Spoke Tension Meter That Is Easy On The Hands?

[(PeteCresswell)]

I've got a very basic WheelSmith tensiometer, but when I do an entire
wheel my hands get sore.

viz: http://tinyurl.com/jyzvl2f

Can anybody suggest something more hand-friendly that doesn't cost over
$200?
--
Pete Cresswell

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:qun5ublvstdh4021h...@4ax.com...

When I was a kid, someone demonstrated pinging the spokes with a tea spoon
and listening to the pitch.

Its one of several tricks I never got my head around - wheel building is one
of the few things I'd have to pay someone to do.

[Andre Jute]

Actually, that one appears to work on the same principle -- and perhaps to be a rebranded version -- of the only inexpensive spoke tension meter I know that works, the Park Tool TM1 for Euro 65, same as the Union for Euro 88.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/s?q=spoke+tension

Sorry not to be more help.

Cheapest meter I know that doesn't hurt your hands is the DT Swiss base analogue tensiometer at Euro 392 (!) can be seen at
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/s?q=tensiometer&cat=direct

Andre Jute
Toolfondler

[Dennis Davis]

In article <qun5ublvstdh4021h...@4ax.com>,

See:

http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/support/tensiometers/

Roger Musson reckons tensiometers aren't really necessary. But the
Park tool tensiometer is good enough. Available for about 50 quid
in the UK:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/park-tool-spoke-tension-meter/

Don't know how "hand-friendly" the Park tensiometer is likely to be.

I don't have a tensiometer and have never used one when building
wheels. Has worked well for me but, as usual, YMMV.

If I ever got a tensiometer, I suspect I'd use it mainly to check
the spokes were evenly tensioned. Rather than just plucking them
which is what I've done up to now.
--
Dennis Davis <denni...@fastmail.fm>

[John B.]

On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 15:33:49 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid>
wrote:

Well, more manual labor will likely toughen your hands to the point
that using a tension meter won't be painful :-)

On the other hand, the DT Swiss tension meter probably is easier on
the hands than most of the cheap and dirty meters.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

The question I have always had is if the wheel is perfectly round and
with any side to side wobble is the question of individual spoke
tension something to be worried about?

Note: Individual meaning one or two spokes.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm curious about exactly how your hands get sore. Is it muscular or
joint fatigue from having to squeeze the thing so often? Or is it pain
from the relatively thin edges digging into your hand? If the latter,
might it be solved by padding the edges or using gloves?

Disclaimer: I've never used one of the things, although one of my best
cycling friends has one - unless he's sold it, that is.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tosspot]

I use the Park TM-1 and I don't reckon it's any easier on the hands than
what you have, so I wouldn't be looking down that road.

[Dennis Davis]

In article <nrvd4m$9me$1...@dont-email.me>,

Frank Krygowski <frkryg...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
>On 9/21/2016 3:33 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>> I've got a very basic WheelSmith tensiometer, but when I do an
>> entire wheel my hands get sore.
>>
>> viz: http://tinyurl.com/jyzvl2f
>>
>> Can anybody suggest something more hand-friendly that doesn't
>> cost over $200?
>
>I'm curious about exactly how your hands get sore. Is it muscular
>or joint fatigue from having to squeeze the thing so often? Or
>is it pain from the relatively thin edges digging into your hand?
>If the latter, might it be solved by padding the edges or using
>gloves?

I sense a marketing opportunity here. Get some traditional cycling
gloves -- the ones with the crocheted back. Split the pairs and
sell them individually as left-handed or right-handed wheel building
gloves for use with tensiometers. Sell them each at four times the
price of the pairs. You'll have a lot of the left-handed ones
remaining but, even so, you'll turn a tidy profit :-)
--
Dennis Davis <denni...@fastmail.fm>

[AMuzi]

You're right as far as it goes. For a new rim freshly built,
spoke tension will be relatively uniform but not exactly
identical spoke-to-spoke. In theory, a new wheel should have
equal tension for all spokes on the same side of a hub but
in this real physical world, not so much. (on a surviving
wheel of many urban commutes all bets are off)

The tensiometer tells you if the overall tension is
suitable. That value depends on rim material/model and how
much offset your hub introduces on the right side.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

+1
And then a more expensive Wannabee Professional Model with
this formula printed on the back:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SPOKFORM.JPG

(real professionals use tattoo ink)

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Benderthe.evilrobot:

>When I was a kid, someone demonstrated pinging the spokes with a tea spoon
>and listening to the pitch.

That would seem to work for relative tension - but not of actual
tension.

Rohloff suggests that spokes be tensioned to about 1000N (with tire
inflated):
https://www.rohloff.de/en/technology/workshop/wheel-stability/index.html

My problem is getting spokes to that number.


--
Pete Cresswell

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Frank Krygowski:

>I'm curious about exactly how your hands get sore. Is it muscular or
>joint fatigue from having to squeeze the thing so often? Or is it pain
>from the relatively thin edges digging into your hand?

The last one: point loading by those hard edges on
squeeze-after-squeeze.

Good thought about softening the edges.... I've got some electrician's
mastic somewhere and I'll give that a try.

But I am also suspicious of my current device's accuracy.

Rohloff wants me to put 94 kgs of tension on my spokes, but when I get
up to what the meter says is a little over half of that threads start
squeaking and one spoke has already broken at the threads.
--
Pete Cresswell

[AMuzi]

As with any threaded fastener you can get more tension with
less torque on a lubricated thread. We like linseed oil
although just about any oil will do. Oil the threads
sloppily as to wet the nipple-rim interface as well.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/22/2016 9:53 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Frank Krygowski:
>> I'm curious about exactly how your hands get sore. Is it muscular or
>> joint fatigue from having to squeeze the thing so often? Or is it pain
>>from the relatively thin edges digging into your hand?
>
> The last one: point loading by those hard edges on
> squeeze-after-squeeze.
>
> Good thought about softening the edges.... I've got some electrician's
> mastic somewhere and I'll give that a try.

I was envisioning something like 1/2" wide "handles" that slip over the
hard edges. Perhaps hardwood dowels with a slit for the edges of the
tensiometer.

But it may be easier to start with vinyl tubing, slit to fit over the
tool's edges. Use two or three layers in nesting diameters to build up
padding.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/22/2016 9:48 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Benderthe.evilrobot:
>> When I was a kid, someone demonstrated pinging the spokes with a tea spoon
>> and listening to the pitch.
>
> That would seem to work for relative tension - but not of actual
> tension.

It should work for actual tension as well, if you've got enough data.
See http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/pitcheqn.htm#undrload

and http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp53-2002.pdf


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Mark J.]

My Park has thick plastic "grips" that keep the tool edge from digging
into one's hands. A bit of plastic, tape, or epoxy could give you the
same, just so long as it doesn't interfere with the free motion of the
tool at its pivot.

Also, second what Andy Muzi said about lubricating your spokes. For new
wheels, I also lubricate the rim/nipple interface with a cotton swap
dipped in grease. Makes building so much easier.

Mark J.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:ns0rua$qjf$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 9/22/2016 9:48 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>> Per Benderthe.evilrobot:
>>> When I was a kid, someone demonstrated pinging the spokes with a tea
>>> spoon
>>> and listening to the pitch.
>>
>> That would seem to work for relative tension - but not of actual
>> tension.

If you can tune a guitar - you can tune a wheel...................

I have to use a little electronic doodad with a LCD readout.

Come to think of it..........................most come with a coupler for
acoustic guitars, so all you need to know is what pitch is the right
tension.

[Tosspot]

That can't be that hard? It's surely about 100kg, depending on the
rider I tension mine from about 90-110, depending on rider.

[Doug Landau]

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 6:48:45 AM UTC-7, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Benderthe.evilrobot:
> >When I was a kid, someone demonstrated pinging the spokes with a tea spoon
> >and listening to the pitch.
>
> That would seem to work for relative tension - but not of actual
> tension.

So, use the tensiometer on one spoke, and your ear to match the rest to that.

-dkl

[John B.]

Yes, I agree with you in principal.

I was referring to a wheel when after getting the rim perfectly round
with no wobble side to side and you discover a number of spokes that
are either tighter, or looser, then the rest. What does one do? If you
tighten or loosen them then the wheel will no longer be round or
without "lateral run out".

Or perhaps the question is whether it is better to have a round wheel,
or evenly tightened spokes?
--
cheers,

John B.

[Ralph Barone]

This technique would be dead simple for a radially spokes wheel, but it
gets a little trickier on a three cross wheel build, since you have three
different length segments which resonate at different frequencies as well
as the plucked spoke causing all the other "connected" spokes to ring.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per AMuzi:

>As with any threaded fastener you can get more tension with
>less torque on a lubricated thread. We like linseed oil
>although just about any oil will do. Oil the threads
>sloppily as to wet the nipple-rim interface as well.

Bingo !!!!

Without removing or loosening the nipples, I put a drop of lube on the
outside end of each nipple. Then I went back and did the same on the
inside end of each nipple.

Dunno if it got into the threads or not.... but for sure it lubed the
interface between nipples and rim.

Bottom line: Case Closed.... Now the nipples can be tightened to the
recommended tension with no problems, no broken spokes.

Next thing, I'll ping each spoke to identify any that are obviously
tighter or looser than the rest and adjust accordingly using the
tensionmeter.
--
Pete Cresswell

[jbeattie]

The Park doesn't have any sharp edges, and unless you have arthritis, it is exceptionally easy to use -- and it's cheap.

-- Jay Beattie.

[jbeattie]

I use linseed oil because it acts as a mild threadlock and a lubricant. A straight lubricant doesn't do the trick for me anymore with lightweight rims. Tensions that are sufficient to keep the wheel straight without a threadlocker are also sufficient to cause cracking at the spoke holes. I bought a Park tensiometer after cracking a couple Velocity Aeroheads 20 years ago that I built to tone and perceived tension (i.e. my finely calibrated hands).

-- Jay Beattie.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per (PeteCresswell):
>Bottom line: Case Closed....

For the benefit of anybody else who is going here, I started on this
little venture because of 3 things:

- An increase in frequency of broken spokes

- Spokes working loose

- Spoke-related noises from the wheel.


Assuming a linear relationship in the tensiometer's readings, it looks
to me like, before this, the wheel's spokes were at only 1/3 to 1/2 of
the recommended tension.

Now they are all up to 100 N.

Even so my car seems to drive better after I wash it.... I think the
bike rides noticeably better with the properly-tensioned spokes... it
just feels tighter, more precise, and more responsive. It's a pig to
begin with.... but now it is noticeably less of a pig.
--
Pete Cresswell

[Tosspot]

It's cheap, I'll grant you that.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

C has a Rollo right ? with what Ga spoke ?

C does engineering ?

the path to the number has boundaries. If those boundaries are exceeded with non uniform rim, approach, mistakes, over torqued areas due to inexperience ...

my experience covers the ground but not the nomenclature....

Using the truss bridge analogy twist all day but a coupla errors n the bridge trusses in the end product are not equally torqued tho the bridge looks straight...but if you demand all trusses go to 1000Nx then ?

pop pop

I get to 75% n ride on .....but re-torque next week.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

never used a gauge ..imagine gauge experience may allow for a backing off from a point where more torque feels destructive at sections where torque is not even with the math truss n retorquing from there in oursuit of perfection...but haven't read advice on staging the tune

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, September 21, 2016 at 12:33:58 PM UTC-7, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> I've got a very basic WheelSmith tensiometer, but when I do an entire
> wheel my hands get sore.
>
> viz: http://tinyurl.com/jyzvl2f
>
> Can anybody suggest something more hand-friendly that doesn't cost over
> $200?

> --
> Pete Cresswell

Pete, you insert all of the spokes and take them up near the point at which they get tight. Then you tighten ONE with your tensiometer. You then use your spoke tool to "ring" the spokes and tighten them all up to the said "ring".

You can use the tensiometer off and on just to give you an idea of what is going on. Tensiometers are usually used by automatic spoking machines since they don't have a sense of feel.

After you have all of the tensions about equal according to the "ring" you can make ONLY minor adjustments to straighten the wheel. With a good rim from start to finish you shouldn't need to spend more than about a half hour using this method.

You have to be careful that you cross the spokes correctly or they "click" under use and drive you crazy.