Black Friday Deals on Bicycle Lights

[sms]

The spousal unit insists on a better light for her commutes. Three
requirements: "all-in-one" (no separate battery pouch), rechargeable,
and brighter than the current 1000 lumen light (4C) that she's using now.

I thought that this would be easy, but there's very little out there
with the battery not in a separate location.

I found two possibilities:

ITUO Wiz20. It uses two 18650 cells. $100.
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DNWCUAO>

Lezyne Deca Drive 1500XXL
<http://www.masherz.com/products/lezyne/decadrive1500xxlheadlight.htm>
$112 (25% off code).

Ordered her the latter. It actually would have been $11 less to order it
shipped from the UK, but I decided that it's better to give the money to
a U.S. bicycle shop, even if it isn't local.

Kind of disappointed that Lezyne moved to a non-swappable battery with
their latest generation.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Joerg]

On 2016-11-27 09:52, sms wrote:
> The spousal unit insists on a better light for her commutes. Three
> requirements: "all-in-one" (no separate battery pouch), rechargeable,
> and brighter than the current 1000 lumen light (4C) that she's using now.
>
> I thought that this would be easy, but there's very little out there
> with the battery not in a separate location.
>
> I found two possibilities:
>
> ITUO Wiz20. It uses two 18650 cells. $100.
> <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DNWCUAO>
>
> Lezyne Deca Drive 1500XXL
> <http://www.masherz.com/products/lezyne/decadrive1500xxlheadlight.htm>
> $112 (25% off code).
>
> Ordered her the latter. It actually would have been $11 less to order it
> shipped from the UK, but I decided that it's better to give the money to
> a U.S. bicycle shop, even if it isn't local.
>
> Kind of disappointed that Lezyne moved to a non-swappable battery with
> their latest generation.
>

I don't want to spoil the fun here but whether your wife will be happy
with it depends on how long she rides with lights. I ride with the
lights on all the time on my road bike and found that at the full 1000
lumens a battery with four 18650 cells lasts around 2-2.5h. Since my
rides are more like 4-5h I am going to swap the MTB battery with the
road bike one which will give me eight 18650 cells (which turned out to
be overkill on the MTB). Got to make new enclosures first though since I
don't like things flopping about on the frame.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[jbeattie]

[jbeattie]

On Sunday, November 27, 2016 at 10:03:29 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:

You need 1000 lumens during the day? Why don't you just use a little flasher or 250 lumen light or no light since you don't ride much around traffic anyway. I imagine that if you are doing 4-5 hours on your road bike, a lot of that is out in boonies away from traffic. I did a couple hours this morning with a little flasher that I ran now and then when I was in a high traffic areas, and it was raining or near raining.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tosspot]

On 27/11/16 18:52, sms wrote:
> The spousal unit insists on a better light for her commutes. Three
> requirements: "all-in-one" (no separate battery pouch), rechargeable,
> and brighter than the current 1000 lumen light (4C) that she's using now.
>
> I thought that this would be easy, but there's very little out there
> with the battery not in a separate location.
>
> I found two possibilities:
>
> ITUO Wiz20. It uses two 18650 cells. $100.
> <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DNWCUAO>
>
> Lezyne Deca Drive 1500XXL
> <http://www.masherz.com/products/lezyne/decadrive1500xxlheadlight.htm>
> $112 (25% off code).

Will you buggers *stop* pointing me at Lezyne products! I get the
screaming hebiejeebies every time I go to their site.

Nice light, not so expensive either, would complement my dynamo
system...<Aaargghhh>...

[sms]

On 11/27/2016 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote:

> I don't want to spoil the fun here but whether your wife will be happy
> with it depends on how long she rides with lights. I ride with the
> lights on all the time on my road bike and found that at the full 1000
> lumens a battery with four 18650 cells lasts around 2-2.5h. Since my
> rides are more like 4-5h I am going to swap the MTB battery with the
> road bike one which will give me eight 18650 cells (which turned out to
> be overkill on the MTB). Got to make new enclosures first though since I
> don't like things flopping about on the frame.

For her, it's about a 1 hour commute each way, and she can charge at
work. Should be about right for the Lezeyne. She only needs maximum
power on the totally unlit section of her ride along the San Tomas
Aquino trail.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

need James or Lieb explain if the proprietary battery is X more effective in a designed for system or if this idea avoids the obvious that the prop like most props yields more $$$

I'm halfway thru a swing down fog lamp bar with 2 Hella 550 either side one Amazon 7000 lumen LED. Solved the bad E250 high beam lighting with 2 bumper turning lamps from Hella n one center mounted spot in the bottom nacelle.

The swing down should brighten the low beams.

a final touch maybe this winter are electric motors controlling the Hella headlamps cradled. Maybe a 'return to zero' button down from 1/2 mile.

We gotta industry thumbs up on the project.

stopping the truck n walking out with a flashlight finding the next now turn is not my experience alone.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 17:52:27 -0800 (PST), DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
<avag...@gmail.com> wrote:

>need James or Lieb explain if the proprietary battery
>is X more effective in a designed for system or if
>this idea avoids the obvious that the prop like most
>props yields more $$$

A non-removable battery solves a few problem and is most certainly
cheaper than a removable battery.

By making it non-removable, the following parts disappear:
1. Battery holder with springs. You can use welded tab batteries.
2. Tolerance space for odd side and swollen batteries.
3. Separation between battery compartment and PCB (printed circuit
board).
4. Battery cover and chronically broken hinge and latch.
5. Inventory of batteries as an "accessory".
6. Claims that the light doesn't meet runtime specs because someone
crammed in a low quality battery.
7. Protection circuitry for a battery inserted backwards.
8. Battery ID chip inside battery case (for counterfeit detection).
9. Battery short circuit protection and BMS (battery managment
system).

A non-removable battery also:
1. Allows for an internal charge controller.
2. Allows for a smaller case.
3. Allows the use of "flat" prismatic cells (similar to a smartphone)
instead of cylinderical 18650 type cells.
4. Allows the use of a coulomb counter to act as a fuel gauge.
5. Whatever else I forgot.

My guess(tm) is that bicycle light manufacturers will follow the lead
of cell phone makers and tie their warranty to the life of the
battery. If the calculated life of the battery is perhaps 5 years,
the manufacturer can safely offer a 3 year warranty and be fairly
certain that the battery will be mostly functional at the end of the
warranty period. This eliminates the need to replace the battery
during the warranty. After the warranty expires, the manufacturer or
vendor could care less. It's now eWaste. That's the down side of a
non-removable battery. The light could continue to be used long past
the end of the warranty period, but only if the owner is willing to
tear it apart and replace the battery. But, if you're NOT willing to
replace the non-removable battery, you're buying what might be a
limited life, throw-away product.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Sir Ridesalot]

A non-removable battery can not be switiched out on a very long ride in the dark. A non-removable light can lose a fair bit of charge when it's very cold outside. An external b attery pack can be tuck up under one's jacket to warm the battery and keep it runninh longer. It's what I do in winter on lond rides in the dark.

Like everything, there are advantages and disadvantages that need to be considered for each person's needs or wants.

Cheers

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

NRB ( not rep bat) then profits by 2.5x@ inducing replacement light unit costs over 'normal' unit use able time while increasing use age effectiveness parameters.

More silk road

[sms]

I'm pretty sure that you, like me, have replaced non-removable batteries
in a variety of devices from cordless power tools to electric razors, to
cordless soldering irons.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I'm pretty sure that you, like me, have replaced non-removable batteries
in a variety of devices from cordless power tools to electric razors, to
cordless soldering irons.

no, avoid these devices as junk. Wenn.

eg, if the council has a factory producing lights, goes prop batts in device, then buys like Samsunk 1 gazzilion batts then daze stuck with 1 Gazz batts.

but the non prop device people allow further choices for ....better next batterations.

yes/no ?

the impossible....a secondary remote batt connection built in.

I have a PMD620 to Mineroff hydrophone rig with Curt trailer batt in Pelican n deck envelope.... forget getting the external DC to the PMD thru the PMD's connector. with Powerstream.

Why is this ? lack of protective circuitry suggests the Omni Lieb....

I hesitate. an expensive experiment but necessary operation.

Now what I need....I hear PS smiling ....is a PS inverter converting Curt to amphibious $90 PMD AC line unit to 620 .....

ahhhh shit ...............

[Joerg]

On roads, yes.


> ... Why don't you just use a little

> flasher or 250 lumen light or no light since you don't ride much
> around traffic anyway.

I had that but found that flashing irritates some people. It definitely
irritates horses and I often meet horseback riders on my routes.


> ... I imagine that if you are doing 4-5 hours on

> your road bike, a lot of that is out in boonies away from traffic.

Not always, depends on whether it is an errand dirt bikers. They don't
even have head lights on their machines and come at high speed. Since I
have 1000 lumens they see me instead of the other way around. I've had
several occasions where they were already stopped when I arrived. Still,
I think I can live with a battery that offers 30Wh of useful charge on
the MTB.

My road bike has to suffer bush roads at times even though it isn't a
cyclocross bike (but has a high-quality steel frame).


> ... I

> did a couple hours this morning with a little flasher that I ran now
> and then when I was in a high traffic areas, and it was raining or
> near raining.
>

They work, I've had one until recently.

[Joerg]

On 2016-11-27 15:05, sms wrote:
> On 11/27/2016 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> I don't want to spoil the fun here but whether your wife will be happy
>> with it depends on how long she rides with lights. I ride with the
>> lights on all the time on my road bike and found that at the full 1000
>> lumens a battery with four 18650 cells lasts around 2-2.5h. Since my
>> rides are more like 4-5h I am going to swap the MTB battery with the
>> road bike one which will give me eight 18650 cells (which turned out to
>> be overkill on the MTB). Got to make new enclosures first though since I
>> don't like things flopping about on the frame.
>
> For her, it's about a 1 hour commute each way, and she can charge at
> work. Should be about right for the Lezeyne. She only needs maximum
> power on the totally unlit section of her ride along the San Tomas
> Aquino trail.
>

1h is no problem. I found that USB re-charge is nice. My previous light
has re-chargeable Li-Ion the size of 18650 but the cap can be removed
and a USB plug shows up. Plugs into any contemporary computer and the
light ring on the battery turns from red to yellow when fully charged. I
always carried a spare though.

[sms]

On 11/27/2016 6:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> A non-removable battery also:
> 1. Allows for an internal charge controller.

There are lights (and many other devices) with internal charge
controllers that have removable batteries.

Ever since my Canon G2, I've preferred digital cameras with internal
charge controllers (though the batteries can also be charged externally).

[sms]

On 11/28/2016 7:59 AM, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> 1h is no problem. I found that USB re-charge is nice. My previous light
> has re-chargeable Li-Ion the size of 18650 but the cap can be removed
> and a USB plug shows up. Plugs into any contemporary computer and the
> light ring on the battery turns from red to yellow when fully charged. I
> always carried a spare though.

For the Lezyne it's best to use a higher current (2.1-2.4A) USB charger.
The USB ports on a computer are only guaranteed to put out 500mA, though
on most computers the over-current limit is set to 1000mA.

Lezyne sells a 2 amp charger
<http://www.lezyne.com/product-led-acc-intl2ausbkit.php> for about $20
in bicycle shops which is not gouging too much considering a 2.4A Micro
USB plug charger is $5.99 at Fry's <http://frys.com/product/8862002> but
probably $15 in most parts of the country.

O.T.:
I had someone working for me at a motherboard company who left to get
her MBA at Cal Berkeley. She needed a keyboard for her computer and went
to a computer store in Berkeley which offered her a used keyboard for
$30. She said "$30 for a used keyboard!? I can get a new keyboard for
$15 at Fry's." The store owner's reply, "yes, but most people in
Berkeley don't know that."

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:20:15 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>A non-removable battery can not be switiched out
>on a very long ride in the dark.

I beg to differ. The various "soft power switch" devices I've dealt
with, which lack a proper DC on/off switch, draw very little current
when off or in standby. Just about every laptop is like that, with
power being applied only to the switching circuitry and where the full
DC power does not go through the tiny on/off push button.

>A non-removable light can lose a fair bit of charge when it's
>very cold outside.

You might be looking at it backwards. A LiIon battery has a very low
self discharge rate when cold, and looses more power when warm:
<http://powerelectronics.com/mobile/designing-battery-packs-thermal-extremes>
<http://powerelectronics.com/site-files/powerelectronics.com/files/archive/powerelectronics.com/images/0606batterypacks-Figure04.jpg>
Self discharge happens without any load, so a tiny amount of current
needed to run the on/off switch doesn't even show on the graphs.

What does happen is the battery looses capacity when cold:
<http://images.slideplayer.com/16/4877973/slides/slide_13.jpg>
When cold, the battery simply will not run the light as long as it
would if it were warm. Actually, that's not quite right because there
is no loss of available power. If you charge a battery at 25C, put it
in the cooler at 0C, raise it back to 25C, and then run a discharge
test, it will show the original 25C battery capacity. Nothing is
"lost" when cooling the battery.

>An external b attery pack can be tuck up under one's jacket
>to warm the battery and keep it runninh longer. It's what
>I do in winter on lond rides in the dark.

Yep, that works to improve battery capacity. Running the light cold
is not a good idea, which would be a problem if the battery were
non-removable. I suppose I could add a small chemical heater to the
light assembly, but that would create additional problems.

>Like everything, there are advantages and disadvantages that
>need to be considered for each person's needs or wants.

Yep which is why I didn't offer a conclusion or definitive opinion.
Methinks the market can accommodate both types of battery systems
because everyone's use and environment will be different. What works
for one person, may not work for others. In my case, temperature is
not an issue as I'm a fair weather rider. For me, price is the major
consideration since I don't ride very often or need a headline on
every ride. I don't want to make the headlight an investment. Since
an internal battery is cheaper, that would be my preference.

I forgot to mumble something about the rider that forgets to charge
their battery before a ride. If the battery is non-replaceable, they
will need to wait until the charger is done charging. With
replaceable batteries, a spare charged battery would get them going
instantly. Unfortunately, I've had the opposite problem, where I plug
a set of half dead batteries into the light, thinking they were
charged. Half way into my ride, the lights go out.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 05:34:16 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>I'm pretty sure that you, like me, have replaced non-removable batteries
>in a variety of devices from cordless power tools to electric razors, to
>cordless soldering irons.

Yep, many times and for many people. Most vendors do not make the
batteries easy to replace. A few (Apple) make them intentionally
difficult to replace. Offhand, I would say that replacing these
non-replaceable batteries is a skill well beyond what the average
consumer would be expected to possess. Therefore, they need to go to
a professional repairman, or the neighbors bratty kid, to have them
replaced. Or, they can do a device exchange with the manufacturer.
Either way, it costs money to replace, which for the average consumer
might be better spent on a replacement light. My rule of thumb is
that customers are willing to pay up to 50% of the replacement cost of
a product to have it repaired. For a $100 light, that would be $10 in
batteries plus $40 in shipping, labor, handling, billing, etc. I
don't think I could make money doing that, so that leaves the consumer
with a throw away product.

Incidentally, I gave up on battery powered soldering irons long ago.
They don't get hot enough for what I normally solder. Also, I've done
a few Makita cordless drill conversions from NiCd/NiMH to LiIon
batteries. The battery packs are small enough to fit inside the
battery compartment (with foam spacers). The LiIon battery is charged
externally, using an RC style balance charger. 18v systems works best
because that's exactly 5 LiIon cells. 12v is a problem, but works
acceptably with 4 cells (14.4v).

[sms]

On 11/28/2016 10:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Incidentally, I gave up on battery powered soldering irons long ago.
> They don't get hot enough for what I normally solder.

I had the Wahl Isotip. But with lead-free solder you need a hotter iron.

This Dremel butane model is pretty good:
<http://www.frys.com/product/8871752>.

> Also, I've done
> a few Makita cordless drill conversions from NiCd/NiMH to LiIon
> batteries. The battery packs are small enough to fit inside the
> battery compartment (with foam spacers). The LiIon battery is charged
> externally, using an RC style balance charger. 18v systems works best
> because that's exactly 5 LiIon cells. 12v is a problem, but works
> acceptably with 4 cells (14.4v).

Li-Ion is supposed to be charged with 4.2V per cell to charge to 3.7V
per cell. We have a device at work with 3 cells and a 12V charger works,
but I can't imagine doing 4 cells with a 12V charger.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 08:08:55 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 11/27/2016 6:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> A non-removable battery also:
>> 1. Allows for an internal charge controller.
>
>There are lights (and many other devices) with internal charge
>controllers that have removable batteries.
>
>Ever since my Canon G2, I've preferred digital cameras with internal
>charge controllers (though the batteries can also be charged externally).

The trend seems to be towards external chargers, especially in the
tool business. The idea is that you buy two batteries. One battery
is on charge while the other is being used in the tools. My various
DeWalt tools are supplied with 2 batteries using that philosophy. I
have a similar system for some of my cameras and cell phones. I have
spare batteries and external chargers for each of them, even if they
are capable of internal charging. I find that things tend to work
better and last longer if I do the charging externally with a timed,
balanced, and monitored charger, than with a minimalist internal
charger.

My theory is that if an internal charger or battery management system
was provide with a non-removable light, the manufacturer would provide
a better quality charger, with a coulomb counting fuel gauge, that is
customized to properly charge only the attached battery. It may get
its power from an external automotive +12V source, but the actual
charging circuit is separate. In order to have the light and battery
survive the warranty period, the charger could need to be battery than
rudimentary. That would a little more difficult to do if the charge
history was reset every time the battery was removed from the light,
or when a different brand or chemistry cell was introduced.

[Joerg]

On 2016-11-28 10:36, sms wrote:
> On 11/28/2016 7:59 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> 1h is no problem. I found that USB re-charge is nice. My previous light
>> has re-chargeable Li-Ion the size of 18650 but the cap can be removed
>> and a USB plug shows up. Plugs into any contemporary computer and the
>> light ring on the battery turns from red to yellow when fully charged. I
>> always carried a spare though.
>
> For the Lezyne it's best to use a higher current (2.1-2.4A) USB charger.
> The USB ports on a computer are only guaranteed to put out 500mA, though
> on most computers the over-current limit is set to 1000mA.
>

That sounds like people didn't pay attention during the design review,
hoping they held at least one. My hand would have gone up immediately.
In this day and age it should be no problem to provide some "secret"
button-press sequence that switches the charge current from 2A to 400mA
or so and keeps it latched there until further notice. Usually that's a
no-cost feature except for a few engineering hours or NRE. Many people
will want to be able to just plug it into their workplace computer
instead of having to have yet another wall wart in the already cluttered
pencil drawer. Then you ride to another place and ... dang ... forgot to
bring that wall wart, can't charge, hopefully the meeting will be over
before it gets dark ...

Your wife would have to get two chargers or always schlepp the one back
and forth.

I also can't imagine repeated 2A charging being very healthy for a
Li-Ion cell of 18650 or similar size. Sometimes I wonder whether
engineers are always up to snuff. For example, many batteries are
default-charged to 4.2V cell voltage. Not always a good thing. I stop my
charge at 3.9V to 4V if the respective bike isn't going to be used a
while or 4.1V if the route isn't long. That can easily double the
service life. Right now I am doing that with a timer and a meter but
when I have more free time I am going to build a smart charger that lets
me dial in "fill levels". The set and forget kind.

> Lezyne sells a 2 amp charger
> <http://www.lezyne.com/product-led-acc-intl2ausbkit.php> for about $20
> in bicycle shops which is not gouging too much considering a 2.4A Micro
> USB plug charger is $5.99 at Fry's <http://frys.com/product/8862002> but
> probably $15 in most parts of the country.
>
> O.T.:
> I had someone working for me at a motherboard company who left to get
> her MBA at Cal Berkeley. She needed a keyboard for her computer and went
> to a computer store in Berkeley which offered her a used keyboard for
> $30. She said "$30 for a used keyboard!? I can get a new keyboard for
> $15 at Fry's." The store owner's reply, "yes, but most people in
> Berkeley don't know that."
>

:-)

You'd also not know if it wasn't a previous customer return. I had too
many bad experiences and do not shop there anymore. Got a story there.

[sms]

On 11/28/2016 11:09 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-11-28 10:36, sms wrote:
>> On 11/28/2016 7:59 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> 1h is no problem. I found that USB re-charge is nice. My previous light
>>> has re-chargeable Li-Ion the size of 18650 but the cap can be removed
>>> and a USB plug shows up. Plugs into any contemporary computer and the
>>> light ring on the battery turns from red to yellow when fully charged. I
>>> always carried a spare though.
>>
>> For the Lezyne it's best to use a higher current (2.1-2.4A) USB charger.
>> The USB ports on a computer are only guaranteed to put out 500mA, though
>> on most computers the over-current limit is set to 1000mA.
>>
>
> That sounds like people didn't pay attention during the design review,
> hoping they held at least one. My hand would have gone up immediately.
> In this day and age it should be no problem to provide some "secret"
> button-press sequence that switches the charge current from 2A to 400mA
> or so and keeps it latched there until further notice. Usually that's a
> no-cost feature except for a few engineering hours or NRE.

Not at all. The USB spec has a minimum charge current as well as a maximum.

USB-C can go up to 5A, hence the new Macbook Pro being charged via USB-C.

There are UL/CSA/TUV reasons for limiting the current. The old AT and
ATX keyboard/mouse ports had a 500mA Picofuse.

> Your wife would have to get two chargers or always schlepp the one back
> and forth.
>
> I also can't imagine repeated 2A charging being very healthy for a
> Li-Ion cell of 18650 or similar size.

Perfectly acceptable to charge a 2800mAH 18650 at 0.7C rate which would
be a little less than 2A. Some custom charging systems, like on a Tesla,
charge the 18650s at a much higher rate on a Supercharger, but they have
some kind of an active cooling system, and they're using 3400mAH 18650
cells in at least some of their packs.

[Joerg]

On 2016-11-28 11:21, sms wrote:
> On 11/28/2016 11:09 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-11-28 10:36, sms wrote:
>>> On 11/28/2016 7:59 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> 1h is no problem. I found that USB re-charge is nice. My previous light
>>>> has re-chargeable Li-Ion the size of 18650 but the cap can be removed
>>>> and a USB plug shows up. Plugs into any contemporary computer and the
>>>> light ring on the battery turns from red to yellow when fully
>>>> charged. I
>>>> always carried a spare though.
>>>
>>> For the Lezyne it's best to use a higher current (2.1-2.4A) USB charger.
>>> The USB ports on a computer are only guaranteed to put out 500mA, though
>>> on most computers the over-current limit is set to 1000mA.
>>>
>>
>> That sounds like people didn't pay attention during the design review,
>> hoping they held at least one. My hand would have gone up immediately.
>> In this day and age it should be no problem to provide some "secret"
>> button-press sequence that switches the charge current from 2A to 400mA
>> or so and keeps it latched there until further notice. Usually that's a
>> no-cost feature except for a few engineering hours or NRE.
>
> Not at all. The USB spec has a minimum charge current as well as a maximum.
>
> USB-C can go up to 5A, hence the new Macbook Pro being charged via USB-C.
>
> There are UL/CSA/TUV reasons for limiting the current. The old AT and
> ATX keyboard/mouse ports had a 500mA Picofuse.
>

The latter is just the point. I've seen cases where a supposedly
resettable thermo-fuse (probably not Pico) has decided to come on for
good, leaving a small patch of "scorched earth" on the circuit board and
an amperage smell wafted through the air.

In other case there was just a little PHUT sound and from then on that
USB port no longer worked.

When I design circuitry like this I never use anything thermal. It's
always a real electronic solution for current limiting.

>> Your wife would have to get two chargers or always schlepp the one back
>> and forth.
>>
>> I also can't imagine repeated 2A charging being very healthy for a
>> Li-Ion cell of 18650 or similar size.
>
> Perfectly acceptable to charge a 2800mAH 18650 at 0.7C rate which would
> be a little less than 2A.

Aceptable from a safety point of view, yes. Battery life? Not so much:

http://powerelectronics.com/portable_power_management/battery_charger_ics/804PET22li-ion-battery-life.pdf

Quote "Avoid high charge and discharge currents. High charge and
discharge currents reduce cycle life. Some chemistries are more suited
for higher currents such as Li-ion manganese and Li-ion phosphate. High
currents place excessive stress on the battery".

Heat is the enemy of most rechargeable batteries. Fast chargers employ
cooling or at least temperature sensing.


> ... Some custom charging systems, like on a Tesla,

> charge the 18650s at a much higher rate on a Supercharger, but they have
> some kind of an active cooling system, and they're using 3400mAH 18650
> cells in at least some of their packs.
>

That is a well dialed-in system with cooling and whatnot. Very different
ballgame.

I am using slow-charge on my old cell phone and after about 10 years it
is still on the first battery and no discernible loss in uptime per
charge. Same on the bicycle batteries which are 4400mAh on the MTB and
8800mAh on the road bike (will be swapped soon). Those get charge at
about 1A. If I'd be a bicycle messenger I'd have a souped-up hub dynamo
for charging. SEPIC switcher and maybe an MPPT algorithm, plus probably
a downhill switch.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 10:52:38 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 11/28/2016 10:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>> Incidentally, I gave up on battery powered soldering irons long ago.
>> They don't get hot enough for what I normally solder.
>
>I had the Wahl Isotip. But with lead-free solder you need a hotter iron.
>
>This Dremel butane model is pretty good:
><http://www.frys.com/product/8871752>.

I have a similar model that I use when soldering on top of a radio
tower. The slightest breeze instantly cools the tip. Butane works
nicely, as long as the copper tip is reasonably massive.

>> Also, I've done
>> a few Makita cordless drill conversions from NiCd/NiMH to LiIon
>> batteries. The battery packs are small enough to fit inside the
>> battery compartment (with foam spacers). The LiIon battery is charged
>> externally, using an RC style balance charger. 18v systems works best
>> because that's exactly 5 LiIon cells. 12v is a problem, but works
>> acceptably with 4 cells (14.4v).

>Li-Ion is supposed to be charged with 4.2V per cell to charge to 3.7V
>per cell. We have a device at work with 3 cells and a 12V charger works,
>but I can't imagine doing 4 cells with a 12V charger.

Lithium-ion almost immediately drops in voltage after the initial
charge. It starts at 4.2v and is down to about 3.9v fairly quickly.
It then spends most of its life between 3.9v and 3.6v. 4 cells at
3.9v = 15.6v. This is well above the nominal battery voltage for NiCd
or NiMh. However, the Makita drill motors seem to handle it nicely
and I like the extra power. The drills would have ended up as eWaste
because of the high cost of replacement batteries and the tendency for
the stock chargers to kill batteries.

I currently considering a 9.6v Makita battery upgrade. I'm undecided
if I should go with 2 cells (7.2v) or 3 cells (10.8v). Probably the
higher voltage.

Also, I don't use the stock Makita charger with my replacement LiIon
battery packs. I use XT60 RC power connectors, 4S balance charger
connector, to an iMax B6 balance charger:
<https://hobbyking.com/en_us/imax-b6-50w-5a-charger-discharger-1-6-cells-genuine.html>
A pull string allows the battery to be easily removed and replaced
with a charged battery. I'm a little worried about shorts as I'm
using unprotected cells and do not have a BMS (battery managment
system).

[Joerg]

IMO the best is what (as usual ...) the motor vehicle industry offers
since, oh, 100 years or so. Lights plus central battery. This is what I
have on both bicycles. What is still missing is a generator or dynamo
but the packs are plenty large to last even long rides in the dark. I
might add that to my road bike next time the front rim is up.

When using standard connectors it would also be possible to swap out a
pack in case the ride was way longer than planned or the rider forgot to
turn off the lights at the destination.

The sad part is that those packs only come in some flimsy
velcro-fastened holders which flop about during rough ride, or ... fall
off. On the MTB I gave it a smash-proof enclosure in which it rides
fasted around rubber cushions. On the road bike it rides in the right
pannier but that needs to change. Why on earth they don't offer these as
a stack to be mounted inside the seat tube or fork tube I'll never
understand.

Tying a good rear light into the circuitry also requires some
home-brewing. As usual with bicycles.

[sms]

On 11/28/2016 3:23 PM, Joerg wrote:

> IMO the best is what (as usual ...) the motor vehicle industry offers
> since, oh, 100 years or so. Lights plus central battery. This is what I
> have on both bicycles. What is still missing is a generator or dynamo
> but the packs are plenty large to last even long rides in the dark. I
> might add that to my road bike next time the front rim is up.

The issue with a bicycle, that you don't have with a car, is that you
have to remove things like expensive lights when locking a bicycle where
you can't watch it. I would have a hard time convincing the spousal unit
to start removing battery packs AND the light. Her current light is a 4C
1000 lumen light that's big, but it snaps out of the very sturdy holder
that I constructed.

Similarly, convincing her to start removing batteries to charge them
externally is not going to be a likely scenario--but plugging a
Micro-USB cable in is going to be easy since she's charging her phones
at work (her employer provides an iPhone for work use only, and she has
to carry a second phone for anything personal).

I was thinking of a 1300 lumen 26650 light with an internal charger
<http://www.mankerlight.com/bundle-manker-u21-5000mah-26650-rechargeable-battery/>
with a 5000mAH 26650 battery for $78.95.

The Lezyne uses a 2 cell battery so the run time is a little longer and
the output a little higher. Also, I've had issues with single LED lights
at such high power, it's difficult to provide a thermal solution.

> The sad part is that those packs only come in some flimsy
> velcro-fastened holders which flop about during rough ride, or ... fall
> off.

True.

[Phil Lee]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Mon, 28 Nov 2016

If your aim is to increase your own visibility to others, you just
can't beat a brightly coloured shirt or jacket, ideally in some colour
which doesn't occur naturally in the background of wherever you are
riding. Avoid patterns, as they break up your outline (the first
lesson of camouflage).
Most of the year, bright yellow works well here, but not when the
oilseed rape is flowering, as there are lots of fields of that around
here. When that was out, I always changed to red. I never found
anywhere selling electric blue, but it should be effective just about
anywhere and anytime, as it doesn't occur in nature that I know of.
Fluorescent yellow, green, orange and pink all seem to be reasonably
widely available.
After dark, switch to reflectives, as fluorescents almost vanish in
the absence of UV.
Reflectives are almost useless in daylight though, and although they
can be woven into fabric - I've seen a very expensive pinstripe suit
made with retro-reflective pinstripes, which just look grey in
daylight (ideal for the city gent commuting by bike!) - I've yet to
see a similar fabric with retro-reflective pinstripes in a fluorescent
bright fabric.
A gap in the market for your undoubted skills!

[Phil Lee]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> considered Mon, 28 Nov 2016

10:38:06 -0800 the perfect time to write:

>On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:20:15 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
><i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>>A non-removable battery can not be switiched out
>>on a very long ride in the dark.
>
>I beg to differ. The various "soft power switch" devices I've dealt
>with, which lack a proper DC on/off switch, draw very little current
>when off or in standby. Just about every laptop is like that, with
>power being applied only to the switching circuitry and where the full
>DC power does not go through the tiny on/off push button.

I think you've misunderstood - by "switched out" I believe Sir means
exchanged for a fully charged battery. If the battery is not
removable, you would have to either carry a spare light, or limit the
length of night rides to the battery duration.

>
>>A non-removable light can lose a fair bit of charge when it's
>>very cold outside.
>
>You might be looking at it backwards. A LiIon battery has a very low
>self discharge rate when cold, and looses more power when warm:
><http://powerelectronics.com/mobile/designing-battery-packs-thermal-extremes>
><http://powerelectronics.com/site-files/powerelectronics.com/files/archive/powerelectronics.com/images/0606batterypacks-Figure04.jpg>
>Self discharge happens without any load, so a tiny amount of current
>needed to run the on/off switch doesn't even show on the graphs.
>
>What does happen is the battery looses capacity when cold:
><http://images.slideplayer.com/16/4877973/slides/slide_13.jpg>
>When cold, the battery simply will not run the light as long as it
>would if it were warm. Actually, that's not quite right because there
>is no loss of available power. If you charge a battery at 25C, put it
>in the cooler at 0C, raise it back to 25C, and then run a discharge
>test, it will show the original 25C battery capacity. Nothing is
>"lost" when cooling the battery.

Except the ability to operate at that low temperature.
Once in operation, the internal temperature can be maintained simply
by the battery's own chemical action (if it's fairly well insulated),
but if you can't get it to START powering the light, you are stuck.
Then the ability to stick the battery in your armpit for a while can
be very handy, and having it permanently installed in the light makes
the package bulkier and more difficult to carry in such a warm spot,
as well as providing thermal insulation which means you must keep it
in that warm spot for longer before the battery itself is warmed
enough.

>
>>An external b attery pack can be tuck up under one's jacket
>>to warm the battery and keep it runninh longer. It's what
>>I do in winter on lond rides in the dark.
>
>Yep, that works to improve battery capacity. Running the light cold
>is not a good idea, which would be a problem if the battery were
>non-removable. I suppose I could add a small chemical heater to the
>light assembly, but that would create additional problems.
>
>>Like everything, there are advantages and disadvantages that
>>need to be considered for each person's needs or wants.
>
>Yep which is why I didn't offer a conclusion or definitive opinion.
>Methinks the market can accommodate both types of battery systems
>because everyone's use and environment will be different. What works
>for one person, may not work for others. In my case, temperature is
>not an issue as I'm a fair weather rider. For me, price is the major
>consideration since I don't ride very often or need a headline on
>every ride. I don't want to make the headlight an investment. Since
>an internal battery is cheaper, that would be my preference.
>
>I forgot to mumble something about the rider that forgets to charge
>their battery before a ride. If the battery is non-replaceable, they
>will need to wait until the charger is done charging. With
>replaceable batteries, a spare charged battery would get them going
>instantly. Unfortunately, I've had the opposite problem, where I plug
>a set of half dead batteries into the light, thinking they were
>charged. Half way into my ride, the lights go out.

I always carried spares, even on short rides - you just never know
when something may delay you, and having spares also allows you to
extend the ride on a whim, or to give assistance to others.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Thank you Phil. You are correct. Switching out the battery does mean removing the battery and replacing it with a fresh one. Where I live it's dark now about 4:30 PM and I do a lot of night riding. I've had instances where I've had to remve the battery pack from my water bottle holder and put the battery pack inside my jacket in order to warm it enough to use. I've also had times when I need to replace the battery whilst on a nigh ride. By changing the connectors on the battery and on the cable that leads to the light from the battery holder, I was able to buy other batteries for half the price at a model radio-control shop. With those extra battery packs i can head out for an all night ride even in winter if I want to. The light is a Cygo Lite Rover II and its external battery pack is fitted inside a casing designed to fit snuggly inside a water bottle holder on the bike frame. This light is quite good and lights up the road far betterthan almost any flashlight-come-bicycle-light does. The latter usually has too narrow a beam to see both lanes of a 2-lane road and seeing thiose 2 lanes is need when I ride in the country wherethere is no other lighting on the roads.

Cheers

[sms]

On 11/28/2016 6:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

> Thank you Phil. You are correct. Switching out the battery does mean removing the battery and replacing it with a fresh one. Where I live it's dark now about 4:30 PM and I do a lot of night riding. I've had instances where I've had to remve the battery pack from my water bottle holder and put the battery pack inside my jacket in order to warm it enough to use. I've also had times when I need to replace the battery whilst on a nigh ride. By changing the connectors on the battery and on the cable that leads to the light from the battery holder, I was able to buy other batteries for half the price at a model radio-control shop. With those extra battery packs i can head out for an all night ride even in winter if I want to. The light is a Cygo Lite Rover II and its external battery pack is fitted inside a casing designed to fit snuggly inside a water bottle holder on the bike frame. This light is quite good and lights up the road far betterthan almost any flashlight-come-bicycle-light does. The latter usually has too narrow a beam to see both lanes of a 2-lane road and seeing thiose 2 lanes is need when I ride in the country wherethere is no other lighting on the roads.

While it may be harder to put a light with an internal battery under
your arm in cold weather, the flip side is that with any LED light
you're generating a lot of waste heat that's being dissipated by the
heat sink (generally the aluminum case). That waste heat will warm the
battery compartment. With an external battery pack you don't have that
advantage.

The best option for cold weather is a removable internal battery where
you can warm just the battery but Jeff had a good list of the reasons to
use non-removable batteries. The increase in reliability is probably
worth the trouble it is to replace "non-removable" batteries when they
lose capacity. How many of us have had to deal with broken battery
covers and bad spring-loaded connections on various devices. It's not
just for planned obsolescence that more and more devices have non-user
replaceable internal rechargeable batteries.

To me, the big advantage of user-replaceable batteries is the ability to
carry spares for longer duration. Apparently that is not of paramount
concern with longer lasting internal batteries.

[Frank Krygowski]

All your fussing and scheming makes me glad I'm using dynamo lights.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/28/2016 10:56 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-11-27 10:39, jbeattie wrote:
>>
>>
>> You need 1000 lumens during the day?
>
> On roads, yes.

Because, you know, Danger! Danger!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Monday, November 28, 2016 at 10:14:20 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped

> All your fussing and scheming makes me glad I'm using dynamo lights.
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

I just knew you'd be chimijng in with a dynamo hub comment. VBEG LOL

The problems with many dynamo hubs and lights is that #1 they're not easily transferable amongst bicycles one owns and #2 they are often far too dim at low speeds to be useful. I tried a quality dynamo at a bicycle shop one night and the light at low speed flickered far too much to be useful - it was nearly as bad as trying to ride at night on dark roads whilst using a strobing light. thanks but no thanks. my battery light works very well for me and it has for 9 years now.

Cheers

[sms]

LOL. Dynamo lights are fine if you're riding in town on streets with
street lights. I have dynamos on several bicycles, and the lights are
adequate at moderate speed.

But in very dark areas, at low speed, sadly they just don't cut it.

[sms]

On 11/28/2016 7:22 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

The three main debates on r.b.t. neatly summarized:

1. Oil versus paraffin
Paraffin is cleaner and even though it doesn't last very long, and
causes shifting problems, it's worth the trouble of rewaxing often
Liquid lubricants are dirtier but lubricate better and it's worth
the hassle of cleaning the chain more often

2. Dynamos versus batteries
Dynamos: dealing with batteries is a pain and lower brightness and
less safety is an acceptable compromise
Batteries: battery lights provide greater illumination and safety
and dealing with charging batteries is worth the hasssle

3. Helmets versus no helmets
Helmets: Helmets reduce the liklihood of head injury in the event
of a head impact crash, but mess up your hair
No helmets: The liklihood of a head impact crash is small and not
worth "helmet hair."

[James]

On 29/11/16 10:23, Joerg wrote:

>
> IMO the best is what (as usual ...) the motor vehicle industry
> offers since, oh, 100 years or so. Lights plus central battery. This
> is what I have on both bicycles. What is still missing is a generator
> or dynamo but the packs are plenty large to last even long rides in
> the dark. I might add that to my road bike next time the front rim is
> up.

OTOH my bicycle with the hub dynamo and headlight with supercap stand
light does what lights on a car do. I can turn them on with the flick
of a switch at anytime I'm moving, and they can even turn themselves on
based on the ambient light levels - which is more advanced than most
cars! I guess if you want more light while you're riding up a 30% rough
track you could mess about with extra batteries, but for 99.99% of
people, that isn't a consideration.

--
JS

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 22:14:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>All your fussing and scheming makes me glad I'm using dynamo lights.

Well, there are advantages to using dynamo lighting, none of which
apply to anything I'm doing. The problem with dynamo lighting is that
we've reached a limit to how much power we're willing to drain from
the human powered drive train to run the lighting. That's about 3
watts at cruising speeds and 6 watts riding like a maniac. At an
optimistic 100 lumens/watt for commodity LED's, this limits a dynamo
powered light to 300 to 600 lumens maximum. Most are less, although
I've seen larger claims. Meanwhile, battery operated lights produce
far more light. For example, the Lezyne Deca Drive 1500XXL under
discussion claims 1500 lumens. Whether one needs such brightness is
subject to some debate, but big numbers do look good on the data sheet
and in the reviews. Think of this as battery powered lighting taking
off from where dynamo powered lighting ran out of steam.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:23:56 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>IMO the best is what (as usual ...) the motor vehicle industry offers
>since, oh, 100 years or so. Lights plus central battery.

Amazing. We agree on something.

I've been suggesting that once the bicycle has a built in battery
system, with integrated wiring and a proper controller, all manner of
electronic things can be attached. It's not just the front and rear
lights that need power. There's also the smartphone, radio, GPS,
anti-theft device, camera, transponder, rail gun, death ray, etc, that
need power. It's that first step that's the problem.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 01:48:11 +0000, Phil Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>I think you've misunderstood - by "switched out" I believe Sir means
>exchanged for a fully charged battery.

Guilty as charged. I misread the comment and assumed that "switch"
was a noun, rather than a verb.

>If the battery is not
>removable, you would have to either carry a spare light, or limit the
>length of night rides to the battery duration.

Some smartphones (Apple) have the same problem. To solve the problem,
an external battery pack, with a USB output, that will charge the
phone was invented.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=usb+battery+pack&tbm=isch>
If the bicycle light accepts a common micro USB charge connector, an
external pack can be used to recharge a non-removable internal
battery. The Lezyne Deca Drive 1500XXL uses a micro USB connector, so
it should work. However, no clue on charge time. Also, no clue on
whether the light will charge and operate as a light at the same time.

>Except the ability to operate at that low temperature.

True, and that can be a problem. I live in a fairly temperate area,
so it's not an issue for me. I couldn't find any specs on the
operating temperature range:
<http://www.lezyne.com/product-led-perf-deca1500xxl.php>

>Once in operation, the internal temperature can be maintained simply
>by the battery's own chemical action (if it's fairly well insulated),
>but if you can't get it to START powering the light, you are stuck.

Yep, that's a problem, which might be solved by the external USB
battery pack plugged into the charge connector. It might also be
possible to waste a little power and provide some heat in the battery
compartment. I don't know enough about the charging system in the
light to determine if it will work.

>Then the ability to stick the battery in your armpit for a while can
>be very handy, and having it permanently installed in the light makes
>the package bulkier and more difficult to carry in such a warm spot,
>as well as providing thermal insulation which means you must keep it
>in that warm spot for longer before the battery itself is warmed
>enough.

Much depends on how you use the light. In my case, I remove my
headlight when I go into a store or building. It may be cold outside,
but the light is essentially at room temperature. If I stop
somewhere, I take everything off again. The light doesn't spend much
time turned off in the cold. However, if I were going for a long
ride, with no opportunity to warm up the light at stops, there might
be a problem.

>I always carried spares, even on short rides - you just never know
>when something may delay you, and having spares also allows you to
>extend the ride on a whim, or to give assistance to others.

[James]

I don't have either of the problems you describe. LOL indeed!

--
JS

[James]

On 29/11/16 15:49, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 22:14:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> All your fussing and scheming makes me glad I'm using dynamo lights.
>
> Well, there are advantages to using dynamo lighting, none of which
> apply to anything I'm doing. The problem with dynamo lighting is that
> we've reached a limit to how much power we're willing to drain from
> the human powered drive train to run the lighting. That's about 3
> watts at cruising speeds and 6 watts riding like a maniac. At an
> optimistic 100 lumens/watt for commodity LED's, this limits a dynamo
> powered light to 300 to 600 lumens maximum. Most are less, although
> I've seen larger claims. Meanwhile, battery operated lights produce
> far more light. For example, the Lezyne Deca Drive 1500XXL under
> discussion claims 1500 lumens. Whether one needs such brightness is
> subject to some debate, but big numbers do look good on the data sheet
> and in the reviews. Think of this as battery powered lighting taking
> off from where dynamo powered lighting ran out of steam.
>

Except when the battery dies and then the dynamo keeps on steaming on
while the battery has run out of steam, so to speak.

--
JS

[Sir Ridesalot]

So, how does it take you to switch your dynamo wheel and light to another bike and then to adjust the brakes to fit that wheel? My Cygo Lite Rover II (or any of the other similar Cygo Lite lights)take only a few seconds to take off one bike and put onto another even if one bike is a road bike and the other is an MTB. I bet your dynamo wheel can't do that. LOL VBEG

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

My Cygo Lite Rover II (and all similar Cygo Lite lights) can give me maxinum brightness at any speed or even when stopped for quite some time such as doing a night time repair or using the light as a head mounted light to walk around at night in the woods. There are advantages and disadvantages to both battery and dynamao powered lights. What one chooses to use will depend on one's needs and uses for the light.

Cheers

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Removing n remounting equipment is disciplined. An action separating intelligent n unintelligent life forms.

[Duane]

What about the mountain lions?

--
duane

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 5:52:58 AM UTC-5, Duane wrote:
Snipped

>
> What about the mountain lions?
>
> --
> duane

Funny isn't it that a guy who complains about the dangers of mountain lions will wander around their teritory whilst looking for a fence with a nail in it and a rock to hit the nail with and then a boulder with a crak in it so he can repair a chain? Kind of boggles the mind.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

Tasty.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Duane]

Yes, but I meant the other main debate. Mountain Lions - justification
to use 10000 lumen lights to see around corners in broad daylight but
not enough justification to carry a 200g chain tool.

[jbeattie]

Battery lights are clearly better in terms of light output. Dyno lights are simultaneously more and less convenient. More convenient because there is no charging, less convenient because you can't swap them quickly from one bike to another, and if you damage the wheel, you're out of a light. Not having to charge is a significant benefit.

My Luxos B, a well regarded dyno light, is basically useless in the rain. It is fine on dry pavement in a city environment. My SECA 1400 is like a stadium light on full power and much, much better in the rain and on trail sections, even when it is dry. It has a short run time on full output but is probably good for four hours on low output. It has a separate and inconvenient battery that I strap to my stem. An all-in-one would be ideal, and some of them are very good in terms of output and run times.

I did the dyno thing as a science project and because I got a killer deal on a SP PD8. I use the dyno on my commuter with a small flasher on my bars. If someone asked me what I recommended, it would be a <$100 all in one -- maybe one of the offerings from L&M or Nightrider. Good dynos/lights are too expensive; they do not produce much light, and most people don't ride for hours at night and are accustomed to charging electronic devices like phones. I have many friends who are serious commuters, and they use battery lights -- even though dyno lights are available from a number of sources in Portland.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Duane]

Rechargeable battery lights are what I use. But I mostly need them in
the rain or the morning or evening commute depending on the season and
can charge them at the office. I don't use DRLs on sunny days.

But like someone said, up here in the great north, this time of year
night comes at around 4:30. If you want to ride a bunch at night you
may want something that lasts longer than 4 hours. And given the cold,
maybe less than 4 hours.

Good to have choices.

[Frank Krygowski]

Agreed. Most of my dynamo headlights have standlights. Flickering may
be barely visible if I'm riding less than 3 mph, but I can't say for
sure. In any case, so what?

And regarding transferring lights and dynamos between bikes: I wouldn't
do that any more than I'd transfer headlights and alternators between
cars. Each vehicle has its own headlight.

But ride what you like.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

its relative

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/28/2016 11:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 22:14:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> All your fussing and scheming makes me glad I'm using dynamo lights.
>
> Well, there are advantages to using dynamo lighting, none of which
> apply to anything I'm doing. The problem with dynamo lighting is that
> we've reached a limit to how much power we're willing to drain from
> the human powered drive train to run the lighting. That's about 3
> watts at cruising speeds and 6 watts riding like a maniac. At an
> optimistic 100 lumens/watt for commodity LED's, this limits a dynamo
> powered light to 300 to 600 lumens maximum. Most are less, although
> I've seen larger claims. Meanwhile, battery operated lights produce
> far more light. For example, the Lezyne Deca Drive 1500XXL under
> discussion claims 1500 lumens. Whether one needs such brightness is
> subject to some debate, but big numbers do look good on the data sheet
> and in the reviews.

You've hit the nail on the head: Big numbers look good on the data
sheet and reviews (and, of course, the advertisements). So "I'm buying
THIS tire because it weighs 30 grams less and that's all that matters!"
jibes well with "I'm buying THIS light because it has 100 more lumens
and that's all that matters!"

BTW, we're seeing the same lumen wars in car headlights. IIHS just
spent a lot of money to say lots of cars' headlights aren't bright
enough. So I'm sure I can look forward (so to speak!) to more and more
blinding headlights coming toward me on country roads.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

For a lot of us who have different bicycles they use for different purposes, having a dynamo and light on each one would be bloody expensive.

Like I said upthread, I bought a couple of extra battery packs from a radio control hobby shop and swapped the connectors to fit my unit. Now even in the dead of winter in sub-zero F temperatures I can ride all nugh long if I need or want to. For various reasons, for myself and many others dynamo lights just don't cut it.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/29/2016 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>
>
> Battery lights are clearly better in terms of light output. Dyno lights are simultaneously more and less convenient. More convenient because there is no charging, less convenient because you can't swap them quickly from one bike to another, and if you damage the wheel, you're out of a light. Not having to charge is a significant benefit.

Regarding swapping lights and dynamos: I don't do it. Each bike (well,
except one rarely-used one) has its own headlight and dynamo. Similarly,
I never switched headlights from one car to another.

The two bikes used most often at night have hub dynos; the others have
either roller or bottle dynos. So if I did have to switch wheels, it's
not a huge problem.

>
> My Luxos B, a well regarded dyno light, is basically useless in the rain. It is fine on dry pavement in a city environment.

I remain surprised that the Luxos doesn't work for you. I'm aware that
on wet city roads, even a car's headlight beams are sometimes not
obvious, since the light reflects off the flat, wet road and away from
the driver. But IME road irregularities still show up. And certainly,
there are wet countries with lots of cycling where dyno lights are the norm.

But admittedly, you do _much_ more night riding in the rain than I do.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2016-11-28 17:18, Phil Lee wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Mon, 28 Nov 2016

> 07:56:20 -0800 the perfect time to write:
>
>> On 2016-11-27 10:39, jbeattie wrote:

>>> On Sunday, November 27, 2016 at 10:03:29 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2016-11-27 09:52, sms wrote:
>>>>> The spousal unit insists on a better light for her commutes.
>>>>> Three requirements: "all-in-one" (no separate battery pouch),
>>>>> rechargeable, and brighter than the current 1000 lumen light (4C)
>>>>> that she's using now.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought that this would be easy, but there's very little out
>>>>> there with the battery not in a separate location.
>>>>>
>>>>> I found two possibilities:
>>>>>
>>>>> ITUO Wiz20. It uses two 18650 cells. $100.
>>>>> <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DNWCUAO>
>>>>>
>>>>> Lezyne Deca Drive 1500XXL
>>>>> <http://www.masherz.com/products/lezyne/decadrive1500xxlheadlight.htm>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> $112 (25% off code).
>>>>>
>>>>> Ordered her the latter. It actually would have been $11 less to
>>>>> order it shipped from the UK, but I decided that it's better to
>>>>> give the money to a U.S. bicycle shop, even if it isn't local.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind of disappointed that Lezyne moved to a non-swappable battery
>>>>> with their latest generation.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't want to spoil the fun here but whether your wife will be
>>>> happy with it depends on how long she rides with lights. I ride
>>>> with the lights on all the time on my road bike and found that at
>>>> the full 1000 lumens a battery with four 18650 cells lasts around
>>>> 2-2.5h. Since my rides are more like 4-5h I am going to swap the
>>>> MTB battery with the road bike one which will give me eight 18650
>>>> cells (which turned out to be overkill on the MTB). Got to make new
>>>> enclosures first though since I don't like things flopping about on
>>>> the frame.

>>>
>>> You need 1000 lumens during the day?
>>
>>
>> On roads, yes.
>>
>>

>>> ... Why don't you just use a little
>>> flasher or 250 lumen light or no light since you don't ride much
>>> around traffic anyway.
>>
>>
>> I had that but found that flashing irritates some people. It definitely
>> irritates horses and I often meet horseback riders on my routes.
>>
>>
>>> ... I imagine that if you are doing 4-5 hours on
>>> your road bike, a lot of that is out in boonies away from traffic.
>>
>>
>> Not always, depends on whether it is an errand dirt bikers. They don't
>> even have head lights on their machines and come at high speed. Since I
>> have 1000 lumens they see me instead of the other way around. I've had
>> several occasions where they were already stopped when I arrived. Still,
>> I think I can live with a battery that offers 30Wh of useful charge on
>> the MTB.
>>
>> My road bike has to suffer bush roads at times even though it isn't a
>> cyclocross bike (but has a high-quality steel frame).
>>
>>
>>> ... I
>>> did a couple hours this morning with a little flasher that I ran now
>>> and then when I was in a high traffic areas, and it was raining or
>>> near raining.
>>>
>>
>> They work, I've had one until recently.
>
> If your aim is to increase your own visibility to others, you just
> can't beat a brightly coloured shirt or jacket, ideally in some colour
> which doesn't occur naturally in the background of wherever you are
> riding. Avoid patterns, as they break up your outline (the first
> lesson of camouflage).


My experience is different. Nothing beats a really bright light and it's
not expensive. Actually much less so than loud-colored clothes.


> Most of the year, bright yellow works well here, but not when the
> oilseed rape is flowering, as there are lots of fields of that around
> here. When that was out, I always changed to red. I never found
> anywhere selling electric blue, but it should be effective just about
> anywhere and anytime, as it doesn't occur in nature that I know of.
> Fluorescent yellow, green, orange and pink all seem to be reasonably
> widely available.
> After dark, switch to reflectives, as fluorescents almost vanish in
> the absence of UV.


So you carry two jackets and switch when it gets dark?


> Reflectives are almost useless in daylight though, and although they
> can be woven into fabric - I've seen a very expensive pinstripe suit
> made with retro-reflective pinstripes, which just look grey in
> daylight (ideal for the city gent commuting by bike!) - I've yet to
> see a similar fabric with retro-reflective pinstripes in a fluorescent
> bright fabric.
> A gap in the market for your undoubted skills!
>

Except I am busy enough with electronics design as it is.

My personal issue with clothing is that I get a rash from any
non-natural fiber. So that means cotton. Also, I can't wear more than a
T-shirt even in winter or profuse sweating sets in. I did buy several
T-shirts with loud colors at a bike supplier. However, we very soon
found out that they must be hand-washed seperately of they will stain
all other clothing in a load. No matter how often they had been washed.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 12:25:41 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped

> BTW, we're seeing the same lumen wars in car headlights. IIHS just
> spent a lot of money to say lots of cars' headlights aren't bright
> enough. So I'm sure I can look forward (so to speak!) to more and more
> blinding headlights coming toward me on country roads.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Which is precisely why I bought a good pair of polarized dark lens flip-up sunglasses for my eyeglasses. if I'm going along and meet a vehicle with overly bright headlights oran idiot who doesn't switch from their high beams i just flip down the lenses and I can still see the road ahead of me. Before that i sometimes had to stop because I was so blinded by the bright headlights i could no longer see ahead of me. This is on country roads but even in town those newer blue halogen headlights can be too bright also and those dark flip-up lenses can be very handy then too.

Cheers

[Joerg]

On 2016-11-28 17:11, sms wrote:

> On 11/28/2016 3:23 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> IMO the best is what (as usual ...) the motor vehicle industry offers

>> since, oh, 100 years or so. Lights plus central battery. This is what I
>> have on both bicycles. What is still missing is a generator or dynamo
>> but the packs are plenty large to last even long rides in the dark. I
>> might add that to my road bike next time the front rim is up.
>

> The issue with a bicycle, that you don't have with a car, is that you
> have to remove things like expensive lights when locking a bicycle where
> you can't watch it.


That is because the bicycle industry simply does not get it. Every
decent street-legal motorcycle has lights that cannot easily be removed
and the battery is also tucked away. This would be easy to achieve with
a bicyle as well.


> ... I would have a hard time convincing the spousal unit
> to start removing battery packs AND the light. Her current light is a 4C
> 1000 lumen light that's big, but it snaps out of the very sturdy holder
> that I constructed.
>

I found that those eventually "unsnap" themselves on rough terrain. Lost
two lights that way. One I could not find back and the other got smashed
when it hit the crumpled pavement of the old Lincoln Highway or what's
left of it.


> Similarly, convincing her to start removing batteries to charge them
> externally is not going to be a likely scenario--but plugging a
> Micro-USB cable in is going to be easy since she's charging her phones
> at work (her employer provides an iPhone for work use only, and she has
> to carry a second phone for anything personal).
>

My system is simple. The charger is located at the garage wall where the
bicycles get parked. So when I get home I simply plug in just like
people with electric cars do.


> I was thinking of a 1300 lumen 26650 light with an internal charger
> <http://www.mankerlight.com/bundle-manker-u21-5000mah-26650-rechargeable-battery/>
> with a 5000mAH 26650 battery for $78.95.
>

Quite pricey but if it makes her happy it's good.

[...]

[Joerg]

On 2016-11-28 20:35, James wrote:
> On 29/11/16 10:23, Joerg wrote:
>
>>
>> IMO the best is what (as usual ...) the motor vehicle industry
>> offers since, oh, 100 years or so. Lights plus central battery. This
>> is what I have on both bicycles. What is still missing is a generator
>> or dynamo but the packs are plenty large to last even long rides in
>> the dark. I might add that to my road bike next time the front rim is
>> up.
>
> OTOH my bicycle with the hub dynamo and headlight with supercap stand
> light does what lights on a car do.

The ones I saw are rather dim and the supercap provides juice for ony a
few minutes.


> ... I can turn them on with the flick

> of a switch at anytime I'm moving, and they can even turn themselves on
> based on the ambient light levels - which is more advanced than most
> cars!

Haven't driven a modern car lately?

> I guess if you want more light while you're riding up a 30% rough
> track you could mess about with extra batteries, but for 99.99% of
> people, that isn't a consideration.
>

Way more than 0.01% of riders live in mountainous terrain like I do.
Crawling up a long steep hil is normal for them and they want full
brightness from their lights on that hill. Because cars use that same road.

[Joerg]

On 2016-11-28 20:59, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:23:56 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> IMO the best is what (as usual ...) the motor vehicle industry offers
>> since, oh, 100 years or so. Lights plus central battery.
>
> Amazing. We agree on something.
>
> I've been suggesting that once the bicycle has a built in battery
> system, with integrated wiring and a proper controller, all manner of
> electronic things can be attached.

My first bike had that in the 70's. A home-made electric system, of
course, as usual. First lead-acid, then Ni-Cd batteries. Now Li-Ion.


> ... It's not just the front and rear

> lights that need power. There's also the smartphone, radio, GPS,
> anti-theft device, camera, transponder, rail gun, death ray, etc, that
> need power. It's that first step that's the problem.
>

Exactamente. Why is it that on a bicycle you can neither read speed nor
time nor odometer at night unless you literally hold a flashlight onto
the "cycle computer"?

I am tempted to build a USB outlet for my road bike to power my MP3
player and speaker amp. Then I can also offer people a free charge,
"Hey, we'll ride together for a while and you can plug your phone into
here".

[sms]

On 11/29/2016 10:01 AM, Joerg wrote:

> I am tempted to build a USB outlet for my road bike to power my MP3
> player and speaker amp. Then I can also offer people a free charge,
> "Hey, we'll ride together for a while and you can plug your phone into
> here".

Aren't you married? Stop designing things to pick up helpless women with
discharged smart phones. It's immoral.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/29/2016 12:54 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>
> Way more than 0.01% of riders live in mountainous terrain like I do.
> Crawling up a long steep hil is normal for them and they want full
> brightness from their lights on that hill. Because cars use that same road.

I have a question on details. If you're "crawling up a steep hill" (at
what, 6 mph?) and cars are using that road, why do you need a
super-bright headlight? The oncoming cars - the ones that see your
headlight - are in a different lane, unless you're a wrong-way rider.

And _any_ headlight bright enough to show you the road surface will be
very visible to an oncoming motorist. Even back in the days of halogen
headlight bulbs, I noted many instances where cars up ahead would wait
for 20 seconds or more (until I passed) before crossing my path to turn
or pull out. I recall driving and seeing a bike commuting friend from a
couple blocks away, when he was using a Cateye halogen headlight powered
by two C cells.

In my experience, any legally-lit cyclist is adequately visible at
night. Kilo-lumens are not necessary.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/29/2016 1:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Why is it that on a bicycle you can neither read speed nor
> time nor odometer at night unless you literally hold a flashlight onto
> the "cycle computer"?

Some of my cyclometers have buttons that turn on an internal light.
Cateye Micro, for example.

Not that I use that feature much. Speed is just a curiosity, most of
the time. Distance is something I usually check at ride's end, at home.
I have a wrist watch for time.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 19:22:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>The problems with many dynamo hubs and lights is that #1
>they're not easily transferable amongst bicycles one owns
>and #2 they are often far too dim at low speeds to be useful.

Has anyone contrived a hybrid bicycle light that will solve both of
these alleged problems? At low speeds, the light would run on the
battery power. At cruising speeds, the dynamo would run the light. If
there is any surplus power available, the dynamo would recharge the
battery. I'm late for lunch, so I didn't have time to do any Googling
for such a device. If it exists, it solves both problems.

>my battery light works very well for me and it has for 9 years now.

Hmmm... I see that as problem #3. Products which last that long are
bad for business. You should be buying a Made in China light, with a
shorter expected lifetime, which self destructs just after the
warranty period expires, and requires regular replacement. As a
bonus, it requires zero maintenance mostly because it will destroy
itself if opened. I'm fairly sure that some country will eventually
make it illegal to produce a product that lasts that long as an
economic stimulus measure.

[sms]

On 11/28/2016 9:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Some smartphones (Apple) have the same problem. To solve the problem,
> an external battery pack, with a USB output, that will charge the
> phone was invented.
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=usb+battery+pack&tbm=isch>
> If the bicycle light accepts a common micro USB charge connector, an
> external pack can be used to recharge a non-removable internal
> battery. The Lezyne Deca Drive 1500XXL uses a micro USB connector, so
> it should work. However, no clue on charge time. Also, no clue on
> whether the light will charge and operate as a light at the same time.

I expect that it will not. You could only provide enough current to
operate the light at fairly low power, and even lower power if you're
trying to charge and run the light at the same time. If you're charging
at a conservative rate of 0.5C it would be 2.6A, and their own charger
is 2A. You'd need to provide about 4A of current to operate the light
and charge it at the same time.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/28/2016 1:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Unfortunately, I've had the opposite problem, where I plug
> a set of half dead batteries into the light, thinking they were
> charged. Half way into my ride, the lights go out.

I've seen similar problems with users of battery lights on the night
rides I've led.

"I would have SWORN these batteries were new (or freshly charged)!"


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:40:33 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/29/2016 12:54 PM, Joerg wrote:
> >
> >
> > Way more than 0.01% of riders live in mountainous terrain like I do.
> > Crawling up a long steep hil is normal for them and they want full
> > brightness from their lights on that hill. Because cars use that same road.
>
> I have a question on details. If you're "crawling up a steep hill" (at
> what, 6 mph?) and cars are using that road, why do you need a
> super-bright headlight? The oncoming cars - the ones that see your
> headlight - are in a different lane, unless you're a wrong-way rider.

Well, most of my riding in the hills is on narrow roads with no center lines. Cars are in "your lane," if you had one.

At night, it does not take much light to be seen by a car. I just need the light to see the road when I'm creeping along. For example, this road is part of my "mostly flat" commute home. http://tinyurl.com/z69os7b I was creeping up that Friday, light flickering and fell in a pot hole near the top. It really pissed me off. It was also raining, which reduced visibility further. On one of my longer routes through the hills, dimly lit pot holes can be a major problem.

>
> And _any_ headlight bright enough to show you the road surface will be
> very visible to an oncoming motorist. Even back in the days of halogen
> headlight bulbs, I noted many instances where cars up ahead would wait
> for 20 seconds or more (until I passed) before crossing my path to turn
> or pull out. I recall driving and seeing a bike commuting friend from a
> couple blocks away, when he was using a Cateye halogen headlight powered
> by two C cells.
>
> In my experience, any legally-lit cyclist is adequately visible at
> night. Kilo-lumens are not necessary.

No, not to be seen. To see . . . well, that depends on your night vision and conditions.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/29/2016 1:48 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 19:22:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> The problems with many dynamo hubs and lights is that #1
>> they're not easily transferable amongst bicycles one owns
>> and #2 they are often far too dim at low speeds to be useful.
>
> Has anyone contrived a hybrid bicycle light that will solve both of
> these alleged problems? At low speeds, the light would run on the
> battery power. At cruising speeds, the dynamo would run the light. If
> there is any surplus power available, the dynamo would recharge the
> battery. I'm late for lunch, so I didn't have time to do any Googling
> for such a device. If it exists, it solves both problems.

Sturmey-Archer did that with their Dynohub back in the 1950s, IIRC. It
never caught on because few people thought it was necessary.

>
>> my battery light works very well for me and it has for 9 years now.
>
> Hmmm... I see that as problem #3. Products which last that long are
> bad for business. You should be buying a Made in China light, with a
> shorter expected lifetime, which self destructs just after the
> warranty period expires, and requires regular replacement. As a
> bonus, it requires zero maintenance mostly because it will destroy
> itself if opened. I'm fairly sure that some country will eventually
> make it illegal to produce a product that lasts that long as an
> economic stimulus measure.

We hosted a touring cyclist a couple weeks ago. He arrived at night,
having ridden at least a couple hours in the dark, and had an amazing
collection of bike lights - something like six or eight of them stashed
in his luggage, and at least three on his handlebars. It seemed that
buying lights was a hobby - not that I disagree with that idea.

One of them was a Chinese light that Scharf frequently touts. The guy
claimed it was crap. He said (not that I can verify) that the
manufacturer strips out old computer batteries to power the light, so
you never know how much run time you'll get. He also said the
electronic switch was unreliable, so the only way to be sure it wasn't
drawing current was to unplug it. He tried plugging it in to show me
the beam, but had to fiddle with it for a minute to get it to turn on.

So yes, it seemed this product was indeed good for business!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2016-11-29 11:12, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:40:33 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski
> wrote:
>> On 11/29/2016 12:54 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Way more than 0.01% of riders live in mountainous terrain like I
>>> do. Crawling up a long steep hil is normal for them and they want
>>> full brightness from their lights on that hill. Because cars use
>>> that same road.
>>
>> I have a question on details. If you're "crawling up a steep hill"
>> (at what, 6 mph?) and cars are using that road, why do you need a
>> super-bright headlight? The oncoming cars - the ones that see
>> your headlight - are in a different lane, unless you're a wrong-way
>> rider.
>
> Well, most of my riding in the hills is on narrow roads with no
> center lines. Cars are in "your lane," if you had one.
>

Yup. But also on those with two narrow lanes. Example: I was mashing up
Malcom-Dixon. Big Diesel heard from behind and suddenly the obviously
impatient <expression censored> floored it. Luckily a driver coming down
the hill saw the situation and pulled off a great stunt maneuver into a
driveway, avoiding a head-on collision with me right next to it. I am
not sure he'd have seen me if I didn't have a bright headlight.

Then there are the guys on crotch-rockets who think they can have the
complete width of a curve because "nobody is coming".

> At night, it does not take much light to be seen by a car. I just
> need the light to see the road when I'm creeping along. For example,
> this road is part of my "mostly flat" commute home.
> http://tinyurl.com/z69os7b I was creeping up that Friday, light
> flickering and fell in a pot hole near the top. It really pissed me
> off. It was also raining, which reduced visibility further. On one
> of my longer routes through the hills, dimly lit pot holes can be a
> major problem.

Or when some knucklehead passes where it ain't safe and you have to
bail. Then it is kind of practical to see what you are going to bail into.

>>
>> And _any_ headlight bright enough to show you the road surface will
>> be very visible to an oncoming motorist. Even back in the days of
>> halogen headlight bulbs, I noted many instances where cars up ahead
>> would wait for 20 seconds or more (until I passed) before crossing
>> my path to turn or pull out. I recall driving and seeing a bike
>> commuting friend from a couple blocks away, when he was using a
>> Cateye halogen headlight powered by two C cells.
>>
>> In my experience, any legally-lit cyclist is adequately visible at
>> night. Kilo-lumens are not necessary.
>
> No, not to be seen. To see . . . well, that depends on your night
> vision and conditions.
>

Also to be seen.

[Joerg]

On 2016-11-29 10:38, sms wrote:
> On 11/29/2016 10:01 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> I am tempted to build a USB outlet for my road bike to power my MP3
>> player and speaker amp. Then I can also offer people a free charge,
>> "Hey, we'll ride together for a while and you can plug your phone into
>> here".
>
> Aren't you married? Stop designing things to pick up helpless women with
> discharged smart phones. It's immoral.
>

:-)

[Joerg]

On 2016-11-29 10:45, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/29/2016 1:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> Why is it that on a bicycle you can neither read speed nor
>> time nor odometer at night unless you literally hold a flashlight onto
>> the "cycle computer"?
>
> Some of my cyclometers have buttons that turn on an internal light.
> Cateye Micro, for example.
>
> Not that I use that feature much. Speed is just a curiosity, most of
> the time. Distance is something I usually check at ride's end, at home.

I often have to be at a particular location at a fixed time. Or home by
dinner time. It is important to gauge the journey progress regularly to
see whether I needs to step on it.

> I have a wrist watch for time.
>

I don't like a wrist watch during rides, especially not on trails or
when sweat is running down my arms.

[James]

On 29/11/16 20:10, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> So, how does it take you to switch your dynamo wheel and light to
> another bike and then to adjust the brakes to fit that wheel? My Cygo
> Lite Rover II (or any of the other similar Cygo Lite lights)take only
> a few seconds to take off one bike and put onto another even if one
> bike is a road bike and the other is an MTB. I bet your dynamo wheel
> can't do that. LOL VBEG
>

I have a dynamo and light set on both. Problem solved! LOL VBEG

--
JS

[James]

On 29/11/16 20:14, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

>
> My Cygo Lite Rover II (and all similar Cygo Lite lights) can give me
> maxinum brightness at any speed or even when stopped for quite some
> time such as doing a night time repair or using the light as a head
> mounted light to walk around at night in the woods.

Until the battery runs out of steam. I just start riding and there is
light again.

--
JS

[sms]

On 11/29/2016 10:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 19:22:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> The problems with many dynamo hubs and lights is that #1
>> they're not easily transferable amongst bicycles one owns
>> and #2 they are often far too dim at low speeds to be useful.
>
> Has anyone contrived a hybrid bicycle light that will solve both of
> these alleged problems? At low speeds, the light would run on the
> battery power. At cruising speeds, the dynamo would run the light. If
> there is any surplus power available, the dynamo would recharge the
> battery. I'm late for lunch, so I didn't have time to do any Googling
> for such a device. If it exists, it solves both problems.

These have been done, both commercially and homebrew.

Commercially there is no way for them to be successful, at least in the
U.S., because the cost of a dynamo wheel is so high that probably
0.0001% bicycles have one.

In terms of a homebrew system it's not difficult to do, you just need a
module that does AC to DC conversion with a buck regulator down to 4.2V
for a single cell Li-Ion or to 5V for lights with a USB charge port.
Just search for "AC/DC LM2596T power supply module." I think that I'd
swap out the bridge rectifier with four Schottky diodes.

But considering that the hub dynamos out out a nominal 3W, and the
losses in AC-DC conversion and regulation, and the fact that a good
light is running at at least 5W to provide adequate light, the
advantages of such a hybrid system are dubious for bicycles.

If anything, you'd want a separate dynamo light for redundancy. I have
several bicycles with hub dynamos, and that's what I do.

A revision of the German standards to allow 12V/6.2W dynamos should have
led to the development of higher power dynamos. But with more efficient
LEDs there's not much need for higher power lights in German cities with
good street lighting. In the U.S., even in urban areas there is often
bicycle infrastructure with no lighting at all, and these tend to be the
best routes for cyclists except for the need to provide your own
lighting. I can look out the window of my office and see one such route
(if only I had a bridge across the creek to get to it!),
<http://tinyurl.com/intelecreek>.

[sms]

On 11/29/2016 9:54 AM, Joerg wrote:

> Way more than 0.01% of riders live in mountainous terrain like I do.
> Crawling up a long steep hil is normal for them and they want full
> brightness from their lights on that hill. Because cars use that same road.

It's not just hills. In my area, one of the most popular bicycle commute
routes is the Stevens Creek Trail which runs from out near Google's main
campus through Mountain View and Sunnyvale (with good road routes on to
Cupertino and Saratoga). There is no mass transit along this corridor,
and the road alternative is extremely congested so it is an extremely
busy during commute times.

This route has a lot of very twisty portions as it winds around, over,
and under, freeways. You need good lights on these portions, and you're
likely to be going pretty slow.

[Joerg]

On 2016-11-29 12:17, sms wrote:
> On 11/29/2016 9:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> Way more than 0.01% of riders live in mountainous terrain like I do.
>> Crawling up a long steep hil is normal for them and they want full
>> brightness from their lights on that hill. Because cars use that same
>> road.
>
> It's not just hills. In my area, one of the most popular bicycle commute
> routes is the Stevens Creek Trail which runs from out near Google's main
> campus through Mountain View and Sunnyvale (with good road routes on to
> Cupertino and Saratoga). There is no mass transit along this corridor,
> and the road alternative is extremely congested so it is an extremely
> busy during commute times.
>
> This route has a lot of very twisty portions as it winds around, over,
> and under, freeways. You need good lights on these portions, and you're
> likely to be going pretty slow.
>

Same on trails out here in the Wild West. Once I didn't pay enough
attention because I know the trail to Placerville like my shirt pocket.
Barreled right into a lake that wasn't there before. I had forgotten
that it had rained a lot the week before and it had flooded.

Some folks who people out here call flatlanders might hardly understand
this but that singletrack is the only safe cycling route to Placerville.
Because of illegal dirt bikers on the trail it is prudent to ride some
sections with bright lights or risk a nasty collision. Dynamo lights
don't cut it out there. Certainly not at night where you need to really
light up the forest in order not to have to slow down to a crawl.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 3:35:17 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

> Same on trails out here in the Wild West. Once I didn't pay enough
> attention because I know the trail to Placerville like my shirt pocket.
> Barreled right into a lake that wasn't there before. I had forgotten
> that it had rained a lot the week before and it had flooded.

ASTOUNDING!

> Some folks who people out here call flatlanders might hardly understand
> this but that singletrack is the only safe cycling route to Placerville.
> Because of illegal dirt bikers on the trail it is prudent to ride some
> sections with bright lights or risk a nasty collision. Dynamo lights
> don't cut it out there. Certainly not at night where you need to really
> light up the forest in order not to have to slow down to a crawl.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Good grief man!

I ride single track here a lot in the dark and even a 250 lumens light lights up the trail enough for me to ride at a decent speed. I do NOT need to be lighting up the forest around me. That 250 lumens light is plenty bright enough for it to be seen from quite a distance away by others.

You didn't see a "lake" in front of you? Then you are either blind or extremely foolish to be riding at speeds beyond the capacity of your equipment. Gads! Even a 250 lumens light will show you standing water on a trail.

Maybe you should give up bicycling and get a dirt track capable motor bike?

Cheers

[sms]

On 11/29/2016 2:21 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

<snip>

> Good grief man!
>
> I ride single track here a lot in the dark and even a 250 lumens light lights up the trail enough for me to ride at a decent speed. I do NOT need to be lighting up the forest around me. That 250 lumens light is plenty bright enough for it to be seen from quite a distance away by others.
>
> You didn't see a "lake" in front of you? Then you are either blind or extremely foolish to be riding at speeds beyond the capacity of your equipment.

The whole idea is to have lights sufficient to not outrun them. When
I've used low-power lights I ride slower. Unfortunately, with dynamo
lights the slower you go the weaker the illumination, but on straight,
familiar roads, or on roads that have other lighting as well, they are okay.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

not in the market, I briefly wnet to Goo Shopping for lights finding a round one attached to bar with rubber bands for 29.99 producing 2000 lumens

[Frank Krygowski]

As we've frequently seen, nothing works for Joerg. Not even wrist watches.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2016-11-29 15:06, sms wrote:
> On 11/29/2016 2:21 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Good grief man!
>>
>> I ride single track here a lot in the dark and even a 250 lumens light
>> lights up the trail enough for me to ride at a decent speed. I do NOT
>> need to be lighting up the forest around me. That 250 lumens light is
>> plenty bright enough for it to be seen from quite a distance away by
>> others.
>>
>> You didn't see a "lake" in front of you? Then you are either blind or
>> extremely foolish to be riding at speeds beyond the capacity of your
>> equipment.
>

I do serious trail riding. This includes being able to see far out front
to be able to judge whether I want to bomb down a hill or not. Bombing
down with a puny light can mean recognizing too late that there's mud or
water and then no being able to slow down in time. Because of loose
rocks, decomposed granite, mud, whatever.

> The whole idea is to have lights sufficient to not outrun them.

Bingo!


> ... When

> I've used low-power lights I ride slower. Unfortunately, with dynamo
> lights the slower you go the weaker the illumination, but on straight,
> familiar roads, or on roads that have other lighting as well, they are
> okay.
>

On a rocky trail dynamo lighting is the pits.

[Joerg]

Any serious mountain biker knows that anything you loop around a body
part carries an obvious risk. This includes backpacks which I no longer
wear (replaced by panniers). I was once rather violently pulled out of
the saddle at north of 20mph but a manzanita branch. The MTB continued
riderless. Yes, it was my fault, excessive speed caused by what pilots
call get-home-itis. However, sans backpack I would not have crashed.

[James]

On 30/11/16 02:23, jbeattie wrote:

>
> I did the dyno thing as a science project and because I got a killer
> deal on a SP PD8. I use the dyno on my commuter with a small flasher
> on my bars. If someone asked me what I recommended, it would be a
> <$100 all in one -- maybe one of the offerings from L&M or
> Nightrider. Good dynos/lights are too expensive; they do not produce
> much light, and most people don't ride for hours at night and are
> accustomed to charging electronic devices like phones. I have many
> friends who are serious commuters, and they use battery lights --
> even though dyno lights are available from a number of sources in
> Portland.
>

I used to ride 2 hours a night, 3 nights a week, with others who used
battery lights exclusively. Some had uber chilumen blinders. There was
often one who had cable issues or a weak battery, and none of them aimed
the light on the road anywhere near as well as my 80 lux dynamo powered
headlight - which incidentally is 10lux more than yours.

Of course most lights are advertised as mega lumen blinders, but rarely
live up to expectations or light the road surface without blinding other
road users - which wastes at about half the lumens anyway.

--
JS

[Doug Landau]

Panniers can do it too. I hooked the strap on my right side Jandd "mountain" pannier on the left end of the front bumper of a parked car on wilshire blvd. I was going about 15 I think and that was quite painful and tacoed my front wheel

[Sir Ridesalot]

Joerg is much more likely to snag panniers than he is to snag a backpack or anything mounted in "bike packing method". Bike packing is a new (actaully very old but ressurrected) method of packing an MTB for off road riding precisely so there's little risk of snagging stuf.

Cheers

[sms]

On 11/29/2016 7:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:

> My Luxos B, a well regarded dyno light, is basically useless in the rain. It is fine on dry pavement in a city environment. My SECA 1400 is like a stadium light on full power and much, much better in the rain and on trail sections, even when it is dry. It has a short run time on full output but is probably good for four hours on low output. It has a separate and inconvenient battery that I strap to my stem. An all-in-one would be ideal, and some of them are very good in terms of output and run times.

>
> I did the dyno thing as a science project and because I got a killer deal on a SP PD8. I use the dyno on my commuter with a small flasher on my bars. If someone asked me what I recommended, it would be a <$100 all in one -- maybe one of the offerings from L&M or Nightrider. Good dynos/lights are too expensive; they do not produce much light, and most people don't ride for hours at night and are accustomed to charging electronic devices like phones. I have many friends who are serious commuters, and they use battery lights -- even though dyno lights are available from a number of sources in Portland.

That's the same conclusion I reached. Recharging your stuff daily is so
routine now that charging an all-in-one light, with a Micro USB port,
alongside your phone, tablet, laptop, whatever, is just no big deal.

I would probably not recommend the lights with separate battery packs to
most people since it's too much of a hassle and they usually use
proprietary chargers.

I would also advice people buying good lights to look at a couple of
factors that may not be obvious. The thermal solution is important so
the lights don't start reducing power due to heat issues. The outer case
is the heat sink and should be aluminum, not plastic. Above 1000 lumens
or so you want to be looking at multiple LEDs, not a single LED because
it's extremely difficult to do a proper thermal solution for anything
more than a 5W LED. I've seen lights where the LED got so hot it
unsoldered itself from the PC board.

IMVAIO those $100 Niterider lights have too small of a battery with a
short runtime at full power.

The Leyzne seemed to be the best choice to me in a "around" $100 light
with sufficient power. I've seen them at a bunch of bicycle trade shows
and they seem to have hit the sweet spot of capability and cost. They
don't go crazy with power, 1500 lumens is really sufficient. Magicshine
showed an 8000 lumen light at Interbike and it's currently available
<https://www.magicshine.us/product/mj-908-bike-light-combo/> but I don't
think anyone other than Joerg really needs such a light.

[Frank Krygowski]

It's a dangerous world, all right. At least, around Cameron Park.

For maximum safety, ride nude.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:10:35 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>Commercially there is no way for them to be successful, at least in the
>U.S., because the cost of a dynamo wheel is so high that probably
>0.0001% bicycles have one.

Fair enough. Make the dynamo an option, to be added later, if needed.
Buying the hybrid light will give you the flexibility to power it as
needed, later. If desperate, use a hand crank generator instead of
the wheel or hub dynamo.

Drivel: Hp didn't sell too many HP-IB (IEEE488) systems. Yet
everyone that bought HP test equipment wanted to know if it was HP-IB
compatible so that they could add it later if needed. Options can be
a good sales tool.

>But considering that the hub dynamos out out a nominal 3W, and the
>losses in AC-DC conversion and regulation, and the fact that a good
>light is running at at least 5W to provide adequate light, the
>advantages of such a hybrid system are dubious for bicycles.

My Planet Bike headlight runs at 1 watt. It's bright enough in the
city, but useless in the San Lorenzo Valley, where there is little or
no street/road/dirt/trail lighting.

The main advantage of a hybrid system is that it would allow extended
operation of the headlight at very slow speeds, where the dynamo does
not provide sufficient output.

>If anything, you'd want a separate dynamo light for redundancy. I have
>several bicycles with hub dynamos, and that's what I do.

There's a point where carrying spares and duplicated systems becomes a
burden. I think we're fairly close to where an LED light can be
considered reliable. If not, carry a flashlight and fake it:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/bicycle-flashlight.html>

>A revision of the German standards to allow 12V/6.2W dynamos should have
>led to the development of higher power dynamos. But with more efficient
>LEDs there's not much need for higher power lights in German cities with
>good street lighting. In the U.S., even in urban areas there is often
>bicycle infrastructure with no lighting at all, and these tend to be the
>best routes for cyclists except for the need to provide your own
>lighting. I can look out the window of my office and see one such route
>(if only I had a bridge across the creek to get to it!),
><http://tinyurl.com/intelecreek>.

How many lumens per watt do you consider efficient enough? I've done
some bench testing of various LED's. With 2 watt LED's, if I keep
them cool (i.e. submerged in water), I get about 80 lumens/watt. If I
let them get hot, they rapidly drop to about half that. 5 watt LED's
seem to be about the same. Old LED's can be as bad as 1 lumen/watt.
Cree has demonstrated 300 lumens/watt, but only under very well
controlled temperature conditions.

Ready for bicycle radar?
<http://newatlas.com/backtracker-bicycle-radar/32834/>
<https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/10/garmin-varia-radar-review.html>
No PPI scope yet, but that will probably be next. Never mind the
headlights. Just put on your VR (virtual reality) or AR (augmented
reality) goggles, and ride in the dark.

[Joerg]

Ouch!

> Joerg is much more likely to snag panniers than he is to snag a
> backpack or anything mounted in "bike packing method". Bike packing
> is a new (actaully very old but ressurrected) method of packing an
> MTB for off road riding precisely so there's little risk of snagging
> stuf.
>

Yes, and so can handlebars which is why I shortened mine soon after
purchasing the MTB. On panniers at least you have the options of either
covering the outside loops or cinching them with a sacrificial piece if
packaging rope which breaks upon a hard tug. Backpacks kind of need
sturdy straps and handles.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/30/2016 12:17 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> My Planet Bike headlight runs at 1 watt. It's bright enough in the
> city, but useless in the San Lorenzo Valley, where there is little or
> no street/road/dirt/trail lighting.
>
> The main advantage of a hybrid system is that it would allow extended
> operation of the headlight at very slow speeds, where the dynamo does
> not provide sufficient output.

Those sorts of statements make me wonder what dynamo equipment you've
tried, and what sort of riding you've done with it.

My night riding has been mostly of these types: A seven mile commute
from city center to suburbs, half of it uphill (max 10% grade, most
about 5%); short utility rides in the suburbs, some on arterials;
recreational rides (including leading bike club rides) in suburbs and on
rural roads; and leading bike club rides on a totally unlit MUP. A
modern LED headlight with good optics works very well for all of those
at any speed I ride. In fact, the darkest of those - the MUP - seems
the easiest. Night vision adapts, and there's no competing glare.

It's true that way, way, WAY back I had a dynamo powering a vacuum bulb
with lousy optics, and I recall the night it gave insufficient light
when I was pedaling on gravel in an unlit campground. (It was still
fine as a "be seen" light.) But once I switched from vacuum bulbs to
halogen bulbs in headlamps with good optics, I never thought carrying a
battery headlight was worth the trouble - let alone constructing or
paying for a hybrid system.

I understand that a dynamo with a good modern headlight might not be
sufficient under certain circumstances. Sir talks about mountain
biking; Jay talks about long, extreme grades (over 15%, I gather).
Joerg talks about frying attacking mountain lions with a death beam. But
I think riding in those conditions is rather rare for most cyclists.

Thing is, riding at night in general is also rather rare for most
cyclists, at least in America. I think that's the root cause of dynamo
lighting being so rare here. Most Americans use bikes as toys and don't
want to ride at night. Only the "techie" portion of those who use bikes
for transportation even consider fitting a dynamo. So whether they're
beneficial or not, it's enough of a market to keep Peter White
prospering, but not to get Nashbar to stock them.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, November 27, 2016 at 9:52:07 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> The spousal unit insists on a better light for her commutes. Three
> requirements: "all-in-one" (no separate battery pouch), rechargeable,
> and brighter than the current 1000 lumen light (4C) that she's using now.
>
> I thought that this would be easy, but there's very little out there
> with the battery not in a separate location.
>
> I found two possibilities:
>
> ITUO Wiz20. It uses two 18650 cells. $100.
> <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DNWCUAO>
>
> Lezyne Deca Drive 1500XXL
> <http://www.masherz.com/products/lezyne/decadrive1500xxlheadlight.htm>
> $112 (25% off code).
>
> Ordered her the latter. It actually would have been $11 less to order it
> shipped from the UK, but I decided that it's better to give the money to
> a U.S. bicycle shop, even if it isn't local.
>
> Kind of disappointed that Lezyne moved to a non-swappable battery with
> their latest generation.

>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Last night I was returning my brother from his eye appointment and all over the place were bicycle riders on the street or darting across intersections wearing dark clothing and with no lights of any kind. Of ALL of the riders there was one with descent lights and the difference was amazing.

I normally drive very carefully but I had to slow down 30% below the speed limit in order to be careful enough not to hit one of these young fools. And even that was FAR too fast if one of them had decided to dart across the lanes.

I cannot recommend lights too highly. For the rear you need a blinky that is powerful. In the front you need a light to show the road and another that is a white blinker to warn traffic.

Imagine a frosty windshield, dark clothing and street lights that are causing halos because of mist in the air.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 11:34:40 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped

> Thing is, riding at night in general is also rather rare for most
> cyclists, at least in America. I think that's the root cause of dynamo
> lighting being so rare here. Most Americans use bikes as toys and don't
> want to ride at night. Only the "techie" portion of those who use bikes
> for transportation even consider fitting a dynamo. So whether they're
> beneficial or not, it's enough of a market to keep Peter White
> prospering, but not to get Nashbar to stock them.
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Up here in Ontario, Canada if one did not want to ride in the dark then one wouldn't be doing much riding at all from about mid-Octobr to sometime in February or march because it`d be dark in the early morning and dark by 5:00 PM which menas people wouldn`t be commuting by bicycle.

Even when not riding trails there are a number of times when I want a long lasting bright light. I must say thatthe dynamo and light I tried at the bike shop one dark evening was quality unit but I forget the name of it. I was really surprise at how dim it was a slow speeds and hown much it flickered annoyingly too.

I`m one of those who doesn`t want to spend hundreds of dollars experimenting with dynamos and lights to find one that works for me. I`d far rather by a decent exteranl battery light and spare battery (or two) that I can use anytime on any of my bikes. It`s also very nice that i can use that light off the bike too for other uses.

YMMV

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/30/2016 11:35 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I cannot recommend lights too highly. For the rear you need a blinky that is powerful. In the front you need a light to show the road and another that is a white blinker to warn traffic.

In my experience, any headlight bright enough to show the road is more
than adequate to "warn traffic" - i.e. as a "be seen" headlight. My
club members who have participated in my Night Lighting Workshops have
agreed. (Those workshops involved having members ride each others'
bikes while the owners observed, sometimes from cars. And they were back
in the days of halogen bulbs.)

And as long as we're discussing being seen, let's not forget reflectors
and reflective tape. Those things weigh close to zero, require no
maintenance other than occasionally wiping them clean, and can be as
bright as most lights on the market. Attaching them to moving surfaces
(e.g. pedals or crank arms) makes them even more conspicuous and
recognizable. You can test this out by having a friend ride your bike
at night as you observe.

Note, that's not saying reflectors eliminate the need for lights. But
in my many decades of paying attention to these issues, any legally lit
cyclist is adequately visible at night. Any cyclist whose equipment is
even better (that is, actually lights the road properly) is _easily_
visible at night.

Unfortunately, as with all things related to bicycling, there's a lot of
"Danger! Danger!" mentality - which is publicly stated as "Well, I just
want to be safe." So yes, I do know a guy who rides with four blinky
taillights in the daytime! :-/ He doesn't seem to notice that none
of the rest of his friends have been run over from behind.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

And by contrast, I'll admit I've enjoyed experimenting with dynamos.
Besides at least four different makes on different bikes, I've got a
drawer full of old dynamos, many of them salvaged or given to me. I've
wired some into fairly complicated circuits (multiple headlamps,
switched taillights, etc.) I've taken them apart, bench tested them,
written a technical article for a bike geek publication, etc. I'm
charmed by the idea of unlimited energy conversion. And for me, the
practicality can't be beat.

As you say, YMMV.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[James]

On 30/11/16 05:40, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> On 11/29/2016 12:54 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>
>> Way more than 0.01% of riders live in mountainous terrain like I do.
>> Crawling up a long steep hil is normal for them and they want full
>> brightness from their lights on that hill. Because cars use that same
>> road.
>

> I have a question on details. If you're "crawling up a steep hill" (at
> what, 6 mph?) and cars are using that road, why do you need a
> super-bright headlight? The oncoming cars - the ones that see your
> headlight - are in a different lane, unless you're a wrong-way rider.
>
> And _any_ headlight bright enough to show you the road surface will be
> very visible to an oncoming motorist. Even back in the days of halogen
> headlight bulbs, I noted many instances where cars up ahead would wait
> for 20 seconds or more (until I passed) before crossing my path to turn
> or pull out. I recall driving and seeing a bike commuting friend from a
> couple blocks away, when he was using a Cateye halogen headlight powered
> by two C cells.
>
> In my experience, any legally-lit cyclist is adequately visible at
> night. Kilo-lumens are not necessary.
>

The hill between town and home for me is 2km long with sections at 10%.
After a long hard ride I just manage about 10km/h up the steep bits. At
night I can still see the road with my dynamo headlight just fine.
Where I'd like something different is on the descent, because the
bicycle light dips away from the corner I'm turning into. But I think
that can be a problem on most 2 wheelers.

For Joerg OTOH, his M varies considerably from the norm.

--
JS

[sms]

On 11/30/2016 8:35 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

<snip>

> Last night I was returning my brother from his eye appointment and all over the place were bicycle riders on the street or darting across intersections wearing dark clothing and with no lights of any kind. Of ALL of the riders there was one with descent lights and the difference was amazing.
>
> I normally drive very carefully but I had to slow down 30% below the speed limit in order to be careful enough not to hit one of these young fools. And even that was FAR too fast if one of them had decided to dart across the lanes.
>
> I cannot recommend lights too highly. For the rear you need a blinky that is powerful. In the front you need a light to show the road and another that is a white blinker to warn traffic.
>
> Imagine a frosty windshield, dark clothing and street lights that are causing halos because of mist in the air.

I am really hoping to do something in my city regarding this issue once
I start on the city council next week.

It's not that the people that have no lights can't afford them, they are
just apparently too clueless to understand that they are necessary. This
applies especially to kids riding to school in the morning during
daylight savings time, when it's still dark, and riding home from
after-school activities in the dark.

I want to try to do some kind of free light distribution. It'll have to
be USB rechargeable lights since riders are unlikely to keep up with
disposable batteries. We'll also need to probably give out some Micro
USB chargers or at least USB to Micro-USB cables given the fact that so
many people are Apple only.

Too bad Fry's is sold out of the 10¢ USB chargers:
<http://frys.com/product/6517763?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG>

I don't think we'd do two front lights though it is true that it would
be best to have one powerful front light to see the road, and one
flashing front light to warn traffic.

[sms]

On 11/29/2016 9:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:10:35 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Commercially there is no way for them to be successful, at least in the
>> U.S., because the cost of a dynamo wheel is so high that probably
>> 0.0001% bicycles have one.
>
> Fair enough. Make the dynamo an option, to be added later, if needed.
> Buying the hybrid light will give you the flexibility to power it as
> needed, later. If desperate, use a hand crank generator instead of
> the wheel or hub dynamo.
>
> Drivel: Hp didn't sell too many HP-IB (IEEE488) systems. Yet
> everyone that bought HP test equipment wanted to know if it was HP-IB
> compatible so that they could add it later if needed. Options can be
> a good sales tool.

Oy, we even did an IEEE 488 interface for a daisy wheel printer I worked
on. I doubt if we sold more than a couple of the necessary cables.

> My Planet Bike headlight runs at 1 watt. It's bright enough in the
> city, but useless in the San Lorenzo Valley, where there is little or
> no street/road/dirt/trail lighting.

I think that one reason people in the U.S. want higher power lighteing
is the amount of riding done in areas with no street lighting.

>
> How many lumens per watt do you consider efficient enough? I've done
> some bench testing of various LED's.

Supposedly, there are 300 lumens per watt LEDs now. But that's
theoretical and probably requires active cooling.

[Frank Krygowski]

I agree, it's a problem on most 2 wheelers, and it can be a problem even
with 4 wheelers. Last night in my car, turning left from a highway into
a small street, I had great trouble seeing into the turn. It was partly
because a car waiting at a stop sign there produced significant glare
and required a sharper-than-normal turn, but also because my headlights
didn't shine around the bend. (The Tucker car of the 1930s had a
pivoting headlight, but it didn't catch on.)

My motorcycle has sometimes had its headlight mounted on the fork,
sometime (now) on a frame mounted fairing. In either case, the
headlight doesn't point significantly into a tight turn. Even when fork
mounted, the motion wasn't sufficient. Tight turns just require slow
speeds.

A potential solution, now that we're in the era of extra lumens, would
be a beam design that sprays some extra light upward and to the sides,
to light the way into turns and perhaps provide extra notice to
motorists at side streets. The upward component is because bikes lean
as they turn. If the beam had just extra width, that wide section would
point too close to the ground during a turn.

On the one bike I use most at night, I've fabricated a pivoting mount
for the headlight, controlled from the handlebar. I can steer the lamp
into a tight turn, and I like the effect. If you try something like
that, the pivot axis should not be vertical; it should have a forward
inclination so it compensates for the lean angle.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[James]

On 30/11/16 04:54, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-11-28 20:35, James wrote:
>> On 29/11/16 10:23, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> IMO the best is what (as usual ...) the motor vehicle industry
>>> offers since, oh, 100 years or so. Lights plus central battery. This
>>> is what I have on both bicycles. What is still missing is a generator
>>> or dynamo but the packs are plenty large to last even long rides in
>>> the dark. I might add that to my road bike next time the front rim is
>>> up.
>>
>> OTOH my bicycle with the hub dynamo and headlight with supercap stand
>> light does what lights on a car do.
>
>
> The ones I saw are rather dim and the supercap provides juice for ony a
> few minutes.
>
>

Rather dim describes something other than my headlight. I've been
mistaken for a motorcycle more than once.

>> ... I can turn them on with the flick
>> of a switch at anytime I'm moving, and they can even turn themselves on
>> based on the ambient light levels - which is more advanced than most
>> cars!
>
>
> Haven't driven a modern car lately?
>
>

What year is "modern"? Ours is a 2008 model and the average age of
registered motor vehicles in Australia is 10 years. I'd say "most" are
not "modern", and hence my bicycle lights are more advanced than "most"
cars - as I said.

>> I guess if you want more light while you're riding up a 30% rough
>> track you could mess about with extra batteries, but for 99.99% of
>> people, that isn't a consideration.

>>
>
> Way more than 0.01% of riders live in mountainous terrain like I do.
> Crawling up a long steep hil is normal for them and they want full
> brightness from their lights on that hill. Because cars use that same road.
>

Bullshit.

--
JS

[Joerg]

Citroen had that. IIRC there was also a US luxury sedan series
(Cadillac?) where a side-looking light turned on when you have the turn
signal set. Which I found to be a really good idea because that also
illuminates cyclists witing next to the car.

> My motorcycle has sometimes had its headlight mounted on the fork,
> sometime (now) on a frame mounted fairing. In either case, the
> headlight doesn't point significantly into a tight turn. Even when fork
> mounted, the motion wasn't sufficient. Tight turns just require slow
> speeds.
>
> A potential solution, now that we're in the era of extra lumens, would
> be a beam design that sprays some extra light upward and to the sides,
> to light the way into turns and perhaps provide extra notice to
> motorists at side streets.

That's exactly what I have on both bikes. Retrofit lenses that
horizontally widen the beam. This allows me to head into curves at a
good clip. The main reason though was that the diffuser lenses prevent
blinding motorists with those 1000 lumen headlights.


> ... The upward component is because bikes lean

> as they turn. If the beam had just extra width, that wide section would
> point too close to the ground during a turn.
>
> On the one bike I use most at night, I've fabricated a pivoting mount
> for the headlight, controlled from the handlebar. I can steer the lamp
> into a tight turn, and I like the effect. If you try something like
> that, the pivot axis should not be vertical; it should have a forward
> inclination so it compensates for the lean angle.
>

I haven't gone that far and found that a light without the dreaded sharp
cut-off of German StVZO lights works well if it has a diffuser lens.