15/16 spokes in 2.6mm spoke holes- Jobs wheel on a Paul hub?

[MK1000]

Although I'm (almost, see my other post) completely happy with my Jobst
wheels using Araya RC-540 rims, DT 14/15 spokes and old Dura Ace hubs, I
do have another bicycle and it needs wheels too.

For these, I have a 36H Campagnolo Record high-flange front hub, and
Module E rims from my stash. I want a 5 speed rear hub that will allow
me to use the same length spokes all around.

Paul makes one that would match well the front hub, and from the specs,
Spocalc tells me I could use 296mm all around. All seems perfect except:
the spoke hole diameter on the Paul hubs is 2.6mm. I guess they have
people who want to use 13g spokes- don't ask me why- but I want to use
15/16.

I really would prefer to use 15/16 spokes. The DTs in this size are now
easily available on eBay, but as explained in my other post, I will not
use DT spokes again: from the pictures on eBay I see that even for
these, they are still using the bone-headed 90 degree elbow angle. So,
as far as I know the only other choice in this size would be Hoshis.


My questions then: am I correct that a 2.6mm hole is just too large to
properly support a 15g elbow? Remember that Jobst said 2.1mm is ideal
for 15/16 spokes, while the Campagnolo Records are 2.3mm, which is the
smallest that would also allow 14g. I believe my Dura Ace hubs are 2.4mm
and that should be fine for 15g as well. 2.5mm, I would have thought
would be dicey with 15g, but 2.6mm seems just too far off.

By the way, Phil is no longer listing freewheel hubs on it website, as
far as I can see. I don't know their spoke hole diameter, if they are
still available, although I believe their road hubs would also allow me
the same 296mm spokes all around. Jan Heine (Compass) is selling a
cassette 5 speed, but they would be close to double the price and would
not allow the same spoke length all around. I don't know the spoke hole
diameters for these either.

Opinions? Experiences? Specs?

[Clive George]

On 12/02/2015 18:18, MK1000 wrote:

> Opinions? Experiences? Specs?

Use DTs and don't worry about the elbow angle. They're holding up in our
tandem wheels. If they'd died in your other wheels then yes, you'd have
reason to not use them but have the theoretical problems you're worried
about translated into real ones?

[AMuzi]

Well, that raised my eyebrow so I called Phil Wood just now.
Indeed, when present hubshell inventory is sold, they will
not make more, expected to last through 2016 at present rates.

Except for the 'skip ad' button on youtube, this century
hasn't been all that great so far.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[MK1000]

On 12/02/2015 1:48 PM, Clive George wrote:
> Use DTs and don't worry about the elbow angle. They're holding up in
> our tandem wheels. If they'd died in your other wheels then yes,
> you'd have reason to not use them but have the theoretical problems
> you're worried about translated into real ones?

Yes. The immediate problem during the build is that it is an aggravating
royal pain in the elbow to get a decent line at the hub. I resent being
made to work that hard and that long to make up for DT's obtuseness,
which should instead be in their spoke elbows...

I don't see a reason to use DT again. For thicker spokes I can use
Wheelsmith or Sapim and for 15/16 I can use Hoshi.

I don't yet have the 10-20K miles on the wheels to be sure they will
last. If you have passed the 20K mark with yours, I will be
substantially stress relieved.

[MK1000]

On 12/02/2015 1:48 PM, Clive George wrote:

> Use DTs and don't worry about the elbow angle. They're holding up in
> our tandem wheels. If they'd died in your other wheels then yes,
> you'd have reason to not use them but have the theoretical problems
> you're worried about translated into real ones?

[MK1000]

Would you happen to know the hole diameter for Phils? Or have you seen
any Phil or Paul builds with 15/16?

I agree the situation sucks. But specifically in this regard, it does
seem to me that the Paul hub is better designed in every way... except
for that oversized spoke hole diameter (on the assumption that the spec
for Phils is not the same or worse). Am I missing something?

[AMuzi]

Phil are sized for 14g heads.
Nicely done, I might add, with well formed flanges and good
chamfers.

[jbeattie]

They're just cutting production of threaded hub shells. I don't think that's any more dire that discontinuing the production of new Betamax players. One can always go NOS, used or Velo Orange.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/13/2015 10:07 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>
>
> They're just cutting production of threaded hub shells. I don't think that's any more dire that discontinuing the production of new Betamax players. One can always go NOS, used or Velo Orange.

Yeah, but that lasts only so long.

I'm starting to have trouble finding replacement cogs for my SunTour New
Winner freewheels from the 1980s!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Call or write:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/stfw.html

[jbeattie]

$11 baby, that will buy you a brand-new 5s freewheel. http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=44102

90 available in Portland by the 18th if you order today!

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/13/2015 1:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/13/2015 11:26 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm starting to have trouble finding replacement cogs for my
>> SunTour New Winner freewheels from the 1980s!
>>
>
> Call or write:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/stfw.html

And let me know if you need some. I've got a sprocket board that's
pretty full. My problems are my favorite cogs, the ones I use a lot.

I scored two more freewheels in the past couple months, so I think I'm
OK for a while, but I'll certainly keep Yellow Jersey in mind!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[MK1000]

On 13/02/2015 8:13 AM, AMuzi wrote:

> Phil are sized for 14g heads.
> Nicely done, I might add, with well formed flanges and good chamfers.

OK, so here's the info I just got: Phil says their hubs are designed to
accept spokes from 15g to 13g. Since 13g is 2.3mm, one might guess that
after rolling the threads, the hole would need to be 2.6mm to accept
them and indeed the spec Phil gives is 2.63mm.

I was wondering if you (or anyone else) have ever built or seen Phil
hubs with 15g spokes, and if so how they fared. If 2.1mm holes are ideal
for 15/16s, 2.3 is excellent, and 2.4 is fine, what is 2.6mm???

And while I'm at it- do you have any opinion on Hoshi spokes? I assume
they are first rate but it's best to ask.

In any case I have a bit of a decision to make. According to Spocalc,
these are the spoke lengths I would need with the Module E rims:

Front (Campagnolo Record HF): L/R 295.5
Rear (Phil Touring or Road): L 297.7 R 296.0
Rear (Paul): L 296.8 R 294.8

So, with a Phil I would use 297 all around, and with the Paul 296 all
around. I guess both are OK. Phil doesn't have their web store up yet so
I don't know how much their hubs cost, or where to get them.

[jbeattie]

Jobst used 15/16 spokes on Campy NR hubs which had 2.7mm spoke holes (according to at least one spoke calc)-- and DT spokes, IIRC. If Phil says 15 is O.K., go for it.

I never built a 15g Phil wheel, but Muzi probably has. Andrew?


I built many wheels on Phil/MA2 or ModE/DT 14/15 3X 36 hole. 295/296 on a 120 hub. Sizing was so predictable that I used a power drill and just spun them up to the bottom of the slot. 297 would be too long for right side rear, IMO. If you side-load them, remember to use the cup.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

We've built 15g fronts on Phil but I can't recall a rear and
I generally wouldn't suggest it.

Hoshi is our preferred spoke. They are the last NJS cert
supplier and no complaints here.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/TIMSPOK.JPG


But, among good products my choice is also weighted with
other factors such as delivery time and reliability of
service. I can usually get 100kg of Hoshi made for me and
delivered here before the US distributors can fill a
complete order. It doesn't help to receive a couple thousand
292 when we need 294 for the other side of the hub and they
are backordered. Cutting spokes on a Phil machine
occasionally is one thing but all day long is quite another.

We do use DT Swiss nipples, none better, and buy them in volume.

[MK1000]

On 14/02/2015 9:29 AM, AMuzi wrote:

> We've built 15g fronts on Phil but I can't recall a rear and I generally
> wouldn't suggest it.

Hmm. Would that be because you wouldn't use 15/16 on rears in general,
or specifically on Phils?

>
> Hoshi is our preferred spoke. They are the last NJS cert supplier and no
> complaints here.
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/TIMSPOK.JPG

Interesting picture. Is it my imagination or does it show a mixture of
spokes with 90 degree and obtuse bends? I'd hate to go to the trouble of
getting Hoshi 15/16 from Japan, only to find they have a 90 degree bend
too..

[AMuzi]

Right the first time, we don't run 15g rears generally.
(of course, customers have varied taste and opinion so
'never' would be too strong a word but Phil riders tend to
be bigger guys with more demanding habits)

It was a handful (maybe 500 or so?) from a freshly opened
case. Any apparent variance is probably more my photography
than the actual manufacture.

[avag...@gmail.com]

I have 5's taken from retirees' retired bicycles. Ask...

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/14/2015 2:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/14/2015 12:50 PM, MK1000 wrote:
>> On 14/02/2015 9:29 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/TIMSPOK.JPG
>>
>> Interesting picture. Is it my imagination or does it show a
>> mixture of spokes with 90 degree and obtuse bends? I'd hate
>> to go to the trouble of getting Hoshi 15/16 from Japan, only
>> to find they have a 90 degree bend too..
>>

> It was a handful (maybe 500 or so?) from a freshly opened case. Any
> apparent variance is probably more my photography than the actual
> manufacture.

Of course, a right angle bend appears right angle only in certain views.
Tilting in various ways can make the angle look more acute or more
obtuse. That's certainly no fault of the photographer.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[MK1000]

According to Spocalc, all Campagnolo high flange hubs, and most of their
others, have 2.3mm spoke holes. A few have 2.4, and almost none have
2.7mm. Perversely, one of the ones listed as 2.7mm is Nouvo Record 5
speed 120mm. Well, that's suspect all ready, as I think the hubs of the
NR group are actually always marked Record.

So I took out my shiny NOS Record high flange front hub and measured the
holes. ???? They do seem to be 2.7mm. ???? Also strange: I thought all
the high quality hubs of the era had holes alternating one side
countersunk. None of the holes on mine are countersunk at all.

So did someone slip me LSD, or what is going on here?

> I built many wheels on Phil/MA2 or ModE/DT 14/15 3X 36 hole. 295/296
> on a 120 hub. Sizing was so predictable that I used a power drill
> and just spun them up to the bottom of the slot. 297 would be too
> long for right side rear, IMO.

I'm just going by what Spocalc, Phil and Paul tell me: Mod E are 620mm
ERD, Phil hubs are L/R 54.5/57.8 flange diameter, 31.5/21.0 centre to
flange, 2.63mm spoke holes. Paul are 65/65, 42/24, 2.6mm. These give the
spoke lengths I described. With a Phil, 297 will be 1.5mm too long in
the front, 1.0mm too long freewheel side back, and 0.7mm too short left
side back. With a Paul and 296mm, they will be 0.5mm too long in front,
1.2mm too long drive side back, 0.8mm too short left side back. Doesn't
seem too bad to me, with double walled rims.

> If you side-load them, remember to use
> the cup.

Don't know what you are referring to or what this means- can you explain?

[MK1000]

So does that mean that Hoshi have a 90 degree rather than obtuse bend???

[jbeattie]

I couldn't find a picture. The ancients twist relieved the spokes in a wheel by setting the wheel on its axle, grasping the rim and pressing down. If you did that with a Phil hub, it would pop out the axle/bearings -- or could pop the axle/bearings out of the flange. Thus, Phil sold his hubs with a cup that went around the axle and transferred the side load to the hub shell/flange. I have a bunch of them lying around -- and Andrew probably has a picture.

If you have the Mod E, I would measure the ERD before buying your spokes. Mavic ERDs reported on the inter-web are notoriously wrong, at least for the older rims. I've seen the ERD for a 700C Mod E rim reported as 614. Even more modern Open Pros have a bunch of ERDs reported on the inter-web.

-- Jay Beattie.

[MK1000]

On 14/02/2015 2:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:

I have to ask again in case you missed it: so do Hoshi spokes have 90
degree or obtuse bends?

[AMuzi]

90 degrees.

[jbeattie]

Gasp! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw

-- Jay Beattie

[MK1000]

I did a quick check with a yardstick and 620 seems reasonable. Here's
another interesting database:
http://www.mrrabbit.net/apps/spokechart_v2-0.xls
It give 621 but suggests rounding down any calculated result.

Do I understand correctly when building Mod Es on Phil 120 rears, you
used 295 on the left and 296 on the right? With 620 ERD Spocalc gives me
297.7 left and 296 right, i.e. the left are the longer. I am assuming I
have it right that the high flange is on the right and the low flange is
on the left, although the data sheet for Phil hubs seems to suggest the
reverse. Maybe you were using older model Phils? But the older 5 speed
road with 48.2mm flanges both sides that they list in Spocalc gives
299.3L 298.2R.

Thanks for the info about the cup. I do side load as you describe to
ensure there is no residual twist.

[MK1000]

Unfortunately I can't view videos on this computer. What does it show?

[MK1000]

Thanks for the perplexing information.

90 makes some sense if the hubs have thick flanges. I think that both
Phil and Paul hubs, being machined not forged, must have relatively
thick flanges. But the Campagnolo Record front hub I will be using has
normal thickness forged flanges.

Well, opposite to you DT spokes are more easily available for me, so if
I want 15/16 and can accept 90 degree elbows, I may as well use DT. Not
sure yet whether to use either, or go with Wheelsmitha.

As for the hubs, I still have to decide between Phil and Paul. I see
Phils have more favourable bracing angles- according to Spocalc, the L/R
tension balances for Paul, Phil, and the old Campagnolos are 58%. 67%,
and 73%. But the Paul hubs seem better sealed and easier for me to
obtain, besides being less expensive.

[jbeattie]

Dramatic chipmunk!

If you have a measured ERD and all the other data points, my memory of spoke length doesn't matter. Just plug in the numbers and go dog go. But, with that said, I just pulled a spoke out of a MA2/Phil front wheel 36 hole 3X gathering dust in my basement, and it is a 295 -- and that puts the spoke end right at the top of the nipple where it ought to be, and in fact, some of the spoke are poking out a little more.

I don't know what the ERD difference is, if any, between the Mod E, E2 and MA2. Also, I never built a wheel on the first, single-eyelet version of the Mod E (which morphed to the E2, but the E continued as a single eyelet rim), so if you have one of those, foggetaboutit. Time to call Andrew. And with a 120mm rear, I'm wondering if I didn't use 295 both sides -- at least for the E2s/MA2. Again, carefully measure ERD and then do your spokecalc. Your numbers will beat my memory every time.

I wouldn't fixate on bend angle. Zillions of Phil wheels have been built with DT spokes -- and Andrew seems to be getting along fine with the Hoshi spokes, which I have never used. Then again, if the Wheelsmiths float your boat, go with them. These days, I don't think there is much difference between quality spokes. It's not like the olden days where there really were bad spokes. Plus, if a spoke breaks, so what. Pop in a new one, and on a 36 spoke/120mm OLD wheel, you can do a quick true and ride forever before you have to put in a spoke. It's not like breaking a spoke on your 16 spoke wonder wheel.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/16/2015 7:42 PM, MK1000 wrote:
> Not sure yet whether to use either, or go with Wheelsmitha.

I once read some advice intended to prevent "paralysis by analysis" - a
malady that sometimes affects me. The advice was that if it's very
difficult to make the choice between two alternatives, it's usually a
sign that the differences are not very important.

IOW, sometimes it's best to just flip a coin and get on with life.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

In the length of this thread, I could have built three sets of wheels, taped five sets of bars and mowed the lawn (it's that warm here -- totally freaky weather). Get some Phils, some Wheelsmith spokes and build the f****** wheels. Ride bike. It's not rocket science. I would make absolutely sure about the ERD, though -- just so you don't have to build the wheels twice. I've done that though, and the only real downside is the extra bottle of beer and maybe another episode of Doc Martin or something else entertaining on Netflix streaming (assuming I have the correct spoke length in my "heritage" spokes).

-- Jay Beattie.

[MK1000]

On 16/02/2015 11:34 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 8:14:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski
> wrote:

>> I once read some advice intended to prevent "paralysis by analysis"
>> - a malady that sometimes affects me. The advice was that if it's
>> very difficult to make the choice between two alternatives, it's
>> usually a sign that the differences are not very important.
>>
>> IOW, sometimes it's best to just flip a coin and get on with life.
>
> In the length of this thread, I could have built three sets of
> wheels

You're not counting the one to three weeks it will take me to get any of
the spoke choices. Nor however much for the hubs. Nor the several
hundred Canadian dollars this will all cost, once shipping, duties and
taxes are added in. I'm not interested in building the same wheels
twice. "Measure twice, cut once" goes beyond just the literal
interpretation.

[MK1000]

On 16/02/2015 8:51 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> I just pulled a spoke out of a MA2/Phil
> front wheel 36 hole 3X gathering dust in my basement, and it is a 295
> -- and that puts the spoke end right at the top of the nipple where
> it ought to be, and in fact, some of the spoke are poking out a
> little more.

Working backwards in Spocalc, for a Phil touring hub with 35mm flange
offsets and 54.7mm flange diameter, with 2.6mm spoke holes, that gives a
613 (294.6mm) or 614mm (295.1mm) ERD. Spocalc reports ERDs of 613 for
MA2, 614 for E2 and Mod E 700C. I believe you implied the latter was
unrealistic.

[jbeattie]

Absolutely get the right sized spokes, but beyond that, it's pretty simple and just involves spending some money. Canada is not Timbuktu. I buy stuff from England, and it comes like clockwork -- and sometimes a duty.

Keep in mind that your difficulty finding parts means that if something goes wrong in the outback, you're f*****. You can get a quick replacement 120mm OLD wheel -- but it will be a track wheel. You'd have to luck in to a Yellow Jersey-like store to find a five speed freewheel -- or any freewheel. Your wheel (with 14/15 DB spokes) might have less dish than a modern 130mm OLD racing wheel, but that doesn't mean you can't stuff it in a pot-hole and need a replacement on the road -- which, in my experience, is how wheels go bad on tour. That and get hit or crashing.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Sir Ridesalot]

There's a shop in Central Ontario that even has NOS 3 speed freewheels. Sometimes you really do get lucky. I got a new pair of freewheel wheels with Dura Ace Dura Ace hubs laced to Mavic GP4 rims with stainless spokes for $50.00 Canadian. NOS Shimano Dura Ace toeclip pedal cleats were $5.00 a pair and NOS Dura Ace AX brake blocks were $2.50 a pair. I got many other great bargains there too. The wheels are 126 spacing.

Then again, can't a person just respace any freewheel wheel to 120 mm by changing washers and nuts and shortening the axle and if needed redishing the rear wheel?

Cheers

[MK1000]

On 17/02/2015 10:25 AM, jbeattie wrote:

> Canada is not Timbuktu.

Are you sure.

DT doesn't distribute 15/16 in Canada, so from an LBS it's a special
order and takes two months. Three weeks is my guess for Hoshis from
Japan, considering there's a week for the shop to get them from Hoshi.
Orders from the US via USPS Priority are never less than one week,
generally more like two. From England is a matter of days via Royal Mail
(maybe a week) or DHL.

Moreover, apart from
http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/html/RetroSL.html
there's maybe one or two custom builders of traditional frames left in
the whole country. There never were more than a handful.

> I buy stuff from England, and it comes like clockwork -- and
> sometimes a duty.
>
> Keep in mind that your difficulty finding parts means that if
> something goes wrong in the outback, you're f*****. You can get a
> quick replacement 120mm OLD wheel -- but it will be a track wheel.
> You'd have to luck in to a Yellow Jersey-like store to find a five
> speed freewheel -- or any freewheel. Your wheel (with 14/15 DB
> spokes) might have less dish than a modern 130mm OLD racing wheel,
> but that doesn't mean you can't stuff it in a pot-hole and need a
> replacement on the road -- which, in my experience, is how wheels go
> bad on tour. That and get hit or crashing.

If I build the wheels reasonably I'm not going to explode any of my hubs
on tour. It takes a lot to get a rim so bad it can't be mostly
straightened. 27" tires could be a problem but (a) I have a folding
spare (b) these wheels will be used locally anyway. I have the other
bicycle for touring.

Looks like I've tapped out this forum and will have to get the extra
info I need to make the decision direct from Phil and Paul: bearing
replacement from Paul, and where to buy and how much they cost from
Phil. I have another wheel I was only going to build later that isn't
suited for 15/16, for which I will automatically use Wheelsmith. Then I
can try the two elbow shapes in both hubs and know which to use.

Thanks to all for the useful info so far.

[jbeattie]

Are you saying this is a 27" wheel? Well, then, forget what I was saying about spoke length. I've been talking about a 700C wheel.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Are you sure you want to be using components that take weeks to arrive?
What's in stock near you, or near where you'll be riding?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[MK1000]

On 17/02/2015 12:47 PM, jbeattie wrote:

> Are you saying this is a 27" wheel?

Yup. I thought it was clear from these being Module E's, but I hadn't
realized there was a 700C version too.

[avag...@gmail.com]

JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ

https://www.google.com/#q=rear+touring+bicycle+wheel+built+with+15%2F16+ga+spokes

no parade....is this a snob one up deal ? retro-finesse ?

on Sheldon on holes let me Brandt...the holes are lubed with Finish Line wax/Teflon 'dry' lube with wheel lounged horizontally on 5 gal bucket...fill holes...allow set then flipover fill the outside....fluid is dripped down a broken spoke shaft if you feel clumsy.

LUBE UR HUB

WHADDYA SAY WE MAKE TODAY NATIONAL LUBE YOUR HUBS DAY ?

[MK1000]

On 17/02/2015 1:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> Are you sure you want to be using components that take weeks to arrive?
> What's in stock near you, or near where you'll be riding?

I don't think there's any shop in Canada that stocks Phils or Pauls,
certainly not freewheel, doubly certainly not 120, although I might be
wrong. Shops only stock 14g straight which they cut, all else ordered
from the distributors, again as far as I know. So I had to buy a box of
100 14/15 DT last time, which should have taken a day or two but was
closer to a week.

[jbeattie]

More like you could get Mod Es in 27" -- particularly in the US, but the Mod E/Elan combo was intended to compete with sew-ups, which are 700C, of course. In 1975, it was considered scary light for a clincher rim and certainly not anything you would take on a tour or, IMO, something you'd want to put on the usual 27" bike -- except maybe one of the 27" Paramounts. My 27" custom touring bike had Super Champ Mod 58s and/or Weinmann Concaves. I built those 4X with a spoke that's a yard long (308?). I still have some if you need them.

When you get done, you will have yourself a very unique wheel.


-- Jay Beattie.

[jbeattie]

This is where we get back in to the Mobius loop of spoke elbow bends, 15/16 spokes, 27" rims, current production 120mm freewheel hubs, etc., etc. He's looking at special order hubs from either Paul and Phil. None of this stuff is locally available. I don't think I can get a 15/16 Wheelsmith or Dt spoke here in PDX, notwithstanding the fact that we have a zillion shops. http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/index.php?category=778 I would have to buy off the internet, e.g. http://www.coloradocyclist.com/dt-swiss-competition-15-16-gauge-spokes

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.