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Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

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Andre Jute

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Apr 4, 2015, 9:23:34 PM4/4/15
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Photo:

http://coolmainpress.com/ajwriting/archives/4860

Laterally yours,

Andre Jute

avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 4, 2015, 10:29:32 PM4/4/15
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retrog...@gmail.com

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Apr 6, 2015, 10:55:03 AM4/6/15
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Andre, that's a chick bike! Gay as hell! I wouldn't be caught dead on a bike like that!

avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 6, 2015, 11:11:15 AM4/6/15
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On Monday, April 6, 2015 at 10:55:03 AM UTC-4, retrog...@gmail.com wrote:
> Andre, that's a chick bike! Gay as hell! I wouldn't be caught dead on a bike like that!

.....


Trogo ? which bike you refer ?

quite a pile AJ....you pay for the setup or DIY ?

The CG piece is a good recommend not that we trust you after all ura BS Legend...

If you were Sheldon or Muzi then maybe yawl convince us to quit smoking.

Ura overcompensating on Image sharpness at this end.

Andre Jute

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Apr 6, 2015, 4:19:22 PM4/6/15
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On Monday, April 6, 2015 at 3:55:03 PM UTC+1, retrog...@gmail.com wrote:
> Andre, that's a chick bike! Gay as hell! I wouldn't be caught dead on a bike like that!

Thank god. If a shaveleg queer like you were seen riding around on a bike like mine, people might think I was queer too.

Andre Jute

James

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Apr 6, 2015, 9:34:22 PM4/6/15
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Nice. I'm up to 17,500km on two chains in alternate use on a single
cassette. However I cook and swap chains about once a month, and avoid
wet weather riding where possible. I have been caught out in the rain
though. Sometimes I risk it and get caught out. I actually left one
chain on for several months, and now the other chain wont run on the
cassette. For the past 4 months I've been on one chain.

--
JS

Andre Jute

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Apr 6, 2015, 11:48:12 PM4/6/15
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Not so sure you'll get any hugely extended mileage from running a Chainglider, James, even if you could; you're clearly already doing something right. I used to live in Melbourne, in St Vincent Place, and I remember vividly being out in a summer jacket, walking my leash of Borzoi past Government House, and being caught in snowstorm in the spring, and nearly catching my death of pneumonia on that short run home. You must be really good at judging the weather, or very lucky, if you don't get caught like once a week in weather as changeable as Melbourne's.

Just for the record, for everyone else, the Chainglider works only with *hub gearboxes* (or single speeds, of course), and as far as I can tell, there is only one hub gearbox with the gear range roadies demand; that's the one I have, the Rolloff, which is in the DuraAce price bracket, though it lasts forever and effectively has a lifetime guarantee if you service it once a year at a cost of about twenty or thirty dollars and an hour of your time, some of which is spent riding to circulate the cleaning oil. The thing is actually a mudplugger's gearbox, built like Mercedes truck, but found on lots of luxury bikes, and in Europe on the winter bikes of roadies too. Amost every upmarket touring bike has a Rohloff version because it won't let you down in Outer Nospikkadaeenglishstan.

Some people are just hard on chains; I'm one of them. When I finally got up to less than half your mileage, I thought I'd a arrived...

Andre Jute

avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 7, 2015, 7:23:28 AM4/7/15
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Joerg

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Apr 7, 2015, 12:12:28 PM4/7/15
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The KMC-X10.93 on my MTB was gone after about 1200mi or less than
2000km. Way gone. I found that once it reached the 0.8% stretch limit
its continued wear accelerated big time.

90% hard offroad though. Factory lube which is good on the KMC lasts
roughly 100mi on the MTB after which it begins to make noise. After that
it gets a thorough cleaning and White Lightning Epic Ride every 50mi or
so. Rohloff would be nice but $1500 plus wheel build is a bit much.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 7, 2015, 2:34:09 PM4/7/15
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white lightning sucks goat urine.

Rollo's have fiber cogs. How spend that much for fiber cogs in the sweet spot is beyond me except consider Rollo's are generally not used by riders doahn ride

INCREDULOUS

Joerg

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Apr 7, 2015, 3:36:48 PM4/7/15
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On 2015-04-07 11:34 AM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> white lightning sucks goat urine.
>

I found it to be pretty good. Most MTB riders out here get 30mi or less
per lube and the chain starts to grind, courtesy of very fine powdered
clay dust that is kicked up by the front wheel. I routinely get 50mi out
of their Epic Ride. So I don't have to carry the lube in my backpack
like others.

On my road bike it's more like 150mi, depending on how many of those
miles are off pavement.


> Rollo's have fiber cogs. How spend that much for fiber cogs in the
> sweet spot is beyond me except consider Rollo's are generally not
> used by riders doahn ride
>
> INCREDULOUS
>

Rohloff has fiber cogs? Seriously?

That hub has a good reputation, with people clocking north of 50k miles
on the same hub. It's just a tad expensive. Not sure how the less
expensive Alfine would hold up on a MTB.

avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 7, 2015, 6:24:38 PM4/7/15
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, Joerg

FIBER COGS FIBER COGS ? yeah I dunno....last nite I searched in carbon fiber cogs.

you should try Pedro's 2.0 with the silicon spray refresher. The 2.0 moves toward a wax-dino oil formula.

Cal's ocean bed limestone dust mixed with diesel fuel sticks to the windshield like the stuff was formulated for that.

If you cut a polyjug into a 2" wide Z shape lengthwise covering the CR front with the top Z leg...STRETCHING the horizontal members to cover by design into cut shape....mounting the upper leg to tube with a hose clamp..

this cover will reduce CR dust accumulation maybe 75%

a second flow comes from sticky dirt making the trip over the top as the rear wheel moves To the CR. I saw a commercial seat tube mounted shield on a Bontrager Touring bike...maybe 1.5' feet 1 foot ! long vertically n abt 4-5" curving out each side. The seat tube glider

most of that dirt drops o the front deray. Another leg and shelf.

....................

the rear wheel dusts from straight down from tire rolling forward n up...shingle taping the cleaned deray with electrical tape cpovers the deray.

a polyjug cut cover with shelf and leg for hose clamp attachment to the axle to seat tube...I forget... covers the gear cluster


if you do these guards which is painless then more than 70-80% dirt per mile is deflected.

In promoting this I found one positive response both online and on road cementing my opinion that yawl have your head stuck in your asshole abt bike tech.

Andre Jute

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Apr 7, 2015, 7:54:38 PM4/7/15
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I have a theory that once a cyclist establishes a mileage x on a transmission component, and some approximation to best practice for his transmission chain, fiddling with brands of components and lube will win him only marginal improvements. He has to make some kind of a radical rethink to get a radical improvement over his established mileage.

When my bikes had Shimano hub gearboxesI used to get 1000 miles on Shimano Nexus transmission sets -- inside those big plastic Dutch chain cases, with perfectly clean chains encased in white wax. Fiddling around with brand names and lubes and fiddly bits (the chainline is important) I eventually got my mileage up to better than 1100m.

Then I switched to the Rohloff box and tight-fitting, tightly enclosed chain cases, steel or stainless gears (now all stainless, but not because any of the steel wore out before it's time, merely as a step in my experiment towards the zero maintenance bike), and KMC Z8 and X8 chains, with Oil of Rohloff lube, and immediately got 4506km, near enough 3000m, definitely a quantum step.

Now I'm at 3500km in an experiment to run the KMC X8 chain, Rohloff factory cog, and Surly stainless steel chainring, all inside a Hebie Chainglider, without any lube but what came on the X8 from the factory. I already have developed my bike to the point where once a year the oil is changed and the gearchange connector gets a shot of grease and a new chain is fitted, which is the nearest approach to a zero maintenance bike available anywhere on earth, I think. But I'd like to see, in another 1000km, whether the factory lube makes the same distance as lubing by Oil of Rohloff.

***

BTW, Oil of Rohloff is wonderful stuff. It is light and clean and very economical as you just lay a light bead on top of the chain, so that a little bottle goes a long way. I bought six of the little bottles with my bike, and in 4506km used less than half of one bottle. The stuff's also cheap, about five Euro a bottle. It spreads and clings tenaciously, though, so you want to be careful where else it gets on your bike because it just doesn't want to be wiped off. It doesn't stain clothes, which is good.

Andre Jute

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Apr 7, 2015, 8:05:29 PM4/7/15
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On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 7:34:09 PM UTC+1, avag...@gmail.com wrote:

> Rollo's have fiber cogs. How spend that much for fiber cogs in the sweet spot is beyond me except consider Rollo's are generally not used by riders doahn ride
>
> INCREDULOUS

You should be incredulous, you ignorant clown, at the incredible lies you spread every time you open your fat mouth. There are no fiber cogs on any Rohloff anywhere in the world, no matter what irrelevances your incompetent googling throws up.

Andre Jute
Standing tall for truth

Andre Jute

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Apr 7, 2015, 8:39:26 PM4/7/15
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On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 8:36:48 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:

> On my road bike it's more like 150mi [per application of White Lightning Epic lube], depending on how many of those
> miles are off pavement.

If that's all you get, you may as well work with the clean white wax. I used to get 150 tarmac miles out of a lube.

> > Rollo's have fiber cogs. How spend that much for fiber cogs in the
> > sweet spot is beyond me except consider Rollo's are generally not
> > used by riders doahn ride
> >
> > INCREDULOUS
> >
>
> Rohloff has fiber cogs? Seriously?

This poor jerk Danilels sees a post, makes a fast hit on Google with an incompent search term, then posts whatever it says in the first link just to post something. Then he postures as an expert.

You can get three kinds of cogs on a Rohloff hub:
1. Rohloff's own long-lasting and reasonably priced reversible cogs. Most people use these.
2. Special tooth count cogs. Rohloff for instance licensed the English touring bike make Thorn to make a tooth count they don't make themselves; it's no longer available, presumably because not enough buyers wanted it. (The licensing has to do with the torque permitted on the hub, which is a function of the chainring and sprocket tooth ratio. For instance, I use 38x16 with a factory cog, which is already a stump puller even on 700C wheels, but Rohloff permits even lower for real heavy tourers who want to climb vertical hills. )
3. Gates Belt Drive. The belt is carbon fibre, the cogs are steel. Again, a special license from Rohloff is required for the installation.

> That hub has a good reputation, with people clocking north of 50k miles
> on the same hub.

These days it's north of a lot more than 50K. But a downhiller like you shouldn't make his judgement on what tourers do, but on what the mudpluggers achieve: none of them have ever wrecked a Rohloff box terminally. Rohloff installations are headed for 200,000 and there isn't even one that has been terminated. Rohloff refuses to say what the life expectancy of the box is, not because they're obstructive but because they simply don't know.

>It's just a tad expensive. Not sure how the less
> expensive Alfine would hold up on a MTB.

Mmm. See, Shimano had a seven-speed Nexus box, which was developed from a 3-speed Nexus box that goes back to at least the nineties, maybe the eighties of the last century. (Where is Vogel, my little googlebug, when I need him?) They sold a gazillion of the seven speed boxes to OEMs in Taiwan and The Netherlands. It has a reputation as a good, tough, commuter box. Then Shimano extended its range by turning it into an eight speed box. This one was a bit fragile if not properly serviced. Mine is rough after about 5000m. Shimano added a so-called "Premium" 8-speed with better seals and bearings. Mine clocked out at about 5000m. Shimano then built an Alfine 11-speed specifically for tougher duty. It has mixed reports, but by this time I'd given up on Shimano hub gearboxes as unsuitable for mashers; they're probably admirable for commuters. Shimano next produced an 8-sp Alfine which may be a downscaled Alfine and thus better than the Premium 8-sp or may just be the Premium 8-sp renamed. All of these require a service every 5000km by being disassembled and stood in a bath of oil. The service kit costs between a quarter and a tenth of the purchase price of the box or 250% of the price of a Rohloff service kit.

Chalo Colina, one of the smartest and most experienced cyclists ever to come to RBT, said that a Rohloff just starts to be run in when a Shimano hub gearbox is worn out. It's true.

Experience with Shimano hub gearboxes (which I admire on a cost/benefit basis for less strenuous applications than mine; I also admire the roller brakes that come with them but, again, not their service requirements) persuaded me that a Rohloff is a cheap option for the committed cyclist. I haven't regretted the expenditure for a single moment.

Andre Jute

Joerg

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Apr 7, 2015, 8:41:37 PM4/7/15
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On 2015-04-07 3:24 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> , Joerg
>
> FIBER COGS FIBER COGS ? yeah I dunno....last nite I searched in
> carbon fiber cogs.
>
> you should try Pedro's 2.0 with the silicon spray refresher. The 2.0
> moves toward a wax-dino oil formula.
>

Many road bikers here use wax. But it isn't so great for MTB rides out
here. The KMC factory lube is waxy and it attracts our trail dust like a
magnet.


> Cal's ocean bed limestone dust mixed with diesel fuel sticks to the
> windshield like the stuff was formulated for that.
>

It does that even without Diesel. Then there is the splash from muddy
areas which is right now caked on my bike's frame almost like enamel. By
now even the battery isn't recognizable.

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy.JPG


> If you cut a polyjug into a 2" wide Z shape lengthwise covering the
> CR front with the top Z leg...STRETCHING the horizontal members to
> cover by design into cut shape....mounting the upper leg to tube
> with a hose clamp..
>
> this cover will reduce CR dust accumulation maybe 75%
>

I was thinking about something like that but don't want to have any
sharp plastic down there. That's a recipe for nasty cuts and lots of
blood. I'll be looking for something a little stiffer than neoprene, no
sharp edges. Another option may be really soft aluminum with well
rounded edges. Fastening this stuff safely isn't trivial. Mainly because
we also have lots of loose rock which bangs into the bike's bottom all
the time. Occasionally agains a shin and man that hurts. It gets kicked
up by the front tire and then flies at you at the traveling speed.


> a second flow comes from sticky dirt making the trip over the top as
> the rear wheel moves To the CR. I saw a commercial seat tube mounted
> shield on a Bontrager Touring bike...maybe 1.5' feet 1 foot ! long
> vertically n abt 4-5" curving out each side. The seat tube glider
>
> most of that dirt drops o the front deray. Another leg and shelf.
>
> ....................
>
> the rear wheel dusts from straight down from tire rolling forward n
> up...shingle taping the cleaned deray with electrical tape cpovers
> the deray.
>
> a polyjug cut cover with shelf and leg for hose clamp attachment to
> the axle to seat tube...I forget... covers the gear cluster
>

Rear wheel dusting is surprisingly little. But the front wheel is bad.
When looking down I can often see a constant plume. Sometimes it is so
bad that rides have to keep 100-200ft distance from each other, else the
followers cough their lungs out.


>
> if you do these guards which is painless then more than 70-80% dirt
> per mile is deflected.
>

That would be great. Getting 100mi out of a lube versus 50mi would be big.


> In promoting this I found one positive response both online and on
> road cementing my opinion that yawl have your head stuck in your
> asshole abt bike tech.
>

Now, now ...

avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 7, 2015, 8:52:20 PM4/7/15
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Jute

you are an ugly pig and a barbarian vanity press author

the info sez FIBER COGS...the rebuild video sez FIBER COGS.

MAN TAKES HIS APRAT AND SEZ FIBER COGS







avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 7, 2015, 8:54:37 PM4/7/15
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A GALLON WATER JUG j NOT MIL SPEC URETHANE

Andre Jute

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Apr 7, 2015, 9:02:05 PM4/7/15
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On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 7:34:09 PM UTC+1, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> Rollo's are generally not used by riders doahn ride

Holy shit, the conference quarter-wit gets something right, though involuntarily by illitterate double negative when his actual intention was dumb malice.

Read that again: "Rollo's are generally not used by riders doahn ride". Precisely! Rohloffs are generally used by riders who ride a lot, just as poor Gene Daniels manages to say -- despite himself!

I'm so happy to be able to agree with you this once, Daniels. Congratulations on getting something right, even accidentally by illiteracy.

Andre Jute
Laughter is good for you

Andre Jute

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Apr 7, 2015, 9:28:13 PM4/7/15
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On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 1:52:20 AM UTC+1, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> Jute
>
> you are an ugly pig and a barbarian vanity press author

According to Gene Daniels, the group quarterwit, Secker & Warburg, Harper, Bantam, W W Norton, St Martin's, Warner Books, Sphere, Rotovision of Switzerland, Batsford, David & Charles, etc, etc, most of the world's top publishers, who all published my books, are all "vanity publishers". And my Swedish, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, many Spanish, Japanese, Greek, etc, etc, publishers in translation, all "vanity presses", huh?

Yeah? You're wanking, Daniels.

Add another subject of which the poor fuckwit Daniels know absolutely nothing. That completes an entire Dewey classification of which Gene Daniels is ignorant. Mind you, to be fair, this clown Daniels probably thinks Dewey was a "vanity publisher".

> the info sez FIBER COGS...the rebuild video sez FIBER COGS.
>
> MAN TAKES HIS APRAT AND SEZ FIBER COGS

Well, show it to us, sonny; we promise not to laugh at the gullible hick from the sticks.

Andre Jute
How difficult could it be to stick to what you know? The rest of us manage just fine.

AMuzi

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Apr 8, 2015, 8:50:59 AM4/8/15
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You click Gurgle links?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Andre Jute

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Apr 8, 2015, 9:46:25 AM4/8/15
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On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 1:50:59 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/7/2015 7:05 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 7:34:09 PM UTC+1, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> Rollo's have fiber cogs. How spend that much for fiber cogs in the sweet spot is beyond me except consider Rollo's are generally not used by riders doahn ride
> >>
> >> INCREDULOUS
> >
> > You should be incredulous, you ignorant clown, at the incredible lies you spread every time you open your fat mouth. There are no fiber cogs on any Rohloff anywhere in the world, no matter what irrelevances your incompetent googling throws up.
> >
> > Andre Jute
> > Standing tall for truth
> >
>
> You click Gurgle links?
>
Of course I don't click Google links. I have clowns to do that and come tell me what they say. I was responding to the fuckwit Gene Daniels' ignorant statement made explicitly in his post that "Rollo's have fiber cogs."

Andre Jute
Duh

Joerg

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Apr 8, 2015, 10:03:34 AM4/8/15
to
Probably true. But when radical rethink comes with a hefty four-digit
price tag the willingness for change drops significantly.


> When my bikes had Shimano hub gearboxesI used to get 1000 miles on
> Shimano Nexus transmission sets -- inside those big plastic Dutch
> chain cases, with perfectly clean chains encased in white wax.
> Fiddling around with brand names and lubes and fiddly bits (the
> chainline is important) I eventually got my mileage up to better than
> 1100m.
>

I hope that doesn't mean you had to swap the Nexus hub every 1100 miles ...


> Then I switched to the Rohloff box and tight-fitting, tightly
> enclosed chain cases, steel or stainless gears (now all stainless,
> but not because any of the steel wore out before it's time, merely as
> a step in my experiment towards the zero maintenance bike), and KMC
> Z8 and X8 chains, with Oil of Rohloff lube, and immediately got
> 4506km, near enough 3000m, definitely a quantum step.
>
> Now I'm at 3500km in an experiment to run the KMC X8 chain, Rohloff
> factory cog, and Surly stainless steel chainring, all inside a Hebie
> Chainglider, without any lube but what came on the X8 from the
> factory. I already have developed my bike to the point where once a
> year the oil is changed and the gearchange connector gets a shot of
> grease and a new chain is fitted, which is the nearest approach to a
> zero maintenance bike available anywhere on earth, I think. But I'd
> like to see, in another 1000km, whether the factory lube makes the
> same distance as lubing by Oil of Rohloff.
>

If the Rohloff just wouldn't be so expensive. With two bikes (which you
need out here) that would easily set you back $4k or more with wheel
re-build and all. And the risk of bike theft goes up tenfold.


> ***
>
> BTW, Oil of Rohloff is wonderful stuff. It is light and clean and
> very economical as you just lay a light bead on top of the chain, so
> that a little bottle goes a long way. I bought six of the little
> bottles with my bike, and in 4506km used less than half of one
> bottle. The stuff's also cheap, about five Euro a bottle. It spreads
> and clings tenaciously, though, so you want to be careful where else
> it gets on your bike because it just doesn't want to be wiped off. It
> doesn't stain clothes, which is good.
>

That is indeed economical. Like Hammond oil for Hammond organs. In about
10 years we've probably used 1/3 of a bottle.

I don't mind maintenance so much. I lift the bike up onto the bench so I
can work while standing, turn on the radio or think about some technical
stuff I have to engineer out and go about the clean and lube of the
chains. Mostly the steerer also needs adjustment and other stuff.

Joerg

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Apr 8, 2015, 10:14:03 AM4/8/15
to
That licensing seems like a silly business.


>> That hub has a good reputation, with people clocking north of 50k
>> miles on the same hub.
>
> These days it's north of a lot more than 50K. But a downhiller like
> you shouldn't make his judgement on what tourers do, but on what the
> mudpluggers achieve: none of them have ever wrecked a Rohloff box
> terminally. Rohloff installations are headed for 200,000 and there
> isn't even one that has been terminated.


Oh there are. Example:

http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-141.html

And when that stuff happens with a $1500 product I'd like it to be
covered by a truly honored lifetime warranty. Like on a pricey kitchen
faucet here where they sent us a new one for free.


> ... Rohloff refuses to say what
> the life expectancy of the box is, not because they're obstructive
> but because they simply don't know.
>

I am not a downhiller but ride hard trails, lots of torque and steep
climbs. In my youth I wrecked cotter pins for cranks by the dozen.
I guess some day I'll have to take the plunge and switch to Rohloff then.

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 8, 2015, 11:18:38 AM4/8/15
to
I know. But if you break the Rohloff requirements, they may not give you the benefit of the doubt after your warranty expires. This voluntary continuation of the warranty is very valuable on an item this expensive.

> >> That hub has a good reputation, with people clocking north of 50k
> >> miles on the same hub.
> >
> > These days it's north of a lot more than 50K. But a downhiller like
> > you shouldn't make his judgement on what tourers do, but on what the
> > mudpluggers achieve: none of them have ever wrecked a Rohloff box
> > terminally. Rohloff installations are headed for 200,000 and there
> > isn't even one that has been terminated.
>
>
> Oh there are. Example:
>
> http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-141.html
>
> And when that stuff happens with a $1500 product I'd like it to be
> covered by a truly honored lifetime warranty. Like on a pricey kitchen
> faucet here where they sent us a new one for free.

That's not a destroyed hub. You send it to Rohloff and they fit the gubbins to a new shell. The only question is who pays for. In the normal course of events, regardless of the age of the hub, Rohloff does not charge users who change the oil in their hubs regularly.

In any event, you can now get 36 hole Rohloff hubs, and a wrecker like you should!

Andre Jute

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 8, 2015, 11:23:59 AM4/8/15
to
Not that bad, but my Shimano hubs didn't last past 5K, which isn't good enough.

> > Then I switched to the Rohloff box and tight-fitting, tightly
> > enclosed chain cases, steel or stainless gears (now all stainless,
> > but not because any of the steel wore out before it's time, merely as
> > a step in my experiment towards the zero maintenance bike), and KMC
> > Z8 and X8 chains, with Oil of Rohloff lube, and immediately got
> > 4506km, near enough 3000m, definitely a quantum step.
> >
> > Now I'm at 3500km in an experiment to run the KMC X8 chain, Rohloff
> > factory cog, and Surly stainless steel chainring, all inside a Hebie
> > Chainglider, without any lube but what came on the X8 from the
> > factory. I already have developed my bike to the point where once a
> > year the oil is changed and the gearchange connector gets a shot of
> > grease and a new chain is fitted, which is the nearest approach to a
> > zero maintenance bike available anywhere on earth, I think. But I'd
> > like to see, in another 1000km, whether the factory lube makes the
> > same distance as lubing by Oil of Rohloff.
> >
>
> If the Rohloff just wouldn't be so expensive. With two bikes (which you
> need out here) that would easily set you back $4k or more with wheel
> re-build and all. And the risk of bike theft goes up tenfold.

You reckon thieves know a Rohloff hub? I woulda thought a big hub in the rear wheel without any shiny, clearly expensive derailleurs, would be a deterrent. No thief wants to steal orphan equipment.

You do know that thieves can't get a Rohloff serviced, don't you. Rohloff keeps a record of serials of their boxes reported stolen, and refuse them service.

Andre Jute

Joerg

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Apr 8, 2015, 4:18:03 PM4/8/15
to
Ok, that's not a license. That's just obtaining the manufacturer's ok
for a certain method of use.


>>>> That hub has a good reputation, with people clocking north of
>>>> 50k miles on the same hub.
>>>
>>> These days it's north of a lot more than 50K. But a downhiller
>>> like you shouldn't make his judgement on what tourers do, but on
>>> what the mudpluggers achieve: none of them have ever wrecked a
>>> Rohloff box terminally. Rohloff installations are headed for
>>> 200,000 and there isn't even one that has been terminated.
>>
>>
>> Oh there are. Example:
>>
>> http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-141.html
>>
>> And when that stuff happens with a $1500 product I'd like it to be
>> covered by a truly honored lifetime warranty. Like on a pricey
>> kitchen faucet here where they sent us a new one for free.
>
> That's not a destroyed hub. You send it to Rohloff and they fit the
> gubbins to a new shell. The only question is who pays for.


That is the key question. And to me that's pretty much a destroyed hub.


> ... In the
> normal course of events, regardless of the age of the hub, Rohloff
> does not charge users who change the oil in their hubs regularly.
>
> In any event, you can now get 36 hole Rohloff hubs, and a wrecker
> like you should!
>

Probably. It would be best if Rohloff offered complete wheels for disc
brake, like 26", 27-1/2 and 29" for MTB riders. Having to spoke it in is
a major hassle to MTB folks, like me most of them really don't like
doing that. But they do not care about decor so just a non-descript
black rim would be fine.

Joerg

unread,
Apr 8, 2015, 4:26:09 PM4/8/15
to
On 2015-04-08 8:23 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 3:03:34 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-04-07 4:54 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2015-04-06 6:34 PM, James wrote:
>>>>> On 05/04/15 11:23, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>>>

[...]

>>
>>> When my bikes had Shimano hub gearboxesI used to get 1000 miles
>>> on Shimano Nexus transmission sets -- inside those big plastic
>>> Dutch chain cases, with perfectly clean chains encased in white
>>> wax. Fiddling around with brand names and lubes and fiddly bits
>>> (the chainline is important) I eventually got my mileage up to
>>> better than 1100m.
>>
>> I hope that doesn't mean you had to swap the Nexus hub every 1100
>> miles ...
>
> Not that bad, but my Shimano hubs didn't last past 5K, which isn't
> good enough.
>

That to me is a clear case of premature failure. I wouldn't even get two
years worth out of it on my MTB.


>>> Then I switched to the Rohloff box and tight-fitting, tightly
>>> enclosed chain cases, steel or stainless gears (now all
>>> stainless, but not because any of the steel wore out before it's
>>> time, merely as a step in my experiment towards the zero
>>> maintenance bike), and KMC Z8 and X8 chains, with Oil of Rohloff
>>> lube, and immediately got 4506km, near enough 3000m, definitely a
>>> quantum step.
>>>
>>> Now I'm at 3500km in an experiment to run the KMC X8 chain,
>>> Rohloff factory cog, and Surly stainless steel chainring, all
>>> inside a Hebie Chainglider, without any lube but what came on the
>>> X8 from the factory. I already have developed my bike to the
>>> point where once a year the oil is changed and the gearchange
>>> connector gets a shot of grease and a new chain is fitted, which
>>> is the nearest approach to a zero maintenance bike available
>>> anywhere on earth, I think. But I'd like to see, in another
>>> 1000km, whether the factory lube makes the same distance as
>>> lubing by Oil of Rohloff.
>>>
>>
>> If the Rohloff just wouldn't be so expensive. With two bikes (which
>> you need out here) that would easily set you back $4k or more with
>> wheel re-build and all. And the risk of bike theft goes up
>> tenfold.
>
> You reckon thieves know a Rohloff hub? I woulda thought a big hub in
> the rear wheel without any shiny, clearly expensive derailleurs,
> would be a deterrent. No thief wants to steal orphan equipment.
>

They aren't that dumb, they know which bikes are worth money. The not so
smart ones would think it's an E-bike with a hub motor.


> You do know that thieves can't get a Rohloff serviced, don't you.
> Rohloff keeps a record of serials of their boxes reported stolen, and
> refuse them service.
>

I know but thieves don't. They are not interested in getting anything
serviced. All they are usually interested in is to sell the stolen bike
to a "dealer" same day or as fast as possible so they can get the cash
for their next drug fix.

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 8, 2015, 4:39:03 PM4/8/15
to
On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 9:26:09 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
> On 2015-04-08 8:23 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 3:03:34 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
> >> On 2015-04-07 4:54 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 5:12:28 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
> >>>> On 2015-04-06 6:34 PM, James wrote:
> >>>>> On 05/04/15 11:23, Andre Jute wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >> If the Rohloff just wouldn't be so expensive. With two bikes (which
> >> you need out here) that would easily set you back $4k or more with
> >> wheel re-build and all. And the risk of bike theft goes up
> >> tenfold.
> >
> > You reckon thieves know a Rohloff hub? I woulda thought a big hub in
> > the rear wheel without any shiny, clearly expensive derailleurs,
> > would be a deterrent. No thief wants to steal orphan equipment.
> >
>
> They aren't that dumb, they know which bikes are worth money. The not so
> smart ones would think it's an E-bike with a hub motor.

Yeah, something to think about. The (front) electric motor I recommend for having the best torque curve and being finished to European expectations of engineering punctilio, the 8FUN QSWXK, is just about the same size and appearance as a Rohloff hub. The rear version has the same appearance, only a longer axle to take the cluster.

We're entering a time when an electric bike, far from being an impediment to a quick sale, will be the most desired bike for thieves who want a quick sale. Maybe we're already there.

Andre Jute

Joerg

unread,
Apr 8, 2015, 6:30:22 PM4/8/15
to
My impression from my last bike ride in Germany in 2014 is that they are
already there. Around 25% percent of the bikes I saw were E-bikes. If
you count only newer ones that number would probably be north of 50%.

I don't know how standardized E-bikes are but that's also an issue. The
more standardized the higher the chances of being stolen. Because, like
many Japanese cars where parts commonality is very high, they are highly
desired at chop shops. Worth more money in parts than as a whole so they
are butchered the minute they arrive. Once parted out the chance of
being discovered is almost zilch.

avag...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 8, 2015, 6:35:04 PM4/8/15
to
icy Jutee is reading my material

dig pit

cover with sticks

wait for pig

avag...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 8, 2015, 6:36:03 PM4/8/15
to
you pay they print

avag...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 8, 2015, 6:46:38 PM4/8/15
to
J if real I dunno how you handle it. Just too much dirt/mile

Rolloff MTB ? never thought of that...

https://www.google.com/#q=rohloff+mtb

halfway down page rembered the Dutchman's electronic shifter mtb....according to the stiffening old gas well owner, electronic speed brining his deteriorating skills back into ride focus ahead

answering my first and always Rollo thoughts abt

WHAT GEAR ?

HOW'S THIS WORK ON mtb ?

https://www.google.com/#tbm=shop&q=ROLOFf+BICYCLE+HUBS&spd=4830346221550752000

Sir Ridesalot

unread,
Apr 8, 2015, 6:51:21 PM4/8/15
to
That is a destroyed hub and it's clear abuse to use a 32 hole rear hub on a loaded tandem bicycle where 48 spokes are usually the recommended number. If Rolhof honours any warranty in that case then more power to their customer relations but the fact remains tthat the failure was cdaused by abuse of the hub.

Cheers

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 6:00:58 AM4/9/15
to
You wish. If it were so, anyone could be a writer, even illiterates like you.

You can lead an illiterate to the fountain of syntax but you can't make him drink of it.

LOL.

Andre Jute

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 6:33:21 AM4/9/15
to
Okay, a hub damaged by bike builder or cyclist abuse. My point is that it isn't destroyed until it can't be rebuilt, or until you can't find anyone who wants to rebuild it (the case with my Shimano internal gear hubs). Be interesting to know if Rohloff fixed this one free of charge. Maybe, if it is on that page, the guy knew he was in the wrong and just didn't send it to them.

There was a time, vaguely in memory, when Rohloff's were forbidden in tandems. Some people used them in tandems all the same, unsuccessfully if they were stupid, successfully if they possessed and applied engineering smarts, as Chalo did by redrilling the hub to 48 holes. (That's Chalo's hub on the same page, with the scheme he worked out and had Isaacs drill for him.) SJS in England had an over-ring to strengthen the flange. Maybe other schemes as well; I wasn't overly interested as I'm not a tandemist. I also vaguely remember in that same distant time one or two Rohloffs with cracked rims in what was said to be normal (i.e. heavily loaded, harsh) service, that were replaced by Rohloff free of charge because the owners had done nothing wrong.

But none of that is relevant today. I haven't heard of a cracked flange in a very long time.

Later hubs arrived with stronger flanges that were permitted in tandems. Problem solved, long since.

I take the view that if a bruiser like me can't kill a Rolloff, it's good German machinery! I even have hope for a *real* wrecker like Joerg..

Andre Jute

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 6:46:34 AM4/9/15
to
We already have four "standards" in e-bike and pedelec motor fitments, the first three fitting standard traditional frames:
1. Around a standard front axle.
2. Around a standard rear axle, with a cog or a cluster of cogs.
3. Centrally, mounted through a standard bottom bracket shell, as in the 8FUN motor sold by BMS and everyone else as an aftermarket fitment.
4. Bosch/Panasonic, central, requiring a custom frame, but so many made that effectively this is a already a common, semi-standard frame. The motors, intended for OEM users, are very expensive at retail, so there could be a burgeoning stolen market once replacements become necessary.

There are some other mounting patterns that require brackets to be welded or brazed onto frames, or even custom frames, but none of them has taken off.

Makes you wonder if Bosch and Panasonic had lack of interchangeability in mind as an anti-theft measure, and got overtaken by success.

Andre Jute

Lou Holtman

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Apr 9, 2015, 9:27:58 AM4/9/15
to
For who is the chance that the car gets stolen a requirement when buying a car? Not buying a Rohloff hub because it can get stolen? Ridiculous.

Lou

avag...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 9:44:42 AM4/9/15
to


looking over online descriptions and rebuilds for Rohlo hubs, was written FIBER COGS....

now you're the big time Rohlo user, you should know this.


regressing into your ugly imbecile stage isn't necessary.

If you were a writer you would write not fool with RBT.

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 9:56:58 AM4/9/15
to
Seems to me that what Joerg says is that with a Rohloff, because its is valuable, the risk of theft is increased. I don't think so, but his implied point, that with a Rohloff the loss will hurt more because it cost more, is valid.

I take the view that I'm not going to use crap equipment just because the good stuff may be more attractive to thieves. I just take normal care of my gear, including measures to frustrate thieves.

Andre Jute

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 10:09:00 AM4/9/15
to
On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 2:44:42 PM UTC+1, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> looking over online descriptions and rebuilds for Rohlo hubs, was written FIBER COGS....
>
> now you're the big time Rohlo user, you should know this.

I've told you before, sonny, show us so we can see for ourselves where you went wrong. You've proven unreliable and wrongheaded and just plain stupid too often for us to take anything you say on faith. SHOW US THE FIBER COGS OR APOLOGIZE FOR YOUR LIE.

> regressing into your ugly imbecile stage isn't necessary.

Like all schoolyard bullies, you like handing it out but you can't take it. The instant someone bats back your nastiness, you start whimpering like a little girl.

> If you were a writer you would write not fool with RBT.

Latest fascist craze, Jeff Daniels, RBT resident fuckwit, wants to decide how much time I'm permitted to spend on my hobby.

Andre Jute
Riding tall

Duane

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 12:23:48 PM4/9/15
to
Some of the college students around here beat their bikes up so that no
one will steal them. It's usually funny because they're mostly low end
bikes to begin with. Someone even tried marketing spray on rust.



Joerg

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 1:03:21 PM4/9/15
to
On 2015-04-08 3:46 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> J if real I dunno how you handle it. Just too much dirt/mile
>
> Rolloff MTB ? never thought of that...
>

Rohloff hubs are very popular with MTB riders in Europe. A friend
visiting Germany rented a MTB there and to his surprise it came with a
Rohloff hub. Considered almost normal there. In the US, not so, never
seen one on the trails and I see a lot of bikes there.

[...]

Joerg

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 1:13:00 PM4/9/15
to
Exactamente. To the tune of an extra $1500 loss. That's a lot of money.


>> I take the view that I'm not going to use crap equipment just because
>> the good stuff may be more attractive to thieves. I just take normal
>> care of my gear, including measures to frustrate thieves.
>>

The fact that my SUV creates a low desire among thieves was one of my
points written down on the "pro" side when deciding which one to buy.
It's too rare. Plus a stick-shift so even most joy-rider kids don't want it.

>
> Some of the college students around here beat their bikes up so that no
> one will steal them. It's usually funny because they're mostly low end
> bikes to begin with. Someone even tried marketing spray on rust.
>

In a German NG they even have a name for that: "Boruttiert" means
"munged, dirtied, uglified". Because AFAIR it was a guy with the Family
name Borutta who proposed the method.

With my MTB the theft risk is probably modest because it is often so
caked with mud that you can't even decipher the brand. My road bike is
>30 years old. Reynolds-531 frame but to normal thieves that bike looks
like it can't be hocked at all, that nobody would want it.

Lou Holtman

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 1:17:28 PM4/9/15
to
On 2015-04-09 17:03:26 +0000, Joerg said:

> On 2015-04-08 3:46 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>> J if real I dunno how you handle it. Just too much dirt/mile
>>
>> Rolloff MTB ? never thought of that...
>>
>
> Rohloff hubs are very popular with MTB riders in Europe. A friend
> visiting Germany rented a MTB there and to his surprise it came with a
> Rohloff hub. Considered almost normal there. In the US, not so, never
> seen one on the trails and I see a lot of bikes there.
>
> [...]

The idea is that it is not normal/stupid to ride with an open gearbox
in bad conditions. According to that idea a gearhub is the way to go.
If you want a wide range (MTB) and a good efficiency (sportive riding)
you end up with a Rohloff hub naturally.
Your gearbox of your car is also closed and filled with oil. No?
--

Lou

avag...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 2:38:12 PM4/9/15
to
Lou....we hear baaaad stuff abt tooling around Yurp with expensive equipment.

In Fla, I am warned that casual riding from A to B to Wal to the Superduper on your Ti or CF will find you followed by the bad guys in game format.

A Rohloff is prob worth $10 ! in 23% living in poverty among millionaires

ask Jutee

I had parts stolen from the mail 2x and once from Universal an entire truck from the UPS lot fresh from the Coast.

avag...@gmail.com

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 2:41:36 PM4/9/15
to
I believe Jeff has passed....I'm G E N E

the planetary gearbox idea is really cooool but Ima gonnna look further for MTB

sounds sloppy

opposite of what Holtman experienced.

we should give J an electronic box see how long it lasts.

AMuzi

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 3:11:39 PM4/9/15
to

Joerg

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 5:53:22 PM4/9/15
to
The gearbox in my car does not cost as much as a whole rest of the
vehicle itself. Not even close. The Rohloff does. That is a major
difference.

Lou Holtman

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 6:05:32 PM4/9/15
to
You telling us that you break everything or everything is knocked off
riding your epic trails. I was wondering you didn't mention knocking of
your rear derailleur every ride or two yet. That would also be a reason to
go for a gear hub. Are Americans so poor that they can't save up for a
Rohloff hub if that would be the solution for their kind of riding and we
Europians can? Are we making more money, are we smarter or putting our
priorities different? Just asking.

--
Lou

Joerg

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 6:15:11 PM4/9/15
to
On 2015-04-09 3:05 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>> On 2015-04-09 10:17 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On 2015-04-09 17:03:26 +0000, Joerg said:
>>>
>>>> On 2015-04-08 3:46 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> J if real I dunno how you handle it. Just too much dirt/mile
>>>>>
>>>>> Rolloff MTB ? never thought of that...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rohloff hubs are very popular with MTB riders in Europe. A friend
>>>> visiting Germany rented a MTB there and to his surprise it came with a
>>>> Rohloff hub. Considered almost normal there. In the US, not so, never
>>>> seen one on the trails and I see a lot of bikes there.
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>
>>> The idea is that it is not normal/stupid to ride with an open gearbox in
>>> bad conditions. According to that idea a gearhub is the way to go. If
>>> you want a wide range (MTB) and a good efficiency (sportive riding) you
>>> end up with a Rohloff hub naturally.
>>> Your gearbox of your car is also closed and filled with oil. No?
>>
>>
>> The gearbox in my car does not cost as much as a whole rest of the
>> vehicle itself. Not even close. The Rohloff does. That is a major difference.
>
>
> You telling us that you break everything or everything is knocked off
> riding your epic trails. I was wondering you didn't mention knocking of
> your rear derailleur every ride or two yet.


To my surprise that has never more than bent a bit. Seems to be very
sturdy because it did receive serious hits by flying rocks. A derailer
is fairly flexible, moves with the punches.


> ... That would also be a reason to
> go for a gear hub. Are Americans so poor that they can't save up for a
> Rohloff hub if that would be the solution for their kind of riding and we
> Europians can? Are we making more money, are we smarter or putting our
> priorities different? Just asking.
>

Different priorities. In America we tend to use what works and not go
overboard, then spend the saved money for other fun things. I am all for
a gear hub but not if they want a whopping $1500 without spokes, labor
or anything. Plus AFAIK then you have to use their disc because of some
special 4-hole mount and I'd like to remain independent there.

James

unread,
Apr 9, 2015, 9:14:54 PM4/9/15
to
Though it is not difficult to spend $10,000 on a bicycle these days, and
then the gear box hub is only 1/5 of the total cost.

You can of course buy cheaper gear box hubs, and they may do fine for
most people. A quick search shows you can buy a Shimano Alfine 8 speed
Di2 hub in the US for under $300, and from the same shop you can buy a
SA 3 speed gear box hub for about $100 - which would be fine for many
people who only ride on the road.

--
JS

avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 9, 2015, 9:28:53 PM4/9/15
to
Jute you are living proof a not Irish old windbag can not write

James

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Apr 9, 2015, 9:31:35 PM4/9/15
to
Good questions.

I met a group of 3 riders a month or two ago, who were all riding road
bikes on the road - and flat roads at that, yet one guy had ripped his
rear derailleur off and broken numerous spokes in the rear wheel. It
was not a case of the derailleur getting caught on the spokes at all,
instead he rode over some of these seed pods, and one had caused all
this damaged.

https://photos.travelblog.org/Photos/30994/393104/f/3732861-Seed-Pod-of-the-Poinciana-Tree-1.jpg

The seed pods are very strong.

--
JS


avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 9, 2015, 9:37:28 PM4/9/15
to
Lou

owning a rohloff ? be serious

tooo Euro...

reasonable expenditures for reasonable, effective bicycle machinery DOES NOT CONJURE that

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 10, 2015, 9:19:29 AM4/10/15
to
Surprising number of Thorn touring bikes with Rohloff boxes in Australia; very active high-mile owners. I have no idea what they cost landed at your door Down Under but in England you can get a high spec one for under three grand sterling, which would be about 2400STG for export after you remove the VAT.

A Rohloff is a good option for the cheap rich. You spend the money once, and then you can ride 5000km for about 15 Euro, which is what the oil change kit costs (if you're a high-miler you buy the oil in a huge can and it costs much less per service). The only other service cost specifically related to the Rolloff is a shot of any grease you keep for the rest of your bike into the EXT box. That's it, every 5000km/3000m or once a year, forever. And then you leave your Rohloff to your grandchildren.

Andre Jute
The German heirloom

Joerg

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Apr 10, 2015, 12:47:53 PM4/10/15
to
According to Andre they don't last. I am pretty brutal on bikes, lots of
offroad hill sections that have to be hammered up.


>> -- JS
>
> Surprising number of Thorn touring bikes with Rohloff boxes in
> Australia; very active high-mile owners. I have no idea what they
> cost landed at your door Down Under but in England you can get a high
> spec one for under three grand sterling, which would be about 2400STG
> for export after you remove the VAT.
>

That looks like a good deal. Not so much for this area though because
here you need a sturdy mountain bike, else it'll break.


> A Rohloff is a good option for the cheap rich. You spend the money
> once, and then you can ride 5000km for about 15 Euro, which is what
> the oil change kit costs (if you're a high-miler you buy the oil in a
> huge can and it costs much less per service). The only other service
> cost specifically related to the Rolloff is a shot of any grease you
> keep for the rest of your bike into the EXT box. That's it, every
> 5000km/3000m or once a year, forever. And then you leave your Rohloff
> to your grandchildren.
>

Does Rohloff offer a chain protector for a full suspension mountain
bike? That would be the whole point of having a Rohloff in the first
place, the avoidance of the frequent chain cleanings.


> Andre Jute The German heirloom
>

Are you from Germany?

jbeattie

unread,
Apr 10, 2015, 2:00:26 PM4/10/15
to
How many Europeans are using Rohloff hubs? A lot of people don't like the drag, weight, expense, complexity. There is little if any long-term pay-off for the type of riding they do. I know a lot of people who race mountain bikes -- pros, top national riders, strong local riders, and none of them use Rohloff hubs. None of my CX friends own them. I would think that if they were clearly superior for the type of riding done by this cohort (and the length of time they keep their bikes), I would see at least one. Rohloff makes a great hub with lots of benefits for a certain crowd, but it is not the crowd I ride with.

-- Jay Beattie.

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 10, 2015, 2:03:21 PM4/10/15
to
People in the States and Canada have Thorns. It's a bit expensive in carriage, but I haven't heard any complaints. Sheldon Brown, the world's most famous bike mechanic (obituary in The Times of London for a bike mechanic in a small town outside Boston is going some, I tell you!) had one. Those are sturdy, hefty bikes. But for a German it may be as suitable to import a German bike. The after-Christmas sales usually include decent Rohloff bikes at under two thousand Euro, though you have to know what you're doing to sort the chaff from the gold.

> > A Rohloff is a good option for the cheap rich. You spend the money
> > once, and then you can ride 5000km for about 15 Euro, which is what
> > the oil change kit costs (if you're a high-miler you buy the oil in a
> > huge can and it costs much less per service). The only other service
> > cost specifically related to the Rolloff is a shot of any grease you
> > keep for the rest of your bike into the EXT box. That's it, every
> > 5000km/3000m or once a year, forever. And then you leave your Rohloff
> > to your grandchildren.
>
> Does Rohloff offer a chain protector for a full suspension mountain
> bike? That would be the whole point of having a Rohloff in the first
> place, the avoidance of the frequent chain cleanings.

Rohloff doesn't, but another German firm, Hebie, offers the Chainglider. See the first post in this thread, which is actually about the Chainglider, and has just been deraiiled to Rohloff by that ignorant clown Daniels.

> > Andre Jute
>>The German heirloom
> >
>
> Are you from Germany?

"Heirloom" refers to my joke further up about leaving the Rohloff to your grandchildren. I live in Ireland. But I used to have an office in Cologne, and I liked going to the little opera houses, so wherever I worked, often my offices in London or Paris or Rome, sometimes the other side of the world because I was the company troubleshooter and went where the chairman sent me, every Friday morning I'd discover I was urgently required in Cologne and call them to fuel the Laverda I kept there. The company accountants curled up with acid stomachs at the prospect of the shareholders ever discovering how much jet fuel I burned on their dollar to go to the opera. I used to drive Porsche until I got middle-aged and switched to Maserati and then Bentley. I buy my bikes in Germany. My current daily bike is a Utopia Kranich. -- see http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html

Andre Jute

Lou Holtman

unread,
Apr 10, 2015, 3:05:18 PM4/10/15
to
There is no drag. There is no complexity. The weight is insignificant. Do
you think riding in muddy conditions with an open gearbox is wise? Please
let the pro riders and top national riders out of the equation. In really
tough and muddy conditions I see a lot of trouble with a derailleur system,
skipping chains, chain suck are the main issues. Why do you think the pro
CX riders change their bike for a clean one every 1 or 2 laps?
--
Lou

jbeattie

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Apr 10, 2015, 5:31:57 PM4/10/15
to
See http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf I'm also repeating reports by some people that certain ratios are especially draggy. And the Rohloff is a complex system. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/images/speedbild2.jpeg If the transmission goes bad, you have to ship it off for service or buy a replacement, AFAIK. http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/_migrated/content_uploads/3_Service_En_2014_06_web.pdf

Assuming the bike is built for SS and doesn't need a chain tensioner, then I would definitely agree that IGHs avoid known problems with normal derailleur systems. There are some real benefits to IGHs, and I'm not denying that. But suggesting that Americans are crazy for not spending $1,200 USD for a Rohloff IGH is over the top, particularly since they are probably most beneficial in situations that people never see (e.g. deep mud). I've ridden my CX bike in deep mud, and shifting is not great, but it still works well enough -- and then I hose it off. I've never been so disappointed with shifting performance that I felt the need for an IGH.

-- Jay Beattie.

T0m $herman

unread,
Apr 11, 2015, 2:51:54 AM4/11/15
to
On 4/9/2015 5:05 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> ...Are Americans so poor that they can't save up for a
> Rohloff hub if that would be the solution for their kind of riding and we
> Europians can? Are we making more money...

To the last question, yes since the "Reagan Revolution" (really a G.H.W.
Bush thing, but I disgress...).

--
T0m $herm@n

T0m $herman

unread,
Apr 11, 2015, 3:03:06 AM4/11/15
to
On 4/10/2015 11:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
> Are you from Germany?

Remittance man from SA is the word on the street.

--
T0m $herm@n

T0m $herman

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Apr 11, 2015, 3:05:18 AM4/11/15
to
On 4/8/2015 5:36 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 9:28:13 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 1:52:20 AM UTC+1, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Jute
>>>
>>> you are an ugly pig and a barbarian vanity press author
>>
>> According to Gene Daniels, the group quarterwit, Secker & Warburg, Harper, Bantam, W W Norton, St Martin's, Warner Books, Sphere, Rotovision of Switzerland, Batsford, David & Charles, etc, etc, most of the world's top publishers, who all published my books, are all "vanity publishers". And my Swedish, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, many Spanish, Japanese, Greek, etc, etc, publishers in translation, all "vanity presses", huh?
>>
>> Yeah? You're wanking, Daniels.
>>
>> Add another subject of which the poor fuckwit Daniels know absolutely nothing. That completes an entire Dewey classification of which Gene Daniels is ignorant. Mind you, to be fair, this clown Daniels probably thinks Dewey was a "vanity publisher".
>>
>>> the info sez FIBER COGS...the rebuild video sez FIBER COGS.
>>>
>>> MAN TAKES HIS APRAT AND SEZ FIBER COGS
>>
>> Well, show it to us, sonny; we promise not to laugh at the gullible hick from the sticks.
>>
>> Andre Jute
>> How difficult could it be to stick to what you know? The rest of us manage just fine.
>
> you pay they print
>
Such as Subaru?

RIP, Roi Tov.

--
T0m $herm@n

T0m $herman

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Apr 11, 2015, 3:15:59 AM4/11/15
to
On 4/7/2015 6:54 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> BTW, Oil of Rohloff is wonderful stuff. It is light and clean and very economical as you just lay a light bead on top of the chain, so that a little bottle goes a long way. I bought six of the little bottles with my bike, and in 4506km used less than half of one bottle. The stuff's also cheap, about five Euro a bottle. It spreads and clings tenaciously, though, so you want to be careful where else it gets on your bike because it just doesn't want to be wiped off. It doesn't stain clothes, which is good.

How does it taste on a salad?

--
T0m $herm@n

T0m $herman

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Apr 11, 2015, 3:23:20 AM4/11/15
to
On 4/9/2015 11:23 AM, Duane wrote:
> Some of the college students around here beat their bikes up so that no
> one will steal them. It's usually funny because they're mostly low end
> bikes to begin with. Someone even tried marketing spray on rust.

A significant number of college students like to destroy parked bicycles
belonging to other people, after they (the students, not the bikes) have
consumed copious quantities of ethanol.

--
T0m $herm@n

Lou Holtman

unread,
Apr 11, 2015, 3:57:16 AM4/11/15
to
jbeattie schreef op 10-4-2015 om 23:31:
Hey Jay I'm not saying that anyone, Amaricans or Europians, should spend
whatever a Rohloff hub costs. I was wondering why you see more Rohloff
hubs in Europe on normal bikes (I count 5 or 6 in the bike parking at
work just on utility bikes) than in the USA. Ride whatever you like, or
can affort. I will only respond if the arguments to not buy a Rohloff
hub or an other IGH are not correct such as drag, complexity or weight etc.

Lou

Andre Jute

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Apr 11, 2015, 5:11:21 AM4/11/15
to
On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 7:34:09 PM UTC+1, avag...@gmail.com wrote:

> Rollo's have fiber cogs. How spend that much for fiber cogs in the sweet spot is beyond me [snip
>
> INCREDULOUS

This stupid lie by Gene Daniels has now been admitted to be a lie by Gene Daniels, characteristically not where he told the lie and was faced up with it, and tried five times to deny it, but in another, moribund thread -- https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.bicycles.tech/qHX7-pLJ3NU -- where he hopes his admission will escape notice; also, typically, his admission is bookended by dully unimaginative ad hominem abuse:

On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 4:41:20 PM UTC+1, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> aww Jutee you are a dumb pig.
>
> I could not find the fiber references only refer by memory which is accurate.
>
> now why anyone would begin shouting liar at me I dunno.
>
> fiber....that's what the rebuilders said////for lightness.
>
> you stand for.....you should stay or your continent bully your nabs who would run over your pipe again

We've now established that Gene Daniels is a liar, and that instead of admitting he made up the "fiber cogs" and apologizing when called on his lie, tried to cover up the lie by repeated denials and personal attacks on me, and even attacks on Rohloff riders at large. The proof is in this thread.

You're scum, Daniels. As for buillying you, I wouldn't even notice a zero-achievement, zero-entertainment-value, zero-knowledge loser like you if you didn't continually try to wreck my threads in the hope that people will instead read your illiterate crap. It's not me keeping people from reading your wretched drooling, sonny, it's your stupidity and dishonesty and ignorance.

Andre Jute




Andre Jute

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Apr 11, 2015, 5:29:03 AM4/11/15
to
That must be only on Lidl Tommi's street corner, where Lidl Tommi is his own gang of one because no one else wants him.

Andre Jute
Now, if you poor fellow had said "gigolo"...

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 11, 2015, 5:37:33 AM4/11/15
to
Good. Something akin to M. Graham walnut oil which I'm more likely to have on my bike because I paint with it, whereas the Oil of Rohloff sits in an old ali pilot's case I have repurposed as a bicycle toolbox; the first post in this thread will explain to you why the Oil of Rohloff is not carried on the bike.

Andre Jute
Polymath

avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 11, 2015, 6:45:10 AM4/11/15
to
On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 6:33:21 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 11:51:21 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 11:18:38 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 3:14:03 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
> > > > On 2015-04-07 5:39 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> >
> > > > > These days it's north of a lot more than 50K. But a downhiller like
> > > > > you shouldn't make his judgement on what tourers do, but on what the
> > > > > mudpluggers achieve: none of them have ever wrecked a Rohloff box
> > > > > terminally. Rohloff installations are headed for 200,000 and there
> > > > > isn't even one that has been terminated.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Oh there are. Example:
> > > >
> > > > http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-141.html
> > > >
> > > > And when that stuff happens with a $1500 product I'd like it to be
> > > > covered by a truly honored lifetime warranty. Like on a pricey kitchen
> > > > faucet here where they sent us a new one for free.
> > >
> > > That's not a destroyed hub. You send it to Rohloff and they fit the gubbins to a new shell. The only question is who pays for. In the normal course of events, regardless of the age of the hub, Rohloff does not charge users who change the oil in their hubs regularly.
> > >
> > > In any event, you can now get 36 hole Rohloff hubs, and a wrecker like you should!
> > >
> > > Andre Jute
> >
> > That is a destroyed hub and it's clear abuse to use a 32 hole rear hub on a loaded tandem bicycle where 48 spokes are usually the recommended number. If Rolhof honours any warranty in that case then more power to their customer relations but the fact remains tthat the failure was cdaused by abuse of the hub.
> >
> > Cheers
>
> Okay, a hub damaged by bike builder or cyclist abuse. My point is that it isn't destroyed until it can't be rebuilt, or until you can't find anyone who wants to rebuild it (the case with my Shimano internal gear hubs). Be interesting to know if Rohloff fixed this one free of charge. Maybe, if it is on that page, the guy knew he was in the wrong and just didn't send it to them.
>
> There was a time, vaguely in memory, when Rohloff's were forbidden in tandems. Some people used them in tandems all the same, unsuccessfully if they were stupid, successfully if they possessed and applied engineering smarts, as Chalo did by redrilling the hub to 48 holes. (That's Chalo's hub on the same page, with the scheme he worked out and had Isaacs drill for him.) SJS in England had an over-ring to strengthen the flange. Maybe other schemes as well; I wasn't overly interested as I'm not a tandemist. I also vaguely remember in that same distant time one or two Rohloffs with cracked rims in what was said to be normal (i.e. heavily loaded, harsh) service, that were replaced by Rohloff free of charge because the owners had done nothing wrong.
>
> But none of that is relevant today. I haven't heard of a cracked flange in a very long time.
>
> Later hubs arrived with stronger flanges that were permitted in tandems. Problem solved, long since.
>
> I take the view that if a bruiser like me can't kill a Rolloff, it's good German machinery! I even have hope for a *real* wrecker like Joerg..
>
> Andre Jute

BRUISER ? ura heart patient on an electrocycle

rebuild wahtsamatter ? yawl cannah afford a new one ? eyeyyhahhahhahhahha ! PIKERS

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 11, 2015, 6:57:08 AM4/11/15
to
On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 10:31:57 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 12:05:18 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > jbeattie <x> wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 3:05:32 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >> Joerg <x> wrote:
> > >>> On 2015-04-09 10:17 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >>>> On 2015-04-09 17:03:26 +0000, Joerg said:
>
> > >>>>> Rohloff hubs are very popular with MTB riders in Europe. A friend
> > >>>>> visiting Germany rented a MTB there and to his surprise it came with a
> > >>>>> Rohloff hub. Considered almost normal there. In the US, not so, never
> > >>>>> seen one on the trails and I see a lot of bikes there.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> [...]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The idea is that it is not normal/stupid to ride with an open gearbox in
> > >>>> bad conditions. According to that idea a gearhub is the way to go. If
> > >>>> you want a wide range (MTB) and a good efficiency (sportive riding) you
> > >>>> end up with a Rohloff hub naturally.
> > >>>> Your gearbox of your car is also closed and filled with oil. No?
> > >>>
> > > How many Europeans are using Rohloff hubs? A lot of people don't like
> > > the drag, weight, expense, complexity.

What drag and what weight? A Rohloff system complete weighs about the same as a derailleur system complete, and is between 1 and 4% less efficient than common top of the line derailleur systems, in return for which you don't have to clean it or tune it or spend constantly on replacement parts, and you can change multiple gears at once, even at standstill, a very considerable boon for utility riding. Check out the first post in this thread about maintenance saving. (Admittedly, you can get similar maintenance savings with the cheaper Shimano hub gearboxes, but they didn't last well in my hands. Note however, Dutch and continental experience, where service is available, unlike here, is different for the Shimano gearboxes.)

As for the complexity, it's a bullshit argument. Complexity matters only if it causes breakdowns or complicated or expensive service requirements. None of this is true of the Rolloff. The Rohloff is deliberately designed and built like the best agricultural machinery, so that it and lasts forever, so complexity is irrelevant. The Rohloff is also designed to minimize and simplify the service requirement. Once a year or every 3000 miles you buy a $20 kit kit, unscrew a drainplug, screw in the syringe, put in cleaning oil, ride the bike a bit, drain the cleaning oil, put in the running oil, screw in the drain plug. Also, at the same time, you undo one thumbscrew on the gear cable end box, commonly called the klickbox, shoot some grease (any type) in there, and do up the thumbscrew again. This takes about an hour at a leisurely pace but needn't take more than twenty minutes, part of it spent riding. What's so onerous about that?

>>>There is little if any long-term
> > > pay-off for the type of riding they do.

They haven't thought it through, or they haven't taken a systems approach.

>>>I know a lot of people who race
> > > mountain bikes -- pros, top national riders, strong local riders, and
> > > none of them use Rohloff hubs. None of my CX friends own them. I would
> > > think that if they were clearly superior for the type of riding done by
> > > this cohort (and the length of time they keep their bikes), I would see
> > > at least one.

I've seen only one Rohloff hub besides mine. There are coming up to 200,000 Rohloff hubs in all the world. Most of them are thought to belong to mudpluggers (Herr Rohloff's sport when he was young; he designed the box for them). The touring and utility and road fitments of Rohloff must be a minority. So I wouldn't expect to see many.

>>>Rohloff makes a great hub with lots of benefits for a
> > > certain crowd, but it is not the crowd I ride with.

Oh, it is, for some of them. They just haven't discovered it yet. When they do, they'll bend your ear about it till you want to scream.

> > > -- Jay Beattie.
> >
> > There is no drag. There is no complexity. The weight is insignificant. Do
> > you think riding in muddy conditions with an open gearbox is wise? Please
> > let the pro riders and top national riders out of the equation. In really
> > tough and muddy conditions I see a lot of trouble with a derailleur system,
> > skipping chains, chain suck are the main issues. Why do you think the pro
> > CX riders change their bike for a clean one every 1 or 2 laps?
> > --
> > Lou
>
> See http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf

Everyone has seen that report, and the many misinterpretations of it. Unless you're an elite racer with several other bikes standing by to change onto, the very slight extra drag of a Rohloff hub gearbox is irrelevant. Your friends haven't put their minds in gear yet: Berto was working with perfectly new and clean derailleur systems. It is widely known that the efficiency of derailleur systems drop sharply once they get dirty, or worn to the eventual point where they seize up, zero movement. It follows that on your average derailleur system the efficiency is less than 100%, and generally by much more than 4%. At this point, instantly, a Rohloff becomes more efficient, because it is closed, cannot get dirty, and for real-life purposes it is wear-proof, and anyway, such wear as does occur (gears bedding in at about 5000 miles) are beneficial in reducing drag; otherwise such drag as it proffers is constant.

> I'm also repeating reports by some people that certain ratios are especially draggy.

This is a psychosomatic effect. At the interface of the two gear clusters in the Rohloff gearbox when it is relatively new (and remember what Chalo said: a Rohloff is just starting to be run in when a Shimano HGB lies itself down to die) it is noisier than elsewhere, where a run-in gearbox is generally silent. This sound has much of the quality of human sighing or gasping for breath, just like a cyclist pedalling hard. Check Berto's numbers, and you'll discover this complaint isn't real.

>And the Rohloff is a complex system. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/images/speedbild2.jpeg If the transmission goes bad, you have to ship it off for service or buy a replacement, AFAIK.

No. You very next link is to part of a service manual. If you get and read the whole document, which comes in three parts, you'll discover that you can do virtually all replacements and repairs yourself, and that the factory gives you fully illustrated instructions that no American manufacturer can match, and videos on their netsite. But most people just find it more convenient to send the box to Rohloff, who generally turns it over in a couple of days and sends it back by courier, at their expense. Tourers in Outer Bttfck find this very convenient because Fedex is where their tools ain't. You're looking at it wrong, as a burden rather than a very convenient service unique to membership of the Rohloff club.

> http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/_migrated/content_uploads/3_Service_En_2014_06_web.pdf

There are also local, national or regional Rohloff service agents fully trained to perform any necessary repair. In any event, these instances of a hub being returned to Rolloff are so rare and wonderful that they are individually known to the community, and thus loom larger than, for instance, my two worn out Shimano IGH, which I didn't even think worth mentioning when they happened, several years ago.

> Assuming the bike is built for SS and doesn't need a chain tensioner, then I would definitely agree that IGHs avoid known problems with normal derailleur systems.

There are Rohloff mounting systems, so many that a complex decision tree is necessary, available for repurposed frames and also purpose-made frames. The purpose made frames don't require a chain tensioner or even a torque bar; generaly a frame must have sliders at the frame ends or provision for an eccentric bottom bracket to avoid a chain tensioner. Bikes supplied new with Rohloff boxes almost always do not have a chain tensioner.

>There are some real benefits to IGHs, and I'm not denying that. But suggesting that Americans are crazy for not spending $1,200 USD for a Rohloff IGH is over the top, particularly since they are probably most beneficial in situations that people never see (e.g. deep mud).

The question is really whether cyclists aren't silly for spending money again and again, and their valuable time too, on derailleurs when instead they can buy a Rohloff once and forget it.

>I've ridden my CX bike in deep mud, and shifting is not great, but it still works well enough -- and then I hose it off.

You'd go faster on a Rohloff after about three yards, the moment the first speck of mud gets on your derailleur and reduces its efficiency to below that of the sealed Rohloff.

>I've never been so disappointed with shifting performance that I felt the need for an IGH.

You have much IGH experience? It's a conveninece that grows on you.

I've been on IGH since 2002 and simply cannot imagine going back to the nuisance and inconvenience on the road of derailleurs, and their constant time-wasting demands for attention.

The only time I've ever had a derailleur collapse and lock up the rear wheel, it had the good sense to do so about twenty paces from the gate of my LBS... I gave the bike to the LBS free of charge and ordered a bike from Gazelle with an IGH.

Andre Jute

James

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Apr 11, 2015, 10:40:15 PM4/11/15
to
On 11/04/15 18:05, Lou Holtman wrote:

> Hey Jay I'm not saying that anyone, Amaricans or Europians, should spend
> whatever a Rohloff hub costs. I was wondering why you see more Rohloff
> hubs in Europe on normal bikes (I count 5 or 6 in the bike parking at
> work just on utility bikes) than in the USA. Ride whatever you like, or
> can affort. I will only respond if the arguments to not buy a Rohloff
> hub or an other IGH are not correct such as drag, complexity or weight etc.
>

Last I checked, the weight of a Rohloff hub was quite a bit more than a
rear hub with a cassette, front and rear derailleur and one chainring.
Did I not add up the weight of components correctly?

--
JS

Joe Riel

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Apr 11, 2015, 11:28:55 PM4/11/15
to
Besides the price, the wide range and rather coarse steps is a bit
off-putting. My normal road bike has a gear range (highest/lowest)
under 3, the Moulton's is 3.3. The Rohloff's range is over 5. I'd
prefer something with finer steps and smaller range. I might consider
one for the Moulton---its original Suntour shifters has remained in
friction mode 'cause the indexed never worked properly, and the shifting
on it really sucks. But the price would be hard to justify. I'd
presumably be stuck with a chain tensioner.

--
Joe Riel

Lou Holtman

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Apr 12, 2015, 2:07:09 AM4/12/15
to
James schreef op 12-4-2015 om 4:40:
I don't know. For a ATB system, the intended use, weight difference is
490 gr compared to Shimano XT (according to wikipedia article).
Insignificant for off road use. My Rohloff equipped hardtail ATB weighs
less than all the Full Suspension ATB's some off my riding buddies use
or the hardtails with lesser parts than Shimano XT. Still they say my
bike is heavy just because all the weight in in the back.

Lou

Lou Holtman

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Apr 12, 2015, 2:12:10 AM4/12/15
to
Joe Riel schreef op 12-4-2015 om 5:28:
The 'big' 13% steps is a 'problem' for road use. Rohloff is meant for
ATB use or loaded touring were the gear range is necessary and the big
steps less important. My road bikes have derailleur system except the
winterbike where maintenance/reliability is more important.

Lou

Ralph Barone

unread,
Apr 12, 2015, 2:26:31 AM4/12/15
to
Could you squeeze a 2 gear cluster onto a Rohloff hub? A 17-16 with a
derailleur would split the Rohloff ratios quite nicely (admittedly, by
throwing away the one main advantage of the hub).

James

unread,
Apr 12, 2015, 4:19:53 AM4/12/15
to
To be fair, the wide range is supposed to make it comparable to MTB (and
touring bike) gears. I agree that on a road bike the gear steps are too
coarse, but that's not what the beast is meant for.

--
JS

James

unread,
Apr 12, 2015, 4:22:45 AM4/12/15
to
You can get SA IGH that takes a cassette. You can then effectively do
away with the triple chainring and front derailleur.

--
JS

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 12, 2015, 7:12:06 AM4/12/15
to
On Sunday, April 12, 2015 at 9:22:45 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
> On 12/04/15 16:26, Ralph Barone wrote:
> > Lou Holtman <@> wrote:
> >> Joe Riel schreef op 12-4-2015 om 5:28:
Barone needn't wreck the advantages of the Rohloff to get close-coupled gear steps on a Rohloff installation. He can fit Florian Schlumpff's two speed bottom bracket gearbox, and then still have all the Rolloff advantages, including the capability and advantages of a totally enclosed chain by fitting a Chainglider (which is the subject of this thread -- see first post).

Andre Jute

avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 12, 2015, 9:03:20 AM4/12/15
to
so post links describing the Rollo's innards ?

Frank Krygowski

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Apr 12, 2015, 10:25:44 AM4/12/15
to
That's a popular setup with Bike Friday folding bikes. See "What is the
SRAM 3x9 Dual Drive? " at https://www.bikefriday.com/bicycles/faqs/

(However, our Fridays have more conventional gears: front triple
cranks, 9 speed rear derailleurs.)


--
- Frank Krygowski

Ralph Barone

unread,
Apr 12, 2015, 11:49:12 AM4/12/15
to
Except the Schlumpf comes with either a 1.65:1 or 2.5:1 ratio. To "fill in
the holes" on a Rohloff, you would be looking either for a 1:08.1 or two
1.04:1 ratios. Now it may be that the Schlumpf actually splits a ratio
further up in the box, but then you're back to that annoying "up one on
this shifter and down four on the other" that so confuses people with
derailleurs.

PS: Thread drift happens. Live with it.

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 12, 2015, 4:32:09 PM4/12/15
to
On Sunday, April 12, 2015 at 4:28:55 AM UTC+1, JoeRiel wrote:
If the Rohloff had less range, the roadies would whine that it doesn't have enough range. But if you consider a big range a disadvantage, there are the Shimano 8-speeds with a range around 300%, which I found quite adequate even in my hilly terrain until I moved up a particularly steep hill. I have tables for gear-inch developments in the Shimano's gears, and speeds, for various chainring/sprocket/cadence combos, if you are really interested, and can publish them; just ask. Samples for Rohloff are here: http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGHebieChainglider.html

Andre Jute

Andre Jute

unread,
Apr 12, 2015, 5:01:16 PM4/12/15
to
On Sunday, April 12, 2015 at 4:49:12 PM UTC+1, Ralph Barone wrote:
A few people use double chainrings and front derailleurs with Rohloff HGB; they think it's the bee's knees.

To be fair, the drop handlebar crowd among the tourers do occasionally mention that they would like narrower brackets at the top of the Rohloff range; they're generally guys with road racing backgrounds.

> PS: Thread drift happens. Live with it.

A chain that goes 3500 miles without any cleaning or lubrication added is a genuine technical advance, and it seems likely to hit my arbitrary target of 4506km, but you guys want to talk about a gearbox I've had for six or eight years, and that Chalo had for several more years, and that Sheldon had long ago, that you could have asked Lou about for years and years, and that Pete Creswell and I have discussed here before without anyone else showing much interest? Weird, if you ask me, and more than a little behind the wave. You guys had better not take up surfing when you retire...

Andre Jute

John B. Slocomb

unread,
Apr 12, 2015, 8:53:54 PM4/12/15
to
Or use a two or three chain rings and shift the front, which would be
a relatively easy modification.

A 50-16, for example, gives a 84.38 gear inches while a 49-16 ration
is 82.69 which is less then a shift from a 16 to 17 tooth cassette cog
which is from 84.38 to 79.41.

--
Cheers,

John B.

avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 12, 2015, 9:25:20 PM4/12/15
to
MERELY a curiosity

https://www.google.com/#q=ROHLOFF+BICYCLE+REAR+HUB&tbm=shop

as for the chain guard what is real is chain cleaning and lubing is necessary o matter what Jute sez.

but the Hebe works only with an internal hub.

anyway...what's the use able temp range for a Rollo ? run Madison in January ?

Ralph Barone

unread,
Apr 12, 2015, 11:48:16 PM4/12/15
to
That's probably the easiest way to split the ratios on a Rohloff, but rear
derailleurs shift better than the front ones, so I was just exploring the
idea space.

John B. Slocomb

unread,
Apr 13, 2015, 7:25:55 AM4/13/15
to
Yes, that's true, but I thought that the rear derailer and chain
tensioning arm was what the internal-gear-heads bragged about not
having :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 13, 2015, 8:33:35 AM4/13/15
to
enter the laser controlled front deray

Frank Krygowski

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Apr 13, 2015, 10:43:13 AM4/13/15
to
I've still got half-step gearing on three old bikes. That means the
freewheels are wide spaced, and the two big chainrings are very close in
tooth count - for example, 52 & 47 teeth.

When chainring tooth counts are that close, shifting between them is
very easy. It's nowhere near as difficult as, say, shifting 42 to 52.

Not that I'm advocating half-step gearing, BTW. Modern setups do shift
easier.

--
- Frank Krygowski

jbeattie

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Apr 13, 2015, 1:59:48 PM4/13/15
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On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 3:57:08 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
<SNIP>

> What drag and what weight? A Rohloff system complete weighs about the same as a derailleur system complete, and is between 1 and 4% less efficient than common top of the line derailleur systems, in return for which you don't have to clean it or tune it or spend constantly on replacement parts, and you can change multiple gears at once, even at standstill, a very considerable boon for utility riding. Check out the first post in this thread about maintenance saving. (Admittedly, you can get similar maintenance savings with the cheaper Shimano hub gearboxes, but they didn't last well in my hands. Note however, Dutch and continental experience, where service is available, unlike here, is different for the Shimano gearboxes.)

There is a weight penalty for a road bike -- between one and two pounds, and it's all in the back. But aside from that (which isn't meaningful for some people), I was wondering about the long-term cost savings. According to Lou, chain life for his Rohloff (no chaincase) is about the same as the chain life for his derailleur bike. Lou, correct me if I am wrong. So, you would have savings on cassettes but not necessarily chains. The next question is what is the cost/life span of a Rohloff cog.

According to that Oracle eBay, Rohloff cogs range between $32 and $54. A Rohloff cog is $40 at JensonUSA. http://www.jensonusa.com/!GU7rsFY-j1-N4AV3FRHh0w!/Rohloff-Replacement-Cog

The Tiagra level cassette on my commuter bike cost $30. http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=6706&category=41
I don't know the lifespan of a Rohloff cog, but it is probably longer than my cassette -- plus you can flip them. Cassette life varies depending on how diligent you are changing chains. I'd be curious to see how the cassette and cog compare.

I agree that if you don't mind the weight and the absence of STI shifters, some oddities in terms of shifting (backing off to get a gear), 14 gears instead of 18/20/22, wider steps, adding oil and cost, increased friction (not making that up; it's been measured), then it's a great system. You can shift when stopped. I assume it doesn't miss gears and sticking cables don't have the same effect (e.g. ghost shifting, etc.) It lasts forever and hoses off easier.
It probably makes a superior MTB mud bike/heavy tourer.

-- Jay Beattie.

avag...@gmail.com

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Apr 13, 2015, 2:21:28 PM4/13/15
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Lou Holtman

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Apr 13, 2015, 2:27:31 PM4/13/15
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That depends on the type front derailleur.





--

Lou

Lou Holtman

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Apr 13, 2015, 2:43:45 PM4/13/15
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On 2015-04-13 17:59:45 +0000, jbeattie said:

> On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 3:57:08 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> <SNIP>
>
>> What drag and what weight? A Rohloff system complete weighs about the
>> same as a derailleur system complete, and is between 1 and 4% less
>> efficient than common top of the line derailleur systems, in return for
>> which you don't have to clean it or tune it or spend constantly on
>> replacement parts, and you can change multiple gears at once, even at
>> standstill, a very considerable boon for utility riding. Check out the
>> first post in this thread about maintenance saving. (Admittedly, you
>> can get similar maintenance savings with the cheaper Shimano hub
>> gearboxes, but they didn't last well in my hands. Note however, Dutch
>> and continental experience, where service is available, unlike here, is
>> different for the Shimano gearboxes.)
>
> There is a weight penalty for a road bike -- between one and two
> pounds, and it's all in the back. But aside from that (which isn't
> meaningful for some people), I was wondering about the long-term cost
> savings. According to Lou, chain life for his Rohloff (no chaincase)
> is about the same as the chain life for his derailleur bike. Lou,
> correct me if I am wrong.

Ridden in the same conditions I experience no difference.

> So, you would have savings on cassettes but not necessarily chains.
> The next question is what is the cost/life span of a Rohloff cog.
>
> According to that Oracle eBay, Rohloff cogs range between $32 and $54.
> A Rohloff cog is $40 at JensonUSA.
> http://www.jensonusa.com/!GU7rsFY-j1-N4AV3FRHh0w!/Rohloff-Replacement-Cog
>
>
> The Tiagra level cassette on my commuter bike cost $30.
> http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=6706&category=41
>
> I don't know the lifespan of a Rohloff cog, but it is probably longer
> than my cassette -- plus you can flip them. Cassette life varies
> depending on how diligent you are changing chains. I'd be curious to
> see how the cassette and cog compare.
> I agree that if you don't mind the weight and the absence of STI
> shifters, some oddities in terms of shifting (backing off to get a
> gear), 14 gears instead of 18/20/22, wider steps, adding oil and cost,
> increased friction (not making that up; it's been measured), then it's
> a great system. You can shift when stopped. I assume it doesn't miss
> gears and sticking cables don't have the same effect (e.g. ghost
> shifting, etc.) It lasts forever and hoses off easier.It probably makes
> a superior MTB mud bike/heavy tourer.-- Jay Beattie.

You got it. No more no less. But if I was commuting in your horrible
weather I would ride a bike like this:

http://www.santosbikes.com/fietsen/lite-serie/race-lite

with dynohub of course.


--

Lou

James

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Apr 13, 2015, 3:59:09 PM4/13/15
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On 14/04/15 04:43, Lou Holtman wrote:

>
> You got it. No more no less. But if I was commuting in your horrible
> weather I would ride a bike like this:
>
> http://www.santosbikes.com/fietsen/lite-serie/race-lite
>
> with dynohub of course.
>
>

That looks nice. What does one of those bikes cost?

--
JS

Andre Jute

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Apr 13, 2015, 4:04:51 PM4/13/15
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In theory a Rohloff chain should last longer than a derailleur chain because the Rohloff has a straight run and the chain doesn't get twisted. In practice, measurement is bedevilled by the fact that most people use derailleur chains (rather than singlespeed chains) anyway because they're cheaper in the store because they're more common/moved in bigger unit numbers. For instance, instead of KMC Z8 chain, I use the X8, a derailleur chain.

How much better chain life, if any, you will get depends on how you treat your chain.

The Rohloff cog is widely thought to be superior to almost anything else you can buy; everyone gets extraordinary mileages on it, but it varies greatly according to what they got before. People who're hard on other gear is hard on Rohloff externals too. It would be interesting to know what mileage Chalo, north of 350 pounds, gets out of Rohloff cogs.

Personally, I never got much over a thousand miles from a cog before I switched to Rohloff, and my Rohloff cog is now at 8000km/5000m with no signs of wear, still on its first side. But I've concluded that the Nexus cogs and chainrings I used before are utter crap, because that dire record can't be all down to me.

***

A lot of the resistance to the Rohloff is from looking at the available facts carelessly. You say the Rohloff has more drag than a derailleur system, and so it does, when both are new and utterly clean. But the Rohloff hardly wears, and what wear there is probably reduces drag, and the Rohloff's drag cannot be increased by mud or other dirt. But we all know derailleurs wear, and their performance is affected by mud and other dirt. That is one of the reasons why Berto makes a point of mentioning which of the items under test were new. So the moment your derailleur system gets splashed with mud, it becomes less efficient than the Rohloff. The likelihood is that for most of its operating life, in most conditions, the Rohloff has less drag than a derailleur system. The only people who can actually use that temporary superiority of a derailleur system when it is clean are elite athletes with plenty of clean, new bikes standing by to jump onto when the first one gets dirty and draggy.

Chances are that you would be faster autocrossing on a Rohloff than any other transmission system.

Anyway, I'm not prosetylizing for Rolloff; I wanted to discuss using the Chainglider to run a chain for its entire life on the factory lube, an extention of an idea Sheldon gave me. It is just incidental that I ran the experiment on my Rohloff bike. It would work on any hub gearbox bike or single speed.

***

You say you don't know any Rohloff owners. Actually, one of the most interesting and significant things about RBT is that on a rather technical conference no fewer than five people are known to operate one or more Rohloff hubs: Sheldon, Chalo, Pete Cresswell, Lou, and me. Among my correspondents there's a well-known Rohloff exponent up the road from you in Eugene.

Andre Jute

Duane

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Apr 13, 2015, 4:13:36 PM4/13/15
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Sir Ridesalot

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Apr 13, 2015, 6:21:48 PM4/13/15
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Something that I've noticed with a lot of bikes like this one and the Surly Long-Haul Trekker is that the panniers are often mounted way back of the rear axle. At one time it was taught to have as much of the weight of the bag and contents centred over the rear axle for directional stability of the bike. Has something changed that lets you mount your pannier far over the back of the rear axle without affecting bicycle directional stability/handling?

Cheers

jbeattie

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Apr 13, 2015, 6:29:50 PM4/13/15
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You can find many unusual things in Eugene. https://www.bikefriday.com/ From the FAQ https://www.bikefriday.com/bicycles/faqs/ :

"ROHLOFF SPEEDHUB: A completely internal gearing system: single front chainring, no front or rear derailleur, no cassette, 14-speeds evenly spaced (no overlapping) gears, yet with as wide a range as a triple chainring. Operated by a single grip-type shifter. Was developed for mountain bike downhill competition.

Advantages: Bulletproof, wide range of gears.
Disadvantages: Heavy (typically almost a pound heavier than the SRAM setup), expensive, more drag and a whirring noise which is music or menace to your ears depending on whether you're a fan or not. Needs to be run in: after the first 500-1000 miles, the oil should be changed out -- a simple procedure."

More Euegen Rohloff bikes: http://co-motion.com/index.php/bikes/americano-rohloff Check-out the site, they have a bunch of Rohloff bikes -- Eugene is a f***** Rohloff Mecca! Little did I know! It's $5645 as pictured minus the S&S couplers. Not cheap. Rolf is in Eugene, too. http://www.rolfprima.com/#built -- but no Rolf Rohloff. Ken Kesey was in Eugene, but only his statue remains. http://petehelzer.com/kesey.htm




-- Jay Beattie.
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