Cartridge bottom brackets

[John B.]

I'm thinking of replacing the old three piece BB on one of my bikes
with a Shimano cartridge bearing and I see that Shimano markets a
UN-26 and UN-55 cartridge bottom bracket. I believe that the UN-26
has a solid spindle and a plastic bushing on the non-drive side while
there is reference to a hollow spindle and steel bushing on the UN-55.
Both are made for the 69 and 73 mm frames and in roughly the same
spindle lengths.

In normal use is there a practical difference? Disregarding the weight
difference, if any, is there a noticeable difference in service life?

The UN-26 seems to be the cheaper version and is quite common in shops
here while the UN-55 is somewhat rare, probably due to price. But if
the UN-55 lasts (for example) five years while the UN-26 only lasts
two years it is probably worth searching out the higher priced
version.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 15:57:46 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>I'm thinking of replacing the old three piece BB on one of my bikes
>with a Shimano cartridge bearing and I see that Shimano markets a
>UN-26 and UN-55 cartridge bottom bracket. I believe that the UN-26
>has a solid spindle and a plastic bushing on the non-drive side while
>there is reference to a hollow spindle and steel bushing on the UN-55.
>Both are made for the 69 and 73 mm frames and in roughly the same
>spindle lengths.

Actually 68 not 69 :-(
]

[AMuzi]

No practical difference and I believe both are hollow
spindle now (earlier less expensive models were solid). In
theory, higher quality bearing on the 55 but neither are
true replaceable cartridge bearings[1]. Nylon vs metal left
cup is an argument without practical relevance and the
outside spacer of either spindle may be removed and thrown
out to no detriment.

[1] A pair of name-brand premium seal cartridge bearings
cost more than either Shimano BB:
http://www.philwood.com/products/bearinghome.php


--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The last one I bought with the plastic didn't even have enough length for an outside spacer as you say to no detriment.

I am now off Chris King and other high end stuff forever. I took my fork into the shop to have the bottom cup (actually little more than a spacer) removed from my Colnago fork and using the Park tool it couldn't remove that cup without deforming it on a damn aluminum shank.

Why should I pay $150 for a King headset when I can get an Orange of near equal quality for $10?

[Robert Liebermann]

I recommend the Tange LN-3922 BB. Made in Japan (unlike Shimanos), high quality, almost suspiciously cheap, good looking, and comes in many widths. I've got it on several bikes; I used to buy Phils for my fanciest bikes, but I like this one better at 1/5 the cost!

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 8:05:01 AM UTC-7, Robert Liebermann wrote:
> I recommend the Tange LN-3922 BB. Made in Japan (unlike Shimanos), high quality, almost suspiciously cheap, good looking, and comes in many widths. I've got it on several bikes; I used to buy Phils for my fanciest bikes, but I like this one better at 1/5 the cost!

There are more and more top grade parts coming out of Taiwan and Japan for a LOT cheaper than the American components that do not appear to me to be any better. While Campy and Chris King headsets are so expensive an FSA is 1/3rd the price. And Origin8 1/5th.

Now without direct experience with the lower price parts I shouldn't talk them up but the price difference is so dramatic that they are certainly worth a try.

[jbeattie]

Going back to BBs and not headsets, the problem with the inexpensive square drive is that they are usually symmetrical/JIS and may not work as well with an older crank that uses an asymmetrical/ISO BB, but the difference is not that meaningful. As for bearing life, super-cheap BBs may die an early death -- but they are super cheap. Note that CK does not make a square drive BB (according to their products page). Phil at <$150 for a "classic" BB is about the top of the range. https://www.universalcycles.com/search.php?q=square+bottom+bracket You really have to work to spend much money on a square drive BB.

My experience was that certain designs were bad news rather than certain models or makers. I went through ISIS BBs like Kleenex regardless of maker. They totally sucked because of the small bearings, even double-row bearings died an early death. I had an FSA CF ISIS crank on an old Cannondale and was happy when that broke (pedal thread inserts separated from crank arm, which started cracking below pedal eye). Octalink was better but now a historical footnote, along with ISIS.

Shimano outboard cup/bearings are great although theoretically imperfect. Press-in BB formats are bad news if you want a no-fuss quiet bike, although after a recent install of mid-fi Endura bearings, my BBs are staying pretty quiet. I don't expect that to last forever. I think using the right Loctite makes a difference. I would have been perfectly happy if technology stopped with threaded outboard bearings.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

Thanks. It is about what I thought so will just go with what I find.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

:-) Are you sure about the made in Japan thing? I find the following
addresses for Tange Seiki :-)

TANGE SEIKI CO., LTD
1-26, Kurumano-cho Nishi, Sakai-ku
Sakai, Osaka, Japan 590-0940
TEL:+81-72-224-9990
FAX:+81-72-224-9991

TANGE SEIKI TAICHUNG CO.,LTD.
NO.18, Gongyegu 10th Rd., Xitun Dist., Taichung City
40755, Taiwan (R.O.C.)
TEL:+886-4-2358-0100
FAX:+886-4-2358-0669

TANGE SEIKI SHENZHEN CO.,LTD.
No. 141, Yin Tai Rd., Daiang St, Baoan Dist., Shenzhen,
Guangdong, China
TEL:+86-755-27742140
FAX:+86-755-27708372

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

It's not Tange's only product.

Blue box BB with natural aluminum cups & white box with
steel cups are both marked 'Made in Japan' as are the
Tange-IRD units. (I assume o.e.m. versions would be made
closer to actual bicycle factories.)

[John B.]

The Tange family seems to have a lot of branches, of which Seiki is
nly one. I believe that Tange bicycle frame tubes are/were rather an
up-market product.

The corporate addresses I posted show a common corporate practice for
Japanese firms. First get started in the home land, then when salaries
and other costs of business rise move to Taiwan and then to more
countries with lower costs of doing business. Shimano, for example,
has plants in Singapore, Malaysia and at least two sites in main land
China.

Minimum salary in Japan is in the US$7.40/hour range and in China it
is approximately US$13.00/day.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[somebody]

On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 15:57:46 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>

Shimano cartridge bearing BB's seem to last forever. Haven't had one
fail yet. And somehow the dirt just doesn't seem to get in. Can't
think of how long its been since on had to be replaced.

I use the cheapest ones I can find, too.

[AMuzi]

Sorry that's not right.
Tange is not an unusual Japanese name. Tange Seiki is
unrelated to Tange Inc. They're both in the Kansai (Osaka)
area but the similarity ends there.

[Andre Jute]

I have both the UN-26 and the UN-55 from Shimano. In Shimano-speak higher numbers mean better, more expensive. But actual price may not be all that much different, depending on what whichever component-pusher I'm shopping bought several container loads of most recently. My -55 for instance, was cheaper than the 26 listed at the same time. Neither was worn out when replaced for other reasons. Neither is serviceable, despite the implication of "cartridge", so I don't know how you would be able to tell if the bearings in the -55 are actually better, short of wearing it out, which is in fact pretty unlikely with a modern BB. In any event you generally have to take what you can get in the axle length you want.

A bottom bracket with a big rep in Europe, and a sub-Shimano price, is the Czech-made Kinex (a buck or two over a tenner, amazing) which I also had on my bikes and found no fault with (these give you a choice between steel, ali and plastic cups, if that matters to you; the designers of my most expensive bike apparently believe the minuscule flex in the plastic in worth having...). Not as pretty as the Shimano but who cares when the whole thing is hidden in the bottom bracket shell? Quite a few more expensively-branded bottom brackets under the fancy dress are in fact this Kinex, including at least one range of Stronglight.

Andre Jute
No boutique components, thank you

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I have never worn out a bottom bracket or a headset. And I don't maintain them all that well. Pulling them out every couple of years, cleaning and greasing them where necessary is all that I have done. I put so many miles on components (except this year dammit) that if there was any particular weakness in these parts I would have spotted it.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Saturday, April 8, 2017 at 1:43:44 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
Snipped

>
> I have never worn out a bottom bracket or a headset. And I don't maintain them all that well. Pulling them out every couple of years, cleaning and greasing them where necessary is all that I have done. I put so many miles on components (except this year dammit) that if there was any particular weakness in these parts I would have spotted it.

Last year a friend got me to come to his place to fix a loose bottom bracket on a bicycle he was given. It was a Shimano cartridge one that I forget the # of but it was very unusual in thatthe spindle had snapped at the shoulder on the left side. I meant to get a picture of the broken parts but he chucked it before i returned later with the camera. I've never heard or seen another cartridge bottom bracket with a broken spindle.

Cheers

[cycl...@gmail.com]

We have to remember that wear and manufacturing errors is something altogether different.

[Sir Ridesalot]

That is true. However I do wish I'd been able to get images of the broken parts as it would have been interesting to discover how and why it broke. like i said, I've never seen or heard of another square taper cartridge bottom braket spindle breaking..

Cheers

[Mark J.]

I think that when square-taper spindles dominated the market, spindle
breakages were common enough.

I broke one at the taper/round junction, just outboard of the bearing
surface, on my tandem (~1990). It didn't separate completely, just
"peeled" partway in a spiral. The effect was of the crank suddenly
tilting so that it gyrated as we pedaled.

I think Jobst wrote that this was the common failure location/mode.

I kept the spindle as a souvenir.

Here is a pardo.net photo collection of similar failures, none quite
like mine: http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/000.html#Bottom%20Bracket

As square-taper spindles become rarer, so will these failures.

Mark J.

[Barry Beams]

On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 1:57:50 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

Yes, Tange's base of operations is in Taiwan. They then use cheap Chinese manufacturing for many of their mundane components. They also made some top of the line steel bicycle frame tubing for serious classics of the past, including bikes like my '92 Schwinn Paramount.
Do not buy from Tange. They are now EVIL.
Tange tried to steal my design back in 2012, costing me six figures in additional costs to bring Oculus to market compared to the licensing deal that Merry Sales signed, then broke when I rejected Tange's cheap crap unauthorized design changes. Tange and Merry Sales intended to do a cheap crap version of my light that would make them a quick buck, then the crap quality would leave me over and done with nothing left to show for it.
So Tange and Merry Sales can rot in hell, but definitely do _Not buy Tange.
Do go with Phil Wood bearings. The Best, for BB's, hubs, anywhere else on the bike.

[Frank Krygowski]

http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-192.html is particularly
informative.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

Not everyone can afford Phil's stuff.

Do you offer a refund if your light does NOT meet a customer;'s needs?

Cheers

[Barry Beams]

Questions like that posted publicly come across as troll bait. What I post here is posted personally. Business inquiries should be directed to He...@OculusLights.net, or call (323) 487-2002 M-F 10:00AM - 8:00PM PST.
Personally, after just finishing light sales and support for another Double Century, today's was the Mulholland Challenge, there a a solid core devout Oculus users who continue to show off and turn on other bikers in a semi-viral sales ratio. No one has had any issues beyond getting the hang of the triple-click switching, or the need to apply the silicone grip tape and pulling the velcro tight to make a fully secure mounting.
The on-site lighting sales and support program with Planet Ultra events is proving to be nicely successful, more than justifying the time and expense. The Mulholland Challenge had four new Oculus users. Two started as rentals, who then chose to keep their lights and buy them.
Two other riders barely on the edge of making the time cutoff at the last rest stop came in very pleased with both their total confidence that they had plenty of battery to finish the event with, and the visibility of the beam on the ten hour burn time setting they were using for their 15 - 20mph steady pace. Plus, they were carrying the spare extra batter that included with every Oculus at no extra charge.
With the ten hour at 20 mph setting on Oculus, plus that the user can quickly replace the battery in the field if needed, few remain to argue that generators are the only way to guarantee all night long lighting. One rider was asking about an Oculus for PBP A rider can go with one battery each night, so three pre-charged spares would be plenty. That's less extra weight than what a generator system and wiring adds, with greater simplicity, no drag on the wheel, and far superior visibility.

[Sir Ridesalot]

You are here marketting your light. You boast about about your light and how great it is but you will not provide a simple yes or no to a simple question about whether you offer a refund if the light is unsatisfactory. Thus I'll stay with product from someone who DOES offer such a warranty.

Cheers

[James]

I still haven't given my lights any attention or thought beyond turning
them on and off. I used my bicycle lights several times for hours at a
time recently while on a 9 day cycling touring holiday, for before
sunrise starts and during bad weather and fog.

No thoughts of silicone grip or velcro, or additional handlebar clutter,
as my front light is securely attached to the fork crown with the front
brake.

I had no issue with extra weight, or the "complexity" of wiring, or even
unnoticeable drag, with totally acceptable visibility.

--
JS

[Andre Jute]

On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 8:30:34 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
>
> I still haven't given my lights any attention or thought beyond turning
> them on and off. I used my bicycle lights several times for hours at a
> time recently while on a 9 day cycling touring holiday, for before
> sunrise starts and during bad weather and fog.
>
> No thoughts of silicone grip or velcro, or additional handlebar clutter,
> as my front light is securely attached to the fork crown with the front
> brake.
>
> I had no issue with extra weight, or the "complexity" of wiring, or even
> unnoticeable drag, with totally acceptable visibility.
>
> --
> JS

You make an interesting point, James.

We can fix the moment exactly when bicycle generator lamps transitioned from being crap (as you could tell from the irrationally passionate defences of dim glimmers here by the dimmer glimmers among the BUMMbuddies) to being adequate. It happened when the BUMM Cyo was first marketed. The Cyo was a lamp no dimmer than VW Beetle lamps from the 6V era, and thus by historical precedent "adequate". There's more to "adequate" bicycle lamps than just enough light output, and shaping it "correctly" to the road, signs, overhead obstructions, not to blind oncoming motorists, not all of which the Cyo actually meets, but then neither did the Beetle (nor, disgracefully, a whole bunch of fast cars from back in the 60s). On balance though the first series Cyo was an eye opener, because it was so shocking how far from sufficiency was every generator lamp before that went before.

But a generator lamp must not only be adequate in the moment to its exigencies, it must be a reliable and constant companion at least till the dawn breaks. And we can fix the moment it became a constant, reliable companion, too. It was when LED light sources appeared to replace limited-life globes. Ironically the generators themselves were always, and certainly in the hub generator age, reliable enough, even the cheapish Sanyo that formed the basis of Shimano's enduring hub generator line.

I think it is great that the other day when a kid inspecting my Cyo asked, "Where's the switch, sir?" I couldn't tell him, because I just leave the thing on whenever the bike moves, so it's been on for years. (Reading the manual on returning home...)

Andre Jute
Illuminati, er, illuminated, er, anyhow, I can see

[John B Slocomb]

At a recent bike show in Bangkok a bunch of Chinese parts makers were
showing their products. I stopped at one stall where guy was showing
head sets and asked him how much a complete 1" head set would be. Of
course he didn't sell one set at a time but in wholesale batches but
he did calculate what one head set would cost a bicycle maker...
US$1.45.

[John B Slocomb]

I've dwelt with the Chinese for forty years or more (I even married
one :-) and they are very pragmatic people. They will make and sell
you just exactly what you ask for. You want quality we got quality.
You want cheap, we got that too.

[John B Slocomb]

On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 20:14:12 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

My guess is that with any quality manufacturer the quality will be the
same regardless of where it is manufactured.

Caterpillar, for example, started making D-6 tractors and 12' graders
in Indonesia some 25 years ago. the quality was exactly the same as
any other Caterpillar tractor no matter where made.

[John B Slocomb]

From what I read in their corporate histories that all started in
1920, or thereabout, when "Yasujiro Tange founded a company that would
become one the most iconic in bicycle industry". Whether they are
closely associated today I have no idea but they all seemed to have
began with Grandfather Tange :-)

[John B Slocomb]

You mean you are making so much money from hawking your lights on
Usenet that you can afford to splash out 6 figures, one assumes a
minimum of 100,000 dollars, on a law suit?

Amazing, and here I thought Usenet was not a commercial venue.

[Duane]

I think if you want to post marketing here as this clearly is, then you
should expect questions about your refund policy.

--
duane

[jbeattie]

Then that solution worked for you. The nice thing about a battery light is that you can use it as a camp light, if you're camping. In bad weather (rain), I also think a flasher is a better DRL. Either a StVZO dyno light or a focused battery light is a decent choice for fog. I certainly wouldn't use a high output flasher or a high output/high spew front light in fog unless I wanted to blind myself.


If I were doing a bicycle vacation, I'd take a battery light so I could take it off the bike. I don't see any reason for hauling lighting equipment around on a sunny day out in the country. My bicycle vacations are typically chasing my son up and down canyons in the Wasatch, so the reduced weight and drag makes it a little easier, if only psychologically. And we always start riding after sun-up, so any light is unnecessary -- and neither of us are DRL kind of guys. It's kind of a non-issue.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

On 4/9/2017 1:49 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 2:41:47 AM UTC-4, Barry Beams wrote:
>> On Saturday, April 8, 2017 at 4:19:59 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>> On Saturday, April 8, 2017 at 5:51:48 PM UTC-4, Barry Beams wrote:
>>>> On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 1:57:50 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

-snippy snip-

> You are here marketting your light.

Clearly and without artifice. You may always touch your
space bar to move along.

> You boast about about your light and how great it is

If Barry is not for Barry, then who shall be for Barry?
If not now, when?

> but you will not provide a simple yes or no to a simple question about whether you offer a refund if the light is unsatisfactory. Thus I'll stay with product from someone who DOES offer such a warranty.

Which is your choice. I suggest an actual retailer which
would greatly facilitate that process.

That said, it's a subjective standard isn't it? I can see
reasonable manufacturers both accepting and also declining
that offer depending on whether they have gargantuan margins
or normal anemic ones, product quality notwithstanding.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/9/2017 11:44 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 12:30:34 AM UTC-7, James wrote:
>>
>> I still haven't given my lights any attention or thought beyond turning
>> them on and off. I used my bicycle lights several times for hours at a
>> time recently while on a 9 day cycling touring holiday, for before
>> sunrise starts and during bad weather and fog.
>>
>> No thoughts of silicone grip or velcro, or additional handlebar clutter,
>> as my front light is securely attached to the fork crown with the front
>> brake.
>>
>> I had no issue with extra weight, or the "complexity" of wiring, or even
>> unnoticeable drag, with totally acceptable visibility.
>

...

>
> If I were doing a bicycle vacation, I'd take a battery light so I could take it off the bike. I don't see any reason for hauling lighting equipment around on a sunny day out in the country.

It was a short solo bicycle tour that convinced me to always have a dyno
lighting system on my touring bike. I had a battery light along, and
planned to use it only around the campground. But brutal hills and a
slow restaurant delayed my campground arrival until after dark. It
turned out the batteries in the light were much closer to empty than I
thought, and in rural areas, there actually isn't a convenience store
every few miles.

Regarding camp lights, flat fixing, map reading, etc.: Once white LEDs
became available, the tiny coin cell LED keychain lights serve me well.
Slightly bigger strap on LED headlamps are luxurious, and I find their
dispersed beam better for those uses compared to the more concentrated
beam of a bike light.

But YMMV.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Yah, I'm not going to bother with a dyno on a tour unless I expect to do a lot of riding at night, which has never been my MO. Riding across the US, I used a Wonder Light, mostly around the campground. I always used battery lights on tours with no problems.

The deal with modern battery lights is that they tell you when they're running out of juice, so there should be no surprises. They need to be recharged, obviously, so dynos will always have that advantage. For most of my riding, a dyno is unnecessary baggage. It has its place on my flying pig commuter, although it doesn't get much use after daylight savings. I just use my flea-watt flasher.


-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

And if you have a battery light you can always go spelunking in Utah in all of the old mines.

[Frank Krygowski]

Batteries are better for spelunking, no doubt. Also for spotting owls.

A year or two ago I took my bike out after dark, just riding around
neighborhoods for fun. As I cut through a cemetery, I saw a barred owl
pass by low in front of me. I stopped and heard another off to the side
in a tree.

I like owls and really wanted to get a look, so I rolled my bike over
toward the tree. I did get to see the owl, but I'll admit that spinning
the front wheel while holding my bike pointed upward was pretty
inconvenient.

So, different lights for different applications.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 23:41:46 -0700 (PDT), Barry Beams
<ba...@barrybeams.com> wrote:

>That's less extra weight than what a generator system and
>wiring adds, with greater simplicity, no drag on the wheel,
>and far superior visibility.

I beg to differ. The added weight of a dynamo system isn't that much.
If you just compare the weight of your Oculus Light, which I believe
is 214 grams with the larger 26850, with the weight of a typical hub
dynamo at about 400 grams, the battery light would certainly be
lighter. However, the hub dynamo replaces an existing hub on the
wheel, and decreases the length of the spokes. If one takes these
weight losses into account, the added weight of a dynamo wheel is only
about 25 grams:
<http://mccraw.co.uk/dynamo-hub-weight/>
The author also covers the power loss issue:
<http://mccraw.co.uk/hub-dynamo-friction/>
Calculations are at the bottom of the page.

Superior visibility is rather subjective and varies by the riders
eyesight, speed (how far ahead the rider needs to see), expected
battery life, beam pattern, lumens, road conditions, weather, fog
penetration, need for side lighting, need for "be seen" type lighting,
need for side lighting, need for overhead (branches) lighting, daytime
flashing, mounting height (recumbent), and so on. Everyone has
different requirements and preferences where "far superior visibility"
may not mean the same thing for different riders and in different
environments.

I also don't agree that a battery powered light offers "greater
simplicity". While the battery light does not have the usual tangle
of wires, it does have the added tasks of juggling batteries or
removing the light from the bicycle for charging. Removing the covers
and extracting the batteries from some battery lights is not easy,
especially when wearing gloves.


Topic drift section:
I've been reading all the wonderful reports of shorting out the
allegedly lossy battery connection spring with solder wick:
<http://budgetlightforum.com/node/22529>
Most everyone reports some increase in light output, especially on
high power flashlights. Just one problem. When I measured the
resistance of the spring with 3 ESR meters and one milliohmmeter, I
got about 0.015 ohms, which is essentially negligible. So, what's
really happening?

Look at the photo of the spring and notice what actually is connecting
to the battery:
<http://s20.postimg.org/hn7uehn0t/Switch_Spring.jpg>
See the sharp edge at the end of the spring wire? That's all that
makes connection. That's because flashlights need to accommodate a
wide variation in 16850/26850 batteries and protected cells. The
result is a very weak spring which does not compress very much with
the shorter cells. This causes a "point contact" between the end of
the spring and the battery, which is highly resistive and lossy. When
soldering a blob of solder on the end of the spring, the contact
surface area is increased, resulting in a much better connection. The
braid bypass does nothing.

I'll be working on documenting this for eventual posting on
Candlepower and BudgetLight Forums. I had some time today and thought
you might be interested should your light have a similar problem.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[James]

We started one morning when it was just light, fresh and quite clear.
Then just as the sun began to warm us we rode into thick fog. The fog
lasted for about 30km or more. Then we emerged from the fog to a clear
day again.

What would you have done? We didn't know there was fog 20km from the
start. You would likely have decided not to "haul lighting equipment
around on a sunny day out in the country", only to find that you needed
it 40 minutes later, then you'd want to take it off again an hour after
that.

What a charade!

--
JS

[jbeattie]

I would do what I actually do, turn on my little low-watt USB blinky that sits on my bars (if too bright in the fog, run it as a fixed light) -- or do nothing. Riding in that kind of weather (and much worse) is what I do every day for half the year or more. On weekend rides, I take my little blinky this time of year. I also wear high viz clothing. More high viz than these guys: http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/features/portland/portland-fog.jpg That was part of my ride yesterday, although less foggy. (a couple of local pros with no lights).

I bought a dynamo two years ago as a science project. In the worst weather, my dyno light is a joke -- and one could easily argue that dyno lights are DANGEROUS! "I had to ride home in pitch dark, driving rain with high winds and blow-down accumulating at my feet and couldn't see a thing with my LUXOS B. How could anyone get by without a battery light?" I could have died! What a charade!

The likelihood that I'm going to put a dyno on my weekend bike(s) to go riding in daylight is zero. I'm also not going to put a rack on my SuperSix although racks are highly useful.

-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

200 postings about generator or battery lights and now the bottom bracket thread get's hijacked to lights?

You guys are all tipsy or something. To read this one would think that no one rides in the daylight.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/9/2017 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> I also don't agree that a battery powered light offers "greater
> simplicity". While the battery light does not have the usual tangle
> of wires, it does have the added tasks of juggling batteries or
> removing the light from the bicycle for charging. Removing the covers
> and extracting the batteries from some battery lights is not easy,
> especially when wearing gloves.

That's really my main point regarding dynamo lights. Battery light
users say "It's simpler than a dynamo! I just have to clamp it on my
handlebar in the right position. Oh, and make sure it's tilted
properly. Of course, I have to remember to keep the battery charged -
or maybe remember how long the disposable batteries have been used.
Sure, if it's too long, I'll have to remember to throw some spare
batteries in my bag. And maybe another little flashlight so I can see
to change them if they burn out. But it's simple!"

Me, I turn on the light when it gets dark, just as when driving my car.
_That's_ simple.

I will admit, installing a dynamo and bolting on a headlight is more of
a project. And after many decades, I've come to realize that lots of
people are baffled by "righty tighty, lefty loosey" let alone things
like Plus and Minus wires.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/10/2017 10:32 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> 200 postings about generator or battery lights and now the bottom bracket thread get's hijacked to lights?

The phrase "highjacking a thread" reminds me of the DVD warnings:
"Piracy is not a victimless crime!"

Um, yes. You should not enter a high-speed power boat carrying AK-47s
and mortars and attack oil freighters to hold their crews hostage for
ransom. Somebody might get hurt! And copying a DVD is just as bad!

A thread is a conversation. Conversations don't normally have referees
yelling "Out of bounds!" If you want to bring a thread back to the
title topic, post something about the title topic.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:09:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/9/2017 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>> I also don't agree that a battery powered light offers "greater
>> simplicity". While the battery light does not have the usual tangle
>> of wires, it does have the added tasks of juggling batteries or
>> removing the light from the bicycle for charging. Removing the covers
>> and extracting the batteries from some battery lights is not easy,
>> especially when wearing gloves.

>That's really my main point regarding dynamo lights. Battery light
>users say "It's simpler than a dynamo! I just have to clamp it on my
>handlebar in the right position. Oh, and make sure it's tilted
>properly. Of course, I have to remember to keep the battery charged -
>or maybe remember how long the disposable batteries have been used.
>Sure, if it's too long, I'll have to remember to throw some spare
>batteries in my bag. And maybe another little flashlight so I can see
>to change them if they burn out. But it's simple!"

I haven't had the problem, but needing a 2nd light (or a match) to
help dig through my junk bag for spare batteries is certainly a
possibility. However, I carry mine wrapped in cellophane wrap (to
prevent shorts) making the batteries easy to find by feel. (Finding
my reading glasses so I can see what's in the bag is more of a problem
for me).

>Me, I turn on the light when it gets dark, just as when driving my car.
>_That's_ simple.

When it gets dark, I theoretically excavate the headlight out of my
junk bag, attach it to the handlebars, and ride off into the sunset. I
say theoretically because I'm a fair-weather cyclist who avoids riding
in the dark.

>I will admit, installing a dynamo and bolting on a headlight is more of
>a project.

I've commented on this in the past. My solution was to suggest that
the frame be pre-wired for dynamo lights at the factory. The trick is
to put the holes in the frame where they do not act as stress risers.
Running wires through transition areas (head tube and seat tube) is
not easy, but it can be done.

If complexity of bicycle lighting is a problem worth solving, methinks
that standardizing on the handlebar mounting would be a big help.
Making the mount a permanent part of the handlebar would be even
better. I once sacrificed an old bent aluminum handlebar and tried to
attach various Pop-Rivet type threaded inserts for mounting lights.
Since the threads don't need to support much weight, tiny 4-40
threaded inserts could be used. It worked, but the handlebars could
not be rotated for the most comfortable position, so I gave up on that
idea. I had the same problem when I tried to attach a DIN rail
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=aluminum+din+rail>
to the handlebars for accessories. It mostly worked, but the
handlebars again could not be rotated.

Assuming I can get past the wiring, drilling, and rotation problems, a
permanent mount for the light, with built in contacts for the wiring,
would go a long way to making both battery and dynamo lighting more
useful. However, it wouldn't sell. Most bicycle owners do not own a
working head or tail light, don't use either, don't ride at night, and
would be seriously offended if the added cost of my proposed wiring
and mounting system was included in the selling price of their
department store bicycle. A feature that is not used by perhaps 95%
of the potential buyers would instantly disappear in the first round
of cost cutting.

So, we're stuck with various clamp mounts, all of which slip, slide,
require rubber inserts that promptly disappear, or have self
destructing "quick release" locks. At least they perform the prime
objective, which is to not scratch the handlebar finish.

>And after many decades, I've come to realize that lots of
>people are baffled by "righty tighty, lefty loosey" let alone things
>like Plus and Minus wires.

Yep. One has to get experience in such things at an early age because
learning such basics when older is difficult. At one company, I joked
that perhaps we should write the user manual in comic book format.
Instead of instant rejection, the idea was taken seriously and bounced
around upper management for months. It was eventually rejected
because of the high cost of hiring a professional illustrator (this
was before computah graphics).

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 07:32:51 -0700 (PDT), cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

>200 postings about generator or battery lights and now the
>bottom bracket thread get's hijacked to lights?

Barry Beams posted his experience with Tange as a company using his
headlight as an example. That started several discussions about
bicycle lighting. Such things happen and are often more interesting
than the original topic.

The real problem is that everyone tends to move the topic over to
areas in which they are interested or experienced. Most of my
comments are about lighting and psychology. Others will appear out of
the woodwork should you mention their favorite keyword. In another
newsgroup that I read, all (and I do mean all) discussions that start
off on a technical topic, drift into global warming or Trump bashing
within about 5 postings. Like the Ouija Board, nobody really
intentionally "hijacks" a thread, but many unconsciously push it
towards their preferred direction.

>You guys are all tipsy or something. To read this one would
>think that no one rides in the daylight.

Some things are best done under cover of darkness.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:09:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>Me, I turn on the light when it gets dark, just as when driving my car.
>_That's_ simple.

I may have found the source of the problem:
<http://yehudamoon.com/comic/2017-03-15/>

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/10/2017 12:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:09:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>
>> I will admit, installing a dynamo and bolting on a headlight is more of
>> a project.
>
> I've commented on this in the past. My solution was to suggest that
> the frame be pre-wired for dynamo lights at the factory. The trick is
> to put the holes in the frame where they do not act as stress risers.
> Running wires through transition areas (head tube and seat tube) is
> not easy, but it can be done.

Actually, the first "10 speed" I ever bought had that internal wiring.
It was 1972, and I saw a German made "Staiger" for sale in a drug store.
(The tiny rural town I was working in had no bike shop.) IIRC, the
single wire entered the frame behind the bottom bracket and exited near
the head tube.

> If complexity of bicycle lighting is a problem worth solving, methinks
> that standardizing on the handlebar mounting would be a big help.
> Making the mount a permanent part of the handlebar would be even
> better.

I wouldn't like that. I have handlebar bags on almost every bike. I
find them almost indispensable. They make it difficult to use a light
mounted there.

Besides, I'm convinced a headlight mounted at about 24" to 28" high is
optimum. (See? We can argue about anything here!)

> I once sacrificed an old bent aluminum handlebar and tried to
> attach various Pop-Rivet type threaded inserts for mounting lights.
> Since the threads don't need to support much weight, tiny 4-40
> threaded inserts could be used. It worked, but the handlebars could
> not be rotated for the most comfortable position, so I gave up on that
> idea. I had the same problem when I tried to attach a DIN rail
> <https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=aluminum+din+rail>
> to the handlebars for accessories. It mostly worked, but the
> handlebars again could not be rotated.

I'd be very wary of drilling holes in a handlebar for any purpose. I
hate to channel Mr. Scharf, but I do know a guy who crashed badly when
his supposedly "aero" bars, with holes for cables, suddenly broke at a
hole during a sprint. Obviously a sudden fatigue failure triggered by
the stress concentration caused by the hole.

> So, we're stuck with various clamp mounts, all of which slip, slide,
> require rubber inserts that promptly disappear, or have self
> destructing "quick release" locks. At least they perform the prime
> objective, which is to not scratch the handlebar finish.

I've read that British bikes in days of yore used to come with standard
"lamp brackets" on the right front fork. But that was back when bikes
were expected to be useful.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[James]

Now now, Jay. You wouldn't want to haul that blinky around on a sunny day.

Think of the unnecessary wind resistance!

--
JS

[Barry Beams]

On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 1:57:50 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

> I'm thinking of replacing the old three piece BB on one of my bikes
> with a Shimano cartridge bearing and I see that Shimano markets a
> UN-26 and UN-55 cartridge bottom bracket. I believe that the UN-26
> has a solid spindle and a plastic bushing on the non-drive side while
> there is reference to a hollow spindle and steel bushing on the UN-55.
> Both are made for the 69 and 73 mm frames and in roughly the same
> spindle lengths.
>
> In normal use is there a practical difference? Disregarding the weight
> difference, if any, is there a noticeable difference in service life?
>
> The UN-26 seems to be the cheaper version and is quite common in shops
> here while the UN-55 is somewhat rare, probably due to price. But if
> the UN-55 lasts (for example) five years while the UN-26 only lasts
> two years it is probably worth searching out the higher priced
> version.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

@Ridesalot, you proved you're the troll your message came across as.
I told you to inquire privately. You acted like the douche bag you are, with more non-constructive public banter. You continued in typical troll manner publicly to make a public spectacle of yourself rather than serving any use purpose, by your efforts to extort words out of other people's mouths under you implied, and then acted on, implied threat of defamation and libel if your intended victim won't act as you try to extort. The unsuitability here is you as a prospective customer. You, like anyone else, are welcome to call PRIVATELY to Oculus Lighting, to inquire on any aspect of the lifetime warranty or anything else about the product.

[jbeattie]

If it weighed a pound, I'd leave it at home. And I often don't carry any light in summertime. Like most of the herd, I just get on my bike and ride lightless. I still run a flasher commuting, though, because of the traffic and route.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Sincethen I've read reviuews about you and your behaviour and decided NEVER to buy anything from you!

You can't even answer a simple question with either a yes or no yet you persist in flogging your product on an open forum. When you flog a product on an open forum then expect people to ask questions about the product or warranty.

Idiot!

Cheers

[John B Slocomb]

Why in the would anyone want to call privately when you are all over
Usenet touting your stuff.

If it is all right for you to advertise your products here it must
logically be equally correct for anyone that disagrees with you to
post here also.

What is it that you feel proper? You advertise here but anyone that
has a complaint about you or your produce has to call you privately?

[John B Slocomb]

By gorry but it warms the cockles of my heart to read your
denunciation of Sir with whom I was conducting a conversation about a
UN-26 Bottom Bracket.

I'll bet that you thought that when we used the abbreviation "BB" we
were talking about good old Beaming Berry. Sorry to disappoint you but
you see a "BB" is a commonly used abbreviation for the thingy there
that the pedals are hooked to.

It comes as somewhat of a surprise to see anyone posting on a bicycle
group so ignorant about bicycles as to confuse a bottom bracket with
one's self. Or is it simply the gigantic ego that equates "BB" with
the "Beaming Berry"?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Calm down Barry. No one here gives more than a nodding belief in anything someone describing himself as "ridesalot".

What sort of person do you suppose would try to remain anonymous on a site like this? He's probably 250 lbs, 5'5" and his idea of "alot" is 15 miles a month.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

That's called advertising. It shouldn't be so blatant but so what? You and I can jump over the posting as soon as we see what it's about.

In the last posting Andre made an off-hand comment about a staggeringly great story I read. If he wrote that he should sure as hell be advertising it.

[Mark J.]

Clearly Barry went to the United Airlines school of customer relations.

Mark J.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:25:07 AM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
Snipped

>
> Calm down Barry. No one here gives more than a nodding belief in anything someone describing himself as "ridesalot".
>
> What sort of person do you suppose would try to remain anonymous on a site like this? He's probably 250 lbs, 5'5" and his idea of "alot" is 15 miles a month.

Oh my goodness! Thanks for the alughs! you missed on the weight, the height and the miles. I use "ridesalot because I put on over a hundred kilometers EVERY WEEK and I ride off road as well as trails through forested areas. that's not to mention the tours I go one.

As far as not using my real name on Usent; well there are some really weird people out there that I don't want knowing my real name.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

You should get a St. Christopher medal. (He's the patron saint of
travelers.)

Just as effective, weighs less, and infinite battery life.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Duane]

Wait a minute. Cyclingtom is jumping on ridesalot for using a pseudonym?

[Radey Shouman]

But "cyclingtom" is a *good* pseudonym.

--

[AMuzi]

Many here remember Tom's prior email address with his full
name in it.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[cycl...@gmail.com]

As far as that distance is concerned I would normally (except for this year) put in over 200 km a week. And I'm 72,

If you don't like being attacked for your actions don't attack others as an anonymous source. That makes you one of those really weird people that bother you.

Our friend BB isn't welcome to post advertisements everywhere but he hasn't overcooked it and is easy enough to ignore.

[Duane]

Yeah, I know but it still seems an odd complaint.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

This system no longer allows me to see my complete address other than "me" but in the past it plainly said Tom Kunich (cycl...@yahoo.com).

[cycl...@gmail.com]

And what is less anonymous than a common Croatian name that at least a dozen people in the US have? Even a man in my own city has the same name though his is a shortened version of his original Croat name. The name means "little horse".

[John B Slocomb]

Your message header reads:
"From: cycl...@gmail.com" Which seems logical :-)

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 5:56:29 PM UTC-7, John B Slocomb wrote:
>
> Your message header reads:
> "From: cycl...@gmail.com" Which seems logical :-)

Well, I can't figure our how to get it to display my name. It shows my name on my google account and for all the rest of you all I see is your names.

[Doug Landau]

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:44:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

Johnny Sunset?

[John B Slocomb]

I believe that it is whatever application you are using to post
messages, or how you have configured it. I looked at Andrew's, Frank's
and Sir's posts and they all include a "From: " line in the message
header as in "From: AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>" while your posts read
"From: cycl...@gmail.com"

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I'm using Chrome and my account lists my name plainly. I look at the set-up and there's nothing in there that could affect the display from your end. It only allows me to set larger typeface and the like. The only possible thing says "Your email address is currently not flagged as bouncing."

[John B Slocomb]

I don't know as I have always used a dedicated news reader for Usenet
but we might ask Andrew and Frank what they use as their posts include
their name in the From: line in the headers.

[James]

On 12/04/17 02:37, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:25:07 AM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com
> wrote: Snipped
>>
>> Calm down Barry. No one here gives more than a nodding belief in
>> anything someone describing himself as "ridesalot".
>>
>> What sort of person do you suppose would try to remain anonymous on
>> a site like this? He's probably 250 lbs, 5'5" and his idea of
>> "alot" is 15 miles a month.
>
> Oh my goodness! Thanks for the alughs! you missed on the weight, the
> height and the miles. I use "ridesalot because I put on over a
> hundred kilometers EVERY WEEK and I ride off road as well as trails
> through forested areas. that's not to mention the tours I go one.
>

"a lot" seems a considerable exaggeration. SirRidesABit more like.

--
JS

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 5:57:08 PM UTC-4, James wrote:
Snipped

> "a lot" seems a considerable exaggeration. SirRidesABit more like.
>
> --
> JS

James likes to post bullshit comments. PLON!

Cheerio

[James]

DILLIGAF?

--
JS

[James]

On 18/04/17 08:09, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

FWIW I was not bull shitting. 100km per week might be "a lot" for some
people, but in my sphere of riding friends, it is likely a single ride
is 100km or possibly considerably more.

I used to ride about 500km per week, and I know guys doing 700-800km weeks.

Cheerio Sir Anonymous Rides A Bit.

[Duane]

In Canadian winter, at least Ontario and Québec, 100km per week would be
significant. I might do 4 or 500 a week in the summer but I ski in the
winter here. My winter cycling consists of spinning or my trainer in the
basement.

--
duane

[John B Slocomb]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 08:26:53 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Dilligaf? Is that an Aussie word like "tinnie" or "roo" :-?

[John B Slocomb]

I wish you guys wouldn't snip so much out of the messages you reply
to. From the above "SirRidesABit more like".... More like what?

:-)

[James]

Acronym for "do I look like I give a fuck".

--
JS

[John B Slocomb]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 18:31:12 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On 18/04/17 13:29, John B Slocomb wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 08:26:53 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/04/17 08:09, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 5:57:08 PM UTC-4, James wrote:
>>>> Snipped
>>>>> "a lot" seems a considerable exaggeration. SirRidesABit more like.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> JS
>>>>
>>>> James likes to post bullshit comments. PLON!
>>>>
>>>> Cheerio
>>>>
>>>
>>> DILLIGAF?
>>
>> Dilligaf? Is that an Aussie word like "tinnie" or "roo" :-?
>>
>
>Acronym for "do I look like I give a fuck".

One has to ask :-)

[AMuzi]

I had to look that up :
http://www.acronymfinder.com/DILLIGAF.html

[Andrew Chaplin]

John B Slocomb <sloc...@inop.org> wrote in
news:5mobfct28kl9sdbjr...@4ax.com:

That depends on your upbringing. I misspent my yout' in the Canadian army,
so I learned of "DILLIGAF" early on.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Until this year my normal riding week was a minimum of 150 miles. We have had a lot of rain, I have had a crash or two and I have had to escort my older brother to the eye doctor every other day for several months and now I am having eye surgery. But I'll soon be back in the saddle.

No matter who you are there are ALWAYS others that ride more than you do every week or year. Some Italian that rides 10,000 miles per year when they have long and hard winters certainly made my 10,000 miles a year look like a breeze.

[jbeattie]

Racking up miles can become neurotic or compulsive behavior, particularly for a non-racer. It's like Rain Man on a bike.

Listening to current racers and reading the Velo News articles, the notion that riding zillions of miles will make you fast isn't true. In the '70s, that was training. More miles! It's a lot more scientific now, although some of my son's cohorts still rack up big miles.

Speaking of my son, he was in a race last week near Salt Lake -- sort of an ordinary road race with a lot of categories and a fair-sized total pack. It certainly wasn't a big regional race. Anyway, Utah has a pro team, Canyon -- a bike shop team (not the bike maker) that signed former superstar and blood-doper Francisco Mancebo. So Francisco was there. Gawd, how depressing to be some former Eurostar riding for a bike shop team in a 60-70 mile local race. I think I would quit and get a regular job.

-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Jay, very often these kids (I'm 72 - Mancebo is a kid) have little to no education. While some take naturally to learning others do not. This may be the most money he can make.

And no matter how scientific you get the greater part of training is miles.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/19/2017 1:52 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 9:21:33 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 3:09:08 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 5:57:08 PM UTC-4, James wrote:
>>> Snipped
>>>> "a lot" seems a considerable exaggeration. SirRidesABit more like.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> JS
>>>
>>> James likes to post bullshit comments. PLON!
>>
>> Until this year my normal riding week was a minimum of 150 miles. We have had a lot of rain, I have had a crash or two and I have had to escort my older brother to the eye doctor every other day for several months and now I am having eye surgery. But I'll soon be back in the saddle.
>>
>> No matter who you are there are ALWAYS others that ride more than you do every week or year. Some Italian that rides 10,000 miles per year when they have long and hard winters certainly made my 10,000 miles a year look like a breeze.
>
> Racking up miles can become neurotic or compulsive behavior, particularly for a non-racer. It's like Rain Man on a bike.
>
> Listening to current racers and reading the Velo News articles, the notion that riding zillions of miles will make you fast isn't true. In the '70s, that was training. More miles! It's a lot more scientific now, although some of my son's cohorts still rack up big miles.

Vaguely related to big miles for training: We saw the movie _My Italian
Secret: The Forgotten Heroes_ about World War 2 Italians who risked
their lives and reputations to save the lives of Jews in their
communities.

Prominent among the heroes was Gino Bartali, Tour de France winner, who
used his big training miles to hide his role as a courier for this
resistance movement. Not a bad movie.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Indeed, Gino was someone that came very close to being caught several times. He would carry communications on the movements of the Jews in a tube in his seatpost. Lucky thing that most people rode old clunkers that made all sorts of noises and the Fascists didn't notice the extra noises.

[Robert Latest]

John B wrote:
> The UN-26 seems to be the cheaper version and is quite common in shops
> here while the UN-55 is somewhat rare, probably due to price. But if
> the UN-55 lasts (for example) five years while the UN-26 only lasts
> two years it is probably worth searching out the higher priced
> version.

Both will last more like 20 years in my experience. I've never had one
break. I prefer the 55 for reasons of aesthetics.

robert

[AMuzi]

In that case, you should have used the Campagnolo ACH111:

https://www.craigslist.org/about/best/wdc/212946173.html

[Andre Jute]

Soon you won't be reading anyone on this forum, Rideablot.

Andre Jute
Oh woe!

[Andre Jute]

Yeah. I remember someone posting links here to stories about the early TdF riders, for whom racing (and doping -- its nothing new) was the only escape from truly grinding interwar poverty. IIRC, at the time Jobst, who'd known some of these early racers when they turned brazier, seemed to confirm those stories.

Andre Jute
History repeats itself -- well, almost.