True Temper calling it quits

[Doug Landau]

I guess this is old news by now.

http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/c33-tubing/142-true-temper-to-discontinue-bicycle-tubing-line

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/c26-frame-builders/189-classic-rendezvous-weekend-tales-from-a-different-era

https://www.google.com/#q=bicycle+frame+tubing+sets

I doahn no nothing abt tubing.

Canoe n kayak materials in a similar market area began serious developments in plastics/fiberglass/resins as ‘composites’ with ABS 40 years ago. First rotomolded plastic hulls appeared at that time.

Downsizing the defense industry following USSR’s failure led to new entrepreneurs in the area.

Today, plastic solid hulls are use able and cheap compared to handwork in ‘composites’ giving a cost ceiling in the market for those who have the $$$$ for composite performance into ultra lights where a kayak hull in expedition kevlar at 16’ weighs 50 pounds , in UL as low as 20.

Or a plastic (Tupperware) hull for $1500 compared to $3000 for the Kevlar hull in a less sophisticated hull design ( not as fast) but so durable that dragging one on over short portage is not unknown. Play boat kayaks run whitewater with ease then the hardy n skilled fall of waterfalls.

Paddlers in Walmart kayaks often drown.

There is no TdF Armstrong USPS in the sport but with Tupperware a serious increase in water parks on small town rivers as an economic stimulus.

Aging builders aged with the market trend into tupperware leaving fewer composite types with consolidation into larger small manufacturing facilities eg Wenonah/Current Designs.

Recently, canoe builders lost Royalex.

http://www.canoekayak.com/canoe/life-after-royalex/#37ECTS0Edy7mCUjD.97

I have 2 Royalex rock bashers and a Kevlar expedition sea kayak.

After the defense shrinkage, the manufacturer for neoprene for et suits left town but production was picked up elsewhere.

The scene looks like TdF USPS into touring but in a kayak or canoe the exertion level is as low as you choose but access to water is significantly more expensive.

While there are significant reasons for composites survival in the Tupperware market, so far, the quantity for steel vs aluminum or CF are is less and more ephemeral. Steel is real doesn’t cut it with a new entry buyer.

Composites are real. Jus doahn drag it across the portage. Kayak like Magellan

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 5:28:33 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
> I guess this is old news by now.
>
> http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/c33-tubing/142-true-temper-to-discontinue-bicycle-tubing-line

This is exceedingly stupid since there is about to be an entirely regrowth of steel frames. At all of the local shops sales of road CF have almost completely ceased as more and more people have seen frame and fork failures.

[Joerg]

On 2016-12-29 17:28, Doug Landau wrote:
> I guess this is old news by now.
>
> http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/c33-tubing/142-true-temper-to-discontinue-bicycle-tubing-line
>

It is unusual considering the renewed interest in steel. Even old
experienced manufacturers say that, like in the article at the bottom of
your link:

http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/c26-frame-builders/227-battaglin-to-focus-on-steel-and-phase-out-carbon-fiber-frames

--
Regards, Joerg (riding steel frame)

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Tim McNamara]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 07:47:51 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

> On 2016-12-29 17:28, Doug Landau wrote:
>> I guess this is old news by now.
>>
>> http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/c33-tubing/142-true-temper-to-discontinue-bicycle-tubing-line
>>
>
> It is unusual considering the renewed interest in steel. Even old
> experienced manufacturers say that, like in the article at the bottom
> of your link:
>
> http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/c26-frame-builders/227-battaglin-to-focus-on-steel-and-phase-out-carbon-fiber-frames

There is a steel resurgence? Where? I don't go to bike shops more than
a couple times a year so maybe I've missed it. I don't see any steel
bikes in most of them- aluminum and CF predominate.

All my bikes are steel but I am not exactly up to date. One's a hub gear
3 sp, one's a 7 speed, two are 8 speeds and all the derailleur bikes
have DT friction shifters. Oh, forgot the tandem which has 9 sp STI.
When I go into bike shops, most of the bikes on offer look like aline
technology to me...

[David Scheidt]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

:On 2016-12-29 17:28, Doug Landau wrote:
:> I guess this is old news by now.
:>
:> http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/c33-tubing/142-true-temper-to-discontinue-bicycle-tubing-line
:>

:It is unusual considering the renewed interest in steel. Even old
:experienced manufacturers say that, like in the article at the bottom of
:your link:

:http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/c26-frame-builders/227-battaglin-to-focus-on-steel-and-phase-out-carbon-fiber-frames

Tha'ts because they can't possibly compete with the chinese mass
prouced carbon frames. Steel is a nich product, and the labor costs
are lower.

--
sig 57

[jbeattie]

Hardly true around here. A few of my local bike shops: https://www.westernbikeworks.com/search/road-bikes http://rivercitybicycles.com/catalog/bike-inventory/
http://www.bikegallery.com/product-list/bikes-1000/?rb_ct=1001

O.K., here are some steel bikes: https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/index.php?category=483
http://clevercycles.com/bicycles/city

My neighborhood bike shop has lots of steel bikes, but it specializes in "classic" bikes. http://www.burlingamebikes.com/the-classics/

This is not to say that we don't have a lot of steel builders, but custom built is a whole different market than OTC steel bikes. http://oregonbikelist.com/list

What I have seen is the market turning more towards carbon with even low-ish end bikes having full carbon forks. I have not been seeing a lot of failed carbon, notwithstanding Tom's failures. Not saying it doesn't happen, but the incident rate is not so high that the market is abandoning CF (and it would if the risk were that high).

-- Jay Beattie.

[jbeattie]

The 7-11 team saw a lot of True Temper steel tube failures. http://roadbikeaction.com/features/rba-features/the-real-story-of-the-7-eleven-team-bikes
http://velosniper.blogspot.com/2008/10/bob-rolls-1988-7-11-team-serotta-huffy.html The riders quit riding their ultra-light steel bikes and switched to other makers and tubes, Hampsten for example. http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/historic-pro-bike-andy-hampstens-1988-7-eleven-huffy-giro-ditalia/ Even steel can be dangerous.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/30/2016 11:54 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> What I have seen is the market turning more towards carbon with even low-ish end bikes having full carbon forks. I have not been seeing a lot of failed carbon, notwithstanding Tom's failures. Not saying it doesn't happen, but the incident rate is not so high that the market is abandoning CF (and it would if the risk were that high).

Having shopped for a friend's bike this summer, I'll confirm that carbon
forks are everywhere. Which is fine, but I wish (and she wished) that
more of them came with fender eyelets and clearance for somewhat fatter
tires.

She ended up with a steel Bianchi. (Thanks again for the tip, Andrew.)
Not that she or I had steel as a requirement. It's just that it was
almost the only bike that had the features she wanted.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

I think that is exactly the reason. They can't compete with the low end (cost) and high end (know how) CF frames.
My LBS had them in their collection for a while but they didn't sell. Too expensive.

Lou

[Joerg]

Probably. It's the same almost everywhere. I design electronics and
every time a client transfers production to Asia the cost drops to half
or less. Including materials and all. The quality is usually superb (I
often get to check that). Overcoming such a large difference is going to
be a tall order. The cost of doing business in the US is too high. How
much that (hopefully) improves with the new administration remains to be
seen.

If I'd need a new bike it would have a titanium frame. Probably from
Bikesdirect.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

the aforementioned posters are shoveling shit getting yawl into THEIR post.

while steel is real in a custom bike Ti is more real...and equally endangered.

at what level $$$$$ for custom does an extra shovel of $$$$ interfere with surreality

?

CF gives me a headache. In kayak canoe and bicycle. neurotic ... Ima gonna get an aspirin.

what CF malfunctions ? we have looked hi and lo for reports n found barely a handful with a couplah fork disasters....also finding malfunction reports go back to the factory not to liability insurance adjusters n the State Board

[Joerg]

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn29u7GoqPk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAZ95CBkKOo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9Hpw62w9bE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q5eCREqGuo

[AMuzi]

Dear Gene-
https://images.devilfinder.com/go.php?q=broken+carbon+bicycle

everything breaks.


--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 8:30:47 AM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:

The bikes that the shops are stocking are aluminum and carbon fiber and for the last two month sales have almost stopped. I stopped in to a local old-timey shop that stocks steel only and although sales are slow they are at their normal level.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Jay, the newer lighter CF bikes are going to have to age for 3 to 10 years before they begin failing. There will be incidental failures very soon that have to do with bubbles in the layup and such but for the most part young riders that have recently bought high end carbon are going to think complaints about the material crazy until it ages a bit.

I talked to steel bike builders and asked them if they had failures and several of them said "yes". Then I asked them if any of these failures were catastrophic and they all said, "no". The catastrophic failures of carbon fiber are all over the Internet.

If the UCI retains the present weight limit steel bikes can meet it and I think that you will see the end of CF. They are too expensive and they are too stiff for racing.

Somebody or another was arguing that stiffness part but I have all three and have ridden them all within days of each other - all Colnagos. And I can most assuredly tell the difference.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

In my experience Japanese and Taiwanese products are good. But Taiwanese and Chinese products have very spotty quality control. Hell even a non-stick saucepan has even butter sticking to it.

[Joerg]

My MTB buddy has a lot of MTB. Two Specialized FS bikes, two fat bikes
from Bikesdirect and a titanium HT from Bikesdirect. The quality on all
of them is great, welds, geometric precision, build quality in general.
The titanium bike impresses me the most. It has seen a lot of crashes
and doesn't even have a dent.

The only downside I see with Ti-frames is that all of the ones I have
seen so far lack mounts for luggage racks and stuff. Something that even
the Gazelle steel frame of my road bike has. So you end up doing the
usual, making brackets. Well, nothing is perfect.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Titanium road bikes were notorious for splitting longitudinally at the welds. My Colnago BiTitan was one of those and since it was second hand Colnago laughed in my face.

One of the group members has a Litespeed and I warned him where to look and he gave me a ration of s. The VERY next week he didn't show up for the ride because his frake had split just where I told him to look. It was replaced but he has reservations now. Now as I say, these cracks were longitudinally along the tubes and probably weren't dangerous but would you like to be riding on a broken expensive frame when they have a lifetime guarantee for the original owner?

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

everything breaks.

super collection

however, as per the successful CF market....the images are of crash damage n heavy handed mechanicry. The split head tube is a gem. Several appear as hit with an ax

the bin looks like artwork. no where in the blip blip do we collect that many broken CF frames ? LA ?

you have the report....how many CF frames are there on the road in the US ?

[Joerg]

Interesting, first time I hear of that issue. So that means our
grandparents knew best and we should go back to Reynolds 531?

I was very surprised when I saw the steel frame of my road bike being
offered at auctions for several hundred bucks. It is definitely not a
collectors bike. The only reason it gets many looks is that it is over
30years old.

Steel has one major advantage in that it can be welded/brazed without
super special equipment and skills. So frame mods are possible.
Something I truly wish I could do with my MTB but that's all hydroformed
aluminum.

[jbeattie]

Does anyone make a double-suspended steel MTB frame?

-- Jay Beattie.

[DougC]

For a while there it seemed like we were seeing fairly-regular stories
of road bike carbon fork failures, even among amateurs not trying to
break them. This was around the time the companies making them stopped
using steel steerer tubes and went to full-carbon construction, IIRC.

'Course, steel probably went through this phase also. But it was 100-odd
years ago....

I still get flack online for suggesting that CF bike parts are
disposable, and shouldn't be repaired.

Others insist it's okay since Calfee and a couple other places will take
your money and put more plastic goop on it for you, but no other
endeavor elsewhere does that (planes, cars, boats, other sporting goods
equipment, ect).

With everything else--any time you suffer structural damage in a
composite part, you throw it away and you go buy a new one.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

? All composites are repairable from Stealth tO Kayak ....

[John B.]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 21:35:34 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
wrote:

Not true. I have a good friend who's business is essentially repairing
and rebuilding composite boats, the EAA has rather extensive
instructions for repairing damaged composite home built aircraft and
Chevrolet Corvette's have been made with composite bodies since the
early 50's and I doubt that the owners threw them away when they
dinged a fender.

>With everything else--any time you suffer structural damage in a
>composite part, you throw it away and you go buy a new one.

--
cheers,

John B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Repairing a "part' as the fork is not a reasonable idea.

What we found in the past CF discussion was 'stories' of broken forks did not generate incident evidence tho the search was clouded by lack of accessible data.

That is, forks may have cracked but stories of fork failures at speed leading to extensive plasting surgery did not play out.

At that time consensus here was CF fork use was unnecessarily risky, evidence or not.

[DougC]

Yea but boat hulls, aircraft skin and car body panels aren't
highly-stressed structural parts like a bicycle frame is.

They make composite aircraft propellers, does anybody repair them if
they suffer structural damage?

The Corvette uses a fiberglass leaf spring in the rear, does anybody
repair them if they crack or split?

Composites are a bunch of long interleaved fibers, with some plastic
sticking them together. Once you get a crack in one spot, the
interleaved fibers are broken in half right there and there's no way to
make it back the way it was before it broke.

What do these CF bicycle frame companies have to say about trying to
repair a cracked frame?....I would bet they'd say it's not a wise idea.
....If it was, they would offer that service, right?
Because, you know, they could do it better than anyone else, right?...

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

gnaw ...the biz runs on selling bikes.

........ fewer failures the better no prob.

........ no repair is best


anyway, 2-3 layers of cloth over a fracture is srong enough.

the prob maybe with bike frames is the failure occurs near the joint ( one in the Muzi collection ?) a cloth wrap is difficult, unsightly ! yuch ! and idea would arises the crack is a defect manifestation in manufacturing the joint...strongly implying the joint crack is repairable but the joint isnot.

so a top tube crack in middle due to accidently dropping that pt against a cement wall edge is fixable with a coupla layers of cloth overlapping crack 6" each side.

https://www.amazon.com/Boatbuilders-Manual-Charles-C-Walbridge/dp/0897320220

[AMuzi]

Let's not be categorical about that (or any material).

There are several good experienced carbon bicycle repair
guys besides Calfee. A quick perusal of their web photos
might elucidate the range of repairs for you. I assume that
just like steel there are jobs they refuse, where
cost/risk/value don't align well.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

John, do you have the idea that they stick the crashed front end of a Corvette back together? Or a wing section of a small aircraft? What are these composite boats that you're talking about that are constructed with mostly carbon fiber?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Colnago said that these frames should be DISCARDED after more than two years of use. They do not offer any sort of repairs. The race team bikes are discarded after mere months of use.

Now I'm sure that the majority of these frames and forks have plenty of life left in them but the point is that you cannot tell until a catastrophic failure occurs. And from SEVERAL experiences I can tell you that it isn't fun. So I'm back to steel and NOT one of the latest models that can match the CF bikes in weight.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Andrew - Doug is entirely correct. Repairing a high stress CF construction with any success is highly questionable. If it's a something where you don't mind highly overbuilt bulges in the repairs perhaps it would work or perhaps not. Such things might make a stiffer spot on the frame that would focus stress.

You have to be very touchy about these things especially in such a litigious society.

[AMuzi]

We don't disagree that failures/repairs cover a wide range
and that risk, both physical and tort, is a real factor.
That said, guys do repair at least some broken carbon frames:

http://www.carbonframerepair.com/
http://www.carbonframefix.com/
https://predatorcycling.com/pages/carbon-repair
http://kanebikes.com/carbonrepair/
https://www.applemanbicycles.com/repair/
http://spydercomposites.com/
etc etc

[jbeattie]

On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 6:08:56 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:

Here in Portland, Ruckus is renowned for its CF frame repairs. http://www.ruckuscomp.com/ I'm sure it's not cheap.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

I am always on the lookout for a titanium FS bike in 29", or at least
large frame 27-1/2" in the more affordable category. Haven't seen
anything so far.

If money is not an important parameter there seem to be options though.

http://kenteriksen.com/bikes/mountain-bikes/

Quote "Brad Bingham designed All-Titanium, full suspension frame –
650B/27.5″ wheel and 29’er wheel".

[Andrew Chaplin]

jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote in
news:f7b36c64-2454-4cb8...@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 7:44:16 AM UTC-8, cycl...@gmail.com
> wrote:

>> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 5:28:33 PM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
>> > I guess this is old news by now.
>> >
>> > http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/c33-tubing/142-true-temper-to-dis
>> > co
> ntinue-bicycle-tubing-line
>>

>> This is exceedingly stupid since there is about to be an entirely
>> regrowt
> h of steel frames. At all of the local shops sales of road CF have
> almost completely ceased as more and more people have seen frame and
> fork failures.
>
> The 7-11 team saw a lot of True Temper steel tube failures.
> http://roadbikeaction.com/features/rba-features/the-real-story-of-the-7-
> eleven-team-bikes
> http://velosniper.blogspot.com/2008/10/bob-rolls-1988-7-11-team-serotta-
> huffy.html The riders quit riding their ultra-light steel bikes and
> switched to other makers and tubes, Hampsten for example.
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/historic-pro-bike-andy-hampstens-198
> 8-7-eleven-huffy-giro-ditalia/ Even steel can be dangerous.

That is really rather sad. Well, Colnago and Cinelli did not build their
reputations overnight.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 3:17:54 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> If the UCI retains the present weight limit steel bikes can meet it and I think that you will see the end of CF. They are too expensive and they are too stiff for racing.
>

14.6 pounds is the current UCI weight limit I think. I doubt there are any steel bikes on earth that meet this limit. Definitely not with a steel fork. And the few aluminum or titanium bikes that meet this limit are somewhat sketchy. To get a frame and fork light enough to meet this limit, you have to use very little material. Steel, aluminum, titanium are just too dense. The wall thickness on tubes would have to be paper thin.

Carbon fiber frames too expensive? Trek, Specialized, Giant (the major bike makers in the world/USA) have carbon bikes for around $1500 brand new today. Not that expensive really. But I suppose this depends on your perspective. Some folks think anything above $9.99 is outrageously expensive.

Carbon fiber too stiff for racing? Ha Ha Ho Ho. Most racers want a bike frame stiffer than a steel girder.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

http://spydercomposites.com/

||||||||||||

https://www.google.com/#q=Carbon+fiber+is+X-ray+transparent

https://www.google.com/#q=how+to+detect+cracks+in+carbon+fiber+composites

ultralight cf hulls are fragile. These hulls, like the bikes, whisper over the water propelled by the breath of angels.

…. when yawl drop one off ur SUV roof, yawl blown $3800.

Off course repairs are available.
See here:

https://www.google.com/#q=canoes+ultra+light+manufactuers

http://www.savageriver.com/canoes/recreational/blackhawk

I’m from the Volvo School of indestructible equipment.

I have a Wenonah Solo Plus river runner in royalex…one of the last on the shelf. Perfect all round runner…could use more glide… The hull has a full river touring rig, 3 dry bags O ringed to hull with 2 air bags front n rear.

We land, drag onto beach, set up camp n eat dinner in 30 minutes.

Loading up for a long paddle down the Rio, the hull started a hehehhe snort snort snort conversation abt fetching ultra light paddlers from the canyons with hulls cracked open beyond mil spec duck tape.

No problem buying a used UL hull. Reading the ads is snort snort hehehhe....

The breath of angels….amazing yet ephemeral

[John B.]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 06:55:21 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
wrote:

>On 12/31/2016 12:02 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 21:35:34 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> For a while there it seemed like we were seeing fairly-regular stories
>>> of road bike carbon fork failures, even among amateurs not trying to
>>> break them. This was around the time the companies making them stopped
>>> using steel steerer tubes and went to full-carbon construction, IIRC.
>>>
>>> 'Course, steel probably went through this phase also. But it was 100-odd
>>> years ago....
>>>
>>> I still get flack online for suggesting that CF bike parts are
>>> disposable, and shouldn't be repaired.
>>>
>>> Others insist it's okay since Calfee and a couple other places will take
>>> your money and put more plastic goop on it for you, but no other
>>> endeavor elsewhere does that (planes, cars, boats, other sporting goods
>>> equipment, ect).
>>
>> Not true. I have a good friend who's business is essentially repairing
>> and rebuilding composite boats, the EAA has rather extensive
>> instructions for repairing damaged composite home built aircraft and
>> Chevrolet Corvette's have been made with composite bodies since the
>> early 50's and I doubt that the owners threw them away when they
>> dinged a fender.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Yea but boat hulls, aircraft skin and car body panels aren't
>highly-stressed structural parts like a bicycle frame is.
>

A monocoque aircraft fuselage does have a stressed skin, in fact that
is all there is :-) And boat hulls are highly stressed, well highly
stressed if you get in bad weather anyway. After all the skin of a
composite boat is all there is.

>They make composite aircraft propellers, does anybody repair them if
>they suffer structural damage?

Of course they do. See
http://www.aviationpros.com/article/10375094/composite-blade-repair

>The Corvette uses a fiberglass leaf spring in the rear, does anybody
>repair them if they crack or split?
>
>Composites are a bunch of long interleaved fibers, with some plastic
>sticking them together. Once you get a crack in one spot, the
>interleaved fibers are broken in half right there and there's no way to
>make it back the way it was before it broke.

You know not of what you speak. See West Systems site or fibreglast,
or any other composite site. They all provide information on repairing
composite structures.

>
>What do these CF bicycle frame companies have to say about trying to
>repair a cracked frame?....I would bet they'd say it's not a wise idea.
>....If it was, they would offer that service, right?
>Because, you know, they could do it better than anyone else, right?...

A CF frame company is in the business of selling frames. Not fixing
broken frames. Just as are all the other frame companies. Is there any
bicycle company that offers to repair your busted bicycle? I've never
heard of any, they can't be bothered so they give you a new frame.

By the way, I know a shop in Singapore that repairs fiberglass bicycle
frames. I asked the guy if he ever had a repaired frame break and he
said, "never one I repaired". The discussion came about as I saw a
stripped CF frame sitting the shop and asked if he was selling frames
now and he told me that he repaired them.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 08:20:07 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>650B/27.5? wheel and 29’er wheel".

I have to ask. Why this lusting after Titanium?
--
cheers,

John B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

picked up a Ti MTB ?

crawl over to the LBS n hoist one

[Greg Berchin]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 16:37:00 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<russell...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Carbon fiber frames too expensive? Trek, Specialized, Giant (the major
>bike makers in the world/USA) have carbon bikes for around $1500 brand
>new today. Not that expensive really.

FWIW, the $1500 all-carbon Fuji Altamira 1.1 that I bought last year
weighs exactly one pound less than the all-steel Paramount OS that I
bought in 1989. The Paramount has 32-spoke wheels while the Fuji has
28/24; other than that the two are similarly configured. Frame weight is
only a fraction of total weight, so beyond a certain point weight
savings have to be found elsewhere.

>Carbon fiber too stiff for racing? Ha Ha Ho Ho. Most racers want a
>bike frame stiffer than a steel girder.

The ride quality of the two frames is remarkably similar; the carbon
frame is a little better in climbs and sprints. I still wish that it was
stiffer. Oh, I'm 6'4" and 220 lbs.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

take components off n weigh

weigh frames

deduct.

we'll be here.

calls for weinie check

no weenie, reviews confuse.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/1/2017 9:06 AM, Greg Berchin wrote:
>
>
> FWIW, the $1500 all-carbon Fuji Altamira 1.1 that I bought last year
> weighs exactly one pound less than the all-steel Paramount OS that I
> bought in 1989. The Paramount has 32-spoke wheels while the Fuji has
> 28/24; other than that the two are similarly configured. Frame weight is
> only a fraction of total weight, so beyond a certain point weight
> savings have to be found elsewhere.

And having just come through the holidays, I find that I've got five
pounds of easily available weight savings somewhere around my middle!
I'm amazed at how little time that took. :-/


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

I am not necessarily lusting after it but ...

1. It seems to be nearly indestructible. As evidenced by the Ti-MTB of a
friend why has seen years of hard use and lots of crashes.

2. The bikes hold their resale value well AFAICS.

3. It is very light weight for its strength. That isn't much of a
concern to me though since I'll never subscribe to this weight craze of
many cyclists.

4. Non-painted Ti-frames look very cool. Not a concern for me but for
others.

5. Frame mods are feasible because you can weld to it.

6. There are hardly any steel frames offered although that might change
soon. Carbon is something I wish not to ride on harsh turf. So I am
riding aluminum now. It's ok but one major rock hit at the wrong spot
can ruin the day. I get lots of rock hits on trails out here.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

as with anaerobic condition, age is negative

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

https://www.google.com/#q=used+titianium+mtb+bicycles+for+sale

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The UCI limit is 16.2 lbs I believe. I have sent them a letter asking whether they are going to drop their limits and their response was noncommittal.

There are several steel bikes now advertised as being at the weight limit.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Boats are NOT built either light nor sensitive to quite heavy repairs. Aircraft are NOT stressed skin but framed and with part of the load carried by the skin. Name ONE aircraft in which the wings are not supported by a frame structure.

The manufacturer of bikes are the EXPERTS at what is good for their frames and not you. To suggest that some repair company that has you sign a complete release for their work somehow is more skilled is pretty silly.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I've been weighing my bikes on my home hanging scale. But I rode with a man yesterday who has a Torrelli with the mass produced fork. This bike as set up should have weighed about what my Merckx does but he weighed his on a bike shop floor scale and said his bike was 3 lbs lighter than what I measured so I'll have to check my calibration.

The carbon fiber bikes I've had ALL were much stiffer than my steel bikes except for my old Look which had aluminum lugs. My Time was so stiff that I simply couldn't ride it. I'm 6'4" and at the time I was riding my Time I was about 210 lbs. The C40 was extremely stiff but not as bad as the Time. But that might have been because it was lighter and could bounce around under me more.

[Tim McNamara]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 08:54:11 -0800 (PST), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>
wrote:
>
> What I have seen is the market turning more towards carbon with even
> low-ish end bikes having full carbon forks. I have not been seeing a
> lot of failed carbon, notwithstanding Tom's failures. Not saying it
> doesn't happen, but the incident rate is not so high that the market
> is abandoning CF (and it would if the risk were that high).

I see the same trend, but am admittedly not looking that close. I would
go in the opposite direction, myself- steel fork and CF frame- given the
failure mode of CF being what it is. I've seen fewer reports of
catastrophic failures in the past 5 year sor so, but I may just not be
paying as much attention as formerly. There are a few recent recalls
and old ones on the CPSC site:

<https://www.cpsc.gov/search?site=cpsc_site&output=xml_no_dtd&getfields=*&tlen=120&client=ek_drupal_01&proxystylesheet=ek_drupal_01&filter=p&query=carbon+fiber+bicycle&ie=UTF-8&ulang=&ip=52.72.140.193&access=p&entqr=3&entqrm=0&wc=200&wc_mc=1&oe=UTF-8&ud=1&sort=date%3AD%3AS%3Ad1>

I notice almost all if not all are CF related.

[Tim McNamara]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 09:48:27 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>
> Probably. It's the same almost everywhere. I design electronics and
> every time a client transfers production to Asia the cost drops to
> half or less. Including materials and all. The quality is usually
> superb (I often get to check that). Overcoming such a large difference
> is going to be a tall order. The cost of doing business in the US is
> too high. How much that (hopefully) improves with the new
> administration remains to be seen.

Well, if Trump can make American workers accept $5.00/hour labor rates
with no health insurance, retirement benefits, paid time off, etc., then
maybe the cost of doing business in America will improve to the level of
China for the supply siders. Maybe we can order a lot of big cardboard
boxes from China for our workforce to live in.

It is interestng to note that productivity and wages in the US increased
very closely together in post-war America from 1947-1970, which grew
the middle class dramatically, then began to decouple as automation and
information technology (and foreign competition) began to impact wages.
Productivity per capita has continued to grow while wages have been
basically flat (corrected for inflation) for over 45 years (especially
from 1992 on). The difference in value between productivity and wages
has been diverted to Wall Street, CEOs, etc., and away from workers. My
parents' generation (becoming adults between 1945-1955) resided in the
sweet spot for income growth and being able to retire. Many in my
generation (born 1959) and later will be post-peak Americans and will
not share in that properity as well as the preceeding generation, thanks
to wrong-headed conservatism ruling the political discourse since 1980.
Regulatory, fiscal, monetary and tax policies now transfer hundreds of
billions of dollars from the pockets of the middle class into the
pockets of the wealthy. Good for you if you're one of the latter, not
so good for you if you're anyone else.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Op zondag 1 januari 2017 18:10:05 UTC+1 schreef cycl...@gmail.com:

Hmmm, writing the UCI about the weight limit and not knowing it yourself? It is 6.8 kg.

> There are several steel bikes now advertised as being at the weight limit.

A steel bike of 6.8 kg I don't want to ride. I don't think there are any btw.



Lou

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Op zondag 1 januari 2017 18:23:37 UTC+1 schreef cycl...@gmail.com:

According to current standards the C40 is a dinosaur, in stiffness where it counts, comfort and certainly weight. Colnagos are about looks and the paintjob. I read an interview in TOUR magazin with Ernesto Colnago in which he explained how he designed a new frame. I was shocked about the amateurism. Italian mystique. YMMV,

Lou

[Greg Berchin]

On Sun, 1 Jan 2017 09:23:31 -0800 (PST), cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

>The carbon fiber bikes I've had ALL were much stiffer than my steel
>bikes except for my old Look which had aluminum lugs.

The Altamira is my first ever carbon frame, so I can only comment about
it and cannot generalize. The BB on the Altamira feels stiffer than that
of the steel Paramount, so the Altamira feels a bit more responsive when
I really get on it in the initial strokes of a sprint. However,
torsional stiffness, judged (subjectively) by how much the frame
deflects when pushing down on the pedal while simultaneously pulling up
on the handlebar on the same side, as in a hard climb, is a different
matter. I expected the carbon frame, with its 60mm diameter down tube,
to be like trying to twist granite. As it turns out, it doesn't feel
significantly stiffer than the steel frame. For ride harshness, they're
both about the same.

>My Time was so
>stiff that I simply couldn't ride it. I'm 6'4" and at the time I was
>riding my Time I was about 210 lbs. The C40 was extremely stiff but not
>as bad as the Time. But that might have been because it was lighter and
>could bounce around under me more.

My reference for stiffness is my ancient 1988 GT Karakoram mountain bike
with Tange MTB tubing (probably 1.2/0.9/1.2 mm wall thickness on my 22"
frame). Stiffest bike I've ever ridden, but it weighs well over 30 lbs.

[DougC]

On 12/31/2016 10:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 06:55:21 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
> wrote:

>> ,,,,

>> Composites are a bunch of long interleaved fibers, with some plastic
>> sticking them together. Once you get a crack in one spot, the
>> interleaved fibers are broken in half right there and there's no way to
>> make it back the way it was before it broke.
>
> You know not of what you speak. See West Systems site or fibreglast,
> or any other composite site. They all provide information on repairing
> composite structures.

No, you don't.

High-performance composite parts derive their strength from the length
and arrangement of fibers, not the plastic. They are intended to have
very particular bending/stress distribution characteristics. Once they
get structural damage, there's no way to restore them to the way they
were before they broke.

What these frame-repair places do is slather more CF and plastic around
the outside. But around ANY repair they make, there is a boundary of
plastic ONLY, with no fibers crossing it..... That's like someone
getting a crack in a steel butted-tube frame and welding split gas pipe
around the broken area, and then claiming "it's fixed because there's
metal holding it all together".
...That may *work*, but it's not like it was before.

And is that not the reason one buys a high-cost CF frame in the first
place? To get the light weight and riding performance it was engineered for?

Nobody fixes composite airplane propellers if you manage get a crack at
a blade ROOT or the hub. Tip damage and edge chips are cosmetic damage,
not structural damage.

Nobody fixes Corvette leaf springs (tho quite a few people occasionally
ruin them with their exhaust cut-outs).

There is reasons for these things.

The entire CF bike frame repair industry is capitalizing on owners who
are too cheap to toss a ruined frame, and aren't quite as educated
cyclists as they think they are.

[DougC]

On 12/31/2016 1:18 AM, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> Repairing a "part' as the fork is not a reasonable idea.
>

But why not?
If any composite part is always repairable?

[Frank Krygowski]

I don't think anyone here said "any composite part is always repairable."

Speaking as broadly as possible, some items - metal or composite, bikes
or cars or lawn mowers or airplanes or whatever - are more economical to
replace than repair. I imagine carbon fiber forks are in that category.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/1/2017 2:25 PM, DougC wrote:
> On 12/31/2016 10:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 06:55:21 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
>> wrote:
>>> ,,,,
>>> Composites are a bunch of long interleaved fibers, with some plastic
>>> sticking them together. Once you get a crack in one spot, the
>>> interleaved fibers are broken in half right there and there's no way to
>>> make it back the way it was before it broke.
>>
>> You know not of what you speak. See West Systems site or fibreglast,
>> or any other composite site. They all provide information on repairing
>> composite structures.
>
> No, you don't.
>
> High-performance composite parts derive their strength from the length
> and arrangement of fibers, not the plastic. They are intended to have
> very particular bending/stress distribution characteristics. Once they
> get structural damage, there's no way to restore them to the way they
> were before they broke.

I agree that the bike will be a bit heavier after the repair. The frame
will probably be a bit thicker in the area of the repair as well. But I
think the differences can be small enough to be unnoticeable while
riding. And I don't think the repaired frame is necessarily weaker than
the original.

>
> What these frame-repair places do is slather more CF and plastic around
> the outside. But around ANY repair they make, there is a boundary of
> plastic ONLY, with no fibers crossing it..... That's like someone
> getting a crack in a steel butted-tube frame and welding split gas pipe
> around the broken area, and then claiming "it's fixed because there's
> metal holding it all together".
> ...That may *work*, but it's not like it was before.
>
> And is that not the reason one buys a high-cost CF frame in the first
> place? To get the light weight and riding performance it was engineered
> for?
>
> Nobody fixes composite airplane propellers if you manage get a crack at
> a blade ROOT or the hub. Tip damage and edge chips are cosmetic damage,
> not structural damage.
>
> Nobody fixes Corvette leaf springs (tho quite a few people occasionally
> ruin them with their exhaust cut-outs).
>
> There is reasons for these things.

People fix composite airliner fuselages.
http://aviationweek.com/awin/787-fire-repair-boosts-composites-confidence

--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Since I'm an EE and embedded systems designer and programmer I have to ask some questions: How can the price of electronics be reduced to 50% when the items that compose the majority of the price are American integrated circuits? Most circuit boards are not micro-sized and production is automated since things are too small to see with anything but a microscope.

Do you see something wrong with wages achieving a plateau? The only reason you would expect it to go up is either a shortage of workers who increased competition for their labor or the case which did occur - H1B workers POURING into this country forcing top wages in this country down on the average.

With the destruction of the tariffs the ASSEMBLY taken overseas reduced the cost of assembly usually via a phoney exchange rate.

None of this should ever have occurred and you will notice that the destruction of the middle classes has NOT occurred under Republicans but under Democrats. It's pretty disgusting that union jobs disappeared which union leaders were getting rich supporting the very people that were getting rid of their members jobs.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

spiff work there Colnago ! Col nows the market.

the weight limit bears on racing as a limit protecting riders from Colin Chapman, crash tested to get up n continue.

the euro racing scene is roller derby as is, tech need not interfere/.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

http://www.rodbikes.com/catalog/outlaw/outlaw-main.html

This is only a single example. In fact there are quite a few to chose from.

You wouldn't ride a lightweight steel frame but you'd have no problems riding lightweight carbon fiber frames and forks?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Big surprise that stiffness is increased by increasing tubing and steerer diameters. I am quite sure that it still wouldn't begin to compare with that Time Edge VX. The bike was all but unrideable on anything other than perfectly smooth road.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 11:04:06 AM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:

Exactly what do you BELIEVE is a professional way to design a bike frame and fork? Do you think that after 160 years they haven't tried all of the combinations and know what works and what doesn't? ALL of the famous builders such as Ugo DeRosa did not change any design process. They merely fit the bike to the riders.

A friend just bought custom Tommassinis for him and his wife. After carefully measuring him he was slightly between regular sizes and they are in the process of building that. But his wife measured out to perfectly fit a standard size and so that is what she is getting.

There is nothing whatsoever new under the two wheeled sun.

[John B.]

On Sun, 01 Jan 2017 08:09:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

In round numbers Titanium has about 1/2 the weight of 4130 or 40 steel
and about 1/2 the strength.

>4. Non-painted Ti-frames look very cool. Not a concern for me but for
>others.

So does stainless and I suspect it is much cheaper.

>5. Frame mods are feasible because you can weld to it.
>

Yes. BUT, welding titanium is not something that can be done by the
corner welding shop.

When I qualified on Titanium we welded it in an inert atmosphere box
but a friend who worked at the depot told me that he welded it with
back purging and very high argon flow to the torch.

>6. There are hardly any steel frames offered although that might change
>soon. Carbon is something I wish not to ride on harsh turf. So I am
>riding aluminum now. It's ok but one major rock hit at the wrong spot
>can ruin the day. I get lots of rock hits on trails out here.

--

cheers,

John B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

economics from an electrical engineer..

[John B.]

On Sun, 01 Jan 2017 12:21:15 -0600, Tim McNamara
<tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 09:48:27 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>wrote:
>>
>> Probably. It's the same almost everywhere. I design electronics and
>> every time a client transfers production to Asia the cost drops to
>> half or less. Including materials and all. The quality is usually
>> superb (I often get to check that). Overcoming such a large difference
>> is going to be a tall order. The cost of doing business in the US is
>> too high. How much that (hopefully) improves with the new
>> administration remains to be seen.
>
>Well, if Trump can make American workers accept $5.00/hour labor rates
>with no health insurance, retirement benefits, paid time off, etc., then
>maybe the cost of doing business in America will improve to the level of
>China for the supply siders. Maybe we can order a lot of big cardboard
>boxes from China for our workforce to live in.

The minimum monthly wage in Shanghai, in 2016, was 1895 yuan, or about
US$ 273. I am not sure of how many holidays China has but assuming 2
weeks of holidays annually than there are about 4.6 weeks/month and if
they work as few as 8 hours a day than the hourly salary is about US$
1.00/hour.

>It is interestng to note that productivity and wages in the US increased
>very closely together in post-war America from 1947-1970, which grew
>the middle class dramatically, then began to decouple as automation and
>information technology (and foreign competition) began to impact wages.
>Productivity per capita has continued to grow while wages have been
>basically flat (corrected for inflation) for over 45 years (especially
>from 1992 on). The difference in value between productivity and wages
>has been diverted to Wall Street, CEOs, etc., and away from workers. My
>parents' generation (becoming adults between 1945-1955) resided in the
>sweet spot for income growth and being able to retire. Many in my
>generation (born 1959) and later will be post-peak Americans and will
>not share in that properity as well as the preceeding generation, thanks
>to wrong-headed conservatism ruling the political discourse since 1980.
>Regulatory, fiscal, monetary and tax policies now transfer hundreds of
>billions of dollars from the pockets of the middle class into the
>pockets of the wealthy. Good for you if you're one of the latter, not
>so good for you if you're anyone else.

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 1 Jan 2017 13:25:02 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
wrote:

>On 12/31/2016 10:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 06:55:21 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
>> wrote:
>>> ,,,,
>>> Composites are a bunch of long interleaved fibers, with some plastic
>>> sticking them together. Once you get a crack in one spot, the
>>> interleaved fibers are broken in half right there and there's no way to
>>> make it back the way it was before it broke.
>>
>> You know not of what you speak. See West Systems site or fibreglast,
>> or any other composite site. They all provide information on repairing
>> composite structures.
>
>No, you don't.
>
>High-performance composite parts derive their strength from the length
>and arrangement of fibers, not the plastic. They are intended to have
>very particular bending/stress distribution characteristics. Once they
>get structural damage, there's no way to restore them to the way they
>were before they broke.

You are assuming that the fibers must run from one end of the
structure to the other and ignoring that the fibers are glued
together. A rule of thumb is that with a 6 times overlap and equal
number of layers of fibers the tensile strength is the same as the
original.

>What these frame-repair places do is slather more CF and plastic around
>the outside. But around ANY repair they make, there is a boundary of
>plastic ONLY, with no fibers crossing it..... That's like someone
>getting a crack in a steel butted-tube frame and welding split gas pipe
>around the broken area, and then claiming "it's fixed because there's
>metal holding it all together".
>...That may *work*, but it's not like it was before.

You seem to invent conditions that I, for one, have never seen. I have
never seen a steel frame repaired by sleeving it. Why would one do
what? After all it is less work to replace the tube.

I can't speak for what you and yours do to repair a frame but the chap
I know, in Singapore, doesn't do it that way. He makes a proper repair
by first removing the damaged section and than tapering the cut ends
for 6, or more times the thickness of the damaged tube and than
laminates in cloth to match the original thickness, than fills and
sands smooth and repaints. As he says, none of his repaired frames
have never broken.

>
>And is that not the reason one buys a high-cost CF frame in the first
>place? To get the light weight and riding performance it was engineered for?

Nope. The cost of a carbon frame is basically, once the mold is paid
for, the cost of the material and labour, which is why the Chinese can
build such cheap frames. their cost of doing business is so extremely
low.

>Nobody fixes composite airplane propellers if you manage get a crack at
>a blade ROOT or the hub. Tip damage and edge chips are cosmetic damage,
>not structural damage.

>Nobody fixes Corvette leaf springs (tho quite a few people occasionally
>ruin them with their exhaust cut-outs).

Well, to be perfectly honest I don't believe anyone repairs springs,
in the sense of fixing one that is broken. So your argument singling
out plastic springs is rather silly.

>There is reasons for these things.
>
>The entire CF bike frame repair industry is capitalizing on owners who
>are too cheap to toss a ruined frame, and aren't quite as educated
>cyclists as they think they are.

Well, they may be true, but there seem to be quite a number of carbon
frame repair businesses so I can only assume that the carbon frame
tribe is a bunch of cheapskates.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2017 09:13:28 +0700, John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz>
wrote:

>On Sun, 1 Jan 2017 13:25:02 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 12/31/2016 10:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 06:55:21 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> ,,,,
>>>> Composites are a bunch of long interleaved fibers, with some plastic
>>>> sticking them together. Once you get a crack in one spot, the
>>>> interleaved fibers are broken in half right there and there's no way to
>>>> make it back the way it was before it broke.
>>>
>>> You know not of what you speak. See West Systems site or fibreglast,
>>> or any other composite site. They all provide information on repairing
>>> composite structures.
>>
>>No, you don't.
>>
>>High-performance composite parts derive their strength from the length
>>and arrangement of fibers, not the plastic. They are intended to have
>>very particular bending/stress distribution characteristics. Once they
>>get structural damage, there's no way to restore them to the way they
>>were before they broke.
>
>You are assuming that the fibers must run from one end of the
>structure to the other and ignoring that the fibers are glued
>together. A rule of thumb is that with a 6 times overlap and equal
>number of layers of fibers the tensile strength is the same as the
>original.

Sorry, that should be a 12 times overlap.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

If the lightweight steel frameset uses the same components that is correct.

Lou

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

The funny thing is that CF is different. The base material has directional properties so I expect finite elements calculations to obtain optimal weight, stiffness and comfort values. Famous are the cheap Chinese Pinarello clones. The geometry is exactly the same (they use the same molds). You couldn't tell the difference and yet the measured values are completely different between a real Pinarello and a Chinese clone.

Lou

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

12x what ?

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

I red the former...how thick is a pinarrello top tube ?

The local repairman's ratio is amazing strength surface area/depth...wood not thought that possible..

I wuz thinking but ends n wrap with cloth n get on with it not repair to new

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

We see variation in chinese plastics structural qualities, not often but enough to write. Not experienced from Taiwan, Japan or US.

As with the melanine problem.

Prob a bottleneck.

[jbeattie]

They are all CF related because of the search parameter. Throw in "steel" and get things like this: https://www.cpsc.gov/recalls/2013/surly-bikes-recalls-bicycle-forks/

-- Jay Beattie

[jbeattie]

On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 11:12:32 AM UTC-8, Greg Berchin wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Jan 2017 09:23:31 -0800 (PST), cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >The carbon fiber bikes I've had ALL were much stiffer than my steel
> >bikes except for my old Look which had aluminum lugs.
>
> The Altamira is my first ever carbon frame, so I can only comment about
> it and cannot generalize. The BB on the Altamira feels stiffer than that
> of the steel Paramount, so the Altamira feels a bit more responsive when
> I really get on it in the initial strokes of a sprint. However,
> torsional stiffness, judged (subjectively) by how much the frame
> deflects when pushing down on the pedal while simultaneously pulling up
> on the handlebar on the same side, as in a hard climb, is a different
> matter. I expected the carbon frame, with its 60mm diameter down tube,
> to be like trying to twist granite. As it turns out, it doesn't feel
> significantly stiffer than the steel frame. For ride harshness, they're
> both about the same.

Most CF frames are stiff through the BB, and IMO, the real action is in the front end and stays -- much of it by design and some not. If you like having a stiff front-end (I do), then you have to shop for that bike, and even some bikes that are pretty stiff through the front end have limber components, like stems and bars. Try a more robust bar and stem and see if it makes a difference.

Another issue with modern CF bikes (not the Altimira so much) is the change to longer head tubes and "comfort geometry" which, again IMO, changes the ride feel and position when climbing out of the saddle. They are meant for seated climbing, which is probably a good thing because that is a lot more efficient.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

After having witnessed some crashes with someone riding that Ti-bike I
really believe Ti is stronger. As it pertains to MTB scenarios such as
sudden deceleration from 20mph to zero in 100 millisecond or the whole
bike smashing into a pile of rocks.

I never crashed on it but when I rode it the bike felt featherlight just
like a CF bike.

>> 4. Non-painted Ti-frames look very cool. Not a concern for me but for
>> others.
>
> So does stainless and I suspect it is much cheaper.
>
>> 5. Frame mods are feasible because you can weld to it.
>>
> Yes. BUT, welding titanium is not something that can be done by the
> corner welding shop.
>

True. But supposedly not as tricky as welding something to paperthin
hydro-formed aluminum tubing.

> When I qualified on Titanium we welded it in an inert atmosphere box
> but a friend who worked at the depot told me that he welded it with
> back purging and very high argon flow to the torch.
>

Doing such stuff with regular means requires skills and probably real
talent. I remember a factory in the 70's where difficult aluminum welds
could only be performed by one guy. He was getting up there in age and
that had the bosses very concerned.

[...]

[cycl...@gmail.com]

If I were you I wouldn't talk about getting up there in age and we're all concerned as well. Except for Frank of course.

[Joerg]

On 2017-01-01 16:17, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 1, 2017 at 10:21:21 AM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 09:48:27 -0800, Joerg
>> <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Probably. It's the same almost everywhere. I design electronics
>>> and every time a client transfers production to Asia the cost
>>> drops to half or less. Including materials and all. The quality
>>> is usually superb (I often get to check that). Overcoming such a
>>> large difference is going to be a tall order. The cost of doing
>>> business in the US is too high. How much that (hopefully)
>>> improves with the new administration remains to be seen.
>>
>> Well, if Trump can make American workers accept $5.00/hour labor
>> rates with no health insurance, retirement benefits, paid time off,
>> etc., then maybe the cost of doing business in America will improve
>> to the level of China for the supply siders. Maybe we can order a
>> lot of big cardboard boxes from China for our workforce to live
>> in.
>>

We have one of the highest corporate tax rates among industrialized
countries. That is a fundamental flaw and Trump correctly identified
that as such. It erodes mid-size company work places. Big ones do their
international shenanigans to dodge it, small ones can't.

>> It is interestng to note that productivity and wages in the US
>> increased very closely together in post-war America from 1947-1970,
>> which grew the middle class dramatically, then began to decouple as
>> automation and information technology (and foreign competition)
>> began to impact wages. Productivity per capita has continued to
>> grow while wages have been basically flat (corrected for inflation)
>> for over 45 years (especially from 1992 on).

As a highly developed country we must come to grips with the fact that
jobs with a lower required education level gradually vanish, mainly
because developing countries with lower cost of living work up their
skill levels. There is nothing that can stop that. People must strive to
achieve skills that makes them suitable for work with higher value addition.


>> ... The difference in

>> value between productivity and wages has been diverted to Wall
>> Street, CEOs, etc., and away from workers. My parents' generation
>> (becoming adults between 1945-1955) resided in the sweet spot for
>> income growth and being able to retire. Many in my generation (born
>> 1959) and later will be post-peak Americans and will not share in
>> that properity as well as the preceeding generation, thanks to
>> wrong-headed conservatism ruling the political discourse since
>> 1980.

It's got almost nothing to do with conservatives. On the contrary, it's
mostly job killer legislation by the other side that really kills middle
class jobs and lifestyles. Obamacare is a classic example.


>> ... Regulatory, fiscal, monetary and tax policies now transfer

>> hundreds of billions of dollars from the pockets of the middle
>> class into the pockets of the wealthy. Good for you if you're one
>> of the latter, not so good for you if you're anyone else.
>
> Since I'm an EE and embedded systems designer and programmer I have
> to ask some questions: How can the price of electronics be reduced to
> 50% when the items that compose the majority of the price are
> American integrated circuits? Most circuit boards are not micro-sized
> and production is automated since things are too small to see with
> anything but a microscope.
>

I am also an electronics engineer and occasionally I design consumer
electronics or something close. Lately more and more ICs from Asian
companies are used. For example, while a PWM controller IC (for flyback
switchers and stuff) for 20c might seem cheap that is too much for
consumer gear. If you select an Asian IC with similar functionality it
can be had for around 10c. It adds up.

Then there is production. One client of mine switched from domestic to
China and that dropped the cost in half. BOM, PCB fab, assembly,
testing, the whole nine yards.

> Do you see something wrong with wages achieving a plateau?

Unless the skill levels rise it is inevitable.


> ... The only

> reason you would expect it to go up is either a shortage of workers
> who increased competition for their labor or the case which did occur
> - H1B workers POURING into this country forcing top wages in this
> country down on the average.
>

H1B could be fixed very simply. I hope Trump finally understands how.
Nobody else on the hill gets it. Or maybe doesn't want to.

> With the destruction of the tariffs the ASSEMBLY taken overseas
> reduced the cost of assembly usually via a phoney exchange rate.
>

It's real cost of living differences, not exchange rates. Remember when
India was where many electronics design and software jobs went? Lunch
there cost less than $1 including beverage. In the US it was $6 or more.
In the Bay Area more like $10. An engineer there making 1/3 of the US
wage could live high on the hog.

> None of this should ever have occurred and you will notice that the
> destruction of the middle classes has NOT occurred under Republicans
> but under Democrats. It's pretty disgusting that union jobs
> disappeared which union leaders were getting rich supporting the very
> people that were getting rid of their members jobs.
>

Unions have largely destroyed the middle class. In part that also had
self-destructing effects. However, there are myriad more reasons such as
taxation, tort law, stupid agency behavior, over-regulation and so on.

[Joerg]

On 2017-01-02 12:11, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 11:55:43 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-01-01 17:18, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>> When I qualified on Titanium we welded it in an inert atmosphere
>>> box but a friend who worked at the depot told me that he welded
>>> it with back purging and very high argon flow to the torch.
>>>
>>
>> Doing such stuff with regular means requires skills and probably
>> real talent. I remember a factory in the 70's where difficult
>> aluminum welds could only be performed by one guy. He was getting
>> up there in age and that had the bosses very concerned.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>
>> -- Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> If I were you I wouldn't talk about getting up there in age and we're
> all concerned as well. Except for Frank of course.
>

What age?

<looks in mirror>

Oh! That!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1v4BYV-YvA

--
Happy New Year, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Ti has one property that can't be met by one or more other common frame materials and that is that it doesn't need to be painted. Painting a Ti frame is missing the point (Colnago titanio for instance).
Ti frames is a declining niche market for:
- bike nerds that like the appeal of unpainted brushed or glass pearl blasted Ti,
- people that have money to spare,
- believe that Ti has magic riding qualities.

All good reason's as far as I'm concerned.

Lou

[James]

Impressive. Almost 2kg lighter than mine, at 8.4kg with pedals. I
think the Enve fork might be full CFRP? Mine is CFRP blades and Al
steerer (Eastern EC70). There must be small weight savings on most
parts. Mind you, my bicycle didn't cost anywhere near $11,000USD. Less
than 1/3 that I think.

--
JS

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 12:31:48 PM UTC-8, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Ti has one property that can't be met by one or more other common frame materials and that is that it doesn't need to be painted. Painting a Ti frame is missing the point (Colnago titanio for instance).
> Ti frames is a declining niche market for:
> - bike nerds that like the appeal of unpainted brushed or glass pearl blasted Ti,
> - people that have money to spare,
> - believe that Ti has magic riding qualities.
>
> All good reason's as far as I'm concerned.

Personally I can't stand to see bar metal.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Jay thanks for the link

[John B.]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2017 11:55:39 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Well, if it is stronger than steel then it is heavier than steel. The
physical properties of a material don't change just because it is a
bicycle :-)

>
>I never crashed on it but when I rode it the bike felt featherlight just
>like a CF bike.
>
>
>>> 4. Non-painted Ti-frames look very cool. Not a concern for me but for
>>> others.
>>
>> So does stainless and I suspect it is much cheaper.
>>
>>> 5. Frame mods are feasible because you can weld to it.
>>>
>> Yes. BUT, welding titanium is not something that can be done by the
>> corner welding shop.
>>
>
>True. But supposedly not as tricky as welding something to paperthin
>hydro-formed aluminum tubing.

The thinnest aluminum tubes that Columbus sells are 1.2MM at the
butted ends. This is not difficult for a competent welder :-)

>
>> When I qualified on Titanium we welded it in an inert atmosphere box
>> but a friend who worked at the depot told me that he welded it with
>> back purging and very high argon flow to the torch.
>>
>
>Doing such stuff with regular means requires skills and probably real
>talent. I remember a factory in the 70's where difficult aluminum welds
>could only be performed by one guy. He was getting up there in age and
>that had the bosses very concerned.
>
>[...]

That seems strange, although I don't dispute it, as the Air Force and
(I assume) every aircraft maker, has multitudes that can weld
aluminum. It isn't even particularly difficult, assuming the use of
modern TIG welder but I will say that the older oxy-acet gas torch
method was a bit tricky :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 09:21:43 +1100, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

If you're interested there is a guy posting on the Web that rides a
6.6 kg. aluminum frame bicycle. His site is interesting as he weighs
every part that is used, even the rim tape.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Phil Lee]

DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com> considered Sat, 31 Dec 2016 06:55:21
-0600 the perfect time to write:

>On 12/31/2016 12:02 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 21:35:34 -0600, DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> For a while there it seemed like we were seeing fairly-regular stories
>>> of road bike carbon fork failures, even among amateurs not trying to
>>> break them. This was around the time the companies making them stopped
>>> using steel steerer tubes and went to full-carbon construction, IIRC.
>>>
>>> 'Course, steel probably went through this phase also. But it was 100-odd
>>> years ago....
>>>
>>> I still get flack online for suggesting that CF bike parts are
>>> disposable, and shouldn't be repaired.
>>>
>>> Others insist it's okay since Calfee and a couple other places will take
>>> your money and put more plastic goop on it for you, but no other
>>> endeavor elsewhere does that (planes, cars, boats, other sporting goods
>>> equipment, ect).
>>
>> Not true. I have a good friend who's business is essentially repairing
>> and rebuilding composite boats, the EAA has rather extensive
>> instructions for repairing damaged composite home built aircraft and
>> Chevrolet Corvette's have been made with composite bodies since the
>> early 50's and I doubt that the owners threw them away when they
>> dinged a fender.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Yea but boat hulls, aircraft skin and car body panels aren't
>highly-stressed structural parts like a bicycle frame is.
>
Not true - most are now monocoque construction, so the whole body is
load bearing.
And you can do a BETTER job of repairing composites, as you don't need
heat (which changes the characteristics of most metals).

>They make composite aircraft propellers, does anybody repair them if
>they suffer structural damage?

Yes.
And helicopter rotor blades, for that matter.
Of course, as both are inspected before every flight (at least by any
pilot who is competent), you can catch any damage early.
>
>The Corvette uses a fiberglass leaf spring in the rear, does anybody
>repair them if they crack or split?

False comparison. Leaf springs made from steel are replaced, not
repaired, in exactly the same way.

>
>Composites are a bunch of long interleaved fibers, with some plastic
>sticking them together. Once you get a crack in one spot, the
>interleaved fibers are broken in half right there and there's no way to
>make it back the way it was before it broke.

Not once it's failed catastrophically, but even then (just like a
broken pipe), you can sleeve it.
And on components that are regularly inspected, you can catch any
crack before it fails completely, grind out the cracked bit and
feather in a repair, which is as strong as the original if done
properly.
>
>What do these CF bicycle frame companies have to say about trying to
>repair a cracked frame?....I would bet they'd say it's not a wise idea.
>....If it was, they would offer that service, right?
>Because, you know, they could do it better than anyone else, right?...
>
They can make more profit out of selling you a new one, so they'll
always recommend that, particularly if the repair is visible (it's bad
for business having visibly repaired frames out there with your name
on them).
>
Note that I personally prefer steel, but the arguments you are using
against composites are incorrect.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/2/2017 7:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> That seems strange, although I don't dispute it, as the Air Force and
> (I assume) every aircraft maker, has multitudes that can weld
> aluminum. It isn't even particularly difficult, assuming the use of
> modern TIG welder but I will say that the older oxy-acet gas torch
> method was a bit tricky :-)

I never got close to being able to acetylene weld aluminum. I have had
moderate success with low temperature aluminum "brazing" rod - some
alloy that melts well below 900 degrees Fahrenheit. But I never used it
for anything critical, just brackets and the like.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[James]

On 03/01/17 07:31, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Ti has one property that can't be met by one or more other common
> frame materials and that is that it doesn't need to be painted.

Does CFRP need painting?

--
JS

[AMuzi]

For various values of 'paint', yes.

Something (usually clear) to keep the top layers from
fraying/abrasion and as I understand it UV as well.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

1 April, 1971

working outside on SW Florida, all tools are placed in shade. Including my head.

canoe n kayak hulls with a hugely larger surface area often seen in competition as naked yellow Kevlar, naked CF but not touring unless ura fanatic.

The Savage hulls are unpainted and adverted as unpainted ...see thru ...see thru your credit card statement.

My Solstice Titan Kevlar expedition is gelcoated on outside but off course naked Kevlar inside. Gelcoat is uh sacrificial. I hesitate maligning the Titan's gelcoat.

https://www.google.com/#q=uv+radiation+effects+on+plastics

[Joerg]

That is not necessarily true. Metals can be treated in various ways that
make the either stronger or more pliable without changing the weight.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11837-011-0035-0

At least whoever made the BikesDirect frames must have done a very good
job in that respect because that Ti-MTB never suffered the usual dings
and you can hardly see scratches.

> ... The

> physical properties of a material don't change just because it is a
> bicycle :-)
>

No, but because they use the right kind of material and properly treated.

>>
>> I never crashed on it but when I rode it the bike felt featherlight just
>> like a CF bike.
>>
>>
>>>> 4. Non-painted Ti-frames look very cool. Not a concern for me but for
>>>> others.
>>>
>>> So does stainless and I suspect it is much cheaper.
>>>
>>>> 5. Frame mods are feasible because you can weld to it.
>>>>
>>> Yes. BUT, welding titanium is not something that can be done by the
>>> corner welding shop.
>>>
>>
>> True. But supposedly not as tricky as welding something to paperthin
>> hydro-formed aluminum tubing.
>
> The thinnest aluminum tubes that Columbus sells are 1.2MM at the
> butted ends. This is not difficult for a competent welder :-)
>

No problem at the ends but more towards the middle they can be thinner.
Easy to burn through if you need to do a frame mod there. Bike frames
are notoriously lacking when it comes to utility riding. In the olden
days I used my electric welding transformer to shore things up.

>>
>>> When I qualified on Titanium we welded it in an inert atmosphere box
>>> but a friend who worked at the depot told me that he welded it with
>>> back purging and very high argon flow to the torch.
>>>
>>
>> Doing such stuff with regular means requires skills and probably real
>> talent. I remember a factory in the 70's where difficult aluminum welds
>> could only be performed by one guy. He was getting up there in age and
>> that had the bosses very concerned.
>>
>> [...]
>
> That seems strange, although I don't dispute it, as the Air Force and
> (I assume) every aircraft maker, has multitudes that can weld
> aluminum. It isn't even particularly difficult, assuming the use of
> modern TIG welder but I will say that the older oxy-acet gas torch
> method was a bit tricky :-)
>

This was in the 70's and the company didn't have a virtually unlimited
budget funded by the taxpayer.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 5:57:01 PM UTC-8, Phil Lee wrote:
>
> Not true - most are now monocoque construction, so the whole body is
> load bearing.

That's not a good description of "monocoque" which means "of one piece". Boats ARE monocoque but are built VERY heavily. Aircraft as a rule are NOT monocoque since they have framework over which the skin is placed. This really doesn't qualify as monocoque because the majority of the loads are carried by the framework. I do not know about modern military fighters but will ask my step-son next time I see him.

> And you can do a BETTER job of repairing composites, as you don't need
> heat (which changes the characteristics of most metals).

As others have noted - you CANNOT "repair" a bicycle frame and expect it to be of the same weight and strength. The fiber length spreads the loads over the entire frame. Repairs shorten the runs of the fibers.

> Yes.
> And helicopter rotor blades, for that matter.

Perhaps this is the source of the helicopter blades that have been failing?

> Of course, as both are inspected before every flight (at least by any
> pilot who is competent), you can catch any damage early.

Carbon fiber fails AT THE THREADS and not the layup. That occurs because of the failed threads. So there is nothing to see unless it is close to total failure when you inspect it.

> False comparison. Leaf springs made from steel are replaced, not
> repaired, in exactly the same way.

All together now - the Corvette leaf springs are composite.

You appear to have a far different view of composites than an engineer. Composites to be properly stressed and retain their entire strength have to be built from the beginning as monocoque items. NO repair of any kind can retain the original strength and weight. And if you increase the weight you focus stress on the edges of the repairs.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Originally it was torch welded in a surrounding atmosphere if inert gas and was called "inert gas welding". In order to achieve a reliable weld you had to be really good and these welders were frw and far between.

[Greg Berchin]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 09:03:31 -0800 (PST), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>
wrote:

>Most CF frames are stiff through the BB, and IMO, the real action is in
>the front end and stays -- much of it by design and some not. If you
>like having a stiff front-end (I do), then you have to shop for that
>bike, and even some bikes that are pretty stiff through the front end
>have limber components, like stems and bars. Try a more robust bar and
>stem and see if it makes a difference.

In this case it's the frame. There is a slightly unnerving headshake
right around 30 mph (yes, I can still hit those speeds despite my ever
advancing age) during which I can actually see the head tube twisting
out of the plane of the seat tube. Of course, this is a large frame and
I am a heavy rider, so I'm probably operating near the design limit.

>Another issue with modern CF bikes (not the Altimira so much) is the
>change to longer head tubes and "comfort geometry" which, again IMO,
>changes the ride feel and position when climbing out of the saddle. They
>are meant for seated climbing, which is probably a good thing because
>that is a lot more efficient.

That is precisely the reason that I chose the Altamira. Most modern
frames have 72° seat tube angles, the Altamira has 73.5°. On a bike with
80+ cm saddle-to-spindle distance, that makes a difference of more than
2 cm. I have long legs but a short torso, and I also like the more
aggressive "lean forward" position.