Monthly cycling deaths, Sacramento :-(

[Joerg]

Some people here don't believe it or don't want to believe it but
cycling death in our area (Sacramento, CA) is unfortunately an almost
monthly occurrence by now:

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article99538017.html

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

here's a graph of bicycling students in your area


http://i.imgur.com/1Jddj7s.png

[Jeff Liebermann]

Wrong. That's the distribution of disabilities among a pre-selected
group of 161 students with at least one disability. It does not
represent the distribution among all students (assuming you claim that
all students, including those with disabilities, ride bicycles). It
may also be a chart of those with multiple disabilities, as suggested
by the "Multiple" title. You can tell if you find the source of the
pie chart. Running Google's reverse image search:
<https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/1325808?hl=en>
No luck. Lots of similar images created by Excel, but no exact match.
Where did you find the pie chart?




--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/2/2016 6:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Some people here don't believe it or don't want to believe it but
> cycling death in our area (Sacramento, CA) is unfortunately an almost
> monthly occurrence by now:
>
> http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article99538017.html

A) You can't grasp the idea of posting data, as opposed to posting
anecdotes or incidents. Where are the actual counts, or averages over a
reasonable period of time?

B) You've repeatedly talked about how dangerous it is "around here" or
"in this area" without defining the limits of your "here" or "area." It
seems in reality, "your area" is anything mentioned in the newspapers
you read, no matter how far away.

C) And this is yet another incident of a cyclist hit in a straight-ahead
bike lane that's to the right of a motor vehicle turning right. The
problem with that geometry should be blatantly obvious; yet bike lane
fanatics still demand it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Reverse ... Goo sez using RS allows Goo EXcess access to your HD.

Goo personnel are linked to SpaceX sabotage undermining disseminaton of VOA health information across Africa.

Pie chart is from Better Mental Bicycle Services Journal 245 p. 421

I tried searching Amber Herd Nude crotch oral sex but that was fruitless as the search only produced more Amber Herd Nude crotch oral sex. Possible oral sex thru the search off.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

The cyclist may look back with a helmet mirror or incrobke, stop off road n look or use the curb ....take the lane where is a killer.

TTL grants perception n intelligence to motorists ... fantasy.

[AMuzi]

On 9/2/2016 8:58 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2016 17:41:57 -0700 (PDT), DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
> <avag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> here's a graph of bicycling students in your area
>> http://i.imgur.com/1Jddj7s.png
>
> Wrong. That's the distribution of disabilities among a pre-selected
> group of 161 students with at least one disability. It does not
> represent the distribution among all students (assuming you claim that
> all students, including those with disabilities, ride bicycles). It
> may also be a chart of those with multiple disabilities, as suggested
> by the "Multiple" title. You can tell if you find the source of the
> pie chart. Running Google's reverse image search:
> <https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/1325808?hl=en>
> No luck. Lots of similar images created by Excel, but no exact match.
> Where did you find the pie chart?
>
>
>
>

Huh I thought it was the distribution of registered voters
in Gene's Florida Congressional district.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

Please point out the bike lane.

[Frank Krygowski]

Google Maps shows one in the satellite view.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Wrong.

[Frank Krygowski]

https://goo.gl/maps/izaabewySy92


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Is that not a bike lane? http://tinyurl.com/j96dpu5

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

That is not a proper bike lane and it is rather obvious why it isn't.
Why do you think the labeling as bike lane was erased while the striping
was renewed?

This is one of the roads I try to avoid whenever possible.

[Frank Krygowski]

So you're hiding behind shifting standards. We have advocates demanding
deficient, even insane designs, because "any bike facility is a good
bike facility." Then when the design injures or kills a cyclist (as in
this case) we have people claiming "well, the concept is good, they just
messed up when they built it."

The latest example I heard about: Lakewood, a western suburb of
Cleveland OH, had in their bike plan a statement that many roads have
insufficient room for bike lanes, so they would instead use sharrows.
Then a noisy lobbying group (Bike Cleveland, IIRC) said sharrows are
insufficient, and demanded bike lanes even if they were in the door zone.

The city caved in to the noise. Here's the result:
http://tinyurl.com/jslqskt
A bike lane _officially labeled_ as hazardous. Except that those who
would be most lured into using it are those who have no idea what "door
zone" is supposed to mean.

I wonder if it's possible for the first injured party to win a lawsuit
against the DZBL advocates?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 03 Sep 2016 08:14:50 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>>> Please point out the bike lane.
>>
>> Google Maps shows one in the satellite view.
>
>Wrong.

Very strange.
<https://goo.gl/maps/aWxuDY1xZg42>
If I turn on the Bicycling feature of Google maps, it marks W. Capital
Ave as a bicycling "trail". Further east, it becomes a "bicycle
friendly road". It may not be up to everyone's standards for a
bicycle lane, but it does seem to be the recommended route for
bicyclists.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Huh I thought it was the distribution of registered voters
in Gene's Florida Congressional district.

anything is impossible. follow the spin on Zika. like Dinky but off course extr

y serious. article showed this morning: SHOULD WE VISIT FLORIDA ? the state went to No. 3 in population last Feb. I'm not sure if they're al here at the same time...I'm not so....

when the Wynwood news broke I gave the landlady a can of green Deet ...

she said....well your leaving.....stoic....she owns the storage area filled with RV n boats. next to Estero Bay. A swamp filled with gators n turtles. once....

ok here's the typical:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trey_Radel

goo.gl/DaEN5y

? serious perception disablility

whaddya think of bikelawtech ?

ahhhh they're playing opera tonight !

[Andre Jute]

Good luck suing Google for leading you to the abattoir. Google, and its entire Board of Directors, are outright thieves who tried to steal the copyright of every book in the world, until stopped in their tracks by a judge with his brains in gear. They're scum.

Andre Jute
Google and its Board aren't thieves and scum because I say so, but because they attempted a massive theft

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

my deal is psionics.

world class wizard Yoda approved with a basic electronics background.

Goo is world class electronics, subgrade wizardy.

so.....I cannot hear any audio without harassment. EG, utube fix the vacuum cleaner ? no way....all visuals.

There was a period where if I would move toward predicting online in Groups, a switchman in Goo would shut off my subscription until the event passed.

Yesterday I hadda throw Dell over the side caws of harassment from India or M anila: no parts.

[jbeattie]

Why is it not a "proper" bike lane -- because of marking? And if it were a "proper bike lane" how would that have prevented decedent's death? He got right hooked. That happens with bike lanes.

That road looks nicer than 80% of the roads I ride on. I don't recall ever riding on it, but driving the Google car, it doesn't look bad.

-- Jay Beattie.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Jay, 4 prole died in this lane in the last 28 months including a pregnant mother of 3.

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 09-03-2016 16:59, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2016 08:14:50 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>> Please point out the bike lane.
>>>
>>> Google Maps shows one in the satellite view.
>>
>> Wrong.
>
> Very strange.
> <https://goo.gl/maps/aWxuDY1xZg42>
> If I turn on the Bicycling feature of Google maps, it marks W. Capital
> Ave as a bicycling "trail". Further east, it becomes a "bicycle
> friendly road". It may not be up to everyone's standards for a
> bicycle lane, but it does seem to be the recommended route for
> bicyclists.

Google explicitly states that their bicycling is "beta"
And their recommended routes are sometimes pretty stupid.
Once I was ON the bike trail, and they recommended I go half a kilometer
in the wrong direction to get on the regular street. I knew the bike
trail would get me where I wanted to go; I was just hoping Google would
tell me the distance.

--
Wes Groleau

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Goo offers a suggestion that you go over and look/ride ....the system offers awareness.

[AMuzi]

Uh, that weekend feature in the paper about Florida was
written by Dave Barry ( haven't read it yet).

[Joerg]

There is a wide concrete gutter and too little space. Latest after the
first re-paving you'll have an inch or so step towards the lane. Guess
what happens when you hit that at a shallow angle. Spills you right into
the lane. If they had kept that designated a bike lane it would be a
lawsuit waiting to happen.


> ... And if it

> were a "proper bike lane" how would that have prevented decedent's
> death? He got right hooked. That happens with bike lanes.
>

Yes, it can happen with bike lanes. Which is why I prefer segregated
facilities. What bike lanes can prevent is the accident that killed a
road biker right after we moved here. Two lanes both directions but no
bike lane or shoulder, someone slowed to turn left, a soused driver was
too close, instinctively veered into the right lane to pass on the right
... SMASH. Now there is a bike lane (finally!). Else I would use my car
on that road like I did for over 15 years. Sometimes I wonder why it
always takes a death until city planners wake up.

> That road looks nicer than 80% of the roads I ride on. I don't recall
> ever riding on it, but driving the Google car, it doesn't look bad.
>

In dense traffic there are the impatient rush hour drivers, some of
which still under the influence of some pill that helped them sleep at
night, others eyeing their smart phones. They see a chance to shave
three seconds off their commute by passing on the right, step on it,
veer right and ... "Oh no!"

[Joerg]

On 2016-09-03 14:59, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2016 08:14:50 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>> Please point out the bike lane.
>>>
>>> Google Maps shows one in the satellite view.
>>
>> Wrong.
>
> Very strange.
> <https://goo.gl/maps/aWxuDY1xZg42>
> If I turn on the Bicycling feature of Google maps, it marks W. Capital
> Ave as a bicycling "trail". Further east, it becomes a "bicycle
> friendly road". It may not be up to everyone's standards for a
> bicycle lane, but it does seem to be the recommended route for
> bicyclists.
>

That means nothing. I have long since abandoned Google for finding
cycleable routes. It also goes the other way. For example, the route to
Placerville I'll take later this week is very nice and completely
segragated to the point where most of the time you can't even hear cars.
Yet it's not even on their map.

Same for the route I'll be on later today. According to Google two major
stretches I use at least once a week do not exist.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 5:41:58 PM UTC-7, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> here's a graph of bicycling students in your area
>
>
> http://i.imgur.com/1Jddj7s.png

I am really looking forward to meeting you some day. We can have an up close and personal discussion on who owns bicycle trails.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-californa-leads-national-bicycle-deaths-20141027-story.html

In San Francisco they are presently investigating a corner design that forces drivers to make much sharper right turns that slows them up a great deal. And there is a specific bike right turn area inside of the corner.

I can't find the design now but I'll keep an eye on it. In San Francisco a large number of the bicyclist deaths are from cyclist proceeding forward and getting struck either by high speed traffic coming from behind and attempting to make a right turn or by traffic from the right running red lights and making high speed right turns through the lights.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Frank - these are fairly common in California - they are not bike lanes. They mark the safe edge of the road for drivers.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Google maps is leading traffic over roads not designed for heavy traffic and this is ruining the few good roads left in California.

I want to see Google made to pay up for damages to roads like Redwood Rd. and Pinehurst and Valley road in Oakland/Moraga area because they route HEAVY traffic on this barely two lane road when highway 24 is having traffic jams.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I made a wrong turn and instead of driving out Highland I went over Morgan Territory road. This goes from barely a two lane road to one and a half and on several turns with the outside car on the edge of a cliff park rangers cam speeding around blind turns because this road is lightly traveled.

In another case I crashed hard and was walking my broken bicycle down the hill and a park ranger in a pickup truck drove right by me without so much as slowing down.

Is this the new California park system?

[Frank Krygowski]

And things like that never happen if there's a bike lane stripe!

Oh, wait...


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I don't think that's the purpose. Fog lines mark the edge of the road
for drivers, but fog lines don't follow the bike lane [sometimes]
protocol of becoming dashed lines at intersections, as those in the
satellite clearly do.

Joerg claims that they used to be marked as bike lanes, but the markings
were removed. That may make them what's sometimes termed an "unmarked"
or "undeclared" bike lane. I've seen them in many places. An "unmarked
bike lane" is a way for traffic engineers to satisfy the "gotta have a
paint stripe" crowd, without actually doing a proper design, and without
incurring the liability for a deficient design. In most states it
legally turns that section of pavement into a shoulder, a place which
motorists are prohibited to use.

In most states, cyclists are not prohibited from using the shoulder, and
most cyclists seem to ride there when available. There are practical
and legal problems, though. Practically, there's almost always much
more flat-causing debris there; and when some serious junk appears in
the shoulder, it can be harder to merge back onto the roadway (i.e. the
part of the road actually intended for vehicular travel.)

Legally, it's my understanding that at least in some states, when riding
on the shoulder a cyclist loses some rights; i.e. there are or may be
traffic laws that no longer apply. For example, if someone pulls out of
a stop sign in front of a shoulder cyclist, he may have a defense in
that the cyclists was not actually on the "roadway."

But IANAL, and these laws vary from state to state anyway.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/4/2016 6:08 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Google maps is leading traffic over roads not designed for heavy traffic and this is ruining the few good roads left in California.
>
> I want to see Google made to pay up for damages to roads like Redwood Rd. and Pinehurst and Valley road in Oakland/Moraga area because they route HEAVY traffic on this barely two lane road when highway 24 is having traffic jams.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/a21212/how-homeowners-fighting-waze/


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I find the whole question of "bike paths" to be a bit redundant :-)
The countries I've ridden in during the past 20 or 30 years don't have
them, or at least have very, very, very few, and my suspicion is that
there are more bicycles per capita in these countries than in the U.S.
I'm not sure whether bicycle accidents are relatively rare or possibly
not commonly reported, as I can't remember ever seeing a newspaper
article about bike accidents.

I wonder, do bike lanes actually result in a decrease in bike crashes?
Or are they just a means of making insecure people feel protected.

I might add that a highway I ride about 3 Km on, in every one of my
Bangkok rides is the most heavily used highway in Bangkok with 150,000
cars a day traveling over it.

I might also say that according to U.S. statistics, a bicycle is the
safest method of travel on U.S. streets and highways, safer than
autos, motorcycles, and pedestrians about 1.7% of all highway deaths.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 04 Sep 2016 08:14:57 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2016-09-03 14:59, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>> <https://goo.gl/maps/aWxuDY1xZg42>

>That means nothing. I have long since abandoned Google for finding
>cycleable routes.

Well, there's Open Bicycle Map:
<https://www.opencyclemap.org/?zoom=16&lat=38.57916&lon=-121.53532&layers=B0000>
Looks like most of West Capitol Ave is a designated bicycle route.
Unlike Google Maps, you can submit corrections to OpenStreeMaps (OSM).

>It also goes the other way. For example, the route to
>Placerville I'll take later this week is very nice and completely
>segragated to the point where most of the time you can't even hear cars.
>Yet it's not even on their map.

I'll take your word for it. I burned some time double checking the
OSM bicycle routes in my area (San Lorenzo Valley) and ran into some
complications when the trails went through private property and State
parks. Otherwise, the roads and streets were quite accurate.

Incidentally, I've downloaded and installed OSM maps in most of my
Garmin GPS mapping devices:
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/Download>
<http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl>
<http://www.gmaptool.eu/en/content/usa-osm-topo-routable>
and on my smartphone in MyTrails:
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.frogsparks.mytrails&hl=en>

>Same for the route I'll be on later today. According to Google two major
>stretches I use at least once a week do not exist.

I'll also take your word for that. We had a problem about 10 years
ago with Google maps using NAD27 datum in half of Santa Cruz, and
WGS84 in the other half. The overlap was obvious with a horizontal
error of about 130ft. Various people were moaning and groaning about
the problem for about 2 years. I finally got fed up and submitted a
correction. It was fixed in about a month. If you find a mistake, I
suggest you report it. On the other hand, if you want to keep the
route to yourself, maybe you shouldn't tell Google that it exists.

[Joerg]

No, normal driver behavior it seems. I was mashing up Malcom-Dixon Road
when I heard a big pickup truck approaching from behind. He hesitated,
then gunned it. He gave me the 3ft space alright but almost had a
head-on collision with a car coming down the same road. That driver
saved the day by bailing into a driveway. I could barely see him because
of the huge soot cloud the truck's Diesel engine let off.

[Tim McNamara]

On Sat, 3 Sep 2016 17:04:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> We have advocates demanding deficient, even insane designs, because
> "any bike facility is a good bike facility." Then when the design
> injures or kills a cyclist (as in this case) we have people claiming
> "well, the concept is good, they just messed up when they built it."

That's because the bike facilities are about politics and not about
riding bikes.

We have numerous examples of this in the Twin Cities and of horrible
compromises when the bike lobby ran into more powerful lobbies- such as
bike lanes on the left side of one way streets (so as not to
inconvenience the buses) which dump the rider into head-on traffic when
the street changes to 2 ways once out of the downtown area. Or one
street where the bike lane is the buffer between three lanes going one
way and a contraflow bus and cab lane going the other way.

Our newest "bike facility" put two bike lanes down a narrow, high
traffic street/bus route. Much of the length of the street was too
narrow to accommodate parking and now has two very narrow traffic lanes
(the same width as the buses) and two narrow bike lanes shoehorned into
what had been two traffic lanes. On the rest of the street, where there
was parking, residents and business have lost that. It's terrible. The
experienced cyclists warned the city about this repeatedly, but the city
council aligned with the "Bike Coalition" over good, practical advice.
(Our city council has fallen prey to a bad case of "we know betterism"
in the past few years, forgetting that they got elected because the
previous city council did the same and pissed off the constituency and
had a bit of a house cleaning).

There has been a dramatic local trend over the past decade of taking
high-volume four lane through streets and converting them to two lane,
high-volume through streets with islands and bike lanes- making for
horrible driving, pedestrian and cycling experiences. Apparently in
some idiot handbook of road design this is considered better- that roads
should be inadequate for all uses, not just some.

On the up side there has been some development of "bike boulevards"
through the metro areas on quiet streets that are pretty good for
getting from point A to point B. More of those would be a much better
idea than further pissing off the rest of our fellow citizens.

[Tim McNamara]

On Sun, 04 Sep 2016 08:08:30 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

> Sometimes I wonder why it always takes a death until city planners
> wake up.

Because they don't even know it's a problem until then.

[jbeattie]

+1. Same experience here. Bike Boulevards have been a low-budget, non-invasive hit.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

Sometimes they did where people have pointed out risky areas and where
there have been many accidents. For example, the road from our
neighborhood into the main throughfare had no traffic light just like
most others didn't. About every monthly there was at least one major
wreck with serious injuries. Then a couple did. I heard it from a mile
away, the impact sounded like an exploding propane tank (and initially I
thought it was). Finally traffic lights were put in.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

humor is not your forte

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

http://www.news-press.com/story/life/2016/09/05/bike-safety-right-path/89726640/

[Frank Krygowski]

I like bike boulevards better than almost any bike facility.

The trouble is, they generally require a pre-existing grid layout, or
something close. And since about 1950 or 1960, most suburban
development has separated commercial use from residential developments,
and the residential developments have been deliberately designed as
curvy mazes, often disconnected from adjoining developments.

Today I rode across out metro area to a distant bike shop to return a
borrowed tool. In a sense, I guess I used my own "bike boulevards,"
wending my way through many of those maze neighborhoods. Trouble was, I
had to stop over a dozen times in 31 miles to do detailed map navigating.

Does anyone live in a metro area with these curvy neighborhoods, that
features wayfinding signs for cycling routes? I was fantasizing about
bike route signs through the neighborhood mazes that said "Austintown
Plaza this way." (I saw some of that in Zurich, Switzerland.)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Gps panels show 'distance to next right turn' ... in a preplanned route

Sure, there are signs. Maybe not where your need is..

GPS.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

http://m.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/4-Hours-in-Huntington-how-the-heroin-epidemic-9202711.php

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

local news. there was an expensive county multicolor eternal wall hanging map in the library.

good ride.

bridges outback were never built.

XXXXXXX road signs ......

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 09-05-2016 19:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> Does anyone live in a metro area with these curvy neighborhoods, that
> features wayfinding signs for cycling routes? I was fantasizing about
> bike route signs through the neighborhood mazes that said "Austintown
> Plaza this way." (I saw some of that in Zurich, Switzerland.)

Sort of. Only where I lived, the "bike routes" were non-curvy streets
with lots of "share the road" signs. But we also had a lot of separated
"no motorized vehicles" paths.

--
Wes Groleau

[jbeattie]

They stick sharrows everywhere around here -- on steep grades: http://tinyurl.com/h5jpjac And on pavement so broken up that it's hard to keep your grip on the bars: http://tinyurl.com/hocjfwk Scroll down the road, it gets worse. Practically every little road is a bike route. The sharrow salesman really scored in Portland. These, however, are not "bicycle boulevards" -- at least as far as I know.

There are some pretty crazy bike lanes, too. http://tinyurl.com/jkolash There is an emergency room at the top of that hill, which would be a welcome stop for those commuting on Amsterdam specials.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 9/6/2016 5:50 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 4:14:26 PM UTC-7, W. Wesley Groleau wrote:
>> On 09-05-2016 19:06, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> Does anyone live in a metro area with these curvy neighborhoods, that
>>> features wayfinding signs for cycling routes? I was fantasizing about
>>> bike route signs through the neighborhood mazes that said "Austintown
>>> Plaza this way." (I saw some of that in Zurich, Switzerland.)
>>
>> Sort of. Only where I lived, the "bike routes" were non-curvy streets
>> with lots of "share the road" signs. But we also had a lot of separated
>> "no motorized vehicles" paths.
>
> They stick sharrows everywhere around here -- on steep grades: http://tinyurl.com/h5jpjac And on pavement so broken up that it's hard to keep your grip on the bars: http://tinyurl.com/hocjfwk Scroll down the road, it gets worse. Practically every little road is a bike route. The sharrow salesman really scored in Portland. These, however, are not "bicycle boulevards" -- at least as far as I know.

I complained to our public works director about sharrows that are bad
for cyclists. To no avail.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/6/2016 8:50 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> They stick sharrows everywhere around here -- on steep grades: http://tinyurl.com/h5jpjac And on pavement so broken up that it's hard to keep your grip on the bars: http://tinyurl.com/hocjfwk Scroll down the road, it gets worse. Practically every little road is a bike route. The sharrow salesman really scored in Portland. These, however, are not "bicycle boulevards" -- at least as far as I know.

Well, I agree with the idea of every little road being a bike route. No
sharrows needed.

I think the real function of sharrows is to give the timid permission to
do what they're allowed to do anyway. I know they're also supposed to
educate drivers a bit, but the "bicyclists may ride here" message should
apply everywhere by default.

> There are some pretty crazy bike lanes, too. http://tinyurl.com/jkolash There is an emergency room at the top of that hill, which would be a welcome stop for those commuting on Amsterdam specials.

The ER may also come in handy for those cyclists who feel protected at
the top, standing to the right of a vehicle that turns right and over them.

Of course, the ER is little use if you're flattened. And that
situation, a bike lane to the right of right turning motor vehicles,
does regularly flatten cyclists. It (or its British mirror image) is
what triggered the deaths that caused all the "Bicycling is dangerous!"
hullabaloo in London last year.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Not to provoke an argument here but I am a bit confused about this
right/left turn stuff. We certainly have intersections here and as a
general rule left turns (right in some countries) are allowed,
providing it is safe, on a red light.

But my experience has been that if you just look behind you when
approaching the intersection you can see anyone that is overtaking you
and may turn into you. In fact, I find that just looking around while
riding will give sufficient warning to avoid most threatening
situations.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Here's what caused most of the highly publicized London deaths (and
causes many others elsewhere):

The street in question has a curb, then a bike lane, then a "motor
vehicle lane" (although that latter one is legal for cyclists to use).

A cyclist comes up in the bike lane and stops for the red light. A
large vehicle (truck or bus) may be already there, or may arrive after
the cyclist. In any case, the cyclist is at the curb side of that vehicle.

Perhaps the light turns green, or perhaps the motor vehicle has
permission to turn on red. The driver can't see the cyclist because of
the vehicle's blind spots. As he turns, the rear wheels run over the
cyclist.

Other variations are possible. But the general idea is, you don't want
to be at the side of a vehicle that is likely to turn in your direction.
Take the lane. Also, if you're moving the same speed as motor
vehicles, there's probably no reason for you to be at the road's edge.
That includes when the speed is zero, i.e. stopped. Take the lane.

And if you ever do have to pass a motor vehicle at the curb side, do so
very, very carefully. It's usually better to just wait in the queue.
Saving a few seconds isn't worth much risk.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

No, unexercised intelligence. perception and judgement is the norm.

goo isnt shrting URL so

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Summerlin+Rd+%26+Safety+St,+Fort+Myers,+FL+33908/@26.4940422,-81.9296024,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s2sDRN9WIoJ5AiMEhcmyV_g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D2sDRN9WIoJ5AiMEhcmyV_g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D52.460026%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x88db3e95a5c27d47:0x9cbf50dd5b5914e1!8m2!3d26.4944373!4d-81.9295952!6m1!1e1

this is the first turn. the path is a world class bike path running to 75 miles from beach to burbs.

have I watched a bicycle or cycle group stop as I approach in a large van ?

NEVER !

[John B.]

On Wed, 7 Sep 2016 09:26:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski

From your description I can see what happened but I( still don't
understand how it happened. You are sitting quietly there in the road
and a big truck hits you. Don't these people look around to see what
is going on?

The Wikki has it that "Self-preservation is a behavior that ensures
the survival of an organism. It is almost universal among living
organisms."

Except among bicyclists?
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

I think the main problem is that these cyclists have no idea that the
hazard exists. The thinking - as far as any thinking occurs - is that
since they're in a bike lane, they're safe.

In many London cases, the problem was apparently exacerbated by curb
barriers much like fences. They gave cyclists no escape route. But the
problem has occurred without those barriers, too. I think the cyclists
just don't recognize what's happening until it's too late.

The lesson is, don't put yourself at the curb side of a vehicle that may
turn toward the curb.

The problem is, most bike lanes give precisely the opposite message.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Wed, 7 Sep 2016 23:50:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski

One technique that seems to help me is don't crowd right up to the
"stop line", hang back 10 or 20 feet so you can see what is going on.
Another thing I do is "let 'em go by". Quite frequently I will wait
until the densest part of the traffic passes the intersection before I
ride on.

My basic theory is "Don't get hit" rather than
I got a right!".

--
cheers,

John B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

OK J, who died last month ?

[jbeattie]

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 11:55:11 AM UTC-7, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> OK J, who died last month ?

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/08/bicyclist_box_truck_driver_idd.html

Right hook by giant truck. More: http://bikeportland.org/2016/08/01/from-the-scene-of-tragedy-a-dispatch-from-82nd-and-flavel-188780

-- Jay Beattie.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Portland roads are antique from lack of space. Would I ride in there ? no....

goo.gl/KshFD6

Did Silva see her ? why not ? could she have pulled aside ? looks that way ....

what did Silva do drive up turn n crush a standing cycle ?

witness puhlease.....

Where's Joerge of Placerville ?

[jbeattie]

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 3:21:56 PM UTC-7, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 4:14:02 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 11:55:11 AM UTC-7, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> > > OK J, who died last month ?
> >
> > http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/08/bicyclist_box_truck_driver_idd.html
> >
> > Right hook by giant truck. More: http://bikeportland.org/2016/08/01/from-the-scene-of-tragedy-a-dispatch-from-82nd-and-flavel-188780
> >
> > -- Jay Beattie.
>
> Portland roads are antique from lack of space. Would I ride in there ? no....
>
> goo.gl/KshFD6
>

It's a shitty part of town, but not the killing fields. There is a bike lane -- and all the risks that go along with a bike lane, like right hooks by unconscious drivers.

-- Jay Beattie.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Jay ,

post a Google Maps of the worser parts of town intersections.

let us know what the DA sez

Joerg can offer a comparison.

a comparison is in facto fascinating as variables are many ....is Sacra a similar fatal potential as infrastructure to Portland ?

Google Scholar for AM's position in hard weather vs monkey weather.

Or here: abundant tax money, all new construction planned for ease and attrackivity...what we see or doahn see are amateurish bicycle riders riding carelessly.

I don't know if information is publically available here in online searching.

[jbeattie]

All of Portland is super scary. It's so scary that we don't have mountain lions. They're too scared. Here's one scary stretch near my house: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlVketuNlzI About 25 years ago, before they fixed the transitions, it was like doing a ski jump off the tops of the turns.

-- Jay Beattie.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

turn up to go down turn down to go up ?

all Joerg has are the Sierra's

here picture a stream of cars driven by outstate drunks n junkies on vacation.

goo.gl/PrvNNw

I may hold the crossings record at @520

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 09-08-2016 03:14, John B. wrote:
> One technique that seems to help me is don't crowd right up to the
> "stop line", hang back 10 or 20 feet so you can see what is going on.
> Another thing I do is "let 'em go by". Quite frequently I will wait
> until the densest part of the traffic passes the intersection before I
> ride on.

To get in the center of the line of cars is a lot easier. The risk of
someone running into you when you are where he's looking is much less
than when you are where he's turning. He's looking ahead and to the
left (right in UK) to see whether traffic prevents his turn.

--
Wes Groleau

[Frank Krygowski]

My gutsy kid rode that when she lived out there. I'm kinda jealous.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

I'm kinda jealous.

THINK OF THE MONEY SAVED NOT NEEDING PLASTIC SURGERY...

there's an accident center

http://accidentdatacenter.com/us/florida/ft-myers-naples-fl/lee-county-fl

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

this is typical...for 5/19

cyclist no ID crosses from right screen ....?

goo.gl/XIyMbW

[John B.]

Try it on a highway where autos are traveling between 50 and 90 mph
and the traffic density is in the 260,000 cars a day range.
--
cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

When I first saw it, I thought it was an empty swimming pool. It was quite an adjustment after racing exclusively at the Hellyer Park super-highway velodrome in San Jose. https://bayarearidgetrailrun.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/hellyer-velodrome.jpeg

-- Jay Beattie.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

TAKE THE KANE PLUS

I drove into one this morning.

Turning 180 from the median jughandle I was in the lead into the long right but building speed slowly as the pack coming down the Cow Slough straight moved up behind me as we passed the Pine Ridge light.

The pack could smell my blood.

The sign sez

BIKE LANE ENDS

the actual bike path is on the other side of the blvd.

you are there:

goo.gl/orzlJg

see the bike lane ? see the sidewalk ?

there's a man bare torso pedaling wildly right in front of me....the emergency blinkers were on 150' back


this is the business zone...see the bike lane ? we shoulder n bluff to get in line for the turn under the bridge.

youse guys behind the Bud truck are dead meat nyah nyah nyah

goo.gl/G9VAwz

Sanibel traffic goes over the bridge past the bridge they open it up crossing the marsh....this was when I first came thru an Alabama stop with 3 legged dog ...the distance perspective is abt 3x too long

the cyclist is in my right lane pedaling wildly

I blow the air horn

bllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwoooooo

the cyclist moves left into the express lane for Fort Myers Beach the red light district ...that is my lane stupid ....the emergency flashers n my rep have formed a parade behind me.

the cyclist now moves left from the FMB EXPRESS LANE to the Sanibel Island slow lane to go where no cyclist has gone before over the freaking bridge....unreal Dude.

an asylum escapee


cyclist now leads a pack of tradesmen, call girls n PWT all late for work n daze all gonna get shitcanned for this ...over the bridge.

I activate the down left side window n bellow

THE BIKE LANE IS ON THE OTHER SIDE

TODAY IS MY DAY TO BE CIVIL.

I had not looked in the mirror focused front but for a koment I expected a crushed cyclist and a flood of blood over the windshield....

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

cyclist went into the bridge lane here

goo.gl/odjVl5

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

pole position is left lane.

running down pedestrians is minus 300k points

goo.gl/U85UnT

one of last winters highlights was a carload of female drunks running all lanes against the lights from the left into the turn lane going straight on away from this position ...in traffic during rush hour !

cyclists crossing in here are paranoid n cautious. the peloton takes a short cut.

[John B.]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 06:50:43 +0700, John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz>
wrote:

Sorry, should have been 50 - 90 kph.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

There certainly are roads where riding lane centered is very difficult;
but they are much less common than many would have you believe.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

These fatals are all bike lane centurd

[John B.]

It depends :-)

I generally ride two loops in Bangkok. One is 15 km, my week day ride,
and the other is 50 KM, my Sunday ride. Both include about 2 km of the
"big road" with the 160,000 vehicle density, that I had mentioned, and
generally speaking the remainder is 4 - 6 lane. I would guess that the
minimum speed on nearly the whole distance of either route is above 50
kmh.

In Phuket, on the either hand, while the location of my village does
dictate riding on the main N - S access road on the island which is 4
- 6 lanes with speeds of 80 - 100+ speeds at least a third of my usual
20 - 70 Km. ride will be over nice wide 2 lane roads, although speeds
will be in the 50 - 100 kph range. Mostly nice smooth blacktop :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[W. Wesley Groleau]

What you should do on a highway is 99.9% irrelevent to what you should
do at a red stop-light.

Next!

--
Wes Groleau

[John B.]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 10:36:58 -0500, "W. Wesley Groleau"

There is an addendum to the original where I correct the 50 - 90 mph
to 50 - 90 kph.

Next? Nearly all the roads I bicycle on are multi lane roads with
traffic traveling at the mentioned speeds and (surprise, surprise)
they have stop lights, just as does any city street.

--
cheers,

John B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Wong

Your path is contained by its structure.

Perceptual failures are accidents' cause

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

No monkeys ?

[Frank Krygowski]

50 - 90 kph = 30 - 55 mph. Those are very, very normal around here.
Only the city-center commercial streets, residential streets (25 mph)
and school zones (20 mph) have lower speed limits

Yes, some of my riding is on those lower speed limits. But almost all
of it is on streets and roads with 30 - 55 mph limits. And at a red
light, I am _always_ at lane center.

It's not difficult to position one's self at lane center, and I think it
makes much more sense than sitting in what's been called the "coffin
corner," to the right of a vehicle that may turn right.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Bertrand]

> Yes, some of my riding is on those lower speed limits. But almost all of
> it is on streets and roads with 30 - 55 mph limits. And at a red light, I
> am _always_ at lane center.

> It's not difficult to position one's self at lane center, and I think it
> makes much more sense than sitting in what's been called the "coffin
> corner," to the right of a vehicle that may turn right.

I'm curious what you do when you come to a red light (on a two-lane road)
with cars already waiting in front of you. Do you wait lane center behind
the waiting cars, then stay lane center until through the intersection? Do
you ever filter past on the right while the light is red?

[W. Wesley Groleau]

My post was in response to your post about people getting run over by
folks turning right at intersections. This does not happen on highways
at fifty KPH. I stand by my recommendation.

--
Wes Groleau

[W. Wesley Groleau]

As I approach the red light, if I am not already lane-center, I get
there as soon as I can. I begin to drift right AFTER there is enough
space for drivers to turn BEHIND me.

I will filter past on the right only if I m sure there is enough time to
get to the front before the light turns, and only if the guy at the head
of the line appears to be neither an idiot nor planning to turn.

--
Wes Groleau

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Good idea Wes....competition for TSD space at the red light

Get to the not road side n wait till the intersection clears

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 09-11-2016 15:07, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> Good idea Wes....competition for TSD space at the red light
>
> Get to the not road side n wait till the intersection clears

I have been places where that approach would _literally_ get you
nowhere—the intersection clears when drivers finally stop for the next
red light, about two seconds after it turns red.


--
Wes Groleau

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

gnaw BS BS BS quick lights n sveral secods is absurd....are not relevant to irresponsible riding at intersections

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

my favorite

switch into maps, zoom n drop the man for a street view.

crossing is impossible.

the police are sympathetic offering advice over a loudspeaker of a law requiring a secondary crossing more than 100 yards away from ? somewhere in there

goo.gl/jCFKji

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

BTW I was there in '52....what you see down there was all scrub all the way east to the RR and RR station.

[Frank Krygowski]

I almost always wait lane center behind the waiting cars. The only
exception is if it's clear that waiting there will cause me to miss at
least one green light cycle. In fact, if it's just one missed cycle,
I'll usually wait.

My rationalization is this: First, filtering often has significant
risk. Second, if I filter right, the motorists I pass are probably
going to have to pass me again, so it seems a little rude to put them in
that position when they were there first. Third, I often think (about
impatient motorists) "What's your hurry? Do you really need to get home
in time to catch one more commercial on _Oprah_?" But if I chide them
for that, I shouldn't give myself license to do the same thing.

Having said that, I've occasionally filtered through extremely long,
multi-light-cycle queues. When I've done it, it's been at slow speed,
very carefully, on high alert.
--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

P.S. On the rare occasions I have filtered forward, I've stopped behind
the first car, slightly to the right if there wasn't room behind; and
I've looked over my shoulder and silently, deferentially "asked
permission" from the driver in the second car. I want him to view me as
a human being. And I've made sure to let him pass ASAP.

Of course, I'm definitely on the lookout for right turn signals in that
situation.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Radey Shouman]

You never know. Last week I was waiting for a green light, in the
middle of the right hand lane of a four lane street. I was lane center,
at the front. There were four or five cars waiting in the lane to my
left. The light turned green, and the joker to my left, apparently
having decided he was going the wrong way, made a right turn across my
lane, right in front of me. No signal, no wave, no by-your-leave.

Good thing I wasn't too fast off the mark.

--

[John B.]

What confuses me is what do you do when the light turns green? There
you are, lane center in a line of cars, perhaps 100 mtrs. long, on a
road solid packed with cars, wall to wall, so to speak. As soon as the
light turns green these cars are going to accelerate to probably 50
kph. What do you do? I doubt that you can pedal 50 kph, so are you now
the front runner in a line of cars 100 mtrs. long?

These are not unusual early morning traffic conditions here and the
100 mtrs is what I normally encounter on my usual weekday morning
rides.

http://tinyurl.com/gpw7zre
for example:

This photo was likely made to exaggerate traffic conditions but assume
that the line of traffic is only 100 mtrs. long rather than stretching
out of sight and you are looking at the traffic I encounter every
weekday morning I ride.
--
cheers,

John B.

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 09-11-2016 21:00, John B. wrote:
> What confuses me is what do you do when the light turns green? There
> you are, lane center in a line of cars, perhaps 100 mtrs. long, on a
> road solid packed with cars, wall to wall, so to speak. As soon as the
> light turns green these cars are going to accelerate to probably 50
> kph. What do you do? I doubt that you can pedal 50 kph, so are you now
> the front runner in a line of cars 100 mtrs. long?

If Siamese drivers are that stupid, then don't bike in Thailand.
Very few Americans are going to "accelerate to fifty KPH" with a bicycle
directly in front of them. None, if there are witnesses.

AND, I can accelerate faster than they can, so by the time they catch
me, I am across the intersection and (if safe) over to the right again.

--
Wes Groleau

[John B.]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 22:06:34 -0500, "W. Wesley Groleau"
<Grolea...@FreeShell.org> wrote:

>On 09-11-2016 21:00, John B. wrote:
>> What confuses me is what do you do when the light turns green? There
>> you are, lane center in a line of cars, perhaps 100 mtrs. long, on a
>> road solid packed with cars, wall to wall, so to speak. As soon as the
>> light turns green these cars are going to accelerate to probably 50
>> kph. What do you do? I doubt that you can pedal 50 kph, so are you now
>> the front runner in a line of cars 100 mtrs. long?
>
>If Siamese drivers are that stupid, then don't bike in Thailand.
>Very few Americans are going to "accelerate to fifty KPH" with a bicycle
>directly in front of them. None, if there are witnesses.

There have been no Siamese since 1939, except for a 4 year period from
1945 - 49.

But that aside, all of the cars except for those behind you are going
to accelerate, the entire row in each lane, except for those in your
lane. Which means that until the cars in the surrounding lanes have
passed you, your lane is going to be a train of cars being held back
you.

>AND, I can accelerate faster than they can, so by the time they catch
>me, I am across the intersection and (if safe) over to the right again.

Unless you can reach 50 kph in the width of an intersection. In fact
for you to gain enough space to safely pull over to the right you are
going to have to out accelerate the automobiles so probably you better
plan on hitting 60 kph.

Frankly, I doubt that you can do that.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Duane]

I was lane center in a fast descent when a woman pulled out in front of me
causing me to break hard. She then crossed to the left lane and proceeded
without seeing me. I continued to the bottom of the hill where I saw her
stop in the left lane and turn right in front of me. Apparently into her
driveway. When I got up off the ground and went toward her car I actually
startled her. She hadn't even seen me. Of my 11 friends. All of us in
the lane with bright clothes on. Apparently she was having an argument
with her boyfriend or something on her phone. My friends refer to this as
the day the blond tried to kill me twice.

People do stupid things. Stupid people can drive cars and then their
stupid things get dangerous for cyclists. I'm always lane center at red
lights. I can't tell you how many times some Yahoo forced his way around
me when the light turned green even though I was moving to the right after
the light. You have to ride defensively and expect the stupid people to do
stupid things.

--
duane

[Frank Krygowski]

Yep. You have to stay alert to anticipate the idiocy.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

First, let's review a fundamental principle: I do have a right to use
the road. So if it's necessary for me to use a road where 100 meters of
cars will be held up slightly, I'll do it. Of course, I'll pull off
when safe to let them by.

But in reality, that situation doesn't arise very often around here -
or, come to think of it, any place else I can recall cycling. Holding
up even five or six cars is fairly uncommon.

There are several reasons, I think. One is that at most traffic light
intersections, some cars in the right lane will be turning right. And
even at my age, I can accelerate away from a light faster than most
motorists (largely because I actually pay attention and see the green
light). Those two facts create space behind me.

Another reason is that for roads of certain "intermediate" width, I'm
willing to share the lane when closing velocity is low and I know I'm
clearly seen. When traffic passes, I then move toward lane center.
(That happens almost daily at one intersection I commonly use.)

And I'll note that I tend to choose quieter roads when available. That
alone makes a big difference.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 09-11-2016 23:22, John B. wrote:
> But that aside, all of the cars except for those behind you are going
> to accelerate, the entire row in each lane, except for those in your
> lane. Which means that until the cars in the surrounding lanes have
> passed you, your lane is going to be a train of cars being held back
> you.

If that were true, I would say, "So? I am under no obligation to risk
my life so some driver can get somewhere five seconds sooner."

But it isn't true. What will happen is what has happened hundreds of
times since I got rid of my car: I will be across two or more lanes of
the cross street and one meter or more right of lane center before any
of them pass me.

They can go faster than I can, but they can't do the first several
meters faster than I can. At least, it hasn't happened yet, and I've
been pedal power for over six years.

--
Wes Groleau

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 09-12-2016 09:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> even at my age, I can accelerate away from a light faster than most
> motorists

So there are at least two of us. (And my age = 62)

--
Wes Groleau