Actual Technical Question: FD Braze-on versus Clamp

[jbeattie]

Dear f***wits, here is my question: you can buy a DT clamp that is a braze-on substitute and install a braze-on FD or you can buy a FD with a clamp built-in. Is one better than the other?

Question No. 2 (for those people who actually know anything), after installing the new 6700 FD (left) Ultegra lever (this is the old 10 speed group), it feels really stiff -- as did the prior lever. I'm wondering if this is because it is paired with an old FD from an earlier group. It also doesn't seem all that happy with a compact, but I don't think there is any such thing as a compact FD. My adjustment is good.

Please submit your papers, double spaced. Grammar will be graded.

-- Jay Beattie.

[avag...@gmail.com]

adjustable beats nit adjustable....at least until the adj. destrcuts.

well, nohining bikewise is REALLY STIIF

so our guess is take it to the plumber n ask for a redo.......


https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1522&bih=765&q=plum+tree&oq=plum+tree&gs_l=img.1.0.0l10.1155.2983.0.6169.9.8.0.1.1.0.166.1064.0j8.8.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.9.1066.3EBm3NQHGZo#imgrc=oznynNsnjxYElM%3A

[AMuzi]

BZ FD on a clamp vs. properly sized clamp FD = no difference
in performance. Aesthetics of a separate clamp bother some
riders, to which I say, 'don't look down'. Braze FD are
commonly sloppy due to tube flex, although again some riders
just think those look nice.

There are indeed compact fronts and also road/compact cage
designs. Sometimes it matters (46 outer), usually it doesn't
(50 outer).

IME stiff shifter feel is more usually related to cable
issues and the BB nylon guide than to the shifter itself.
Then again your ST6700 may just be sticky from warming a
stock room for a while. A prophylactic schpritz with your
favorite cheap spray lube may help and at any rate won't hurt.

One more thought- did you oil the FD pivots? Oil all of them
and move the changer several times. If black crud runs out
of the pivots, it should be smoother and snappier afterwards.

I dated an English professor for a while without noticeable
grammar osmosis. But she was a real piece of work so I ought
to get a grammar grade bonus just for the suffering.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[jbeattie]

D-!

What do you know? I mean really, what do you know? I'm outraged by your answer which entirely misses the point that there was a dead field mouse lodged in my shifter which -- quite obviously -- affected its performance. How could you miss that! I don't know why I bother posting to this group. Cancel my subscription! (Head explodes).

Actually, though, I did oil the pivot this morning and grease the cable guide, but I'm going to take another look at the guide. They are a constant issue on my other bikes. I'll also spray the lever, which I haven't done for fear that I would wash out the magic OE grease/oil.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/12/2016 11:41 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> Dear f***wits, here is my question: you can buy a DT clamp that is a braze-on substitute and install a braze-on FD or you can buy a FD with a clamp built-in. Is one better than the other?

Yes. But not by much.

(Note: Grammarians would say that should be one sentence, but I wrote it
for desired timing and impact. Yes, officer, I can show you my creative
license.)

> Question No. 2 (for those people who actually know anything), after installing the new 6700 FD (left) Ultegra lever (this is the old 10 speed group), it feels really stiff -- as did the prior lever. I'm wondering if this is because it is paired with an old FD from an earlier group. It also doesn't seem all that happy with a compact, but I don't think there is any such thing as a compact FD. My adjustment is good.

After my recent battle with a FD with a super-strong return spring, I
wonder how those spring stiffnesses compare between models. I'll note
that a (say) 10% increase in spring tension will cause a much greater
than 10% increase in lever force, due to the amplifying effects on
friction around each bend in the bottom bracket cable guide, the cable,
etc.

As Andrew says, it's easy to forget the bottom bracket cable guide, and
friction there can be a killer.

Of course, I'm assuming the stiffness you feel occurs when pulling the
cable to shift to a bigger chainring.

> Please submit your papers, double spaced. Grammar will be graded.

Damn. Forgot to double space.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[russell...@yahoo.com]

jbeattie wrote:
> here is my question: you can buy a DT clamp that is a braze-on substitute and install a braze-on FD or you can buy a FD with a clamp built-in. Is one better than the other?
>

> -- Jay Beattie.

On my latest bike builds I have gone with the braze-on front derailleur and separate clamp for bikes without built in front derailleur mount. This allows the option to switch the front derailleur between different frames with or without front derailleur mounts. And frames with different diameter seattubes that just require buying a cheap mount. Braze-on front derailleur wins for versatility. Clamp-on front derailleurs can only stay on that bike frame or another that is pretty much identical. Less versatile. Its rare I switch parts between bikes or frames. But a few years ago I bought a new frame and put all the parts from another bike onto it and got ride of the other frame. Braze-on front derailleur was easy to do this. And I have built up a few bikes by grabbing a front derailleur out of the spare parts boxes. Luckily the frames I was building matched the spare front derailleurs I had in the boxes. But braze-on front derailleurs can be made to work on every frame by buying a new cheap mount.

[avag...@gmail.com]

MUH MUH FUGRAMMIT MORK ZUGWALLADORK.........

FORM VARIOUS REASONS, none clear enough to reiterate, several times the FD has refused to work with its brother components. Including a drillout of the cage bolt insertion of an adjustable cage bolt.

clearly, a fixed FD would put you in the hole here."Like" what's fixed ? the headset ? I guess but on muh trekker the bar/stem gizmoid is adjustable everywhichway.

The OEM grease is when in sight excellent. When out of sight anything could lurk in there including the dead mouse. Standard practice is, for serious porpoises, disassemble lay out clean inspect lubricate reassemble.

I use the cheapo Wal CRC HD silicone spray after the cheapo Wal CRC electronics cleaner as a blowout stream device. But the grips could be soaked then blown out with air down at the garage.

is this necessary ? I dunno but the grips doahn work so...?

nukwold va gisellemanuolus

[Sir Ridesalot]

how does the shifter feel if the cable is NOT attached to the derailler but is still through the cable guides and held in one hand?

Are the housing ends square and the ferrules in good condition with no grooves or bulging in them?

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

"like' if a trip across the USA was planned n the equippe was new....a foolish approach but for example.....and the new junk worked gud then why not proceed.

here we have 20 interviews with riders going that route only to find a rubbing area, a piece overstressed caws on disass it was found in backwards or untroqued or loose or.....

but with stuff that doesn't feel right.....

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/12/2016 6:19 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
>
> how does the shifter feel if the cable is NOT attached to the derailler but is still through the cable guides and held in one hand?

A good question. Jay?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

the grip may malfunction only when cable connected to terminal pull...

[jbeattie]

That is a good question. I'll check tonight.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

If you are serious :-)

The height of the front derailer depends on the diameter of the large
chain ring. The braze-on derailer mount is fixed in place and has a
limited range of height adjustment. Thus if one were to change from a
52 T chain ring to a 44 T chain ring there may not (probably won't be)
sufficient range of adjustment. The clamp on is probably the most
logical choice.

It might be noted that Shimano made some front derailers that were a
brazed on model with a clamp ring that could be used in place of the
braze-on fitting.

I do use braze-ons on bikes that I've built or made major repairs to
but only after considerable forethought. Andrew says there is a slight
danger of the braze-on effecting the strength of the seat tube... but
they look so cool :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 13 May 2016 10:13:04 +0700, John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz>
wrote:

Re question #2. If you have exposed cables try pulling on the derailer
cable about halfway down the down tube on a number of bike. That
should give you a sense of how much tension is "normal".
--
cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

BASIC.....check parts as separate untis....

apart from the Chevy method...replace each individual part and bill...

......super method if yawl bought degradeable parts for the Shelf


ah XXXX the discomflabuator is belly up again......replace....works AAA

a collaree sneaks up here here the discomfla is inconveineinced by the flumarbax.

Flumarbax aare infamous for breaking discomflabulators

[avag...@gmail.com]

ssomewhere a wag worked out a humor for the subject...analysis can be finite in order of congruence.

part A breaking part B while A remains obscure produced great historic disasters tho I'm not coming up specifics beyond the square knot.....

eccentric and unseen joints moving freely when examined individually but jamming when pressured are primary malfunctins

[avag...@gmail.com]

transportation is a .......culprit

shipping

railroads

Peoria

aircraft

and now....the Hyperleak

http://goo.gl/k6phmr

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/17/science/climate-change-bird-red-knots.html?ribbon-ad-idx=4&rref=science&module=Ribbon&version=context&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Science&pgtype=article

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Can I shut my eyes and scream "NO MORE NO MORE"?

You are talking about a front derailleur and not a rear. The bolt-on braze-on was only designed for people that had a braze-on derailleur and didn't want to go through the trouble of getting a more appropriate one to fit their bike.

Is there any real difference between a clamp on and a clamp-on braze-on adapter? No. But there are additional bolts that can loosen or fail.

[avag...@gmail.com]

HI WE HERE AT CUSTOMER SERVISE CAN HELP

PLEASE WALK AROUND THE GROUNDS N MACE YOURSELF AT HOME

https://goo.gl/eLYDM2

[jbeattie]

Epilog. The shifter works fine without the FD attached, although it is fussy and catches sometimes without the return spring tension. Anyway, I had a need for a FD on another bike, so I got the group-specific FD for this shifter (6700) and threw it on last night, and it works great. I think the FD spring tension is a little lower than the older model. $29 over at Universal, which I thought was reasonable. I also got a replacement rim, which I threw over my shoulder for the ride home in the bicycle conga line that is Portland on a sunny day. I again confirmed that the super-duper center-piece cycletrack through south waterfront is the killing fields for cyclists -- and not just because of other cyclists. It's a door-zone cycle track with street car stops on the left, so you can get people crossing in front of you from the stop on the left, drivers stepping out on the right, parallel street car tracks, ordinary pedestrian traffic, turning cars -- dogs and cats, living together! I'd like to punch the maroon who came up with that facility.

-- Jay Beattie.
-- Jay Beattie.



-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/13/2016 4:28 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On

>>>>> I again confirmed that the super-duper center-piece cycletrack through south waterfront is the killing fields for cyclists -- and not just because of other cyclists. It's a door-zone cycle track with street car stops on the left, so you can get people crossing in front of you from the stop on the left, drivers stepping out on the right, parallel street car tracks, ordinary pedestrian traffic, turning cars -- dogs and cats, living together! I'd like to punch the maroon who came up with that facility.
>

Heretic! Everyone knows that any bike facility is a good bike facility.
And anything that's "protected" is an outstanding bike facility.

Why do you hate innovation?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

BEATTIE MISSES THE GOOD OL DAYS WHEN he and his buds were the only road going cyclists

its Malthus all over again..............

writing here, Portland reads like a cycling PITA. Jay has gone on abt cyclgestion for acoupla years now

then JB reveals in stopping in at the nude farm girls organic cycle bar after a stop at UC........

so.....

when I went put riding the Deschutes the ramgers cam n sprayed muh truck with Roundup while Orgonians took a Big Applle of the back rack....

[sms]

On 5/12/2016 8:41 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> Dear f***wits, here is my question: you can buy a DT clamp that is a braze-on substitute and install a braze-on FD or you can buy a FD with a clamp built-in. Is one better than the other?

Yes.

> Question No. 2 (for those people who actually know anything), after installing the new 6700 FD (left) Ultegra lever (this is the old 10 speed group), it feels really stiff -- as did the prior lever. I'm wondering if this is because it is paired with an old FD from an earlier group. It also doesn't seem all that happy with a compact, but I don't think there is any such thing as a compact FD. My adjustment is good.

You did not ask a question.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 8:41:51 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>

> Question No. 2 (for those people who actually know anything), after installing the new 6700 FD (left) Ultegra lever (this is the old 10 speed group), it feels really stiff -- as did the prior lever. I'm wondering if this is because it is paired with an old FD from an earlier group. It also doesn't seem all that happy with a compact, but I don't think there is any such thing as a compact FD. My adjustment is good.
>

Sorry J - missed that part - If you have any particular friction on the Shimano levers with the external shift cable you have a problem somewhere.

Shimano build these levers like this from the beginning because it presented the straightest and least restrictive pathway to the derailleurs. The ONLY friction you should feel is the return spring of the derailleur and a VERY minor spring return on the lever.

The newer levers with the interior cables are a pain in the ass to thread needing you to pull the rubber cover back and pull off a plastic cover. Push the cable through in one direction then to RE-push the cable though in the backwards facing direction. Threaded properly it too offers little to no spring tension. But the old style is the best.

[jbeattie]

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 2:43:25 PM UTC-7, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 4:59:43 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 5/13/2016 4:28 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On
> > >>>>> I again confirmed that the super-duper center-piece cycletrack through south waterfront is the killing fields for cyclists -- and not just because of other cyclists. It's a door-zone cycle track with street car stops on the left, so you can get people crossing in front of you from the stop on the left, drivers stepping out on the right, parallel street car tracks, ordinary pedestrian traffic, turning cars -- dogs and cats, living together! I'd like to punch the maroon who came up with that facility.
> > >
> > Heretic! Everyone knows that any bike facility is a good bike facility.
> > And anything that's "protected" is an outstanding bike facility.
> >
> > Why do you hate innovation?
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
>
> BEATTIE MISSES THE GOOD OL DAYS WHEN he and his buds were the only road going cyclists
>
> its Malthus all over again..............
>
> writing here, Portland reads like a cycling PITA. Jay has gone on abt cyclgestion for acoupla years now
>
> then JB reveals in stopping in at the nude farm girls organic cycle bar after a stop at UC........
>
> so.....

O.K., so I do like the nude farm girls at the organic cycle bar, but a lot of that super-hipster stuff is exhausting. Getting a latte at some spots is like being trapped at a performance art exhibition. Give me the f****** latte! I don't care if you can pour the image of the Virgin Mary! At expensive restaurants, I don't even understand the food specials. Capers and what? How many hops can you put in an IPA? Do you really need hand-crafted Vodka -- it's just f****** ethanol!

I pine away for the simpler days. "Today's special is a corn dog." I can understand that.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/13/2016 8:57 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> O.K., so I do like the nude farm girls at the organic cycle bar, but a lot of that super-hipster stuff is exhausting. Getting a latte at some spots is like being trapped at a performance art exhibition. Give me the f****** latte! I don't care if you can pour the image of the Virgin Mary! At expensive restaurants, I don't even understand the food specials. Capers and what? How many hops can you put in an IPA? Do you really need hand-crafted Vodka -- it's just f****** ethanol!

I was really proud of myself the other week. My wife and a friend
joined me for a concert in a distant city. We ate in a nice little
Italian restaurant. My wife asked me "What are these little things in
my pasta dish?" I guessed capers, and was correct. My foodie kids
would have been amazed.

> I pine away for the simpler days. "Today's special is a corn dog." I can understand that.

Are the lunch wagons still serving downtown? Go to the Polish one, say
"jenn dobrie" (phonetic) Ask for the pierogi, and understand that
pierogi is plural. You won't regret it. Carbo loading for your ride home.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I once went into the newly opened Starbucks at Kuala Lumpur Airport
(because it was the only place open ) and asked for a "cup of coffee".
They had nothing for sale that was identified a "cup of coffee" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Well, cultural change has +/-

254

[Duane]

I have to admit that it used to bug me but now I kind of enjoy going to a
Starbucks and ordering a medium coffee.

--
duane

[Ralph Barone]

jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 2:43:25 PM

>
> O.K., so I do like the nude farm girls at the organic cycle bar, but a
> lot of that super-hipster stuff is exhausting. Getting a latte at some
> spots is like being trapped at a performance art exhibition. Give me the
> f****** latte! I don't care if you can pour the image of the Virgin
> Mary! At expensive restaurants, I don't even understand the food
> specials. Capers and what? How many hops can you put in an IPA? Do you
> really need hand-crafted Vodka -- it's just f****** ethanol!
>
> I pine away for the simpler days. "Today's special is a corn dog." I can understand that.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.
>

Jay, you are the gem of this newsgroup.

[avag...@gmail.com]

WE suffered cyclegestion during Lance's move thru the TdF.

bike riding was up 4-5X

we have a 27 mile one way beach path with an 11 mile section on the mainland in n out of town to the Big Carlos Bay.

no big deal but yes the cyclegestion had tendency as with motor vehicles to congest at the most interesting riding areas where you would go 110 n the rest struggle with 45.

breaks up the usual rhythm developed over miles n miles of riding.

In JB's area obviously invaded by the inevitable phalanx of Franks, what was once and not too long ago, very uh I search for an appropriate word...avant...
becomes tedious caws quality dilutes...

Soon, Portland will rival NO

retire to NM or AZ ?

[Bertrand]

> I was really proud of myself the other week. My wife and a friend
> joined me for a concert in a distant city. We ate in a nice little
> Italian restaurant. My wife asked me "What are these little things in
> my pasta dish?" I guessed capers, and was correct. My foodie kids
> would have been amazed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzUpBAuxJGk

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/tanyachen/silly-jokes-only-canadians-will-appreciate?utm_term=.fcG0lyxK5z#.dqQYJ6D8j5

[jbeattie]

Epi-epilogue: the old FD went on to my son's el cheap-o Windsor (built with scraps and a Bike Island frame) because, as it turns out, his chain had eaten a hole in the side plate of the old FD -- for reasons that are not immediately apparent. The left lever on that bike had been whacked in a crash, so it got the old lever I had used as a spare on the CAAD 9 (until the new 6700 lever showed up). The Windsor also had an old Ultegra triple with a munged Octalink BB/crank interface (probably from a bad installation 20 years ago), and I constantly worried about it coming loose, which it did. My son chased it with his pedal wrench. Anyway, that came off, and it was loose.

The Windsor got the compact 105 crank and Ultegra BB off my commuter -- and the commuter got the Praxis Works Turn M30 OE crank from my Roubaix. The cup-and-sleeve insert Praxis Work BB on the Roubaix was driving me crazy with creaking, even after I reinstalled it with more anti-seize. I can use the Praxis crank on my commuter with a conventional (albeit proprietary) threaded-cup BB. On the Roubaix, I pressed in some BB30 bearings with Loctite 609 and popped in some Wheels Mfg Shimano adaptors. It's going to get a Shimano crank. All the parts are moving one bike to the right.

Yesterday, I built a new wheel on a DT R460 rim, the 23mm width replacement for the R450 on the CAAD 9 that had a cracked spoke hole. Nice cheap rim, and it builds straight. And this morning, I pulled the cranks off the CAAD 9 to see what shape the bearings were in. Right was great, but the left was grinding. This was my high anxiety job because I had put in the bearings will a killer strong sleeve bearing retainer and was worried I would never get them out. Well, two whacks, and the bearing was flying across the garage. I pressed in a single bearing, and very oddly, the replaced bearing felt great out of the bike. Maybe the whackage did something.

So, the CAAD 9 is all buttoned-up and ready to go back to school when the time comes (after more riding here in PDX) and so is the Windsor, which is the bike I use when I visit my son in SLC. Commuter has a new crank.

My SuperSix is next in line for cleaning after a long ride in the rain yesterday. I don't generally ride that bike in the rain, but we got caught in this beach mist-turned-drizzle-turned-rain, and the return trip was all up in the fog covered hills. I was waiting for my son on descents because he couldn't see where he was going because his glasses were perpetually wet and foggy, and unlike me, he is near sighted and not far sighted. I can look over the top of my glasses and see where I am going -- mostly, until the rain starts slapping my eyeballs, and I have to hide behind my wet glasses. I was also mis-dressed and soaked, which made descending just that much more fun, shivering with chattering teeth. It was 80+ degrees two days ago. I love spring time in the PNW.

-- Jay Beattie.