randonneur

[Emanuel Berg]

I'm looking for a randonneur to buy for personal use.

This [1] looks good: 47-622 tires [2],
Shimano 105 30 speed, mudguards/fenders,
holders for pack, etc. - only a bit juicy at
1649.90 euro.

What other randonneurs at perhaps a lower price are
you aware of?

For me to like it, it has to a be a diamond steel
frame, with at least 44-622 tires, lots of gears, rim
brakes, long-wheelbase/comfort-geometry/fork-with-rake,
and maximum-headset-spacers if indeed a modern
Aheadset style...


[1] https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/en/katalog/tx-randonneur-2017

[2] It says 35-622 on the page but a guy in a shop
told me it had 47-622 when he showed me the bike.
The tires looked possibly 44-622 to me but I can't
always tell without looking.


--
underground experts exiled

[Sepp Ruf]

Emanuel Berg wrote:
> I'm looking for a randonneur to buy for personal use.
>
> This [1] looks good: 47-622 tires [2],
> Shimano 105 30 speed, mudguards/fenders,
> holders for pack, etc. - only a bit juicy at
> 1649.90 euro.
>
> What other randonneurs at perhaps a lower price are
> you aware of?

Careful, "one" (cough) or the other brand might just be selling "trekking"
frames with extra bent metal tubes to call them randonneur bikes.

> For me to like it, it has to a be a diamond steel
> frame, with at least 44-622 tires, lots of gears, rim
> brakes, long-wheelbase/comfort-geometry/fork-with-rake,
> and maximum-headset-spacers if indeed a modern
> Aheadset style...

A realistic question is if the common 42 width is sufficient or if the bike
really fits 47 (labeled) tires plus fenders.

> [1] https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/en/katalog/tx-randonneur-2017

Comfort geometry? Well, most apes do have short legs and long arms.
<https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/de/pdfs/pdf_vsf/testberichte/2016_01_radtouren_vsf_fahrradmanufaktur_tx_randonneur_6.pdf>


--
And good luck defending it once the monkeys have run out of gas!
<https://www.msb.se/Upload/Forebyggande/Krisberedskap/Krisberedskapsveckan/Fakta%20om%20broschyren%20Om%20krisen%20eller%20Kriget%20kommer/If%20crises%20or%20war%20comes.pdf>

[sms]

On 5/23/2018 5:28 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> I'm looking for a randonneur to buy for personal use.
>
> This [1] looks good: 47-622 tires [2],
> Shimano 105 30 speed, mudguards/fenders,
> holders for pack, etc. - only a bit juicy at
> 1649.90 euro.
>
> What other randonneurs at perhaps a lower price are
> you aware of?
>
> For me to like it, it has to a be a diamond steel
> frame, with at least 44-622 tires, lots of gears, rim
> brakes, long-wheelbase/comfort-geometry/fork-with-rake,
> and maximum-headset-spacers if indeed a modern
> Aheadset style...
>
>
> [1] https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/en/katalog/tx-randonneur-2017

Yes, the Fahrradmanufaktur is probably your best bet.

We have no Randonneur bicycles available in the U.S..

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 7:28:54 AM UTC-5, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>
> [1] https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/en/katalog/tx-randonneur-2017
>

Looks like a loaded touring bike to me. Those are sold in the USA and everywhere in the world. To me randonneur means something very special and specific. Randonneuring is long distance cycling, 200 to 1200km, in a specific time limit. You carry minimal gear to make it through the ride. NO ONE uses a loaded touring bike like you linked to for randonneuring. Look at the bikes used on Paris Brest Paris, the original randonneur ride, and you will not see any loaded touring bikes. The bike you linked would be used on round the world tours carrying four panniers, handlebar bag, and tent piled on top of the rear rack. A heavy loaded touring bike. If that is what you want, then just do a simple search for loaded touring bikes.

[Emanuel Berg]

"russell...@yahoo.com" <russell...@yahoo.com>
writes:

The bike has the word "randonneur" in it's designation
which is French and translates to long distance.

The bike, if I could afford it, would be packed with
some 10-12 kg of dry bags with a Trangia, a sleeping
mat, a sleeping bag, a tent, toilet stuff, some books,
maps, and tools, and a couple of other things.

What is the difference between touring and
randonneuring? Touring is shorter? How/why would this
impact the bike? I say the bike in the URL could be
used for touring as well, and actually most everyday
biking, and why not?

It is just a solid steel frame with fenders, lots of
gears, some comfort to the geometry and tires, and
racks to hang luggage onto. Unpacked, most people in
the city wouldn't notice anything special about it.

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:

>> [1] https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/en/katalog/tx-randonneur-2017
>
> Yes, the Fahrradmanufaktur is probably your best bet.

Yep, I think it looks great, too expansive but I'll
put in the extra effort to maybe get it to next
summer. Or the summer after that...

> We have no Randonneur bicycles available in the
> U.S..

Really? Why not?

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

Sepp Ruf <inq...@Safe-mail.net> writes:

> A realistic question is if the common 42 width is
> sufficient or if the bike really fits 47 (labeled)
> tires plus fenders.

Do they say that anywhere on the page?

I only heard the guy say it ("47") in the shop (tho
the tires didn't look that wide), on the home page,
what I can see, it says


Schwalbe Marathon Racer, 35-622, reflex


35 on a touring/randonneur bike?

I have 32-630 on my road bike and my intuition tells
me 35 is too small as well, probably 42 at a very
minimum!

--
underground experts exiled

[John B.]

On Wed, 23 May 2018 22:23:46 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

I think that you are getting all tangled up in definitions. Try the
Blayley's site. I think in one description The Fixie Pixie (the female
member of the team) describes a Brevet Bike (what you are calling a
Randonneuring Bike) as "reliable and comfortable has enough storage
capacity that you can carry what you need for the distance and
conditions (including clothes and tools) and/or store what you no
longer need, and since the longer brevets require lights and usually
involve sustained night riding, a bike used for longer brevets should
have reliable long-lasting lights". Which might equally well describe
a long distance touring bike :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 23 May 2018 22:23:46 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

To add to my previous post, you might want to look at a Race across
America as the ultimate long distance bike - some 3,000 miles (4,800
Km. as fast as you can make it - yet it probably doesn't fit the
randonneuring description very well.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

There are zillions of worthy touring bikes. Half the Soma range fits the bills, and for complete bikes, you can get uber adventure bikes from mundane places like REI. https://tinyurl.com/yat8eze6 Or a touring bike from Trek, Cannondale, Fuji and on and on. Go to Performance and get a dopey retro Fuji touring bike. https://www.performancebike.com/shop/fuji-touring-road-bike-2018-31-8654 9sp bar-end shifters will last forever, and if the frame breaks in the middle of nowhere, the local chieftains can weld it back together because they all have MIG kits in their huts. Even cheaper at Nashbar. https://www.bikenashbar.com/cycling/nashbar-touring-bike-nb-tr


IMO, the only difference between a >200K-300K ride and a brevet is the format of the ride. You don't need cargo capacity for a ride of that length. If you're comfortable on a racing bike for the distance, ride that. Personally, I would hate to drag some steel pig around for 200-300K. The last 200K or 200 mile ride I did was on a racing bike.

I wouldn't want to ride more than 200-300K because I have other things to do, like sleep. I don't get the whole 1600K brevet thing, but then again, I'm old and decrepit and like to be home at night drinking.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Duane]

Touring isn’t usually a timed event.

> It is just a solid steel frame with fenders, lots of
> gears, some comfort to the geometry and tires, and
> racks to hang luggage onto. Unpacked, most people in
> the city wouldn't notice anything special about it.
>

No, it’s just a touring bike like you can find anywhere. Mine was a
Bianchi Volpe purchased in a typical bike shop in Albany NY. If that’s
what you’re looking for you should have your pick.

--
duane

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/23/2018 4:23 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>
> What is the difference between touring and
> randonneuring? Touring is shorter? How/why would this
> impact the bike? I say the bike in the URL could be
> used for touring as well, and actually most everyday
> biking, and why not?

_Bicycle Quarterly_ magazine is probably the one American magazine most
concerned with randonneuring. Here's what they said in an online article
about "10 common misconceptions about randonneuring":

Misconception #3: "You need a special bike.

"Bicycle Quarterly has done a lot of research on what makes an optimized
randonneur bike, but you can use any bike for randonneuring. One of my
friends rode several seasons, including PBP, on a carbon-fiber LeMond
(above). Another friend rode a 1980s Trek on many brevets, including a
24-hour Flèche Vélocio. You can ride any bike.

"A true randonneur bike will be a bit faster, quite a bit more
comfortable, and probably more reliable, but you don’t have to have one.
Unlike racing, where a poor bike choice will have you dropped on the
first hill, randonneuring can be done on almost any bike."

See
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2015/01/22/10-common-misconceptions-about-randonneuring/

Bicycles are very versatile. I know the bicycling industry would like
you to have one bike for riding to the grocery in the morning, and
another one for the afternoon; one for a clockwise route, another for a
counterclockwise route.

Loaded touring bikes are among the most versatile of all bikes. I think
their only real downside is a few pounds of extra weight. If that
bothers you, go on a diet before you ride.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tim McNamara]

On Wed, 23 May 2018 14:28:50 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

> I'm looking for a randonneur to buy for personal use.

<pedant>

FWIW, a bicycle designed for brevets and similar riding is generally
called a "randonneuse." This is the feminine form of the word; the
French words for bicycle are mostly gendered feminine.

</pedant>

[sms]

No market for them.

[Sepp Ruf]

jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 1:23:48 PM UTC-7, Emanuel Berg wrote:

>> "russell...@yahoo.com" writes:
>>
>>>> [1] https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/en/katalog/tx-randonneur-2017

I asked a dealer on the way about tires, a 42 labeled tire that's really 40
is as much as he'd try to fit under the mini-V.

>>> Looks like a loaded touring bike to me. Those are sold in the USA and
>>> everywhere in the world. To me randonneur means something very
>>> special and specific. Randonneuring is long distance cycling, 200 to
>>> 1200km, in a specific time limit. You carry minimal gear to make it
>>> through the ride. NO ONE uses a loaded touring bike like you linked
>>> to for randonneuring. Look at the bikes used on Paris Brest Paris,
>>> the original randonneur ride, and you will not see any loaded touring
>>> bikes. The bike you linked would be used on round the world tours
>>> carrying four panniers, handlebar bag, and tent piled on top of the
>>> rear rack. A heavy loaded touring bike. If that is what you want,
>>> then just do a simple search for loaded touring bikes.
>>
>> The bike has the word "randonneur" in it's designation which is French
>> and translates to long distance.
>>
>> The bike, if I could afford it, would be packed with some 10-12 kg of
>> dry bags with a Trangia, a sleeping mat, a sleeping bag, a tent, toilet
>> stuff, some books, maps, and tools, and a couple of other things.

Even 15 kg of gear should fit on a lighter bike.

>> What is the difference between touring and randonneuring? Touring is
>> shorter? How/why would this impact the bike? I say the bike in the URL
>> could be used for touring as well, and actually most everyday biking,
>> and why not?
>>
>> It is just a solid steel frame with fenders, lots of gears, some
>> comfort to the geometry and tires, and racks to hang luggage onto.
>> Unpacked, most people in the city wouldn't notice anything special
>> about it.
>
> There are zillions of worthy touring bikes. Half the Soma range fits the

> bills and for complete bikes, you can get uber adventure bikes from> mundane places like REI. https://tinyurl.com/yat8eze6 Or a touring bike

> from Trek, Cannondale, Fuji and on and on.

I'd look for used ones sold by riders who have switched to disk brakes.

> Go to Performance and get a
> dopey retro Fuji touring bike.
> https://www.performancebike.com/shop/fuji-touring-road-bike-2018-31-8654
>
> 9sp bar-end shifters will last forever, and if the frame breaks in the
> middle of nowhere, the local chieftains can weld it back together because
> they all have MIG kits in their huts. Even cheaper at Nashbar.
> https://www.bikenashbar.com/cycling/nashbar-touring-bike-nb-tr

Shipping to SWE:
<http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/se/en/fuji-touring-road-bike-2018/rp-prod166407>


BTW, Ikea is recalling Sladda bikes, drive belt might *snap*. Full refund,
but no belt replacement? Lovely sustainability!

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> writes:

> I think that you are getting all tangled up in
> definitions. Try the Blayley's site. I think in one
> description The Fixie Pixie (the female member of
> the team) describes a Brevet Bike (what you are
> calling a Randonneuring Bike) as "reliable and
> comfortable has enough storage capacity that you can
> carry what you need for the distance and conditions
> (including clothes and tools) and/or store what you
> no longer need, and since the longer brevets require
> lights and usually involve sustained night riding,
> a bike used for longer brevets should have reliable
> long-lasting lights". Which might equally well
> describe a long distance touring bike :-)

I'm getting all tangled up? Because that's what
*I* said, basically :)

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

Duane <sp...@flarn.com> writes:

> No, it’s just a touring bike like you can find
> anywhere. Mine was a Bianchi Volpe purchased in
> a typical bike shop in Albany NY. If that’s what
> you’re looking for you should have your pick.

I'm looking for a closed steel frame, with fenders and
reasonable big tires, comfort geometry, gears, and
bars where I can hang 4 barrels to carry
10-12 kg (total), 2 rear and 2 front.

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

Duane <sp...@flarn.com> writes:

> No, it’s just a touring bike like you can find
> anywhere. Mine was a Bianchi Volpe purchased in
> a typical bike shop in Albany NY. If that’s what
> you’re looking for you should have your pick.

Bianchi Volpe, thanks, I'll add that to the list of
possible bikes.

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> "Bicycle Quarterly has done a lot of research on
> what makes an optimized randonneur bike, but you can
> use any bike for randonneuring. One of my friends
> rode several seasons, including PBP, on
> a carbon-fiber LeMond (above). Another friend rode
> a 1980s Trek on many brevets, including a 24-hour
> Flèche Vélocio.

I'd like a steel frame but thanks anyway.

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:

>>> We have no Randonneur bicycles available in the
>>> U.S..
>>
>> Really? Why not?
>
> No market for them.

Depressing!

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:

> Fuji touring bike.
> https://www.performancebike.com/shop/fuji-touring-road-bike-2018-31-8654

> [...]

> Even cheaper at Nashbar.
> https://www.bikenashbar.com/cycling/nashbar-touring-bike-nb-tr

Thank you, Fuji and Nashbar added :)

Oh, I forgot one thing on my "demand list",
rim brakes!

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

Sepp Ruf <inq...@Safe-mail.net> writes:

> Shipping to SWE:
> <http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/se/en/fuji-touring-road-bike-2018/rp-prod166407>

8806 SEK! Great!

Anyone has any experience from if not this bike in
particular but the brand? Fuji, quality
Japanese/Taiwan/China stuff?

--
underground experts exiled

[John B. Slocomb]

On Thu, 24 May 2018 20:34:12 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

Your just posted questions about the Fuji touring bike is an example.
Whoopee! Real Elios 2CrMo! But in a quick perusal of the Fuji site I
found no technical specs of the frame tube sets. So how great is it?
(In comparison have a look at the upper end of the Columbus tube sets
where they list the chemical and physical specs of each of the
available tubes. In some cases where the heat treatment is critical
specific temperatures and times (where required) are listed.

Some years ago a guy got together with a custom frame maker and they
built two frames. One from a specific tube maker's top end tube sets
and a second from the same tube maker's lowest end stuff. If memory
serves the only physical difference in the two frames was the color.
Pink in one case and blue in the other.

They when the frames were completed they built two bicycles and gather
a group of the most vocal pundits to evaluate them.

What they discovered was that there was no consistency whatsoever in
the evaluations. One mob would pick the "low end" tube set bike and
rave about the road holding and great ride while a second mob would be
writing an equally enthusiastic report about the great ride and
unbelievably great cornering of the frame built from the "high end
stuff".

Ask Frank for the details if you are interested as I believe he
maintains a file of that sort of information :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Thu, 24 May 2018 20:53:56 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

But why? When I was a little fellow I had a bike, for a while, that
had no brakes at all. Just drag your feet to stop. Much lighter then
actual brake sets complete with cables.

(I will admit however that by the age of 12 I had learned how to
repair lever brakes and went back to using them (with appropriate
claims of superiority :-))
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

A friend of mine has a Bianchi Volpe and likes it very much.
Disclaimer: She's not an expert cyclist.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B. Slocomb]

But in essence, isn't that "IT"?

If you firmly believe that in picking this whatever, be it bicycle
frame, motor car, or female partner in life, that "You got the Good
One" your life is going to be a lot more satisfactory then if one goes
through life with a faint feeling that you, "should have taken the
other one" :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> A friend of mine has a Bianchi Volpe and likes it
> very much. Disclaimer: She's not an expert cyclist.

Good! Because it is just a bike. Perhaps she is good
at something else instead.

On the Fuji bike, can one get a rack for the
front/front sides (2 or 3 bags), as well, and a pair
of them vertical/horizontal extentions (?) to the
brake levers so one can get to them (the brakes) from
other hand positions?

Tires only 32 tho. That's too thin IMO.

--
underground experts exiled

[AMuzi]

On 5/24/2018 11:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/24/2018 2:39 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>> Duane <sp...@flarn.com> writes:
>>

>>> No, it’s just a touring bike like you can find

>>> anywhere. Mine was a Bianchi Volpe purchased in

>>> a typical bike shop in Albany NY. If that’s what
>>> you’re looking for you should have your pick.

>>
>> Bianchi Volpe, thanks, I'll add that to the list of
>> possible bikes.
>
> A friend of mine has a Bianchi Volpe and likes it very much.
> Disclaimer: She's not an expert cyclist.
>
>

High praise indeed!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Duane]

You are really looking for a loaded touring bike then. The Volpe is
what used to be called a Sports Touring bike. Probably closer to what
someone would use to do brevets. Mine was a 90s model but even then I'm
not sure tires much bigger than 32 would fit. No idea what the current
models are like.

[Ralph Barone]

Sounds like he wants my bike. Surly Long Haul Trucker. Front and rear racks
and fenders. Dynamo hub and lights. Cross levers so you can brake while
upright. Long wheelbase so your shoes don't clip your panniers. CroMo
frame. 36 spoke wheels. Mountain gearing for long hills while carrying 50
lbs of baggage. 3 water bottle mounts on the frame. Blah, blah, blah...

[Emanuel Berg]

Ralph Barone <ra...@invalid.com> writes:

> Sounds like he wants my bike. Surly Long Haul
> Trucker. Front and rear racks and fenders.
> Dynamo hub and lights. Cross levers so you can brake
> while upright. Long wheelbase so your shoes don't
> clip your panniers. CroMo frame. 36 spoke wheels.
> Mountain gearing for long hills while carrying 50
> lbs of baggage. 3 water bottle mounts on the frame.

That's exactly right! I want Ralph's bike!

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

Ralph Barone <ra...@invalid.com> writes:

> Cross levers so you can brake while upright.

OK, so they are called cross levers. Very practical
indeed!

The "Fuji Touring Road Bike 2018" comes with
"Shimano T4010 linear pull" with
"Tektro RL520" braker levers.

Are there cross levers readily available for that (the
Tektros) or are you supposed to hack that
yourself somehow?

--
underground experts exiled

[jbeattie]

Personally, I think the Surly Fog Cutter is neat. Sportier, with disc mounts and can handle big tires. http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/fog-cutter-frame-set The LHT is popular, too, but any Surly frame is going to cost you >$500 USD and will need to be built-up.
https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=92139

Touring bikes are common as fleas. Even the Trek 520 fits the bill. https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/adventure-touring-bikes/520/520-disc/p/16295/?colorCode=black Up to 44C without mudguards. You would have to add CX levers and a dyno light.


-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

I installed in line brake levers on the two bikes my wife and I just
used for our grocery run.
https://www.bikenashbar.com/cycling/parts/brakes/nashbar-in-line-brake-levers-ns-inl-base

Very inexpensive and easy to install.

Looks like Nashbar has a big sale on bikes in progress.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 5/23/2018 1:25 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:
>
>>> [1] https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/en/katalog/tx-randonneur-2017
>>
>> Yes, the Fahrradmanufaktur is probably your best bet.
>
> Yep, I think it looks great, too expansive but I'll
> put in the extra effort to maybe get it to next
> summer. Or the summer after that...
>

>> We have no Randonneur bicycles available in the
>> U.S..
>
> Really? Why not?

You can buy a Randonneur frame in the U.S.:
http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/grand-randonneur-frame-set

A randonneur bicycle is not the same as a touring bicycle, though a
touring bicycle may be close enough for you. $529.99 for a frame and
fork is not bad. You should be able to build a complete bike for another
$1000 or so.

[AMuzi]

Wait until your size is listed here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Surly-Long-Haul-Trucking-Touring-All-Road-Commuter-Steel-Bike-700c-30-Speed-58cm/392051078978?hash=item5b4810b742:g:FG8AAOSw3UZbB5pL

[AMuzi]

Life must be hard in Sweden what with no bike shops and no
internet:

http://www.tektro.com/products.php?p=209#

[Emanuel Berg]

jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:

> Touring bikes are common as fleas. Even the Trek 520
> fits the bill.
> https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/adventure-touring-bikes/520/520-disc/p/16295/?colorCode=black
> Up to 44C without mudguards. You would have to add
> CX levers and a dyno light.

Great only too expensive, especially compared to the
Fuji and in particular the amount of money in
my wallet.

Why do they do randonneurs with 32 tires anyway?!

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

Ralph Barone <ra...@invalid.com> writes:

> Long wheelbase [...]

What is considered long in this case?

My road bike has it somewhere 41.5 inch, and my
military standard bike at 47 inches!

But 41-42" should do it, right?

--
underground experts exiled

[Tim McNamara]

On Thu, 24 May 2018 09:39:55 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

> On 5/23/2018 1:25 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:
>>
>>>> [1] https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/en/katalog/tx-randonneur-2017
>>>
>>> Yes, the Fahrradmanufaktur is probably your best bet.
>>
>> Yep, I think it looks great, too expansive but I'll put in the extra
>> effort to maybe get it to next summer. Or the summer after that...
>>
>>> We have no Randonneur bicycles available in the U.S..
>>
>> Really? Why not?
>

> No market for them.

Sure we have randonneuses available in the US, albeit generally by
custom order (just like the French- even there, there are have been few
true randonneuses available as mass market bikes that you could buy off
the showroom floor). I had one made by a local builder in 2015 and he
had made others before mine. There are a few builders in the US that
specialize in this sort of thing.

If you're talking about "bikes with fenders and lights," there are
options in many bike shops in the US. But "bike" in the US continues to
mean mostly MTBs or TdF type bikes.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Fri, 25 May 2018 14:08:11 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

Ah but like any solution it is dependent on the problem that requires
solving. I remember one year that the province of Phuket, Thailand
received a whole bunch of money to improve their roads, That year one
could ride with 19mm "sew ups" with no problems at all, while only a
couple of years sooner or later you would have been cursing the roads
works department if you tried to run tires that hard.

I would comment that I habitially ran 19 mm tires for several years in
Indonesia by sticking to the "new roads" that had just been built.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[sms]

<http://www.bisikletgezgini.com/archives/7688>

[jbeattie]

Shockingly, the vaunted Koga signature World Traveler is made out of 6061 like my old Cannondale T1000. That was a great touring bike, although it wouldn't fit giant tires -- but I never wanted giant tires. That article draws interesting distinctions between true touring bikes and randonettes, which, according to Tim, should be the proper designation. Who knew that I needed a touring bike that could carry 45-50 kgs -- just in case I hit a deer and need to take it with me. I rode across the US with less than 45 pounds, and that included a complete set of tools that I would no longer need (cut-down headset wrenches, BB tools, etc.)


-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm betting most of us here run tires narrower than 32. I use 32s only
for loaded touring (which I haven't done for a while).

I'm not disputing that wider tires can be better. But I don't think the
buying public is ready for 32mm to be standard.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

All I can say in response is that I haven't broken mine yet.

[Ralph Barone]

Just so you know, my bike isn't stock. The cross levers, dynamo hub,
fenders and racks are add-ons (but there were places to connect them to).
I also replaced the bar end shifters with STI levers.

[Ralph Barone]

They are easily installed. Pull the brake cable out of the housing, cut the
housing at the right place, bolt the lever on the handlebar, and reinstall
the cable. Piece of cake.

[Ralph Barone]

Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com> wrote:
> Ralph Barone <ra...@invalid.com> writes:
>
>> Long wheelbase [...]
>
> What is considered long in this case?
>
> My road bike has it somewhere 41.5 inch, and my
> military standard bike at 47 inches!
>
> But 41-42" should do it, right?
>

1056 mm for my 56 cm frame with 26" wheels, so 41.5". I wouldn't mind it
being a bit longer, as my heels will clip my rear panniers if they've slid
around on the rack a bit.

[Radey Shouman]

jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:

> On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 4:49:10 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
>> On 5/25/2018 10:47 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>> > Ralph Barone <ra...@invalid.com> writes:
>> >
>> >> Sounds like he wants my bike. Surly Long Haul
>> >> Trucker. Front and rear racks and fenders.
>> >> Dynamo hub and lights. Cross levers so you can brake
>> >> while upright. Long wheelbase so your shoes don't
>> >> clip your panniers. CroMo frame. 36 spoke wheels.
>> >> Mountain gearing for long hills while carrying 50
>> >> lbs of baggage. 3 water bottle mounts on the frame.
>> >
>> > That's exactly right! I want Ralph's bike!
>>
>> <http://www.bisikletgezgini.com/archives/7688>
>
> Shockingly, the vaunted Koga signature World Traveler is made out of
> 6061 like my old Cannondale T1000. That was a great touring bike,
> although it wouldn't fit giant tires -- but I never wanted giant
> tires. That article draws interesting distinctions between true
> touring bikes and randonettes, which, according to Tim, should be the

Randonneuse. "Randonette" sounds like something Harvey Weinstein would
think up, a heteronormative shitlord sort of word.

--

[Emanuel Berg]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> I'm not disputing that wider tires can be better.
> But I don't think the buying public is ready for
> 32mm to be standard.

Not in the road bike world that is. Here anything
thinner than 40 is considered "thin" by the coaster
brake riding public. Altho they are unaware of the 32
and 40 designations, of course.

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

Ralph Barone <ra...@invalid.com> writes:

> Just so you know, my bike isn't stock. The cross
> levers, dynamo hub, fenders and racks are add-ons
> (but there were places to connect them to). I also
> replaced the bar end shifters with STI levers.

Thanks, but it is too expensive to begin with. Well,
good work anyway!

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

Ralph Barone <ra...@invalid.com> writes:

> 1056 mm for my 56 cm frame with 26" wheels, so
> 41.5". I wouldn't mind it being a bit longer, as my
> heels will clip my rear panniers if they've slid
> around on the rack a bit.

I'd like 28" wheels for sure (622, 630 or even 635),
I wonder what that'd do to the wheelbase?

I have 32-630 on my road bike and 56-559 on my
military standard bike. Which is infinitely more
comfortable to ride. Perhaps I should just find
a Shimano (?) internal 8SP rear wheel, put it on, and
forget about the Fuji?

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:

> Shockingly, the vaunted Koga signature World
> Traveler is made out of 6061 like my old Cannondale
> T1000. That was a great touring bike, although it
> wouldn't fit giant tires -- but I never wanted giant
> tires. That article draws interesting distinctions
> between true touring bikes and randonettes, which,
> according to Tim, should be the proper designation.
> Who knew that I needed a touring bike that could
> carry 45-50 kgs -- just in case I hit a deer and
> need to take it with me. I rode across the US with
> less than 45 pounds

20 kg is still a lot, I aim for around 12 including
water and everything. Then again I never crossed the
US on a bike so I'm not messing with results. I still
want a steel frame tho :)

--
underground experts exiled

[jbeattie]

Wow. I was kind of thinking Phil Spector.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

Why stop at randonette? randono-ko in Japan, randonini in
Italy and so on.

[Frank Krygowski]

I usually carried 30 - 35 pounds total when traveling alone. That included
tent, sleeping bag, maybe a camp stove and some food. I always thought I took
too much, but I was never able to get my load much under 30 pounds, unless
it was "credit card touring," staying entirely in motels.

Going coast to coast, I think I carried 40 pounds on my bike. But some of that
was stuff I carried for my ladies. It also included that backpacking stove
and food, which in retrospect was silly. They have restaurants.

- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

When I hit the heat on the other side of the Rockies (going east), I mailed half of my gear back home -- including my rain gear. You don't need it for the Mid-West, mid-day deluge. Nothing will prevent you from getting soaked, but then you dry out in about ten minutes. My stove went back, too. It was too hot to cook.

-- Jay Beattie.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

Too expensive??? The cross brake levers Mr. Muzi linked to before retail for $19 at Amazon. If this is too expensive for you, then please tell us how you are able to afford a computer to participate in this forum? And pay the monthly internet charges of $20-50 per month? Unless of course you use the free computers at the local public library to do all of your internet use.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

In all of my loaded touring I have never used a stove or cooked my own food. Too simple for the past 25 years to just eat in restaurants or buy food already to eat. Gas stations, convenience stores, grocery stores all have food ready to eat. No need to cook raw food on a bicycle trip. At worst just carry a can opener and buy a can of chicken breast or tuna and a couple cans of pork and beans. Tasty meal. Add some bread and raw fruit and you have a feast.

[jbeattie]

You're missing out on ramen! Hot chocolate at night is nice, but its all optional. A lot of stuff is optional, even when you're camping. But then again, I have no idea what it is like to do the Amazon tour or the Tibetan plateau tour. I've ridden in some remote areas of the West, but not that remote. No need for a satellite phone or 50kg of gear. I take quinine, but only in gin and tonic.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tim McNamara]

On Fri, 25 May 2018 22:24:14 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

Comfort, for one thing. The standard brevet lengths are 200, 300, 400,
600, 1000 and 1200 km. All with time limits, checkpoints, etc. The
extra comfort afforded by the larger tires becomes very helpful after 8,
10, 50 hours in the saddle.

Pinch flat protection, for another thing. Middle of the night, middle
of nowhere, fatigue, not reacting to that pothole or pavement seam in
time...

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm not a cook, but I'd often take the backpacking stove and some simple
boil-and-eat food just in case I was nowhere near a restaurant.

Many years ago, I rode across Ohio west to east (following the Cardinal
Trail) with an older retired friend. We carried no food. Now in the
busiest times, rural western Ohio has very few places serving food; but
this was Labor Day, and we kept finding the few restaurants were closed.

One place that was open was a VFW hall - that is, Veterans of Foreign
Wars. I told my friend "Hey, you can get us in there! You're a veteran
of World War II!" And he really was. Trouble was, he fought for the
other side!

He had been captured and taken to New York State as a prisoner of war. I
think it's to our country's credit that he was treated well enough that
he decided to return and live in America after the war.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

On another cross-Ohio solo trip, I came up with what I thought was a
brilliant solution for emergency food. Instead of a backpacking stove, I
threw in one of those plug-in immersion heaters, the kind used to heat
cups of coffee. And I threw in a freeze dried backpacking meal.

Sure enough, in western Ohio I was out of daylight and camped at a state
park. I got a site with electricity, poured water into the food's foil
pack and heated it with the immersion heater. Not gourmet fare, but
plenty tasty enough, and very light weight!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Emanuel Berg]

"russell...@yahoo.com" <russell...@yahoo.com>
writes:

> Too expensive??? The cross brake levers

Ralph's bike.

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> writes:

>> Great only too expensive, especially compared to
>> the Fuji and in particular the amount of money in
>> my wallet. Why do they do randonneurs with 32 tires
>> anyway?!
>
> Comfort, for one thing. The standard brevet lengths
> are 200, 300, 400, 600, 1000 and 1200 km. All with
> time limits, checkpoints, etc. The extra comfort
> afforded by the larger tires becomes very helpful
> after 8, 10, 50 hours in the saddle.

Ha ha :) Definitely. But why not 40 or 47 tires then?
They are not that much slower/heavier or less aero
than 32 and even more comfortable. Especially with
a loaded bike I think 32 is too thin. But if that's
the way it is I'm not letting it stop me from going,

[Sepp Ruf]

Radey Shouman wrote:
> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:

>> Shockingly, the vaunted Koga signature World Traveler is made out of
>> 6061 like my old Cannondale T1000. That was a great touring bike,
>> although it wouldn't fit giant tires -- but I never wanted giant
>> tires. That article draws interesting distinctions between true
>> touring bikes and randonettes, which, according to Tim, should be the
>
> Randonneuse. "Randonette" sounds like something Harvey Weinstein would
> think up

To the uninitiated, err... non cycle-touring public, a public ad
"Looking to buy a randonneuse for personal use, will pay $$$$Amount" already
looks at least as "suspicious" as a forgotten backpack in Milwaukee.

[Emanuel Berg]

Sepp Ruf <inq...@Safe-mail.net> writes:

> To the uninitiated, err... non cycle-touring public,
> a public ad "Looking to buy a randonneuse for
> personal use, will pay $$$$Amount" already looks at
> least as "suspicious" as a forgotten backpack
> in Milwaukee.

Very clever!

But regardless of whatever, I've read "randonneur" in
at least two books by now and it is also the name
(part of the name) of the bike mentioned in the
original post, "TX-Randonneur Shimano 105 30-Speed". [1]

[1] https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/en/katalog/tx-randonneur-2017

--
underground experts exiled

[Sepp Ruf]

Emanuel Berg wrote:

[rando-???]

> But regardless of whatever, I've read "randonneur" in
> at least two books by now and it is also the name
> (part of the name) of the bike mentioned in the
> original post, "TX-Randonneur Shimano 105 30-Speed". [1]
>
> [1] https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/en/katalog/tx-randonneur-2017

Well, they also equip it with the special Shimano "HALLOWtech" component.

Scientifically conducted Ebay statistics show that only French (Motobecane)
bikes will be called randonneuse in Fahrradmanufaktur-land:

<https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-randonneur/k0>
vs.
<https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-randonneuse/k0>


--
-esse, from Old French -ece, from Latin -itiam, the accusative of -itia.
Suffix used to form nouns describing the condition of being something
(-ness, -ity, etc.)
Example: "Charlotte's amazing Frenchesse"

[Emanuel Berg]

Ralph Barone <ra...@invalid.com> writes:

> 36 spoke wheels

The Fuji bike also has 36 spoke wheels, or as they put
it, it has

Vera Terra DPM18, double wall, 36/36h, Shimano
Deore hubs [1]

That sounds straightforward only why do they say "36"
twice? To say there are 36 holes on the hub as well?
Makes sense, right?

OTOH the VSF has

Exal MX19, Aluminium hollow section rim, double
eyed [2]

What does hollow section rim mean? The same as double
wall? And what is double eyed? The position of the
holes are not in the middle of the rim but one
a little to the left, the other a little to the right?
But aren't all rims that way nowadays? Or am I wrong?

The rim cross sections I can find in my books are the
V-section, the box section, the sprint, and the
"aero-sprint" (look like the sprint only a V-shape to
the south and north).

I take it from the illos the V-section and box section
are double walled?

[1] http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/se/en/fuji-touring-road-bike-2018/rp-prod166407
[2] https://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/en/katalog/tx-randonneur-2017

--
underground experts exiled

[Emanuel Berg]

> The Fuji bike also has 36 spoke wheels, or as they put
> it, it has
>
> Vera Terra DPM18, double wall, 36/36h, Shimano
> Deore hubs [1]
>
> That sounds straightforward only why do they say "36"
> twice? To say there are 36 holes on the hub as well?
> Makes sense, right?

Or do they mean the front/rear wheel?

Perhaps someone got the idea to reinforce the rear
wheel with more spokes than the front ditto, e.g.
to have 36 rear and 32 front (or 28/32). Then you
could write the bike has 32/36h rims - practical!

Perhaps for randonneuring/heavy touring one would even
want 40 or 48 spokes on the rear wheel?

--
underground experts exiled

[AMuzi]

Back when the Earth was young, The Ancients discovered that
32h front/40h rear is as close to perfect as one might
imagine. Adds some niggling cost and therefore abandoned.

[Ralph Barone]

Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com> wrote:
> "russell...@yahoo.com" <russell...@yahoo.com>
> writes:
>
>> Too expensive??? The cross brake levers
>
> Ralph's bike.
>

Half the price of SMS's preferred Koga Traveller.

[Duane]

Coming from New Orleans, I can highly recommend quinine to protect against
malaria. Having some now with Bombay Sapphire. Throw in some vitamin c
and you should be good to go. Doing it for years and no malaria. Works in
the great north as well.

I’ve done some camping and some camping by bike. Canned chicken was not
something I’d consider. Didn’t even know it was a thing. Better to bring
a rod and reel and get some catfish.

--
duane

[James]

Why not tow a trailer?

http://www.bobgear.com/bike-trailers/yak

No need for special racks and bags on the bike. By swapping the cranks
and cassette, I could use my otherwise regular road bike to go touring!

--
JS

[jbeattie]

One of my favorite gin and tonic experiences -- on a tour, sitting on the deck with my wife at Little River Inn near Mendocino, Ca. Right here: https://www.dailyrepublic.com/files/2014/04/LittleRiverInn_Balcony.jpg There is a campground down below. No catfish, but you can get salmon. We were on a tour from PDX to San Jose. It was dreary on the coast so we cut inland to wine country, and I wine tasted myself into a spectacular headache. Lessons learned: (1) remember to drink water on hot days and not just wine, and (2) make absolutely sure your head is not pointed downhill in your tent when you go to bed at night after drinking wine all day.

-- Jay Beattie.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Sunday, May 27, 2018 at 6:24:15 PM UTC-5, Duane wrote:
> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 3:44:30 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> In all of my loaded touring I have never used a stove or cooked my own
> >> food. Too simple for the past 25 years to just eat in restaurants or
> >> buy food already to eat. Gas stations, convenience stores, grocery
> >> stores all have food ready to eat. No need to cook raw food on a
> >> bicycle trip. At worst just carry a can opener and buy a can of chicken
> >> breast or tuna and a couple cans of pork and beans. Tasty meal. Add
> >> some bread and raw fruit and you have a feast.
> >

> I’ve done some camping and some camping by bike. Canned chicken was not
> something I’d consider. Didn’t even know it was a thing. Better to bring
> a rod and reel and get some catfish.
>
> --
> duane

Canned chicken is sold right next to the canned tuna. I assume your grocery stores sell canned tuna? The canned chicken is breast meat. Better tasting than tuna. Rod and reel? I've heard more than a few stories of people fishing all day and not catching a single fish. Not the way I want to plan my supper. I like sure things. Opening up a can of tuna or chicken is a sure thing. Fishing 1, 2, 3, 6, 12 hours for one fish? Carrying a rod and bait?

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Sunday, May 27, 2018 at 7:29:09 PM UTC-5, James wrote:
>
> Why not tow a trailer?
>
> http://www.bobgear.com/bike-trailers/yak
>
> No need for special racks and bags on the bike. By swapping the cranks
> and cassette, I could use my otherwise regular road bike to go touring!

Yes Bob trailers work for touring with a road racing bicycle. Some people love them. But they have their downsides too. The bike handles very differently. And the trailer weighs about 15 pounds all by itself empty. Far more than the weight of racks on a touring bike. And the plastic bag on the Bob weighs more than the four panniers too. And its easy to carry too much with a Bob because you have all this space to carry stuff. Lot of people make the error of filling up every spare space. And there is the problem of transporting the Bob trailer. Bikes in the past flew as free luggage. Not anymore. But now after paying for the bike box, you ALSO have to pay for the trailer box too. Paying on both ends of your trip. Assuming your trips require airlines.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/27/2018 8:29 PM, James wrote:
>
> Why not tow a trailer?
>
> http://www.bobgear.com/bike-trailers/yak
>
> No need for special racks and bags on the bike.  By swapping the cranks
> and cassette, I could use my otherwise regular road bike to go touring!

I guess they work for some people, especially if you're guaranteed to
never need motorized transport at any point in your trip.

We used the trailer feature of our folding Bikes Friday on our first
trip to Europe with those bikes.
https://www.bikefriday.com/folding-bikes/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/NWT-with-trailer.jpg
(That's their photo, not mine.) The idea is, the bike is designed to
fit in the suitcase so it flies without hassle from airlines. When you
arrive, you take the suitcase with you, trailer-style.

An upside was that we had nothing but handlebar bags on our bikes. All
our clothing, etc. stayed in the trailer, so we could park the trailer
in the B&B or hotel and use the bikes easily in cities. And of course,
it meant the suitcase that carries the bike on the airplane would be
with us the entire trip; that enabled us to land and depart from
different airports.

Downsides? It's a much bulkier package overall, even when looking for a
place to lean the bikes against a wall. Getting on and off mass transit
was much more of an adventure, and so was finding space on board mass
transit. Squeezing through tight spaces was challenging. There are more
points of failure, starting with extra tires of an odd size. (I once
scraped against a bollard at a bike trail entrance and lost the clip
assembly that held on a trailer wheel. Others have had more serious
failures.) Total weight is higher than a bike with packs, and you
certainly feel it uphill. Tight corners can be a challenge, due to the
trailer cutting the corner. Getting the rig up even two stair steps is a
challenge... and so on.

On subsequent trips, I left the trailers at home. I fitted the bikes
with rear racks and used Rick Steves bags
https://store.ricksteves.com/shop/p/classic-backpack sitting vertically
above the rear wheel. (I added a clip to help attach the top of the bag
to the seatpost.) We found this to be much more convenient overall.

YMMV.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[James]

On 28/05/18 12:16, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 27, 2018 at 7:29:09 PM UTC-5, James wrote:
>>
>> Why not tow a trailer?
>>
>> http://www.bobgear.com/bike-trailers/yak
>>
>> No need for special racks and bags on the bike. By swapping the
>> cranks and cassette, I could use my otherwise regular road bike to
>> go touring!
>
> Yes Bob trailers work for touring with a road racing bicycle. Some
> people love them. But they have their downsides too. The bike
> handles very differently.

I noticed that when I towed my trailer with a racing bike built from 1"
853, it made the bike feel very flexible. On my Columbus Spirit road
bike with oversized tubes, it is fine. It is just as fine towing behind
my MTB. I suspect if I loaded my 853 bike with pannier racks and such,
it would feel quite noodle-like as well.

> And the trailer weighs about 15 pounds all
> by itself empty. Far more than the weight of racks on a touring
> bike. And the plastic bag on the Bob weighs more than the four
> panniers too.

Wow. You must have very light pannier bags. The ones I used when I was
a lad were fairly heavy, made from canvas with hard boards and metal
hooks, etc. Far heavier than the bag I have for my trailer.

> And its easy to carry too much with a Bob because you
> have all this space to carry stuff. Lot of people make the error of
> filling up every spare space. And there is the problem of
> transporting the Bob trailer. Bikes in the past flew as free
> luggage. Not anymore. But now after paying for the bike box, you
> ALSO have to pay for the trailer box too. Paying on both ends of
> your trip. Assuming your trips require airlines.
>

The trailer I have (Bob Yak style), can easily be disassembled and folds
flat. I doubt I'd have any difficulty adding to a bike box.

--
JS

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> Back when the Earth was young, The Ancients
> discovered that 32h front/40h rear is as close to
> perfect as one might imagine. Adds some niggling
> cost and therefore abandoned.

Sounds great, I'd like it! Don't the Asian (Indian)
transport bikes have 40 spokes?

--
underground experts exiled

[Duane]

Sarcasm really doesn't work on usenet.

I wouldn't eat canned chicken. I barely can tolerate canned tuna. The
idea of traveling by bike or foot and using that for fuel doesn't work
for me. Whether hiking or camping by bike I usually bring my rod, reel
and a few lures. (bait? maybe the canned chicken would work for
that...) But I'm not going to carry canned goods. And if I'm planning
to buy them on the spot, I would buy something like pasta salad fixings.
Canned meat and beans doesn't seem like good fuel.

There are a few pretty good outdoor outfitter places around. I have a
set of camping pots that fit into each other and weigh probably less
than two cans of tuna. They also sell these freeze dried meal packs and
I carry a few of them in case I can't find a grocery or a fishing pond.

[AMuzi]

All of that is true, but trailers shine in a group where
riders alternate pulling cargo. Neither good nor bad, sorta
variable.

[David Scheidt]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

At one of the rest stops of Bike the Drive yesterday, I saw a couple
who were swapping the kiddie trailer from one bike to the other. I
got to haul my daughter the whole way (in a Yepp seat on the rack.),
~40 miles. Ooof.



--
Movable type was evidently a fad. --Amanda Walker

[Mark J.]

On 5/27/2018 12:48 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> writes:
>
>>> Great only too expensive, especially compared to
>>> the Fuji and in particular the amount of money in
>>> my wallet. Why do they do randonneurs with 32 tires
>>> anyway?!
>>
>> Comfort, for one thing. The standard brevet lengths
>> are 200, 300, 400, 600, 1000 and 1200 km. All with
>> time limits, checkpoints, etc. The extra comfort
>> afforded by the larger tires becomes very helpful
>> after 8, 10, 50 hours in the saddle.
>
> Ha ha :) Definitely. But why not 40 or 47 tires then?
> They are not that much slower/heavier or less aero
> than 32 and even more comfortable.

I've seen more than a few 40ish tires on randonneurs* at brevets in
Oregon. Seems a bit excessive to me for a brevet, but I recognize some
of my preferences seem bizarre to others. Vive la difference.

Especially with
> a loaded bike I think 32 is too thin. But if that's
> the way it is I'm not letting it stop me from going,
> of course.

As noted by others, some bike frames won't clear wider tires; a defect
in design for a touring* bike, but there it is.

40 years ago in the US, touring bikes came with 27" wheels (as in
"630-32" vs "622-32"), and few tires wider than 32mm (1-1/4") were
available, nor would they fit most frames. Thousands of folks found
32mm sufficient for thousands of miles with heavy loads, but again,
alternatives were few back then. I'm inclined to agree that a wider
tire would have made things better.

Mark J.

* Notes: I use "touring bike" to mean a bike intended for multi-day
trips carrying camping gear. I use "randonneur" or "rando bike" to mean
a bike intended for brevets - 200 to 1200 km mostly self-supported rides
carrying the bare minimum for survival and ride completion.

[Mark J.]

On 5/26/2018 2:39 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 1:24:10 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> I usually carried 30 - 35 pounds total when traveling alone. That included
>> tent, sleeping bag, maybe a camp stove and some food. I always thought I took
>> too much, but I was never able to get my load much under 30 pounds, unless
>> it was "credit card touring," staying entirely in motels.
>>
>> Going coast to coast, I think I carried 40 pounds on my bike. But some of that
>> was stuff I carried for my ladies. It also included that backpacking stove
>> and food, which in retrospect was silly. They have restaurants.
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> When I hit the heat on the other side of the Rockies (going east), I mailed half of my gear back home -- including my rain gear. You don't need it for the Mid-West, mid-day deluge. Nothing will prevent you from getting soaked, but then you dry out in about ten minutes. My stove went back, too. It was too hot to cook.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

I never got far east of the Rockies, so the nights were cold, and I
carried a lot of stuff I shouldn't have, so my bike + equipment weighed
north of 100 lbs. That did include cooking gear, though, as I had no
budget for restaurants, which raises the cost/day very rapidly.

I do things radically differently now in my older, more comfortable
years. Back then I was a bit of an ox, in more ways than one.

Mark J.

[Mark J.]

On 5/26/2018 8:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> I'm not a cook, but I'd often take the backpacking stove and some simple
> boil-and-eat food just in case I was nowhere near a restaurant.
>
> Many years ago, I rode across Ohio west to east (following the Cardinal
> Trail) with an older retired friend. We carried no food. Now in the
> busiest times, rural western Ohio has very few places serving food; but
> this was Labor Day, and we kept finding the few restaurants were closed.
>
> One place that was open was a VFW hall - that is, Veterans of Foreign
> Wars. I told my friend "Hey, you can get us in there! You're a veteran
> of World War II!" And he really was. Trouble was, he fought for the
> other side!
>
> He had been captured and taken to New York State as a prisoner of war. I
> think it's to our country's credit that he was treated well enough that
> he decided to return and live in America after the war.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> On another cross-Ohio solo trip, I came up with what I thought was a
> brilliant solution for emergency food. Instead of a backpacking stove, I
> threw in one of those plug-in immersion heaters, the kind used to heat
> cups of coffee. And I threw in a freeze dried backpacking meal.
>
> Sure enough, in western Ohio I was out of daylight and camped at a state
> park. I got a site with electricity, poured water into the food's foil
> pack and heated it with the immersion heater. Not gourmet fare, but
> plenty tasty enough, and very light weight!

I'm no cook either, but I have some survival skills.

Standard bike-packing dinner:
Materials are available in most tiny rural grocery stores,
Quantities for one rider:
(1) box a macaroni-and-cheese dinner (dry pasta with cheese powder)
(1) small can of tuna or chicken
(1-3) cans of peas other vegetables, kidney beans, garbanzo
beans/chickpeas. Substitute whatever the tiny grocery has, to taste and
as needed.

Cook pasta as directed on box. The typically recommended margarine can
be omitted. Drain cooking water, add tuna (including water in can) and
vegetables, draining veg. water as needed for consistency. Warm as
needed. Gobble it up.

This works particularly well after a few days on tour when anything
looks good to eat. It has reasonable balance of carbs and protein for
touring.

It also got me through the first year of graduate school. Then I
married someone who could cook.

Mark J.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Sunday, May 27, 2018 at 9:45:04 PM UTC-5, James wrote:

> > And the trailer weighs about 15 pounds all
> > by itself empty. Far more than the weight of racks on a touring
> > bike. And the plastic bag on the Bob weighs more than the four
> > panniers too.
>
> Wow. You must have very light pannier bags. The ones I used when I was
> a lad were fairly heavy, made from canvas with hard boards and metal
> hooks, etc. Far heavier than the bag I have for my trailer.
>

Its been 50 years since panniers were made from canvas. And 40 years since hardboard was used as a stiffener. My panniers from 1992, 26 years ago, are made out of polyester/polypropylene material with plastic stiffeners. Still use metal hooks and elastic cords to hold the panniers to the racks. New panniers use plastic cloth for the bag and plastic sheets inside for stiffeners. And new fancy complicated attachment methods.

[AMuzi]

One nice feature of newer panniers is positive lock:
https://lonepeakpacks.com/index.php/packs/accessories/pannier-hooks.html

so they won't bounce off at a pothole. Many similar designs.

[jbeattie]

My 1975 Kirtlands are coated nylon packcloth with aluminum sheet stiffeners, although their contemporary competitor, Eclipse, had plastic stiffeners and a slide-mount system. A fairly complicated attachment system for the time.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/zbillster/2771397289/in/album-72157606789001880/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/zbillster/2772242938/in/album-72157606789001880/

Unless you're a Rivendell retro freak, canvas was passe at least 43 years ago, and I have the smelly evidence to prove it up in the attic. I have a newer set from REI that have a better fastener but are not materially better in terms of functionality. The leap in functionality was the Blackburn rack -- invented by Jim Blackburn, who graduated a few years ahead of me at SJSU, or as we call it, the Harvard of San Jose.

I owned a Burley trailer for hauling the kid but never used it for touring.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/28/2018 4:52 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> One nice feature of newer panniers is positive lock:
> https://lonepeakpacks.com/index.php/packs/accessories/pannier-hooks.html
>
> so they won't bounce off at a pothole. Many similar designs.

I had occasional trouble with panniers coming unhooked. While I don't
yet own any with positive locks, the concept is appealing.

I modified various panniers in various ways trying to improve the
attachments. By far the most frustrating were the attachments of the
Specialized Tailwind panniers: https://tinyurl.com/y7r8vezq
Each pannier had three U-shaped aluminum clips on the flat back of the
pannier. Those hooked around rack struts and had holes sized for a
clevis pin with a ring, like this but much shorter:
http://www.cads.com/Clevis%20Pin.jpg

In theory, you just hooked the pannier on the rack and popped in three
pins. They couldn't come loose.

In practice, to insert the pins, you were fighting to work between the
spokes, especially after the opposite pannier was in place. The aluminum
clips were plastic coated, but there were often rattles from the clips
or the pins or their rings. I never had one come loose, but I cursed
them fairly often.

The panniers did work well for me, though. The aerodynamic benefit was
actually detectable in coasting tests with a friend of equal weight on
an identical bike. And their small size helped discourage over-packing.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
>
> Unless you're a Rivendell retro freak, canvas was passe at least 43 years ago, and I have the smelly evidence to prove it up in the attic. I have a newer set from REI that have a better fastener but are not materially better in terms of functionality. The leap in functionality was the Blackburn rack -- invented by Jim Blackburn, who graduated a few years ahead of me at SJSU, or as we call it, the Harvard of San Jose.
>

> -- Jay Beattie.

I think Carradice still use canvas for their bags. The bag of choice by the late Mr. Jobst Brandt. My panniers use two hooks on the top, bolted through plastic sheets inside acting as a stiffener, inside the nylon/polyester/polypropylene/plastic panniers. And a hook on the bottom at the end of an elastic cord. Rarely one of the two top hooks will come off the rack rail if I hit a big pothole. Of course I use a Blackburn Expedition rack on the back.

[Radey Shouman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 5/28/2018 4:52 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> One nice feature of newer panniers is positive lock:
>> https://lonepeakpacks.com/index.php/packs/accessories/pannier-hooks.html
>>
>> so they won't bounce off at a pothole. Many similar designs.
>
> I had occasional trouble with panniers coming unhooked. While I don't
> yet own any with positive locks, the concept is appealing.

Lone peak retailers will sell you the hooks alone. I have a set laying
around somewhere that I bought to fit a second bicycle & rack (they have
two sizes). Most of my experience has been schlepping one back and
forth to work, in which service they have worked very well.

[James]

Yet 4 bags with hooks and plastic stiffeners and such, weigh less than a
single bag with a strap that's probably made from similar stuff? I
still find that hard to believe.

My trailer with bag is not a genuine Bob Yak. Perhaps genuine Bob bags
are extra heavy duty?

--
JS

[russell...@yahoo.com]

The Bob bag is all plastic. Heavy duty thick plastic. Its heavy. It weighs more than four lightweight polyester panniers with their included internal plastic stiffener and hooks.

https://www.amazon.com/BOB-Dry-Sak-Waterproof-Coated/dp/B000RHBNIO
Amazon says it weighs 2.9 pounds.

[Tim McNamara]

On Sun, 27 May 2018 09:48:48 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>

wrote:
> Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> writes:
>
>>> Great only too expensive, especially compared to the Fuji and in
>>> particular the amount of money in my wallet. Why do they do
>>> randonneurs with 32 tires anyway?!
>>
>> Comfort, for one thing. The standard brevet lengths are 200, 300,
>> 400, 600, 1000 and 1200 km. All with time limits, checkpoints, etc.
>> The extra comfort afforded by the larger tires becomes very helpful
>> after 8, 10, 50 hours in the saddle.
>
> Ha ha :) Definitely. But why not 40 or 47 tires then? They are not
> that much slower/heavier or less aero than 32 and even more

> comfortable. Especially with a loaded bike I think 32 is too thin. But

> if that's the way it is I'm not letting it stop me from going, of
> course.

Many people have toured all over the world on 700 x 23 or close tires.
Suboptimal to my thinking, but then it depends on the load you are
carrying. Igor Kovse, probably the chief evangalist of ultralight
touring, rides a bike that fully loaded weighs less than many people's
unloaded bikes. He's taken that setup through the Himalayas, etc. But
if you have 50 lbs of gear, using 23 mm tires is just making like hard
for yourself.

Tire width is a center of discussion in the randonneuring world. 700 x
~30 versus 650B x ~40-45 versus 559 x 50+. Of course, that world is a
tiny handful of riders, relatively speaking. The current trend is
towards thinking wider cushier tires are a net performance benefit. Of
course, in that crowd "wider" is often considered to be 40+ mm, not 25
mm as in the bike racing crowd.

There is a tradeoff with weight. A 44 mm wide tire in 700C weighs more
than in 650B or in 559 BSDs. So the bigger hoops tend to be shod with a
bit narrower tire and teh smaller hoops tend to have wider tires. It's
fairly easy to end up with very similar overall diameter wheels with the
smaller tires on the bigger rims and the bigger tires on the smaller
rims. The wheels' relative interia ends up being pretty similar.

650B x 40+ was the standard for brevet riders until the early to mid 50s
when the fastest riders were riding PBP on what were basically racing
wheels. Improved pavement and improved tires were a big part of that-
until the post-war reconstruction of Europe, it would not have been a
surprise to find 1/2 or more of a brevet on dirt roads or gravel.
Post-war Europe upgraded a lot of rural infrastructure much like the
Eisenhower interstate system, to make sure that troops and materiel were
readily transported in defense of the nation.

Narrower tires were believed to be faster, a common notion today, and
smoother pavement allowed the use of those tires and a perceived
benefit. A few decades ago, Jobst Brandt and the Avocet folks published
data suggesting that narrower = faster wasn't necessarily so. More
recently, Jan Heine has gone after that notion with a vengeance in his
publication and his product line (Compass Cycles) which makes high
quality high performance wide bike tires aimed primarily at the brevet
type or adventursome rider.

[Tim McNamara]

On Mon, 28 May 2018 11:06:49 -0700, Mark J. <MarkU...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> * Notes: I use "touring bike" to mean a bike intended for multi-day
> trips carrying camping gear. I use "randonneur" or "rando bike" to
> mean a bike intended for brevets - 200 to 1200 km mostly
> self-supported rides carrying the bare minimum for survival and ride
> completion.

Even there the standards are widely variable. My buddy Doug did a 600
km brevet on a racing bike with 23 mm tires, a patch kit and tire lever
and about $20 in cash. He was perfectly happy with that. I am not such
a minimalist. I'd have had a handlebar bag with two spare tubes, patch
kit, a compact tool kit (fits in an Altoids can but is surprisingly
complete), maybe a rain jacket, some food, money and ID, cell phone...
and my bike has fenders, generator lighting, wideish tires, etc.

[Tim McNamara]

On Sun, 27 May 2018 08:49:56 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> Back when the Earth was young, The Ancients discovered that 32h
> front/40h rear is as close to perfect as one might imagine. Adds some
> niggling cost and therefore abandoned.

As a tall, heavy guy I thnk that'd be about right. I have problems with
any rear wheel with less than 36 spokes if it has 7 or more cogs (7 x
135 mm wide is not a problem, very low dish wheel, but 7 or more with a
130 mm OLN is just bad design IMHO even though it is the standard. With
11 speeds, the OLN should be 140 or 145 mm unless the rider is under 120
lbs).

[AMuzi]

No provision for mountain lions? A rusty nail with matching
rock for chain repairs? Gallon of fresh brewed beer? You're
quite Spartan!

[sms]

On 5/25/2018 1:24 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
>

>> Touring bikes are common as fleas. Even the Trek 520
>> fits the bill.
>> https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/adventure-touring-bikes/520/520-disc/p/16295/?colorCode=black
>> Up to 44C without mudguards. You would have to add
>> CX levers and a dyno light.

>
> Great only too expensive, especially compared to the
> Fuji and in particular the amount of money in
> my wallet.
>
> Why do they do randonneurs with 32 tires anyway?!

Doesn't make sense. Of course if using the randonneur as a daily commute
bicycle it might make sense to put on tires that narrow. Otherwise, 700
x 35 would be the minimum.

[Emanuel Berg]

sms wrote:

>> Why do they do randonneurs with 32 tires
>> anyway?!
>
> Doesn't make sense. Of course if using the
> randonneur as a daily commute bicycle it
> might make sense to put on tires that narrow.
> Otherwise, 700 x 35 would be the minimum.

32 is too small IMO. If they put them on as the
default choice on a bike marketed as
a randonneur one would expect them not to
do that.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

[Emanuel Berg]

Tim McNamara wrote:

Very interesting post!

> Tire width is a center of discussion in the
> randonneuring world. 700 x ~30 versus 650B
> x ~40-45 versus 559 x 50+.

Let's see,
700 (here) is 700C or 622;
650B is 584;
and, 559 is 559, right?

If so, I think I'm in the 650Bx40 camp tho
I don't mind 28" wheels (if 650B is 27.5").

Why not 622-40?

> 650B x 40+ was the standard for brevet riders
> until the early to mid 50s when the fastest
> riders were riding PBP on what were basically
> racing wheels.

OK, so PBP is Paris-Brest-Paris but what is
a "brevet rider"?

A randonneur/randonneur rider?