Sealed Bearings

[cycl...@gmail.com]

With all the bikes I have I also have a bike for which I built the wheels on old Campy record hub on the back and DuraAce on the front.

After getting this bike back from a friend who was saving it for me while I was not in the best of health I rebuilt the wheels with new balls and Campy grease.

I have mostly modern wheelsets from Campy or Fulcrum (the people who make the modern Campy hubs etc.) These wheels have sealed bearings. These sort of bothered me when I saw them because of the drag of the seals. You can tell simply spinning the wheels in a stand. But I imagined that with the weight of a person this would be insignificant.

For the last couple of days I have been riding the old Look and in fact you CAN feel the difference between the open bearings and the sealed. It does coast much further and with less noise.

Has anyone else noticed this?

[Joerg]

No, but was that with the very same tires and tire pressures front and back?

A friend of mine has an old Peugeot which still needs to be restored.
Decades ago he equipped that with Phil Woods seal bearings front and
back and those wheels spin just as freely as on my Shimano 600 set. The
wheels on my MTB do spin less freely but that's because each side has
double rubbers to keep out dirt (more or less).

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[James]

You must be very sensitive, or the sealed units you have are extremely
high friction compared with what's normal. IIRC, each seal contributes
about <0.5W at 50km/h.

--
JS

[avag...@gmail.com]

trade grease for: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/182-8096206-5688912?url=search-alias%3Dautomotive&field-keywords=ford+differential%2Cmodifier

in drops.

or repack a freehub then repack a freewheel. freewheels win.

if you're good a this then grade 25 balls in new cones, straight axle, roll better than inexpensive dull Chinese balls.

you would add in all the friction savers but Muzi's build will be %15 faster

seals have an edge once broken in that rides on a layer of rotationally extruded/thrown off lubricant.

I guess grease piles up on seals ID for more friction but....a better seal whereas slimey synthetics would flow under.

that is in facto what muh Ford 5.4 SOHC does with recommended 5-20 synthetic (Valvo).The thinness lubes rings but burns off clean into the convertor (ruining it) Does not burn oil running steady but stop n go draws oil past rings for lubrication.

trade for cartridge bearings

[Frank Krygowski]

FWIW, of my four most-ridden bikes, two have sealed bearing hubs and two
do not. I can't tell the difference in the hubs. Perhaps it's because
the bikes are quite different; but even on the workstand, I haven't
noticed any difference.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I built a set of wheels with sealed cartridge bearings and they seemed
to spin quite freely. Later I busted a spoke on another bike and
"quick, quick" bought a set of low end Shimano wheels. I was tinkering
with the two bikes and turned them both upside down and spun the
wheels, by hand. Just reached out with both hands and gave them, a
flick. They seemed to spin for just about the same period. Or perhaps,
I should say that neither of them stopped noticeably sooner than the
other.
--
cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

RANDOM RESULTS..... or hi end industrial standards....weak testing methods...

[Ian Field]

<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6ad55839-118e-4e2a...@googlegroups.com...

If you mean regular bearings like the ones used for gear box shafts; there's
a choice between shielded and oil seal bearings.

The oil seal type have noticeable friction, while AFAIK: the shielded type
just have a stainless steel shield that doesn't have any actual contact with
the inner ring.

The oil seal type are only unavoidable if you need to contain oil.
The shielded type are OK with grease, but not 100% at keeping road grit out.

[John B.]

You over simplify, There are basically three types of cartridge
bearing. Plain (open, no seals or shields), Shielded and Sealed.

The shielded of course simply have a plate mounted, generally, in the
outer race to protect the interior bearing. These "shields" can be
contact or non contact and the non contact obviously have lower
"drag", Then we have the "Sealed" where a soft material is used to
protect the interior of the bearing. Again these "seals" may be
contact or non contact.

Then we get into the material that the shields and seals are made
from, and then there is the single side seal/shield and both sides.

As an example, one manufacture lists the following:
Type ZZS - Removable non-contact metal shield retained in the
outer ring with a snap wire.
Type ZZ - Non-removable, non-contact metal shield retained in the
outer ring via crimping, or pressing.
Type ZZS - Removable non-contact metal shield retained in the
outer ring with a snap wire.
Type ZZ - Non-removable, non-contact metal shield retained in the
outer ring via crimping, or pressing.
Type 2RS - Molded rubber seal. This type of seal is Buna-N bonded
to a steel insert.
Type 2RU - Molded rubber seal, non- contact. This type of seal is
Buna-N bonded to a steel insert.
Type 2VS - Molded Viton seal. This type of seal is made of Viton
bonded to a steel insert.
Type TTS - Glass reinforced PTFE seal is retained in the outer
ring with a snap wire.

Other types:
On larger bore bearings (above 10mm), labyrinth type rubber seals are
available.
Double lip rubber seals are also available and or normally of the
labyrinth type.
Felt seals - The felt seal consists of two metal plates fixed in the
outer ring of the bearing. Between the two plates is a felt washer.
Shrouded seals - These seals consist of rubber seals retained by two
steel caps or shrouds fixed to the outer ring.
Both felt seals and shrouded seals take up extra space and are
typically only available on larger bore bearings.

There innumerable versions of bearings and selection depends on,
sometimes, very complex criteria.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

No wonder. Just imagine what would happen if only 2% of a sporty rider's
200W would be lost in the bearings. That would come to 1W dissipation
per bearing and they'd become very toasty. Yet they never do.

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message
news:6reskbdmge78n2hqi...@4ax.com...

Evidently not simple enough for you - the discussion was not about open
bearings.

[John B.]

On Wed, 1 Jun 2016 18:39:42 +0100, "Ian Field"

No it wasn't, but then, you are so accustomed to shouting "fuckwit" I
thought it best to be overly cautious and cover all possible points of
contention, as it is obvious from the "Great V-brake Discussion" that
your mechanical abilities is, well, rather limited.

Obviously it was a mistake as you still shout and scream.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

On 2016-06-01 17:55, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Wed, 01 Jun 2016

> I think you'll find that a typical aluminium bicycle wheel hub will
> VERY easily dissipate quite a few watts - probably well into double
> digits - without getting in the least bit toasty, with only the normal
> airflow to cool it.


I was thinking about the material used in the seals. On MTB that is
usually rubber and on road bikes often some sort of fiber. Very small,
so the seal itself would likely burn up.


> It has more surface area than heat sinks used for integrated circuits
> which need to dissipate tens of watts, and FAR better airflow than you
> find inside most electronic equipment as well.
>
> And 2% of 200 is 4, by the way.
>

But you have four bearings, so 1W each.

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message

news:517vkbh7ht11884c0...@4ax.com...

You're the one that keeps on ranting - and I've seen at least one other
person on the receiving end.

[AMuzi]

There's nothing new in bearing seals, big selection:

http://www.skf.com/au/products/bearings-units-housings/ball-bearings/principles/application-of-bearings/sealing-arrangements/types-of-seals/index.html


The seal type is the last part of the bearing number. If you
need tighter sealing or more free running seals, buy a
bearing with a different suffix.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[James]

On 03/06/16 03:40, Joerg wrote:

>
>
> I was thinking about the material used in the seals. On MTB that is
> usually rubber and on road bikes often some sort of fiber. Very small,
> so the seal itself would likely burn up.
>
>

I have never seen a fibre "seal" used on any bicycle bearing. All of
the seals I've seen are rubber, and they most certainly do not "burn up".

>> It has more surface area than heat sinks used for integrated circuits
>> which need to dissipate tens of watts, and FAR better airflow than you
>> find inside most electronic equipment as well.
>>
>> And 2% of 200 is 4, by the way.
>>
>
> But you have four bearings, so 1W each.
>

I used an on line estimator of bearing losses by SKF some time ago, to
find out what they estimate bearing loses to be for a typical double
sealed cartridge bearing as used in the wheels I had at the time. The
bearings have a rubber seal on both sides. If I remember correctly, the
loses per bearing were in the order of 0.5W at a road speed of 50km/h.
0.1W of that was rolling friction. I.e. sticky grease and friction in
the ball cage. 0.4W was from the seal friction.

So a total of about 1W per wheel at 50km/h. Hardly enough to raise the
bearing temperature by some detectible level above ambient - even if the
bike was stationary and being pedalled on rollers!

--
JS

[John B.]

On Thu, 2 Jun 2016 19:16:44 +0100, "Ian Field"

Yes, and you might see more.

But one thing you won't see, is me calling someone that is trying to
help me a "fuckwit".
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:28:29 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Could you have used "seal one side" bearings. I have a set of wheels
with cartridge bearings and before I built the wheels I took the hubs
apart and that is what they had. So (I guess) only 1/2W at 50 :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

There are bearing shields made of various fibers, usually in
phenolic resin:
http://www.ib-bearings.com/product2.html

[cycl...@gmail.com]

From the discussion it would appear that the lost of 2% of the pedaling energy in the wheel bearings doesn't appear to be noticeable to most people.

I most surely notice it so I assume that most of you ride well within your limits while a large part of my time I am at or near mine. And I am not a very fast rider anymore.

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message

news:44d2lb9cgj11t4ppv...@4ax.com...

Sometimes the word help needs to be in inverted
commas.......................

[James]

Could have of course. Makes no difference to me.

--
JS

[James]

Yes there are, but "On MTB that is usually rubber and on road bikes
often some sort of fiber"?

I remember cones with a black rubbery looking "seal", and the cartridge
bearings used in the hubs I have and have seen are either black and soft
like rubber, with a metal stiffener, or similar with an orange soft
"rubbery" plastic.

Campy UT cranks have a black rubbery "seal" that presses on the side of
the cartridge bearing too.

Does your mileage vary?

--
JS

[John B.]

On Sat, 4 Jun 2016 08:11:57 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>

Frankly, I can't tell the difference between seals and no seals :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[James]

On 04/06/16 12:25, John B. wrote:

>
> Frankly, I can't tell the difference between seals and no seals :-)
>

My headlight is driven by my front dynamo hub. I can't feel a
difference in drag when I switch between light on and light off, so
there's no way I could feel a difference between sealed or open bearings.

But, according to bikecalculator.com, to ride at 40km/h with the default
settings requires 373Watts. If there was suddenly 1 extra Watt
available, the speed is increased by 40m/h (40.04km/h), and necessarily
a 40km time trial will be completed 6 seconds faster.

--
JS

[John B.]

On Sat, 4 Jun 2016 13:25:34 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I've got some Shimano hubs that no real seal in them at all. There is
a dust cap that appears to be about 1mm smaller in diameter then the
I.D. of the hub and there is no contact between the "dust cap" and the
hub.

I think this a common Shimano design and initially I thought that the
lube would become contaminated quickly but after a year there seems to
be no problem.

I haven't used a generator for years and years but when I was in Japan
I had a bike with a sidewall driven generator and I seem to remember
that it was a bit harder to pedal when I used it. Of course, this was
in the days of incandescent light bulbs so maybe it was an old design

[James]

Roller or sidewall dynamos do tend to exhibit more drag than hub dynamos.

--
JS

[Frank Krygowski]

Agreed. But if a good roller or sidewall unit is set up carefully, the
added drag is minimal, and shouldn't matter to anyone but racers.

Personally, I think the bigger effect is psychological. For many
people, if they can hear the dynamo running, it preys on their mind.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ian Field]

"James" <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:nisvbd$jjb$1...@dont-email.me...

Can't remember ever having seen a bearing with a seal both sides - it could
only ever be lubricated during manufacture, then you're stuck with whatever
they put in it.

Bearings with metal shield on one or both sides aren't exactly rare though.
If they run immersed in oil, then no problem. I vaguely remember seeing an
advert for a grease gun/ram device you clamp metal shield bearings into to
force grease in - if you try that with a seal bearing; the seal pops out.

[Ian Field]

"James" <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:nithni$1k5$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 04/06/16 12:25, John B. wrote:
>
>>
>> Frankly, I can't tell the difference between seals and no seals :-)
>>
>
> My headlight is driven by my front dynamo hub. I can't feel a difference
> in drag when I switch between light on and light off,

When I had an old Sturmey-Archer hub dynamo, I could feel it "cogging" at
very low speed.

There's no mistaking the extra drag when engaging a Miller "rub-wheel"
(bottle) dynamo. They were spring loaded and latched in position off the
sidewall - on most setups; that was the only way of turning the lights on
and off.

[AMuzi]

Most bearings used on bicycles now are sealed or shielded on
both sides. No particular technical reason for that except
double seals are standard and cheap. One-side are less
available in many common sizes.

Mechanics (and not just bicycle mechanics) commonly pop out
the seals, fill with grease and reset seals before
installation, which is considered good practice. Smaller
series such as used in bicycle hubs for example are often
delivered with oil only.

[Ian Field]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:nivetu$ecr$1...@dont-email.me...

They must've changed the design since the last time I tried to re fit a seal
that I'd taken out.

[James]

2 rubber seals is very common. Mostly they are sealed for the "life" of
the product. I recently overhauled the pump that supplies water
pressure to my house. It had a pair of such sealed bearings on the
electric motor shaft.

Similarly the Mavic hubs and Miche hubs in my bicycle wheels both have
cartridge bearings with 2 rubber seals.

Similar to these...

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/au/en/brand-x-plus-sealed-bearing-6001-v2rs-bearing/rp-prod142925

--
JS

[James]

On 05/06/16 06:20, Ian Field wrote:
>
>
> "James" <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:nithni$1k5$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 04/06/16 12:25, John B. wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Frankly, I can't tell the difference between seals and no seals :-)
>>>
>>
>> My headlight is driven by my front dynamo hub. I can't feel a
>> difference in drag when I switch between light on and light off,
>
> When I had an old Sturmey-Archer hub dynamo, I could feel it "cogging"
> at very low speed.
>

The cogging feeling does not necessarily mean drag.

> There's no mistaking the extra drag when engaging a Miller "rub-wheel"
> (bottle) dynamo. They were spring loaded and latched in position off the
> sidewall - on most setups; that was the only way of turning the lights
> on and off.

Yes, those that rub on the sidewall or top of the tyre are usually a
little less efficient. But as Frank noted, the noise they make is often
more a psychological drag.

I rode with a roller dynamo for a few years. After a while, I'd just
ignore it and could still ride as fast for my usual rides.

--
JS

[James]

On 05/06/16 06:50, AMuzi wrote:

> Mechanics (and not just bicycle mechanics) commonly pop out the
> seals, fill with grease and reset seals before installation, which is
> considered good practice.

I wager the bearing manufacturers don't recommend it! While it may be
possible to do without damaging the seal, those seals are rather
delicate and easily damaged. I can understand John's suggestion to pop
out one seal and fit the bearings open on the inside of a hub. You
could then part fill the inside of the hub with oil, for example.

> Smaller series such as used in bicycle
> hubs for example are often delivered with oil only.
>

What surprised me when I examined the SKF data for the bearings used in
my Mavic hubs and compared them with those used in my Miche hubs, was
the marked difference in load capacity between the two bearings - though
they are of similar size.

The slightly larger bearings used in the Miche hubs have substantially
higher load ratings (static and dynamic). I wore out bearings in the
Mavic hubs relatively quickly. I haven't had to change the bearings in
the Miche hubs yet, though I'm sure I would have by now, had the
bearings been the same as those in the Mavic hubs.

--
JS

[John B.]

See: http://www.engineerstudent.co.uk/bearing_numbers_explained.html

>Bearings with metal shield on one or both sides aren't exactly rare though.
>If they run immersed in oil, then no problem. I vaguely remember seeing an
>advert for a grease gun/ram device you clamp metal shield bearings into to
>force grease in - if you try that with a seal bearing; the seal pops out.

Why would a bearing immersed in oil require a seal?
--
cheers,

John B.

[Ian Field]

"James" <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:nivfur$o0e$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 05/06/16 06:20, Ian Field wrote:
>>
>>
>> "James" <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:nithni$1k5$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 04/06/16 12:25, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Frankly, I can't tell the difference between seals and no seals :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> My headlight is driven by my front dynamo hub. I can't feel a
>>> difference in drag when I switch between light on and light off,
>>
>> When I had an old Sturmey-Archer hub dynamo, I could feel it "cogging"
>> at very low speed.
>>
>
> The cogging feeling does not necessarily mean drag.

Never said it did - I was making the point that very slight influences could
be perceptible.

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message

news:ood7lbh6pv9cvhjd6...@4ax.com...

Once again you demonstrate your astounding lack of reading
comprehension.........................

"Bearings with metal shield on one or both sides aren't exactly rare though.

If they run immersed in oil, then no problem.".

[James]

On 06/06/16 05:09, Ian Field wrote:
>
>
> "James" <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:nivfur$o0e$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 05/06/16 06:20, Ian Field wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "James" <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:nithni$1k5$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>> On 04/06/16 12:25, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Frankly, I can't tell the difference between seals and no seals :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My headlight is driven by my front dynamo hub. I can't feel a
>>>> difference in drag when I switch between light on and light off,
>>>
>>> When I had an old Sturmey-Archer hub dynamo, I could feel it "cogging"
>>> at very low speed.
>>>
>>
>> The cogging feeling does not necessarily mean drag.
>
> Never said it did - I was making the point that very slight influences
> could be perceptible.

Never claimed you said it did - I was also making a point.

--
JS

[Ian Field]

"James" <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:nj23ij$gbf$3...@dont-email.me...

Is *EVERYONE* on this group capable of starting an argument in an empty
room?!!!!!

[James]

There is no need to shout, Ian. How rude.

--
JS

[John B.]

On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 20:13:58 +0100, "Ian Field"

Again, why would anyone use a sealed bearing in a system where it was
immersed in oil? After all, an oil bath would not only ensure
cleanliness but also provide better lubrication and serve to cool the
bearing.

Please note, I was referring to someone with normal intelligence.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 07:25:54 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Cheer up, he hasn't called you a "fuckwit" yet.....
--
cheers,

John B.

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message

news:t1m9lb13mmisqnu9p...@4ax.com...

It pretty much applies to anyone who thinks you're
not..............................

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message

news:vjl9lbdo6fmkd44th...@4ax.com...

I never said they did - but in a desperate attempt to rescue you from your
state of confusion; bearings with a seal one side are routinely used for
shafts emerging through the casing of an oil immersion sump.

Your continuing deterioration makes explaining it to you difficult, so I'll
explain it in simple terms for you; seal bearings have rubber seals, shield
bearings have metal shields.

You probably still need someone to draw pictures for you - but this isn't a
binaries group.

[John B.]

On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 19:05:22 +0100, "Ian Field"

In fact you did say. You said "If they run immersed in oil, then no
problem", if you have forgotten see above.

I simply asked why would anyone select sealed bearings to use immersed
in oil?

>Your continuing deterioration makes explaining it to you difficult, so I'll
>explain it in simple terms for you; seal bearings have rubber seals, shield
>bearings have metal shields.
>
>You probably still need someone to draw pictures for you - but this isn't a
>binaries group.

Perhaps, but then you might answer my question as to why would one
select a sealed bearing to run "immersed in oil", which would
eliminate the requirement for pictures.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message

news:pv7clbt5v91km0f4v...@4ax.com...

In the same sentence as I mentioned shield bearings - its really hard to
comprehend just how thick you are!!!

[John B.]

On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 19:08:12 +0100, "Ian Field"

Given that your memory appears to be faulty I remind you that actually
you wrote: "Bearings with metal shield on one or both sides aren't

exactly rare though. If they run immersed in oil, then no problem."

Please note the capital letters beginning the sentences and the
periods ending them.

And, I asked, "Again, why would anyone use a sealed bearing in a
system where it was immersed in oil."

And apparently from your responses to date, you either can't
understand the question or you lack the knowledge to reply.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message

news:nsdflb1kgfsv9g66m...@4ax.com...

Did you actually think no one would notice you contradicting yourself?!!!

Shielded bearings are often used immersed in oil if there's a possibility of
debris damaging an open bearing.

If they're double shielded, you have to rely on lubrication applied during
manufacture or use a special tool to press grease into them.

If they run in oil, all of that is irrelevant (much like you).

[Joerg]

On 2016-06-03 09:36, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 11:40:18 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>> With all the bikes I have I also have a bike for which I built the
>> wheels on old Campy record hub on the back and DuraAce on the
>> front.
>>
>> After getting this bike back from a friend who was saving it for me
>> while I was not in the best of health I rebuilt the wheels with new
>> balls and Campy grease.
>>
>> I have mostly modern wheelsets from Campy or Fulcrum (the people
>> who make the modern Campy hubs etc.) These wheels have sealed
>> bearings. These sort of bothered me when I saw them because of the
>> drag of the seals. You can tell simply spinning the wheels in a
>> stand. But I imagined that with the weight of a person this would
>> be insignificant.
>>
>> For the last couple of days I have been riding the old Look and in
>> fact you CAN feel the difference between the open bearings and the
>> sealed. It does coast much further and with less noise.
>>
>> Has anyone else noticed this?
>
> From the discussion it would appear that the lost of 2% of the
> pedaling energy in the wheel bearings doesn't appear to be noticeable
> to most people.
>

Which brings up a point: Suppose someone will tolerate that, which
sealed bearings are best? Requirements:

1. Industry standard, inexpensive, available everywhere.

2. Can be quickly exchanged without specialty tools.

3. The axles and hub surfaces the bearing touches aren't eaten away.

4. No finicky alignment.

5. QR not required. Actually, not even desired.


I just came back from the umpteenth cone-and-cup alignment for my MTB
and now my fingers are all oil-stained.



> I most surely notice it so I assume that most of you ride well within
> your limits while a large part of my time I am at or near mine. And I
> am not a very fast rider anymore.
>

Careful. I have read in several clinical studies that spending a
substantial time at your cardiovascular limit can take a toll on your
life expectancy. Probably similar to running a car engine a hair below
redline most of the time.

I also used to go full bore for an hour or more during my rides but no
longer do that.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
news:drravh...@mid.individual.net...

Never used any special tools - cartridge bearings usually drift out easy
enough, just use a suitable size flat blade screwdriver from the other side,
work around in a circle so the bearing doesn't lodge half way out.

Its generally best not to hit the new bearing putting it in - use a couple
of sockets the same diameter as the outer race, a length of studding through
the middle and a couple of nuts to tighten and draw the bearings in.

[Joerg]

Thanks, that sounds easy enough. Does the axle slide in like that as
well or does that have some play?

I just looked at a DT Swiss wheel set but it didn't say whether they use
industry standard bearings. WTB has some sealed bearimng sets as well.
It's mainly the MTB I am looking at, the road bike only needs cone
adjustments every six months.

And as usual, bigger = better :-)

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:drrgin...@mid.individual.net...

My experience is with motorcycle wheels - with the axle in both bearings;
any play would be an MOT fail. You can usually tilt the inner race of a
single bearing just a little, but probably not enough to catch the other
bearing to drift it out - the punch has to be long enough and smaller
diameter so you can hold it at an angle. Last time; I used a flat blade
screwdriver, sometimes I've used the handle of a socket wrench. The thread
on the end of the axle is usually slightly smaller diameter - and usually
bevelled end - as you have to pass it through a bearing, you probably won't
be able to angle it enough. Once you have one bearing out - you can hit the
other with anything that fits the hole through the hub.

[Joerg]

Thanks for explaining. With that I was able to find a video that seems
to show the process (2nd half):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhuAQqPXAQ4

[John B.]

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:57:57 +0100, "Ian Field"

Are they? Can you provide evidence of that? Or must we accept your
statements as graven on tablets of stone and carried down from the
mountain?

>If they're double shielded, you have to rely on lubrication applied during
>manufacture or use a special tool to press grease into them.
>
>If they run in oil, all of that is irrelevant (much like you).

Here is what professionals in the business have to say:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/262/grease-to-oil-lubricated

" There are a few key factors that support the use of oil in bearing
applications, including:

1. Oil has the capacity to dissipate heat within rolling bearings.

2. In harsh applications, it flushes away contaminants such as
dirt, dust, moisture and wear metals.

3. Oil can also remedy certain load-related problems, such as ball
or roller skidding.

There are also some drawbacks to oil lubrication, including:

1. Oil systems tend to be more expensive than grease, both in
terms of initial investment and maintenance requirements.

2. There are potential issues involving oil leakage and disposal.

3. The labor required to maintain appropriate levels is greater
with oil than with grease.

In many applications, these drawbacks are insignificant when compared
with the cost of repeated bearing failures and downtime associated
with continued use of grease. "

Again I ask, why would anyone use a sealed bearing in a

system where it was immersed in oil."

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 12:45:58 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Several of those requirements are self limiting, don't you think?

Can be quickly changed without special tools? Probably not, in all
cases. Even in bicycle hubs that use the old cone and ball bearings
you can't change the outer race.

Aren't eaten away? All joints that move wear so even a ball bearing is
ultimately going to wear.

Finicky alignment? if there are two bearings on a single shaft then
they must be aligned. If they are loose, or installed on flexible
mountings of some sort, then the entire shaft will move.

If wheel bearings are really a problem I would think that the hubs
using cartridge bearings, as I believe James mentioned, are probably
the best currently available system. They don't require lubrication,
they can usually be replaced with common hand tools and they seem to
last a long time, Oh yes, they are cheap. I've got a set of wheels
that have been on the bike for a year and, so far, have no looseness
or movement at all. Probably good for a few more years.

>
>I just came back from the umpteenth cone-and-cup alignment for my MTB
>and now my fingers are all oil-stained.
>
>
>
>> I most surely notice it so I assume that most of you ride well within
>> your limits while a large part of my time I am at or near mine. And I
>> am not a very fast rider anymore.
>>
>
>Careful. I have read in several clinical studies that spending a
>substantial time at your cardiovascular limit can take a toll on your
>life expectancy. Probably similar to running a car engine a hair below
>redline most of the time.
>

One of the good things about the human body is that it can adapt to
changes. If you were to subject a 1/4 HP electric motor to a 1/2HP
load it will burn out. If you subject a 1/4HP human to a 1/2HP load it
becomes a 1/2HP human :-)

Read the story of Milo of Croton who was a six-time victor, in the
original Olympics. He was said to have developed his amazing strength
by lifting and carrying on his shoulder a new born calf. He continued
this for four years when he was no longer lifting a calf, but a
four-year-old bull.

Cardiovascular limit is usually the limit of the body's ability to
obtain oxygen (VO2 Max) rather than by the heart's ability to pump
blood. At, say 10 - 15 thousand feet above sea level you can't even
walk fast without gasping for breath.

>I also used to go full bore for an hour or more during my rides but no
>longer do that.

Old age is creeping up behind you :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

Not really. Always look at automotive, they know how it's done. Mainly
because if you want to sell a motor vehicle these days you must give a
multi-year warranty. Car buyers do not put up with the typical one year
on a bicycle. They also will not accept any chickening out like "Oh, but
you must have used it on dirt roads too much and that's not covered".

> Can be quickly changed without special tools? Probably not, in all
> cases. Even in bicycle hubs that use the old cone and ball bearings
> you can't change the outer race.
>

The BB bearings I roached into my old student's bikes could be swapped
out with a simple punch and a hammer with some old jeans fabric wrapped
around it (didn't have a plastic hammer), and for inserting you take
sockets and a screw clamp. I didn't have sockets back then so I used
chunks of pipe. These bearings weren't meant for bicycles but worked
nicely, no more "ka-clunk" from down there. I bought them at a Timken
dealer that catered to industry and farmers. From what Ian described and
from what I saw on Youtube that seems to be similar with wheel bearings.

> Aren't eaten away? All joints that move wear so even a ball bearing is
> ultimately going to wear.
>

The surfaces the bearings reside in or on shall not move or chafe. With
proper bearings they won't.

> Finicky alignment? if there are two bearings on a single shaft then
> they must be aligned. If they are loose, or installed on flexible
> mountings of some sort, then the entire shaft will move.
>

I don't know about bicycle versions but in automotive this is often
solved by one (or both) bearings having slight tolerance in angle from
straight. Or at least was when I still worked on my cars to such extent.
Only fractions of a degree can suffice. Mostly no alignment was
necessary but sometimes there was. You had to set them so they would not
bind. But it was less work than adjusting ye olde cone-cup deal on bicycles.

> If wheel bearings are really a problem I would think that the hubs
> using cartridge bearings, as I believe James mentioned, are probably
> the best currently available system. They don't require lubrication,
> they can usually be replaced with common hand tools and they seem to
> last a long time, Oh yes, they are cheap. I've got a set of wheels
> that have been on the bike for a year and, so far, have no looseness
> or movement at all. Probably good for a few more years.
>

Yep, that will be my next kind of wheel set when this one gives out. But
with industry standard bearings, not ones where you are married to the
company store and potentially fleeced.

>>
>> I just came back from the umpteenth cone-and-cup alignment for my MTB
>> and now my fingers are all oil-stained.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I most surely notice it so I assume that most of you ride well within
>>> your limits while a large part of my time I am at or near mine. And I
>>> am not a very fast rider anymore.
>>>
>>
>> Careful. I have read in several clinical studies that spending a
>> substantial time at your cardiovascular limit can take a toll on your
>> life expectancy. Probably similar to running a car engine a hair below
>> redline most of the time.
>>
>
> One of the good things about the human body is that it can adapt to
> changes. If you were to subject a 1/4 HP electric motor to a 1/2HP
> load it will burn out. If you subject a 1/4HP human to a 1/2HP load it
> becomes a 1/2HP human :-)
>

I didn't keep those magazines, especially after I gradually eased out of
med-tech professionally. The problem is that once a human becomes a
1/2HP human it starts doing endurance sports at 1/2HP and that is not
necessarily healthy for long stretches. Somes studies reported that a
human has a finite number of max power hours in his body, after which
damage and life expectancy reductions can occur. I always thought that
number ought to be high but IIRC it was reported in the low four digits.

> Read the story of Milo of Croton who was a six-time victor, in the
> original Olympics. He was said to have developed his amazing strength
> by lifting and carrying on his shoulder a new born calf. He continued
> this for four years when he was no longer lifting a calf, but a
> four-year-old bull.
>

And then developed L4-5-6 damage in the lower back?

> Cardiovascular limit is usually the limit of the body's ability to
> obtain oxygen (VO2 Max) rather than by the heart's ability to pump
> blood. At, say 10 - 15 thousand feet above sea level you can't even
> walk fast without gasping for breath.
>

True, but the guys doing interval training and stuff like that should
probably watch for max cardiac output.

>> I also used to go full bore for an hour or more during my rides but no
>> longer do that.
>
> Old age is creeping up behind you :-)
>

Oh yeah, I sure feel that :-(

However, I still remember that small wrinkly guy on a MTB who was at
least 20 years older than me and pulled away from me on a steep hill. I
could not catch up to ask him what kind of magic potion he drinks.

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message

news:lthhlbt35208t0o45...@4ax.com...

I absolutely encourage you to use unshielded bearings in any application
where debris might get into them............................

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:drtcsv...@mid.individual.net...

A hide mallet is much better and lasts a lot longer - but also costs more.

Mine is a plastic mallet because I don't use it all that much, and usually
can't remember where I left it.

[Joerg]

And PETA might have a beef with that :-)

I am at a point in life where I am reducing clutter and avoid
accumulating new stuff. So I always try to figure a way to kludge it.

> Mine is a plastic mallet because I don't use it all that much, and
> usually can't remember where I left it.

Ever since I invested in a big tool cabinet that has become easy. All
hammers are in one section of the second drawer from the bottom. If a
particular kind of hammer ain't there then I ain't got it.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/9/2016 2:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-06-09 11:01, Ian Field wrote:
>>
>> A hide mallet is much better and lasts a lot longer - but also costs
>> more.
>
> And PETA might have a beef with that :-)

PETA would object to your phrasing, though. "Have a beef"??? Sacrilege!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ian Field]

"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:njchhf$pmp$1...@dont-email.me...

The alternative is getting porked.........................

[AMuzi]

Joerg's not chicken but PETA is usually crabby.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

On 2016-06-09 13:53, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/9/2016 3:17 PM, Ian Field wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>> news:njchhf$pmp$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 6/9/2016 2:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2016-06-09 11:01, Ian Field wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> A hide mallet is much better and lasts a lot longer -
>>>>> but also costs
>>>>> more.
>>>>
>>>> And PETA might have a beef with that :-)
>>>
>>> PETA would object to your phrasing, though. "Have a
>>> beef"??? Sacrilege!
>>
>> The alternative is getting porked.........................
>
> Joerg's not chicken but PETA is usually crabby.
>

Now they are really having a cow :-)

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:dru471...@mid.individual.net...

They would if they got sold a pup.

[John B.]

On Thu, 09 Jun 2016 07:31:02 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Yes, you are correct. I had though that we were talking about the
wheels.

>
>> Aren't eaten away? All joints that move wear so even a ball bearing is
>> ultimately going to wear.
>>
>
>The surfaces the bearings reside in or on shall not move or chafe. With
>proper bearings they won't.

I don't know where you get that but every single bearing I have ever
seen exhibited wear relative to its use,

>
>> Finicky alignment? if there are two bearings on a single shaft then
>> they must be aligned. If they are loose, or installed on flexible
>> mountings of some sort, then the entire shaft will move.
>>
>
>I don't know about bicycle versions but in automotive this is often
>solved by one (or both) bearings having slight tolerance in angle from
>straight. Or at least was when I still worked on my cars to such extent.
>Only fractions of a degree can suffice. Mostly no alignment was
>necessary but sometimes there was. You had to set them so they would not
>bind. But it was less work than adjusting ye olde cone-cup deal on bicycles.
>

Sure, sort of like the drive shaft bearings in a rear wheel drive
vehicle. The drive shaft bearing are rubber mounted and you can see
the whole shaft shaking if the shafts aren't correctly balanced. I'm
not too sure that is what one wants that on the front wheel of their
bicycle.

>
>> If wheel bearings are really a problem I would think that the hubs
>> using cartridge bearings, as I believe James mentioned, are probably
>> the best currently available system. They don't require lubrication,
>> they can usually be replaced with common hand tools and they seem to
>> last a long time, Oh yes, they are cheap. I've got a set of wheels
>> that have been on the bike for a year and, so far, have no looseness
>> or movement at all. Probably good for a few more years.
>>
>
>Yep, that will be my next kind of wheel set when this one gives out. But
>with industry standard bearings, not ones where you are married to the
>company store and potentially fleeced.

To be honest, I have never seen a preparatory bearing, although I'm
sure that there are some. I learned my lesson when I needed to change
the rear axle bearings on an International truck. Went to the truck
dealer and, Gulp, $10 a piece and I needed 4 pieces. Note, this was
maybe forty years ago when $40 was a LOT of money. I was sort of
dithering there as I really did need the bearings and the Parts Guy
sort of looked over his shoulder to see if anyone was listening and
said, "try at the "Bearing Shop". So I did, $2.25 each.

Interestingly, at one time a Chevrolet and a Cadillac used the same
rear axle bearings. The price at the Cadillac Dealer was almost
exactly twice what it was at the Chevrolet Dealer.

Nope you have to lift the calf every day. Today he weighs 10 lbs.,
tomorrow 10 lbs, one ounce, and so on. An ounce a day won't break your
back,

The world record for the deadlift, seems to be something like 460.4
kg (1,015 lb)

>
>> Cardiovascular limit is usually the limit of the body's ability to
>> obtain oxygen (VO2 Max) rather than by the heart's ability to pump
>> blood. At, say 10 - 15 thousand feet above sea level you can't even
>> walk fast without gasping for breath.
>>
>
>True, but the guys doing interval training and stuff like that should
>probably watch for max cardiac output.
>

I don't know but I did read one research abstract that said, "No
differences in the lipid profile or serum levels of inflammatory,
myocardial and skeletal muscle damage markers were observed after the
training period. The study results agree with the effectiveness of a
30 s all-out training program with a reduced time commitment for
anthropometric, aerobic and anaerobic adaptation and eliminate doubts
about its safety as a model."

>
>>> I also used to go full bore for an hour or more during my rides but no
>>> longer do that.
>>
>> Old age is creeping up behind you :-)
>>
>
>Oh yeah, I sure feel that :-(
>
>However, I still remember that small wrinkly guy on a MTB who was at
>least 20 years older than me and pulled away from me on a steep hill. I
>could not catch up to ask him what kind of magic potion he drinks.
--

cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 18:56:00 +0100, "Ian Field"

Right, the expert speaks. But not with any evidence or proof. Just "I
said so".

I must say, a really informative post. And, I might add, provides
ample evidence why V-brakes don't work.

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Why would one pound on the end of a punch, likely made from steel,
with a soft faced hammer?
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

On 2016-06-09 22:04, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Jun 2016 07:31:02 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2016-06-08 19:27, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 12:45:58 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2016-06-03 09:36, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 11:40:18 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com
>>>>> wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> Aren't eaten away? All joints that move wear so even a ball bearing is
>>> ultimately going to wear.
>>>
>>
>> The surfaces the bearings reside in or on shall not move or chafe. With
>> proper bearings they won't.
>
> I don't know where you get that but every single bearing I have ever
> seen exhibited wear relative to its use,
>

Sure. What I meant was that I expect the wear to be limited to the
bearing itself and not the surfaces it sits on. Which means that the
bearings must not move around in their position and should also not fail
in a way where they bind up. IOW they should fail by developing play
inside or a rattle but not via lube loss.

>>
>>> Finicky alignment? if there are two bearings on a single shaft then
>>> they must be aligned. If they are loose, or installed on flexible
>>> mountings of some sort, then the entire shaft will move.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know about bicycle versions but in automotive this is often
>> solved by one (or both) bearings having slight tolerance in angle from
>> straight. Or at least was when I still worked on my cars to such extent.
>> Only fractions of a degree can suffice. Mostly no alignment was
>> necessary but sometimes there was. You had to set them so they would not
>> bind. But it was less work than adjusting ye olde cone-cup deal on bicycles.
>>
> Sure, sort of like the drive shaft bearings in a rear wheel drive
> vehicle. The drive shaft bearing are rubber mounted and you can see
> the whole shaft shaking if the shafts aren't correctly balanced. I'm
> not too sure that is what one wants that on the front wheel of their
> bicycle.
>

Not that way. There are bearings where no rubber or any sort of
compliant mounting is required but where the inner race can tilt a
fraction of a degree versus the outer bearing. Without binding and
without losing seal. This can accommodate the inevitable shaft flex on a
bicycle (riding on rough turf) and also small imperfections in alignment
of the bearing seats.

>>
>>> If wheel bearings are really a problem I would think that the hubs
>>> using cartridge bearings, as I believe James mentioned, are probably
>>> the best currently available system. They don't require lubrication,
>>> they can usually be replaced with common hand tools and they seem to
>>> last a long time, Oh yes, they are cheap. I've got a set of wheels
>>> that have been on the bike for a year and, so far, have no looseness
>>> or movement at all. Probably good for a few more years.
>>>
>>
>> Yep, that will be my next kind of wheel set when this one gives out. But
>> with industry standard bearings, not ones where you are married to the
>> company store and potentially fleeced.
>
> To be honest, I have never seen a preparatory bearing, although I'm
> sure that there are some. I learned my lesson when I needed to change
> the rear axle bearings on an International truck. Went to the truck
> dealer and, Gulp, $10 a piece and I needed 4 pieces. Note, this was
> maybe forty years ago when $40 was a LOT of money. I was sort of
> dithering there as I really did need the bearings and the Parts Guy
> sort of looked over his shoulder to see if anyone was listening and
> said, "try at the "Bearing Shop". So I did, $2.25 each.
>

That's what I learned when I noticed a Timken outlet in the middle of
nowhere on one of my bike rides as a student. Almost blew by, turned
around, wondering what that place is and then ... "Aha!"

Not so much for saving money but because bicycle stuff if often of
despicably low quality and there I could buy the good stuff. Sure
enough, their bearings lasted. Later I did similar things with cars.
After the water pump of my Chrysler had made a major puddle ... again
... I adapted a Mercedes-Benz pump and that never leaked.

> Interestingly, at one time a Chevrolet and a Cadillac used the same
> rear axle bearings. The price at the Cadillac Dealer was almost
> exactly twice what it was at the Chevrolet Dealer.
>

Sometimes it's the other way around. A friend was initially wondering
why a Hudson weighed around 500lbs less than a Chevy of comparable
price. x breakdowns later he knew. Eventually the Hudson brand vanished.

[...]

>>
>>> Read the story of Milo of Croton who was a six-time victor, in the
>>> original Olympics. He was said to have developed his amazing strength
>>> by lifting and carrying on his shoulder a new born calf. He continued
>>> this for four years when he was no longer lifting a calf, but a
>>> four-year-old bull.
>>>
>>
>> And then developed L4-5-6 damage in the lower back?
>
> Nope you have to lift the calf every day. Today he weighs 10 lbs.,
> tomorrow 10 lbs, one ounce, and so on. An ounce a day won't break your
> back,
>

The various docs that investigated my not so good lower back were of a
very different opinion.

> The world record for the deadlift, seems to be something like 460.4
> kg (1,015 lb)
>

That is a lot. But some of those sporting heroes aer ruining their
bodies. Even popular sports can do that. I knew people who could barely
walk and not ride bicycles anymore even in their late 20's and early
30's. All worn out from too much soccer. It only took about a decade of
that to thoroughly mess them up.

>>
>>> Cardiovascular limit is usually the limit of the body's ability to
>>> obtain oxygen (VO2 Max) rather than by the heart's ability to pump
>>> blood. At, say 10 - 15 thousand feet above sea level you can't even
>>> walk fast without gasping for breath.
>>>
>>
>> True, but the guys doing interval training and stuff like that should
>> probably watch for max cardiac output.
>>
> I don't know but I did read one research abstract that said, "No
> differences in the lipid profile or serum levels of inflammatory,
> myocardial and skeletal muscle damage markers were observed after the
> training period. The study results agree with the effectiveness of a
> 30 s all-out training program with a reduced time commitment for
> anthropometric, aerobic and anaerobic adaptation and eliminate doubts
> about its safety as a model."

Well, it's you heart, not mine :-)

[...]

[Joerg]

To accelerate that punch in a more graceful way and not with a jolt.
When the punch is properly wedge to the target thet can be considered
one. This will not work if you don't seat the punch first but let it
shoot in.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

John - is there some reason that you're being irritating? Or do you have a bicycle application for bearings that run in an oil bath?

[Ian Field]

<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9e1d3534-6a9d-4def...@googlegroups.com...

Its just his nature...............

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message

news:7uiklbdfg7pd338vs...@4ax.com...

You're the fuckwit - you tell me...................

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
news:drtcsv...@mid.individual.net...

AFAIK: all ball type cartridge bearings have a very small amount of tilt
play - its pretty much a fortuitous side effect that they can tolerate a
small misalignment when 2 or more bearings carry a shaft.

Most multi-cylinder motorcycles have shell bearings just like cars because
cartridge bearings in the middle of the crankshaft would be a bit
impractical. Generally small singles have cartridge main bearings - usually
one of those will be a caged roller bearing. I always assumed that was to
minimise crankshaft flexing.

The gearbox usually has regular ball type cartridge bearings, but sometimes
I've found caged roller bearings on the clutch basket - some even go as
cheap as a phosphor-bronze sleeve bearing.

[Joerg]

On 2016-06-10 11:09, Ian Field wrote:
>
>
> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
> news:drtcsv...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 2016-06-08 19:27, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> Finicky alignment? if there are two bearings on a single shaft then
>>> they must be aligned. If they are loose, or installed on flexible
>>> mountings of some sort, then the entire shaft will move.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know about bicycle versions but in automotive this is often
>> solved by one (or both) bearings having slight tolerance in angle from
>> straight. Or at least was when I still worked on my cars to such
>> extent. Only fractions of a degree can suffice. Mostly no alignment
>> was necessary but sometimes there was. You had to set them so they
>> would not bind. But it was less work than adjusting ye olde cone-cup
>> deal on bicycles.
>
> AFAIK: all ball type cartridge bearings have a very small amount of tilt
> play - its pretty much a fortuitous side effect that they can tolerate a
> small misalignment when 2 or more bearings carry a shaft.
>

There also should be a wee bit of sideways play in at least one bearing
since in a bike the shaft will be steel and the hub aluminum, meaning
two different thermal expansion factors. But probably less critical
because bicycles aren't built for the mileage life of cars. A slight bit
of slack in the axle to inner race fit might be ok as well. On my MTB I
let bearing play go for a little until it's more than 10mils at the rim.
Else I'd be taking the wheel out a lot.

> Most multi-cylinder motorcycles have shell bearings just like cars
> because cartridge bearings in the middle of the crankshaft would be a
> bit impractical. Generally small singles have cartridge main bearings -
> usually one of those will be a caged roller bearing. I always assumed
> that was to minimise crankshaft flexing.
>
> The gearbox usually has regular ball type cartridge bearings, but
> sometimes I've found caged roller bearings on the clutch basket - some
> even go as cheap as a phosphor-bronze sleeve bearing.

A machinist recently told me that there is a new method where they
purposely break shafts but in a controlled fashion and with very uneven
break surface. After installing the center bearings it gets put together
again. I don't remember if that was still in research though.

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:ds0k5e...@mid.individual.net...

> On 2016-06-10 11:09, Ian Field wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
>> news:drtcsv...@mid.individual.net...
>>> On 2016-06-08 19:27, John B. wrote:
>
>
> [...]
>
>
>>>
>>>> Finicky alignment? if there are two bearings on a single shaft then
>>>> they must be aligned. If they are loose, or installed on flexible
>>>> mountings of some sort, then the entire shaft will move.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know about bicycle versions but in automotive this is often
>>> solved by one (or both) bearings having slight tolerance in angle from
>>> straight. Or at least was when I still worked on my cars to such
>>> extent. Only fractions of a degree can suffice. Mostly no alignment
>>> was necessary but sometimes there was. You had to set them so they
>>> would not bind. But it was less work than adjusting ye olde cone-cup
>>> deal on bicycles.
>>
>> AFAIK: all ball type cartridge bearings have a very small amount of tilt
>> play - its pretty much a fortuitous side effect that they can tolerate a
>> small misalignment when 2 or more bearings carry a shaft.
>>
>
> There also should be a wee bit of sideways play in at least one bearing
> since in a bike the shaft will be steel and the hub aluminum, meaning two
> different thermal expansion factors.

On a motorcycle; any play in any direction is an MOT fail.

The hub is usually aluminium and a mild steel spacer tube sits between the 2
inner races. Thermal expansion of the hub could even be one of the causes of
wear.

Once or twice I've got away with worn bearings by standing on the wrench
handle to tighten the axle before tightening up the clamp bolts. Usually
have to replace the spacer as well as the bearings after that though.

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:ds0k5e...@mid.individual.net...

If it was any good - they'd have started using it on 2-stroke twins.

Shell bearings won't do in a high performance 2-stroke, so they have to use
cartridge bearings. Easy enough on a single, but a twin means a pressed up
crankshaft. Its not easy even for the factory to keep it perfectly lined up
during pressing, so it not a cheap manufacturing step.

[Joerg]

On 2016-06-10 13:48, Ian Field wrote:
>
>
> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
> news:ds0k5e...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 2016-06-10 11:09, Ian Field wrote:

[...]

>>> Most multi-cylinder motorcycles have shell bearings just like cars
>>> because cartridge bearings in the middle of the crankshaft would be a
>>> bit impractical. Generally small singles have cartridge main bearings -
>>> usually one of those will be a caged roller bearing. I always assumed
>>> that was to minimise crankshaft flexing.
>>>
>>> The gearbox usually has regular ball type cartridge bearings, but
>>> sometimes I've found caged roller bearings on the clutch basket - some
>>> even go as cheap as a phosphor-bronze sleeve bearing.
>>
>>
>> A machinist recently told me that there is a new method where they
>> purposely break shafts but in a controlled fashion and with very
>> uneven break surface. After installing the center bearings it gets put
>> together again. I don't remember if that was still in research though.
>
> If it was any good - they'd have started using it on 2-stroke twins.
>
> Shell bearings won't do in a high performance 2-stroke, so they have to
> use cartridge bearings. Easy enough on a single, but a twin means a
> pressed up crankshaft. Its not easy even for the factory to keep it
> perfectly lined up during pressing, so it not a cheap manufacturing step.

IIRC he said it is a very recent development. 2-strokes are gone long
since. They would not pass CA emissions.

I enjoyed that "standing on the wrench handle" comment in your other
post. I've done that so many times on my old Citroen. Mostly because
stuff simply would not come off. Mostly on account of massive amounts of
rust.

[John B.]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 07:16:52 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

wrote:

>On 2016-06-09 22:04, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 09 Jun 2016 07:31:02 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2016-06-08 19:27, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 12:45:58 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2016-06-03 09:36, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 11:40:18 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>>
>>>> Aren't eaten away? All joints that move wear so even a ball bearing is
>>>> ultimately going to wear.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The surfaces the bearings reside in or on shall not move or chafe. With
>>> proper bearings they won't.
>>
>> I don't know where you get that but every single bearing I have ever
>> seen exhibited wear relative to its use,
>>
>
>Sure. What I meant was that I expect the wear to be limited to the
>bearing itself and not the surfaces it sits on. Which means that the
>bearings must not move around in their position and should also not fail
>in a way where they bind up. IOW they should fail by developing play
>inside or a rattle but not via lube loss.

But properly mounted bearing don't moved around and failing by locking
up implies some sort of lack of lubrication or dirt getting into the
bearing.

>>>
>>>> Finicky alignment? if there are two bearings on a single shaft then
>>>> they must be aligned. If they are loose, or installed on flexible
>>>> mountings of some sort, then the entire shaft will move.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know about bicycle versions but in automotive this is often
>>> solved by one (or both) bearings having slight tolerance in angle from
>>> straight. Or at least was when I still worked on my cars to such extent.
>>> Only fractions of a degree can suffice. Mostly no alignment was
>>> necessary but sometimes there was. You had to set them so they would not
>>> bind. But it was less work than adjusting ye olde cone-cup deal on bicycles.
>>>
>> Sure, sort of like the drive shaft bearings in a rear wheel drive
>> vehicle. The drive shaft bearing are rubber mounted and you can see
>> the whole shaft shaking if the shafts aren't correctly balanced. I'm
>> not too sure that is what one wants that on the front wheel of their
>> bicycle.
>
>Not that way. There are bearings where no rubber or any sort of
>compliant mounting is required but where the inner race can tilt a
>fraction of a degree versus the outer bearing. Without binding and
>without losing seal. This can accommodate the inevitable shaft flex on a
>bicycle (riding on rough turf) and also small imperfections in alignment
>of the bearing seats.

Yes, those are self aligning bearings. the mounting is fixed but the
race can move at an oblique, slightly. They seem to be made in single
row and double row and with and without seals. But, a quick check
seems to shot that about a 30mm O.D. is a "small" one although I only
checked BMT.

The Hudson Hornet was considered a very "racy" car. It was relatively
light and had a twin carb engine that produced, stock, 145 hp. and was
raced very successfully in the early NASCAR days,
Driving Today wrote "Hudson was the first automobile manufacturer to
get involved in stock car racing. The Hornet "dominated stock car
racing in the early-1950s, when stock car racers actually raced stock
cars."

>[...]
>
>>>
>>>> Read the story of Milo of Croton who was a six-time victor, in the
>>>> original Olympics. He was said to have developed his amazing strength
>>>> by lifting and carrying on his shoulder a new born calf. He continued
>>>> this for four years when he was no longer lifting a calf, but a
>>>> four-year-old bull.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And then developed L4-5-6 damage in the lower back?
>>
>> Nope you have to lift the calf every day. Today he weighs 10 lbs.,
>> tomorrow 10 lbs, one ounce, and so on. An ounce a day won't break your
>> back,
>>
>
>The various docs that investigated my not so good lower back were of a
>very different opinion.
>
>
>> The world record for the deadlift, seems to be something like 460.4
>> kg (1,015 lb)
>>
>
>That is a lot. But some of those sporting heroes aer ruining their
>bodies. Even popular sports can do that. I knew people who could barely
>walk and not ride bicycles anymore even in their late 20's and early
>30's. All worn out from too much soccer. It only took about a decade of
>that to thoroughly mess them up.

There was a survey made, it may have been at the Mexico Olympics,
where the question was asked,"If there was a pill that you could take
that would guarantee that you win your event, but that you would die
10 years later, would you take it". The overwhelming response from the
athletes was, "YES".

>>>
>>>> Cardiovascular limit is usually the limit of the body's ability to
>>>> obtain oxygen (VO2 Max) rather than by the heart's ability to pump
>>>> blood. At, say 10 - 15 thousand feet above sea level you can't even
>>>> walk fast without gasping for breath.
>>>>
>>>
>>> True, but the guys doing interval training and stuff like that should
>>> probably watch for max cardiac output.
>>>
>> I don't know but I did read one research abstract that said, "No
>> differences in the lipid profile or serum levels of inflammatory,
>> myocardial and skeletal muscle damage markers were observed after the
>> training period. The study results agree with the effectiveness of a
>> 30 s all-out training program with a reduced time commitment for
>> anthropometric, aerobic and anaerobic adaptation and eliminate doubts
>> about its safety as a model."
>
>
>Well, it's you heart, not mine :-)
>
>[...]
--

cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 07:19:20 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

If you hit the punch with a energy of X and a velocity of Y that
force will be transmitted to the other end of the punch, with some
losses due to accelerating the mass of the punch. It doesn't matter
whether you hit the punch with a pillow off the bed or an atom bomb,
the formula doesn't change it is always mass and velocity.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I was responding to a post that discussed sealed bearing in an oil
bath and asking why?

And, yes I was being deliberately irritating, toward an individual who
made a blanket assessment of the entire group as "fuckwits".
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 18:53:24 +0100, "Ian Field"

Yes, it is. I resent being termed a "fuckwit" by an individual who,
unable to make his bicycle brake work, blames others for his own
shortcomings.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

Not quite. You do not hit with brute force in such situations. You "tap
it out". Now if the punch is not seated first you'd have to accelerate
the whole mass of the punch which then lands on the bering race and that
can put a gash into the bearing seat (hub). If the punch is already
seated only little tapping is required.

[Joerg]

On 2016-06-10 21:08, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 07:16:52 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2016-06-09 22:04, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 09 Jun 2016 07:31:02 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2016-06-08 19:27, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>> Sure, sort of like the drive shaft bearings in a rear wheel drive
>>> vehicle. The drive shaft bearing are rubber mounted and you can see
>>> the whole shaft shaking if the shafts aren't correctly balanced. I'm
>>> not too sure that is what one wants that on the front wheel of their
>>> bicycle.
>>
>> Not that way. There are bearings where no rubber or any sort of
>> compliant mounting is required but where the inner race can tilt a
>> fraction of a degree versus the outer bearing. Without binding and
>> without losing seal. This can accommodate the inevitable shaft flex on a
>> bicycle (riding on rough turf) and also small imperfections in alignment
>> of the bearing seats.
>
> Yes, those are self aligning bearings. the mounting is fixed but the
> race can move at an oblique, slightly. They seem to be made in single
> row and double row and with and without seals. But, a quick check
> seems to shot that about a 30mm O.D. is a "small" one although I only
> checked BMT.

30mm O.D. is the minimum I'd want in a hub.

I meant the regular family sedans. Most comapnies have race styles that
are often very good. Where the true quality level of a manufacturer
comes to light is in sedans and SUVs for regular folks.

[...]

>>> The world record for the deadlift, seems to be something like 460.4
>>> kg (1,015 lb)
>>>
>>
>> That is a lot. But some of those sporting heroes aer ruining their
>> bodies. Even popular sports can do that. I knew people who could barely
>> walk and not ride bicycles anymore even in their late 20's and early
>> 30's. All worn out from too much soccer. It only took about a decade of
>> that to thoroughly mess them up.
>
> There was a survey made, it may have been at the Mexico Olympics,
> where the question was asked,"If there was a pill that you could take
> that would guarantee that you win your event, but that you would die
> 10 years later, would you take it". The overwhelming response from the
> athletes was, "YES".
>

That's almost the attitude I found in many German soccer players. "I
want that we win!" and then they play hard even though the doc said to
take it easy for three more months. And those docs were sports docs who
know their stuff.

[Ralph Barone]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 09:47:49 -0700 (PDT),

<snip>

>>>>>>>>>>>> Bearings with metal shield on one or both sides aren't exactly rare
>>>>>>>>>>>> though.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If they run immersed in oil, then no problem. I vaguely remember
>>>>>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>> advert for a grease gun/ram device you clamp metal shield bearings
>>>>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> force grease in - if you try that with a seal bearing; the seal pops
>>>>>>>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why would a bearing immersed in oil require a seal?

Why hasn't anybody else pointed out that a shielded bearing isn't sealed?
It's a subtle point, but it sure bridges a lot of ground in this debate.
I think Ian alluded to it, but didn't outright say it. A shielded bearing
has metal shields on the sides that CANNOT contact both inner and outer
races, otherwise the bearing won't turn. A sealed bearing, on the other
hand, has a flexible seal between the inner and outer races which is meant
to prevent stuff getting in or out. Therefore, a shielded bearing in an
oil bath makes some sense (oil gets in, but big chunks of dirt or adjacent
failed bearing stays out).

[AMuzi]

Why? Mostly because those who have read the first few pages
of an SKS or NTN bearing book are bored with this thread and
those who have not continue to speculate about some other
world unlike the one we actually have here.

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message

news:m74nlb5h583qqhmdh...@4ax.com...

You were the only one whittering on about seal bearings immersed in oil.

I was talking about shield bearings in oil - you subverted that and hoped no
one would notice.

[Ian Field]

"Ralph Barone" <ra...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:njhcfp$767$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

> John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 09:47:49 -0700 (PDT),
>
> <snip>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bearings with metal shield on one or both sides aren't exactly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rare
>>>>>>>>>>>>> though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If they run immersed in oil, then no problem. I vaguely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> advert for a grease gun/ram device you clamp metal shield
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bearings
>>>>>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> force grease in - if you try that with a seal bearing; the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> seal pops
>>>>>>>>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why would a bearing immersed in oil require a seal?
>
> Why hasn't anybody else pointed out that a shielded bearing isn't sealed?

John.B deliberately subverted what I said and hoped no one would notice -
apparently; not many did!

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:ds0pmv...@mid.individual.net...

The secret weapon for that is the; "rattle gun". Traditionally pneumatic,
but I believe you can get cordless rechargeable ones now.

[Joerg]

You mean an impact driver? I just got one of those and it is amazing. It
can get totally recalcitrant deck screws out ... rat-tat-tat ... done.
But the Citroen stuff would be no match for it. I had to slip a fence
post pipe over the massive wrench and still lean in.

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:ds34ao...@mid.individual.net...

In UK terminology; "impact driver" is purely mechanical. It has a heavy
solid handle and a spring loaded cam between that and the bit chuck. You
smack it with a hammer and the inertia of the handle works against the stuck
bolt.

[Ian Field]

"Phil W Lee" <ph...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote in message
news:s3polbl8655e1epl8...@4ax.com...
> "Ian Field" <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> considered Fri, 10 Jun

> I'm not familiar with more recent designs, but it certainly used to be
> common to have caged rollers for main and big-end bearings.
> Of course, the down-side is that you must have a built-up multi-piece
> crankshaft in order to get the bearings into their correct locations,
> but you need to do that even on a single cylinder engine in order to
> fit the big-end bearing.

The big end bearing was almost always a caged needle roller bearing as the
big end ankle would be rather big with a roller bearing.

Once on a motorcycle group, I commented that the police motorcycle on a
50s/60s police drama was pretty good at laying smoke screen - apparently
those old ones had plain conrod bearings and needed a high oil ratio. Since
that would mean pretty big carburetor jets, they couldn't have been very
efficient.

More oil = thicker petrol, so bigger jets = normal fuel flow - but not all
the oil burns, and it contains some of the petrol.

[Joerg]

Not on this side of the pond. Here is the one I've got:

https://www.ryobitools.com/products/details/456

It can drive and remove screws making them so hot that fingers get
burned if touching them.


> ... It has a heavy

> solid handle and a spring loaded cam between that and the bit chuck. You
> smack it with a hammer and the inertia of the handle works against the
> stuck bolt.

That sounds like a tool from the days of King George I :-)

[John B.]

On Sat, 11 Jun 2016 07:51:56 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

It doesn't make any difference. If you only tap it with your delicate
little finger exactly the same thing applies - mass and force.

I do of course, agree that ensuring that the punch is making good
contact with the bearing race before you hit it is a good practice,
although I have found that bearing races are likely to be hard and not
easily "dentable".
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 11 Jun 2016 07:57:39 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

I believe that the dimensions I found was O.D. 30mm, I.D. 10mm and 14
mm in width. I've got a pair of Shimano hubs for disk brakes that are
thick enough that the might be bored out to take a 30mm bearing.

The twin carb Hudson was a family sedan. Honestly. I knew a guy that
owned one.
Of course the NASCA cars probably didn't have the same interior but
this was back in the days that NASCAR cars were largely stock, unlike
today's purpose build race cars.

>
>[...]
>
>
>>>> The world record for the deadlift, seems to be something like 460.4
>>>> kg (1,015 lb)
>>>>
>>>
>>> That is a lot. But some of those sporting heroes aer ruining their
>>> bodies. Even popular sports can do that. I knew people who could barely
>>> walk and not ride bicycles anymore even in their late 20's and early
>>> 30's. All worn out from too much soccer. It only took about a decade of
>>> that to thoroughly mess them up.
>>
>> There was a survey made, it may have been at the Mexico Olympics,
>> where the question was asked,"If there was a pill that you could take
>> that would guarantee that you win your event, but that you would die
>> 10 years later, would you take it". The overwhelming response from the
>> athletes was, "YES".
>>
>
>That's almost the attitude I found in many German soccer players. "I
>want that we win!" and then they play hard even though the doc said to
>take it easy for three more months. And those docs were sports docs who
>know their stuff.

There was a small book, written by the head of the drug testing
laboratory during the Melbourne (I think) Olympics, that discusses
performance enhancing drugs. Apparently they date back to toe original
Greek Games. British "Jump Jockeys" ride with injuries, probably as
long as they can get away with it, although that is likely a financial
decision - no ride, no pay.

I think that most people dedicated to any activity will pursue it,
sometimes perhaps foolishly :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Since I "subvert" your remarks I shall not comment other than to say
"read the URL", but do see:
http://www.super-shopper.co.uk/impact-driver-uk/products/
--
cheers,

John B.

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message

news:mgnplbh3v97mpc25l...@4ax.com...

I was being kind - more likely you just don't know.

[Ian Field]

"Phil W Lee" <ph...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote in message

news:t4frlbhrv0114kqe5...@4ax.com...
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Sat, 11 Jun 2016

> Nothing of the sort - they were the ONLY tool capable of removing
> cross-point screws from Japanese motorcycle engine casings without
> damage - which is partly why such screws were replaced by Allen screws
> by most owners at the earliest opportunity.


The problem was caused by European/Philips screwdriver bits having a longer
thinner pointy end. The point bottoms in the crosspoint recess and the sides
barely overlap.

Originally, I'd "cold form" it by putting the impact chuck on an extension
bar and beat the crap out of it with the biggest hammer to hand. Then I
noticed that the center of the crosspoint recess was peened shiny and the
sides barely touched. Now I just graze the pointy end of the impact bit on
the bench grinder and no more churned screw heads.

[John B.]

Your problem is that the heads of screws in the Japanese motorcycles
weren't Philips heads. They were JIS heads - ( (Japanese Industrial
Standard) screws.

Ah well, square pegs and round holes...
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 22:14:20 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>"Ian Field" <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> considered Sat, 11 Jun

>That would be the small end, which of course is accessible by removing
>the gudgeon pin (wrist pin in USian).
>The big-ends and mains, being effectively non-replaceable (well, you
>could replace the crankshaft and con-rods, and sometimes get a
>remanufactured unit in exchange, but it was still vastly expensive),
>were usually much more substantial.

Actually not, at least, in the past, in the U.S. motorcycle world. I
have had Harley Davidson cranks (three piece) assembled for a couple
of dollars. It was some years ago now, but most of the larger shops
assembled, or maybe reassembled, press together cranks as a routine
thing.

>>Once on a motorcycle group, I commented that the police motorcycle on a
>>50s/60s police drama was pretty good at laying smoke screen - apparently
>>those old ones had plain conrod bearings and needed a high oil ratio. Since
>>that would mean pretty big carburetor jets, they couldn't have been very
>>efficient.
>

>Older engines (and the oils they ran on) did have to run at higher
>concentrations, but I'm surprised that even with a high concentration
>it was possible to run a plain bearing, so would be interested to know
>the model concerned.

I had a 40 - something Royal Enfield "Bullet" that had a plain bearing
rod bearing :-) I believe that the Bullet is still being manufactured
in India.

>Later on, 2-strokes started using direct injection of the oil,
>independently of the petrol, so that it could be better metered and
>less wasted, while better oils burned more completely and gave lower
>smoke.

>>
>>More oil = thicker petrol, so bigger jets = normal fuel flow - but not all
>>the oil burns, and it contains some of the petrol.
>

>Yes, they were very inefficient as well, as the oil (particularly the
>earlier oils) impeded full combustion of the fuel.
--
cheers,

John B.