake, you better not do that.
--
Lou
Joerg
Oct 27, 2016, 6:11:19 PM10/27/16
to
or a jury would not look favorably upon someone who crashed while riding
such an ill-equipped bike.
Frank Krygowski
Oct 27, 2016, 6:50:30 PM10/27/16
to
My rationale is that if the rear skids, I can slide sideways a bit but
recover. If the front skids, I'm probably going down.
> I've never had a cable fail on the road on any bike ever. Is it
> possible? Sure just highly unlikely. YMMV
helping with some bike safety videos - really, short Public Service
Announcements for both cyclists and motorists. They were well funded by
a local lawyer, they ran during prime time (unlike most PSAs) and they
involved a professional film crew. (I did most of the scripts, chose
most of the on-road situations, and did some on-camera work.)
Anyway, they brought in some good-looking models to ride the bikes
through the on-road situations, but they didn't bring bikes! So I
loaned them my utility bike.
Just before the scene demonstrating a proper left turn, the guy riding
my bike came up to me and showed me that the front brake wasn't working.
The cable had snapped at the brake lever end.
Needless to say, I was embarrassed. And astonished.
--
- Frank Krygowski
John B.
Oct 27, 2016, 8:14:23 PM10/27/16
to
On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 14:19:20 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid>
wrote:
Many years ago I was engaged in negotiations with a young lady that
would have been referred to in years gone by as a "sporting Lady"
about setting up house keeping and one of the questions she asked me
was, "How many baths do you take every day?" Being, I thought, a clean
young American boy, I replied, "well at least one, how many do you
take?" She replied, "at least four."
I discovered that "taking a bath" in the hinterlands of Thailand, in
those days, was more a matter of heat control rather than an exercise
in cleanliness. All hot and sweaty? Take a bath :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
wrote:
would have been referred to in years gone by as a "sporting Lady"
about setting up house keeping and one of the questions she asked me
was, "How many baths do you take every day?" Being, I thought, a clean
young American boy, I replied, "well at least one, how many do you
take?" She replied, "at least four."
I discovered that "taking a bath" in the hinterlands of Thailand, in
those days, was more a matter of heat control rather than an exercise
in cleanliness. All hot and sweaty? Take a bath :-)
--
cheers,
John B.
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
Oct 27, 2016, 8:33:51 PM10/27/16
to
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
Oct 27, 2016, 8:35:12 PM10/27/16
to
didnah you read my account of both bar cables failing as I came across a multiple death accident scene ?
John B.
Oct 27, 2016, 8:48:02 PM10/27/16
to
On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 14:10:26 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
You must be a very powerful person. the breaking strength of 1/16"
steel cable is 480 pounds. To think that you can pull that weight with
only one hand.
By the way,
http://www.columbiatribune.com/arts_life/pulse/hand-strength-can-be-an-indicator-of-your-health/article_18f87f8d-db70-5d76-9ed4-a914b86573f7.html
has it that the average human male can grip some 121.8 pounds.
You must be a real superman. Do you leap tall buildings with a single
bound also?
--
cheers,
John B.
wrote:
steel cable is 480 pounds. To think that you can pull that weight with
only one hand.
By the way,
http://www.columbiatribune.com/arts_life/pulse/hand-strength-can-be-an-indicator-of-your-health/article_18f87f8d-db70-5d76-9ed4-a914b86573f7.html
has it that the average human male can grip some 121.8 pounds.
You must be a real superman. Do you leap tall buildings with a single
bound also?
--
cheers,
John B.
Frank Miles
Oct 28, 2016, 12:30:59 AM10/28/16
to
in shifter cables. I'm sure I've broken more than a few brake cables,
always (I think) at the lever/pivot. Don't know if this means my levers
are less than top-notch. More than one brake brand. Do you ride only
relatively new bikes? (My newest is about 12 yo.) Maybe it's my buying
cheap cables?
In any event, I sure like redundancy in brakes!
-F
John B.
Oct 28, 2016, 2:59:28 AM10/28/16
to
On Fri, 28 Oct 2016 04:30:33 -0000 (UTC), Frank Miles
There is this thing that the airplane people invented called
"preventative Maintenance", apparently due to a certain amount of
encouragement by the drivers. To stay on topic I might add that the
drivers really, really, don't care much for brake failures.
--
cheers,
John B.
"preventative Maintenance", apparently due to a certain amount of
encouragement by the drivers. To stay on topic I might add that the
drivers really, really, don't care much for brake failures.
--
cheers,
John B.
Joerg
Oct 28, 2016, 10:06:52 AM10/28/16
to
where they typically break, at the little end piece that locks them into
the lever. That piece simply "dislocated" from the cable.
jbeattie
Oct 28, 2016, 10:54:18 AM10/28/16
to
Riding in low traction conditions, it is wise to use more rear brake because you can control a rear skid better. A rear skid is also more likely to produce a low side crash rather than a high side OTB -- unless, of course, you are flipping over your son who is sliding across the road like a hockey puck.
I was watching my son as he went down, and it didn't look like he locked up the front brake or lost his front end. It was a pretty smooth loss of traction on a descending curve -- more of tread adhesion problem. I was getting good grip and descending faster than him. OTOH, like many young racers, his motor is more developed than his road handling skills, and he may have felt a little slip, overreacted and used too much rear and front brake. I'm not going to cross-examine him about it since he feels guilty enough.
-- Jay Beattie.
(PeteCresswell)
Oct 28, 2016, 11:25:58 AM10/28/16
to
Per John B.:
bike just about everywhere. Basically, whenever I got back to the
house I'd shower off outside before going in.
--
Pete Cresswell
>I discovered that "taking a bath" in the hinterlands of Thailand, in
>those days, was more a matter of heat control rather than an exercise
>in cleanliness. All hot and sweaty? Take a bath :-)
When I was taking 6-8 showers a day I was living in Hawaii and riding my
>those days, was more a matter of heat control rather than an exercise
>in cleanliness. All hot and sweaty? Take a bath :-)
bike just about everywhere. Basically, whenever I got back to the
house I'd shower off outside before going in.
--
Pete Cresswell
(PeteCresswell)
Oct 28, 2016, 11:29:03 AM10/28/16
to
Per John B.:
I can hardly walk and I managed to break a cable on my Hobie Mirage
drive. Post-break inspection revealed that my failure to rinse/oil
them after every use had allowed strands to rust and break one-by-one
until even I was able to break the cable.
--
Pete Cresswell
>You must be a very powerful person. the breaking strength of 1/16"
>steel cable is 480 pounds. To think that you can pull that weight with
>only one hand.
A little corrosion.... a few broken strands... and it gets easy.
>steel cable is 480 pounds. To think that you can pull that weight with
>only one hand.
I can hardly walk and I managed to break a cable on my Hobie Mirage
drive. Post-break inspection revealed that my failure to rinse/oil
them after every use had allowed strands to rust and break one-by-one
until even I was able to break the cable.
--
Pete Cresswell
Joerg
Oct 28, 2016, 11:50:14 AM10/28/16
to
little thingie locking it into the lever tore off. It must have been a
production defect. Thing is, you never know how close it is to snapping
off as they do not ultrasonically test the attachment like they do with
oil pipelines.
> In any event, I sure like redundancy in brakes!
>
coaster brake (which fails when the chain comes off or snaps).
It is like driving a car where the hand brake doesn't work. Never doing
that has saved our bacon once. Everybody was saying that modern cars are
safe because they have two-circuit hydraulics for the brakes. Yeah,
yeah. To this day I remember the situation and where it happened. On a
German autobahn, approaching an older and thus unusually narrow exit
(Autobahn A1, exit Wermelskirchen, coming from the north, to be exact)
in a VW Golf loaded with three passengers and lots of baggage. I was
driving and started to brake. Or wanted to. Where's the brake pedal?
S..T! I pulled on the hand brake real hard and we rounded the exit turn
with loudly squealing tires. Everyone was pale-faced. Later in the shop
they told the owner that the master cylinder was cracked lengthwise
almost all the way which is why is why both circuits failed simultaneously.
Later I had the same situation happen in an old 16 horse Citroen 2CV
which had only one circuit plus a parking brake for the front wheels.
Pulled off into a rest area, stepped on the ... DANG ... where is the
brake pedal? Parking brake ... nada. I had the choice between a Fiat and
a Mercedes. Took the Fiat, hoping the repair would be cheap (it wasn't).
Turned out that a linkage in the parking brake had failed which caused
the front brakes to become really loose.
Frank Krygowski
Oct 28, 2016, 2:04:02 PM10/28/16
to
On 10/28/2016 10:53 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> I was watching my son as he went down, and it didn't look like he locked up the front brake or lost his front end. It was a pretty smooth loss of traction on a descending curve -- more of tread adhesion problem. I was getting good grip and descending faster than him. OTOH, like many young racers, his motor is more developed than his road handling skills, and he may have felt a little slip, overreacted and used too much rear and front brake. I'm not going to cross-examine him about it since he feels guilty enough.
FWIW, I've always been very conservative on turns, especially
>
> I was watching my son as he went down, and it didn't look like he locked up the front brake or lost his front end. It was a pretty smooth loss of traction on a descending curve -- more of tread adhesion problem. I was getting good grip and descending faster than him. OTOH, like many young racers, his motor is more developed than his road handling skills, and he may have felt a little slip, overreacted and used too much rear and front brake. I'm not going to cross-examine him about it since he feels guilty enough.
descending. That was also true way back when I rode motorcycles a bit
aggressively. Motorcycle reviews in magazines described scraping the
center stand or footpegs, but I could never bring myself to lean that far.
I recall one incident back then when I turned a corner on a wet day and
my motorcycle's back wheel slid out. I turned the front wheel into the
skid but slid sideways toward the front fender of a car waiting at a
stop sign. The rear regained traction just in time to avoid a crash,
but that probably helped convince me that I wasn't bulletproof after all.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Lou Holtman
Oct 28, 2016, 2:49:49 PM10/28/16
to
bike any time over crappy two brake equipped bikes with neglected cables.
--
Lou
Sir Ridesalot
Oct 28, 2016, 4:35:44 PM10/28/16
to
Before EVERY ride I squeeze my brake levers very hard just to be ure there isn't a imminent failure. I do the same after I install a new cable - both to bed it in and to test that thereis no problem. Once I found thatthe shop had a bad batch of metal brake housing ferrules when I pulled hard on the newly installed cable and the housing popped through the metal ferrule. I'm very happy to have found that defect beffore I was riding the bicycle in traffic.
Shimano shifter cables are known to brak strandsinside the lever, so why not inspect them regularly to make sure they aren't breaking on your (maeaning anyone's) bike? No, some people will ride without preventative maintenance and then complain when something breaks and blame the manufacturer of the part and say the part should be as heavy duty a motorcycle or other motor vehicle parts.
How often do you inspect your hydraulic brake system?
Cheers
Phil Lee
Oct 28, 2016, 4:38:18 PM10/28/16
to
AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> considered Thu, 27 Oct 2016 15:53:20 -0500
Cable (or hose) failure isn't the only way you could find yourself
without a useful front brake - front tyre failure is probably the most
likely situation in which a rear brake would be a distinct benefit,
although in the UK, both wheels must be braked by law (although that
legal requirement can be fulfilled by using the pedals on a fixie).
Suddenly and unexpectedly finding slippery conditions (like a diesel
spill) is another situation in which front braking is inadvisable
(BTDT-GTTS).
without a useful front brake - front tyre failure is probably the most
likely situation in which a rear brake would be a distinct benefit,
although in the UK, both wheels must be braked by law (although that
legal requirement can be fulfilled by using the pedals on a fixie).
Suddenly and unexpectedly finding slippery conditions (like a diesel
spill) is another situation in which front braking is inadvisable
(BTDT-GTTS).
Phil Lee
Oct 28, 2016, 4:48:05 PM10/28/16
to
John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> considered Fri, 28 Oct 2016 07:47:58
I strongly suspect that the average brake lever has a mechanical
advantage exceeding 4:1 - but you'd generally lock the front wheel
well before that.
The problem is far more likely to be degraded cable strength, either
through cheaply made cables with poorly attached nipples or poor
maintenance which neglects fraying.
advantage exceeding 4:1 - but you'd generally lock the front wheel
well before that.
The problem is far more likely to be degraded cable strength, either
through cheaply made cables with poorly attached nipples or poor
maintenance which neglects fraying.
Lou Holtman
Oct 28, 2016, 4:50:38 PM10/28/16
to
suddenly, but I look for leakage everytime I clean the bike. What you do
need to look at is brake pad wear. The wear is less obvious and beyond the
limit air gets in the system and you do not want that.
--
Lou
Phil Lee
Oct 28, 2016, 5:02:12 PM10/28/16
to
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> considered Thu, 27 Oct 2016
motorcycling.
My only cable failure was a motorcycle clutch cable, so certainly
wasn't through exceeding the strength of the cable, particularly as
the cable was of a much heavier grade than used on bicycles.
On that occasion, the problem was at the engine end, where (behind a
cover which is not generally removed for maintenance or servicing) the
nipple had seized into the clutch actuating arm, and instead of
rotating (as designed) it was flexing the cable sharply right next to
the nipple each time the clutch was used. I had to ride through
London in the rush hour to reach the nearest dealer who had the right
cable in stock, which was "interesting" without a clutch!
Needless to say, I added a check of that location to my own servicing
schedule!
You wouldn't get that particular problem on a bicycle, as cable ends
aren't hidden behind other components, although the really inept might
miss a similar problem at the handlebar lever end.
18:50:27 -0400 the perfect time to write:
>On 10/27/2016 4:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/27/2016 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2016-10-27 13:18, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That bike only has a front brake.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What is plan B if you approach a busy intersection at a good
>>> clip, the traffic light turns red and the brake cable snaps?
>>> A big life insurance policy?
>>
>>
>> The bike I ride half the year (as filthy as Lou's) has only a front,
>> which is sufficient.
>
>In certain slippery conditions, I rely pretty heavily on my rear brake.
>My rationale is that if the rear skids, I can slide sideways a bit but
>recover. If the front skids, I'm probably going down.
+1, and as taught on most training courses for both cycling and
>On 10/27/2016 4:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/27/2016 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2016-10-27 13:18, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That bike only has a front brake.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What is plan B if you approach a busy intersection at a good
>>> clip, the traffic light turns red and the brake cable snaps?
>>> A big life insurance policy?
>>
>>
>> The bike I ride half the year (as filthy as Lou's) has only a front,
>> which is sufficient.
>
>In certain slippery conditions, I rely pretty heavily on my rear brake.
>My rationale is that if the rear skids, I can slide sideways a bit but
>recover. If the front skids, I'm probably going down.
motorcycling.
>
>> I've never had a cable fail on the road on any bike ever. Is it
>> possible? Sure just highly unlikely. YMMV
>
>I had exactly one such failure, at a really terrible time. I was
>helping with some bike safety videos - really, short Public Service
>Announcements for both cyclists and motorists. They were well funded by
>a local lawyer, they ran during prime time (unlike most PSAs) and they
>involved a professional film crew. (I did most of the scripts, chose
>most of the on-road situations, and did some on-camera work.)
>
>Anyway, they brought in some good-looking models to ride the bikes
>through the on-road situations, but they didn't bring bikes! So I
>loaned them my utility bike.
>
>Just before the scene demonstrating a proper left turn, the guy riding
>my bike came up to me and showed me that the front brake wasn't working.
> The cable had snapped at the brake lever end.
>
>Needless to say, I was embarrassed. And astonished.
Big oops!
>> I've never had a cable fail on the road on any bike ever. Is it
>> possible? Sure just highly unlikely. YMMV
>
>I had exactly one such failure, at a really terrible time. I was
>helping with some bike safety videos - really, short Public Service
>Announcements for both cyclists and motorists. They were well funded by
>a local lawyer, they ran during prime time (unlike most PSAs) and they
>involved a professional film crew. (I did most of the scripts, chose
>most of the on-road situations, and did some on-camera work.)
>
>Anyway, they brought in some good-looking models to ride the bikes
>through the on-road situations, but they didn't bring bikes! So I
>loaned them my utility bike.
>
>Just before the scene demonstrating a proper left turn, the guy riding
>my bike came up to me and showed me that the front brake wasn't working.
> The cable had snapped at the brake lever end.
>
>Needless to say, I was embarrassed. And astonished.
My only cable failure was a motorcycle clutch cable, so certainly
wasn't through exceeding the strength of the cable, particularly as
the cable was of a much heavier grade than used on bicycles.
On that occasion, the problem was at the engine end, where (behind a
cover which is not generally removed for maintenance or servicing) the
nipple had seized into the clutch actuating arm, and instead of
rotating (as designed) it was flexing the cable sharply right next to
the nipple each time the clutch was used. I had to ride through
London in the rush hour to reach the nearest dealer who had the right
cable in stock, which was "interesting" without a clutch!
Needless to say, I added a check of that location to my own servicing
schedule!
You wouldn't get that particular problem on a bicycle, as cable ends
aren't hidden behind other components, although the really inept might
miss a similar problem at the handlebar lever end.
Phil Lee
Oct 28, 2016, 5:09:39 PM10/28/16
to
John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> considered Fri, 28 Oct 2016 13:59:25
Preventive maintenance was invented well before aircraft.
It probably goes back to the Roman Empire, and although formal
maintenance schedules are not known from that time, they certainly
existed by the 19th century on the railways, some even enforced by
law.
It probably goes back to the Roman Empire, and although formal
maintenance schedules are not known from that time, they certainly
existed by the 19th century on the railways, some even enforced by
law.
(PeteCresswell)
Oct 28, 2016, 5:31:51 PM10/28/16
to
Per Lou Holtman:
overheated so much that I lost all braking power on the front wheel.
It was up in Jim Thorpe PA and the descent was kind of extreme - but I
was able to replicate it on other steep descents.
Something about the fluid overheating and either an "Open" or "Closed"
system (can't remember which... but it was one where I could adjust the
pad clearance on-the-fly by twiddling a little thing on top of the brake
handle reservoirs).
--
Pete Cresswell
> Give me my one hydraulic disc brake equipped
>bike any time over crappy two brake equipped bikes with neglected cables.
I lost much of my enthusiasm for hydraulic brakes when my front brake
>bike any time over crappy two brake equipped bikes with neglected cables.
overheated so much that I lost all braking power on the front wheel.
It was up in Jim Thorpe PA and the descent was kind of extreme - but I
was able to replicate it on other steep descents.
Something about the fluid overheating and either an "Open" or "Closed"
system (can't remember which... but it was one where I could adjust the
pad clearance on-the-fly by twiddling a little thing on top of the brake
handle reservoirs).
--
Pete Cresswell
Phil Lee
Oct 28, 2016, 6:03:37 PM10/28/16
to
Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Fri, 28 Oct 2016
The worst brake failure I ever had wasn't even a complete one - it was
the load sensing valve in a semi-trailer, which had jammed in the
unloaded (so very light braking) position due to mis-assembly. The
brakes were fine when I took charge of the empty trailer on the way
out, but on the return trip with 25 tonnes of soft drinks on board,
the trailer braking was so weak as to be almost non-existent (probably
less than 20% of what was needed). I discovered this at the off ramp
to the M25, on the descent to a red traffic light, and missed a queue
of traffic by a fine hair, almost jack-knifing the outfit (which is a
natural consequence of lacking trailer brakes).
I was so shaken that I went ape at the depot when I reached it (only
about 20 minutes later, even driving VERY carefully to avoid any need
to brake hard), and tore the repair shop supervisor a new one!
As I was agency, not direct employed, I got away with it, and the
transport manager actually admitted that he was pleased someone had
done it, because (at least according to him) the guy needed it, and
due to his connections in the company (I think the depot manager was
his uncle, or father-in-law, or something like that), only an
"outsider" could have got away with shouting him out.
The transport manager could always get away with saying I was the only
relief driver available when he (repeatedly) booked me again.
It was several months later that the agency manager told me that I'd
been being requested by name, as apparently seeing me around the place
kept the repair shop supervisor honest, which the transport manager
regarded as a Good Thing :)
the load sensing valve in a semi-trailer, which had jammed in the
unloaded (so very light braking) position due to mis-assembly. The
brakes were fine when I took charge of the empty trailer on the way
out, but on the return trip with 25 tonnes of soft drinks on board,
the trailer braking was so weak as to be almost non-existent (probably
less than 20% of what was needed). I discovered this at the off ramp
to the M25, on the descent to a red traffic light, and missed a queue
of traffic by a fine hair, almost jack-knifing the outfit (which is a
natural consequence of lacking trailer brakes).
I was so shaken that I went ape at the depot when I reached it (only
about 20 minutes later, even driving VERY carefully to avoid any need
to brake hard), and tore the repair shop supervisor a new one!
As I was agency, not direct employed, I got away with it, and the
transport manager actually admitted that he was pleased someone had
done it, because (at least according to him) the guy needed it, and
due to his connections in the company (I think the depot manager was
his uncle, or father-in-law, or something like that), only an
"outsider" could have got away with shouting him out.
The transport manager could always get away with saying I was the only
relief driver available when he (repeatedly) booked me again.
It was several months later that the agency manager told me that I'd
been being requested by name, as apparently seeing me around the place
kept the repair shop supervisor honest, which the transport manager
regarded as a Good Thing :)
AMuzi
Oct 28, 2016, 6:06:36 PM10/28/16
to
Frank Krygowski
Oct 28, 2016, 6:56:17 PM10/28/16
to
On 10/28/2016 4:48 PM, Phil Lee wrote:
Regarding grip strength: One year in a class I was teaching, I decided
to have fun and give a bunch of bike-related projects. One of them was
to have the students compute the bending strength of a typical bike
brake lever.
They were a bit confused when they calculated it to be rather low, but
we verified it by having one guy (a football player) squeeze it hard.
It folded rather easily. (We used a grip dynamometer to measure all the
grip strengths in the class. His was the strongest.)
Of course, the explanation is that the lever doesn't need to withstand a
large force, because as Phil said, you'd lock the wheel before the lever
bent.
(However, that's no guarantee that we won't see a "defective product!!!"
lawsuit plus headlines if someone did bend a lever that way.)
--
- Frank Krygowski
> John B. wrote:
>>
>> You must be a very powerful person. the breaking strength of 1/16"
>> steel cable is 480 pounds. To think that you can pull that weight with
>> only one hand.
>>
>> By the way,
>> http://www.columbiatribune.com/arts_life/pulse/hand-strength-can-be-an-indicator-of-your-health/article_18f87f8d-db70-5d76-9ed4-a914b86573f7.html
>> has it that the average human male can grip some 121.8 pounds.
>
> I strongly suspect that the average brake lever has a mechanical
> advantage exceeding 4:1 - but you'd generally lock the front wheel
> well before that.
Agreed.
>>
>> You must be a very powerful person. the breaking strength of 1/16"
>> steel cable is 480 pounds. To think that you can pull that weight with
>> only one hand.
>>
>> By the way,
>> http://www.columbiatribune.com/arts_life/pulse/hand-strength-can-be-an-indicator-of-your-health/article_18f87f8d-db70-5d76-9ed4-a914b86573f7.html
>> has it that the average human male can grip some 121.8 pounds.
>
> I strongly suspect that the average brake lever has a mechanical
> advantage exceeding 4:1 - but you'd generally lock the front wheel
> well before that.
Regarding grip strength: One year in a class I was teaching, I decided
to have fun and give a bunch of bike-related projects. One of them was
to have the students compute the bending strength of a typical bike
brake lever.
They were a bit confused when they calculated it to be rather low, but
we verified it by having one guy (a football player) squeeze it hard.
It folded rather easily. (We used a grip dynamometer to measure all the
grip strengths in the class. His was the strongest.)
Of course, the explanation is that the lever doesn't need to withstand a
large force, because as Phil said, you'd lock the wheel before the lever
bent.
(However, that's no guarantee that we won't see a "defective product!!!"
lawsuit plus headlines if someone did bend a lever that way.)
--
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
Oct 28, 2016, 6:58:44 PM10/28/16
to
fail once, too. The bike (a Kawasaki) was only a couple years old.
That's when I first made and installed my own cable end. It lasted
until I gave the bike away, at least 10 years later.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Joerg
Oct 28, 2016, 7:34:44 PM10/28/16
to
DOT4, over time when the fluid heats up. Bicycle systems are usually
closed and can't. So you'll have to swap the fluid regularly if you ride
long descents. My MTB buddy lost his front brake on the last curve down
a steep hill right in front of me. Luckily the rear worked and being an
avid dirt biker he skidded through the curve sideways in an impressive
plume of gravel and dust. Without a rear brake he'd have slammed into an
assortment of boulders.
I think with mineral oil based systems it can be worse because the oil
does not absorb water. Water can puddle at the caliper and then the
boiling temperature doesn't gradually drop like it does with DOT4 but it
will suddenly shift down to 212F. Once that water pocket boils -> no brake.
Joerg
Oct 28, 2016, 7:41:44 PM10/28/16
to
white-knuckle ride.
John B.
Oct 28, 2016, 9:28:03 PM10/28/16
to
On Fri, 28 Oct 2016 07:07:02 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
Well, I might comment that I was in Aircraft Maintenance for 20 years,
in the Air Force, and never saw, or heard of for that matter, a
control cable breaking on an airplane. I started riding a bicycle with
cables probably 25 years, maybe 30 years, ago and never had a cable
break, not do I, personally, know anyone who had a cable break. Oh
yes, I might add that I rode a motorcycle, as my sole means of
transportation, for about 10 years. again, never had a cable break.
Of course the fact that I never had a cable break doesn't mean that
cables never break, but it does seem a bit strange that something that
never occurred in, perhaps 60 years of my lifetime, happens so
frequently in yours.
Of course, one might claim that because they frequently break steel
cables with a reported strength of over 400 pounds proves that they
are some sort of Superman.
On the other hand it might equally prove that they simply tell a lot
of lies.
--
cheers,
John B.
in the Air Force, and never saw, or heard of for that matter, a
control cable breaking on an airplane. I started riding a bicycle with
cables probably 25 years, maybe 30 years, ago and never had a cable
break, not do I, personally, know anyone who had a cable break. Oh
yes, I might add that I rode a motorcycle, as my sole means of
transportation, for about 10 years. again, never had a cable break.
Of course the fact that I never had a cable break doesn't mean that
cables never break, but it does seem a bit strange that something that
never occurred in, perhaps 60 years of my lifetime, happens so
frequently in yours.
Of course, one might claim that because they frequently break steel
cables with a reported strength of over 400 pounds proves that they
are some sort of Superman.
On the other hand it might equally prove that they simply tell a lot
of lies.
--
cheers,
John B.
John B.
Oct 28, 2016, 9:53:39 PM10/28/16
to
On Fri, 28 Oct 2016 22:09:35 +0100, Phil Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:
Sure. And sailors have been plumbing the bilges, to determine how bad
the hull is leaking, probably since the first hollow log vessel. But
to the best of my knowledge the aircraft industry was the first
organization that developed a formulized, and documented, periodic
inspection and maintenance system.
--
cheers,
John B.
wrote:
the hull is leaking, probably since the first hollow log vessel. But
to the best of my knowledge the aircraft industry was the first
organization that developed a formulized, and documented, periodic
inspection and maintenance system.
--
cheers,
John B.
Frank Miles
Oct 28, 2016, 11:09:10 PM10/28/16
to
On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 08:27:59 +0700, John B. wrote:
[snip]
> Well, I might comment that I was in Aircraft Maintenance for 20 years,
> in the Air Force, and never saw, or heard of for that matter, a control
> cable breaking on an airplane. I started riding a bicycle with cables
> probably 25 years, maybe 30 years, ago and never had a cable break, not
> do I, personally, know anyone who had a cable break. Oh yes, I might add
> that I rode a motorcycle, as my sole means of transportation, for about
> 10 years. again, never had a cable break.
>
> Of course the fact that I never had a cable break doesn't mean that
> cables never break, but it does seem a bit strange that something that
> never occurred in, perhaps 60 years of my lifetime, happens so
> frequently in yours.
>
> Of course, one might claim that because they frequently break steel
> cables with a reported strength of over 400 pounds proves that they are
> some sort of Superman.
I'm certainly no superman.
> On the other hand it might equally prove that they simply tell a lot of
> lies.
I can't tell you about others' experiences. I can assure you that both my
wife and I have had cables fail. Without having kept records, I'm fairly
sure its less than once a year but at least once every few years.
Do you replace cables periodically? I don't - maybe I should? I do all
my own servicing - do you? If you have a shop do it, might they be
replacing your cables periodically without you noticing?
The cables clearly fail under repeated flexure, hardening over many
cycles of operation, the strands eventually breaking one by one until the
whole thing breaks. It's not unusual that I'll notice a "snap" sound and
a slight give as strands break. On my bike with Campy downtube shifters,
I may have the additional "clue" in having a broken strand stabbing a
finger or thumb, letting me know it's time to replace the cable. Brake
cables are not so exposed so I have to be more attentive.
-F
[snip]
> Well, I might comment that I was in Aircraft Maintenance for 20 years,
> in the Air Force, and never saw, or heard of for that matter, a control
> cable breaking on an airplane. I started riding a bicycle with cables
> probably 25 years, maybe 30 years, ago and never had a cable break, not
> do I, personally, know anyone who had a cable break. Oh yes, I might add
> that I rode a motorcycle, as my sole means of transportation, for about
> 10 years. again, never had a cable break.
>
> Of course the fact that I never had a cable break doesn't mean that
> cables never break, but it does seem a bit strange that something that
> never occurred in, perhaps 60 years of my lifetime, happens so
> frequently in yours.
>
> Of course, one might claim that because they frequently break steel
> cables with a reported strength of over 400 pounds proves that they are
> some sort of Superman.
> On the other hand it might equally prove that they simply tell a lot of
> lies.
wife and I have had cables fail. Without having kept records, I'm fairly
sure its less than once a year but at least once every few years.
Do you replace cables periodically? I don't - maybe I should? I do all
my own servicing - do you? If you have a shop do it, might they be
replacing your cables periodically without you noticing?
The cables clearly fail under repeated flexure, hardening over many
cycles of operation, the strands eventually breaking one by one until the
whole thing breaks. It's not unusual that I'll notice a "snap" sound and
a slight give as strands break. On my bike with Campy downtube shifters,
I may have the additional "clue" in having a broken strand stabbing a
finger or thumb, letting me know it's time to replace the cable. Brake
cables are not so exposed so I have to be more attentive.
-F
James
Oct 28, 2016, 11:18:43 PM10/28/16
to
On 28/10/16 07:53, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/27/2016 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-10-27 13:18, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>
>>> That bike only has a front brake.
>>>
>>
>> What is plan B if you approach a busy intersection at a good
>> clip, the traffic light turns red and the brake cable snaps?
>> A big life insurance policy?
>
>
> The bike I ride half the year (as filthy as Lou's) has only a front,
> which is sufficient.
>
> I've never had a cable fail on the road on any bike ever. Is it
> possible? Sure just highly unlikely. YMMV
>
Agree. Never broken a brake cable.
> On 10/27/2016 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-10-27 13:18, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>
>>> That bike only has a front brake.
>>>
>>
>> What is plan B if you approach a busy intersection at a good
>> clip, the traffic light turns red and the brake cable snaps?
>> A big life insurance policy?
>
>
> The bike I ride half the year (as filthy as Lou's) has only a front,
> which is sufficient.
>
> I've never had a cable fail on the road on any bike ever. Is it
> possible? Sure just highly unlikely. YMMV
>
--
JS
James
Oct 28, 2016, 11:21:12 PM10/28/16
to
On 28/10/16 07:24, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-10-27 13:18, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>
>> That bike only has a front brake.
>>
>
> What is plan B if you approach a busy intersection at a good clip, the
> traffic light turns red and the brake cable snaps? A big life insurance
> policy?
>
The moments of panic braking in my life usually results in the rear
> On 2016-10-27 13:18, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>
>> That bike only has a front brake.
>>
>
> What is plan B if you approach a busy intersection at a good clip, the
> traffic light turns red and the brake cable snaps? A big life insurance
> policy?
>
wheel leaving the ground. A rear brake is near worthless in an emergency.
But I know you will think up some weird scenario where a rear brake is
essential, like when your riding fast in reverse...
--
JS
James
Oct 28, 2016, 11:25:03 PM10/28/16
to
On 29/10/16 01:07, Joerg wrote:
>
> Ever heard of wear and tear and connector links? All of the cables broke
> where they typically break, at the little end piece that locks them into
> the lever. That piece simply "dislocated" from the cable.
>
"typically" implies it happens often enough to be statistically significant.
>
> Ever heard of wear and tear and connector links? All of the cables broke
> where they typically break, at the little end piece that locks them into
> the lever. That piece simply "dislocated" from the cable.
>
Maybe you just purchased cheap shit brake cables.
--
JS
Frank Krygowski
Oct 29, 2016, 12:19:42 AM10/29/16
to
broken many shift cables, but IIRC only one brake cable.
Why? For one thing, shift cables see many more fatigue cycles, because
at least for avid riders on derailleur bikes, there are many more shifts
than applications of brakes. For another thing, there's more flexing in
the typical shift cable, where it bends around the shift lever. Brake
cables tend to run in a straighter line.
Yes, I'm sure it's a good idea to replace brake cables every few years.
I should probably try that. But my brake cables seem to last for
decades. By contrast, I carry a spare shift cable in my seat bag.
--
- Frank Krygowski
John B.
Oct 29, 2016, 2:42:24 AM10/29/16
to
On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 08:27:59 +0700, John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz>
wrote:
Should have read "nor do I".
wrote:
John B.
Oct 29, 2016, 3:03:27 AM10/29/16
to
change the brake cables; every Y months the shift. But I do look the
bike over frequently - check the head bearings, bottom bracket,
wheels, tires, fender attachment, etc., for wear or adjustment. For
example, it is about 40 yards from my gate down a small lane to a
larger road and I will always check the front and rear brakes before I
reach the corner.
Maybe it is just me? When I walk out to the pickup first thing in the
day I always glance at the tires to see whether they are flat or
round. If I raise the hood for any reason I will look at the brake
reservoir before I drop the hood.
As for cables breaking strands, any crane you see has a frequent cable
check, oil drilling rigs go even further they cut off about a meter,
or so, of the draw works cable and have it pull tested annually.
>The cables clearly fail under repeated flexure, hardening over many
>cycles of operation, the strands eventually breaking one by one until the
>whole thing breaks. It's not unusual that I'll notice a "snap" sound and
>a slight give as strands break. On my bike with Campy downtube shifters,
>I may have the additional "clue" in having a broken strand stabbing a
>finger or thumb, letting me know it's time to replace the cable. Brake
>cables are not so exposed so I have to be more attentive.
>
> -F
either the derailers or the brake calipers. I suppose I tighten the
clamp bolt till it is good and tight and then give it a bit more for
good measure and the next time I look there are broken strands.
--
cheers,
John B.
Lou Holtman
Oct 29, 2016, 4:58:09 AM10/29/16
to
wrong or you are doing something wrong. Most people have no regular brake
cable failures. I would check the quality of the cables used, routing of
the cables in the lever (some old levers use weird angles), pinch bolt and
the torque used. I'm surprised the torque didn't come up yet in this
discussion. Unsufficient or over torque is much more of a failure mode than
breaking.
--
Lou
Joerg
Oct 29, 2016, 10:12:07 AM10/29/16
to
On 2016-10-28 20:25, James wrote:
> On 29/10/16 01:07, Joerg wrote:
>
>>
>> Ever heard of wear and tear and connector links? All of the cables broke
>> where they typically break, at the little end piece that locks them into
>> the lever. That piece simply "dislocated" from the cable.
>>
>
>
> "typically" implies it happens often enough to be statistically
> significant.
>
It sure is to the person affected who sees a bunch of trees or the back
> On 29/10/16 01:07, Joerg wrote:
>
>>
>> Ever heard of wear and tear and connector links? All of the cables broke
>> where they typically break, at the little end piece that locks them into
>> the lever. That piece simply "dislocated" from the cable.
>>
>
>
> "typically" implies it happens often enough to be statistically
> significant.
>
of a car coming at them at high speed.
> Maybe you just purchased cheap shit brake cables.
>
from the LBS.
Joerg
Oct 29, 2016, 10:25:32 AM10/29/16
to
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vol_1121_Air_Moorea
If you don't understand French, it was the elevator control cable that
snapped. All on board died in the crash.
> ... I started riding a bicycle with
> cables probably 25 years, maybe 30 years, ago and never had a cable
> break, not do I, personally, know anyone who had a cable break. Oh
> yes, I might add that I rode a motorcycle, as my sole means of
> transportation, for about 10 years. again, never had a cable break.
>
> Of course the fact that I never had a cable break doesn't mean that
> cables never break, but it does seem a bit strange that something that
> never occurred in, perhaps 60 years of my lifetime, happens so
> frequently in yours.
>
> Of course, one might claim that because they frequently break steel
> cables with a reported strength of over 400 pounds proves that they
> are some sort of Superman.
>
Have you ever thought why chains snap that are designed to withstand a
> break, not do I, personally, know anyone who had a cable break. Oh
> yes, I might add that I rode a motorcycle, as my sole means of
> transportation, for about 10 years. again, never had a cable break.
>
> Of course the fact that I never had a cable break doesn't mean that
> cables never break, but it does seem a bit strange that something that
> never occurred in, perhaps 60 years of my lifetime, happens so
> frequently in yours.
>
> Of course, one might claim that because they frequently break steel
> cables with a reported strength of over 400 pounds proves that they
> are some sort of Superman.
>
ton? Why do you think I carry a chain link at all times? Haven't had to
use it for myself over the last years but for other riders. Sometimes
that wasn't enough though, like for the guy where the chain pretzeled
the rear derailer when it snapped. Which is why on the road bike I also
carry a tow rope.
> On the other hand it might equally prove that they simply tell a lot
> of lies.
>
Joerg
Oct 29, 2016, 10:29:36 AM10/29/16
to
On 2016-10-28 20:20, James wrote:
> On 28/10/16 07:24, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-10-27 13:18, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>>>
>>> That bike only has a front brake.
>>>
>>
>> What is plan B if you approach a busy intersection at a good clip, the
>> traffic light turns red and the brake cable snaps? A big life insurance
>> policy?
>>
>
> The moments of panic braking in my life usually results in the rear
> wheel leaving the ground. A rear brake is near worthless in an emergency.
>
Not at all.
> On 28/10/16 07:24, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-10-27 13:18, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>>>
>>> That bike only has a front brake.
>>>
>>
>> What is plan B if you approach a busy intersection at a good clip, the
>> traffic light turns red and the brake cable snaps? A big life insurance
>> policy?
>>
>
> The moments of panic braking in my life usually results in the rear
> wheel leaving the ground. A rear brake is near worthless in an emergency.
>
> But I know you will think up some weird scenario where a rear brake is
> essential, like when your riding fast in reverse...
>
a trail. My MTB buddy was in front and before the last sharp turn I
wondered "Why is he not slowimng down?". Turns out his front had faded.
Without the rear brake he'd have crashed into rocks.
Joerg
Oct 29, 2016, 10:30:09 AM10/29/16
to
On 2016-10-28 16:34, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-10-28 14:31, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>> Per Lou Holtman:
>>> Give me my one hydraulic disc brake equipped
>>> bike any time over crappy two brake equipped bikes with neglected
>>> cables.
>>
>> I lost much of my enthusiasm for hydraulic brakes when my front brake
>> overheated so much that I lost all braking power on the front wheel.
>>
>> It was up in Jim Thorpe PA and the descent was kind of extreme - but I
>> was able to replicate it on other steep descents.
>>
>> Something about the fluid overheating and either an "Open" or "Closed"
>> system (can't remember which... but it was one where I could adjust the
>> pad clearance on-the-fly by twiddling a little thing on top of the brake
>> handle reservoirs).
>>
>
> Open systems like in cars can vent off any liquid ...
> On 2016-10-28 14:31, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>> Per Lou Holtman:
>>> Give me my one hydraulic disc brake equipped
>>> bike any time over crappy two brake equipped bikes with neglected
>>> cables.
>>
>> I lost much of my enthusiasm for hydraulic brakes when my front brake
>> overheated so much that I lost all braking power on the front wheel.
>>
>> It was up in Jim Thorpe PA and the descent was kind of extreme - but I
>> was able to replicate it on other steep descents.
>>
>> Something about the fluid overheating and either an "Open" or "Closed"
>> system (can't remember which... but it was one where I could adjust the
>> pad clearance on-the-fly by twiddling a little thing on top of the brake
>> handle reservoirs).
>>
>
Of course I meant water.
> ... that made it into the
AMuzi
Oct 29, 2016, 11:54:40 AM10/29/16
to
a deficiency of installation or maintenance.
As designed, the system shouldn't bend/crack/abrade the
wire. Improperly assembled parts, especially anchor
assemblies, rusty pivots which flex the wire sideways,
kinked/damaged casing or cracked/bent/broken adjusters,
corrosion, sticky/bent lever pivots all can either flex or
abrade wires in a potentially fatal manner.
jbeattie
Oct 29, 2016, 12:49:45 PM10/29/16
to
For me, two brakes means better stopping and more options in low traction environments. Like Frank was saying, its easier to control a rear wheel skid or wash out than a front. I think learning how to integrate front and rear braking is an important skill for road cyclists, and its a way of life for trail and DH riders who use rear braking as a steering mechanism.
-- Jay Beattie.
Joerg
Oct 29, 2016, 12:59:33 PM10/29/16
to
On 2016-10-28 14:02, Phil Lee wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> considered Thu, 27 Oct 2016
> 18:50:27 -0400 the perfect time to write:
>
>> On 10/27/2016 4:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 10/27/2016 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2016-10-27 13:18, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> That bike only has a front brake.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What is plan B if you approach a busy intersection at a good
>>>> clip, the traffic light turns red and the brake cable snaps?
>>>> A big life insurance policy?
>>>
>>>
>>> The bike I ride half the year (as filthy as Lou's) has only a front,
>>> which is sufficient.
>>
>> In certain slippery conditions, I rely pretty heavily on my rear brake.
>> My rationale is that if the rear skids, I can slide sideways a bit but
>> recover. If the front skids, I'm probably going down.
>
> +1, and as taught on most training courses for both cycling and
> motorcycling.
It depends. Once on a trail section with deep gravel I missed a
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> considered Thu, 27 Oct 2016
> 18:50:27 -0400 the perfect time to write:
>
>> On 10/27/2016 4:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 10/27/2016 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2016-10-27 13:18, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> That bike only has a front brake.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What is plan B if you approach a busy intersection at a good
>>>> clip, the traffic light turns red and the brake cable snaps?
>>>> A big life insurance policy?
>>>
>>>
>>> The bike I ride half the year (as filthy as Lou's) has only a front,
>>> which is sufficient.
>>
>> In certain slippery conditions, I rely pretty heavily on my rear brake.
>> My rationale is that if the rear skids, I can slide sideways a bit but
>> recover. If the front skids, I'm probably going down.
>
> +1, and as taught on most training courses for both cycling and
> motorcycling.
turn-off. Was a bit too fast for conditions, saw an old rock slide
ahead, too close. I went behind the saddle and braked hard on both
wheels, locking up the front while trying my best to keep the MTB
upright. It worked. The front dug in and I came to a stop before hitting
the boulders. It had the effect of a brake-failure exit for trucks.
Missing that turn-off was one of those "I am glad nobody saw this" moments.
Joerg
Oct 29, 2016, 2:10:40 PM10/29/16
to
section but not DH turf in the sense of lots of scary jumps or
ultra-steep. Just a regular steep hill where you could not let things
get too fast. In fact, he was on a Specialized DH bike with double-crown
fork and all that. I was surprised that my cheapo Promax Decipher with
only 7" didn't fade even though my total ride weight was at least 25lbs
higher.
> For me, two brakes means better stopping and more options in low
> traction environments. Like Frank was saying, its easier to control
> a rear wheel skid or wash out than a front. I think learning how to
> integrate front and rear braking is an important skill for road
> cyclists, and its a way of life for trail and DH riders who use rear
> braking as a steering mechanism.
>
slip and slide in a controlled fashion becomes part of "muscle memory".
But I also appreciate the fact that two brakes give you redundancy. You
can (mostly) slow down the bike enough that the event remians somewhat
graceful and without the rescue guys having to come out.
You can't do many of the hills here with rear-only. It'll start skidding
and wrecking the rear tire really fast.
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