how many bearings does a single speed bike have?

[Emanuel Berg]

rear hub 3
crank/BB 2
pedals 2
front wheel 2
fork + 2
------
11

rear hub: 3 big, 1 small

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

[John B.]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 03:01:05 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>rear hub 3
>crank/BB 2
>pedals 2
>front wheel 2
>fork + 2
> ------
> 11
>
>rear hub: 3 big, 1 small

Well, except for a "fixie" :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, July 29, 2017 at 9:01:10 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> rear hub 3
> crank/BB 2
> pedals 2
> front wheel 2
> fork + 2
> ------
> 11
>
> rear hub: 3 big, 1 small

Doesn't it have two pedals?

- Frank Krygowski

[Emanuel Berg]

Emanuel Berg wrote:

> rear hub 3
> crank/BB 2
> pedals 2
> front wheel 2
> fork + 2
> ------
> 11
>
> rear hub: 3 big, 1 small

I mean "2 big, 1 small". (You have to listen to
what I think, not what I type.) But it is
correct in the calculation so total remains 11.

The Torpedo 3 SP has 3 bearings as well,
2 big, 1 small, but it also has
a roller bearing.

The Shimano 3 SP seems to have 2 big bearings,
and 1 planet carrier, if that counts?

The Shimano casette freewheel seems to have
2 small bearings.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. wrote:

> Well, except for a "fixie" :-)

Indeed.

Does this (number of bearings) ever change save
for the rear hub?

If it doesn't, it would seem it is yet another
sign that the bike hasn't changed that much
thru the ages.

[Emanuel Berg]

Frank Krygowski wrote:

> Doesn't it have two pedals?

Yes, that's what it says: Pedals - 2

OK, now it should be correct:

rear hub 3
crank/BB 2

pedals 2*2=4

front wheel 2
fork + 2
------

13

Hey, maybe bikes aren't that simple after all? :)

[avag...@gmail.com]

How many bearings has a wooden boat ?

[Emanuel Berg]

avagadro7 wrote:

> How many bearings has a wooden boat?

u r in the wrong forum

https://www.google.se/search?q=wooden+boat&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=qGl9WfbnJaaQ6QSQtIeYCw

[John B.]

Belongs to Long John Silver :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 06:17:05 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>> Doesn't it have two pedals?
>
>Yes, that's what it says: Pedals - 2
>
>OK, now it should be correct:
>
> rear hub 3
> crank/BB 2
> pedals 2*2=4
> front wheel 2
> fork + 2
> ------
> 13
>
>Hey, maybe bikes aren't that simple after all? :)

Buy the cheaper pedals that have no bearings at all and you are down
to 9 bearings.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 05:55:37 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>Emanuel Berg wrote:
>
>> rear hub 3
>> crank/BB 2
>> pedals 2
>> front wheel 2
>> fork + 2
>> ------
>> 11
>>
>> rear hub: 3 big, 1 small
>
>I mean "2 big, 1 small". (You have to listen to
>what I think, not what I type.) But it is
>correct in the calculation so total remains 11.
>
>The Torpedo 3 SP has 3 bearings as well,
>2 big, 1 small, but it also has
>a roller bearing.
>
>The Shimano 3 SP seems to have 2 big bearings,
>and 1 planet carrier, if that counts?
>
>The Shimano casette freewheel seems to have
>2 small bearings.

Given that the bearings you are counting are simply a bunch of balls
maybe you need to get down to fundamentals and count the balls
themselves.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 05:57:46 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>John B. wrote:
>
>> Well, except for a "fixie" :-)
>
>Indeed.
>
>Does this (number of bearings) ever change save
>for the rear hub?
>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmsWmx2wCyQ

>If it doesn't, it would seem it is yet another
>sign that the bike hasn't changed that much
>thru the ages.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. wrote:

> Given that the bearings you are counting are
> simply a bunch of balls maybe you need to get
> down to fundamentals and count the
> balls themselves.

Great idea! Only... with the exception of the
branded rear hubs, do the balls really occur
with any regularity from bike to bike?

I know that in the front wheel hub sometimes
the balls run loose and sometimes they are in
a retainer.

[AMuzi]

On 7/29/2017 10:55 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Emanuel Berg wrote:
>
>> rear hub 3
>> crank/BB 2
>> pedals 2
>> front wheel 2
>> fork + 2
>> ------
>> 11
>>
>> rear hub: 3 big, 1 small
>
> I mean "2 big, 1 small". (You have to listen to
> what I think, not what I type.) But it is
> correct in the calculation so total remains 11.
>
> The Torpedo 3 SP has 3 bearings as well,
> 2 big, 1 small, but it also has
> a roller bearing.
>
> The Shimano 3 SP seems to have 2 big bearings,
> and 1 planet carrier, if that counts?
>
> The Shimano casette freewheel seems to have
> 2 small bearings.
>

There are no roller bearings in the F&S Torpedo Dreigang
gearbox.

http://www.scheunenfun.de/images/naben_infomaterial/pdf/mod55_liste1955_ohnebremse.pdf
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Saturday, July 29, 2017 at 9:01:10 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:

You forgot the headset.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

Well, a "plain bearing" is still a bearing, and a pedal does have two
bearings of one sort or another. One is at the crank side, one is at
the outside.

I suppose it's marginally possible to have only one deep groove ball
bearing at the axle side. The pedal would be loaded as a cantilever
beam, and you'd be hoping that the deep groove would resist the bending
moment. But I don't know of any that are done that way.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Sure you do:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/SH83D.JPG

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Hi-E_Engineering/Hi_E_pedals.htm

p.s. a nylon block pedal spinning on a steel shaft is one
simple sleeve bearing.

[Frank Krygowski]

Although I once had a little-ridden recumbent trike with Shimano AX
pedals, I never dug into the oddball pedals. I knew they were
cantilevered, but I sort of assumed they used two single row bearings
side by side. (I didn't remember the Hi-E pedals at all.)

> p.s. a nylon block pedal spinning on a steel shaft is one simple sleeve
> bearing.

Do they have just a plain cylindrical bore? I'd have thought they'd be
molded so contact occurred only at the inboard and outboard ends of the
pedal spindle. Obviously, I've never cut one apart.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 13:04:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

(...)

The 2012 Brompton Bumble B folding pedal uses a single bearing.
<http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4NF1CyO6ZSc/UCFwACxWhdI/AAAAAAAAAss/HVK7JEkv3iI/s1600/2012foldingpedal.jpg>
To compensate for increased torque on a single bearing, Brompton
increased the diameter of the bearing..

All the other folding pedals that I've played with use two bearings.
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Sunlite%2067302%20folding%20pedals/index.html>
Although the bearings are quite close together, the cantilever
supported resin pedal is weak enough that it will break before the
bearing complain.

Here's patent for a folding pedal that uses a single bearing:
<https://www.google.com/patents/US2323913>

and a quick release pedal system that uses 3 bearings:
<https://www.google.com/patents/US5315896>
Although the it's a bit of stretch to consider the ball lock to be a
bearing, it does rotate and carry a load.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi wrote:

> p.s. a nylon block pedal spinning on a steel
> shaft is one simple sleeve bearing.

There are one-bearing pedals, no doubt.

I don't know what is more common on "my" 70s
and 80s bikes because altho I've picked apart
a couple of pedals for fun, whenever there is
a problem I just buy a couple of new and throw
the old pair away.

[Emanuel Berg]

Sir Ridesalot wrote:

> You forgot the headset.

It is included in the "fork" line. "Head tube"
would perhaps be better...

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi wrote:

> There are no roller bearings in the F&S Torpedo
> Dreigang gearbox.
>
> http://www.scheunenfun.de/images/naben_infomaterial/pdf/mod55_liste1955_ohnebremse.pdf

Hm, I've never seen that exploded before -
here is a better one:

http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/bike/torpedo-3.jpg

Nevertheless, you are right!

The roller bearings are in the single
speed hub!

That means, the original calculation could look
like this:

rear hub 4 (2 big, 1 small, 1 roller)
crank/BB 2
pedals 2*2=4 (or 2*1=2)
front wheel 2
head tube + 2
------
14 (or 12)

[AMuzi]

On 7/30/2017 5:37 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
>
>> There are no roller bearings in the F&S Torpedo
>> Dreigang gearbox.
>>
>> http://www.scheunenfun.de/images/naben_infomaterial/pdf/mod55_liste1955_ohnebremse.pdf
>
> Hm, I've never seen that exploded before -
> here is a better one:
>
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/bike/torpedo-3.jpg
>
> Nevertheless, you are right!
>
> The roller bearings are in the single
> speed hub!
>
> That means, the original calculation could look
> like this:
>
> rear hub 4 (2 big, 1 small, 1 roller)
> crank/BB 2
> pedals 2*2=4 (or 2*1=2)
> front wheel 2
> head tube + 2
> ------
> 14 (or 12)
>

There are no roller bearings in an F&F Torpedo coaster hub.
You mistake the 5-roller clutch for a bearing.

http://rmalverson.blogspot.com/2012/01/perry-coaster-hub.html

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi wrote:

> There are no roller bearings in an F&F
> Torpedo coaster hub. You mistake the 5-roller
> clutch for a bearing.

In the documentation, the small rods are
refered to as "lagerbult" which is literally
"bearing bolt".

But let's approach this from another angle -
what is the definition of a bearing and where
does these rods fail to meet it?

[AMuzi]

On 7/30/2017 6:03 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
>
>> There are no roller bearings in an F&F
>> Torpedo coaster hub. You mistake the 5-roller
>> clutch for a bearing.
>
> In the documentation, the small rods are
> refered to as "lagerbult" which is literally
> "bearing bolt".
>
> But let's approach this from another angle -
> what is the definition of a bearing and where
> does these rods fail to meet it?
>

You can define you own terms for your own use as you like.
But that's a roller clutch:
http://www.automotivedictionary.org/Roller_clutch

p.s. typo should be F&S

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi wrote:

> You can define you own terms for your own use
> as you like.

I asked how/where it would fail a definition.

According to Wikipedia, the definition is
"Bearing (mechanical), a component that
separates moving parts and takes a load" [*]
If "load" can be the component itself or an
extention thereof, that's what it is what
I can see.

In all honesty tho, the Torpedo 3 SP has
a planet carrier and into the planet wheels are
also the rods refered to as "lagerbultar" or
"bearing bolts" - and that whole thing looks
even less a bearing. So perhaps one shouldn't
stare oneself blind on what the rods
are called!

What are they called in English? In German they
are called "Stoubdeckel" which GT fails to
translate to English...

> But that's a roller clutch

OK, so now the list looks like this:

rear hub 3 the 5-roller clutch is not a roller bearing
crank/BB 2
pedals 2*2=4 or 2*1=2
front wheel 2
head tube + 2 headset 1, fork 1
------
13 or 11

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearing_(mechanical)

[John B.]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 10:46:19 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>John B. wrote:
>
>> Given that the bearings you are counting are
>> simply a bunch of balls maybe you need to get
>> down to fundamentals and count the
>> balls themselves.
>
>Great idea! Only... with the exception of the
>branded rear hubs, do the balls really occur
>with any regularity from bike to bike?
>
>I know that in the front wheel hub sometimes
>the balls run loose and sometimes they are in
>a retainer.

Shimano wheels are still (I believe) being manufactured using loose
balls and I have a spare BB bearing set with loose balls and I also
have a bike that uses loose balls for the head bearings so I would
have to say that yes, loose balls are used in bicycles.

And like the length of a boat the larger number of "bearings" sounds
much bigger and more important :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 01:03:59 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>AMuzi wrote:
>
>> There are no roller bearings in an F&F
>> Torpedo coaster hub. You mistake the 5-roller
>> clutch for a bearing.
>
>In the documentation, the small rods are
>refered to as "lagerbult" which is literally
>"bearing bolt".

:-)
Well in other languages that likely were derived from the same root
language as yours "lager" can mean beer or a camp surrounded by a
temporary fence, sometimes made by wagons :-) "Bolt Beer"?
:-)

>
>But let's approach this from another angle -
>what is the definition of a bearing and where
>does these rods fail to meet it?
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 13:04:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

You obviously aren't into cheap pedals :-) The local kids come by to
have their bikes fixed and some of the pedals are simply a molded
plastic shape with a hole through it. A single plain bearing, as it
were. The "axle", threaded into the crank, runs all the way through
the pedal with a pressed on clip on the outer end to hold it together.
Less then $3.00 a pair :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. wrote:

>> In the documentation, the small rods are
>> refered to as "lagerbult" which is literally
>> "bearing bolt".
>
> :-) Well in other languages that likely were
> derived from the same root language as yours
> "lager" can mean beer or a camp surrounded by
> a temporary fence, sometimes made by wagons
> :-)

Almost! :)

"Lager" is "beer" AND "bearing".

"Läger" is "camp". Yes, you can have one with
tents and/or wagons. I don't think the fence is
mandatory :)

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/30/2017 3:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 13:04:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> (...)
>
> The 2012 Brompton Bumble B folding pedal uses a single bearing.
> <http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4NF1CyO6ZSc/UCFwACxWhdI/AAAAAAAAAss/HVK7JEkv3iI/s1600/2012foldingpedal.jpg>
> To compensate for increased torque on a single bearing, Brompton
> increased the diameter of the bearing..
>
> All the other folding pedals that I've played with use two bearings.
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Sunlite%2067302%20folding%20pedals/index.html>
> Although the bearings are quite close together, the cantilever
> supported resin pedal is weak enough that it will break before the
> bearing complain.
>
> Here's patent for a folding pedal that uses a single bearing:
> <https://www.google.com/patents/US2323913>
>
> and a quick release pedal system that uses 3 bearings:
> <https://www.google.com/patents/US5315896>
> Although the it's a bit of stretch to consider the ball lock to be a
> bearing, it does rotate and carry a load.

And of course, we can get into discussions about defining _one_ bearing.
For example, two single row ball bearings side by side are, well, two
bearings. But one double row bearing can be functionally the same thing
in one package.
http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/66540-497274

Do we count it as one or as two?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Emanuel Berg]

I've posted the file on my web page. I'm sure
it'll be the most popular section
since forever :)

http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/bike/bearings.txt

Everybody happy?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:50:11 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>You obviously aren't into cheap pedals :-) The local kids come by to
>have their bikes fixed and some of the pedals are simply a molded
>plastic shape with a hole through it. A single plain bearing, as it
>were. The "axle", threaded into the crank, runs all the way through
>the pedal with a pressed on clip on the outer end to hold it together.
>Less then $3.00 a pair :-)

Zero bearing pedals were released about 5 years ago as "Moto Urban
Bicycling Pedals". 55 Euros including VAT plus 9.5 Euro shipping:
<https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6EDT3rbPJr4/maxresdefault.jpg>
<http://www.motobicycles.com/tl_files/images/artikel/pedal-wood-explode-black.jpg>
<http://www.motobicycles.com/moto-urban-pedal-en.html>
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN8rILhNxm7GL_H80Y1IWbw>
I'm tempted to try these because they might solve my problem of riding
while wearing construction boots.

[Jeff Liebermann]

The above URL didn't work. All I got was a small white box. I think
you mean one of these:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=double+row+ball+bearing&tbm=isch>

>Do we count it as one or as two?

Easy. If the double row bearing assembly comes apart into two
independent single row bearings, it's two bearings. However, if the
inner and outer races are each a single part, then it's one double row
bearing.

[David Scheidt]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
:On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:50:11 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

:wrote:

:>You obviously aren't into cheap pedals :-) The local kids come by to
:>have their bikes fixed and some of the pedals are simply a molded
:>plastic shape with a hole through it. A single plain bearing, as it
:>were. The "axle", threaded into the crank, runs all the way through
:>the pedal with a pressed on clip on the outer end to hold it together.
:>Less then $3.00 a pair :-)

:Zero bearing pedals were released about 5 years ago as "Moto Urban
:Bicycling Pedals". 55 Euros including VAT plus 9.5 Euro shipping:
:<https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6EDT3rbPJr4/maxresdefault.jpg>
:<http://www.motobicycles.com/tl_files/images/artikel/pedal-wood-explode-black.jpg>
:<http://www.motobicycles.com/moto-urban-pedal-en.html>
:<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN8rILhNxm7GL_H80Y1IWbw>
:I'm tempted to try these because they might solve my problem of riding
:while wearing construction boots.

MKS touring work well for me.



--
sig 51

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:32:12 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>:I'm tempted to try these because they might solve my problem of riding
>:while wearing construction boots.

>MKS touring work well for me.

Maybe. $33. My mens size 8W construction boots are about 4.5"
(114mm) wide. It looks like they'll fit with less than 1" of
overhang:
<http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/pedals.html>
<http://www.cyclofiend.com/Images/rbw/pedal_touringcyclo.jpg>
or less with an extender:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/181927730252>
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/221745679694>

Thanks.

[John B.]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 04:00:19 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>John B. wrote:
>
>>> In the documentation, the small rods are
>>> refered to as "lagerbult" which is literally
>>> "bearing bolt".
>>
>> :-) Well in other languages that likely were
>> derived from the same root language as yours
>> "lager" can mean beer or a camp surrounded by
>> a temporary fence, sometimes made by wagons
>> :-)
>
>Almost! :)
>
>"Lager" is "beer" AND "bearing".
>
>"Läger" is "camp". Yes, you can have one with
>tents and/or wagons. I don't think the fence is
>mandatory :)

Well, in S. African Dutch which I suspect comes from the same root
language as yours a "Lager" is a camp protected by circled vehicles
and, I believe, it can be used as a verb as in "to lager".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 19:16:54 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:50:11 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>You obviously aren't into cheap pedals :-) The local kids come by to
>>have their bikes fixed and some of the pedals are simply a molded
>>plastic shape with a hole through it. A single plain bearing, as it
>>were. The "axle", threaded into the crank, runs all the way through
>>the pedal with a pressed on clip on the outer end to hold it together.
>>Less then $3.00 a pair :-)
>
>Zero bearing pedals were released about 5 years ago as "Moto Urban
>Bicycling Pedals". 55 Euros including VAT plus 9.5 Euro shipping:
><https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6EDT3rbPJr4/maxresdefault.jpg>
><http://www.motobicycles.com/tl_files/images/artikel/pedal-wood-explode-black.jpg>
><http://www.motobicycles.com/moto-urban-pedal-en.html>
><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN8rILhNxm7GL_H80Y1IWbw>
>I'm tempted to try these because they might solve my problem of riding
>while wearing construction boots.

You can get aluminum pedals with small antiskid studs for about US$
16.00
http://tinyurl.com/ybbkdsok
that ought to work with boots. Free shipping if you order two pairs

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. wrote:

> Well, in S. African Dutch which I suspect
> comes from the same root language as yours
> a "Lager" is a camp protected by circled
> vehicles and, I believe, it can be used as
> a verb as in "to lager".

It can be used as a verb here as well,
"att lagra" but that means to stock as in pile
up supplies, not build a camp. Probably the
same root tho as those to are
semantically close.

And this is were the beer comes in as well, to
have something happen with something over time.

"Lager" is also simply "layer", I forgot
to mention. So we call it literally
"ball layer", not "ball bearing".

"Lägra" is also old-time slang to have sex with
a woman, as in to "conquer" her but
less dramatic - again the camp connection, if
I'm to be an amateur etymologist as well as
bike mechanic.

[John B.]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:06:29 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>John B. wrote:
>
>> Well, in S. African Dutch which I suspect
>> comes from the same root language as yours
>> a "Lager" is a camp protected by circled
>> vehicles and, I believe, it can be used as
>> a verb as in "to lager".
>
>It can be used as a verb here as well,
>"att lagra" but that means to stock as in pile
>up supplies, not build a camp. Probably the
>same root tho as those to are
>semantically close.
>
>And this is were the beer comes in as well, to
>have something happen with something over time.
>

Lager (German: storeroom or warehouse)seems to be related to the beer
maturing at lower temperatures, perhaps in the warehouse or brewery
storage. It also seems to be associated with the yeast used and the
temperature at which fermenting takes place.

Or maybe cold beer and hot beer :-?

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

What a coincidence! I just read about that ('lager') in the
weekend paper's Books section.

[AMuzi]

We like those but depending on how bulky your shoe size
these are popular too:

https://sportsdealbox.com/image/cache/data/30APRIL/ABSB004C92QO8-500x500.jpg

[cycl...@gmail.com]

In South Africa it's called a laager isn't it? And I always had the idea that it meant a "defensive position" more than a camp.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:57:25 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 19:16:54 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:

>>I'm tempted to try these because they might solve my problem of riding
>>while wearing construction boots.

>You can get aluminum pedals with small antiskid studs for about US$
>16.00
>http://tinyurl.com/ybbkdsok
>that ought to work with boots. Free shipping if you order two pairs
>:-)

I have two different pairs of platform pedals with studs. Neither
matches the pattern of my boots:
<http://www.sears.com/wolverine-men-s-cirrus-safety-toe-hiker-brown/p-067T0171000P>
They slip, slide, grab at odd angles, and basically don't work. The
pedals are also not quite wide enough. I've thought of drilling holes
in the shoe soles to match the studs, or moving the studs around the
platform, but haven't done anything. Time permitting, I might also
try removing the studs, and fabricating some toe clips, or maybe
casting or machining a matching shoe sole pattern in plastic. Yet
another project.

Meanwhile, I've been using these:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Sunlite%2067302%20folding%20pedals/index.html>
and breaking off the resin part if my foot slips towards the end, if I
crash, or if I hit something with the pedals. I have 2 more pairs to
destroy before I need to buy something else, so I have some time to
play with alternatives. This might also be a bad excuse for buying a
3D printer or benchtop mill.

[AMuzi]

When the time comes, big fat blown aluminum platform pedals
are so common that they are dirt cheap.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Which style would you suggest?
<https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+platform+pedals&tbm=isch>
Notice that almost all of them have studs, spikes, or bed of nails,
which aren't going to work unless I also drill the shoe soles. Little
of the reviews or literature bother to supply dimensions, so getting a
proper fit is a matter of guesswork.

When advertised as a "large" platform pedal, that usually means the
fore-aft length is longer, not the width. I've noticed that the
longer pedals also seem to be narrower, probably in an effort to save
material and weight.

Since my boots have a heel, there's a tendency for my boots to slide
forward, until the trailing edge of the pedal hits the heel, resulting
in improper foot placement on the pedal. I can fix this with toe
clips, but none of the platform pedals I've seen will take toe clips.

Gone to work...

[AMuzi]

After looking at a few pairs in your local LBS, note that
the cheapest have bumps or protrusions cast in. The next
model up has screw in pegs which may also be unscrewed.

typical example linked earlier today:
https://sportsdealbox.com/image/cache/data/30APRIL/ABSB004C92QO8-500x500.jpg

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 11:07:04 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> I have two different pairs of platform pedals with studs. Neither
> matches the pattern of my boots:
> <http://www.sears.com/wolverine-men-s-cirrus-safety-toe-hiker-brown/p-067T0171000P>
> They slip, slide, grab at odd angles, and basically don't work. The
> pedals are also not quite wide enough. I've thought of drilling holes
> in the shoe soles to match the studs, or moving the studs around the
> platform, but haven't done anything. Time permitting, I might also
> try removing the studs, and fabricating some toe clips, or maybe
> casting or machining a matching shoe sole pattern in plastic. Yet
> another project.

I'm surprised that the tiny studs on the platform pedals don't grip those soles
well enough. But if I had that problem, I'd take a Dremel tool to the studs
and sort of sharpen them.

Many years ago, the once moderately famous bike tourist, Captain Dan Henry,
gave a talk on his bike touring technique. (This was the early '80s, before
clipless pedals.) Despite his decades of experience, he said he was afraid
of toe clips and straps. He toured in a pair of men's leather-sold shoes
using standard road pedals (probably Campy). When he got a new pair, he test
rode them until he could see where the pedal's cage would contact the sole
of the shoe. Then he used a saw to cut a matching slot just a bit into the
leather sole.

I suppose you could do something similar, matching pin holes. But I doubt
that's really necessary.

- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Roger Durham also preferred tall leather lace-up work boots.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 12:17:37 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Snipped

> Which style would you suggest?

Snipped

>
> Since my boots have a heel, there's a tendency for my boots to slide
> forward, until the trailing edge of the pedal hits the heel, resulting
> in improper foot placement on the pedal. I can fix this with toe
> clips, but none of the platform pedals I've seen will take toe clips.
>
> Gone to work...
>

From the link you provided. Page 3, 4th row second image from the right. They take toeclips too.

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QjR7dimpSJA/maxresdefault.jpg

[Jeff Liebermann]

<https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+platform+pedals&tbm=isch>
Thanks, but my computah doesn't do pages. It scrolls continuously.
Please click on the photo, pick "View Image", and cut-n-paste the URL.
There are some that look nice, but without dimensions, I can't tell if
my construction boots will fit.

Incidentally, this is the largest width pedal that I could find:
<https://www.crankbrothers.com/product/stamp-large>
<https://www.crankbrothers.com/blog/engineering-the-optimal-interface-between-pedal-and-shoe>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 10:48:06 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 11:07:04 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>> I have two different pairs of platform pedals with studs. Neither
>> matches the pattern of my boots:
>> <http://www.sears.com/wolverine-men-s-cirrus-safety-toe-hiker-brown/p-067T0171000P>
>> They slip, slide, grab at odd angles, and basically don't work. The
>> pedals are also not quite wide enough. I've thought of drilling holes
>> in the shoe soles to match the studs, or moving the studs around the
>> platform, but haven't done anything. Time permitting, I might also
>> try removing the studs, and fabricating some toe clips, or maybe
>> casting or machining a matching shoe sole pattern in plastic. Yet
>> another project.

>I'm surprised that the tiny studs on the platform pedals don't grip those soles
>well enough. But if I had that problem, I'd take a Dremel tool to the studs
>and sort of sharpen them.

The shoes cost me about $100/ea. I don't really want to butcher them.

My guess(tm) is the grip problem is because the rubber soles are
harder than most. My Durometer meter is hiding somewhere. I'll
supply some numbers when it reappears. These shoes last me an average
of 3 year per pair. Longer if I "fix" the heels with hot melt glue
and ground up rubber.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/hot-melt-glue/index.html>
I wear them everywhere and for everything except cycling and formal
occasions. All I want to do is jump on the bicycle without having to
change shoes.

>Many years ago, the once moderately famous bike tourist, Captain Dan Henry,
>gave a talk on his bike touring technique. (This was the early '80s, before
>clipless pedals.) Despite his decades of experience, he said he was afraid
>of toe clips and straps. He toured in a pair of men's leather-sold shoes
>using standard road pedals (probably Campy). When he got a new pair, he test
>rode them until he could see where the pedal's cage would contact the sole
>of the shoe. Then he used a saw to cut a matching slot just a bit into the
>leather sole.
>
>I suppose you could do something similar, matching pin holes. But I doubt
>that's really necessary.

Good idea. I might try that when my shoes are almost worn out, but
not on a fairly new pair of boots. I want to avoid major
modifications to either pedal or boots until I run out of options.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/shoes.html>

[John B.]

http://tinyurl.com/yczvk2zq

But probably semantics as I also find:
A laager, lager, leaguer or laer (Afrikaans, from Dutch leger (camp or
army);

The word is South African in origin, and originally referred to a
formation used by travelers whereby they would draw wagons into a
circle and place cattle and horses on the inside to protect them from
raiders or nocturnal animals. Laager were extensively used by the
Voortrekkers of the Great Trek during the 1830s. The laager was put to
the ultimate test on 16 December 1838, when an army of 10 000 Zulu
Impis besieged and were defeated by approximately 350 Voortrekkers in
the aptly named Battle of Blood River. In 19th century America, the
same approach was used by pioneers who would "circle the wagons" in
case of attack.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:06:57 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

Good Lord! When I was a little fellow I rode a bike with no shoes at
all and here you've got a great big pair of boots and you are
complaining :-)

By the way, braking by sticking the toe in between the top of the fork
and the front wheel should NOT be attempted without shoes :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:17:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

Over here it is not uncommon to see someone pedaling sedately along
with their heels on the pedals. Wearing sandals of course.

Re toe clips you can, at least here, buy cheap metal frame pedals
that, while they may need a hole drilled here and there, can be fitted
with toe clips.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

https://www.amazon.com/MKS-Urban-Platform-Sealed-Bearing/dp/B007T3JXYK
or
http://forums.mtbr.com/attachments/fat-bikes/720070d1346167933-anyone-seen-new-45nrth-platform-pedals-pedal-vp.jpg look good. Also, MKS now makes a toe-clip designed for boots. It's deeper/higher at the front than what regular toe-clips are.

Cheers

[John B.]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:06:46 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Why do you wear them everywhere?

Back in the day when I actually thrashed around in the jungle I
certainly wore boots but when I put my Sunday-go-to-meeting duds on
and headed for the bright lights I left my boots in the bunk house.

>>Many years ago, the once moderately famous bike tourist, Captain Dan Henry,
>>gave a talk on his bike touring technique. (This was the early '80s, before
>>clipless pedals.) Despite his decades of experience, he said he was afraid
>>of toe clips and straps. He toured in a pair of men's leather-sold shoes
>>using standard road pedals (probably Campy). When he got a new pair, he test
>>rode them until he could see where the pedal's cage would contact the sole
>>of the shoe. Then he used a saw to cut a matching slot just a bit into the
>>leather sole.
>>
>>I suppose you could do something similar, matching pin holes. But I doubt
>>that's really necessary.
>
>Good idea. I might try that when my shoes are almost worn out, but
>not on a fairly new pair of boots. I want to avoid major
>modifications to either pedal or boots until I run out of options.
><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/shoes.html>
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 01 Aug 2017 12:48:08 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:06:46 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:

>>>> <http://www.sears.com/wolverine-men-s-cirrus-safety-toe-hiker-brown/p-067T0171000P>

>Why do you wear them everywhere?

They help me climb the walls. Lots of little insignificant reasons
which make it easier to have one pair of shoes for everything instead
of changing shoes for the occasion. There are some things that don't
work, such as tennis, running, sailing, business meetings, and
bicycling. I have worn them with a suit and tie where everyone
pretended not to notice. I also have flat feet and weak ankles. These
shoes are the most comfortable that I can find. When I go for my
ritual 3-5 mile exercise trudge, I hardly notice them, while other
shoes cause some pain. The boots also give me 5mm of added height
over tennis shoes. During the winter, it reduces slipping on my
slippery wet stairs and keeps my toes warm. I sometimes visit
construction sites that require safety toe boots. Etc...

Most important is that such boots are now considered fashionable:
<http://www.hipstersinworkboots.com>
which give the general impression of doing useful work to someone who
has never done physical labor.

Incidentally, they are advertised as "safety toe" which does not mean
the shoe has a heavy steel toe. I think it's plastic or aluminum but
I haven't torn an old pair apart yet to check. I've had a few heavy
things land on my toes and can thank the shoes for preventing an
injury.

>Back in the day when I actually thrashed around in the jungle I
>certainly wore boots but when I put my Sunday-go-to-meeting duds on
>and headed for the bright lights I left my boots in the bunk house.

I did mention that I don't wear them for "special occasions". I do
have a pair of patent leather dress shoes, somewhere, maybe. Instead,
I have a nice new pairs of boots for such special occasions:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/Wolverine%20Cirrus.jpg>
Umm... they're the pair on the left.

[Emanuel Berg]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> They help me climb the walls. Lots of little
> insignificant reasons which make it easier to
> have one pair of shoes for everything instead
> of changing shoes for the occasion. There are
> some things that don't work, such as tennis,
> running, sailing, business meetings, and
> bicycling. I have worn them with a suit and
> tie where everyone pretended not to notice.
> I also have flat feet and weak ankles.
> These shoes are the most comfortable that
> I can find. When I go for my ritual 3-5 mile
> exercise trudge, I hardly notice them, while
> other shoes cause some pain.

I agree boots are much better and I've used
them exclusively for many years (wellies),
including for bicycling (utility) and
business meetings, if that is the appropriate
term dealing with public agencies etc.

The advantages are: much faster, and heel
is loose so less pain.

I buy new pairs ~3 times a year.
Impregnation hasn't made them last longer.

The only problem I've had with 'em is that
sometimes the socks get wet from inside.
I've experimented with drilling holes thru the
boots to increase circulation but to no avail,
so whenever that happens, I use crocs:

https://cdn.runblogger.com/images/2016/06/blac-crocs_thumb.jpg

Made in Italy!

Stalin also was wearing boots all year by the
way. There was a journalist who asked Molotov
in the 80s why Stalin did so even in the
summer. Molotov asked the journalist what he
thought, and he replied "because Stalin was
a soldier of the revolution?" Molotov laughed
and said, "Very poetic. But Stalin wrote poetry
only in his youth."

:)

[John B.]

On Tue, 01 Aug 2017 09:18:49 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

wrote:

>On Tue, 01 Aug 2017 12:48:08 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:06:46 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>>>>> <http://www.sears.com/wolverine-men-s-cirrus-safety-toe-hiker-brown/p-067T0171000P>
>
>>Why do you wear them everywhere?
>
>They help me climb the walls. Lots of little insignificant reasons
>which make it easier to have one pair of shoes for everything instead
>of changing shoes for the occasion. There are some things that don't
>work, such as tennis, running, sailing, business meetings, and
>bicycling. I have worn them with a suit and tie where everyone
>pretended not to notice. I also have flat feet and weak ankles. These
>shoes are the most comfortable that I can find. When I go for my
>ritual 3-5 mile exercise trudge, I hardly notice them, while other
>shoes cause some pain. The boots also give me 5mm of added height
>over tennis shoes. During the winter, it reduces slipping on my
>slippery wet stairs and keeps my toes warm. I sometimes visit
>construction sites that require safety toe boots. Etc...
>
>Most important is that such boots are now considered fashionable:
><http://www.hipstersinworkboots.com>
>which give the general impression of doing useful work to someone who
>has never done physical labor.

I find modern fashion incomprehensible. $200 blue jeans, with holes
ripped in them? And now you tell me that work boots are fashionable...
for those who have never done physical work :-)

Back in the days when people actually did physical work wearing of
work clothes was considered to be in very poor taste except when doing
work :-)

>Incidentally, they are advertised as "safety toe" which does not mean
>the shoe has a heavy steel toe. I think it's plastic or aluminum but
>I haven't torn an old pair apart yet to check. I've had a few heavy
>things land on my toes and can thank the shoes for preventing an
>injury.

I believe, or at least it was true back when I wore boots, that
"Safety Toe" is/was a sort of general statement. I do remember that
only specific makes of "safety toe" boots were allowed to be worn on
the floor of a drilling rig, for example, I assume because their
safety was considered superior to other safeties :-)

>>Back in the day when I actually thrashed around in the jungle I
>>certainly wore boots but when I put my Sunday-go-to-meeting duds on
>>and headed for the bright lights I left my boots in the bunk house.
>
>I did mention that I don't wear them for "special occasions". I do
>have a pair of patent leather dress shoes, somewhere, maybe. Instead,
>I have a nice new pairs of boots for such special occasions:

><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/Wolveincomprehensiblerine%20Cirrus.jpg>

>Umm... they're the pair on the left.

Your address, above, returns the statement "Error 404: NOT FOUND!
This domain name has just been registered".

In any event Redwings are the only proper boot to wear :-)
http://www.redwingshoes.com/footwear/page-2/maxnum-24


--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 01:34:51 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

Crocs are an example of East versus West. The first pair I saw was on
a sailing friend who reckoned that were the best thing ever and he had
gotten them at, what he said was, the very reasonable price of
US$20.00. The second pair I saw were local made and cost US$2.50. I've
been wearing them ever since but the price has gone up and they are
now about US$4.00 :-)

>Stalin also was wearing boots all year by the
>way. There was a journalist who asked Molotov
>in the 80s why Stalin did so even in the
>summer. Molotov asked the journalist what he
>thought, and he replied "because Stalin was
>a soldier of the revolution?" Molotov laughed
>and said, "Very poetic. But Stalin wrote poetry
>only in his youth."
>
>:)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Doug Landau]

> I find modern fashion incomprehensible. $200 blue jeans, with holes
> ripped in them? And now you tell me that work boots are fashionable...
> for those who have never done physical work :-)

You are too old. Look at her!
https://www.google.com/search?q=puck+moonen&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US751&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkpqHByLfVAhXCqFQKHWaNAIwQ_AUICigB&biw=1194&bih=634#imgrc=sb8IDZXHKKAF1M:

Now... yer sayin... yer sayin that... that spose you and her were on a date, ... and you went for dinner ... and after that yer walkin in the mall and holding hands, ... and you go in macys or banana republic or wherever and she points to them... and says you should get a pair... and you grimace... and she runs her fingers thru the hair on yer forearm and looks at you warm but also piercing and says "I like them"

What is not to understand.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. wrote:

> I find modern fashion incomprehensible.
> $200 blue jeans, with holes ripped in them?

I was once sentenced to work in a second hand
shop, and there I learned that what happens
when they accept clothes after cleaning etc.
is they pin a little piece of paper to each
item saying what week they got it.

When X weeks had passed and the item hasn't
been sold, they give all such items to poor
countries in I suppose Africa and Asia.

A smart system as it means no one ever had to
wrinkle his/her forehead should we or should we
not get rid of an item. A customer-based
algorithm did the job!

Anyway there was one exception to the rule.
Jeans with ripped holes were supposed to be
thrown away immediatly after they hade expired,
since if ignorant Westerners didn't want them,
no one did.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. wrote:

> Crocs are an example of East versus West.

... what do you mean? I don't know the history
of Crocs.

> The first pair I saw was on a sailing friend
> who reckoned that were the best thing ever
> and he had gotten them at, what he said was,
> the very reasonable price of US$20.00.
> The second pair I saw were local made and
> cost US$2.50. I've been wearing them ever
> since but the price has gone up and they are
> now about US$4.00 :-)

Are the local made as good? I'm sticking with
Italy, thank you :)

The other day I heard there were "industrial"
Crocs and ordinary Crocs. I don't know what
I have but if I don't have the industrial ones,
I'm getting them quick fast and in a hurry.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 09:41:30 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I find modern fashion incomprehensible. $200 blue jeans, with holes
>ripped in them? And now you tell me that work boots are fashionable...
>for those who have never done physical work :-)

Yep, but don't worry. It will soon be replaced by the next big thing.
In this case, the trend towards "knowledge workers" has made them feel
guilty for not doing any physical labor. To compensate, they dress
like lumberjacks or construction workers.

>Back in the days when people actually did physical work wearing of
>work clothes was considered to be in very poor taste except when doing
>work :-)

Yes, because the work clothes were filthy. Today's high fashion work
clothes for hipsters are expected to be clean and can therefore be
safely worn for all occasions.

>I believe, or at least it was true back when I wore boots, that
>"Safety Toe" is/was a sort of general statement. I do remember that
>only specific makes of "safety toe" boots were allowed to be worn on
>the floor of a drilling rig, for example, I assume because their
>safety was considered superior to other safeties :-)

The shoes have to meet ASTM F2413-11 specifications:
<https://www.astm.org/Standards/F2413.htm>
Sorry, but I don't want to spend $45 for a copy. Here's a 2012
version:
<https://www.safeshoes.com/media/wysiwyg/docs/Protective-footwear-guide.pdf>
"Compression resistance (15,000 Newtons approximately 1530 kgf)"

>Your address, above, returns the statement "Error 404: NOT FOUND!
>This domain name has just been registered".

Try again:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/Wolverine%20Cirrus.jpg>
I accidentally cut-n-pasted incomprehensible into the middle of the
URL. Such things happen when I'm eating lunch over the keyboard.

>In any event Redwings are the only proper boot to wear :-)
>http://www.redwingshoes.com/footwear/page-2/maxnum-24

I had a pair of these about 20 years ago which are similar to the
Wolverine Cirrus that I'm currently wearing:
<http://www.redwingshoes.com/red-wing-shoe/4433-red-wing-shoes/4433-red-wing-mens-6-inch-boot-brown>
The current price is $225(list) and $170(ebay). The soles were rather
thin and did not last very long. They would slide around in mud. I
might have tolerated all that, but they were also too narrow. I had
to soak the shoes in water and walk around in them for a day until
they stretched enough to fit. Even so, they never did fit properly.

[Emanuel Berg]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Yep, but don't worry. It will soon be
> replaced by the next big thing. In this case,
> the trend towards "knowledge workers" has
> made them feel guilty for not doing any
> physical labor. To compensate, they dress
> like lumberjacks or construction workers.

It is not so much about guilt as about *envy*.

It is like the people in coastal communities,
when they sit in their cabins and there is
a storm outdoors. They all say, "Man, I'm glad
I'm not out at sea a night light this, like the
sailors".

But actually he is not entirely glad. He is
just a bit envious as well. The bit
that matters.

[John B.]

On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 05:44:01 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>John B. wrote:
>
>> Crocs are an example of East versus West.
>
>... what do you mean? I don't know the history
>of Crocs.
>
>> The first pair I saw was on a sailing friend
>> who reckoned that were the best thing ever
>> and he had gotten them at, what he said was,
>> the very reasonable price of US$20.00.
>> The second pair I saw were local made and
>> cost US$2.50. I've been wearing them ever
>> since but the price has gone up and they are
>> now about US$4.00 :-)
>
>Are the local made as good? I'm sticking with
>Italy, thank you :)

I can't compare them as I have never had an impulse to pay more then a
small amount for a pair of sandals. But I did take the time to look
and feel a pair of genuine Crocs and from that relatively limited
inspection I would say that the local made "crocs" vary from about the
same thickness, flexibility and hardness of the original to some a bit
harder, which harder versions seem to be the cheaper versions.

>The other day I heard there were "industrial"
>Crocs and ordinary Crocs. I don't know what
>I have but if I don't have the industrial ones,
>I'm getting them quick fast and in a hurry.

Apparently there are as I read at the Croc site that "The Crocs Bistro
gives you all you need in an on-the-job shoe - from slip-resistance to
extra protection at the toe".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Ah yes, I am old but so far my memory is still functioning and if it
skips a beat I always have my wife to correct me.

But I did recite your little fable to my wife and asked her if she
thought it was logical and she reckons that you left out a word. Right
after the "you should get" insert the word "me".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 05:23:17 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>John B. wrote:
>
>> I find modern fashion incomprehensible.
>> $200 blue jeans, with holes ripped in them?
>
>I was once sentenced to work in a second hand
>shop, and there I learned that what happens
>when they accept clothes after cleaning etc.
>is they pin a little piece of paper to each
>item saying what week they got it.
>
>When X weeks had passed and the item hasn't
>been sold, they give all such items to poor
>countries in I suppose Africa and Asia.

I don't know about Africa but there is a certain amount of business
done in "second-hand" western made clothing. The big Sunday Market in
Bangkok has, or had, a small section that sells second-hand shirts and
pants although the few times I've walked by that section there doesn't
seem to be many customers.

I suppose that with the Malls and up-market shops selling "holey
pants" that the real thing probably is of no interest.

>A smart system as it means no one ever had to
>wrinkle his/her forehead should we or should we
>not get rid of an item. A customer-based
>algorithm did the job!
>
>Anyway there was one exception to the rule.
>Jeans with ripped holes were supposed to be
>thrown away immediatly after they hade expired,
>since if ignorant Westerners didn't want them,
>no one did.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 01 Aug 2017 20:47:05 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 09:41:30 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I find modern fashion incomprehensible. $200 blue jeans, with holes
>>ripped in them? And now you tell me that work boots are fashionable...
>>for those who have never done physical work :-)
>
>Yep, but don't worry. It will soon be replaced by the next big thing.
>In this case, the trend towards "knowledge workers" has made them feel
>guilty for not doing any physical labor. To compensate, they dress
>like lumberjacks or construction workers.
>
>>Back in the days when people actually did physical work wearing of
>>work clothes was considered to be in very poor taste except when doing
>>work :-)
>
>Yes, because the work clothes were filthy. Today's high fashion work
>clothes for hipsters are expected to be clean and can therefore be
>safely worn for all occasions.
>

Well yes. If you clean out chicken coops all day one hardly smell like
a rose when supper time comes along. But one would think that is
realism were demanded that one would be able to buy bottles of L' Eau
de Chicken or Parfum de Equine.

But I guess that they want realism without the smells and the sore
back and the blisters :-) Would one say realism without reality?

Wen I first went to work in the Jungle I used to buy 9 inch Redwings
for Singapore $100 a pair. I think that was about $50 U.S. in those
days. The last time I looked at Redwings they had moved from the
warehouse district to an upmarket Mall and what I used to buy for
S$100 was now S$300, and to add insult to injury the Sing dollar had
increased in value until in U.S. terms the S$300 was now US$200 :-(
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. wrote:

> I don't know about Africa but there is
> a certain amount of business done in
> "second-hand" western made clothing. The big
> Sunday Market in Bangkok has, or had, a small
> section that sells second-hand shirts and
> pants although the few times I've walked by
> that section there doesn't seem to be
> many customers.
>
> I suppose that with the Malls and up-market
> shops selling "holey pants" that the real thing
> probably is of no interest.

I think Thailand in this context is a pretty
rich country. I imagine they dump their surplus
in Somalia or in Asia perhaps Bangladesh or
Burma? (No idea actually.)

Why these people don't want the jeans with
holes, real or artificial, is of course because
they associate it with poverty and everything
that comes with it.

And rightly so. I don't see why anyone would
want these clothes. But apparently people do.
People that aren't poor at all.

[John B.]

On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 09:15:51 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

Some time ago I did look up some of the prices for "ripped Jeans" and
found at least one place selling them for US$200 a pair. I confess
that I didn't look any further as I reckoned that "$200 for a pair of
jeans with the knees ripped out" was ridiculous enough :-)

More recently I read an announce for Tesla (I believe) announcing
their New Cheaper Car.... only $35,000.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. wrote:

> More recently I read an announce for Tesla (I
> believe) announcing their New Cheaper Car....
> only $35,000.

It is insane. When I do what I do, with
computers I use the best software in the world
- all free of charge. With mechanics I always
buy the most expensive tools, and then I care
for them like princesses in a fairy tale
kingdom. I'm like a snobbish aristocrat!
But compared to people who have real money what
I spend, in their eyes, I'm probably not much
higher than a beggar. Lucky me I never buy cars
or even clothes because then it would be
difficult to uphold the principle of always
getting the most expensive stuff :)

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 14:08:57 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 01 Aug 2017 20:47:05 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:

>>Yes, because the work clothes were filthy. Today's high fashion work
>>clothes for hipsters are expected to be clean and can therefore be
>>safely worn for all occasions.

>Well yes. If you clean out chicken coops all day one hardly smell like
>a rose when supper time comes along. But one would think that is
>realism were demanded that one would be able to buy bottles of L' Eau
>de Chicken or Parfum de Equine.
>
>But I guess that they want realism without the smells and the sore
>back and the blisters :-) Would one say realism without reality?

Perception is everything. If you look like a construction worker,
feel like a construction worker, act like a construction worker, make
noises like a construction worker, one might suspect that you are a
construction worker. Smelling like a construction worker is not
necessary to complete the perceived image. What I find amusing is
that the hipster look is also combined with an anorexic ultra-thin
look, that can best be achieved by NOT working in a muscle building
job.

Incidentally, smelling of sweat is considered a fashion statement in
some groups:
"The Appeal Of Stinky, Sweaty, Slightly Offensive Fragrances"
<http://www.xojane.com/beauty/fragrance/perfumes-that-smell-like-sweat>
<https://intothegloss.com/2015/05/sweat-perfume/>
In ancient Rome, the sweat of gladiators was bottled and sold.
<http://www.ripleys.com/weird-news/gladiator-sweat/>

This is not the only time we have glorified some segment of American
society in fashions. In my lifetime, we've survived the recently
released from prison look, Beatniks with low grade poetry attached,
Hippies as glorified poverty, a very brief military look during Desert
Storm, the "natural" look, paper clothes, skin heads, mullets,
greaser, uptown dude, denim with everything, shrink wrap, tie die,
"gay" pastel colors, paisley, nerd, martial artist, etc. See anything
that most of these have in common? Many follow the image of the most
anti-establishment and non-conforming segments of society. If you
want to predict the next big fashion thing, just look for the
dropouts, burnouts, and those who are out of favor.

Full disclosure: I grew up in my father's women's wear and lingerie
factory and worked for a very short time for International Flavors and
Fragrances. I still read Women's Wear Daily online:
<http://wwd.com>
especially since a print subscription is now $900/year.

>When I first went to work in the Jungle I used to buy 9 inch Redwings

>for Singapore $100 a pair. I think that was about $50 U.S. in those
>days. The last time I looked at Redwings they had moved from the
>warehouse district to an upmarket Mall and what I used to buy for
>S$100 was now S$300, and to add insult to injury the Sing dollar had
>increased in value until in U.S. terms the S$300 was now US$200 :-(

Ouch. Are you trying to bankrupt me by recommending I buy Redwing?

We have a Redwing store in town:
<http://stores.redwing.com/santa-cruz-ca>
When I was looking for the one true ultimate work book, I asked the
salesman what was the difference between Redwing and the other brands.
The major point of product differentiation was that Redwing boots
"last longer". I found this difficult to believe since the rubber
soles were considerably thinner than the competition. (I tend to wear
out the soles before I destroy the uppers). At the time, I didn't
think to ask if they were suitable for cycling.

[Doug Landau]

I give up

[John B.]

On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 15:47:55 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>John B. wrote:
>
>> More recently I read an announce for Tesla (I
>> believe) announcing their New Cheaper Car....
>> only $35,000.
>
>It is insane. When I do what I do, with
>computers I use the best software in the world

Emacs? The best software? You must be kidding.

Even in it's heyday there were people working frantically to find a
way, any way, to get away from that monstrosity.

And yes, I did use it sporadically back in the days of Unix and early
Linux.

>- all free of charge. With mechanics I always
>buy the most expensive tools, and then I care
>for them like princesses in a fairy tale
>kingdom. I'm like a snobbish aristocrat!
>But compared to people who have real money what
>I spend, in their eyes, I'm probably not much
>higher than a beggar. Lucky me I never buy cars
>or even clothes because then it would be
>difficult to uphold the principle of always
>getting the most expensive stuff :)

I like the definition of "best" as being the most costly, as I don't
find that at all true. One example: Snapon Tools are usually
considered as "the best" tools in the U.S. and generally speaking they
are also the most expensive.

During my career with the Air Force we would be, occasionally, issued
some pieces of Snapon tools which as they were polished chrome plated
I used to exchange with some other mechanic as quickly as possible.

You see, large internal combustion aircraft engine so commonly leaked
oil that when you park them you place "drip pans" under each engine,
and working on an oily slippery engine and trying to hold onto oily
slippery polished chrome plated tools is very difficult :-)

So , at least in my case, the "Best tools" were the worst tools :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 08:40:40 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

Nope, but just as the Hippies with their regimented look, Oil Field
workers have their little foibles and Redwing boots, and I might add a
specific model of Redwings that looks slightly like a cowboy boot with
a "walking heel" was the required boot for those in the know. People
with other makes and models were, obviously, of a lower order of
humanity. Perhaps a foreigner or somebody from California :-)

Years ago, I was in Darwin (for native Australians, before the
cyclone) and stopped to chat with a bloke running a small backhoe who
was wearing a hard hat, singlet, shorts and rubber sandals. I
commented on the sandals and said something like, "Gee... a guy who
wore sandals on a construction job in the States would get fired". The
Aussie replied that, "here the Union wouldn't allow that". Perhaps
Australians have stronger toes then Usians :-)

>We have a Redwing store in town:
><http://stores.redwing.com/santa-cruz-ca>
>When I was looking for the one true ultimate work book, I asked the
>salesman what was the difference between Redwing and the other brands.
>The major point of product differentiation was that Redwing boots
>"last longer". I found this difficult to believe since the rubber
>soles were considerably thinner than the competition. (I tend to wear
>out the soles before I destroy the uppers). At the time, I didn't
>think to ask if they were suitable for cycling.

Working an a drill rig where you are normally tramping around on an
oily wet floor that will have a lot of drilling mud spilled on it,
which may have all sorts of nasty chemicals in it, a pair of boots
lasted about a year before the stitching rotted out.

On land :-) I could usually get *about* a year and a half out of a
pair of boots. Older New England farm houses often had a "boot
scraper" mounted on the kitchen door steps but in the Jungles we had
half a 55 gallon drum filled with water and a toilet brush at the
entrance to the camp (which was planked). Step into the water, slosh
around a bit and scrub the mud off, and hope the boots dried out
before tomorrow morning when you had to put them back on :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 10:14:34 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau

So did I :-) and married the woman.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. wrote:

> Emacs? The best software? You must
> be kidding.
>
> Even in it's heyday there were people working
> frantically to find a way, any way, to get
> away from that monstrosity.

Monstrosity as in containing everything -
that's why we love it :) Just as we love the
Unix tools for doing one and only one thing
each :)

Unix/Linux is also monolithic except for
a couple of rare distributed experiments that
typically didn't turn out well.

> And yes, I did use it sporadically back in
> the days of Unix and early Linux.

But yes, Unix/Linux, the OS including tool chain
(all but exclusively in C), Emacs in C and
Lisp, all good examples.

> I like the definition of "best" as being the
> most costly, as I don't find that at all
> true. One example: Snapon Tools are usually
> considered as "the best" tools in the U.S.
> and generally speaking they are also the
> most expensive.

I've heard a lot of Snap-on but I have never
seen a single item either in the wild or in
a shop. I would get one just to try if that
ever happened. Perhaps they haven't penetrated
the Scandinavian market?

In the typical shop here, there are three items
for each tools. The cheapest one either doesn't
have a brand or has a brand that is associated
with the shop and doesn't appear anywhere else.
This tool doesn't have to be bad for for
example a radio plier, but for anything more
advanced, for example a ratchet bit driver,
don't buy it.

Then the middle tool has a brand, be it Stanley
or some other.

The most expensive one is usually a Bacho,
Kamasa, or Knipex. And yes, they are better -
you experience this immediately.

If the cheapest one is ~100 SEK, the most
expensive one is ~350 SEK, so granted you have
the tool for many years to come, there is no
reason not to get it.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 08:36:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Nope, but just as the Hippies with their regimented look, Oil Field
>workers have their little foibles and Redwing boots, and I might add a
>specific model of Redwings that looks slightly like a cowboy boot with
>a "walking heel" was the required boot for those in the know. People
>with other makes and models were, obviously, of a lower order of
>humanity. Perhaps a foreigner or somebody from California :-)

We divide the world into two classifications, locals and tourists. If
you're not a local, you must be a tourist. It's fairly easy to
recognize the difference. Locals have dirty cars and dirty shoes.
Tourists have clean cars and clean shoes (or no shoes).

I attended an agricultural and engineering college. It was easy to
distinguish between the aggies and the engineers. The aggies wore
suits, string ties, and often carried brief cases. The engineers wore
cowboy boots, slide rules on the belt, and clothes suitable for muddy
field work. The dichotomy was pointed out many times, and universally
ignored.

>Years ago, I was in Darwin (for native Australians, before the
>cyclone) and stopped to chat with a bloke running a small backhoe who
>was wearing a hard hat, singlet, shorts and rubber sandals. I
>commented on the sandals and said something like, "Gee... a guy who
>wore sandals on a construction job in the States would get fired". The
>Aussie replied that, "here the Union wouldn't allow that". Perhaps
>Australians have stronger toes then Usians :-)

Ummm... you can buy steel toe safety "sandals":
<https://www.oshatoes.com/collections/toe-protection>
I've used such things to cover my dress shoes when visiting various
plants.

>Working an a drill rig where you are normally tramping around on an
>oily wet floor that will have a lot of drilling mud spilled on it,
>which may have all sorts of nasty chemicals in it, a pair of boots
>lasted about a year before the stitching rotted out.

I use Neatsfoot, Mink, or other oil to "preserve" the leather. It
also does a good job of preventing the stitching from rotting. I
don't know if it really extends the shoes life because I've never worn
shoes without some kind of oil to fill the leather pores. My
Wolverine boots last about 3 years with few thrills and spills.

>On land :-) I could usually get *about* a year and a half out of a
>pair of boots. Older New England farm houses often had a "boot
>scraper" mounted on the kitchen door steps but in the Jungles we had
>half a 55 gallon drum filled with water and a toilet brush at the
>entrance to the camp (which was planked). Step into the water, slosh
>around a bit and scrub the mud off, and hope the boots dried out
>before tomorrow morning when you had to put them back on :-)

I helped setup a boot brush scraper at the entrance to the "nature
center" at a local state park. Management wouldn't let me Ramset some
nails into the asphalt to secure the brush cleaner, so I just screwed
it to a plywood board. It was fun watching the visitors perform
various acrobatic maneuvers trying to use the unsecured brush scraper.
I usually jumped into the nearest shallow mud puddle, which made using
the brush scraper much easier.
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015GCD4ZE/ref=asc_df_B015GCD4ZE5106133/>
I have a similar device at my house, made from several replaceable
laundry brushes.

[John B.]

On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 17:05:32 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>John B. wrote:
>
>> Emacs? The best software? You must
>> be kidding.
>>
>> Even in it's heyday there were people working
>> frantically to find a way, any way, to get
>> away from that monstrosity.
>
>Monstrosity as in containing everything -
>that's why we love it :) Just as we love the
>Unix tools for doing one and only one thing
>each :)

We being you and the other guy?
https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-use-emacs-per-day
about 6026 use it daily... in the world...

Out of an estimated 900 million Unix/Linux users :-)

>
>Unix/Linux is also monolithic except for
>a couple of rare distributed experiments that
>typically didn't turn out well.
>
>> And yes, I did use it sporadically back in
>> the days of Unix and early Linux.
>
>But yes, Unix/Linux, the OS including tool chain
>(all but exclusively in C), Emacs in C and
>Lisp, all good examples.

A surprising number of Linux app's, particularly the configuration
app's are written in bash. See the files in grub.d, for example. Or
even /boot/grub/grub.cfg.

>> I like the definition of "best" as being the
>> most costly, as I don't find that at all
>> true. One example: Snapon Tools are usually
>> considered as "the best" tools in the U.S.
>> and generally speaking they are also the
>> most expensive.
>
>I've heard a lot of Snap-on but I have never
>seen a single item either in the wild or in
>a shop. I would get one just to try if that
>ever happened. Perhaps they haven't penetrated
>the Scandinavian market?
>

I'm not sure how common Snap-on outside the U.S. but we once bid a
project for a major oil company in Indonesia who had specified
"Snap-on tools or equal", and to make things easier we decided to go
with Snap-on. The "hand tools" specified in the tender documents
amounted to about a half a million dollars worth of tools and as soon
as we made an inquiry to the Snap-on Indonesia Rep the Regional
Manager flew in from the Philippines.

We ended up with a discount, of course, but more important the
Regional Manager re-confirmed the Snap-on guarantee and they will
replace any tool that breaks. And for the nearly 10 years that we had
the project they did just that.

During various meetings with the Regional Manager he asked me whether
the company (us) had used Snap-on in the past and I told him "No, they
are too expensive". The R.M. commented that yes, most of their Asian
sales came from the military and other large organizations.

In other words organizations that didn't have to make a profit :-)

>In the typical shop here, there are three items
>for each tools. The cheapest one either doesn't
>have a brand or has a brand that is associated
>with the shop and doesn't appear anywhere else.
>This tool doesn't have to be bad for for
>example a radio plier, but for anything more
>advanced, for example a ratchet bit driver,
>don't buy it.
>
>Then the middle tool has a brand, be it Stanley
>or some other.
>
>The most expensive one is usually a Bacho,
>Kamasa, or Knipex. And yes, they are better -
>you experience this immediately.
>
>If the cheapest one is ~100 SEK, the most
>expensive one is ~350 SEK, so granted you have
>the tool for many years to come, there is no
>reason not to get it.

Which is all right if all you are buying is a 1/2" socket or a pair of
pliers, but try it for a complete mechanic's tool box :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 09:23:08 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Yup. If I remember that you could even talk Redwing into giving you a
bottle of whatever snake-oil that they were selling that month.

But the normal work schedule, in the field is 12 hours X 7 days a week
and in reality is usually from Can to Can't (see) if you are traveling
by helicopter.

Strangely enough supper is about 18:00 and bed time isn't much later,
as "getting up time", depending on the season, (what time does the sun
come up) may be as early as 04:30 so you can get breakfast down your
throat and get to the heli-pad before daybreak as lift-off is as soon
as the sun peaks over the horizon.

No one seems to be sitting around oiling their boots :-)

>>On land :-) I could usually get *about* a year and a half out of a
>>pair of boots. Older New England farm houses often had a "boot
>>scraper" mounted on the kitchen door steps but in the Jungles we had
>>half a 55 gallon drum filled with water and a toilet brush at the
>>entrance to the camp (which was planked). Step into the water, slosh
>>around a bit and scrub the mud off, and hope the boots dried out
>>before tomorrow morning when you had to put them back on :-)
>
>I helped setup a boot brush scraper at the entrance to the "nature
>center" at a local state park. Management wouldn't let me Ramset some
>nails into the asphalt to secure the brush cleaner, so I just screwed
>it to a plywood board. It was fun watching the visitors perform
>various acrobatic maneuvers trying to use the unsecured brush scraper.
>I usually jumped into the nearest shallow mud puddle, which made using
>the brush scraper much easier.
><https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015GCD4ZE/ref=asc_df_B015GCD4ZE5106133/>
>I have a similar device at my house, made from several replaceable
>laundry brushes.

Some of the old farm houses in New England were built in the late
1700's and early 1800's and "built in" boot scrapers were nearly
universal. If I remember there were two vertical posts, that held the
scraper bar, that were set into to holes drilled in the granite step
on the kitchen steps, of course. I have no idea how they were
originally set in place but a couple of hundred years later they were
permanent :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. wrote:

> We being you and the other guy?
> https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-use-emacs-per-day
> about 6026 use it daily... in the world...

Well, programming has always been an elitist's
game. But what do they use instead? Vim?
Eclipse? No thank you :)

Also, my favorite language is Lisp. And it is
generally considered the coolest as well:

http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/lang.png

But how many people use it compared to Python,
Java, etc.? Perhaps you have some stats for
that as well, but I already know it is but
a fraction.

How many people write LaTeX and compile it and
how many people use Word?

By the way how was that computation done to get
the Emacs digit? Not that I don't believe it...

> Out of an estimated 900 million Unix/Linux
> users :-)

Obviously one cannot compare a
general-purpose OS to an editor, a tool to
write code. A lot of Linux instances are
probably servers as well. And a lot are just
people who watch funny cat videos on YouTube.
Once only the computer elite used Unix.
Now many other people use it as well :)

> A surprising number of Linux app's,
> particularly the configuration app's are
> written in bash. See the files in grub.d, for
> example. Or even /boot/grub/grub.cfg.

There are many shell scripts around of
different flavors, but it is more like glue to
hold different pieces together. But one can
write stand-alone tools in bash as well,
no doubt.

> Which is all right if all you are buying is
> a 1/2" socket or a pair of pliers, but try it
> for a complete mechanic's tool box :-)

Naah, I don't know. What tools are really,
really expensive? As for every hand tool, most
people can afford buying one every week, even
the most expensive one. That's 52 quality tools
a year. Do it for but a few years and tada.

[John B.]

On Fri, 04 Aug 2017 07:00:55 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>John B. wrote:
>
>> We being you and the other guy?
>> https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-use-emacs-per-day
>> about 6026 use it daily... in the world...
>
>Well, programming has always been an elitist's
>game. But what do they use instead? Vim?
>Eclipse? No thank you :)
>
>Also, my favorite language is Lisp. And it is
>generally considered the coolest as well:
>
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/lang.png
>
>But how many people use it compared to Python,
>Java, etc.? Perhaps you have some stats for
>that as well, but I already know it is but
>a fraction.
>
>How many people write LaTeX and compile it and
>how many people use Word?

LaTex is a type setting system and I doubt that, with all of today's
word processor it is much used.

Even back when I was still working we prepared contract bids, training
material, records, proposals, effectually all the documents used by
the company, using Word Perfect.

>By the way how was that computation done to get
>the Emacs digit? Not that I don't believe it...
>

I thought I posted a reference. But anyway here is the one I used:
https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-use-emacs-per-day

>> Out of an estimated 900 million Unix/Linux
>> users :-)
>
>Obviously one cannot compare a
>general-purpose OS to an editor, a tool to
>write code. A lot of Linux instances are
>probably servers as well. And a lot are just
>people who watch funny cat videos on YouTube.
>Once only the computer elite used Unix.
>Now many other people use it as well :)

But that number represents the potential maximum number of users, of
which it appears, Emacs users amount to some minute portion. ( some
.0006696%).


--
Cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. wrote:

> LaTex is a type setting system and I doubt
> that, with all of today's word processor it
> is much used.
>
> Even back when I was still working we
> prepared contract bids, training material,
> records, proposals, effectually all the
> documents used by the company, using
> Word Perfect.

They use LaTeX in the academic world to typeset
their thesis, at least in math, CS, etc., but
probably many other fields as well - chemistry?
biology? It is useful to do charts, formulas,
diagrams... Maybe in the humanities and social
studies they use Word or Word Perfect - no
idea, but I suppose if text is all you
want/need they would do.

But it is just another example of how the
number of people using it doesn't say anything
about the power of the piece of software or
technology. Actually I think it is completely
natural it is the other way around...

Last time I checked 299 climbers have been to
the top of K2. They probably consider
themselves an elite bunch. And rightly so :)

> But that number represents the potential
> maximum number of users, of which it appears,
> Emacs users amount to some minute portion. (
> some .0006696%).

Yes, people have poor taste. I don't know what
they use. I only know Vim except for Emacs.

By the way, there is an Emacs for Windows too!
But I suspect most Emacs people are on
different flavors of Unix.

[John B.]

On Fri, 04 Aug 2017 10:10:52 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>John B. wrote:
>
>> LaTex is a type setting system and I doubt
>> that, with all of today's word processor it
>> is much used.
>>
>> Even back when I was still working we
>> prepared contract bids, training material,
>> records, proposals, effectually all the
>> documents used by the company, using
>> Word Perfect.
>
>They use LaTeX in the academic world to typeset
>their thesis, at least in math, CS, etc., but
>probably many other fields as well - chemistry?
>biology? It is useful to do charts, formulas,
>diagrams... Maybe in the humanities and social
>studies they use Word or Word Perfect - no
>idea, but I suppose if text is all you
>want/need they would do.
>
>But it is just another example of how the
>number of people using it doesn't say anything
>about the power of the piece of software or
>technology. Actually I think it is completely
>natural it is the other way around...
>

An atomic bomb is much more powerful then a fly swatter too. But what
do you select to kill flies with?

>Last time I checked 299 climbers have been to
>the top of K2. They probably consider
>themselves an elite bunch. And rightly so :)

Does that number include the porters who carry their luggage and
supplies?

>> But that number represents the potential
>> maximum number of users, of which it appears,
>> Emacs users amount to some minute portion. (
>> some .0006696%).
>
>Yes, people have poor taste. I don't know what
>they use. I only know Vim except for Emacs.
>
>By the way, there is an Emacs for Windows too!
>But I suspect most Emacs people are on
>different flavors of Unix.

Frankly with the advent of graphics I can't seem any advantage to
either vi (vim) or Emacs. Sure you can write entire applications in
Emacs with lisp (is it) but today you can download free apps that do
everything that you used to do in Emacs but who cares? After all we
aren't tied to a single black and white dumb terminal any more. Just
click the mouse that presto-chango! a new screen with a new app.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Doug Landau]

mmm, cecilie skog
https://www.google.com/search?q=cecilie+skog&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US751&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH4qz4ib7VAhVKxVQKHUXCCs4Q_AUICigB&biw=1314&bih=666

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 04 Aug 2017 10:34:37 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Yup. If I remember that you could even talk Redwing into giving you a
>bottle of whatever snake-oil that they were selling that month.

I have no idea what they were selling but I do recall that when I
bought the Redwing boots that didn't fit, the seriously overpriced oil
was recommended as a possible fix. Throwing good money after bad
money didn't seem like a good idea, so I declined the offer.

This looks interesting:
<https://www.otterwax.com/products/leather-oil>
"Utilizing a base of oleic-rich safflower oil and fortified
with vitamin-e, our Leather Oil provides a deep shine while
nourishing, protecting, and revitalizing all types of leather".
Made in Portland, Oregon but probably not from otters.

>No one seems to be sitting around oiling their boots :-)

The boots only need to be oiled once per year, unless the oil workers
are walking on cleaning solvents. I do mine before the first rains so
that I don't seal in any water.

>Some of the old farm houses in New England were built in the late
>1700's and early 1800's and "built in" boot scrapers were nearly
>universal. If I remember there were two vertical posts, that held the
>scraper bar, that were set into to holes drilled in the granite step
>on the kitchen steps, of course. I have no idea how they were
>originally set in place but a couple of hundred years later they were
>permanent :-)

We have some local houses that are from the 19th century. They all
have cast iron boot scrapers and mud porches to hand wet clothes and
dirty boots:
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=antique+boot+scraper>
Hmm... no brushes?

The local versions are usually screwed onto a wooden deck or landing.
I managed to position mine where one might most easily trip over it
and where the accumulated mud would spread evenly over the adjacent
steps when it rains. No fatalities in the last 40 years, but plenty
of cursing.

On topic drivel: The pedal extensions just arrived. I see if they
help fit my construction boots this weekend.
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/221745679694>

[John B.]

On Fri, 04 Aug 2017 15:40:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 04 Aug 2017 10:34:37 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Yup. If I remember that you could even talk Redwing into giving you a
>>bottle of whatever snake-oil that they were selling that month.
>
>I have no idea what they were selling but I do recall that when I
>bought the Redwing boots that didn't fit, the seriously overpriced oil
>was recommended as a possible fix. Throwing good money after bad
>money didn't seem like a good idea, so I declined the offer.
>

Interesting. But not applicable, at least in my case, as I always try
on a pair of footwear whether it be boots, shoes or sandals (both
feet) before purchasing :-)

By the way, the Air Force had an interesting method of determining
one's shoe size. When they issued you your uniforms in basic training
they stood you on a sort of "measuring table" with a sort of grid on
it. "Heels here, on that line", "Hold your hands up, shoulder height",
they dropped a 10 lb. sand bag in each hand, looked that grid and
announced your shoe size. When you tried to protest that your shoe
size was actually, "really Sir", a size or so smaller they ignored
you.

Strangely, after three months of marching everywhere you went you
found the new size quite comfortable.

>This looks interesting:
><https://www.otterwax.com/products/leather-oil>
>"Utilizing a base of oleic-rich safflower oil and fortified
>with vitamin-e, our Leather Oil provides a deep shine while
>nourishing, protecting, and revitalizing all types of leather".
>Made in Portland, Oregon but probably not from otters.
>
>>No one seems to be sitting around oiling their boots :-)
>
>The boots only need to be oiled once per year, unless the oil workers
>are walking on cleaning solvents. I do mine before the first rains so
>that I don't seal in any water.

Drilling "floors" are pretty nasty and are frequently washed during a
"tour" (in Texas pronounced "tower") using a very harsh detergent
that is strong enough to cause skin irritation if you don't wash it
off immediately and some of the "mud" chemicals can be pretty harsh
also so boot life is short.

>
>>Some of the old farm houses in New England were built in the late
>>1700's and early 1800's and "built in" boot scrapers were nearly
>>universal. If I remember there were two vertical posts, that held the
>>scraper bar, that were set into to holes drilled in the granite step
>>on the kitchen steps, of course. I have no idea how they were
>>originally set in place but a couple of hundred years later they were
>>permanent :-)
>
>We have some local houses that are from the 19th century. They all
>have cast iron boot scrapers and mud porches to hand wet clothes and
>dirty boots:
><https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=antique+boot+scraper>
>Hmm... no brushes?
>
>The local versions are usually screwed onto a wooden deck or landing.
>I managed to position mine where one might most easily trip over it
>and where the accumulated mud would spread evenly over the adjacent
>steps when it rains. No fatalities in the last 40 years, but plenty
>of cursing.

In the winter, certainly, and in "mud time" which is a New England
expression denoting the months of March, April and May, it was
considered proper to remove one's boots/shoes before entering the
kitchen. Note that the kitchen door was the normal entry as the "front
Door" was reserved for the Pastor and other dignitaries who might come
to call.

>On topic drivel: The pedal extensions just arrived. I see if they
>help fit my construction boots this weekend.
><http://www.ebay.com/itm/221745679694>
--

Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 8/4/2017 7:54 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Aug 2017 15:40:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 04 Aug 2017 10:34:37 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:

-snip-

> By the way, the Air Force had an interesting method of determining
> one's shoe size. When they issued you your uniforms in basic training
> they stood you on a sort of "measuring table" with a sort of grid on
> it. "Heels here, on that line", "Hold your hands up, shoulder height",
> they dropped a 10 lb. sand bag in each hand, looked that grid and
> announced your shoe size. When you tried to protest that your shoe
> size was actually, "really Sir", a size or so smaller they ignored
> you.
>
> Strangely, after three months of marching everywhere you went you
> found the new size quite comfortable.

-snip-

Yours is another fine tribute to general Munson:

"While Professor of Military Hygiene at the Army Service
School in Washington, in 1912, Dr. Munson designed the
military field shoe, the boon to infantrymen, variously
known as the "Munson Last," the "hobnail brogan" of World
War I, and the "G.I. shoe" of World War II. General Munson
wrote several books on Army hygiene, including the
authoritative treatise, The Soldier's Foot and the Military
Shoe."

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/elmunson.htm
and
http://www.russellmoccasin.com/muson-last/

I ran across him in "History of the US Army Medical Service"

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Radey Shouman]

Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com> writes:

> John B. wrote:
>
[ ... ]

>> But that number represents the potential
>> maximum number of users, of which it appears,
>> Emacs users amount to some minute portion. (
>> some .0006696%).
>
> Yes, people have poor taste. I don't know what
> they use. I only know Vim except for Emacs.
>
> By the way, there is an Emacs for Windows too!
> But I suspect most Emacs people are on
> different flavors of Unix.

I use emacs every day at work on a Windoze box. Works great. emacs was
considered a bloated, slow monstrosity years ago, but now bloat has
overtaken it, and emacs is now a comparatively light and fast
application.

Not to mention that I could hardly stand to read Usenet without Gnus.

--

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. wrote:

> Does that number include the porters who
> carry their luggage and supplies?

If they reach the summit (8 611 m), yes.
And this is not uncommon as the Sherpas from
Nepal are better acclimatized from day one and
often superior climbers as well.

> Frankly with the advent of graphics I can't
> seem any advantage to either vi (vim) or
> Emacs. Sure you can write entire applications
> in Emacs with lisp (is it) but today you can
> download free apps that do everything that
> you used to do in Emacs but who cares?
> After all we aren't tied to a single black
> and white dumb terminal any more. Just click
> the mouse that presto-chango! a new screen
> with a new app.

Emacs (or Vim) typically do not attract people
who use the mouse or are fond of downloading
apps in the modern sense, tho there is ELPA,
the Emacs Lisp Package Archive, so virtually
the same is possible and happens every day.
It is as free, and even more free, than
smartphone apps as I've heard sometimes they
charge for them and sometimes they come
with ads.

[Emanuel Berg]

Doug Landau wrote:

> mmm, cecilie skog

Right. Norwegian super-star climber and polaric
explorer. She lost her husband, Rolf Bae, on
K2. The drama-documentary "The Summit" by
Nick Ryan from 2011 is about these 2008 events.
There was a Swede on the mountain as well,
Fredrik Sträng, a bit of a goofball, but at
least he survived.

[Emanuel Berg]

Radey Shouman wrote:

> I use emacs every day at work on a Windoze
> box. Works great. emacs was considered
> a bloated, slow monstrosity years ago, but
> now bloat has overtaken it, and emacs is now
> a comparatively light and fast application.

Bloated is a misused term. Emacs isn't bloated,
it is *loaded*. When you throw one zillion
gizmos on a desktop so that the whole operation
slows down, or you mentally can't focus because
of all the visual noise, this is bloated.
But with Emacs (and a Unix shell for that
matter) it is all hidden below. When you need
it, it is there.

It is like a fully equipped repair shop only no
matter how much equipment you have, you will
never stumble over it and there will always be
room for more.

> Not to mention that I could hardly stand to
> read Usenet without Gnus.

Gnus is the best thing ever!

Here is a dump:

http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/figures/gnus/gnus-group.png

[John B.]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2017 04:52:46 +0200, Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com>
wrote:

Ah but the hand phone app's don't come with a guarantee that they are
"FREE!".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

Emanuel Berg <moa...@zoho.com> writes:

> Radey Shouman wrote:
>
>> I use emacs every day at work on a Windoze
>> box. Works great. emacs was considered
>> a bloated, slow monstrosity years ago, but
>> now bloat has overtaken it, and emacs is now
>> a comparatively light and fast application.
>
> Bloated is a misused term. Emacs isn't bloated,
> it is *loaded*. When you throw one zillion
> gizmos on a desktop so that the whole operation
> slows down, or you mentally can't focus because
> of all the visual noise, this is bloated.
> But with Emacs (and a Unix shell for that
> matter) it is all hidden below. When you need
> it, it is there.

My point was that slow startup used to be a reason some avoided
emacs, it was the reason for the "undump" utility, which was a
pain to deal with if trying to build. Not any more, by modern
standards emacs is almost spartan.

[Emanuel Berg]

Radey Shouman wrote:

> My point was that slow startup used to be
> a reason some avoided emacs, it was the
> reason for the "undump" utility, which was
> a pain to deal with if trying to build.

... When was this? The 80s?

My Emacs takes but a few seconds to start and
without all the custom Elisp it would be even
quicker, virtually zero time.

I also have a very slow computer by modern
standards, a Raspberry-Pi. But it is very cool
- from the UK, of course :)

But even if Emacs' startup it was much, much
slower it wouldn't matter as it shouldn't be
exited. The computer is on 24/7 and so is
Emacs. Maybe this was different in the 80s as
well. I only knew a Mac Plus in the 80s but
granted, what I remember MacWord started all
but instantly, and yes, I switched off the
computer :)

> Not any more, by modern standards emacs is
> almost spartan.

There is, to my knowledge, no application that
is comparable to Emacs in that Emacs is a text
and code editor, an e-mail and Usenet
client (Gnus), a web-browser (Emacs w3m), an
IRC client (erc), a browser of documentation
(the man and info pages), a package manager
(the ELPA and MELPA just mentioned), a file
browser (dired), a shell, and tons of other
things as well. It is the opposite of spartan -
it is everything.

And this is what people who use it like, that
everything is under one roof and the
customization and extention interface and
programming environment is the same for
everything.

It is like a drug that has ruined many a young
man's career. Just like fishing and bikes.
But what do you need a career for when you have
Emacs, fishing, and bikes?

[Doug Landau]

On Friday, August 4, 2017 at 7:55:42 PM UTC-7, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Doug Landau wrote:
>
> > mmm, cecilie skog
>
> Right. Norwegian super-star climber and polaric
> explorer. She lost her husband, Rolf Bae, on
> K2. The drama-documentary "The Summit" by
> Nick Ryan from 2011 is about these 2008 events.
> There was a Swede on the mountain as well,
> Fredrik Sträng, a bit of a goofball, but at
> least he survived.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Skzs32Ai4 13:55

[Emanuel Berg]

Doug Landau wrote:

>> Right. Norwegian super-star climber and
>> polaric explorer. She lost her husband, Rolf
>> Bae, on K2. The drama-documentary "The
>> Summit" by Nick Ryan from 2011 is about
>> these 2008 events. There was a Swede on the
>> mountain as well, Fredrik Sträng, a bit of
>> a goofball, but at least he survived.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Skzs32Ai4
> 13:55

Yes, Dren Mandić, Serbia, and Jehan Baig,
Pakistan, two of a total eleven casualties on
K2, August 2008.

The others, sorted randomly, are:

Jumik Nepal
Kyeong-Hyo Park Korea
Dong-Jin Hwang Korea
Gerard McDonnell Ireland
Hyo-Gyeong Kim Korea
Hugues D'Aubarede France
Rolf Bae Norway
Karim Meherban Pakistan
Pasang Bhote Nepal