Is the world better off without Hussein?

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Bush says it is, but the man who famously used a sledgehammer against Hussein's statue says now they got 1,000 Husseins, plus chaos and corruption. Who's right?

"He said that 15 members of his family were executed by Hussein's regime.

But he said he would still rather have Saddam back than the current turmoil."

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/686818/Iraqi-toppled-Saddam-Husseins-statue-invasion

We know for sure America is 2 trillion dollars poorer. Perhaps the whole idea was to move the money around.

---------------------------------

"Life's cheap, profits are sacred"

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nffbCR_uCZ6znjf3gLiFRXSAoLzhWtoZ6U4S7Y37aKc/edit?usp=sharing

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Wednesday, July 6, 2016 at 9:55:19 PM UTC-4, vito wrote:

> Do you have any concept of how feedback works in asystem? Say you are
> riding your bicycle and sense that it is falling, so you steer and/or
> shift weight to prevent the fall. That sense is feedback. It is
> essential to make a system work.
>
> Profit is the feedback of economic systems. It is the reason
> capitalism works so much beter than communism.

Yeah but the same $2 trillion could have been used for fast trains and bike facilities. 👊

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 5:27:46 AM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon wrote:

> On Thursday, 7 July 2016 02:22:44 UTC+1, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> > Bush says it is, but the man who famously used a sledgehammer against Hussein's statue says now they got 1,000 Husseins, plus chaos and corruption. Who's right?
> >
> > "He said that 15 members of his family were executed by Hussein's regime.
> >
> > But he said he would still rather have Saddam back than the current turmoil."
> >
>

> Who's right? The saner Iraqis are the ones whose verdict matters, and it's pretty clear what _they_ think.
>
> The tragedy is that the invasion _could_ have made things better, but the staggering incompetence of the Bush team in the aftermath meant all the good outcomes were lost with the first month.

The people that "think" don't matter that much because they live in a/c in the Green Zone. The simple guy that spoke before is now a refugee in Lebanon. He found life in Iraq to be intolerable and voted with his feet.

Anyway Bush wasn't much of thinker. He was an entrepreneur perhaps.

[Free Spirit, Chief of Quixotic Enterprises]

(Oh, it feels so good to be alone. I'm riding now my legendary "Revolutions for the Planet" bike. No selfish indulgence in road racing. Just plain community biking. Oh yes, it feels great to "buy locally, bike locally." This is a mule, not a racing horse. Bye!)

On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 10:26:33 AM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> On Thursday, 7 July 2016 15:14:55 UTC+1, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
> > People in Africa, the former Yugoslavia, and elsewhere must be thinking that only their criminals go to court. The leaders of the West are above the law and get away with lame excuses.
> >
> > And they are not totally wrong. Do we live in democracy or hypocrisy?
>
> It would be interesting, to say the least, if the ICC indicted Blair. America has, I gather, already declared themselves above ICC judgements but, AFAIK, we haven't.
>
> Quite a lot of people over here want to see Blair on trial.

Funny America endorses the ICC being applied to other countries. All the detainees awaiting trial are African. Discrimination?

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

TM there are 5 posts of this nonsense in a bicycle forum. enough.

try altpoliticsliberalism or whatever

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

"All roads lead to Rome"

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 10:55:40 PM UTC-4, Governor Swill wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:06:04 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 07 Jul 2016 12:11:11 -0400, Governor Swill
> ><governo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>On Wed, 06 Jul 2016 22:20:06 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
> >>wrote:

> >>
> >>>On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 18:27:13 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> >>>Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Bush says it is, but the man who famously used a sledgehammer

> >>>>against Hussein's statue says now they got 1,000 Husseins .....
> >>>
> >>> The Iraq war wasn't entirely necessary ... but the real
> >>> problem is in how it was handled AFTER we'd won.
> >>> The whole infrastructure - physical and service - was
> >>> just left to rot. This spawned a lot of bad attitudes
> >>> that eventually resulted in a lot of bad people and
> >>> events. Chaos descended.
> >>>
> >>> There SHOULD have been a vast convoy of 18-wheelers
> >>> full of goodies following right behind the tanks. That would
> >>> have made all the difference. It didn't happen.
> >>>
> >>> But of course Deadeye Dicks buddies in the military-
> >>> industrial complex made a lot, a LOT, of lovely MONEY
> >>> from a decade of chaos ................
> >>>
> >>> Hate to say it, but that's how it played out - and so
> >>> much so that it HAD to be deliberate. "W" may have
> >>> won the war but capitalist greed lost the peace.
> >>
> >>I'm shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you!
> >
> >
> > I call 'em as I see 'em Swill.
> >
>
> Sorry, I forget my sarcasm tag.

Do you regret not having stocks in Halliburton?

http://www.ibtimes.com/winner-most-iraq-war-contracts-kbr-395-billion-decade-1135905

[John B.]

On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 21:48:14 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Now tell us. How many people does Halliburton employ, how many
subsidiary companies does Halliburton support, how much does
Halliburton pay in taxes?

Even a quick look at Halliburton's annual report for 2015 shows that
their gross profit was 10%, not a extremely large percentage and on
that number they than had to pay taxes.

In contract, Coco-Cola's annual report shows a gross profit of 17% for
the same period.

As I've said before, you really do not know what you are talking
about.
--
cheers,

John B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

ALL ROADS LEAD TO FILTERING

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

I don't know. It sounds suspicious. Bush was Texas, Halliburton too.

Think of war as a great business opportunity.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Oh, I think I remember now. Cheney was the connection. He's the man.

When in doubt just follow the money:

https://www.cs.cornell.edu/gries/howbushoperates/haliburton.html

Nobody is surprised.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Friday, July 8, 2016 at 5:58:30 AM UTC-4, abelard wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 21:46:47 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Do you regret not having stocks in Halliburton?
> >
> >http://www.ibtimes.com/winner-most-iraq-war-contracts-kbr-395-billion-decade-1135905
>

> i have stocks in the human race...what goes around
>
>
> --
> www.abelard.org

Stocks in the human race are rather shaky. Humanity is going down because of all these wars and climate change.

Put your stocks in war and water pumps. 😐

[John B.]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 06:27:30 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

But on the other hand, Bechtel received a "no bid" contract to rebuild
the Kuwait oil fields that the Iraqis destroyed when they left. I
believe that Bush I was president and Bechtel is head quartered in San
Francisco.

>Think of war as a great business opportunity.

Of course.

The major cause of the U.S. recovery from the Great Depression of 1929
was WW II. In 1932-33 a quarter of the U.S. population were without
work. In 1940 unemployment had dropped to 2%.

All wars are great business opportunities. Rome, for example,
developed "defense industry" in support of the Legions. As an aside,
the Romans also developed, probably the most effective medical service
in the world, at that time, in support of the military.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 06:46:42 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

I suppose that the real surprise is that you seem so uninformed.

Firstly, Halliburton is one of the two largest oil field support
companies and has been a world wide business since the 1970's or
earlier.

The comment that Halliburton increased its tax havens is very probably
in reference of foreign incorporated companies created under local
laws requiring a company to be a legal entity in that country.

Example, in Indonesia while a foreign company could operate in
Indonesia a national company, i.e. 51% local ownership, was given a
10% advantage in bidding any government contract, which includes all
oil field related work. To my knowledge both Schlumberger (Largest Oil
Service company in the world) and Halliburton(2nd largest) both had
"Indonesian" companies. And of course, Indonesia has different tax
laws than the U.S.

It might be commented that both Bechtel and Fluar, Baker-Hughes,
Halliburton, and even larger Freeport, who operates the largest copper
mine in the world, all had majority locally owned Indonesian
companies.

The comment "During Cheney's tenure at Halliburton, Halliburton did
business with countries like Azerbaijan, Indonesia, Iraq, Libya, Iran,
and Nigeria even though the US had imposed strict sanctions on them"
is not true, at least in the case of Indonesia, as there were no
sanctions against that country. During the same period Bechtel
(London) legally an English incorporated company worked in Libya
legally, using mostly Canadian citizens.

In short, within the first few comments I can see what might be called
"exaggerations", if not outright lies.

It might also be appropriate to mention that then most common entry
point in the eastern U.S. for illegal drugs is Florida. Thus "Nobody
is surprised" if you are a drug trader. Right?

It certainly is as accurate as the site you posted.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 07:33:24 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, July 8, 2016 at 5:58:30 AM UTC-4, abelard wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 21:46:47 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
>> Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Do you regret not having stocks in Halliburton?
>> >
>> >http://www.ibtimes.com/winner-most-iraq-war-contracts-kbr-395-billion-decade-1135905
>>
>> i have stocks in the human race...what goes around
>>
>>
>> --
>> www.abelard.org
>
>Stocks in the human race are rather shaky. Humanity is going down because of all these wars and climate change.
>

>Put your stocks in war and water pumps. ?

Stocks in humans are shaky? How can that be as there are millions more
of them now than a year ago. If anything they are a glut on he market.
Too many of them. The individual value is decreasing rapidly.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

It's a loud secret that Iraq and Afghanistan were the epicenter of widespread corruption, but once again you live in denial.

Now we are feeling the seismic waves in American cities. Remember the name of the game: construction, destruction, corruption.

You are missing the action living so far away, but incriminating facts about Halliburton are everywhere.

[John B.]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 20:01:17 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most

I'm not sure about "epicenter" but certainly when one needs something
done during war time there isn't the time for a long drawn out period
of developing specifications, building prototypes, revising the design
and reviewing the design , letting bids for tenders, holding bidders
clarification meetings.

It can take years, and the other guys are coming over the hill with
spears.

So, is there corruption in wartime? Certainly. Is this a new thing?
Nope it is as old as warfare. The Roman arms makers turned out shoddy
arms before the birth of Christ.

>Now we are feeling the seismic waves in American cities. Remember the name of the game: construction, destruction, corruption.

What seismic waves? The hullabaloo in Iraq? That isn't news anyone
with any knowledge of the middle east could have forecasted that.
Saddam wasn't a bastard from birth, it was the only way to
successfully rule the country.

Afghanistan, exactly the same thing. Anyone with the sense that god
gave a mouse would know better than to get into that mess.

Lets see, Alexander the Great captured one city and as soon as he left
they took it back. The British invaded two times and got beat both
times. In fact I believe that the First Afghanistan war consisted of
the British army marching in with 17,000 troops and back out with 1.

And there is even a poem about it "When you're wounded and left on
Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains,
jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd
like a soldier."

>You are missing the action living so far away, but incriminating facts about Halliburton are everywhere.

Facts about corruption in and of the U.S., or any other country, are
common as dirt. In fact the first U.S. government scandal dates back
to 1777 before the U.S. technically existed. It is practically a
tradition. You seize on one case out of thousands and make a big
noise, Sort of like going down to the beach and discovering a grain of
sand.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Saturday, July 9, 2016 at 6:38:09 PM UTC-4, Mr. B1ack wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 01:02:08 -0400, Governor Swill
> <governo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 08 Jul 2016 22:47:28 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> You're probably shocked that I can and will diss
> >> greedy amoral capitalists when they deserve it.
> >> Wars happen, but our MIC always seems to be
> >> behind making them much worse and much
> >> longer-lasting. Shit, even Lincoln was bitchin'
> >> about these guys way back when .......
> >>
> >> Cut 'em out of the equation. The military should
> >> build its OWN weapons. Every branch can have
> >> its own manufacturing brigade or maybe they
> >> can just have one and share. Lots of idle factories
> >> around ... chemicals, steel, planes ships and
> >> tanks - let the army supply itself.
> >
> >The Russians tried a central control system for their defense.
> >
> >Didn't work.
>
>
> Yea, but they were Russians ... and pretending
> to be communists too .............
>
> HERE it could work.
>
> You don't have many actual soldiers doing the
> work though, just the bosses are military. The
> rest are civilian workers making regular civilian
> wages for whatever they're doing. Think 'DARPA',
> just bigger and with dirtier fingernails. It'd be just
> another govt job - and there'd be no incentive to
> sell wars to anybody.

It makes sense: Nobody should be getting rich from people's pain.

Except the doctor. 😐

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 9:09:41 AM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> AFAIKS nobody has claimed that Saddam never had chemical weapons, or that he never used them. And nobody has claimed he wasn't a bloody tyrant.
>
> International pressure before the invasion was designed to make him give them up, and, quite evidently in hindsight, it worked. But since he'd consistently lied about chemical weapons before that time, of course it was hard to believe it was for real.
>
> Yes, he could have developed a new set, so could any moderately industrialised nation.
>
> For decades the West turned a blind eye to the CBW capability, because they were concerned about an Iranian mass army attack on Iraq, and they thought chemical weapons were Saddam's only real hope of stopping them.
>
> Why do you think Bush Snr. didn't take him out after Desert Storm? He listened to his Middle East experts, and had some picture of what might follow.

A fact that receives little attention is that by taking out Hussein, it made Iran more paranoid and also stronger and bolder in its pursuit of WMDs.

So the long list of negative events unleashed by the reckless invasion of Iraq, add Iran. You may also add North Korea to that list, since they know they can not trust America.

We will be paying for that mistake forever.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

On Sunday, July 10, 2016 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-4, Governor Swill wrote:
> "Gas is expensive. It's damaging the economy."
> "Let's conquer one of those oil states and take their oil."
> "You always suggest that Mr President."
> "Because it's a good idea. Bert, you're in charge of trucks, tanks
> and land vehicles. Ramp it up."
> "Al, gimme three more carrier groups out of the shipyards."
> "Tom, you're in charge of tripling gun and missile production."
> "Leroy, how you guys doin' on that mini neutron bomb project? We'll
> probably need a couple thousand of 'em."
> "What about grunts, sir? The army just isn't big enough."
> "We'll conscript all the unemployed niggers and wetbacks. Hell,
> that'll enough to give us the biggest army the world ever saw!"
>
> Swill
> --

"Hey, if we can't have enough niggers to join the Army, we've got a bunch of unpronounceable Eastern European countries willing to prove themselves in NATO," said George.

"Get me Halliburton and let's go nation building. In Texas we shoot first, and then ask questions later."

And the rest is history. ;)

[John B.]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 08:12:59 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
Humble Philosopher" <thetibet...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 9:09:41 AM UTC-4, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
>> AFAIKS nobody has claimed that Saddam never had chemical weapons, or that he never used them. And nobody has claimed he wasn't a bloody tyrant.
>>
>> International pressure before the invasion was designed to make him give them up, and, quite evidently in hindsight, it worked. But since he'd consistently lied about chemical weapons before that time, of course it was hard to believe it was for real.
>>
>> Yes, he could have developed a new set, so could any moderately industrialised nation.
>>
>> For decades the West turned a blind eye to the CBW capability, because they were concerned about an Iranian mass army attack on Iraq, and they thought chemical weapons were Saddam's only real hope of stopping them.
>>
>> Why do you think Bush Snr. didn't take him out after Desert Storm? He listened to his Middle East experts, and had some picture of what might follow.
>
>A fact that receives little attention is that by taking out Hussein, it made Iran more paranoid and also stronger and bolder in its pursuit of WMDs.

I see. the death of the leader of a country with whom Iran has just
had an eight year war, which began with Iraq invading Iran, and during
which something like a million people died, made Iran paranoid?

You must be kidding.

As for WMD's, are you speaking about things like the bombing of
Dresden where the "good guys" killed around 25,000 people in four
days? Or maybe Berlin where the "good guys" dropped 68,000 tons of
bombs on one city?

>So the long list of negative events unleashed by the reckless invasion of Iraq, add Iran. You may also add North Korea to that list, since they know they can not trust America.

But Iran? Of course, the Usians got kicked out of the country, but
negative events? You mean like invading the U.S. Embassy? Which is in
violation of international law?

Or did you mean the revolution against a widely unpopular government
what was morally, politically and financially corrupt?

>We will be paying for that mistake forever.

Forever? Mistake? How so? This Iranians have nothing to offer but
their oil and in 2012 they shipped, into the international market,
some 1.5 millions of barrels a day. Oh yes, these nice people are
executing about 1,400 of their people a year.

And North Korea? A wonderful place. Lets see:

Area N. Korea - 120,000 sq.Km. S. Korea - 100,000 sq.km.
Population N. - 24.7 million S. 48.9 million
GDP N. - 40 billion, S. 1,622 billion
GDP/capita - N. $1,800 S. $32,400
Infant morality 26.21/1,000 live births S. 4.08
Corruption Index N. 174 S. 45
Homicide Rate N. 15.2/100,000 S. 2.6
Military members N. 1,190,000 S. 655,000
Military Budget
as part of GDP N. 22.3% S. 2.8%

Obviously a wonderful place and should be welcomed warmly into the
list better places in the world to reside.

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Which history is that? That the U.S. has dropped bombs on 32 countries
since the end of WW I, or that they have interfered in the internal
affairs of 70 countries during the same period?

You don't seem to be very knowledge about what might be termed
"current affairs".
--
cheers,

John B.

[Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher]

Obviously you lack the wisdom of the jungle. When you see your neighbors falling for NOT having "paws and sharp teeth," you better acquire them. The arms race has been the engine behind evolution, but it should not have a place in a civilized world.

Now we are living in the jungle.