Blame USA for European crisis

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

First Ukraine, then the wave of immigrants and finally Obama asking the UK to stay in Europe. Why?

America wouldn't even qualify to be in the EU. Yeah, it was a nice project before Ukraine. 😐


----------------------------------

"Life's cheap, profits are sacred"

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nffbCR_uCZ6znjf3gLiFRXSAoLzhWtoZ6U4S7Y37aKc/edit?usp=sharing

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 9:14:39 PM UTC-4, lo yeeOn wrote:
> In article <79d0cc5a-4fdb-4e44...@googlegroups.com>,
> ltlee1 <ltl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/International-Relations/Why-Britain-voted-to-leave-the-EU?
> >----------------
> >When Prime Minister David Cameron announced his fateful promise to hold
> >a referendum on British membership of the EU in January 2013, he thought
> >he was making a safe bet...
> >What Cameron failed to spot was that Westminster and its overwhelming
> >majority of pro-EU MPs was increasingly out of tune with the British
> >popular mood....
> >Popular anger with the EU came to a head after the union expanded
> >dramatically eastwards in 2004, with the accession of 10 poorer, mostly
> >ex-communist states in the centre and east of Europe. Almost
> >immediately, hundreds of thousands of migrants from these new member
> >states flocked west to the U.K., drawn by its buoyant economy and
> >accessible language. ...
> >As popular resentment grew, the stock response of all the main political
> >parties was to ignore it. Voters who criticized the inflow of migrants
> >were dismissed as bigoted, ignorant or racist, their concerns ignored
>
> But aren't they supposed to share? A EU is supposed to be a pan-Europe
> commonwealth. What is a membership in it for if you only expect to
> take but not give?
>
> Of course, the EU is not an altruistic political organization.
>
> It's based in Brussels, just as NATO has always been.
>
> They were both created to support the agenda issued from Washington.
>
> And that's why globalists such as George Soros, Donald Tusk, the
> Clintons, and all the establishment politicians in Washington and in
> major European capitals have all warned against Brexit.
>
> What Washington wants is clear. It wants NATO countries and Japan to
> share its costly expense to run its wars and the EU countries to
> absorb the huge number of refugees resulting from its "humanitarian
> missions".
>
> But NATO and EU are pretty much the same club, apart from Japan,
> Canada, and the US.
>
> Of course, freedom to trade is not free.
>
> Members have to pay with hard cash and even the lives of their own
> citizens.
>
> That's the way to minimize war deaths and casualties endured by US
> military personnel. (Another way to cut down those statistics is by
> using private contractors.)
>
> And don't forget Obama has boasted of bombing seven countries.
>
> How can one country manage the aftermath of such a mind-boggling scale
> of violence without an entourage of helping hands trailing the path of
> its destruction?
>
> So, in a nutshell, is the price for joining the EU. But who should a
> politician like Cameron care when the expense of a EU membership will
> be shouldered by the common people alone?
>
> Of course, Cameron bet and lost.
>
> He thought a referendum was a way to solidify his grip of power.
>
> But he has no business expecting such a rosy outcome when he
> cavalierly participated in the destruction of Libya.
>
> If Libya wasn't attacked, there wouldn't have been the huge number of
> migrants and refugees from Africa today and there wouldn't be the huge
> number of refugees coming from Syria because it was Secretary of State
> Hillary Clinton's mercenaries who fought for the US-led NATO campaign
> in Libya who were then hired to fight in Syria once Qaddafi was
> broken.
>
> lo yeeOn
>

Amen. You said it all. Washington made it, Washington broke it. 😐

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 4:41:15 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:

> >Amen. You said it all. Washington made it, Washington broke it. ?
>
> Thus spake the alligators.
>
> The US financed NATO to protect Western Europe from becoming like East
> Europe, at great expense to ourselves.
>
> The Middle-East wars are largely to protect Europe's petrol supply.
>
> The EU was created as a bastion AGAINST US economic strength.
>
> George Sorros is not an American. He is a very bad man who became
> filthy rich off the pains of others - rich enough to buy the Clintons,
> Obama, and others, to the chagrin of US interests.
>
> The notion that Washington created the EU is idiotic.

If not in the creation itself, America was an active participant in the expansion of both the EU and NATO into Eastern Europe.

Now they are collecting the fruits of that expansion. The US/EU grabbed Ukraine but lost the UK. The ideals of peace and cooperation are gone. The British are saying enough to the waves of immigrants. Libya was another big blow.

Who do you blame?

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

https://maasaiboys.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/burning-bush.jpg

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 8:13:34 PM UTC-4, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> https://maasaiboys.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/burning-bush.jpg

Allah?

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 8:00:50 PM UTC-4, wakal...@yahoo.com.sg wrote:
> Britain and the EU have to take the blame for the mess.
>
> Wakalukong

Think of it like a gay marriage: America is on top, Europe is doing the bottom. 😉

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 8:53:52 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:

> YOU! Makes as much sense as blaming the US. The US had zip to do
> with ex-communist countries joining the EU. We would have preferred
> to trade/deal with each directly. The Brits are tired of Brussels
> telling them what to do. Immigration is but one factor.

You want the EU for Eastern Europe but not for you. You forced it upon Ukraine.

Obviously YOU are the problem. 👎

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 11:02:24 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 18:34:24 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 8:53:52 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> >> On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 16:21:03 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> >> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >Now they are collecting the fruits of that expansion. The US/EU grabbed Ukraine but lost the UK. The ideals of peace and cooperation are gone. The British are saying enough to the waves of immigrants. Libya was another big blow.
> >> >
> >> >Who do you blame?
> >>
> >> YOU! Makes as much sense as blaming the US. The US had zip to do
> >> with ex-communist countries joining the EU. We would have preferred
> >> to trade/deal with each directly. The Brits are tired of Brussels
> >> telling them what to do. Immigration is but one factor.
> >
> >You want the EU for Eastern Europe but not for you. You forced it upon Ukraine.
> >

> >Obviously YOU are the problem. ?
>
> Makes as much sense as to blame a nation of over 300 million people
> and a government comprising close to 1000. Alligator logic.

In Europe your views on climate change and bicycling would be viewed as radical.

I think they should dismantle Europe and NATO. Bring your bases home.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

BING suggests alcohol

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 6:58:18 AM UTC-4, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> BING suggests alcohol

BANG suggests a gun.

[John B.]

On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 18:35:12 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 8:53:52 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 16:21:03 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
>> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Now they are collecting the fruits of that expansion. The US/EU grabbed Ukraine but lost the UK. The ideals of peace and cooperation are gone. The British are saying enough to the waves of immigrants. Libya was another big blow.
>> >
>> >Who do you blame?
>>
>> YOU! Makes as much sense as blaming the US. The US had zip to do
>> with ex-communist countries joining the EU. We would have preferred
>> to trade/deal with each directly. The Brits are tired of Brussels
>> telling them what to do. Immigration is but one factor.
>
>You want the EU for Eastern Europe but not for you. You forced it upon Ukraine.

"Forced it on the Ukraine"? But the Ukraine is not a member of the EU.
And probably with their present economic conditions it will likely be
quite a while before they would be qualified to join.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

I know it'll take a while but eventually it will go into the EU and NATO. They are already having military exercises and receiving aid. Membership is in the air.

[John B.]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 17:19:33 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Well, you "know", but how do you know? Somebody whispered it in you
ear the other day, down at the 7-11?

Is "receiving aid" how one joins the E.U.?

Somehow I am beginning to suspect that you aren't really knowledgeable
about what you talk about.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

I see you believe in altruism. The EU/NATO are nonprofit organizations. 😉

[John B.]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2016 20:08:18 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

>I see you believe in altruism. The EU/NATO are nonprofit organizations. ?

Whatever are you going on about. "The EU and NATO nonprofit
organizations."

NATO was formed at the urging of the U.S., in 1949, to act as a
"fortress Europe" to stop, or at least delay the Russian tanks when
they started West across the Polish plains.

Currently about 20 - 22% of the NATO budget is directly paid by the
U.S., Germany pays about 15%, France 11% and the U.K. some 10%.

But I do see where you are coming from now. That NATO thing is one of
Trumps campaign schemes. And he exaggerates considerably.

The Truth of the matter is that, in 2012, the Congressional Research
Service produced a report that looked at direct NATO funding in detail
found that it was in the neighborhood of 200 million a year.

In spite of this documented study: http://www.act.nato.int/nsip
Trump says billions and billions.

While the average layman may not know it probably can be assumed that
a rich man like Trump would know the difference between billions and
millions.

As for the EU, I can find no references to any money furnished by the
U.S.

While, of course, every one is entitled to listen to anything, or
anyone, that they wish, but I do think that anyone, of at least normal
intelligence, would check the facts before leaping off the cliff, no
matter how many times Trump tells you "Don't worry, there is a cushion
down there".

I'll even enlarge on that and say "any politician".
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Well, leaving the modest funding aside for a minute, NATO has shown an appetite for fresh meat and I'm sure Ukraine is on the menu. All of Eastern Europe was swallowed already.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 11:16:09 PM UTC-4, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 11:02:24 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 18:34:24 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

> > Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 8:53:52 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> > >> On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 16:21:03 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> > >> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >Now they are collecting the fruits of that expansion. The US/EU grabbed Ukraine but lost the UK. The ideals of peace and cooperation are gone. The British are saying enough to the waves of immigrants. Libya was another big blow.
> > >> >
> > >> >Who do you blame?
> > >>
> > >> YOU! Makes as much sense as blaming the US. The US had zip to do
> > >> with ex-communist countries joining the EU. We would have preferred
> > >> to trade/deal with each directly. The Brits are tired of Brussels
> > >> telling them what to do. Immigration is but one factor.
> > >
> > >You want the EU for Eastern Europe but not for you. You forced it upon Ukraine.
> > >

> > >Obviously YOU are the problem. ?
> >
> > Makes as much sense as to blame a nation of over 300 million people
> > and a government comprising close to 1000. Alligator logic.
>
> In Europe your views on climate change and bicycling would be viewed as radical.
>
> I think they should dismantle Europe and NATO. Bring your bases home.

This Russian got it right:

Russian commissioner for entrepreneurs’ rights, Boris Titov, posted on Facebook, “UK out!!! In my opinion, the most important long-term consequence of all this is that the exit will take Europe away from the Anglo-Saxons, that is, from the USA. This is not the independence of Britain from Europe, but the independence of Europe from the USA.”

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 5:59:25 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jun 2016 07:51:37 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 11:16:09 PM UTC-4, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> >> On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 11:02:24 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> >> > On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 18:34:24 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> >> > Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 8:53:52 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> >> > >> On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 16:21:03 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> >> > >> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >> >Now they are collecting the fruits of that expansion. The US/EU grabbed Ukraine but lost the UK. The ideals of peace and cooperation are gone. The British are saying enough to the waves of immigrants. Libya was another big blow.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >Who do you blame?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> YOU! Makes as much sense as blaming the US. The US had zip to do
> >> > >> with ex-communist countries joining the EU. We would have preferred
> >> > >> to trade/deal with each directly. The Brits are tired of Brussels
> >> > >> telling them what to do. Immigration is but one factor.
> >> > >
> >> > >You want the EU for Eastern Europe but not for you. You forced it upon Ukraine.
> >> > >
> >> > >Obviously YOU are the problem. ?
> >> >
> >> > Makes as much sense as to blame a nation of over 300 million people
> >> > and a government comprising close to 1000. Alligator logic.
> >>
> >> In Europe your views on climate change and bicycling would be viewed as radical.
> >>
> >> I think they should dismantle Europe and NATO. Bring your bases home.
> >
> >This Russian got it right:
> >
> >Russian commissioner for entrepreneurs’ rights, Boris Titov, posted on Facebook, “UK out!!! In my opinion, the most important long-term consequence of all this is that the exit will take Europe away from the Anglo-Saxons, that is, from the USA. This is not the independence of Britain from Europe, but the independence of Europe from the USA.”
>

> And perhaps without us they can destroy themselves again, as they
> have over and over since the collapse of Rome. In 1945, Europe was a
> shambles. But for the USA and UK, all of Europe would have suffered
> the same as Eastern Europe.

Common, while they have learned from their mistakes, we have been feeding numerous wars and have been flirting with WWIII.

We can take lessons from them.

[John B.]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2016 05:23:54 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

"NATO has shown an appetite for fresh meat"?

Whatever are you going on about? Do you object to a country forming
alliances with other countries by "by legal means"?

Article I of the treaty states that : " "The Parties undertake, as set
forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any
international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means
in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are
not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from
the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the
purposes of the United Nations."

What do you propose? The U.S. approach? "Bomb the S..t out of them and
they will be our friends".

NATO comprises some 28 countries in Europe. The founding members of
the coalition were:

Belgium
Canada
Denmark
France
Iceland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Norway
Portugal
United Kingdom
United States

Subsequently an additional 16 countries applied for admittance and
were accepted:

Greece (1952)
Turkey (1952)
Federal Republic of Germany (1955)
Spain (1982)
Czech Republic (1999)
Hungary (1999)
Poland (1999)
Bulgaria (2004)
Estonia (2004)
Latvia (2004)
Lithuania (2004)
Romania (2004)
Slovakia (2004)
Slovenia (2004)
Albania (2009)
Croatia (2009)



--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 8:39:12 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Jun 2016 15:54:00 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 5:59:25 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:

> >> On Tue, 28 Jun 2016 07:51:37 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> >> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 11:16:09 PM UTC-4, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> >> >> On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 11:02:24 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> >> >> > On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 18:34:24 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

> >> >> > Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > >On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 8:53:52 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> >> >> > >> On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 16:21:03 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> >> >> > >> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >Now they are collecting the fruits of that expansion. The US/EU grabbed Ukraine but lost the UK. The ideals of peace and cooperation are gone. The British are saying enough to the waves of immigrants. Libya was another big blow.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >Who do you blame?
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> YOU! Makes as much sense as blaming the US. The US had zip to do
> >> >> > >> with ex-communist countries joining the EU. We would have preferred
> >> >> > >> to trade/deal with each directly. The Brits are tired of Brussels
> >> >> > >> telling them what to do. Immigration is but one factor.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >You want the EU for Eastern Europe but not for you. You forced it upon Ukraine.
> >> >> > >

> >> >> > >Obviously YOU are the problem. ?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Makes as much sense as to blame a nation of over 300 million people
> >> >> > and a government comprising close to 1000. Alligator logic.
> >> >>
> >> >> In Europe your views on climate change and bicycling would be viewed as radical.
> >> >>
> >> >> I think they should dismantle Europe and NATO. Bring your bases home.
> >> >
> >> >This Russian got it right:
> >> >
> >> >Russian commissioner for entrepreneurs’ rights, Boris Titov, posted on Facebook, “UK out!!! In my opinion, the most important long-term consequence of all this is that the exit will take Europe away from the Anglo-Saxons, that is, from the USA. This is not the independence of Britain from Europe, but the independence of Europe from the USA.”
> >>
> >> And perhaps without us they can destroy themselves again, as they
> >> have over and over since the collapse of Rome. In 1945, Europe was a
> >> shambles. But for the USA and UK, all of Europe would have suffered
> >> the same as Eastern Europe.
> >
> >Common, while they have learned from their mistakes, we have been feeding numerous wars and have been flirting with WWIII.
> >
> >We can take lessons from them.
>

> DING !!! NEW RECORD !!
>
> That is the stupidest thing you have come up with so far'
> Even stupider than "seizing' lanes.
>
> We rebuilt Europe. We also went to the moon, sent probes to explore
> other planets, put up two space telescopes, and untold satellites, not
> to mention two manned space stations, and shared it all with the rest
> of the world. At the same time we maintained out own high standard of
> living and saved Western Europe from the bear. Were it not for the
> wars you snivel about all Europe would be thrust back into to 7th
> century and speaking Arabic.
>
> Be sure to hild your pinky out whilst sipping your latte'.
> Perhaps sombody will think you European.
>
> Learned from their mistakes? What have the learned? Were they able
> to keep the bear from eating Crimea? What will he eat next?

You've got nothing to do with Europe. Too much corruption and no respect for human rights, namely the right to mobility on foot or bicycle.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 8:39:12 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Jun 2016 15:54:00 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 5:59:25 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:

> >> On Tue, 28 Jun 2016 07:51:37 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> >> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 11:16:09 PM UTC-4, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> >> >> On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 11:02:24 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> >> >> > On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 18:34:24 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

> >> >> > Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > >On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 8:53:52 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> >> >> > >> On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 16:21:03 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> >> >> > >> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >Now they are collecting the fruits of that expansion. The US/EU grabbed Ukraine but lost the UK. The ideals of peace and cooperation are gone. The British are saying enough to the waves of immigrants. Libya was another big blow.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >Who do you blame?
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> YOU! Makes as much sense as blaming the US. The US had zip to do
> >> >> > >> with ex-communist countries joining the EU. We would have preferred
> >> >> > >> to trade/deal with each directly. The Brits are tired of Brussels
> >> >> > >> telling them what to do. Immigration is but one factor.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >You want the EU for Eastern Europe but not for you. You forced it upon Ukraine.
> >> >> > >

[John B.]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2016 07:50:48 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 11:16:09 PM UTC-4, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
>> On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 11:02:24 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
>> > On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 18:34:24 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
>> > Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 8:53:52 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
>> > >> On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 16:21:03 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
>> > >> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> >Now they are collecting the fruits of that expansion. The US/EU grabbed Ukraine but lost the UK. The ideals of peace and cooperation are gone. The British are saying enough to the waves of immigrants. Libya was another big blow.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >Who do you blame?
>> > >>
>> > >> YOU! Makes as much sense as blaming the US. The US had zip to do
>> > >> with ex-communist countries joining the EU. We would have preferred
>> > >> to trade/deal with each directly. The Brits are tired of Brussels
>> > >> telling them what to do. Immigration is but one factor.
>> > >
>> > >You want the EU for Eastern Europe but not for you. You forced it upon Ukraine.
>> > >
>> > >Obviously YOU are the problem. ?
>> >
>> > Makes as much sense as to blame a nation of over 300 million people
>> > and a government comprising close to 1000. Alligator logic.
>>
>> In Europe your views on climate change and bicycling would be viewed as radical.
>>
>> I think they should dismantle Europe and NATO. Bring your bases home.
>
>This Russian got it right:
>
>Russian commissioner for entrepreneurs’ rights, Boris Titov, posted on Facebook, “UK out!!! In my opinion, the most important long-term consequence of all this is that the exit will take Europe away from the Anglo-Saxons, that is, from the USA. This is not the independence of Britain from Europe, but the independence of Europe from the USA.”

That is probably the most stupid statement that you have posted to
date.

The UK comprises some 12% of the population of the EU and contributes
11,341 Euros (Million). Germany contributes more than twice that
amount at 25,315 (M), France's share is 19,573 (M). the facts are that
the UK falls 3rd in rankings and undoubtedly lower in influence.
Remember that France twice bared the UK from joining the EU, and they
finally joined some 6 years after the EU was formed in 1967, after
making a third application.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

But the UK spent the most as percentage of its GDP, and it had a leading role in advancing the interests of the USA in the EU.

It's like the Russian above says.

[John B.]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2016 19:19:52 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Tell us, with then, with perhaps just a tiny amount evidence that you
actually know what you are talking about, exactly what the U.K. did
for the U.S. in the E.U.?

But, before you start, I assume that you do know that the EU "tithe"
is based on 1% of DGP for all members and that in 1984 Margaret
Thatcher negotiated a "deal" whereby G.B.'s share was reduced by some
11 billion, so as a portion of GDP the U.K apparently paid the lowest
of all the countries in the EU.

>It's like the Russian above says.

Of he "says", but he also "lies".

I must say, reality seems to be rather rare in your world.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

I missed this keyword: The UK spends the most IN THE MILITARY as percentage of the GDP than any other European nation (2%).

Our most unconditional ally. They did the lobbying to starve Russia.

[John B.]

On Tue, 28 Jun 2016 22:37:15 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Starve Russia? Good Lord!

The US first shipped food to Russia in 1921. The U.,S. appropriated
some $20,000,000 for relief under the Russian Famine Relief Act of
late 1921. The program employed some 130,000 Russians and fed 10.5
million a day. In 1972 they sent 440 million bushels (nearly 12
million short tons) of wheat to the Soviet Union (USSR) which the USSR
paid for.

Modern Russia has been a factor in the international wheat trade since
1996 at least, and historically exported some 36.4% of the world's
wheat in 1910.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 5:28:06 AM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> On Wednesday, 15 June 2016 18:08:06 UTC+1, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 10:33:17 AM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, 15 June 2016 05:59:50 UTC+1, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, June 14, 2016 at 4:19:25 PM UTC-4, Vito wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:35:12 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble
> > > > > Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >You are feeding fear into the jungle. The gazelles get scared. ?
> > > > >
> > > > > The lion, cheetah and wolf do not eat the smart, energetic gazelles; they prey
> > > > > on the slow and lazy. Perhaps humanity needs aome predators to thin the herd.
> > > >
> > > > You can't rule the jungle by fear. You may for a while but eventually the herd will catch up with the game.
> > > >
> > > > If the herd of buffaloes knew they can overcome the lion...
> > > >
> > > > They think that by sacrificing one more animal, they'll be safer.
> > >
> > > Countries are, morally, rather like wolves. They'll cooperate for the common good, but only once the pack hierarchy is settled.
> > >
> > > That's why we need supra-national organisations, even the EU.
> >
> > If the EU was smart it would remain neutral.
>
> Define "neutrality". If a nation asks to do a trade deal, should the EU refuse if that would upset a different nation, for example. Is that "neutrality" or cowardice?

Did I ever say that about neutrality? That was really smart! ;)

That's cowardice. Now the UK better take advantage of the Russian market. Europe will. France just said it wants no confrontation with Russia.

"Future historians will help us understand the underlying sources of the E.U.’s self-destructive expansion. No doubt they include some combination of ideological faith in the universality of European values, bureaucratic aggrandizement, and pandering to neo-liberal elites. Whatever the causes, the results now threaten the entire European project."

I'd add to the above that there's a was a lot of pandering to America, which after all doesn't care about "European values." NATO is obsolete.

This article really makes a lot of sense:

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/06/25/european-unions-imperial-overreach/

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

I didn't mean that in the literal sense, but you are really starving Venezuela. Where are your ships loaded with food?

Somehow I think Putin is way smarter than Obama and Maduro. Maduro is the president of Venezuela. Not a clever guy.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 5:12:34 AM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> On Saturday, 25 June 2016 00:28:01 UTC+1, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> > First Ukraine, then the wave of immigrants and finally Obama asking the UK to stay in Europe. Why?
> >
> > America wouldn't even qualify to be in the EU. Yeah, it was a nice project before Ukraine. 😐
> >
> >
>
> I've just lived through the EU referendum campaign, and I can tell you the subject of the Ukraine never once came up. Ukraine is not seen here as anything to do with the EU. It's seen as a Russian move to reclaim as much of the old soviet empire as they can. The Ukranians started to look West, and the Russians took steps.
>
> I don't think Obama had any effect one way or the other, though he's far more popular in Europe than over your side of the pond. Every foreign leader on the planet was urging us to remain, he was just one voice amongst many.

The wars in Libya and Syria multiplied the fear of immigration. Who created those wars if not the Anglo-Saxon partners?
>
> There were basically two issues on the leave side. Immigration and sovereignty. But when it gets down to it, most of it was the pissed off with politicians sentiment, a sentiment which is endemic everywhere.
>
> Most British people's real problem with the EU is that it prevents us from controlling immigration. And we're feeling crowded.

Read the link I provided before. It says:

E.U. Expansion and Immigration

Roughly half of immigrants to the U.K. in recent years have come from other E.U. countries, taking advantage of the association’s fundamental commitment to the free movement of people. Their large numbers reflected the enormous expansion of the E.U. since 2004 — and the lure of Britain’s relatively affluent economy to poor workers from newer members like Poland and Romania.

The E.U. — which actually has a commissioner for “enlargement” — has expanded relentlessly without heeding concerns from grassroots constituents of its traditional core members. In 2004, the E.U. absorbed Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia — all low-wage countries with much lower standards of living than the likes of Germany, France or the U.K. In 2007, it also took in Romania and Bulgaria.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 6:35:11 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:36:02 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >The wars in Libya and Syria multiplied the fear of immigration. Who created those wars if not the Anglo-Saxon partners?
>

> The Arabs' own tribal culture of 'me vs my brother; he and I vs our
> cousins; our family vs the rest of the tribe; my tribe against yours;
> ..... ad naseum. Thus it has always been. Add the Sunni/Shii split.
> That is what created these wars.
>
> Euro's tried to fix that when the Ottoman Empire collapsed by
> arbitrarily creating 'countries' that never really existed. Now Arabs
> are back at their traditional 'us against them' mode of operations.
>
> Claiming that Euro's or the US caused these traditional wars
> demonstrates ignorance of history, culture and Islam.

Such tribalism wasn't the source of the conflict. It was the US and the EU promoting the Arab Spring, aiming to depose two strongmen in those countries. That's recent history.

The waves of immigrants came after that. Mind you, those immigrants are not the ones concerning the Brits. They dealt with Eastern Europeans.

[John B.]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 06:54:48 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Venezuela? Why in the world should anyone help Venezuela? After all
they have, perhaps debatably, the largest reserves of oil in the
world. And, you are saying that they can't make a go of it?

Good Lord, until the develop of their petroleum Saudi was just a bunch
of guys roaming around in the sand dunes herding goats. Indonesia
funded rather remarkable progress with oil, Kuwait has a GDP/Capita
higher than France with no other assets than oil.

So, what you are saying is that because someone shoots themselves in
the foot and in spite of having tremendous natural resources,
literally sitting there, waiting to be picked up, that everyone should
weep and cry and say, "OH! You poor thing"?

>Somehow I think Putin is way smarter than Obama and Maduro. Maduro is the president of Venezuela. Not a clever guy.

Of course Putin is the smartest and Obama the dumbest. After all Putin
is the master of the largest country in the world and can't make a go
of it while Obama manages a country about half the size with the
second highest GDP in the world.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Hey, you are helping Cuba. Poor thing. 😐

>
> >Somehow I think Putin is way smarter than Obama and Maduro. Maduro is the president of Venezuela. Not a clever guy.
>
> Of course Putin is the smartest and Obama the dumbest. After all Putin
> is the master of the largest country in the world and can't make a go
> of it while Obama manages a country about half the size with the
> second highest GDP in the world.
> --
> cheers,
>
> John B.

I believe it also has the largest debt. Nothing to be proud about it.

[John B.]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:59:25 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 6:35:11 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:36:02 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
>> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >The wars in Libya and Syria multiplied the fear of immigration. Who created those wars if not the Anglo-Saxon partners?
>>
>> The Arabs' own tribal culture of 'me vs my brother; he and I vs our
>> cousins; our family vs the rest of the tribe; my tribe against yours;
>> ..... ad naseum. Thus it has always been. Add the Sunni/Shii split.
>> That is what created these wars.
>>
>> Euro's tried to fix that when the Ottoman Empire collapsed by
>> arbitrarily creating 'countries' that never really existed. Now Arabs
>> are back at their traditional 'us against them' mode of operations.
>>
>> Claiming that Euro's or the US caused these traditional wars
>> demonstrates ignorance of history, culture and Islam.
>
>Such tribalism wasn't the source of the conflict. It was the US and the EU promoting the Arab Spring, aiming to depose two strongmen in those countries. That's recent history.

Is that so? After all, Egyptian infantry were some of the first to
land in Saudi Arabia to remove Iraqi forces from Kuwait. Which rather
sounds like they were hand in hand with the U.S.

But now you tell us that the U.S. sponsored the revolution against
Mubarak?

In other words, be friends with America and help them in wars and they
will turn on you?

>The waves of immigrants came after that. Mind you, those immigrants are not the ones concerning the Brits. They dealt with Eastern Europeans.

Interesting, but the reality is that data from the countries involved
show quite a different picture:

The following percentages of the population made of foreign born
(immigrants) are: first number = percentage from EU member countries,
second number from non-EU countries.

The U.K. of total immigrants into the U.K. from EU countries = 3.6,
from non EU countries = 7.7; Germany - 4.2 and 7.8; France - 3.3 and
7.8; Sweden - 5.1 and 9.2 and Denmark - 2.8 and 6.3.

Or, in other words, the bulk of the immigration
came from countries outside the EU.

Your forte does not appear to be "reality".
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 10:03:42 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:59:25 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 6:35:11 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> >> On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:36:02 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> >> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >The wars in Libya and Syria multiplied the fear of immigration. Who created those wars if not the Anglo-Saxon partners?
> >>
> >> The Arabs' own tribal culture of 'me vs my brother; he and I vs our
> >> cousins; our family vs the rest of the tribe; my tribe against yours;
> >> ..... ad naseum. Thus it has always been. Add the Sunni/Shii split.
> >> That is what created these wars.
> >>
> >> Euro's tried to fix that when the Ottoman Empire collapsed by
> >> arbitrarily creating 'countries' that never really existed. Now Arabs
> >> are back at their traditional 'us against them' mode of operations.
> >>
> >> Claiming that Euro's or the US caused these traditional wars
> >> demonstrates ignorance of history, culture and Islam.
> >
> >Such tribalism wasn't the source of the conflict. It was the US and the EU promoting the Arab Spring, aiming to depose two strongmen in those countries. That's recent history.
>
> Is that so? After all, Egyptian infantry were some of the first to
> land in Saudi Arabia to remove Iraqi forces from Kuwait. Which rather
> sounds like they were hand in hand with the U.S.
>
> But now you tell us that the U.S. sponsored the revolution against
> Mubarak?
>
> In other words, be friends with America and help them in wars and they
> will turn on you?

It happens all the time. Ask Obama why?

>
> >The waves of immigrants came after that. Mind you, those immigrants are not the ones concerning the Brits. They dealt with Eastern Europeans.
>
> Interesting, but the reality is that data from the countries involved
> show quite a different picture:
>
> The following percentages of the population made of foreign born
> (immigrants) are: first number = percentage from EU member countries,
> second number from non-EU countries.
>
> The U.K. of total immigrants into the U.K. from EU countries = 3.6,
> from non EU countries = 7.7; Germany - 4.2 and 7.8; France - 3.3 and
> 7.8; Sweden - 5.1 and 9.2 and Denmark - 2.8 and 6.3.
>
> Or, in other words, the bulk of the immigration
> came from countries outside the EU.
>
> Your forte does not appear to be "reality".
> --
> cheers,
>
> John B.

The Brits are mad at Poles mostly.

Experts say one explanation for Poles – who have arrived in unprecedented numbers over the past decade – taking British citizenship is that they have become unnerved by the prospect of Britain cracking down on benefits or even leaving the EU altogether.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2933970/Rise-Polish-Brits-Number-given-UK-citizenship-soars-1-200-just-five-years.html

Sorry to burst your bubble. 😉

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Friday, July 1, 2016 at 12:14:52 AM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 21:03:15 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 11:24:49 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:

> >> >Sorry to burst your bubble. ?
> >>
> >> The population of the UK is 64 million. According to your cite there
> >> are 6,000 Poles. That's nine one thousandths of 1%, ie: 0.009% Hard
> >> to believe that led to Brexit. Bubble?? Who has the bubble?
> >
> >Try 800,000. Above is only those becoming citizens.
>
> Then why did you bother posting it? Ok. 1 1/4% 0.0125%.
> Still not grounds for Brexit. Especially when Poles look like Brits,
> are Cristians and easily assimilate.
> >
> >https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_United_Kingdom

Racist? It's ok but the poor feel it's too much competition.

[John B.]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 18:56:09 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

>Hey, you are helping Cuba. Poor thing. ?

>>
>> >Somehow I think Putin is way smarter than Obama and Maduro. Maduro is the president of Venezuela. Not a clever guy.
>>
>> Of course Putin is the smartest and Obama the dumbest. After all Putin
>> is the master of the largest country in the world and can't make a go
>> of it while Obama manages a country about half the size with the
>> second highest GDP in the world.
>> --
>> cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>I believe it also has the largest debt. Nothing to be proud about it.

Ah yes. Public debt. You are perfectly correct the U.S. has the
highest public debt in the world. In dollars.

On the other hand, it is 114% of GDP, lower than the EU countries, and
in fact the next lower country is Zimbabwe at 103%. As a dollar and
cents matter the U.S.'s public debt is $60,340/capita. In contrast
Germany is $68,720, France - $86,317, Sweden - $91,487, Denmark -
$101,084, the U.K. - $146,244 and Holland - $226,503.

So financially the U.S. is far better off than any of the countries in
the EU, and, I would guess, although I can't find the data, of the EU
as an entirety.

Another thing you might take notice of, is that for an ongoing
business, which a country essentially is, debt, per se, is
meaningless. What is important is what is the money used for. If, as
in the case of the debt is used to promote the economy, or business,
than it is actually beneficial and in fact most businesses are fueled
by debt.

General Motors, for example, as of 31 Dec 15, had current liabilities
(debts) of $71,466,000,000 (OH! MY GOD!) and total Revenue(income) of
$152,356,000,000 (BIG SMILE).

--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

It may just be that much of that debt goes to feed war and corruption instead of, say, fast trains and alternative transportation --the bicycle for example.

[John B.]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 19:22:54 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

>Sorry to burst your bubble. ?

Hmmm... "unprecedented numbers"?

Lets see... "As of 2014, 790,000 people born in Poland were estimated
to be resident in the UK, and there is a wider population of British
Poles, including the descendants of over 200,000 immigrants who
settled in the UK after World War II.

Shocking; Shocking I say!

And of course we have the Indians:
"According to the 2001 UK Census, 1,053,411 Britons had full Indian
ethnicity... In the nine-year period between 2001 and 2010, the number
of Indian-born people in the UK has increased in size by 43% from
467,634 to around 669,000 (an increase of over 200,000)."

A bit more than the Poles.

And the Muslims:
the United Kingdom Census 2011 gives the UK Muslim population in 2011
as ~2,706,066...

Hoeee.. a whole bunch of them.

Seems sort of strange that them Britisher's selected only the Poles to
complain about, doesn't it?
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 21:34:50 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

A quote from a British news paper:

"The Polish have been settling here since the war, impressing us with
their work ethic and desire to integrate. No wonder their language is
the most widely spoken after English...

The ability of Poles to integrate seems to be linked to the reason
many of them come to Britain in the first place, "explains Robert
Szaniawski of the Polish Embassy in London," the main factor that
draws Poles to the UK...

Poles have a reputation for being hard workers, especially in the
manual labour sector. Adam Zamoyski, a British historian descended
from a Polish noble family, says Poles are brilliant workers...

But with such mass immigration comes inevitable tension. Many British
workers blame the steady flow of cheap, cash-in-hand Polish labourers
for keeping them out of jobs...

When the war ended, Churchill vowed that the British would never
forget the debt they owe to the Polish and pledged citizenship and
freedom of the British empire for all. "

So essentially the slack jawed layabout Britisher is upset because a
some stupid Pole comes in and works his butt off and, strange as it
may seem, the Boss prefers the Pole?

Amazing! Positively Amazing.

--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

It almost sounds like Trump and the Mexicans. And people --red necks and others-- love to hear that.

Is that an Anglo-Saxon issue?

[John B.]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 23:39:51 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Yup, sounds like a whole lot of money.. Now tell me how many people
are in the military, something like 1,477,896 I read. And there are
about 720,000 direct civilian employees. About 2,2 million combined.

And then, of course, there are the approximately 3.5 million jobs in
the aero-space and defense industry. So that is nearly 6 million
people employed either in the military or by those activities that
support the military.

Then we have the 5.5 billion dollars in federal taxes that the defense
industry pays, and the 1.7 billion in local taxes. and the 37.8
billion in wages. And of course the personal income tax paid by these
employees.

To get a little personnel, in Florida some 233 million dollars are
paid in salaries, 860 million in pensions, 5.7 billion in consumable
goods, 119,713 jobs, and a capital investments of ~1.0 billion.

And I agree with you. Too much monies is being spent, so tomorrow
we'll just put a stop to it.

Monday there will be more then 6 million added to the unemployed
ranks. As of May 2016 the department of labor said that there were
7,436,000 unemployed so your scheme will nearly double the number of
unemployed in the U.S.

Great plan!
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 00:21:03 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

If you listen to Trump (or Clinton) you are hearing a politician
speaking, and what is a politician's main priority? Why to get
elected, of course.

Do you believe that any politician tells the truth to the exclusion of
all else? If you do then you obviously are either (1) too young to
know anything, or (2) a very foolish person.

If Trump thought that slicing Florida off at Tallahassee and setting
the whole state adrift would get him votes I'm sure that is what he
would be saying.

Re Mexicans: Go out west to where much of the vegetables in the US are
grown and ask those farmers about Mexicans and they will tell you
that they can't get along without them.

Something like 40 years ago it was tried. At the time a lot of
Mexicans had some sort of work permit, they came across during
harvest, and went back after the harvest was over. Someone, who
obviously didn't know what he was doing, got the idea that it was bad
finances to pay foreigners to pick garlic when we had plenty of people
without jobs right here at home that could do it.

So, no Mexicans, "we gonna hire them po' folks".

I may have my numbers a bit off but lets say that unemployment was
five dollars a day. The Growers were paying Mexicans six dollars a
day. The first day of the New Deal they had thousands of unemployed
out in the fields, the next day that had about half that many and buy
the third day they had so few that they had to run out and get the
Mexicans back.

The difference to the unemployed was $1.00 a day and picking crops is
damned hard work, out there in the sun all day. Far better to stay
home, in the shade and smoke a little dope and watch the sun go down.

>Is that an Anglo-Saxon issue?

I don't know. I suspect it is Labour against the immigrants who will
work.

--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Remember the "peace dividend" after the fall of the USSR? It was quickly forgotten because we needed to feed the military-industrial complex. We need to destroy stuff then rebuild it. That's good for the economy. Crime is good for the prison industry. Diabetes is good for the medical industry. Katrina was good for the economy. Bicycling... is not good for the economy. That's why we are ignored.

Corruption is bad for people but good for the economy. You think Germany loves immigrants? Think again. A whole industry was created to cater to them. I call it the "money jungle" and it's bad for people.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/1/2016 7:33 PM, John B. wrote:
> Now tell me how many people
> are in the military, something like 1,477,896 I read. And there are
> about 720,000 direct civilian employees. About 2,2 million combined.
>
> And then, of course, there are the approximately 3.5 million jobs in
> the aero-space and defense industry. So that is nearly 6 million
> people employed either in the military or by those activities that
> support the military.
>
> Then we have the 5.5 billion dollars in federal taxes that the defense
> industry pays, and the 1.7 billion in local taxes. and the 37.8
> billion in wages. And of course the personal income tax paid by these
> employees.
>
> To get a little personnel, in Florida some 233 million dollars are
> paid in salaries, 860 million in pensions, 5.7 billion in consumable
> goods, 119,713 jobs, and a capital investments of ~1.0 billion.
>
> And I agree with you. Too much monies is being spent, so tomorrow
> we'll just put a stop to it.
>
> Monday there will be more then 6 million added to the unemployed
> ranks. As of May 2016 the department of labor said that there were
> 7,436,000 unemployed so your scheme will nearly double the number of
> unemployed in the U.S.
>
> Great plan!

Eisenhower warned us to beware the military-industrial complex.
Obviously, we didn't listen well enough. So now that they receive over
half of our tax payments, they're so deeply entrenched that we can't cut
back.

Supposedly, our military spending is not only the biggest, it's bigger
than the next twenty nations combined. How is that necessary or smart?
What in hell is our objective?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 07-02-2016 04:57, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> Eisenhower warned us to beware the military-industrial complex.
> Obviously, we didn't listen well enough. So now that they receive over
> half of our tax payments, they're so deeply entrenched that we can't cut
> back.

And how many IRS employees will be out of work if we simplify the tax
code? Heck, even though computers do 90% of the work, it still takes
six weeks or more to get a refund.

--
Wes Groleau

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 9:33:10 AM UTC-4, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> On Friday, July 1, 2016 at 10:38:30 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> > Your trouble is that when people tell you they want a job you believe
> > them. They do want a job, with insurance, paycheck and all the perks.
> > But they do not want to work.
> >
> > Do you work???
>
> I'm at the moment an entrepreneur. I know I can sell my products and help the world, all at once.
>
> http://zazzle.com/bananarevolutiongear
>
> No socialism, no struggle, no rat race. My ideas are spreading fast.

They must because a crisis of some sort is coming. Too much evil in the world. The dinosaurs gotta go. Religion must go too. If we provide them psychiatric care perhaps they will become normal.

Here's what they predict as a result of the Brexit vote:

“Life savings will be vaporized by 80%. The stock market will plummet by 60%. Real estate will fall by 50%,” he warned. “Millions of seniors will go from luxurious retirement communities to government-sponsored nursing homes as Social Security and Medicare get slashed.”

I'm praying for it. That's what you want too. Half of the world population will ride bicycle or die. ;)

[John B.]

On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 17:33:15 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

I've just explained to you. You simply cannot get along with out the
defense department. If it wasn't for the defense business there would
be twice as many unemployed and many states would either have to
tighten their belts of raise taxes.

Have a look at what is happening in S. California. The defense
business is cutting back and small businesses are disappearing
Quote from one site: "Judged by sheer volume, the state of California
has seen - and will continue to see - more brick-and-mortar retail
store location Going Out of Business sales than any other state"

>Corruption is bad for people but good for the economy. You think Germany loves immigrants? Think again. A whole industry was created to cater to them. I call it the "money jungle" and it's bad for people.

Why do you say that corruption is bad for the people? I've known some
very wealthy people who are on the game. Heck 'mericans even elected
Spiro Agnew to the vice presidency and he may well have been the most
corrupt governor that Maryland ever had.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, without looking, who, or what country has engaged in the most
wars since 1945?

Or, what country employs some 6 million in a "Defense Ministry".

Or, for that matter, what was the last truly defensive war that the
U.S. engaged in?
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

And in reality:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-3671313/Stock-market-winners-losers-Brexit.html#ixzz4DJFRUs00

The recovery this week for the FTSE 100 index has been widely covered,
and the blue-chip index with its global companies that stand to
benefit from a cheaper pound is 7 per cent ahead of where it started
the week 3.5 per cent higher than its pre-referendum close.

Note the words "widely covered".

Strange that you didn't notice.

--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

It seems every other civilized nation is launching fast trains or making something that, though still feeding corruption, improves the quality of life for all. We are just patching up streets while our sidewalks are totally dysfunctional.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 9:12:59 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Jul 2016 15:17:00 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 6:04:54 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> >> On Sat, 2 Jul 2016 10:42:57 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> >> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 11:16:06 AM UTC-4, vito wrote:

> >> >> On Sat, 2 Jul 2016 06:33:06 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> >> >> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Friday, July 1, 2016 at 10:38:30 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> >> >> >> Your trouble is that when people tell you they want a job you believe
> >> >> >> them. They do want a job, with insurance, paycheck and all the perks.
> >> >> >> But they do not want to work.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Do you work???
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I'm at the moment an entrepreneur. I know I can sell my products and help the world, all at once.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >http://zazzle.com/bananarevolutiongear
> >> >> >
> >> >> >No socialism, no struggle, no rat race. My ideas are spreading fast.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >

> >> >> Good luck. How are you living in the mean time?
> >> >
> >> >Same as you.
> >>
> >> On your savings and investments??
> >
> >Rich uncle! ?
>
> I lack one. I began contributing to SS at 13 and didn't retire until
> 69, usually paying the max during those years - 8% + another 8% by my
> employers plus more for Medicare. As a result I get a pension but I'd
> hardly call the source a rich uncle. It was a forced savings. In
> addidtion I paid off a house, a car, and several motorcycles and
> saved over $200,000. Are you the same?

I'm experimenting with the frugal life. No needs whatsoever, just playing "eccentric penniless."

I have to prove my point that we can take any nation --say Haiti-- and give them a quality of life that is actually absent here. Thus we can stop immigration. It's not the same plan Trump got, namely the wall.

Of course, the bike is the vehicle of liberation.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 1:33:35 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 08:17:11 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

> Your experiment isn't new - it has been tried countless times before.
> The Hippie communes come to mind. But all have one thing in common -
> an external source of income that was ultimately taken from somebody
> else. Without that income they starve.
>
> Haiti and the DR share an island. The DR is far wealthier than Haiti.
> Why? Both were Euro plantations worked by African slaves. When
> France declared Haiti's slaves free they murdered all the whites then
> all the mulattos. Not a single whit or person of mixed blood was left
> alive in Haiti. This was a major reason the US south resisted ending
> slavery even though it was no longer economical. Next door in the DR
> there was no such upheaval. Draw your own conclusions.

That's funny as the blacks and mulattoes have always been two distinct classes. Did the mulattoes rise after been wiped out?

Anyway, after having lived in one of the most affluent places in the world --Miami Beach-- I can tell you that ain't heaven. It's hell itself. We still own an apartment there and I don't want to visit. NO PLACE FOR BICYCLES, NO PARKING SPACE, THE RAT RACE RAGING ON, THE HOMELESS OCCUPYING THE PARKS, CORRUPTION GALORE, THE CORRUPT ELDERLY CONTROLLING THE POLITICAL GAME, TREE KILLERS, NEVER-ENDING CONSTRUCTION, ETC, ETC.

Quality of life and wealth are not always proportional. What is the good life for the lion is not for the monkey.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

The problem with Haiti, or any other place in the third world world, is Jesus. In other words if you don't control religion, religion controls you. That's a big issue in America too.

Perhaps a place such as Congo is perfect for the revolution.

[John B.]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 08:05:59 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Does it? I ask as just recently the Thai's have turned down a Chinese
proposal to build a high speed rail link with Cambodia, I believe. the
Thai's, who have had conventional rail links since the 1890's, decided
was not cost efficient.

You seem to have a habit of labeling things as "corruption". Do you
have any proof of your accusations? Or should we accept hat this is
just a word that you use to describe that you don't approve of,
despite your total lack of knowledge, or proof.

You say "dysfunctional sidewalks" but the computer shows a different
story, See below:
https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g34439-d108858-i165566996-Ocean_Drive-Miami_Beach_Florida.html
https://www.google.co.th/search?q=sidewalks+in+Miami+beach&biw=1600&bih=698&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEr7XoutjNAhWDqI8KHXpjCb8QsAQIHg

Once might get an impression that you actually have no knowledge of
what you post.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 08:32:24 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

I see. Would you care to enlighten us about your experiments with the
frugal life? Is this how you describe the time that your Mommy cut off
your allowance?

>I have to prove my point that we can take any nation --say Haiti-- and give them a quality of life that is actually absent here. Thus we can stop immigration. It's not the same plan Trump got, namely the wall.

You obviously don't pay any taxes, or have any sense for that matter.
Why would anyone take the bother to give Haiti, or any other country
for that matter, anything?

>Of course, the bike is the vehicle of liberation.

How can that be possible? You have previously described your fear and
terror at riding a bicycle. Repeatedly.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 13:09:19 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Gee, you just keep exposing your lack of knowledge over and over and
over again.

Your description of France declaring Haiti's slaves free isn't exactly
correct, assuming of course, that you are referring to first elected
Assembly of the First French Republic (1792-1804), which on the 4th of
February 1794, abolished slavery by law in France and all its colonies
and granted civil and political rights to all black men in the
colonies.

It sounds pretty wonderful, until you understand that the "Slave
Revolution" in Haiti actually started in 1791 and by 1792 the slaves
controlled a third of the country and in the hope of calming things
down the French granted civil and political rights to free men of
color in the colonies. Note that "free men of color" as this
"freedom"did not apply to slaves.

And even after the revolution Haiti wasn't exactly "free" as the de
facto military leader of the revolution, Toussaint Louverture, after a
certain amount of local turmoil gained complete domination and
declared himself "Governor for Life".

And even today, more than 200 years later, Haiti is actually not free,
in the sense the word is used in most other countries.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 13:54:17 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

The Congo? If a total lack of religion is your aim you might want to
know that the Congo is 50%, or more, Christian. The Religion was first
preached in 1491.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

I have plenty of evidence in the form of photos. It is said a picture is worth a thousand words.

If my accusations were wrong people wouldn't accept my fliers. This is common knowledge here. One particular causeway into the beach is permanently under construction.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Well, I pack my bike with popcorn and water and head for the beach. "Life's a beach," right? (Not the same beach I mentioned before. A beach where they have nothing to hide.)

>
> >I have to prove my point that we can take any nation --say Haiti-- and give them a quality of life that is actually absent here. Thus we can stop immigration. It's not the same plan Trump got, namely the wall.
>
> You obviously don't pay any taxes, or have any sense for that matter.
> Why would anyone take the bother to give Haiti, or any other country
> for that matter, anything?

Oh no, Haiti we will build from scratch. Coconut trees and fresh fish from the ocean. Nice mellow Haitian music.

Life as comandante should be nice.

>
> >Of course, the bike is the vehicle of liberation.
>
> How can that be possible? You have previously described your fear and
> terror at riding a bicycle. Repeatedly.
> --
> cheers,
>
> John B.

Heroes are heroes, and they often suffer from PTSD. ;)

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

And United States is free? Free from the UK it is, but nothing free in the land of the free. Actually you can get free healthcare in the UK easier than in America.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 5:49:10 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 13:55:31 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Perhaps a place such as Congo is perfect for the revolution.
>

> Events in the Congo say otherwise.

Life in places such as Haiti and Congo is worth nothing. Few will hesitate to change the system.

And we have put together the best revolution to hit the planet in the last 65 million years.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Sunday, July 3, 2016 at 10:16:15 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 18:09:19 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Life in places such as Haiti and Congo is worth nothing. Few will hesitate to change the system.
>

> You will be shocked at how untrue that is. The vast majority have a
> vestedinterest in the status quo - just like here.

I think you only need a powerful flier and some nice music. These Haitians really got the best music in the world. Better than salsa, as good as calypso and reggae.

> >
> >And we have put together the best revolution to hit the planet in the last 65 million years.
>

> The world is waiting to see it. Tomarrow would be nice.

The dinosaurs should have seen that coming. Of course, they were too stupid.

[John B.]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 17:54:24 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

No, the U.K. has the National Health Service that does give free
medical are to those residing in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern
Island and "in a 2014 report ranking developed-country healthcare
systems, the United Kingdom was ranked the best healthcare system in
the world overall."

Care to rate the U.S.?

But you are free in the U.S. You can live anywhere you want to, you
can worship any god that you want to, you can work anywhere you want,
you can travel anywhere you want. You can even ride a bicycle where
you want. I believe that Frank has ridden all the way across the U.S.
You could too.

O.K., your mother probably won't give you as big an allowance as you
would like but you can easily go to work to supplement it. And even
get free schooling up to grade 12 (is it) and your government will
even loan you money to collage.

You have aid to unwed mothers, food stamps, unemployment pay, all
kinds of goodies... and you claim that you are not free?

Good Lord, not only are you free but your government gives you stuff.
And, not only do they give you stuff the even give you a chance to
make a whole bunch of money.

When he was 16, Jan Koum emigrated from Ukraine to California with his
mother. They settled in a small Mountain View apartment, paid for with
government assistance. Today he is worth $7.6 billion.

Igor Olenicoff and his family arrived with $800 and four suitcases,
only to be robbed.

Born in Pakistan, Shahid Khan came to the U.S. at 16 and his first job
was as a dishwasher.
Moscow-born Sergey Brin, the Google cofounder, has a net worth of
$31 billion.

Here's the list of the top earners for 2014:

Sergey Brin, Russia, $31 billion
George Soros, Hungary, $24 billion
Len Blavatnik, Ukraine, $21.5 billion
Rupert Murdoch, Australia, $14.2 billion
Patrick Soon-Shiong, South Africa, $12 billion
Elon Musk, South Africa, $10.3 billion
Thomas Peterffy, Hungary, $9.1 billion
Pierre Omidyar, France, $8.2 billion
Jan Koum, Ukraine, $7.6 billion
Do Won and Jin Sook Chang, Korea, $5.2 billion
David Sun, Taiwan, $4.8 billion
John Tu, China, $4.8 billion
Shahid Khan, Pakistan, $4.5 billion
Jeffrey Skoll, Canada, $3.8 billion
Steven Udvar-Hazy, Hungary, $3.7 billion
Isaac Perlmutter, Israel, $3.5 billion
Haim Saban, Egypt, $3.4 billion
Igor Olenicoff, Russia, $3.3 billion
Roger Wang, China, $3.3 billion
Jorge Perez, Argentina, $3.1 billion
Peggy and Andrew Cherng, Burma and China, $3 billion
Tom Gores, Israel, $3 billion
Min Kao, Taiwan, $2.9 billion
Bharat Desai, Kenya, $2.5 billion
Victor Fung, Hong Kong, $2.5 billion
Michael Moritz, U.K., $2.5 billion
Romesh T. Wadhwani, India, $2.5 billion
John Kapoor, India, $2.4 billion
Mortimer Zuckerman, Canada, $2.4 billion
John Catsimatidis, Greece, $2.3 billion
Peter Thiel, Germany, $2.2 billion
Alec Gores, Israel, $2.1 billion
Alexander Knaster, Russia, $2.1 billion
Douglas Leone, Italy, $2.1 billion
C. Dean Metropoulos, Greece, $2.1 billion
Fayez Sarofim, Egypt, $2.1 billion
John Farber, Romania, $2 billion
Jerry Yang, Taiwan, $2 billion
Kavitark Ram Shriram, India, $1.9 billion
Marc Lasry, Morocco, $1.8 billion
Vinod Khosla , India, $1.7 billion

And you whine and complain.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 17:51:14 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

So? The Frugal life is laying on the beach eating popcorn? And then
returning home to a lovely three course meal?

Well, I suppose... as you "almost starved" with nothing but popcorn to
eat.

>> >I have to prove my point that we can take any nation --say Haiti-- and give them a quality of life that is actually absent here. Thus we can stop immigration. It's not the same plan Trump got, namely the wall.
>>
>> You obviously don't pay any taxes, or have any sense for that matter.
>> Why would anyone take the bother to give Haiti, or any other country
>> for that matter, anything?
>
>Oh no, Haiti we will build from scratch. Coconut trees and fresh fish from the ocean. Nice mellow Haitian music.

When? Jean-Bertrand Aristide was the first democratically elected
president the 90-91 election and ousted by a coup. when the coup
failed he returned again in then again from 1994 to 1996 and from
2001 to 2004, until the "The Group of 184" staged another coup and he
was out again. Think of it, Haiti became a free nation in
189-something and the first democratically elected president was
elected in 1991, a hundred years later. This sounds like a real
paradise.

Is the best you can do?

>
>Life as comandante should be nice.
>>
>> >Of course, the bike is the vehicle of liberation.
>>
>> How can that be possible? You have previously described your fear and
>> terror at riding a bicycle. Repeatedly.
>> --
>> cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Heroes are heroes, and they often suffer from PTSD. ;)

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2016 17:44:16 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

I see. And exactly what are the details behind "permanently under
construction? How many year has it been under construction? What was
the original budget? Who, how, when was the budget increased or
decreased? Who paid the money, who got the money?

Details, details.

Libel - a false and malicious publication printed for the purpose of
defaming a living person

Slander - words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another

If you are handing out printed matter, that can be construed as libel,
unless you can prove it is true.

So supposing someone comes along and sues you for libel. Lets hear
your proof that it is the truth.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

https://twitter.com/tibetan_monkey/status/750180585331494912

Now tell me why the West says Ukraine was particularly corrupt before the coup?

We've got the best democracy money can buy. 😉

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

The chain is only as strong as the weakest link. NATO tries to swallow any country, rich or poor, big or small. They don't discriminate.

First it was Ukraine. Now they want Serbia.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

99% of Americans are either afraid to walk and ride a bike in their community or have too little space.

I have a single route that is fairly safe or should say stress free. Tame traffic. It's a jungle out there. 👎

[John B.]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2016 21:32:42 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Yes, I see that. An old folks home that you say took years to build.

This is proof? Of what?

Now tell us when it was actually started and when completed. What was
the budget? Did they run out of money? Was it necessary to find
additional funds? Was this done by union labor? Was the designed
changed? Did it require any sort of planning or building permits,
approval, etc. Was there opposition to the plan of construction>

As for your other pretty pictures they are equally informative. A
sidewalk ends.... My God! Are you implying that sidewalks never end?
That they just go on for ever and ever? You didn't like the look of a
traffic island. So what? Who are you to say anything about traffic
islands?

I short you are short on facts and long on gossip.

Oh yes, You also might be interested in the fact that monkeys,
practically Tibetan monkeys seldom, if ever, eat bananas in the
wild... bananas don't grow in Tibet, for one thing and the silly
Tibetan monkeys can't afford to have them shipped in.

So even your theme song is incorrect.

>Now tell me why the West says Ukraine was particularly corrupt before the coup?

I can't speak for the Ukraine but I've know a number of people that
have lived in European Communist countries and they tell me that what
you call "corruption" was rampart. In Russia it was broadly referred
to as "Blat" which covered a range of things but essentially "tit for
tat", whether money, a favor, I'll call my friend.

A good friend who was born and raised in Hungary tells me that yes
medical care was free under the communists but unless you wanted to
sit in the clinic's waiting room all day and possibly be told to come
back tomorrow you had to pay.

He retired to Hungary after the communists were gone and tells me that
exactly the same thing exists. Either pay, or sit and sit and sit.

I would guess that just as in Hungary it was corrupt in the Ukraine
under communism and hasn't changed.

>We've got the best democracy money can buy. ?

How do you think "democracy" works? Just like the Russian "blat",
"I'll do something for you if you elect me". How could it be
different?
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2016 21:59:29 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

You seem rather amazingly uninformed. NATO - the North Atlantic Treaty
Organization, is a military organization. Now tell us, just how do
they swallow a country? Do you mean that they invade the country and
gain control of it? Do you think that NATO owns and controls the U.K.,
The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, and all those other countries?
They just invaded them and now they all are controlled by NATO?

>First it was Ukraine. Now they want Serbia.

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2016 22:46:40 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

My goodness but Americans, or to be accurate, Usians, apparently are a
pretty stupid people.

According to your statistics: The U.S. population was some 321,442,019
in 2015, one percent of that is about 3.2 million and the Bicycle
Dealers Association tell us that they sold 17.4 million bicycles that
year.

So apparently some 15 million folks, something like 5% of the
population, bought a bike and never rode it.

Frankly I had never realized that. But if you say so I suppose it must
be true.

>I have a single route that is fairly safe or should say stress free. Tame traffic. It's a jungle out there. ?

The fact that you are a professed coward is not really a traffic
statistic.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

I hate to tell you that Americans are professed cowards as well. Some fraction of 1% share the road with traffic for something as simple as biking in their communities. Most ride on sidewalks. Others ride in packs for no reason other than pleasure.

You are an idiot who's out of touch. Try calming traffic before people come out.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Hey Mr Idiot, you invaded Germany and Japan. They are still occupied nations.

[John B.]

On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 00:50:24 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Oh? When was that? After the Japanese declared war on the U.S. on 8
Dec 1941? Or after Germany declared war on the U.S. on 11 Dec 1941?

Occupied nations? How so? You mean the U.S. bases in Japan that, the
U.S. uses to defend the Japanese Islands from attack, in accordance
with the treaty between the Japanese and the U.S. which, it might be
mentioned, saved the Japanese millions, perhaps billions of dollars
since they never had to spend the money to develop a large military
force to protect themselves?

The U.S. troops stationed in Germany? I don't know, I was never in
Europe.

But why mention only Japan and Germany? The U.S. has a military
presence in at least 26 countries around the world, and probably more.
Did we invade all of them also?
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

The policy of the carrot and the stick is very effective.

Few countries like Russia and Iran ever refuse to fear the stick, and then they are punished with sanctions. All the countries in Europe joined the pack. A few raise a timid voice of protest.

Ukraine paid the ultimate price. That's a revolution/coup designed to have the effect of an invasion: Regime change.

And, of course, there's Iraq and Afghanistan. The freedom fighters became terrorists in a generation, thanks to the propaganda machine. Do you also deny massive corruption in those places?

[John B.]

On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 00:47:46 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

I see, so there are in the neighborhood of, actually more according to
you, that, about 99+ percent of all those folks who spent 27.5 million
dollars buying bicycles and never rode them. Funny, you know, the
statistics I read say that in 2015 some 66.7 Usians said at they had
ridden during the past year.

Are you sure that you have your stories straight?

But if I have erroneous data please point me at the real, correct,
figures.

P.S. In the more learned members of the group do not accept numbers
copied off the wall in a public toilet even if they were in the first
cubical on the left are not acceptable proof of anything. No matter
what they say what Suzy will do for five dollars.

Well, except to demonstrate the stupidity of those who quotes them.

>You are an idiot who's out of touch. Try calming traffic before people come out.

I see. And you are the only one that knows about traffic?

Well, I ride in Bangkok, Thailand where traffic looks like this:
http://tinyurl.com/hmqznub
or
http://tinyurl.com/hah5hzv

and you sit there supposing that you, and only you, know anything
about traffic?

What a joke.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Yes. And I have quite a few friends who have done the same. None of us
would have been able to do that - or most other pleasant rides we do -
if we waited for the dream worlds of some bike advocates.

>> You could too.
>>
>
> 99% of Americans are either afraid to walk and ride a bike in their community or have too little space.

"Too little space"? A bicyclist requires roughly three feet of space,
plus a little extra to allow for wobbling. Every road in America has
more than that amount of space.

Most Americans are too timid to use the rights to the road already
guaranteed by law. That's their own fault.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Don't play stupid. Everything makes sense. They buy a bicycle, ride it a few times, then get bored of being alone out there, or simply get scared of traffic. I was riding the other day on a sharrow lane (I assume you know what it is) and this driver in a fancy Audi couldn't help himself and blasted the horn at me (that means intimidation in jungle language). There was another lane but he was too important or I was too insignificant.

Stuff like that tends to ruin my day because I start hating humanity. Nobody is there for me. If I had a hand grenade I'd throw it but I rather not. Just an animal instinct. People like that need to be controlled or deserve to die. That's why I don't a carry a weapon. Then I come to these distinguished forums and blast the system, Jesus, democracy, and everything that perpetuates the law of the jungle. It is here that I challenge the finest minds --yeah, that's you folks-- to give me an straight answer. Is this democracy or hypocrisy? Gays are accepted for their gayness but cyclists are no more than a monkey. May I say pedestrians are the same? Oh yeah, not having a car in America requires a lot of inner strength. Women won't even date you. Well, if that is a consolation, gays will surely accept you. They poisoned Socrates for telling the truth. Democracy can be a piece of shit, folks.

>
> But if I have erroneous data please point me at the real, correct,
> figures.
>
> P.S. In the more learned members of the group do not accept numbers
> copied off the wall in a public toilet even if they were in the first
> cubical on the left are not acceptable proof of anything. No matter
> what they say what Suzy will do for five dollars.
>
> Well, except to demonstrate the stupidity of those who quotes them.

There are few proud cyclists in America. They are survivors or members of elite packs --those in lycra suits-- where they enjoy greater safety. And yet, you see them with their bikes strapped to the SUV. In the case of Miami they go to Key Biscayne to escape the worst of the jungle and ride far and wide --within that island. There are fewer cyclists in Miami --proud cyclists-- than there are alligators. What we have in this town is too many predators, many of them imported such as the Burmese python.

That's the way it is.

>
> >You are an idiot who's out of touch. Try calming traffic before people come out.
>
> I see. And you are the only one that knows about traffic?
>
> Well, I ride in Bangkok, Thailand where traffic looks like this:
> http://tinyurl.com/hmqznub
> or
> http://tinyurl.com/hah5hzv
>
> and you sit there supposing that you, and only you, know anything
> about traffic?
>
> What a joke.

Nobody would be surprised to find out that traffic is chaotic in Bangkok, but few really know that American cities and highways are ruled by fear, bullying and size. If you are hit by an SUV, you are dead meat. Europeans would be shocked to know that the passing lane doesn't exist. Civilized people would be asking why they don't implement speed cameras to tame traffic.

How about planting undercover cups in bicycles catching the bullies? I guess we are going to have to wait for the revolution. ;)

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

I don't mean space as in "3 feet." I meant "space to ride far and wide." And I don't care about the 3 feet law implemented in some states, including where I live. Nobody is ever going to measure the 3 feet. That's the most ridiculous law I've ever seen. I don't want a crappy bike lane either. I want a full lane. Take the lane and over my dead body. The issue is we need many people to join us. That's the revolution.

If you live in another state where the local conditions are good, your wisdom doesn't apply here. If you went across the country, you deserve a medal. I'm sure it was more dangerous than doing a tour in Afghanistan.

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 07-05-2016 06:46, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> 99% of Americans are either afraid to walk and ride a bike in their community or have too little space.

I call B.S. Neither of us knows how many are scared, but I'm not afraid
to guess:

40% too scared
40% too lazy
15% too busy
===
95% total, leaving five percent human-powered

Again, just guessing, but likely closer to the truth than 99% scared

--
Wes Groleau

[W. Wesley Groleau]

On 07-04-2016 00:45, John B. wrote:
> Once might get an impression that you actually have no knowledge of
> what you post.

I get no impression that he has any knowledge of reality.
Time to stop wasting bandwidth on him.

--
Wes Groleau

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Tell me where you get 5% number. I hear it's more like 1% or less.

If they put a fucking bike counter like in Denmark at least we would have an idea. I kind of remember you posted it.

[John B.]

On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 03:34:56 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Oh, you mean like first stomping the Japanese into the ground and than
boosting them up to be the world's largest auto maker.

What a bunch of bastards we must be.

>Few countries like Russia and Iran ever refuse to fear the stick, and then they are punished with sanctions. All the countries in Europe joined the pack. A few raise a timid voice of protest.

Are you completely sane? At the end of WW II Russia literally took
over all of Eastern Europe. Are you naive enough to believed that this
was done with loving kindness?

>Ukraine paid the ultimate price. That's a revolution/coup designed to have the effect of an invasion: Regime change.
>
>And, of course, there's Iraq and Afghanistan. The freedom fighters became terrorists in a generation, thanks to the propaganda machine. Do you also deny massive corruption in those places?

You really don't know much about the even the Near East. The Afghans
became terrorists. Utter drivel.

The bulk of the Afghans are tribesmen and poor peasants, and the poppy
fields are the largest source of income they have. They have been
fighting someone as far back as history records them. They fought
Alexander (and got beat, the only time) and since have fought the
English, twice I believe, and won both times. They fought the Russians
and beat them and in between times they fight each other. If you ask
an Afghan what he is he doesn't say "I am an Afghan", Nope, he
identifies himself by what tribe or clan he belongs to. They don't
even all speak the same language.

The Iraqis, those lovable people. Some years before the U.S. Iraq war
someone asked a wealthy Iraqi living in England about the "Iraqi
Opposition" he replied, "There isn't any. Saddam killed them all".
They even used poison gas on some of their less savory inhabitants.

Certainly a people that one should admire.


--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 08:24:13 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, July 5, 2016 at 7:00:22 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 00:47:46 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
>> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >I hate to tell you that Americans are professed cowards as well. Some fraction of 1% share the road with traffic for something as simple as biking in their communities. Most ride on sidewalks. Others ride in packs for no reason other than pleasure.
>>
>> I see, so there are in the neighborhood of, actually more according to
>> you, that, about 99+ percent of all those folks who spent 27.5 million
>> dollars buying bicycles and never rode them. Funny, you know, the
>> statistics I read say that in 2015 some 66.7 Usians said at they had
>> ridden during the past year.
>>
>> Are you sure that you have your stories straight?
>
>Don't play stupid. Everything makes sense. They buy a bicycle, ride it a few times, then get bored of being alone out there, or simply get scared of traffic. I was riding the other day on a sharrow lane (I assume you know what it is) and this driver in a fancy Audi couldn't help himself and blasted the horn at me (that means intimidation in jungle language). There was another lane but he was too important or I was too insignificant.

Ok, I'm sure that you are correct.... at least in your own fanaticize,
but I do find some puzzling things.

Frank has been riding a bicycle on the streets and roads since the
1970's. True he is an old man but still 40 years of riding a bike back
and forth, back and forth?

James, though he does live in a foreign (to us) country, says, and I
don't doubt him, that he rides thousands of miles a year,

There is a bloke that posts here that is a lawyer, I believe.
Apparently Doctors, Lawyers and Indian Chiefs are all roaming around
on the roads of America.

And one guy is crying Danger, Danger. And, it might be noted, this is
the same guy that was afraid to walk, when his Mommy took him on a
trip to New York State.

In short, it is obvious a fact, that while millions are roaming around
on bicycles in the U.S. and one poor fool cowers in terror on Miami
Beach, that the roads in America are extremely dangerous.

According to publicly available statistics, in the U.S. abut 725
people are killed annually in the U.S., which has a population of
324,155,799, or in other words about 1 out of 447,111.4, or 0. 0002237
percent die in bicycle crashes every year.

In comparison there are 440,000 deaths in hospitals, nationally, due
to errors. So about 1 out of 736, or 0.1357372% die simply from being
in the hospital.

So, if one enters the hospital one, is in 600 times more danger than
riding a bicycle.

By the way, the population of Miami city is about 441,000 so it can be
said without much error, that a group equal Miami die due to error in
hospitals every year.

But, you cry "Bicycle! Danger!"

"Way back when" a lack of courage was termed politely as "a lack of
intestinal fortitude" but under whatever term you certainly lack it.

>Stuff like that tends to ruin my day because I start hating humanity.

I see. Hating humanity. But of course as you are a member of humanity
you hate yourself, one supposes. So, one might say, with some
accuracy, that you are a hateful person.

Or maybe "fool" is a better definition.

"The foolish Frog" or perhaps "The Cowardly Cockroach" seems a more
apt description soubriquet than "Wise Monkey" as certainly wisdom
seems to be in short supply in your neighborhood.

> Nobody is there for me. If I had a hand grenade I'd throw it but I rather not. Just an animal instinct. People like that need to be controlled or deserve to die. That's why I don't a carry a weapon. Then I come to these distinguished forums and blast the system, Jesus, democracy, and everything that perpetuates the law of the jungle. It is here that I challenge the finest minds --yeah, that's you folks-- to give me an straight answer. Is this democracy or hypocrisy? Gays are accepted for their gayness but cyclists are no more than a monkey. May I say pedestrians are the same? Oh yeah, not having a car in America requires a lot of inner strength. Women won't even date you. Well, if that is a consolation, gays will surely accept you. They poisoned Socrates for telling the truth. Democracy can be a piece of shit, folks.
>
>>
>> But if I have erroneous data please point me at the real, correct,
>> figures.
>>
>> P.S. In the more learned members of the group do not accept numbers
>> copied off the wall in a public toilet even if they were in the first
>> cubical on the left are not acceptable proof of anything. No matter
>> what they say what Suzy will do for five dollars.
>>
>> Well, except to demonstrate the stupidity of those who quotes them.
>
>There are few proud cyclists in America. They are survivors or members of elite packs --those in lycra suits-- where they enjoy greater safety. And yet, you see them with their bikes strapped to the SUV. In the case of Miami they go to Key Biscayne to escape the worst of the jungle and ride far and wide --within that island. There are fewer cyclists in Miami --proud cyclists-- than there are alligators. What we have in this town is too many predators, many of them imported such as the Burmese python.
>
>That's the way it is.
>>
>> >You are an idiot who's out of touch. Try calming traffic before people come out.
>>
>> I see. And you are the only one that knows about traffic?
>>
>> Well, I ride in Bangkok, Thailand where traffic looks like this:
>> http://tinyurl.com/hmqznub
>> or
>> http://tinyurl.com/hah5hzv
>>
>> and you sit there supposing that you, and only you, know anything
>> about traffic?
>>
>> What a joke.
>
>Nobody would be surprised to find out that traffic is chaotic in Bangkok, but few really know that American cities and highways are ruled by fear, bullying and size. If you are hit by an SUV, you are dead meat. Europeans would be shocked to know that the passing lane doesn't exist. Civilized people would be asking why they don't implement speed cameras to tame traffic.
>
>How about planting undercover cups in bicycles catching the bullies? I guess we are going to have to wait for the revolution. ;)

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I had him in the "bozo bin" but occasionally I like to read his posts
if for no other reason than, I suspect, he may well typify a certain
group of people in the U.S. which is, I suppose, a pretty harsh
indictment. But on the other hand, I do read the posts, on other
sites, that extol or damn the two competitors for the presidential
position :-)

In my life I have known some born again Christians and Southern Bigots
that had some pretty strong ideas. But when you asked them to explain
their thesis they gave you positive statements, not always right, I
suspect, but definite. This guy, when you ask him to define his
statement, he changes the subject.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/5/2016 8:32 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 08:24:13 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was riding the other day on a sharrow lane (I assume you know what it is) and this driver in a fancy Audi couldn't help himself and blasted the horn at me (that means intimidation in jungle language). There was another lane but he was too important or I was too insignificant.
>
> Ok, I'm sure that you are correct.... at least in your own fanaticize,
> but I do find some puzzling things.
>
> Frank has been riding a bicycle on the streets and roads since the
> 1970's. True he is an old man but still 40 years of riding a bike back
> and forth, back and forth?

Speaking of riding, blasting horns, etc: Today I rode about 30 miles
round trip to a distant hardware store and back. On the trip out I was
making my way through mazes of suburban streets.

Anyway, about half a mile from the store, I was on a very narrow
downhill street, behind two other cars as we all approached a stop sign.
Of course I was in the middle of the lane. It was probably no more
than nine feet wide.

Some ditz came up behind me and began tooting her horn. Not a blaring
blast - more like "honk honk honk honk honk" - clearly wanting me to get
out of her way. Why? So she could get closer to the car in front of me
at the stop sign?

I turned around and looked at her long and hard. Then I did it again.
Then I looked down at her license plate.

No more honking. She behaved perfectly after that.

She passed me shortly after, then turned into the same plaza I was going
to. I was just behind her, but I resisted the temptation to follow her
to her parking place and ask what was her problem.

I suppose some people might have been terrified. I think it was just a
minor irritation, the kind of thing you can handle with just a little
confidence in your right to the road. And handling it properly does
just a little for education.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/5/2016 8:50 PM, John B. wrote:
> I do read the posts, on other
> sites, that extol or damn the two competitors for the presidential
> position :-)

The _two_ candidates? ;-)

I have a friend who in previous years has had McCain, Bush, and Dole
signs. No Trump sign this year. I don't know how permanently Trump has
driven him away from the GOP. Maybe he was inspired by George Will.

But there's a Gary Johnson sign in his front yard this year. I think
it's charmingly optimistic.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Slave labor wasn't an option. But cheap labor explains a lot of stuff in this world, even moving our manufacturing to a communist nation.

>
> >Few countries like Russia and Iran ever refuse to fear the stick, and then they are punished with sanctions. All the countries in Europe joined the pack. A few raise a timid voice of protest.
>
> Are you completely sane? At the end of WW II Russia literally took
> over all of Eastern Europe. Are you naive enough to believed that this
> was done with loving kindness?

They called it "internationalism" for a reason. I don't know the reason but it's supposed to be solidarity among the working class against the capitalist pigs, a name they often used.

>
> >Ukraine paid the ultimate price. That's a revolution/coup designed to have the effect of an invasion: Regime change.
> >
> >And, of course, there's Iraq and Afghanistan. The freedom fighters became terrorists in a generation, thanks to the propaganda machine. Do you also deny massive corruption in those places?
>
> You really don't know much about the even the Near East. The Afghans
> became terrorists. Utter drivel.
>
> The bulk of the Afghans are tribesmen and poor peasants, and the poppy
> fields are the largest source of income they have. They have been
> fighting someone as far back as history records them. They fought
> Alexander (and got beat, the only time) and since have fought the
> English, twice I believe, and won both times. They fought the Russians
> and beat them and in between times they fight each other. If you ask
> an Afghan what he is he doesn't say "I am an Afghan", Nope, he
> identifies himself by what tribe or clan he belongs to. They don't
> even all speak the same language.
>
> The Iraqis, those lovable people. Some years before the U.S. Iraq war
> someone asked a wealthy Iraqi living in England about the "Iraqi
> Opposition" he replied, "There isn't any. Saddam killed them all".
> They even used poison gas on some of their less savory inhabitants.
>
> Certainly a people that one should admire.

And our Commander in Chief at that moment probably didn't know that he was unleashing hell among all those tribes. Maybe he refused to learn from history --or simply ignored history.

That's why you need to surround yourself with good advisers. Hitler too failed to listen to them and lost the war. Afghanistan is the longest running war in American history, and they are not doing more "nation building" than in Miami Beach. The name of the game, you know: CONSTRUCTION, DESTRUCTION, CORRUPTION.

[John B.]

Well, there you go. Daredevil Frank Rides Again.

But more seriously, people occasionally "beep" at me and it is usually
just a "Hey! There is somebody in back of you" sort of thing. Buses
frequently do when they are approaching a bus stop to sort of wake you
up that "I'm going to pull into the curb" sort of thing.

I'm beginning to actually believe that this really is"The Land of
Smiles" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, as Well Rogers used to say, "All I know is what I read in the
newspapers", but I do think, from what I read, that "competitors" may
be the correct word :-)
--
cheers,

John B.