Knackered bottom bracket.

[Ian Field]

Among the bikes I've stripped for salvage recently; there seems to be an
increasing number with totally wrecked bottom bracket bearings.

Can't ever remember wrecking one myself - even a very old rusty Raleigh.

Is quality going downhill just lately?

[AMuzi]

Older (pre-1980s), products which have had no maintenance
since new are just about at life's end. Lubricants dessicate
and fail, bearings and bearing surfaces shortly after.

Just about anything except very top-end models after roughly
1990 were mostly built without significant shop prep as
labor costs rose. Most shops quit full all-parts-off new
bicycle prep and the factory setup was marginal at best.
There are exceptions but that's the general run of it.

That said, regular cleaning and lubrication can keep even
midrange hub and BB bearings running for a cyclist's
lifetime. We see Record hubs regularly (mailed in for new
spokes and rims) which are running well after 40~50 years
with annual or 2-year bearing service.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

grease evaporates...esp older greases....grease tech moves on very competitive field.

moist often seen in headsets. BB friction is, I speculate, largly consumed b chain friction...chain friction is largely ignored as a nuisance.

a very small portion of grease surviving evap continues lubing the mechanism with increasing friction....friction increase squares. hahahhaha squares....

rarely ridden Record hubs are famous for lasting forever as are Pyramid Hubs.

Andy, are hubs races CNC'd from DT et al ? gotta list ? is there a time eg 20110-2012 when CNC became common among a certain price range ?

I dahn no if CNC wokd have a major effect on bicycle components n now doubt that existence in bike components.

[Ian Field]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:no89ig$i6m$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 8/7/2016 3:59 PM, Ian Field wrote:
>> Among the bikes I've stripped for salvage recently; there
>> seems to be an increasing number with totally wrecked bottom
>> bracket bearings.
>>
>> Can't ever remember wrecking one myself - even a very old
>> rusty Raleigh.
>>
>> Is quality going downhill just lately?
>
> Older (pre-1980s), products which have had no maintenance since new are
> just about at life's end. Lubricants dessicate and fail, bearings and
> bearing surfaces shortly after.
>
> Just about anything except very top-end models after roughly 1990 were
> mostly built without significant shop prep as labor costs rose. Most shops
> quit full all-parts-off new bicycle prep and the factory setup was
> marginal at best. There are exceptions but that's the general run of it.
>
> That said, regular cleaning and lubrication can keep even midrange hub and
> BB bearings running for a cyclist's lifetime.

The oldest Raleigh had an oiling thing on the bottom bracket, the oiler had
probably never been used.

The bearing was a little rough, so I pumped in a mixture of PTFE and moly
grease. It lasted until I passed the bike on to someone who wanted to
restore it.

Currently; I have a crunchy jamming pedal, its not the same side as the
kerb. They were cheapies from the bicycle section in a supermarket - so I'll
just leave it till it gets enough PITA to bother replacing them.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

eyeyehahahha.......


a grease cup ?


http://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1087&bih=546&q=raligh+bicycle+bottom+bracket+oiler&oq=raligh+bicycle+bottom+bracket+oiler&gs_l=img.3...1791.14478.0.15586.35.15.0.20.0.0.362.1740.8j3j0j2.13.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..2.12.1639...0j0i5i10i30j0i10i24.6UlE2sLHdf8#tbm=isch&q=raleigh+bicycle+bottom+bracket+oiler

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I've taken apart 10 or 12 year old bike bottom brackets and the grease is black with dirt and wear from rollers running on bare metal.

With maintenance old fashioned open roller bottom brackets will last forever.

The new enclosed BB's will required replacement at regular intervals but what that is I haven't discovered yet.

[Ian Field]

"DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH" <avag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:96eb7107-8637-4ae9...@googlegroups.com...

> eyeyehahahha.......
>
>
> a grease cup ?
>
>
> http://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1087&bih=546&q=raligh+bicycle+bottom+bracket+oiler&oq=raligh+bicycle+bottom+bracket+oiler&gs_l=img.3...1791.14478.0.15586.35.15.0.20.0.0.362.1740.8j3j0j2.13.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..2.12.1639...0j0i5i10i30j0i10i24.6UlE2sLHdf8#tbm=isch&q=raleigh+bicycle+bottom+bracket+oiler

I broke the little flap off - the thread is near enough to the plastic
screws for a car number plate, so I used a large syringe to pump the grease
in, then sealed it with a number plate screw.

[Ian Field]

<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f81a8d5a-4e60-4d03...@googlegroups.com...

Most of the real old bikes I ended up with probably never got any oil since
leaving the shop.

Very often rusty, but advanced lubricants hide many sins. Once or twice I've
had to adjust bottom bracket bearing on old bikes - but never had to repair
a broken one.

A relative had a complete BB bearing failure on a very recent bike, the
spacer cage had been crushed and the shop didn't have any, so I filled the
cup with balls. AFAIK: My brother sold the bike when the relative passed on.

It was a cheapie mail order bike that needed some bearing or other sorting
out every several months.

Obviously I don't know the history of bikes I salvage for parts - but so
many had wrecked BB bearings recently, that I couldn't help but notice.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

SEARCH: RALEIGH BICYCLE BOTTOM BRACKET GREASE CUPS
Google…images ..shopping … all
https://www.google.com/search?q=RALEIGH+BICYCLE+BOTTOM+BRACKET+GREASE+CUPS&biw=1268&bih=638&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj449jc_LTOAhWBcyYKHd0RCYQQ_AUIcygB
that grease cup was priceless.
Shimano replacements are inexpensive n durable well worth the coupla bucks…same for headsets.
My first serious bike is a carbon steel 10 speed with deluxe CR.equippe.
All modded out to 21C now as the last scavenged parts supply either ranout or the antique alloy cracked on the stated date.
With the 21C equipment the old frame runs on without hassle.

......


retired owners of the salvaged bikes I had have passed on....the aluminum n steel off to China.

[John B.]

If you do that again the old rule of thumb was always one ball less
than full. You put balls in the outer race, shoulder to shoulder, as
it were until it is full. Then take out one ball and assemble the
bearing.

>It was a cheapie mail order bike that needed some bearing or other sorting
>out every several months.
>
>Obviously I don't know the history of bikes I salvage for parts - but so
>many had wrecked BB bearings recently, that I couldn't help but notice.

--
cheers,

John B.

[Andrew Chaplin]

cycl...@gmail.com wrote in
news:f81a8d5a-4e60-4d03...@googlegroups.com:

Campagnolo's warranty of its sealed BBs is three years against
manufacturer's defects, so I would take it from there that mine could fail
any time thereafter.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message
news:ch2lqbpni3v2spnfg...@4ax.com...

Utter bollox as I'd expect from you.

Leaving one ball out creates a gap that the cone settles into - then the
cone will be resting the entire force on the 2 balls that are either side of
the gap.

The cup is always designed so too many balls won't fit, and too few will be
obvious.

[David Scheidt]

Ian Field <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:


:"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message

Take your meds, dude. He's right.



--
sig 91

[Ian Field]

"David Scheidt" <dsch...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:nog1k1$79r$1...@reader2.panix.com...

No he's not - the right number of balls leaves a gap that's way too small to
take one too many.

If you take one out as he says - you'll end up with a couple of cracked ball
bearings that break up and ruin the others.

He's a fuckwit - and I despair of anyone who can't recognise that!

[Sir Ridesalot]

Not that you'll believe it but for the sake of others; full minus one ball bearing in any bicycle cup and cone system is NORMAL. A Google Search gets the reasoning behind the normal full minus one ball bearing that any Competent bicycle mechanic uses.

"In practice most bearings spread a little as you tighten the cones so "full" when you're adding balls is not actually full in use. You can usually see this - when you're adding balls they generally sit in against the axle, then when you add the cone it spreads the bearings slightly. So filling the race is almost always fine.

Don't be tempted to add one more to fill in the extra space created when you tighten it up, this is exactly the situation the "full less one" guide is trying to avoid. That "full plus one" means all the load is on one bearing (and one section of the cone), plus the bearings are really grnding against each other as the wheel rotates. If you're lucky the wheel won't rotate in this situation, but if you're unlucky you're wreck the cups and have to replace the cups (or hub, if the cups are not replaceable)."

Cheerio

[AMuzi]

For any given standard cup-and-cone design, the correct
count minus one will ride at the exact same diameter and run
just fine (albeit with faster wear from fewer wear points).

Add one more than correct count and balls contact sections
of the cup and/or cone the designer never intended. The
system will chew itself up in short order. Hence the general
rule of thumb to run short when in doubt.

[AMuzi]

If you have a point it escaped me even on second reading.

I see plenty of examples both ways and one short works just
fine. One over is a mess of chewed edges and damaged balls.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

WUHWUHWUHW WUH....

YASEE, the assembly in one too many may look as if there's a gap left over but not when the assembly is tightened down to turn.

the minus one off full in correct form LEAVES A GAP GAP begging for...

one mo ball

but that GAPEING GAP DIVIDED BY 8 balls or 7 ...you either get an 8 ball or an odd lucky ball I forget which, is a small gap between balls...

check gaps on a retainer set. fairly wide, no ?

this assumes yawl have the correct size balls.

This 2 will become obvious if incorrect.

long live the cartridge bearing.

[John B.]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:45:15 +0100, "Ian Field"

Yup, Certainly!

Of course a great many others don't agree with you. For example:
http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/threadless-headset-service#article-section-7

But of course, the fact that probably the largest maker of bike tools
in the U.S. doesn't agree with you is no cause for alarm.

Nope, Straight Ahead! Full Speed! And just like the Titanic. Crash!

One can only speculate whether you represent Modern America? Not
overly bright, poorly educated and too stupid to research the question
before you pop up with the wrong answer.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Ian Field]

"DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH" <avag...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:bacda051-ec2a-4fc9...@googlegroups.com...

> WUHWUHWUHW WUH....
>
> YASEE, the assembly in one too many may look as if there's a gap left over
> but not when the assembly is tightened down to turn.
>
> the minus one off full in correct form LEAVES A GAP GAP begging for...
>
> one mo ball

Only ever had that problem on the first bearing I ever reassembled - the
balls stuck in the smear of grease in the cup looked like they fit. When I
tried to adjust the cone - it became very obvious that they didn't.

[Ian Field]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message

news:nog7o0$su$1...@dont-email.me...

You must be working with some very badly designed bearings!

All the ones I've seen had a very small clearance when correctly filled.
Leaving a ball out creates a gap that the cone deflects into under load -
then; only 2 ball bearings are carrying all of the load.

It really is that simple!!!

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message

news:i9nnqbl887fgc7vdt...@4ax.com...

Oranges to onions - AFAICS: that only describes the caged variety of
cone/cup bearing - leaving a ball out of that would still fail in short
order.

And I'm really puzzled how someone even as thick as you can get confused
about how many ball bearings to fit in a caged assembly!!!

The fact remains - if you leave a gap in a filled cup; the cone will deflect
into the gap and 2 ball bearings will carry the whole load.

It really is that simple!!!!!

[AMuzi]

It is simple, but the concept has escaped you.

Imagine a cup and cone system (such as a front hub) designed
for ten balls but with only nine balls installed. The balls
contact the calculated track centered on both cup and cone.
Now imagine eleven balls. They cannot contact the center
of the curves on cup and cone as one or more will be askew,
inherently.

[Ian Field]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message

news:noit2q$79o$1...@dont-email.me...

You must be working with some very badly designed bearings!!!

All I've ever seen have a very small clearance when correctly filled. If you
try to cram an extra ball in - it'll be blindingly obvious that the cone
doesn't sit right.

If you fill the cup, then take out one ball as John.B said - there will be a
gap that the cone deflects into under load.

That will impose said load on just 2 of all the ball bearings.

Still, if you just don't get it - its no surprise that you toddle along
behind a fuckwit like John.B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

ask the LBS for a retainer of your cone size n check the spacings ....if you owned a formula car a video is necessary.

[AMuzi]

Our loose-ball BB and hub bearings look something like this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/bgsect.jpg

In our applications, the curve on the cone and cup are
larger radius than the ball (which allows some tolerance for
misalignment and wear) but the principle is the same in that
there is a correct load diameter for the balls.

Running short count, such as 9 in place of ten, will run
acceptably well at that same diameter[1]. Wear will be
proportionally faster but it will not immediately and
catastrophically fail. Over count, such as eleven in place
of ten, will fail quickly and dramatically as the balls
cannot all run at the correct diameter on the actual bearing
surfaces.

[1] that's for 'short one ball'. Ridiculous examples such as
half-count would suffer severe misalignment once all the
balls go to one side, which they will.

[Ian Field]

"DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH" <avag...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:6d66f516-963d-440e...@googlegroups.com...

If I was a bearing designer - I probably wouldn't have suggested using
retainer/spacers. The higher failure rate compared to filled cup bearings
speaks for itself.

Having said that - most 2-stroke conrod bearings are caged needle roller
bearings. But I think the load bearing properties of needle rollers are a
whole 'nother story.