new gear system

[AMuzi]

http://velotegra.com/wordpress1/home/

Be sure to click the patent link and read description on
page 24.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/16/2016 6:18 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> http://velotegra.com/wordpress1/home/
>
> Be sure to click the patent link and read description on page 24.

Is it for people who think a Rohloff is too simple?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[bob prohaska]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 5/16/2016 6:18 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> http://velotegra.com/wordpress1/home/
>>
>> Be sure to click the patent link and read description on page 24.
>
> Is it for people who think a Rohloff is too simple?
>
>

I can't help but think it's the work of a humorist, but I haven't
found the punchline yet.

bob prohaska

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 16 May 2016 17:18:25 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>http://velotegra.com/wordpress1/home/
>
>Be sure to click the patent link and read description on
>page 24.

I read some of the patent and was left wondering if it can be made to
work. It seems excessively complicated. What I noticed missing from
the web pages are photos of the completed planetary gear drive,
specifications, gear ratios, gear range, efficiency tests, test rides,
and such. In other words, all the usual stuff needed to convince
skeptics like me that the device actually exists.
"One of the most promising applications of the Sprocket Hub
design is the direct-drive recumbent bicycle (shown above but
with an earlier single-speed hub)"

More of the same (that seems to exist):
<https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1941379991/kervelo-bike-and-tilting-trike>
<http://www.gizmag.com/kervelo-front-wheel-drive-recumbent-bike/41486/>
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Andrew Chaplin]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in news:nhdgoq$pu6$1...@dont-email.me:

> http://velotegra.com/wordpress1/home/
>
> Be sure to click the patent link and read description on
> page 24.
>

Interesting. He's incorporated in Canada.
<https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDtls.html?corpId=
9466916>
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[avag...@gmail.com]

Question is why ?

more is not less
when less is more

POWER TRANSMISSION FRICTION IN BICYCLE DESIGN

UTUBE ! who goes on video

The mores or the lessors ?

try: genaro tabag

[AMuzi]

On 5/16/2016 8:18 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/16/2016 6:18 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> http://velotegra.com/wordpress1/home/
>>
>> Be sure to click the patent link and read description on
>> page 24.
>
> Is it for people who think a Rohloff is too simple?
>
>

or for people (unlike me on my fixie) who haven't yet found
The Right Gear.

[avag...@gmail.com]

right n foundation for a General Rule

finding a Right Gear
is easiest with 16 gears
than 36



https://goo.gl/yasCGA

ad nauseum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Less_is_more

[Andre Jute]

Ettore Bugatti expected the people who bought his cars to have a heated motor house, with a live-in mechanic.

Maybe this guy is Ettore reborn for another age, most likely not. As Jeff says, there isn't enough information to form a judgement.

Meanwhile I'll stick by Jeremy Bentham and Bernd Rohloff.

Andre Jute
Complication isn't utility, nor beauty. Something more is required.

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/pict/221728480272_1.jpg

Rohloff n https://goo.gl/YOeOFQ

[Andre Jute]

This is a fine example of what makes you so unreliable, Franki-boy, that you bluster about things of which you know nothing.

A Rohloff hub gearbox isn't complicated at all to those who take the minimal trouble to inform themselves before they speak. It is an epicyclic gearbox, like every other bike hub gearbox, and there are two of these epicyclic gearboxes end to end. Beyond that the Rohloff is piece of German agricultural engineering (literally; it was designed for mud pluggers and riding on sand dunes on your honeymoon) with every aspect thought through with great rationality and then solidly built. Idiots like you only see complication because you expect it. The complication you can see in a Rohloff is your psychomatic* disease, Franki-boy, no one else's.

Andre Jute
*My spelling checker wants to change "psychosomatic" to "psychotic" -- and for the first time is half right, for Frank-boy is surely psychotic as well. But, in this instance, psychosomatic is more precise.

[pure...@pacbell.net]

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 10:02:36 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> On Mon, 16 May 2016 17:18:25 -0500, AMuzi ey.org> wrote:
>
> >http://velotegra.com/wordpress1/home/
> >
> >Be sure to click the patent link and read description on
> >page 24.
>
> I read some of the patent and was left wondering if it can be made to
> work. It seems excessively complicated. What I noticed missing from
> the web pages are photos of the completed planetary gear drive,
> specifications, gear ratios, gear range, efficiency tests, test rides,
> and such. In other words, all the usual stuff needed to convince
> skeptics like me that the device actually exists.
> "One of the most promising applications of the Sprocket Hub
> design is the direct-drive recumbent bicycle (shown above but
> with an earlier single-speed hub)"
>
> More of the same (that seems to exist):
> <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1941379991/kervelo-bike-and-tilting-trike>
> <http://www.gizmag.com/kervelo-front-wheel-drive-recumbent-bike/41486/>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann j

> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Thanks for those links...the Kervelo looks interesting...I'm assuming it's Dutch?

One thing that's not mentioned...and I did see a little evidence of it in the video...but when your pedals are attached to the front wheel a la tricycle of our youth, there is the un-intended steering effect until you get used to it.

I had it happen to me when I rode my friend's 1888 Columbia...but you learn to compensate easily enough.

I like oddball gearing so right away my mind went to "What would a pinion coupled to a Rohloff be like? (but I guess it would violate the Rohloff chain ring ratio restrictions--a Schlumpf/Rohloff would work, though.).

Now I want to go read up on the Pinion...I had not realized that it had actually made it out to a product. Seems like it could be mistaken for a Bosch mid drive as well...Hmm..combine the two for a "powered pinion".

I guess there are still things left out there to patent after all.

pH

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 17 May 2016 08:48:59 -0700 (PDT), pure...@pacbell.net wrote:

>On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 10:02:36 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>> <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1941379991/kervelo-bike-and-tilting-trike>
>> <http://www.gizmag.com/kervelo-front-wheel-drive-recumbent-bike/41486/>

>the Kervelo looks interesting...I'm assuming it's Dutch?

The missing link:
<http://www.kervelo-bike.com>
Norway methinks. At the end of the first video, he gives thanks to
the City of Sandvika. However, it might be Sweden, because he's
asking for contribution on his Kickstarter page in Swedish Krona (Kr).
However, he offers free rides to contributors in the Oslo and
Stavanger Norway areas.

<https://youtu.be/05U4FqJlbJQ>
Starting at 2:15, it does look like there's a little torque turning
the front wheel side to side. It gets worse near the end when he's
going much faster. As expected, there's no closeup of the gear hub,
internals, exploded view, cleaning instructions, etc. which would give
a better clue as to what's going on underneath the steel covers.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com

[John B.]

On Mon, 16 May 2016 22:02:40 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 16 May 2016 17:18:25 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>http://velotegra.com/wordpress1/home/
>>
>>Be sure to click the patent link and read description on
>>page 24.
>
>I read some of the patent and was left wondering if it can be made to
>work. It seems excessively complicated. What I noticed missing from
>the web pages are photos of the completed planetary gear drive,
>specifications, gear ratios, gear range, efficiency tests, test rides,
>and such. In other words, all the usual stuff needed to convince
>skeptics like me that the device actually exists.
> "One of the most promising applications of the Sprocket Hub
> design is the direct-drive recumbent bicycle (shown above but
> with an earlier single-speed hub)"
>
>More of the same (that seems to exist):
><https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1941379991/kervelo-bike-and-tilting-trike>
><http://www.gizmag.com/kervelo-front-wheel-drive-recumbent-bike/41486/>

Somewhere I've seen a system that used balls instead of teeth to
produce a "gear system"but for the life of me I can't remember where.
Of course there are overrunning clutches that work in a similar manner
but transfer motion only one direction.
--
cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

AJ, Rolloff stands at the Gate.

expect a periodic shower of rocks n garbage

[avag...@gmail.com]

aha ! a wiki....maybe someone did
my homework for a numbered list of qualifying
designs.

the elliptical CR was in comeback mode...any street sightings ?

[avag...@gmail.com]

ooooooooooooo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_drivetrain_systems

[Andre Jute]

I dunno WTF you're on about this time either, Daniels: you're too obscure (or more probably obtuse) for me. What "Gate" (with a capital yet!)? Is the gate allegorical, metaphorical, or just Valley Girl dimbo*-mimbo from the moom pitcher end of the San Fernando? If the last, as in Stargate, you have the gate dead wrong, because on the other side of it were no rocks, nor garbage, only sand.

Andre Jute
How deliberate befuddling is done

*The next word from me to appear in a dictionary somewhere, a dimbo being a transgender dumbo/bimbo, incoherently portentous as the type is wont to be, hence the onomatopaeic inclusion of mumbo-jumbo. Pity I couldn't work in abacadabra as well. Maybe next time. Hold your helmets.

[James]

On 18/05/16 11:19, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 1:31:33 AM UTC+1, avag...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 9:16:54 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>
>>> This is a fine example of what makes you so unreliable,
>>> Franki-boy, that you bluster about things of which you know
>>> nothing.
>>>
>>> A Rohloff hub gearbox isn't complicated at all to those who take
>>> the minimal trouble to inform themselves before they speak. It is
>>> an epicyclic gearbox, like every other bike hub gearbox, and
>>> there are two of these epicyclic gearboxes end to end. Beyond
>>> that the Rohloff is piece of German agricultural engineering
>>> (literally; it was designed for mud pluggers and riding on sand
>>> dunes on your honeymoon) with every aspect thought through with
>>> great rationality and then solidly built. Idiots like you only
>>> see complication because you expect it. The complication you can
>>> see in a Rohloff is your psychomatic* disease, Franki-boy, no one
>>> else's.
>>>
>>

>> AJ, Rolloff stands at the Gate.
>>
>> expect a periodic shower of rocks n garbage
>
> I dunno WTF you're on about this time either, Daniels: you're too
> obscure (or more probably obtuse) for me. What "Gate" (with a capital
> yet!)? Is the gate allegorical, metaphorical, or just Valley Girl
> dimbo*-mimbo from the moom pitcher end of the San Fernando? If the
> last, as in Stargate, you have the gate dead wrong, because on the
> other side of it were no rocks, nor garbage, only sand.
>

Perhaps the Gate is between greatness and madness?

Wild guess.

--
JS

[Andre Jute]

Perhaps Daniels will cut off his ear and actually produce something from beyond the Gate, or start slapping his feet down especially loudly when he walks in order to hear which side is up so he can keep his balance*, and then we'll know.

Hey, Gene, what does the Gate have to do with cycling? Or is it only to do with Eastern Cycling. You know, Ommmm, ommmmmmmm.

AJ
*That's how people knew Lenin madness ("There are not enough executions!") was driven by syphilis; only later did they discover the other telltale, that Krupskaya dosed him with arsenic. If you've ever wondered how come Lenin's body is so beautifully preserved, requiring re-embalming only every few years, his posterity has the arsenic to thank for his perenially youthful visage.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/17/2016 7:37 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> Somewhere I've seen a system that used balls instead of teeth to
> produce a "gear system"but for the life of me I can't remember where.
> Of course there are overrunning clutches that work in a similar manner
> but transfer motion only one direction.

ISTR that Major Taylor, the champion track racer of the early 1900s,
used a shaft drive (or "chainless") on which the bevel gears were
replaced by roller mechanisms. But that's a dim memory.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

The faint recollection was of something other than a bicycle.
--
cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

The Gate is between bicycles and toys

[avag...@gmail.com]

Lieb. You know the question arises after percolating ... is there..I think of Tesla...a common parallel in electronics to these imaginative dead ends at a 'better bicycle' ?

Example, think of ten still born electric motor designs producing less power/cost after years/$$ development.

[AMuzi]

http://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/gallery/sea-otter-day-3-batch-2/sea-otter-2010-6822-cxmagazine_1.jpg

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://a2.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fit,cs_srgb,dpr_1.0,h_1200,q_80,w_1200/MTE5NTU2MzE2MjMyNDUxNTk1.jpg

[Jeff Liebermann]

Certainly. The mechanism for any speculative venture is much the
same, no matter what the technology. Find a need, throw something
together to attract investors, built it, and then everyone sues
everyone else. It doesn't matter if it's a bicycle or an electric
car. If the need is lacking, hire the government to provide a
suitable crisis and interim financing. If you can find a need for a
bigger, better, faster, cheaper, etc bicycle, you too can be as
successful at Tesla.

[Jeff Liebermann]

NuVinci Continuously Variable Transmission.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NuVinci_Continuously_Variable_Transmission>
<http://www.fallbrooktech.com>

[avag...@gmail.com]

AE6KS

gnaw... with x hp transmission design ABC has A friction area giving (-.5x hp) n when all friction factors are added in the total design of all available design then produces X-1.3X

this is what these gizmos do right off the drawing board.

so why build it ?

my tentative conclusion is these builders suffer from a common irrationality, a mental dysfnction caused by disassociation from the product..

they are mechanically neurotic.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 18 May 2016 08:52:01 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:

>gnaw... with x hp transmission design ABC has A friction area giving (-.5x hp) n when all friction factors are added in the total design of all available design then produces X-1.3X
>
>this is what these gizmos do right off the drawing board.
>
>so why build it ?

To get rid of the bicycle chain. It's an old story with bicycle
design. After 150+ years of conventional bicycle design, the machine
is quite well optimized. It's therefore impossible to improve one
part of a bicycle, without affecting other parts to compensate. It's
not difficult to see the compensating problems. Just look for what
*ELSE* has changed on the machine. For example, you noticed that
there's some side torque on the handlebars while pedaling. On flat
ground, a rider can learn to compensate for this inefficiency, but on
a hill climb, where the side torque is much greater, it can become
seriously tiring. Also, notice the rather short (crossed) spokes on
the front wheel. That's going to produce a rather rough ride and will
probably require adding a suspension. So, the designer improved the
machine by removing the chain, but compromised steering comfort and
ride.

>my tentative conclusion is these builders suffer from a common irrationality, a mental dysfnction caused by disassociation from the product..
>
>they are mechanically neurotic.

I suggest that you reserve judgment until you've seen their ideas. If
you look at the history of bicycle design, you'll probably seen many
aberrations and abominations. As a whole, they're probably
impractical and unsellable. However, there are some genuinely good
ideas among the lot worth emulating, building, and selling:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=strange+bicycles&tbm=isch>
Well, maybe just a few...

[sms]

On 5/18/2016 11:15 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> I suggest that you reserve judgment until you've seen their ideas. If
> you look at the history of bicycle design, you'll probably seen many
> aberrations and abominations. As a whole, they're probably
> impractical and unsellable. However, there are some genuinely good
> ideas among the lot worth emulating, building, and selling:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=strange+bicycles&tbm=isch>
> Well, maybe just a few...

You forgot:

<http://img.gizmag.com/tretta.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&h=670&q=60&w=1000&s=9e5962e11c092cacd21377774aba5757>

<http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae154/murray-eliminator/internet%20bikes/twowheeldrivebike.jpg>

<http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0007W86IE>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 18 May 2016 12:22:54 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 5/18/2016 11:15 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> I suggest that you reserve judgment until you've seen their ideas. If
>> you look at the history of bicycle design, you'll probably seen many
>> aberrations and abominations. As a whole, they're probably
>> impractical and unsellable. However, there are some genuinely good
>> ideas among the lot worth emulating, building, and selling:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=strange+bicycles&tbm=isch>
>> Well, maybe just a few...

>You forgot:

With these examples, I'm glad that I didn't remember. Some great
ideas are best forgotten.

><http://img.gizmag.com/tretta.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&h=670&q=60&w=1000&s=9e5962e11c092cacd21377774aba5757>

Instead of eliminating the chain, the Tretta adds 3 more chains. More
like a giant step backwards. Since all wheel drive only does
something useful when both wheels are on the ground and have traction,
the all wheel drive is totally useless once either wheel leaves the
ground or slips in rain or mud. However, it might be useful on sand
with bigger diameter tires. Looks like a solution to a non-problem.

><http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae154/murray-eliminator/internet%20bikes/twowheeldrivebike.jpg>

2 wheel drive, which adds a giant speedometer cable front drive
instead of added chain drives. Same problems at the Tretta. Lose
ground contact and all the technology does nothing.

><http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0007W86IE>

Helical gear drive to a shaft in the right seat tube, which drives a
speedo cable in the seat tube, which then drives another drive shaft
and helical gear in the front fork.
<http://www.fourwheeler.com/events/131-0601-2005-camp-jeep-pennsylvania/>
<http://www.overstock.com/Sports-Toys/Jeep-Rubicon-Sport-Mountain-Bike/2281507/product.html>
If Jeep added powered training wheels, they could advertise it a 4
wheel drive bicycle. Aluminum frame, but I couldn't find how much it
weighs.

Thanks for the entertainment. I really needed it today.

[avag...@gmail.com]

no problem

<https://www.google.com/search?q=strange+bicycles&tbm=isch>

eeyyehahhahah here's to Murray !

when your strange

ideas come out of the rain

with enough rain

funding is found

leading to

PRODUCTION

incroyable.

ROKON !

https://goo.gl/zmoyhb

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 8:11:06 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 17 May 2016 23:44:46 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >Lieb. You know the question arises after percolating ...
> >is there..I think of Tesla...a common parallel in electronics
> >to these imaginative dead ends at a 'better bicycle' ?
> >Example, think of ten still born electric motor designs producing
> >less power/cost after years/$$ development.
>
> Certainly. The mechanism for any speculative venture is much the
> same, no matter what the technology. Find a need, throw something
> together to attract investors, built it, and then everyone sues
> everyone else. It doesn't matter if it's a bicycle or an electric
> car. If the need is lacking, hire the government to provide a
> suitable crisis and interim financing. If you can find a need for a
> bigger, better, faster, cheaper, etc bicycle, you too can be as
> successful at Tesla.

You don't even need a real crisis -- just government regulation.

Anyway, the market for a recumbent with an IGH direct drive system is probably a couple hundred people. The smart money is on rowing bikes. http://www.rowbike.com/

-- Jay Beattie.

[avag...@gmail.com]

super ...ideal for riunners with knee inuries...now there's a market

apparently hiring Rolloff PR

The Rowbike Crew 2.0 utilizes the revolutionary NuVinci N360 internal gear hub which gives you continuous, infinite gearing within range

I have a new soldering gun does this....a Weller 8200.

[John B.]

I read the site and was particularly interested in their specification
of 400 calories of energy per 20 minute of rowing.

Back when we were living on the sail boat I used to see an old fellow
rowing down the bay early in the morning and then I'd see him rowing
back late in the evening, about 12 hours later. The mind boggles at
the ((12 x 60)/20) X 400 calories he must have been burning :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 18 May 2016 07:13:50 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

Yes, that is the one.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 18 May 2016 17:27:12 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
<jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 8:11:06 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 May 2016 23:44:46 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >Lieb. You know the question arises after percolating ...
>> >is there..I think of Tesla...a common parallel in electronics
>> >to these imaginative dead ends at a 'better bicycle' ?
>> >Example, think of ten still born electric motor designs producing
>> >less power/cost after years/$$ development.
>>
>> Certainly. The mechanism for any speculative venture is much the
>> same, no matter what the technology. Find a need, throw something
>> together to attract investors, built it, and then everyone sues
>> everyone else. It doesn't matter if it's a bicycle or an electric
>> car. If the need is lacking, hire the government to provide a
>> suitable crisis and interim financing. If you can find a need for a
>> bigger, better, faster, cheaper, etc bicycle, you too can be as
>> successful at Tesla.

>You don't even need a real crisis -- just government regulation.

Government regulations usually appear after a real or imaginary
crisis. "We're the government and we're here to help". It would not
do to impose regulations without a suitable problem in need of solving
because it might look to the GUM (great unwashed masses) that the
government was favoring one particular technology, industry, or
consortium of favored contributors. Can't have that happen. However,
should there ever be a real crisis, the standard mode of "do
something, even if it's wrong" is equally effective at redistributing
the tax revenue.

>Anyway, the market for a recumbent with an IGH direct drive
>system is probably a couple hundred people.

The only difference between a direct drive system on the front or rear
wheels is the direction of travel. By simply reversing the direction
of travel of a recumbent, I suppose a front wheel direct drive
recumbent might be constructed.

>The smart money is on rowing bikes. http://www.rowbike.com/
>-- Jay Beattie.

Did you notice in the video that all the rides were on either flat or
slightly downhill paths? I want to see what happens when it tries to
do a hill climb.

I find it odd that many rowing bicycles only use upper body power,
while ignoring the much stronger leg power. Some get it right:
<http://www.rowingbike.com/en/>
<http://www.rowingbike.com/en/modellen/> (cable drive)
or almost right:
<http://rowingbike.free.fr/round-rowing.gif>
or overdone:
<http://www.sculltrek.sk/index.php?lang=en>
<http://www.sculltrek.sk/index.php?lang=en&sekcia=video>

Another problem is that the rider, or rather the power source, is
facing the wrong direction. Rowing bicycles should be built like a
row boat, with the rider facing backwards and maybe a big mirror,
periscope, or LCD display as a concession to visibility. All of the
rowing bikes are facing forward, with a reversing gear of some sorts,
which wastes power.

More rowing bicycles:
<http://rowingbike.free.fr>