Stress Analysis in the Design of Bicycle Infrastructure

[sms]

<https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf>

This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley Bicycle
Coalition Bike Summit.

Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S. has the lowest
number of bicycle travel in terms of distance, and the highest death rate.

[Joerg]

No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those countries,
Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the numbers on slide 6 are
what they are.

When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands (Vaals) to
Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed bike on the bike path,
put it in 12th gear and hammer those 20 miles. I did the same distance
here (Cameron Park to Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing
in with fast traffic at times which some potentially interested cyclists
don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field for half a mile,
including crossing a muddy creek and lifting the bike over some low
fences. Hardly anyone would be willing to do the latter. On the way back
it was mostly along a county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly
fun.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 6:54:57 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

>
> When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands (Vaals) to
> Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed bike on the bike path,
> put it in 12th gear and hammer those 20 miles. I did the same distance
> here (Cameron Park to Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing
> in with fast traffic at times which some potentially interested cyclists
> don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field for half a mile,
> including crossing a muddy creek and lifting the bike over some low
> fences. Hardly anyone would be willing to do the latter. On the way back
> it was mostly along a county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly
> fun.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Lifting a bike over low fences? Sounds a lot like trespassing onto private land.

What is it with you that you have such difficulty riding where so mqany others ride without fear? Oh I know, a fw others share your fears and thus bicycvling is extremely dangerous.

But then again, thousands of others across the U.S.A. and Canada ride on rodes with 55 mph sopeed limits and they do it without fear or problems.

Cheers

Cheers

[sms]

On 8/11/2017 4:37 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 6:54:57 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> Snipped
>>
>> When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands (Vaals) to
>> Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed bike on the bike path,
>> put it in 12th gear and hammer those 20 miles. I did the same distance
>> here (Cameron Park to Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing
>> in with fast traffic at times which some potentially interested cyclists
>> don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field for half a mile,
>> including crossing a muddy creek and lifting the bike over some low
>> fences. Hardly anyone would be willing to do the latter. On the way back
>> it was mostly along a county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly
>> fun.
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> Lifting a bike over low fences? Sounds a lot like trespassing onto private land.
>
> What is it with you that you have such difficulty riding where so mqany others ride without fear? Oh I know, a fw others share your fears and thus bicycvling is extremely dangerous.

In the area Joerg is referring to, the issue is that not many others
ride, because of fear of riding on US50, a legitimate fear.
<https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cameron+Park,+CA/@38.6654406,-121.0344504>.

I would never move to a place like that if I was interested in
transportational cycling.

[AMuzi]

But there's no end to that argument.

People who live at a bus stop and work at another think
buses are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for
some people they are merely inconvenient but for most people
buses are not useful in any way.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/11/2017 6:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote:
>> <https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf>
>>
>>
>>
>> This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley Bicycle
>> Coalition Bike Summit.
>>
>> Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S. has the lowest
>> number of bicycle travel in terms of distance, and the highest death
>> rate.
>
>
> No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those countries,
> Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the numbers on slide 6 are
> what they are.

Wow, those U.S. numbers! 44 cyclists killed per billion kilometers of
bicycle travel!

Let's see... that means there are 14.1 MILLION miles ridden for every
bike fatality. Hmm. Putting it that way, it just doesn't sound dangerous.

Let's try another way. How many miles do you ride in a year, Joerg?
Would you guess 3000? If so, and if you are of only average skill
(probably the case), you'll reach a 50% chance of dying on the bike
after just 4,700 years of riding.

Maybe after you've ridden for a thousand years or so, you ought to take
a cycling class. It will improve your odds considerably.

> I did the same distance [20 miles]

> here (Cameron Park to Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing
> in with fast traffic at times which some potentially interested cyclists
> don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field for half a mile,
> including crossing a muddy creek and lifting the bike over some low
> fences. Hardly anyone would be willing to do the latter.

I'd say only those paranoid of traffic would even consider it! Sheesh!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday with a guy
who likes to use the bus to get out toward a distant bike trail. But
when we first moved to town and had just one car, I looked into riding a
bus the seven or so miles to work. It would have taken far longer than
just biking the whole way.

But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate:
http://www.theonion.com/article/report-98-percent-of-us-commuters-favor-public-tra-1434

"Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Yes, that's one of their all-time best.

My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every
residence to every destination is ridiculous.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

And my point is that IF you have separate bicycle facilities like that car drivers again believe you don't belong on their roads.

[Joerg]

Those are not kiddie paths and they do almost go from residence to
destination in the Netherlands. The only way to experience this is to
actually stay there a few weeks and ride all the time.

When I worked in Hengelo we rented a house sight-unseen and split the
cost between four people. When I got there it turned out to have a bike
path right in front and the company also had a bike path system
connector straight into a massive bicycle parking lot. At one section we
had three lanes on the bike path while car drivers only had two. Having
grown up in Germany I was pleasantly surprised but the three others who
grew up in the Netherlands considered that to be normal.

You don't need it to every house. Folsom is an example how to do it
correctly. They have built a network of bike paths going through nearly
all residential and many commercial areas. Most destinations require a
few hundred yards of street riding but that is on low-traffic streets.
Except in some inner city areas but the very skittish could always hop
off and push the bike on a sidewalk for a few yards (I always ride in
the street).

[Joerg]

Bicycles are not allowed on Hwy 50, that's the key problem. If you want
to go to Intel, Kaiser, Costco, Home Depot et cetera the only way is to
hack it across a field, here:

https://goo.gl/maps/RZyYFr7MCTT2

There is now a gate and various habitat fences. I guess they are fixing
to put in developments and a road. Meaning the ride will be over soon.
The only alternative is White Rock Road which is close to suicidal for a
cyclist. Well, then I'll use the car until they are done, after which
hopefully that new road with have a bike lane because it's going to be a
race track.

>
> I would never move to a place like that if I was interested in
> transportational cycling.
>

Sometimes it's good to move somewhere and then help estabishing a
cycling culture, also pushing for an infrastructure. Else it'll never
get expanded.

For cyclists we already have much better options than we did 5-10 years
ago. However, one must be able to handle a mountain bike.

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/CoachLane1.JPG

We can now ride all the way to Walmart, brewpubs and other places in
Placerville on mostly dirt roads and singletrack though some of it isn't
for the faint of heart. Works for me. I simply adjusted my spending of
money to businesses that can be reached that way. Heck, even one of my
clients and a software engineer I network with are located directly on
that trail.

The downside is that I am going through a lot of rear tires. Oh well.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 10:45:41 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

> We can now ride all the way to Walmart, brewpubs and other places in
> Placerville on mostly dirt roads and singletrack though some of it isn't
> for the faint of heart. Works for me. I simply adjusted my spending of
> money to businesses that can be reached that way. Heck, even one of my
> clients and a software engineer I network with are located directly on
> that trail.
>
> The downside is that I am going through a lot of rear tires. Oh well.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I can ride all the way from London Ontario Canada to Ottawa Ontario Canada and i can do it without going onto dirt roads or bicycle paths/trails if I want to. There are many, many places in Ontario Canada where i can ride a bicycle too without having to use bicycle paths or trails.

I find many bicycle lanes, paths and trails to be very hazardous to use due to their extremely poor design (poor sight lines for example; being in the door zone, or being on the right side of a right turning motor vehicle lane) or because they are MUP/MUT.

If I were to ride only in designated bicycle lanes or one segregated bicycle paths then I'd be doing very little bicycling because we don not have segregated bicycle paths here and for that I'm very thankful. I can hop on my bicycle and go to where I want to be (even if it''s a hundred plus miles away) by using, GASP!, paved roads shared with motor vehicles.

Maybe YOU need segregated bicycling facilities in order to ride your bicycle but thousands of us do not nor do we constantly push for such segregated facilities.

Cheers

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 15:05:55 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

How many of the US deaths were due to getting hit by a drunk driver?
Of the bicycle fatalities which I'm somewhat familiar, two were from
drunk drivers and one was from a heart attack.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=cyclist+killed+by+drunk+driver>
"Investigators, however, have never provided a reasonable
explanation how (the cyclist), struck from behind, shares
responsibility for his own death..."

I'm also wondering if the statistics from other countries include or
exclude drunk drivers and heart attacks. Statistics without sources
are worthless.

Want to make the roads really safe for cyclists? Just execute drunk
drivers on the spot. Bicycle fatality statistics should drop rapidly.
However, I'm not sure it will affect the overall picture as some
cycling accident investigations seem to follow a "blame the victim"
mentality:
<http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-bicyclists-drivers-crashes-statistics-2014nov22-story.html>

Incidentally, I now have a built in traffic stress meter. Thanks to
one of the vasodilators (blood vessel expanders) that I'm taking, a
sudden increase in blood pressure, such as after a near miss type
incident, causes my face to "flush". It feels like I'm wearing a pin
cushion. It's quite handy to determine if I'm "stressed" while riding
or driving and need to take a break.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Joy Beeson]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 15:55:02 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

> lifting the bike over some low
> fences

Exactly how low? I don't think I could lift my bike over a fence much
above knee high, and I can't think of a use for a fence that low --
confining turtles? A symbolic boundary marker?

Of course I *am* seventy-six, female, and have a damaged rotator cuff.
But there is also the problem of getting *me* over the fence without
damaging it. When I was eight, I could climb a fence at the corner
post, but at a hundred and sixty-eight pounds, fence-climbing is right
out, unless it is built like a ladder. I think I *have* seen a board
panel in a wire fence, but can't remember when and where.


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Joerg]

My experience is that some of them believe that anyhow regardlesss of
whether there is a bike path or not. Those are the ones deliberately
passing closely or speeding up to the cyclist and the lean on the horn.

[Frank Krygowski]

Absolutely.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Also true.

I forget how many states now have mandatory sidepath laws. Whatever the number,
it's too high.

- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-12 10:03, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 15:55:02 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> lifting the bike over some low
>> fences
>
> Exactly how low? I don't think I could lift my bike over a fence much
> above knee high, and I can't think of a use for a fence that low --
> confining turtles? A symbolic boundary marker?
>

About 2ft, those orange habitat delimiters. There is construction
pending and they want to keep the bulldozers out of that. As usual,
hikers and cyclist are of zero importance to those folks. This is why it
is good that we have rules in most jurisdictions around here that bike
lanes or paths must be built when new developments go in. Folsom often
even requires class I. If they didn't then the builders would not spend
one red cent on that.

> Of course I *am* seventy-six, female, and have a damaged rotator cuff.
> But there is also the problem of getting *me* over the fence without
> damaging it. When I was eight, I could climb a fence at the corner
> post, but at a hundred and sixty-eight pounds, fence-climbing is right
> out, unless it is built like a ladder. I think I *have* seen a board
> panel in a wire fence, but can't remember when and where.
>

I am a tad heavier but I have no problem lifting a bike and myself over
a regular cattle fence. Sometimes that is needed when a gate is
recalcitrant (but without trespassing). Or when I have to climb over to
open a latch from the inside to get a runaway farm animal back in.

Chronic rotator cuff issues can prevent that but other than that it's
mostly a matter of training. Being female shouldn't make a difference.
My sister was always the better tree climber compared to us boys.

[Frank Krygowski]

Stevenage and Milton Keynes and other "new towns" in Britain are also
examples of how to do it correctly. One can bicycle from anywhere to anywhere
without interacting with cars. Except almost nobody bothers. It's easier
to drive.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 10:45:41 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

> On 2017-08-11 16:52, sms wrote:
> >
> >
> > I would never move to a place like that if I was interested in
> > transportational cycling.

Indeed. I chose my residence carefully, so transporational cycling was possible.
Joerg should have done the same.

> Sometimes it's good to move somewhere and then help estabishing a
> cycling culture, also pushing for an infrastructure. Else it'll never
> get expanded.

So what have you done to establish a cycling culture there? All we've heard
about is whining that riding there is dangerous.

- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

There are communities that do the implementation correctly and there are
those which don't. Constantly lamenting the latter is not helpful. One
has to look at the successful ones and there are whole countries who
were successful. Stop criticizing everything and book a nice long
bicycle vacation in the Netherlands. Or Denmark.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Another problem is that when they finish you have to know how to find your way through residential areas to find the bike paths. The north side of Mt. Diablo is that way. Also I went with a group up Twin Peaks in San Francisco and damn if I can find the way again since those are service roads and not public.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

In San Francisco in many places where there are "bicycle lanes" I've watched someone in an SUV open a door which extended far beyond the bike lane.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Joy, with all the racks and bags you carry Godzilla couldn't lift your bike over a low fence.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I will say that around here the road crews are as polite and considerate as possible. Of course they do have a job to complete within their contracted time.

[Joerg]

Going to meeting, providing input, helping keep MTB trails open, and so
on. But most of all getting people on those trails because if they
aren't used they'll go away some day.

Riding on the trails is not dangerous. Riding on White Rock Road is.

https://goo.gl/maps/KRw6mqgnBrw

It's hard to say how much the constant nagging by the various parties
including myself achieves. Fact is, now that Folsom expands south of Hwy
50 they have spec'd a class I bike facility with connection to the trail
system into the plan. That will finally connect the El Dorado Trail to
the Folsom bike path system and then on to the river trail to
Sacramento. And on to Davis. As I always thought it should be.

[Joerg]

Similar in our area. I recently showed all this stuff to a local
cyclist. He lives here for about five years, longer than I cycle in this
area and he is more hardcore than I am. Does all his grocery shopping
via bike and trailer, things like that. Yet he didn't know those "silent
routes". A lot of times he'd say "Wow, I never knew this was here!".

I found most of this via satellite photos. It's not on any map. Even
when you switch to "Show bike routes" most of the local MTB trails do
not show up at all.

[Andre Jute]

Hmm. For today's ride I met a chum at an art store on the very edge of town. It's in an industrial estate and the art store staff close the gate at their end when they finish work (they don't open on Saturdays so today the gate was closed all day). At the other end of the industrial estate there is no gate at all, just the entrance road. My chum rode through the industrial estate, up into the parking lot beside the gate (which is inset, well clear of the passing road) and lifted his bike over the wall before I, just arriving from the other side, could dismount to help him. He's 74 or 75. Didn't seem to stress him out, either: he was chatting away while he did it, and afterwards, and we immediately rode up a steep, long hill.

Andre Jute
You're only as old as your mistress thinks you are -- Honoré de Balzac

[Joy Beeson]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 12:02:42 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

> I am a tad heavier but I have no problem lifting a bike and myself over
> a regular cattle fence.

A hundred and sixty pounds of downward pressure on a wire designed to
resist in an entirely different direction, and to share the load with
a bunch of other wires . . . well, it's extremely rude to do it even
if the damage isn't immediately apparent.

But the boundary-marker fences you describe don't sound like much more
impediment than a curb.

Perhaps less than a railroad. I've been known to get to the Crazy Egg
by taking a footpath from 100 N into their parking lot. Ballast is
not easy to walk on.

[Joy Beeson]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 12:22:31 -0700 (PDT), cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

> Joy, with all the racks and bags you carry Godzilla
> couldn't lift your bike over a low fence.

Only one rack, and the whole bag of bags weighs approximately nothing.

I think I'll take the scale out to the garage.

Me: 167.4 pounds
Me plus bike: 210.0 pounds
Bike, with hat and gloves on handlebars: 42.6 pounds

I don't think the bottles were full. Each holds an Imperial pint --
there must be a story behind the American standard water bottle
holding an Imperial pint -- So the weight could be up to a pound and a
half more.

I could fit four gallons of milk into the panniers, and a gallon
weighs sixteen pounds, so in theory the bike could weigh more than a
hundred pounds. Probably did the time I carried a case of beer five
miles, but that was a different bike and a long time ago, and I never
did it again.

[Frank Krygowski]

One day I may; but there are about 200 nations on earth. If only Denmark and
the Netherlands have been successful at building the world you demand, why
would that be?

I suggest it's not because the other 198 or so are populated by dummies.
Instead, I suggest that there are factors at work in those two countries that
are absent almost everywhere else. They are both countries with a history of
high bike mode share, which itself is important. And they have that history
largely because of flatness, density, and economic history, among other things.
And those countries are still among the very few that are willing to actively
dissuade car use.

You're among the people who point to failed results of bike infrastructure
and say "well, they did it wrong." But in almost all cases, "they" did it
the way advocates requested. For example, "they" painted lots of bike lane
stripes when advocates claimed bike lane stripes would get lots of people
cycling. Now those same advocates are saying "Of _course_ paint stripes aren't
good enough."

Before Stevanage and Milton Keynes were built, advocates claimed separate bike
paths everywhere would induce people to leave their cars at home. So those
paths were designed into those new towns, a complete second transportation
route system, hoping to duplicate Dutch practice. But you're saying even that
is not good enough.

Face it, Joerg. Nothing is going to get more than a few percent of Americans
out of their cars, except some sort of national disaster.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 3:35:16 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-08-12 12:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 10:45:41 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> >> On 2017-08-11 16:52, sms wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I would never move to a place like that if I was interested in
> >>> transportational cycling.
> >
> > Indeed. I chose my residence carefully, so transporational cycling was possible.
> > Joerg should have done the same.
> >
> >> Sometimes it's good to move somewhere and then help estabishing a
> >> cycling culture, also pushing for an infrastructure. Else it'll never
> >> get expanded.
> >
> > So what have you done to establish a cycling culture there? All we've heard
> > about is whining that riding there is dangerous.
> >
>

> Going to meeting...

Like what? I got appointed to a committee that got 3 federal grants for bike &
pedestrian projects. I single-handedly got another bike/ped path paved. I was
on a statewide committee to evaluate other bike/ped grants. I initiated two
bike transportation map projects, and gathered the volunteers and officials to
work on them. I've attended many meetings on transportation projects, and
caused definite changes on some of the projects.

> providing input,

That probably means "I talked to some guy." So, like what input? And what did
your "input" achieve?

> helping keep MTB trails open, and so on.

Your probably the only person here who considers a mountain bike trail to be
a valid transportational facility. Those things have a lower percentage of
practical (vs. recreational) use than even a farm country rail trail.

> But most of all getting people on those trails because if they
> aren't used they'll go away some day.

Sorry, Joerg, but your resume fails.

> Riding on the trails is not dangerous.

Hah! You're the guy who's harangued us with tales of mountain lions and
stampeding deer, of close calls saved by inches with disc brakes, of bright
lights needed to prevent being run over by motorcycles. You can't have it
both ways. If your trails are so safe, drop the macho fantasy stories.

> Riding on White Rock Road is.
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/KRw6mqgnBrw

That looks like a photo of a cycling paradise.

> It's hard to say how much the constant nagging by the various parties
> including myself achieves.

I was asking what YOU have achieved, not "various parties." It sounds like
you've achieved nothing.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Something that the advocates of Holland's bicycle paths all seem to
ignore is that the cost of owning and operating an automobile in the
Netherlands is that most expensive in the E.U.
http://nltimes.nl/2016/02/01/survey-car-ownership-expensive-netherlands

Perhaps the solution to bicycle paths is simply to add a 100% tax to
all auto purchases :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 12:15:38 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

The point that you, and others, seems to be missing was that Holland
started their bicycle transportation planning just after WW I ended.
In the 1920's bicycles were used in 80% of the distance of all trips
made. By the 1950's there were 400 bicycle parking facilities in
Amsterdam - some 70,000 parking spaces.

The first comprehensive bicycle census in Amsterdam
was held in 1930. 250 intersections were monitored on a single day
from 6.30 am until 6.30 pm. On the section from Leidsestraat
to Leidseplein 30,000 cyclists passed during the period and some 1100
of whom passed by between 8.45 and 9.00 am!

Now compare that data with the U.S.

Auto's were relatively cheap even before WW I. In 1910 Ford produced
12,000 cars. In 1914 Ford built more automobiles then all other car
makers combined. A Ford cost $900 1910 and $390 in 1915.
My father, who came from a normal (i.e., not wealthy) New England
farming family, had a Ford when he went to collage in 1926.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 09:34:34 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 15:05:55 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>wrote:
>
>><https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf>
>>
>>This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley Bicycle
>>Coalition Bike Summit.
>>
>>Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S. has the lowest
>>number of bicycle travel in terms of distance, and the highest death rate.
>
>How many of the US deaths were due to getting hit by a drunk driver?
>Of the bicycle fatalities which I'm somewhat familiar, two were from
>drunk drivers and one was from a heart attack.
><https://www.google.com/search?q=cyclist+killed+by+drunk+driver>
> "Investigators, however, have never provided a reasonable
> explanation how (the cyclist), struck from behind, shares
> responsibility for his own death..."
>
>I'm also wondering if the statistics from other countries include or
>exclude drunk drivers and heart attacks. Statistics without sources
>are worthless.
>
>Want to make the roads really safe for cyclists? Just execute drunk
>drivers on the spot. Bicycle fatality statistics should drop rapidly.
>However, I'm not sure it will affect the overall picture as some
>cycling accident investigations seem to follow a "blame the victim"
>mentality:
><http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-bicyclists-drivers-crashes-statistics-2014nov22-story.html>
>

There are statistics that show the percent of drivers, both bicycle
and auto, who have imbibed.

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/pedestrians-and-bicyclists/fatalityfacts/bicycles
Among bicyclists ages 16 and older who were killed in 2015, 23 percent
had blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) at or above 0.08 percent.

https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/09/study-links-alcohol-and-bike-deaths/
Some 21 percent of autopsies for New York City bicyclists who died
within three hours of their accidents detected alcohol in the body,
according to a Department of Health and Mental Hygiene study that
examined fatal bicycling accidents in New York City from 1996 to 2005.

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-californa-leads-national-bicycle-deaths-20141027-story.html
( referring to fatalities ) 28% of riders age 16 and older had blood
alcohol concentrations of .08% or higher, the level at which someone
is considered impaired.

I googled on "bicycle fatalities+cyclist who have high BAC" and there
were 1,050,000 hits.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:54:40 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Out of curiosity, how many is that?

Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different
laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass
closely or leaned on the horn.

Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then
they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in
very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people
occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of
beep.

Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Duane]

Your experience where you live is not indicative of everywhere.

I don't think traffic in Quebec is as bad as he portrays where he is but we
certainly have rednecks buzzing us and yelling to get on the bike path or
whatever. The very large majority of drivers try to keep the required
distance but it's certainly the few idiots that you remember.

--
duane

[cycl...@gmail.com]

California now has a 3 foot clearance law. But about 5% of the traffic purposely takes a close pass at you. Seldom horns but way too often the lack of clearance. Took a ride out to Alameda yesterday and on the way back we have to take the center of the lane because tree roots have lifted the pavement in the shadows of the trees. Cars came up behind us in our lane before pulling into the center lane and then immediately pulled over into our lane again. There was no reason for this. There were no turns, there was no other traffic and there was no reason to pull over directly in front of us. This wasn't a couple of cars but every single car that passed us. And there is a 20 foot divider in the road so there was no on-coming traffic that might have made the drivers nervous. And the three of us were riding at 20 mph so it isn't as if we were blocking anyone.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-12 22:26, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 3:35:16 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-08-12 12:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 10:45:41 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-08-11 16:52, sms wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would never move to a place like that if I was interested in
>>>>> transportational cycling.
>>>
>>> Indeed. I chose my residence carefully, so transporational cycling was possible.
>>> Joerg should have done the same.
>>>
>>>> Sometimes it's good to move somewhere and then help estabishing a
>>>> cycling culture, also pushing for an infrastructure. Else it'll never
>>>> get expanded.
>>>
>>> So what have you done to establish a cycling culture there? All we've heard
>>> about is whining that riding there is dangerous.
>>>
>>
>> Going to meeting...
>
> Like what? I got appointed to a committee that got 3 federal grants for bike &
> pedestrian projects. I single-handedly got another bike/ped path paved. I was
> on a statewide committee to evaluate other bike/ped grants. I initiated two
> bike transportation map projects, and gathered the volunteers and officials to
> work on them. I've attended many meetings on transportation projects, and
> caused definite changes on some of the projects.
>

I guess most of us know you are good at tooting your own horn.

>> providing input,
>
> That probably means "I talked to some guy." So, like what input? And what did
> your "input" achieve?
>

Input during meetings, followed up by detailed written input to committee.

>> helping keep MTB trails open, and so on.
>
> Your probably the only person here who considers a mountain bike trail to be
> a valid transportational facility. Those things have a lower percentage of
> practical (vs. recreational) use than even a farm country rail trail.
>

Not around here. People in my area know how to handle a mountain bike.
It does not scare them.

>> But most of all getting people on those trails because if they
>> aren't used they'll go away some day.
>
> Sorry, Joerg, but your resume fails.
>
>> Riding on the trails is not dangerous.
>
> Hah! You're the guy who's harangued us with tales of mountain lions and
> stampeding deer, of close calls saved by inches with disc brakes, of bright
> lights needed to prevent being run over by motorcycles. You can't have it
> both ways. If your trails are so safe, drop the macho fantasy stories.
>

I've said before that you should read more comprehensively. Then you'd
know that there are easy methods that I employ to mitigate such risks.
LED lights have been invented. So has spray.

>> Riding on White Rock Road is.
>>
>> https://goo.gl/maps/KRw6mqgnBrw
>
> That looks like a photo of a cycling paradise.
>

Until the guy in the pickup truck comes and pushed you off the road. On
sections of which a barbed wire fence will meet you. Or the guy who
forgot that he had loaded fence sections that stuck out the right side.

>> It's hard to say how much the constant nagging by the various parties
>> including myself achieves.
>
> I was asking what YOU have achieved, not "various parties." It sounds like
> you've achieved nothing.
>

You don't have a clue.

[Joerg]

I started riding again fall of 2013 and it was dozens. Most of them
low-lifes in pickup truck of various degrees of dilapidation. Deliberate
close passes, yelling, the finger, and so on. Also sevral sports car
drivers who probably think they own the road because they paid so much.

> Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different
> laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass
> closely or leaned on the horn.
>

I only know Thais who live in the US and, like people from the
Philippines, they are among the most friendly there are. Very pleasant
to be around.

> Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then
> they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in
> very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people
> occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of
> beep.
>

I don't mind that. I meant the passes where they perceive me to be too
far into "their" lane, pass very closely and then pull hard right
immediately in front.

> Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray?

Sometimes, yes.

[mike.pho...@gmail.com]

> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Yep. I was visiting in Anaheim and wanted to visit Griffith Observatory. 35 miles driving. 6.5 hours bus travel time plus waits at stops. Biked there in 4 hours.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2017 14:03:33 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Thanks for digging out the numbers.

So, if about 25% of bicycle fatalities were due to drunk cycling, and
all the various suggestions for improving infrastructure, facilities,
and services were 100% effective at eliminating the remaining
non-alcohol related bicycle fatalities, we would still be dealing with
a sizeable number of cycling fatalities. Wonderful.

Of course, the experts know the cause of all this drunk bicycle
riding. It's the increase in bicycle commuting:
"More bicyclists, many helmetless and drunk, dying"
<http://www.reuters.com/article/us-bicycle-deaths-trends-idUSKCN0IU23Y20141110>
"The reason is there’s simply more biking,"
"We know what’s going on out there," he said. "There’s a
lot more commuting by adults."
So, there you have it. Selling bicycles to drunk drivers is
increasing fatalities, while about 25% of bicycle commuters ride
drunk. Brilliant observations and logic.

I have a different theory. My palatial office is located next to a
bridge which is heavily used by the homeless to travel between the
local homeless shelter and the panhandling areas. Almost all of them
ride shiny new bicycles, all most likely stolen. I've come very close
to hitting bicyclists when leaving my office at night because they
tend to wear dark clothes, have no bicycle lighting, ride on parts of
the street where I would not expect them, and tend to ride rather
erratically. None wear helmets. I've had a few confrontations and
found about 25% to be drunk, drugged, and/or mentally defective. What
chance would you think these homeless bicycle riders have in traffic?
If the bicycle accident statistics included data by economic status,
the picture might be clearer.

Maybe a bicycle lock with a built in breath analyzer?
Bicycle dealers should run a background check on prospective buyers
for prior cycling under the influence convictions?


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Joerg]

> One day I may; ...


Until then it would be wise to defer judgment.

[...]

[Joerg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHdbIhL0eso

This is about 50mi from here. So yes, it is possible.

> Auto's were relatively cheap even before WW I. In 1910 Ford produced
> 12,000 cars. In 1914 Ford built more automobiles then all other car
> makers combined. A Ford cost $900 1910 and $390 in 1915.
> My father, who came from a normal (i.e., not wealthy) New England
> farming family, had a Ford when he went to collage in 1926.

We have to stop lamenting "Oh, we didn't start on the correct foot 100
years ago so to heck with it, let's just throw in the towel". We ought
to learn from other countries and that goes vice-versa as well. For
example, many bike path designs in Germany are thoroughly botched and
they could learn from ... <gasp> ... <drum roll> ... the US how to do a
better design. Not quantity but design.

[sms]

On 8/13/2017 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

>> Your probably the only person here who considers a mountain bike trail
>> to be
>> a valid transportational facility. Those things have a lower
>> percentage of
>> practical (vs. recreational) use than even a farm country rail trail.
>>
>
> Not around here. People in my area know how to handle a mountain bike.
> It does not scare them.

In the Bay Area there are several unpaved trails that are used for
transportation. They are commonly referred to as mountain bike trails
even though they aren't difficult trails, but you do want to have
mountain bike type equipment to ride on them since in the summer there's
a lot of sand and in the winter a lot of mud. The one I've been on is
out in the Baylands behind NASA. There's been talk about paving it, but
it hasn't happened. There was another one alongside a creek that went
under 101 over to Intel and beyond, and that one was finally paved.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[sms]

On 8/12/2017 12:41 PM, Joerg wrote:

> Bicycles are not allowed on Hwy 50, that's the key problem. If you want

There's no other road?! I recall when they opened part of I-280 to
bicycles because they build I-280 partially on the old CA35 and there
was no good alternate. Later they built a paved trail that bypassed the
freeway section but they still allow bicycles on that short stretch of
I-280, it was a big battle to get Caltrans to allow bicycles on the
freeway even though it was only one exit and there is a good shoulder.
On I-80 there are some sections between Cisco Grove and US20 to Nevada
City with no frontage road in the Sierras and you had to use I-80--I got
a flat tire on one of those sections.

[Frank Krygowski]

<sigh> That's a video taken at a college campus that actively dissuades
the use of cars on campus. Anyone can read about U.C. Davis and its
bike-related history.

As I've said, the key element is dissuading car traffic. Without that,
bike infrastructure is almost never capable of generating more than 3%
bike mode share.

>> Auto's were relatively cheap even before WW I. In 1910 Ford produced
>> 12,000 cars. In 1914 Ford built more automobiles then all other car
>> makers combined. A Ford cost $900 1910 and $390 in 1915.
>> My father, who came from a normal (i.e., not wealthy) New England
>> farming family, had a Ford when he went to collage in 1926.
>
>
> We have to stop lamenting "Oh, we didn't start on the correct foot 100
> years ago so to heck with it, let's just throw in the towel". We ought
> to learn from other countries and that goes vice-versa as well.

That's a good idea only if you somehow learn to turn the United States
into a nation smaller than West Virginia, but almost dead flat.

Also, give it at least four times higher population density to equal
Denmark's, or twelve times higher to equal Netherlands'. Somehow give it
a long history of high utility bike mode share long before bike
facilities. Make sure the average trip distance is just a couple miles
as well. Do away with most of the hot weather, too. And as mentioned, do
whatever you can to dissuade use of private cars.

That's what's behind Netherlands' and Denmark's current bike mode share.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Some people here complain about frequent close passes. It happens to me
only rarely - I'd say roughly once per 100 miles of riding, which would
be once in at least 1000 cars. And almost none of those include any horn
blaring or yelling.

But then, I tend to ride more toward lane center than many cyclists.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Oh please, I haven't listed half of what I've done. Why not toot yours
in some detail?

... If you've really accomplished something, that is.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Frank - most major cities in the US have the population and the density. A really good local bike shop is giving it up after five years of trying because they just can't sell enough bikes or outsell the Internet on components.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 6:51:19 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> Some people here complain about frequent close passes. It happens to me
> only rarely - I'd say roughly once per 100 miles of riding, which would
> be once in at least 1000 cars. And almost none of those include any horn
> blaring or yelling.
>
> But then, I tend to ride more toward lane center than many cyclists.

Yesterday was Sunday and without job pressure they drive a lot more relaxed. But I still got a couple of close passes in 50 miles. But I was flabbergasted at the complete disregard for stop-before-free-right-turn. Even directly in front of the auxiliary police station with a cop right outside they didn't so much as slow up. And at the main police station perhaps three cars drove right through red lights.

[Radey Shouman]

cycl...@gmail.com writes:

> On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 6:51:19 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Some people here complain about frequent close passes. It happens to me
>> only rarely - I'd say roughly once per 100 miles of riding, which would
>> be once in at least 1000 cars. And almost none of those include any horn
>> blaring or yelling.
>>
>> But then, I tend to ride more toward lane center than many cyclists.
>
> Yesterday was Sunday and without job pressure they drive a lot more
> relaxed. But I still got a couple of close passes in 50 miles. But I
> was flabbergasted at the complete disregard for
> stop-before-free-right-turn.

That is one of the least observed traffic rules ever. Compliance must
be well under 5% almost anywhere in the US. Next in line is refusing to
yield to pedestrians in the crosswalk while performing that right-on-red

turn.

> Even directly in front of the auxiliary
> police station with a cop right outside they didn't so much as slow
> up. And at the main police station perhaps three cars drove right
> through red lights.

--

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-13 15:29, sms wrote:
> On 8/13/2017 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>>> Your probably the only person here who considers a mountain bike trail
>>> to be
>>> a valid transportational facility. Those things have a lower
>>> percentage of
>>> practical (vs. recreational) use than even a farm country rail trail.
>>>
>>
>> Not around here. People in my area know how to handle a mountain bike.
>> It does not scare them.
>
> In the Bay Area there are several unpaved trails that are used for
> transportation. They are commonly referred to as mountain bike trails
> even though they aren't difficult trails, but you do want to have
> mountain bike type equipment to ride on them since in the summer there's
> a lot of sand and in the winter a lot of mud. The one I've been on is
> out in the Baylands behind NASA. There's been talk about paving it, but
> it hasn't happened. There was another one alongside a creek that went
> under 101 over to Intel and beyond, and that one was finally paved.
>

We have those as well in the valley and we call them flatlander's trails :-)

They are manicured dirt and sand trails next to the regular paved way.
Up here it's different. Every winter some lesser used sections overgrow
and then you have to guess where the heck the trail is. Not without
risk. This spring I plowed through thick overgrowth and then hit a major
wash-out underneath that wasn't there before.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-13 15:38, sms wrote:
> On 8/12/2017 12:41 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> Bicycles are not allowed on Hwy 50, that's the key problem. If you want
>
> There's no other road?! I recall when they opened part of I-280 to
> bicycles because they build I-280 partially on the old CA35 and there
> was no good alternate. Later they built a paved trail that bypassed the
> freeway section but they still allow bicycles on that short stretch of
> I-280, it was a big battle to get Caltrans to allow bicycles on the
> freeway even though it was only one exit and there is a good shoulder.
> On I-80 there are some sections between Cisco Grove and US20 to Nevada
> City with no frontage road in the Sierras and you had to use I-80--I got
> a flat tire on one of those sections.
>

Around here they don't allow that. Yes, there is another road. It would
mean a major detour and it is a two-lane race track, almost suicidal for
cyclists. Commuters come tearing around uphill corners assuming there is
nobody in the lane. Until there is. Even without cyclists there are some
ghastly accidents, such as high-speed smashes into a slow truck because
there was opposing traffic and they couldn't evade.

[sms]

On 8/14/2017 5:48 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

<snip>

> Frank - most major cities in the US have the population and the density. A really good local bike shop is giving it up after five years of trying because they just can't sell enough bikes or outsell the Internet on components.

I receive the publication "Bicycle Reseller." Any shop that tries to
compete with "the Internet" solely on price is doomed. The number of
good bicycles sold online is still very low. The real competition is
getting people that are shopping at Toys R Us, Target, and Walmart to
come to the bicycle shop. Tried to convince my neighbor that he should
buy good kids bikes, even used, rather than bikes from Toys R Us, to no
avail, he came back with two pieces of crap yesterday. I think that some
shops could really do well if they'd accept some lower margins in kids
bikes or offer a guaranteed trade-in value on the next size up, and sell
the used kids bikes.

Wish we had a shop like Yellow Jersey, but just as the lease rates in
Madison were too high, the lease rates in the Bay Area would never allow
such a shop.

[sms]

In my area a vehicle can make a right on red without stopping directly
in view of a police officer and nothing will happen. I want to scream
"give him a ticket."

Many years ago, walking my kids to school, a vehicle failed to stop for
us in the crosswalk and I yelled at the driver. And there WAS a cop
there, and he DID pull them over. Later, walking home, the cop was still
there but the driver had left. He told me that he let the driver go
without a ticket because I yelled at them.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Presently we have two local hill roads closed for repairs because of the rains during the winter that tore the roads apart because of the drought. When those roads were open they would often be used as "short cuts" if traffic backed up on the freeways. Cars would drive like Isle of Man racers and without the slightest thought would pass on blind turns. And not just somewhat blind turns but turns that were more than 90 degrees around a cliff heavily shaded by trees. Every single time I was shocked that we didn't have major accidents on that road. I guess that shows that the reason we don't have a lot more people killed in auto accidents is merely the luck of the draw.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

You should have reported that cop to his superiors. When I had a serious run in with the local cops I reported it to the police chief, the mayor and the city council. Of course locally the only thing that matters is protecting illegal aliens who are felons.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-14 05:48, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 6:42:16 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
> wrote:
>> On 8/13/2017 12:16 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-08-12 23:45, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>>> The point that you, and others, seems to be missing was that
>>>> Holland started their bicycle transportation planning just
>>>> after WW I ended. In the 1920's bicycles were used in 80% of
>>>> the distance of all trips made. By the 1950's there were 400
>>>> bicycle parking facilities in Amsterdam - some 70,000 parking
>>>> spaces.
>>>>
>>>> The first comprehensive bicycle census in Amsterdam was held in
>>>> 1930. 250 intersections were monitored on a single day from
>>>> 6.30 am until 6.30 pm. On the section from Leidsestraat to
>>>> Leidseplein 30,000 cyclists passed during the period and some
>>>> 1100 of whom passed by between 8.45 and 9.00 am!
>>>>
>>>> Now compare that data with the U.S.
>>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHdbIhL0eso
>>>
>>> This is about 50mi from here. So yes, it is possible.
>>
>> <sigh> That's a video taken at a college campus that actively
>> dissuades the use of cars on campus.

They do not. I drove there by car a lot because I needed to schlepp a
compressor and other gear. Very easy car access, nice circular roads
that get you everywhere, plenty of parking.


>> ... Anyone can read about U.C.

>> Davis and its bike-related history.
>>

Don't read, go there and see for yourself.

Frank really doesn't have a clue about the Netherlands yet always voices
an opinion anyhow. I lived in Zuid Limburg Province and that is largely
rural plus hilly. Lots of bike paths, lots of cyclists. So far for
Frank's great theory.


> ... A really good local bike shop is giving it up after five

> years of trying because they just can't sell enough bikes or outsell
> the Internet on components.
>

That is strange. We had two new bike shops open up over the last five
yeas, in a village of around pop 16,000. At one of them I bought my MTB
in 2014. I could have bought it for $100 less online but I wanted to
support a local business. He also handled a few warranty claims I had
(which was bound to happen ...).

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-14 07:29, sms wrote:
> On 8/14/2017 5:48 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Frank - most major cities in the US have the population and the
>> density. A really good local bike shop is giving it up after five
>> years of trying because they just can't sell enough bikes or outsell
>> the Internet on components.
>
> I receive the publication "Bicycle Reseller." Any shop that tries to
> compete with "the Internet" solely on price is doomed. The number of
> good bicycles sold online is still very low. The real competition is
> getting people that are shopping at Toys R Us, Target, and Walmart to
> come to the bicycle shop. Tried to convince my neighbor that he should
> buy good kids bikes, even used, rather than bikes from Toys R Us, to no
> avail, he came back with two pieces of crap yesterday. I think that some
> shops could really do well if they'd accept some lower margins in kids
> bikes or offer a guaranteed trade-in value on the next size up, and sell
> the used kids bikes.
>

Bike shop owners told me that department store bikes are what keeps them
afloat at times. People buy them, thinking they scored the super deal.
Until something breaks or needs adjustment. At the big box store all
they get is a blank stare "Ahm, Sir, we aren't really equipped to handle
requests like that".

The other main stream of LBS revenue are mountain bikers. Regardless of
where they bought their bikes or what they cost they break stuff all the
time. I can attest to that. My MTB costs about $0.20/mile to operate
versus $0.10/mile for the road bike and this is with the DIY repair method.

> Wish we had a shop like Yellow Jersey, but just as the lease rates in
> Madison were too high, the lease rates in the Bay Area would never allow
> such a shop.
>

Up here in Sacramento they would but you'd first have to get in a more
biz-friendly legislature and that ain't gonna happen.

[AMuzi]

The world is full of tragedy already:
http://www.channel3000.com/news/campground-crash-hospitalizes-seven-driver-arrested/604103707

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 7:48:47 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>
> Up here in Sacramento they would but you'd first have to get in a more
> biz-friendly legislature and that ain't gonna happen.

The entire trouble in California is the excessive taxation. The Federal government is nearly as bad.

In California businesses are moving out so fast that in at least one location I've seen three businesses move in an out in the last year. People with money are leaving in droves. Even Elon Musk, the liberal hero, built his battery plant in Nevada because he couldn't possibly pass the "environmental" regulations in California. In most other places in this country it costs 1/3rd to 1/2 as much to live. On the house flipper channel my wife watches a 4000 foot house on two acres cost the same as a 2000 square foot house on a lot where you can look in the windows of your neighbor on every side. A house in Plymouth, MA, less than an hour from Boston twice the size of my home on a big lot is half the price.

You want business growth in the US - stop preventing it by excessive taxation. Here they have added an addition tax every year for the last three years to "fix the roads" and still haven't done anything more than patched them in the most egregious places.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-12 19:05, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 12:02:42 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I am a tad heavier but I have no problem lifting a bike and myself over
>> a regular cattle fence.
>
>
> A hundred and sixty pounds of downward pressure on a wire designed to
> resist in an entirely different direction, and to share the load with
> a bunch of other wires . . . well, it's extremely rude to do it even
> if the damage isn't immediately apparent.
>

Well, I don't step on fence wire.


> But the boundary-marker fences you describe don't sound like much more
> impediment than a curb.
>

Still you've got to lift the bike across. With a MTB you could simply
keep riding and flatten it but that would be rude.

It would have been smart on the part of the planners to notice that this
is the only reasonable path for cyclists and hikers to get from one town
into the other and leave a small slot. Unforntunately most planners
aren't very smart.


> Perhaps less than a railroad. I've been known to get to the Crazy Egg
> by taking a footpath from 100 N into their parking lot. Ballast is
> not easy to walk on.
>

That I don't understand. What ballast were you walking on?

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:05:04 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
Snipped

> The entire trouble in California is the excessive taxation. The Federal government is nearly as bad.
>

Snipped

> You want business growth in the US - stop preventing it by excessive taxation. Here they have added an addition tax every year for the last three years to "fix the roads" and still haven't done anything more than patched them in the most egregious places.

Got to pay for all that bicycling infrastructure planning and building somehow. Bicyclist aren't going to pay it just themselves. Thus others re forced to chi; in via taxes.

Cheers LOL

[Joerg]

I had one yesterday (Sunday) here:

https://goo.gl/maps/KD6agawVA662

Our light turned green when I saw a VW Passat approaching in the
opposing left turn lane. Looked like he ain't stopping so I didn't crank
the pedals. Sure enough he didn't and went around with screeching tires.
5mph more and he'd have flown into me and the car to my left. That
driver to my left also must have seen it coming because he didn't
accelerate despite the green light.

[Joerg]

We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10 (ten!)
times more than what we paid for a house of similar value in Europe. And
yes, I do expect something in return for that much money. Such as bike
paths.

[jbeattie]

That's it! Try triple that in Portland -- or more, if you have a nice house. What the f*** are you complaining about? You think that for four-measly-thousand you're going to get bike trails to your door. You're crazy! Plus property taxes don't pay for transportation infrastructure -- that is funded through transportation taxes, usually the gas tax with general fund input.

You really need to look at state/federal financing of bicycle facilities so you can at least whine about the right tax. I whine about taxes, too, but mine are way more than yours -- and I know where they go. Mostly to our old Soviet Union public employees retirement system.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-14 13:27, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 10:55:54 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-08-14 09:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>> On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:05:04 PM UTC-4,
>>> cycl...@gmail.com wrote: Snipped
>>>> The entire trouble in California is the excessive taxation.
>>>> The Federal government is nearly as bad.
>>>>
>>> Snipped
>>>> You want business growth in the US - stop preventing it by
>>>> excessive taxation. Here they have added an addition tax every
>>>> year for the last three years to "fix the roads" and still
>>>> haven't done anything more than patched them in the most
>>>> egregious places.
>>>
>>> Got to pay for all that bicycling infrastructure planning and
>>> building somehow. Bicyclist aren't going to pay it just
>>> themselves. Thus others re forced to chi; in via taxes.
>>>
>>
>> We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10
>> (ten!) times more than what we paid for a house of similar value in
>> Europe. And yes, I do expect something in return for that much
>> money. Such as bike paths.
>>
> That's it! Try triple that in Portland -- or more, if you have a nice

> house. ...


Time you guys had a taxpayer revolt like the Californian Proposition 13.
I know a guy in New York who had a decent academic-level income yet his
family was essentially taxed out of their home. There are reasons why
New York, Orgeon and lots of other places are not on my list of
potential retirement places.

What the f*** are you complaining about? You think that for
> four-measly-thousand you're going to get bike trails to your door.
> You're crazy! Plus property taxes don't pay for transportation
> infrastructure -- that is funded through transportation taxes,
> usually the gas tax with general fund input.
>

http://www.frontiergroup.org/reports/fg/who-pays-roads

Quote "Most walking and bicycling takes place on local streets and roads
that are primarily paid for through property taxes and other general
local taxes".

> You really need to look at state/federal financing of bicycle
> facilities so you can at least whine about the right tax. I whine
> about taxes, too, but mine are way more than yours -- and I know
> where they go. Mostly to our old Soviet Union public employees
> retirement system.
>

Same here, only worse. Many states de facto cut a blank check to unions
and now they are fleecing us.

[sms]

On 8/14/2017 9:05 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 7:48:47 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>
>> Up here in Sacramento they would but you'd first have to get in a more
>> biz-friendly legislature and that ain't gonna happen.
>
> The entire trouble in California is the excessive taxation. The Federal government is nearly as bad.

Yet jobs and businesses are being created in California at a very high
rate compared to other states.

<http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-business-climate-20160102-story.html>

<http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-california-econ-growth-20160722-snap-story.html>

Don't fall for the myths about businesses and people leaving. Sure
people move out of every state, but California has a very low rate of
out-migration, and those leaving are far exceeded by those coming in.

Businesses want to be in California, as do their employees, and this
isn't necessarily a good thing. It would be a lot better if the tech
companies could spread the wealth across the country.

[sms]

Well now that I actually am on the City Council, I might have more success!

[Frank Krygowski]

You complain a lot about America. Why not move back to Europe?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Since November I am not complaining too much :-)

When one has lived in several countries one can compare and try to bring
some of the better ideas to the new place. America has some major
upsides versus Europe such as better fostering of free enterprise (on
the federal level, not the Californian level)

[sms]

On 8/14/2017 10:55 AM, Joerg wrote:

> We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10 (ten!)
> times more than what we paid for a house of similar value in Europe. And
> yes, I do expect something in return for that much money. Such as bike
> paths.

Yet the net tax burden is less in the U.S.. And California property
taxes are less, as a percentage of the property value, than many other
states. California is 17th lowest.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-14 15:41, sms wrote:
> On 8/14/2017 10:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> We pay over $4k/year just in property taxes. That is about 10 (ten!)
>> times more than what we paid for a house of similar value in Europe.
>> And yes, I do expect something in return for that much money. Such as
>> bike paths.
>
> Yet the net tax burden is less in the U.S..

IME it was about the same after I moved. What was lower was the employee
health care contribution. After Obamacare began that went out the window.


> ... And California property

> taxes are less, as a percentage of the property value, than many other
> states. California is 17th lowest.

Because we had Prop 13 so then they socked us with other taxes and
"fees". Still, when you think about the fact that property taxes swallow
a large chunk of the total fixed income of someone living on social
security I believe such levels of property tax are un-American. It's not
right. This opinion is shared by many people in our neighborhood,
especially older people.

[Doug Landau]

> Because we had Prop 13 so then they socked us with other taxes and
> "fees". Still, when you think about the fact that property taxes swallow
> a large chunk of the total fixed income of someone living on social
> security I believe such levels of property tax are un-American. It's not
> right. This opinion is shared by many people in our neighborhood,
> especially older people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESzxGYDkwG8

[Joerg]

Easy to say for us who can move without much fuss. Not so easy for the
old grandparents whose health ain't so good anymore and who must stay
near where their kids live.

[John B.]

What is ignored is that average salaries in Europe are much lower then
in 'The land of opportunity".

As an example, the Web tells us that the *average* Mechanical
Engineering salary in France is 40,250 Euro, approximately US$47,350,
while In The Netherlands (the land of bicycles) it is 38,704 Euro,
about US$45,534.

In the Sacramento area of California it is $70,603.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 15:41:54 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

Years ago I was living in Riverside California while my parents lived
in a small town in New Hampshire. They visited us one year (long drive
:-) and I remember my father asking me what my property taxes were.
When I told him he sort of laughed and replied, "that is less then our
winter heating costs".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

So the only major upside of America you mention doesn't exist in
California? But you chose to live in California?

You're not sounding brilliant, Joerg.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Well, that's just wrong -- particularly for you. AFAIK, property taxes in California may pay a tiny part of certain transportation projects -- like mass transit, highway lighting or pot-hole filling. They're not being used to build bike paths. Look at your tax bill and see if there are any bonds for bicycle infrastructure. And read this: http://www.calbike.org/funding_sources After Prop 13, there are few property tax dollars for transportation projects. Maybe SMS can weigh in on this. But I do know you pay practically nothing for property tax. I probably paid that much 20 years ago for a dinger house in a sketchy part of town.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

Given that the Virgin Group (net worth 5 - 5.5 billion Sterling,
estimated in 2014) started with Richard Branson selling bootleg
records out of the trunk of his car, it doesn't sound like a business
is too difficult to get going in Europe.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

To a large extent it doesn't.


>> ... But you chose to live in California?
>>

No. My employer chose that. IWe would like to move out of state but
moving is such a hassle. One of the main things holding us back is our
engagement in church and in the community. We are not special but, for
example, it would be hard to find someone else willing to be with
Alzheimer's patient (without getting nightmares after every time) and
also has certified therapy dogs for this sort of service.

>> You're not sounding brilliant, Joerg.
>

You are the master of premature conclusions. Judging without knowing the
facts.

> Given that the Virgin Group (net worth 5 - 5.5 billion Sterling,
> estimated in 2014) started with Richard Branson selling bootleg
> records out of the trunk of his car, it doesn't sound like a business
> is too difficult to get going in Europe.

Look at where he does most of his business though.

[Joerg]

Quote from your link "Most of that is generated by your city or county"

So how do they get it? Out of thin air? Print it cladestinely?

Local taxes have two major sources, property taxes and sales taxes. We
contribute to both and expect something for that.


> ... After Prop 13, there

> are few property tax dollars for transportation projects. Maybe SMS
> can weigh in on this. But I do know you pay practically nothing for
> property tax. I probably paid that much 20 years ago for a dinger
> house in a sketchy part of town.
>

Why did you do that?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Businesses want to be in California until they put up with it. The "growth" really doesn't exist. It's mostly from Google, Facebook and the like. There are start-ups in Silicon Valley that demand the most rediculous things from their employees and no one will work for them and they fail.

Tesla called me up and did they want someone who could competently do a job they needed? No - they wanted someone that would worship the idea of Tesla. No company that does these sorts of things can exist for long. I don't see how Tesla can survive without government grants and they sure as hell aren't going to get them by calling Trump names.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The ONLY way they can get away with this is because of the tremendous tax base. But that ain't going to work for long with the people with money leaving California.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

As an EE with experience I wouldn't work for less than $120,000 and my last job before my injury was a quarter of a million. But I also was managing a team of 5 engineers. Before that I was a department manager and did half of the design and programming for the teams and consulted with NASA and did some boards for the International Space Station. Wish I could remember any of that instead of having to read it off of my resume. As for the money I was making I actually had the pay stubs.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Do you think you are Frank?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 12:15:36 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 11:54:40 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On 2017-08-12 07:24, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 5:45:38 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 8/11/2017 7:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 8/11/2017 8:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 8/11/2017 5:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2017-08-11 15:05, sms wrote:
> >>>>>>> <https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/170808-5B-Alta-Level-of-Traffic-Stress-Knowles.pdf>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >This was one of the presentations at the Silicon Valley
> >>>>>>> Bicycle Coalition Bike Summit.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Slide 6 is especially telling. No surprise that the U.S.
> >>>>>>> has the lowest number of bicycle travel in terms of
> >>>>>>> distance, and the highest death rate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> No surprise to me whatsoever. I lived in three of those
> >>>>>> countries, Germany, Netherlands and US and can see why the
> >>>>>> numbers on slide 6 are what they are.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> When I had to ride from where I lived in the Netherlands
> >>>>>> (Vaals) to Maastricht I could pretty much set my 12-speed
> >>>>>> bike on the bike path, put it in 12th gear and hammer those
> >>>>>> 20 miles. I did the same distance here (Cameron Park to
> >>>>>> Folsom) yesterday for an errand. Aside from mixing in with
> >>>>>> fast traffic at times which some potentially interested
> >>>>>> cyclists don't like I also had to hack it across a dirt field
> >>>>>> for half a mile, including crossing a muddy creek and lifting
> >>>>>> the bike over some low fences. Hardly anyone would be willing
> >>>>>> to do the latter. On the way back it was mostly along a
> >>>>>> county road with 55mph traffic, ok but not exactly fun.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But there's no end to that argument.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> People who live at a bus stop and work at another think buses
> >>>>> are wonderful. But resources are finite and so for some people
> >>>>> they are merely inconvenient but for most people buses are not
> >>>>> useful in any way.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have a couple friends who do like buses. I rode yesterday with
> >>>> a guy who likes to use the bus to get out toward a distant bike
> >>>> trail. But when we first moved to town and had just one car, I
> >>>> looked into riding a bus the seven or so miles to work. It would
> >>>> have taken far longer than just biking the whole way.
> >>>>
> >>>> But for most people, I think this Onion article is accurate:
> >>>> http://www.theonion.com/article/report-98-percent-of-us-commuters-favor-public-tra-1434
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >"Take the bus. I'll be glad you did." ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Yes, that's one of their all-time best.
> >>>
> >>> My point, though, is that a paved kiddie path from every residence
> >>> to every destination is ridiculous.
> >>
> >> And my point is that IF you have separate bicycle facilities like
> >> that car drivers again believe you don't belong on their roads.
> >>
> >
> >My experience is that some of them believe that anyhow regardlesss of
> >whether there is a bike path or not. Those are the ones deliberately
> >passing closely or speeding up to the cyclist and the lean on the horn.
>
> Out of curiosity, how many is that?
>
> Here, and I am aware that it a totally different culture and different
> laws, I can't even remember when anyone seemed to deliberately pass
> closely or leaned on the horn.
>
> Not to say that people haven't passed me closely but no closer then
> they did the car in front of me, and this close passing is always in
> very heavy traffic at an almost crawling speed. And yes people
> occasionally blow the horn but it is more of a "I see you" sort of
> beep.
>
> Is traffic in the U.S. really as bad as you portray?

A couple of blocks from my home is a store. A bike lane runs along the curb and then ends abruptly a hundred feet from the intersection. This is a right turn must turn right lane plus there are four driveways in and out of the shopping center.

So I ride in the middle lane which ends up going straight, instead of in the dangerous bike lane. Almost every time I do that I have people whom I would BLOCK if I were in the bike lane screaming at me to get in the bike lane.

You have to picture this - people are driving in the #2 lane and at the last second pulling into the #3 lane simply to give me grief. And since this is only a couple of blocks from my house I go this way almost every ride.

Going in the opposite direction is almost the same situation. The #2 lane is a right turn only and people will drive in that with a perfectly clear #1 lane just to pass close to me. Again - EVERY TIME that I go out with only rare exceptions. They will do this even when you can look ahead and see a heavy truck blocking part of the right lane.

So don't use the excuse that this doesn't happen too frequently. Every ride I go on at lease once I get a close pass of someone yelling at me to get out of the way. And even when I'm in a bike lane - people driving and the road bending right will NOT stay in their lane - they will pull almost to the curb crossing completely over the bike lane.

The bike lanes are directly adjacent to the parking lane and an SUV or a two door door will totally cover the bike lane and traffic will speed up in order to force you to stop instead of allowing you to go around the blockage.

Sunday on two occasions cars almost turned left into me because they misjudged my speed. And I was wearing a dayglow green jacket.

None of Joerg's complaints are unfounded. Because I refuse to be pushed off of a public road doesn't mean that these sorts of things do not frighten the overwhelming majority of people that could be bike riders.

I find it offensive to put up with these things every ride and have people on this group pretend that it's all in my or Joerg's head. The only thing I can think is that people that do not see this are either blind or stupid.

[Doug Landau]

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 5:21:44 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

How much is it in phuket, bang-kok, and manila?

[Frank Krygowski]

You might consider the possibility that others do not experience the
horrors that you do. That might be true for a variety of reasons.

I bike commuted 2.6 miles each way to one job for three years, then 7
miles each way to another job for over 30 years. I experienced almost
none of those problems.

Now my area is not your area. I generally choose my routes to avoid the
busiest streets, although sometimes there are no alternatives. In those
cases I ride the busy streets, but still without horror stories.

To get to any shopping west of my home, I pretty much have to ride at
least some distance on a road that almost all local cyclists avoid. Five
lanes counting the bi-directional turn lane, over 35,000 vehicles per
day, tons of shopping plazas etc. along its route, etc. It's certainly
not a quiet, scenic ride, and even a lot of motorists hate driving it.
Just based on aesthetics I often use alternate routes.

But maybe five years ago I consulted with a novice middle aged cyclist
who was going to do an epic tour, Ohio to Florida in response to a
life-changing event. After coaching him for a month or so on equipment
and training, I rode out with him on the first 15 miles of his journey.

This novice left heading west on that very same 35,000 car per day road.
He planted himself dead center in the right lane, sitting very upright
on his comfort bike, and rode smiling down the road. He was less nervous
than I was! And the response from drivers? They slowed when necessary,
changed lanes to pass, never once honked or shouted or gestured. And
BTW, the guy made it to Florida with no troubles at all.

I'll also mention, as Warm Showers hosts, we've been visited by many
touring cyclists. Many have arrived and some have left via that same
busy road. Not one has ever complained about it.

I have ridden roads that were narrow-laned hell holes of fast, impatient
and rude drivers. But IME those roads are a minority in America. If I
lived in a place where those were the norm, I'd look into moving.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

That's fair. Traffic can be miserable, but as a practical matter, you're not going to get separate bike paths everywhere. You're going to have to get on the road sometime, even in Amsterdam. So, that means cars and bikes have to learn the rules -- as you know. Frank has a point about education, and maybe he also has balls of steel and can ride anywhere without fear. Not me. There are places where I say "f*** that!" and take a side path or some other less convenient route. Sometimes it's not about fear and more about being unpleasant. OTOH, some bike paths are a PITA, and I prefer the road which others find "scary." Some people have an amazingly low threshold for scary.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 8/15/2017 8:20 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

> I find it offensive to put up with these things every ride and have people on this group pretend that it's all in my or Joerg's head. The only thing I can think is that people that do not see this are either blind or stupid.

They are neither. They have an agenda to promote, and pretending that
it's all in your head is essential to promoting that agenda.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[John B.]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:05:08 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Today, yes.

The point though was that Branson started a business selling bootleg
records from the trunk of his car and built it into a billion dollar
business. Although you argue that there is so much to impede a startup
business in Europe.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:09:32 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Assuming that you are a normal, intelligent person the question might
arise as to why you immigrated almost half way round the world to
settle in a state with, perhaps the highest tax burden in the U.S.,
and now complain about it?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

The Tourist Authority of Thailand dreamed up the nickname "The Land of
Smiles" as an indication of how friendly the people are here. I can
only assume that your country is named after an orifice in the other
end of the body.

Given that you are, from your writings, no longer employed one can
only speculate on why you don't move. Or is the entire country that
way?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Much, much lower. On the other hand, there is no property tax, for a
personal residence, in Thailand. Whether Phuket or Bangkok, which, of
course, was the subject being discussed.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

"The land of puckers"? "The land of squirts"?

> Given that you are, from your writings, no longer employed one can
> only speculate on why you don't move. Or is the entire country that
> way?
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.
>

--

[Joy Beeson]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 09:30:49 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

> That I don't understand. What ballast were you walking on?

The ballast that holds the ties in place. It's coarser than gravel,
more uniform in size, and doesn't contain any fines. Around here, the
ballast extends for a considerable distance to each side of the
tracks.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 11:38:27 PM UTC-4, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 09:30:49 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
> > That I don't understand. What ballast were you walking on?
>
> The ballast that holds the ties in place. It's coarser than gravel,
> more uniform in size, and doesn't contain any fines. Around here, the
> ballast extends for a considerable distance to each side of the
> tracks.

In other words, it's the super-coarse gravel that holds up railroad tracks. In
my area, the rocks are almost the size of baseballs. Amazingly, I once saw
two guys riding it on road bikes or, more likely, "gravel bikes." They didn't
look like they were having much fun, though.

I've ridden a mountain bike on it, by dropping my air pressure to maybe 20 psi.
Ugly stuff, unless you're riding inside the train.

- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-15 16:49, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:05:08 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-08-14 23:15, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>> Given that the Virgin Group (net worth 5 - 5.5 billion Sterling,
>>> estimated in 2014) started with Richard Branson selling bootleg
>>> records out of the trunk of his car, it doesn't sound like a business
>>> is too difficult to get going in Europe.
>>
>>
>> Look at where he does most of his business though.
>
> Today, yes.
>
> The point though was that Branson started a business selling bootleg
> records from the trunk of his car and built it into a billion dollar
> business. Although you argue that there is so much to impede a startup
> business in Europe.

Selling bootleg records is illegal in Britain and almost anywhere else
if that hasn't occurred to you yet. You can start a "business" that way
in any country as long as they don't arrest you.

I meant starting the honest way. I did, in Europe. And in the US.