Good alternative to Ultima Replenisher electrolyte?

[Joerg]

For whatever reason the price for Ultima Replenisher (90-serving
canisters) got jacked up, big time. We used to pay around $25 in bulk,
now it's around $40 with shipping. We go through a lot.

Are there alternatives of comparable quality but more reasonably priced?
Orange flavor would be great but doesn't matter much, as long as it's
not any funky or excessively sweet flavor. No artificial sweeteners.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Robert Latest]

Joerg wrote:
> For whatever reason the price for Ultima Replenisher (90-serving
> canisters) got jacked up, big time. We used to pay around $25 in bulk,
> now it's around $40 with shipping. We go through a lot.
>
> Are there alternatives of comparable quality but more reasonably priced?

Yes. Half a teaspoon of table salt per liter. Add two or three of those
fizzy nutrition supplement tablets for additional minerals to taste. Just
read the ingredients on the original powder to find a long list of
benign non-reasons to buy it.

Really, I thought you were a guy who likes to go the extra mile for some
weird homebrew method of saving money (using used interdental brushes rather
than new pipe cleaners for chain maintenance, for instance).

robert

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-25 12:03, Robert Latest wrote:
> Joerg wrote:
>> For whatever reason the price for Ultima Replenisher (90-serving
>> canisters) got jacked up, big time. We used to pay around $25 in bulk,
>> now it's around $40 with shipping. We go through a lot.
>>
>> Are there alternatives of comparable quality but more reasonably priced?
>
> Yes. Half a teaspoon of table salt per liter. Add two or three of those
> fizzy nutrition supplement tablets for additional minerals to taste.

Which ones are those?


> ... Just

> read the ingredients on the original powder to find a long list of
> benign non-reasons to buy it.
>

I did that but (so far) haven't found anything that has all of this:

http://urpullzone.smartdecision.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/UltimaReplenisher-Orange-NF-SupplementFacts.jpg

Also, I am not a biologist or nutrition expert who can say which of
these are expendable and which percentages really matter. What I am
looking for is a powder that has most or all of this, or whatever is
important. Adding salt and other such simple ingredients is easy.
Finding a source of selenium or molybdenum might be more challenging.

> Really, I thought you were a guy who likes to go the extra mile for some
> weird homebrew method of saving money (using used interdental brushes rather
> than new pipe cleaners for chain maintenance, for instance).
>

Brewing a Pale Ale as I am writing here. This morning it was a Koelsch
(Cologne style beer).

[somebody]

On 25 Sep 2017 19:03:42 GMT, Robert Latest <bobl...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Joerg wrote:
>> For whatever reason the price for Ultima Replenisher (90-serving
>> canisters) got jacked up, big time. We used to pay around $25 in bulk,
>> now it's around $40 with shipping. We go through a lot.
>>
>> Are there alternatives of comparable quality but more reasonably priced?
>
>Yes. Half a teaspoon of table salt per liter. Add two or three of those
>fizzy nutrition supplement tablets for additional minerals to taste. Just
>read the ingredients on the original powder to find a long list of
>benign non-reasons to buy it.

I use a potassium-based salt substitute. Cheap and it works.

[Joerg]

Meaning it reliably prevents cramps and bonks? IOW the potassium is the
only ingredient in those drinks that a longhaul cyclist really needs? I
didn't know that but it sure would be nice.

[jbeattie]

No, you bonk because you're out of glycogen and not electrolytes. Drink more beer. Take a Snickers bar. Keep up your energy so you can ride with the mountain lions. https://tinyurl.com/ya8vqq55

-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I agree but you still have to maintain your electrolytes. Just drink a Red Bull and that will be taken care of.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-26 10:26, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 9:25:00 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 7:31:49 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-09-26 01:58, somebody wrote:
>>>> On 25 Sep 2017 19:03:42 GMT, Robert Latest
>>>> <bobl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>>> For whatever reason the price for Ultima Replenisher
>>>>>> (90-serving canisters) got jacked up, big time. We used to
>>>>>> pay around $25 in bulk, now it's around $40 with shipping.
>>>>>> We go through a lot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are there alternatives of comparable quality but more
>>>>>> reasonably priced?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. Half a teaspoon of table salt per liter. Add two or
>>>>> three of those fizzy nutrition supplement tablets for
>>>>> additional minerals to taste. Just read the ingredients on
>>>>> the original powder to find a long list of benign non-reasons
>>>>> to buy it.
>>>>
>>>> I use a potassium-based salt substitute. Cheap and it works.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Meaning it reliably prevents cramps and bonks? IOW the potassium
>>> is the only ingredient in those drinks that a longhaul cyclist
>>> really needs? I didn't know that but it sure would be nice.
>>
>> No, you bonk because you're out of glycogen and not electrolytes.

>> Drink more beer. ...


Hence I repurposed my old office thermos and use it to carry homemade
IPA along on some long trips in the boonies where there are no pubs. No
Snickers bars though, my wife makes homemade bars with the good stuff in
there. Lots of nuts and bacon bits, among many other things.

So far I bonked only once, way back after I started riding again.

Does anyone know this stuff?

https://www.vitamonk.com/products/fortilyte-electrolyte-formula

The price is right but unfortunately only pills. A bit low in magnesium
but I take those every day already because of back issues.


>> ... Take a Snickers bar. Keep up your energy so you

>> can ride with the mountain lions. https://tinyurl.com/ya8vqq55
>

Cool. The only one we saw live didn't have a bike. But it took a
neighbor's dog :-(

> I agree but you still have to maintain your electrolytes. Just drink
> a Red Bull and that will be taken care of.
>

I prefer IPA :-)

[Frank Krygowski]

I've done that for years on long and strenuous (for me) rides,
especially in the heat. I do think it helps.

But lately I've been plagued with cramps, either toward the end or hours
after such a ride. A few days ago, a nurse told me it sounded like a
potassium deficiency. I plan to try eating some high potassium foods for
a bit to see if it helps.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Take more of that supplement?


> ... I plan to try eating some high potassium foods for

> a bit to see if it helps.
>

My sister says bananas are great. But I guess not when mountain bike
riding in hot weather. Plus you'll have to pack out the peels. And then
old Silver Hoof wants my bananas.

I wonder how much potassium a body needs when riding at a slightly
elevated heart rate for 4h. Ultima Replenisher has 250mg per serving.
Seems a lot but they say it's only 7% of daily recommened. Other
electrolyte powders contain less than 100mg per serving.

[Doug Landau]

You do NOT have to pack out the peels. Try it sometime and you will see.

[Joerg]

You eat the peels? In our area it is very frowned upon by rangers to
chuck them into the bush.

[sms]

On 9/24/2017 10:02 AM, Joerg wrote:
> For whatever reason the price for Ultima Replenisher (90-serving
> canisters) got jacked up, big time. We used to pay around $25 in bulk,
> now it's around $40 with shipping. We go through a lot.
>
> Are there alternatives of comparable quality but more reasonably priced?
> Orange flavor would be great but doesn't matter much, as long as it's
> not any funky or excessively sweet flavor. No artificial sweeteners.

Buy 25kg of coconut water powder for $395. Enough for 1250 bicycle water
bottle fills, at 20 grams per bottle. About 32 cents per bottle.

[Doug Landau]

So what? If those guys didn't have deep-seated need to frown on shit, they wouldn't have become rangers in the first place. Means nothing.

[Joerg]

Until one of them hands you a ticket for littering which can set you
back several hundred Dollars. I'd applaud the ranger for that.

I never throw anything away in the wilderness or elsewhere. Ever. I find
such behavior very anti-social. In fact, on singletrack I often pack out
stuff that others tossed.

We have enough homeless as it is who do this. They throw whatever they
don't need into the bushes. Disgusting. Unfortunately careless MTB
riders do that as well and it is likely the reason why some trails are
closed for us.

[Doug Landau]

Fortunately he is rarely there when you take the last bite, and when he is, you can refrain.

> I never throw anything away in the wilderness or elsewhere. Ever. I find
> such behavior very anti-social. In fact, on singletrack I often pack out
> stuff that others tossed.

A banana peel is plant material and will return to being soil soon enough.

> We have enough homeless as it is who do this. They throw whatever they
> don't need into the bushes. Disgusting. Unfortunately careless MTB
> riders do that as well and it is likely the reason why some trails are
> closed for us.

The problem of, and problems associated with, human poverty is neither here nor there.

None of this is based upon logic. It is Puritanism.

[sms]

On 9/26/2017 2:10 PM, Doug Landau wrote:

<snip>

> A banana peel is plant material and will return to being soil soon enough.

It will not. Nor will orange peels. Don't get caught doing this by a
park ranger or police officer. It's a hefty fine.

[Joerg]

As it should be. I find it said that some people think it's ok to litter.

[Doug Landau]

Some think they're good for the soil:
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/banana-peels-orange-peels-garden-31257.html

[John B.]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 11:05:51 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

I think the mention of "pink Himalayan Salt" might just be a giveaway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himalayan_salt
"Himalayan salt is rock salt or halite from the Punjab region of
Pakistan. No scientific evidence has been provided to prove that
Himalayan salt has substantial benefits compared to common salt, and
such claims should be treated as pseudoscience."

>The price is right but unfortunately only pills. A bit low in magnesium
>but I take those every day already because of back issues.
>
>
>>> ... Take a Snickers bar. Keep up your energy so you
>>> can ride with the mountain lions. https://tinyurl.com/ya8vqq55
>>
>
>Cool. The only one we saw live didn't have a bike. But it took a
>neighbor's dog :-(
>
>
>> I agree but you still have to maintain your electrolytes. Just drink
>> a Red Bull and that will be taken care of.
>>
>
>I prefer IPA :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Maybe _your_ soil.
People who manage public lands are more excited about
arranging chronic very large fires and shooting the owls
that outbreed their preferred owls:

http://www.npr.org/2014/01/15/262735123/to-save-threatened-owl-another-species-is-shot

Fortunately we have public experts who can disabuse the
public of their innate common sense.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/26/2017 9:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/26/2017 7:24 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 3:16:06 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
>>> On 9/26/2017 2:10 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> A banana peel is plant material and will return to being soil soon
>>>> enough.
>>>
>>> It will not. Nor will orange peels. Don't get caught doing this by a
>>> park ranger or police officer. It's a hefty fine.
>>
>> Some think they're good for the soil:
>> http://homeguides.sfgate.com/banana-peels-orange-peels-garden-31257.html
>>
>
> Maybe _your_ soil.
> People who manage public lands are more excited about arranging chronic
> very large fires and shooting the owls that outbreed their preferred owls:
>
> http://www.npr.org/2014/01/15/262735123/to-save-threatened-owl-another-species-is-shot

That's hardly a unique situation. People who want to preserve bluebird
populations do all they can to eliminate or discourage house sparrows.
The two species are incompatible, and house sparrows are non-natives
introduced through human mistakes.

There are similar examples regarding mollusks, fish, amphibians,
reptiles and mammals, not to mention the plant world. We've screwed
things up fairly thoroughly in many places.

I suppose some would say none of it matters, that we should be happy
with a continent-wide monoculture, but I disagree.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joy Beeson]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 10:02:35 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

> Are there alternatives of comparable quality but more reasonably priced?

I use diluted orange juice.

Usually one tablespoon of juice per water bottle.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Joerg]

Yeah, "salt kharma" sounds a bit voodoo. I am only after the
electrolytes though but since this only clocks in at 65mg/serving I'll
probably swallow the cost increase and stay with Ultima. Unless someone
knows a better deal.

[...]

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-26 19:07, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 10:02:35 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Are there alternatives of comparable quality but more reasonably priced?
>
> I use diluted orange juice.
>
> Usually one tablespoon of juice per water bottle.
>

It is a good source of potassium but difficult to store. Rots easy.

http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/much-potassium-6-ounces-orange-juice-apple-juice-6666.html

The powder seems to have no potassium left, no idea what happens to it
in the process:

https://www.amazon.com/Augason-Farms-Orange-Delight-Drink/dp/B00LBGNW9I

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 3:16:06 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 3:16:06 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:

Do you know that I have an orange tree and a lemon tree in my backyard so I have to clean up rotten orange and lemon peels all the time and sweep them under the tree to fertilize the tree? That bananas have to be thrown away all the time because they rot in the supermarket? There is NO fruit that will not rot since THAT is the way they release their seeds.

What exactly is this "It will not"?

So not only do we have economists here but farmers as well. Growing tomatoes in your back yard every year indeed!

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Hello Joy, there is more to it than simply replacing electrolytes. I almost had heat prostration on the 3rd by simply drinking Red Bull. It provided sufficient electrolytes but insufficient calories to burn while riding.

When undergoing extreme exercise your digestive processes are impaired and you should take in simple sugars and electrolytes.

I knew this but the length of the ride sort of developed as I was riding. Normally a 72 mile ride wouldn't have nearly killed me but the day started overcast and cool and then after I was beyond the point of no return it got up over 90 with no shade. And the neighborhoods I was riding through were not the sorts where you could leave your bike to go into a store. The one place I did it a guy came directly over to my bike until he saw me on the other side of the glass door and having 8" on him.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-27 08:28, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 8:07:20 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson
> wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 10:02:35 -0700, Joerg
>> <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Are there alternatives of comparable quality but more reasonably
>>> priced?
>>
>> I use diluted orange juice.
>>
>> Usually one tablespoon of juice per water bottle.
>>
>> -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at comcast dot net
>> http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
>
> Hello Joy, there is more to it than simply replacing electrolytes. I
> almost had heat prostration on the 3rd by simply drinking Red Bull.
> It provided sufficient electrolytes but insufficient calories to burn
> while riding.
>
> When undergoing extreme exercise your digestive processes are
> impaired and you should take in simple sugars and electrolytes.
>
> I knew this but the length of the ride sort of developed as I was
> riding. Normally a 72 mile ride wouldn't have nearly killed me but
> the day started overcast and cool and then after I was beyond the
> point of no return it got up over 90 with no shade.

100F+ and no shade is normal here in summer. Scientists say that beer
flushed out glucose and supposedly makes things worse but I can't
confirm that. After a nice pint of Double-IPA, Belgian Tripel or Stout I
feel like having more climb energy than before. Though that burns off
pretty quickly.


> ... And the

> neighborhoods I was riding through were not the sorts where you could
> leave your bike to go into a store. The one place I did it a guy came
> directly over to my bike until he saw me on the other side of the
> glass door and having 8" on him.
>

That is why I do not patronize stores that do not let me take my bike
inside.

[Doug Landau]

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 3:16:06 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:

Remember Jobst on presta stem locknuts and caps: "The proper place for these is by the side of the road."

[cycl...@gmail.com]

When I return from a hard ride and have a Belgian Ale I recover quite rapidly.

In the bay area you get what you get.

[Doug Landau]

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 4:38:56 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-09-26 15:16, sms wrote:
> > On 9/26/2017 2:10 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> A banana peel is plant material and will return to being soil soon
> >> enough.
> >
> > It will not. Nor will orange peels. Don't get caught doing this by a
> > park ranger or police officer. It's a hefty fine.
>
>
> As it should be. I find it said that some people think it's ok to litter.

How about when you ride the road? Would you have us believe that you have never witnessed your banana peel land on someone's leaf-pile, or at the foot of a garbage can brought out to the street, or heard it wad up against the rear window of a parked pickup truck?

[Joerg]

As I wrote earlier I do not chuck my banana peels or anything else for
that matter into the environment and I find people who do so anti-social.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-27 13:43, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 10:40:29 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-09-27 08:28, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

... And the
>>> neighborhoods I was riding through were not the sorts where you could
>>> leave your bike to go into a store. The one place I did it a guy came
>>> directly over to my bike until he saw me on the other side of the
>>> glass door and having 8" on him.
>>>
>>
>> That is why I do not patronize stores that do not let me take my bike
>> inside.
>
> When I return from a hard ride and have a Belgian Ale I recover quite rapidly.
>
> In the bay area you get what you get.
>

Move to a nicer area. During yesterday's ride I parked my MTB here and
"re-hydrated":

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50ee6010e4b029771ee32bf5/t/57190d5b746fb97d675c371b/1461259703148/mraz-brewing-tasting-room?format=750w

Also discovered a new route into the valley away from fast motor
vehuicle traffic but that one requires MTB use.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

And I find that dumping material that bio-disintegrates to be part of nature and haven't any problems with it. But I personally do not carry such things with me like an orange or a banana.

But sitting even in coffee shops I find that virtually everyone leaves their crap for someone to clean up while I always put trash in the trash can and put the dishes into the dirty dish container. I have never been able to break anyone of the habit of simply walking off even when they F-ing walk past the trash can on their way to their bikes.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Believe me, if I didn't have an older brother to cart around to doctors and my wife didn't have grandchildren to baby sit I'd be living in Phoenix right not among people who have like minds. Though my cop friend can't drink because of his heart problem. He used strict diet and total abstinence to stop taking medication and a Federal Investigator has a whole lot of will-power.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-28 07:39, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 7:32:47 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-09-27 15:12, Doug Landau wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 4:38:56 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-09-26 15:16, sms wrote:
>>>>> On 9/26/2017 2:10 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> A banana peel is plant material and will return to being
>>>>>> soil soon enough.
>>>>>
>>>>> It will not. Nor will orange peels. Don't get caught doing
>>>>> this by a park ranger or police officer. It's a hefty fine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As it should be. I find it said that some people think it's ok
>>>> to litter.
>>>
>>> How about when you ride the road? Would you have us believe that
>>> you have never witnessed your banana peel land on someone's
>>> leaf-pile, or at the foot of a garbage can brought out to the
>>> street, or heard it wad up against the rear window of a parked
>>> pickup truck?
>>>
>>
>> As I wrote earlier I do not chuck my banana peels or anything else
>> for that matter into the environment and I find people who do so
>> anti-social.
>
> And I find that dumping material that bio-disintegrates to be part of
> nature and haven't any problems with it.

I do have a problem with that:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/sep/24/bananas-litter-hikers-mountains-scotland

Also, it's not a native plant in this area and could be harmful to some
wildlife.


> ... But I personally do not

> carry such things with me like an orange or a banana.
>

I don't either but in case I do I make sure I pack out everything I take
with me. 100%.

> But sitting even in coffee shops I find that virtually everyone
> leaves their crap for someone to clean up while I always put trash in
> the trash can and put the dishes into the dirty dish container. I
> have never been able to break anyone of the habit of simply walking
> off even when they F-ing walk past the trash can on their way to
> their bikes.
>

Beats me why people do that. I find it disrespectful. Even when sitting
at a table in a pub instead of at the bar I always bring the glass back
to the bar. The other riders do the same.

[AMuzi]

On 9/28/2017 9:39 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 7:32:47 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-09-27 15:12, Doug Landau wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 4:38:56 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-09-26 15:16, sms wrote:
>>>>> On 9/26/2017 2:10 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>

-more snip-

> And I find that dumping material that bio-disintegrates
> to be part of nature and haven't any problems with it.

OK in theory I suppose but where do you draw the line?
Half a hamburger? Fish heads? Dog poop?

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-28 12:20, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/28/2017 9:39 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 7:32:47 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-09-27 15:12, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 4:38:56 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-09-26 15:16, sms wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/26/2017 2:10 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
> -more snip-
>> And I find that dumping material that bio-disintegrates
>> to be part of nature and haven't any problems with it.
>
> OK in theory I suppose but where do you draw the line?
> Half a hamburger? Fish heads? Dog poop?

And also, where? The grossest thing is human poop right on the
singletrack. I was able to dodge it just in time. Yuck. Some people are
unfit to live within a society.

[AMuzi]

I just hate that and the usual, "Hey dude it's organic."

[Joerg]

Unfortunately a lot of cyclists have other behavior issues as well.
Sunday I was riding along a MUP and saw a woman and her small dog. She
looked a bit shaken so I stopped and inquired. Turns out the two
cyclists who had come the other way at high speed had yelled at her to
get out of the way. "So now I and my dog have to walk on the dirt". I
told her she doesn't have to do that, it's also her path, to ignore such
cyclists and that they were probably jerks.

Car drivers aren't far behind. Yesterday during a MTB ride I was walking
around in the lanes of a county road, signaling a driver to slow down.
He honked and floored it. A 2nd driver stopped and inquired, as is
appropriate. I was picking up two dozen thick lag screws up to 4" long
that were strewn across both lanes. Must have dropped off a truck. It
was a curve and those could have even caused a car driver to lose
control because hitting so much hardware can be like entering a sheet of
ice. Why are some people so nuts?

I don't think I'll have to buy lag screws anytime soon :-)

[Sepp Ruf]

AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/28/2017 9:39 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 7:32:47 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-09-27 15:12, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 4:38:56 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-09-26 15:16, sms wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/26/2017 2:10 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
> -more snip-
>> And I find that dumping material that bio-disintegrates
>> to be part of nature and haven't any problems with it.
>
> OK in theory I suppose but where do you draw the line?
> Half a hamburger? Fish heads? Dog poop?

To avoid killing children (or dogs,) better don't drop anything:
<https://sherbrooktimes.com/pesticide-a-pre-teen-dies-after-eating-a-tangerine/3443>

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I looked up these decomposing times on the internet and they are pure crap. I have an orange tree in my backyard. Within TWO DAYS an orange is rotten and within a week it is black and drying. If I kick it off of the pavement into the grass it is gone so rapidly that I don't get a pile of them there. And you should know how fast orange trees drop fruit one they get ripe. I have to sweep this stuff away every single day for several months.

They are telling you that a banana skin takes more time to decompose than a wool sock. Think about that. If you have ever been around sheep you'd know that they shed everywhere. You don't see large masses of wool around.

I am really getting tired of "environmentalists" publishing this sort of thing. Try putting one of those thin plastic bags out in the sun for a month. We're being told that it takes a thousand years but a monofilament fishing line only takes 600 years. While I can believe the monofilament line time, the plastic bag is pure fantasy.

That "floating plastic bag island" in the middle of the Pacific turns out to be one particle of plastic per square meter. Not this floating mass of bags as they are trying to make you picture. There are now bacteria that eat this plastic.

I was one of the first environmentalists until I saw what they were doing. Now I follow good sense and forget these idiots. Two years for a banana skin to decompose indeed.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 12:20:05 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/28/2017 9:39 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 7:32:47 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> >> On 2017-09-27 15:12, Doug Landau wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 4:38:56 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> >>>> On 2017-09-26 15:16, sms wrote:
> >>>>> On 9/26/2017 2:10 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <snip>
> -more snip-
> > And I find that dumping material that bio-disintegrates
> > to be part of nature and haven't any problems with it.
>
> OK in theory I suppose but where do you draw the line?
> Half a hamburger? Fish heads? Dog poop?

Andrew, when you're out in the woods and have to go what do you do? Does a bear shit in the woods? If so should you tell him it isn't good environmentalism?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Well, I think I've said it before but: I used to clear rocks and fallen branches and even small trees off of the mountain roads. But then I realized that I was making it easier for those jerks to speed and play baby Mario Andretti. So I stopped doing it. To hell with them.

Last Sunday I was riding over the local hill road that finally reopened after slides from last winter's rains. I was about two feet from the right side of the road and as I swerved over a couple of inches to miss a pothole I was damn near hit by one of those modern vans that are box-like. It hadn't made a sound approaching and instead of taking the left lane which was clear far into the distance the jackass was going to clear me by inches. Well that is exactly what he or she did. When they swerved to clear me their mirror just missed me and the side of the car almost touched.

I won't do anything to help these fools.

[AMuzi]

I thought we were talking about the middle of the lane or a
Joerg mountain-lion-infested nature trail.

[Frank Krygowski]

Or perhaps in someone's yard.

http://www.mlive.com/news/us-world/index.ssf/2017/09/police_searching_for_woman_cau.html


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/28/2017 10:42 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Believe me, if I didn't have an older brother to cart around to doctors and my wife didn't have grandchildren to baby sit I'd be living in Phoenix right not among people who have like minds.

See http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/traveltales.html#twotravelersandfarmer


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 14:20:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/28/2017 9:39 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 7:32:47 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-09-27 15:12, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 4:38:56 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-09-26 15:16, sms wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/26/2017 2:10 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>-more snip-
>> And I find that dumping material that bio-disintegrates
>> to be part of nature and haven't any problems with it.
>
>OK in theory I suppose but where do you draw the line?
>Half a hamburger? Fish heads? Dog poop?

Jeeze Andrew the wilderness is chocka block full of feces. Think of
all those mountain lions and the other creatures running about and not
a pooper-scooper in sight :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 14:20:04 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> OK in theory I suppose but where do you draw the line?
> Half a hamburger? Fish heads? Dog poop?

Weeeel . . . I don't dump garbage just anywhere. I look for a place
where it will do some good, and won't be visible while it's
decomposing. I was terribly embarrassed when I threw a banana peel
into a bean field and it caught on a weed, waving like a flag, and I
couldn't have gone in to knock it down without stepping on beans.

I remember sitting in Thatcher Park field-stripping an apple core. I
was too tired to find a weed patch, so I reduced it to a stem and some
seeds that could vanish in the manicured lawn.

Recently, I sat in front of the animal shelter (which had closed just
before I got there, so I still don't know what size pieces I should
cut my unwanted king-size quilt into) eating a banana, and planning to
throw it over the fence across the street, but when I got close to the
fence, I saw that instead of the row crop I'd expected, there was a
closely-mowed pasture. And though the weeds in the fence were thick
enough to block the view, they weren't thick enough to hide a banana
peel, so I took the peeling home and put it on the compost heap.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Yeah, there's no difference aside for the cost of living and the cost of a home. I could sell my home here and spend one third the price for the same size home in Phoenix. Gas is a dollar a gallon cheaper without California taxes on it. Property taxes are much cheaper. And there are no "sanctuary cities" which are designed not to protect illegals but the felons among them.

[Frank Krygowski]

So quit bitching and move.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Robert Latest]

Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-09-25 12:03, Robert Latest wrote:
>>
>> Yes. Half a teaspoon of table salt per liter. Add two or three of those
>> fizzy nutrition supplement tablets for additional minerals to taste.
>
>
> Which ones are those?

For example:

https://www.dm.de/doppelherz-magnesium-400-vitamine-b6-b12-
folsaeure-brausetabletten-p4009932008463.html

They also come with potassium, calcium, iron, whatever.


>> read the ingredients on the original powder to find a long list of
>> benign non-reasons to buy it.
>
> I did that but (so far) haven't found anything that has all of this:
>
> http://urpullzone.smartdecision.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/UltimaReplenisher-Orange-NF-SupplementFacts.jpg

Oh. I thought you were talking about these standard isotonic sports drinks
which contain just a handful of common salts. Basically the stuff you lose
when sweating.

> Also, I am not a biologist or nutrition expert who can say which of
> these are expendable and which percentages really matter. What I am
> looking for is a powder that has most or all of this, or whatever is
> important. Adding salt and other such simple ingredients is easy.
> Finding a source of selenium or molybdenum might be more challenging.

A healthy diet should take care of that by itself.

> Brewing a Pale Ale as I am writing here.

Good!

robert

[Robert Latest]

Joerg wrote:

> As I wrote earlier I do not chuck my banana peels or anything else for
> that matter into the environment

What do you do with your car exausts?

robert

[AMuzi]

Turn them once a week in the compost pile?

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-30 13:18, Robert Latest wrote:
> Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-09-25 12:03, Robert Latest wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes. Half a teaspoon of table salt per liter. Add two or three of those
>>> fizzy nutrition supplement tablets for additional minerals to taste.
>>
>>
>> Which ones are those?
>
> For example:
>
> https://www.dm.de/doppelherz-magnesium-400-vitamine-b6-b12-
> folsaeure-brausetabletten-p4009932008463.html
>
> They also come with potassium, calcium, iron, whatever.
>
>
>>> read the ingredients on the original powder to find a long list of
>>> benign non-reasons to buy it.
>>
>> I did that but (so far) haven't found anything that has all of this:
>>
>> http://urpullzone.smartdecision.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/UltimaReplenisher-Orange-NF-SupplementFacts.jpg
>
> Oh. I thought you were talking about these standard isotonic sports drinks
> which contain just a handful of common salts. Basically the stuff you lose
> when sweating.
>

I have now ordered this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002HWRY5S?th=1

Will let the group know how it fares.

>> Also, I am not a biologist or nutrition expert who can say which of
>> these are expendable and which percentages really matter. What I am
>> looking for is a powder that has most or all of this, or whatever is
>> important. Adding salt and other such simple ingredients is easy.
>> Finding a source of selenium or molybdenum might be more challenging.
>
> A healthy diet should take care of that by itself.
>
>> Brewing a Pale Ale as I am writing here.
>
> Good!
>

That's my healthy diet :-)

[Joerg]

They get filtered out in a catalytic converter. Well, most. At less than
1000 miles per year it isn't much though.

[avag...@gmail.com]

outdoors supply is sold out for the season ...a quality benchmark given the snake oil ambience

[Doug Landau]

Actually, I suggest throwing the peel some distance into the bushes. When the time comes that there are so many of them in the bushes that they are falling back onto the trail, and are unsightly, discontinue the practice.

[Doug Landau]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 6:50:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-09-30 13:24, Robert Latest wrote:
> > Joerg wrote:
> >
> >> As I wrote earlier I do not chuck my banana peels or anything else for
> >> that matter into the environment
> >
> > What do you do with your car exausts?
> >
>
> They get filtered out in a catalytic converter. Well, most. At less than
> 1000 miles per year it isn't much though.

Why do you say it isn't much? Can you justify that statement

[Doug Landau]

On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 12:20:05 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

> On 9/28/2017 9:39 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 7:32:47 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> >> On 2017-09-27 15:12, Doug Landau wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 4:38:56 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> >>>> On 2017-09-26 15:16, sms wrote:
> >>>>> On 9/26/2017 2:10 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <snip>
> -more snip-
> > And I find that dumping material that bio-disintegrates
> > to be part of nature and haven't any problems with it.
>
> OK in theory I suppose but where do you draw the line?
> Half a hamburger? Fish heads? Dog poop?

You draw the line at quantity, of course, not at what it actually is. What makes litter ok or not ok is how many people are doing it.

[Joerg]

A Honda Accord was once tested in that respect in Southern California, I
believe near Los Angeles. This was a few years ago, not in the days when
smog ruled down there. Still, what came out of the tail pipe was cleaner
than the air that went into the engine.

My car always passes smog with flying colors, the measured values are a
fraction of what is allowed. Last year I drove 757 miles. 4000 miles on
the bikes.

[Doug Landau]

On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 4:15:19 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-10-09 09:49, Doug Landau wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 6:50:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> >> On 2017-09-30 13:24, Robert Latest wrote:
> >>> Joerg wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> As I wrote earlier I do not chuck my banana peels or anything else for
> >>>> that matter into the environment
> >>>
> >>> What do you do with your car exausts?
> >>>
> >>
> >> They get filtered out in a catalytic converter. Well, most. At less than
> >> 1000 miles per year it isn't much though.
> >
> > Why do you say it isn't much? Can you justify that statement
> >
>
> A Honda Accord was once tested in that respect in Southern California, I
> believe near Los Angeles. This was a few years ago, not in the days when
> smog ruled down there. Still, what came out of the tail pipe was cleaner
> than the air that went into the engine.

That is hilarious! Thanks

> My car always passes smog with flying colors, the measured values are a
> fraction of what is allowed. Last year I drove 757 miles. 4000 miles on
> the bikes.

Just pointing out, you are not judging yourself by any absolute, but by comparison to others. Not saying that is wrong, but am saying that it is
interesting.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-24 10:02, Joerg wrote:
> For whatever reason the price for Ultima Replenisher (90-serving
> canisters) got jacked up, big time. We used to pay around $25 in bulk,
> now it's around $40 with shipping. We go through a lot.
>
> Are there alternatives of comparable quality but more reasonably priced?
> Orange flavor would be great but doesn't matter much, as long as it's
> not any funky or excessively sweet flavor. No artificial sweeteners.
>

Some feedback:

I bought "Electro Mix" from Emergen-C (Alacer Corp). About $10 for 30
pouches but those are for 1 liter each so a pouch makes two 500ml
bottles. Therefore, much cheaper than Ultima ever was.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002HWRY5S?th=1

It is also higher in potassium which is good for a hard ride. Taste is
another matter ... blech ... totally bland, there is none. So my wife
adds in a spritz of lemon juice. Though I don't mind the no-taste
version because I just gulp it down to avoid cramps. It works.

Of course, on many rides I have another much more tasty potassium source
in addition: Beer :-)

[cycl...@gmail.com]

If I could only force myself to drink water and your mix. Problem is that I can usually ride 40 miles without stopping and I can't take my hands off of the bars due to the medication. The last couple of times I've ridden I have stopped and had a couple of gulps at the beginning and end of the hard climbs. That helped but I still get cramps that night in bed.

[Doug Landau]

On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 6:00:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Well, that was a wise farmer.

The owner of a department store had to go on a business trip
to Dallas. His wife's Cousin Jeb was visiting in their St. Louis
home so the merchant decided it would be nice to take Jeb along
with him to Texas. Be educational. Broaden Jeb's horizons.
The two men checked in at a hotel in downtown Dallas and
occupied adjoining rooms. The merchant, a worldly man, slept
soundly and got up at seven o'clock. He opened the door to Jeb's
room and found the country cousin fully dressed, sitting by the
window. The bed had not been slept in.
"Good Lord, Jeb," said the merchant, "haven't you been to
bed?"
"Nawp. Been settin' right here, watchin'. Folks in this town
has fell behind in their haulin', and they been haulin' all night."

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/10/2017 7:15 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>
> A Honda Accord was once tested in that respect in Southern California, I
> believe near Los Angeles. This was a few years ago, not in the days when
> smog ruled down there. Still, what came out of the tail pipe was cleaner
> than the air that went into the engine.

I'd be very interested in a link documenting that.

I can imagine that particulates might be reduced by the air filter, but
CO, CO2 and NOx would be added, I'd think.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter#Construction
for "converters 101" it is apparently a far more complex subject then
often thought.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Around here the hot rodders by-pass them in order to use straight pipes to let the world know they're around. I've yet to see one of them ticketed.

[Joerg]

I don't do that either. I stop at a reasonably nice spot, sit down
somewhere, have a home-made power bar and drink the electrolyte.


> ... The last couple of times

> I've ridden I have stopped and had a couple of gulps at the beginning
> and end of the hard climbs. That helped but I still get cramps that
> night in bed.
>

The number of times I get leg cramps has dropped from 30-40/year to
3-4/year since I started drinking electrolyte mixes with potassium in
them. Except the new one now contains a lot more potassium. Also, the
few cramps I still get at night are much less painful than the ones from
years ago where I'd almost be screaming. They come on slower. Back in my
no-electrolyte riding days I occasionally felt a cramp coming up during
rides, mostly on the MTB where muscle activity jumps between zero and
full bore. That has completely disappeared.

People with blood pressure issues or on medication should be careful
though, too much potassium may not be good for them and they should talk
to their cardiologist first.

Even my wife who does not bicycle drinks a daily electrolyte mix and it
has resulted in much less cramps.

[Joerg]

On 2017-10-10 19:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/10/2017 7:15 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>
>> A Honda Accord was once tested in that respect in Southern California,
>> I believe near Los Angeles. This was a few years ago, not in the days
>> when smog ruled down there. Still, what came out of the tail pipe was
>> cleaner than the air that went into the engine.
>
> I'd be very interested in a link documenting that.
>

It's gone long ago, it was in a newspaper I read on a business trip. A
reputable one. Even if there was a link it would probably be behind a
pay wall.

> I can imagine that particulates might be reduced by the air filter, but
> CO, CO2 and NOx would be added, I'd think.
>

CO2 is not harmful. CO and NOX are but those are miniscule with a well
designed car these days. They measured the whole enchilada and added up
the health risks of it all. AFAIR the largest benefit the car engine
provided was burning off fine soot particles that would otherwise lodge
deeply in the lungs and cause longterm damage. Of course, this car did
not have a Diesel engine ...

[Doug Landau]

On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 10:07:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-10-10 19:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 10/10/2017 7:15 PM, Joerg wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> A Honda Accord was once tested in that respect in Southern California,
> >> I believe near Los Angeles. This was a few years ago, not in the days
> >> when smog ruled down there. Still, what came out of the tail pipe was
> >> cleaner than the air that went into the engine.
> >
> > I'd be very interested in a link documenting that.
> >
>
> It's gone long ago, it was in a newspaper I read on a business trip. A
> reputable one. Even if there was a link it would probably be behind a
> pay wall.

pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

[AMuzi]

Joerg remembered the headline statement if not the details.

That story made a news splash for a few days in 2008:
http://gas2.org/2008/05/05/the-cleanest-cars-on-earth-honda-civic-gx-and-other-natural-gas-vehicles-ngvs/

"What makes it special is what you don’t see: tailpipe
emissions that are often cleaner than ambient air."

BTW that was a CNG vehicle, not a turbo diesel or gasoline
engine.

[Frank Krygowski]

Thanks. That I can believe, especially with the critical qualifier
"often" in the sentence.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

That isn't the same case and with CNG the results would naturally be
even more impressive.

I drove a propane-powered Toyota Celica a few times in the Netherlands
in the 80's. It had to be started on gasoline and then switched over.
Once it ran on propane there was no smell at all from the exhaust and it
had essentially 70's engine technology.