Rules of Thumb

[John B.]

Whatever became of all the "rules of thumb" that I used to read about
in the bike magazines.

I remember strict instructions that the front of the knee must be
directly over the center line of the pedal when the crank was
horizontal, and that the end of road bike handle bars should point at
the rear wheel axle. And when one is in the drops the handle bars
should "cover" the front wheel axle.

I even remember articles about how to tape the handle bars - this was
in the days of thin bar wrapping - and some folks even recommended a
layer of "air conditioning pipe insulation" applied to the bars before
wrapping with the tape.

Now all I read is "Ohhhh, that bike is Soooo stiff", and I even saw
one entitled "Ride without looking like a Rookie" and another "How to
enjoy a solo ride".

Are bicycles now so standardized that we now don't have to be told how
to adjust handle bars? Or does the LBS now do it for us?

I even came across an article "Race Back in Time at L'Eroica" a story
about riding a steel frame bicycle that had toe clips and down tube
shifters while wearing a wool jersey.

(I think that old age has crept up behind me when I wasn't looking :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> Whatever became of all the "rules of thumb"
> that I used to read about in the
> bike magazines.
>
> I remember strict instructions that the front
> of the knee must be directly over the center
> line of the pedal when the crank was
> horizontal, and that the end of road bike
> handle bars should point at the rear wheel
> axle. And when one is in the drops the handle
> bars should "cover" the front wheel axle.

Wonderful :)

I'd like to read those magazines cover to
cover...

> Are bicycles now so standardized that we now
> don't have to be told how to adjust handle
> bars? Or does the LBS now do it for us?

Even so, there are still many bikes around that
are 30+ more years old...

But I don't think that is it anyway. I think
people just don't enjoy repairing and tweaking
things. I don't think it is them being stupid
or lazy, rather they were never exposed to it
enough (some not at all), so they don't have
that initial confidence to just get going,
before they find out, hey, it is not *that*
difficult, and it is fun as well!

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 36 Blogomatic articles -

[Yin goo]

That I find this sentiment overly generous I hope doesn't reflect poorly on
my personality, but this isn't my experience in the main. Many of my
friends and colleagues are of the dump it and buy new persuasion, and
whilst the internet initially was of help in learning to fix what one
already possessed, now, so often I encounter variations on the phrase "if
you have to ask ... you'll never understand". In quick retrospect, I guess
this superior attitude, held largely by those entirely undeserving of it,
is fairly standard, but it's a shame that it continues to propagate.

Wow! Ok, I feel better now.

[Sir Ridesalot]

So many of those old tips have been debunked or otherwise become dropped by the wayside. KOOPS has a The Myth of KOPS on Sheldon's sight. THe hub/handlebar one is no longer followed.

What I miss in bicycling magazines we the actual articles that told you how to fix something or how to ride or where to ride or whatever it was they were promoting. Now it seems as though bicycle mechanics is fast becoming/has become Don't fix it replace it. Look at posts in this group where someone asks how to fix something on a bike from the 1980s or 1990s and most times the majority of replies twll the poster to buy a new bike.

Bicycling magaizines now seem to be more focused on the adevertisers than on the bicyclists.

Times have changed and in some ways not for the better.

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

You live in a 3rd world Islamic countr
y.

Search: number list cycle magazines websites blogs

visit Barnes n Noble

[avag...@gmail.com]

Andy posted a new one

BIKERUMOR.COM

a splinter from

BIKEHUMOR.ORG

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/19/2016 11:34 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> Whatever became of all the "rules of thumb" that I used to read about
> in the bike magazines.
>
> I remember strict instructions that the front of the knee must be
> directly over the center line of the pedal when the crank was
> horizontal, and that the end of road bike handle bars should point at
> the rear wheel axle. And when one is in the drops the handle bars
> should "cover" the front wheel axle.

I remember those instructions. Personally, I never believed the
handlebar ones anyway. Seems to me handlebar pitch or tilt should be
whatever feels good to the rider.

And the "cover the axle" thing probably arose after an "expert" bike
tester for _Bicycling_ rode three road frames in a row and noticed that
similarity between them. It may have worked for that style frame, with
that rider's upper body, arm and neck length, but I can't imagine it
makes sense for every rider on every bike.

> I even remember articles about how to tape the handle bars - this was
> in the days of thin bar wrapping - and some folks even recommended a
> layer of "air conditioning pipe insulation" applied to the bars before
> wrapping with the tape.

I think what's happened there is that people have spotted all those tips
as being economic opportunities. "Heck, if people are using pipe
insulation for that, we can buy it in bulk, cut it to size, package it
and sell it. We'll get rich!"

> Now all I read is "Ohhhh, that bike is Soooo stiff", and I even saw
> one entitled "Ride without looking like a Rookie" and another "How to
> enjoy a solo ride".

Not to mention "Get great looking legs!" and articles on just the right
outfit to wear when you ride to the coffee shop. $150 bicycle blue jeans!

BTW, a variation on the theme: My wife gets the Terry Bicycles catalog.
Georgena Terry was one of the earliest proponents of bikes designed to
better fit women riders. (Our daughter rides a Terry bike.) But the
catalog has devolved into a clothing store. There's no evidence that
they still bother selling bikes.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Mark J.]

> Bicycling magazines now seem to be more focused on the advertisers than on the bicyclists.

>
> Times have changed and in some ways not for the better.

I would agree, except this is /not/ a change from 30 years ago, IMHO.
Maybe from 40 years ago.
Who here remembers "Bike World"? (US publication)

Mark J.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Cuthbert to Berto to Brown....

todays there's more space, more reason to write


https://www.google.com/webhp#q=sheldon+brown

a Columbia vs AJ's Electric Limo ?

muh '65 Volvo has one page for electricity

muh E250 GT has over 130 ...

prob 25 ways to turn the key ....

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-19 20:34, John B. wrote:
>
> Whatever became of all the "rules of thumb" that I used to read about
> in the bike magazines.
>
> I remember strict instructions that the front of the knee must be
> directly over the center line of the pedal when the crank was
> horizontal, and that the end of road bike handle bars should point at
> the rear wheel axle. And when one is in the drops the handle bars
> should "cover" the front wheel axle.
>
> I even remember articles about how to tape the handle bars - this was
> in the days of thin bar wrapping - and some folks even recommended a
> layer of "air conditioning pipe insulation" applied to the bars before
> wrapping with the tape.
>
> Now all I read is "Ohhhh, that bike is Soooo stiff", and I even saw
> one entitled "Ride without looking like a Rookie" and another "How to
> enjoy a solo ride".
>

Yeah, or stories about the latest and greatest gizmos that cost a
fortune. I quit reading bike magazines a long time ago.

What I am much more interested in is endurance testing of tires and
other stuff like they regularly present in car magazines. But it doesn't
happen, so why buy those magazines?

> Are bicycles now so standardized that we now don't have to be told how
> to adjust handle bars?

We still have to adjust. Serious riders make sure they get the correct
frame size. When I bought my new MTB I rode it for a while after the LBS
had adjusted things upon delivery. I read up on best positioning for the
various riding styles, there's plenty of information. Just not in
magazines anymore because it's all online now.

Per these instructions I shortened my handlebar in 10mm increments
because I was brushing stuff too often on trails. Until it felt just
right. Then I tried stem lengths and found that 80mm suited me much
better than the stock 120mm. Slightly steeper angle as well. Now the
"cockpit" fits like a glove.


> ... Or does the LBS now do it for us?


A good one will. But just like with the adjustment of a partial at the
dentist there is a finite amount of time the LBS will be willing to
invest on the courtesy side (as in free). If you offer to pay he'll
surely adjust your bike as often as you want to.

>
> I even came across an article "Race Back in Time at L'Eroica" a story
> about riding a steel frame bicycle that had toe clips and down tube
> shifters while wearing a wool jersey.
>
> (I think that old age has crept up behind me when I wasn't looking :-)
>

If it's any comfort I ride a circa 1982 steel frame road bike, down tube
shifters, changed from 2*6 to 2*7 after I crunched the freehub. I also
gave it a 11-32T cassette which is the maximum the old Shimano 600
derailer was willing to stomach. 52/42 up front. Still not so ideal for
some of the hills here but suits me well.

The bike was custom made for me so back then was expensive. Immediately
after delivery I added lighting and a sturdy luggage rack. Meantime I
removed the toe clip pedals and replaced them with ... <gasp> ... MTB
pedals. Last year I added small panniers (Nashbar Daytrekker). Those
kinds of changes and my unorthodox clothing causes some in the
Lycra-crowd to look down on me but I don't care.

Do I feel old now? Nah!

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[jbeattie]

Note:

From http://www.womenscycling.ca/bl... "Cervélo believes that women-specific bikes aren’t necessary because, contrary to what consumers are told, men and women’s leg and torso proportions aren’t different—the only difference is between short and tall people. Heather Henderson, women–specific product manager for Trek Bicycles, confirms that. 'The idea that women’s leg and torso length is different than men’s is not based on fact, but neither is it being spread by the manufactures of WSD (women-specific-design) bikes. It’s an urban legend. Misinformed staff in bicycle stores help propagate the legend.'” It is a serious issue as clearly the geometry of the bike is being affected.

http://cyclingtips.com/2015/05/womens-cycling-market-part-three/

Nonetheless, there are a lot of women-specific-designs out there, and women have become the new bicycle marketing frontier. Terry has been eclipsed and pushed more towards saddles and clothes.

Some people still preach the old KOPS position, but the insidious modern trend is turning bike fitting over to supposed experts who charge $250 a pop. My son got a super-discounted fitting from a shop he rides for. I jumped on his fitted bike and immediately noticed the saddle was tilted up and probably rocking his hips. We went out with four old-guy racer friends of mine who, like me, all thought his stem was too short. I'm not sure about the super-scientific fit thing.

-- Jay Beattie.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Well that is our understanding....


http://www.bing.com/search?q=COMPARISON+AVERAGE+WOMAN%27S+MUSCULAR+POWER+AND+MEN%27S+MUSCULAR+POWER&qs=n&form=QBLH&pc=EUPP_U156&pq=comparison+average+woman%27s+muscular+power+and+men%27s+muscular+power&sc=0-66&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=CF119FAE97F34FCAB36C29F20C00D6D1

a too short stem ? all stems are too short. install an adjustable stem. be human.

[avag...@gmail.com]

say howabout a photo of

'four old-guy racer friends of mine '

we're curious abt the real cyclists of Portland ....

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://goo.gl/eu2EN7

[John B.]

On Fri, 20 May 2016 07:04:54 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> Whatever became of all the "rules of thumb"
>> that I used to read about in the
>> bike magazines.
>>
>> I remember strict instructions that the front
>> of the knee must be directly over the center
>> line of the pedal when the crank was
>> horizontal, and that the end of road bike
>> handle bars should point at the rear wheel
>> axle. And when one is in the drops the handle
>> bars should "cover" the front wheel axle.
>
>Wonderful :)
>
>I'd like to read those magazines cover to
>cover...

You'll need a "way back machine" to get back to the 1980's maybe
90's....

>> Are bicycles now so standardized that we now
>> don't have to be told how to adjust handle
>> bars? Or does the LBS now do it for us?
>
>Even so, there are still many bikes around that
>are 30+ more years old...
>
>But I don't think that is it anyway. I think
>people just don't enjoy repairing and tweaking
>things. I don't think it is them being stupid
>or lazy, rather they were never exposed to it
>enough (some not at all), so they don't have
>that initial confidence to just get going,
>before they find out, hey, it is not *that*
>difficult, and it is fun as well!
--

cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On the other hand, saddle height, and fore and aft position make a
world of difference and handle bar height and stem length, and all the
other things that can be adjusted.

But instead of articles on how to adjust your bike I see articles
about "How to look like a cool guy on your new bike".

Are the modern day cyclists satisfied to buy a new bike and just leap
in and ride the way the bike shop set it up until next year's model
arrives?

--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Yes, I've heard that the different body proportions between men and
women (i.e. leg length compared to torso length) was a myth - or more
accurately, that any individual difference is subsumed by individual
differences.

I think the main thing Georgena Terry concentrated on (or still
concentrates on?) is the undeniable fact that women are shorter than men
on average. It was her contention that for people under a certain size
(maybe 5'5" as a wild guess?) shrinking a bike with two 700c wheels will
ruin handling and/or comfort, due in part to the need to avoid excessive
wheel-to-pedal overlap. Hence the small wheels (about 24") in the
smaller frame sizes - an idea she borrowed from Bill Boston, IIRC.

I do know that my daughter rode my wife's old mixte frame for many
years, including on some bike tours. When she completed her degree, we
promised her a nice bike. She test rode many, but really loved the fit
and feel of the Terry. She said she never felt so comfortable on a
bike, including our tandem. She's about 5'2" tall, IIRC.

So more briefly, maybe it's just shorter people that feel more
comfortable on "women specific" bikes. (I do recall one male friend who
rode a Bill Boston bike with a smaller front wheel.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

My hand's raised!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> You'll need a "way back machine" to get back
> to the 1980's maybe 90's....

If I had one, I would configure it for 1994 and
go to Ibiza with my friend E and listen to
Eurodisco for one week without sleep. Then I'd
do back to the present and hopefully that
"trip" would cure my hangover in the bargain...

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic

- so far: 37 Blogomatic articles -

[John B.]

Yes, True. But... if your knees hurt the KOP rule is certainly a good
place to start.

>What I miss in bicycling magazines we the actual articles that told you how to fix something or how to ride or where to ride or whatever it was they were promoting. Now it seems as though bicycle mechanics is fast becoming/has become Don't fix it replace it. Look at posts in this group where someone asks how to fix something on a bike from the 1980s or 1990s and most times the majority of replies twll the poster to buy a new bike.
>
>Bicycling magaizines now seem to be more focused on the adevertisers than on the bicyclists.

From what I have read (more innuendo then fact) I believe that most
publications' income is primarily from adverts, not from
subscriptions, although the number of subscribers certainly is
reflected in the price charged for advert space.

Given that a single page advert is likely to be costing thousands of
dollars a month I can see why the advertisers are the driving force in
the business.

>Times have changed and in some ways not for the better.
>
>Cheers

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 20 May 2016 11:15:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/19/2016 11:34 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> Whatever became of all the "rules of thumb" that I used to read about
>> in the bike magazines.
>>
>> I remember strict instructions that the front of the knee must be
>> directly over the center line of the pedal when the crank was
>> horizontal, and that the end of road bike handle bars should point at
>> the rear wheel axle. And when one is in the drops the handle bars
>> should "cover" the front wheel axle.
>
>I remember those instructions. Personally, I never believed the
>handlebar ones anyway. Seems to me handlebar pitch or tilt should be
>whatever feels good to the rider.
>
>And the "cover the axle" thing probably arose after an "expert" bike
>tester for _Bicycling_ rode three road frames in a row and noticed that
>similarity between them. It may have worked for that style frame, with
>that rider's upper body, arm and neck length, but I can't imagine it
>makes sense for every rider on every bike.

I read Dave Moulton's blog from time to time and recently read a
couple of his posts about bicycle fit. He recommends a seat adjustment
using the distance from the elbow to the tips of the finger between
the nose of the saddle and the handle bars. I tried it on my bikes and
Goodness! That's just how my bikes are set up. (which of course proves
he is right :-)

He also wrote about "women's bikes" and he argues that the real
difference between men and women (regarding bicycling) is that the
women are smaller and require a smaller bicycle, and, he recommends
slightly different angles due to the height difference.

I don't necessarily agree with everything that he writes but he did
build a lot of bikes and, as far as I can tell, was well respected in
the trade and I would guess that the majority of his customers were
satisfied with how his bikes fit.

>
>> I even remember articles about how to tape the handle bars - this was
>> in the days of thin bar wrapping - and some folks even recommended a
>> layer of "air conditioning pipe insulation" applied to the bars before
>> wrapping with the tape.
>
>I think what's happened there is that people have spotted all those tips
>as being economic opportunities. "Heck, if people are using pipe
>insulation for that, we can buy it in bulk, cut it to size, package it
>and sell it. We'll get rich!"

Nope, they just incorporated foam in the bar tape and all the old thin
stuff disappeared.

And, I might note, I was browsing through the tape offerings at one
shop the other day and came across some tape priced at 1,500 baht a
set. About US$42.... I didn't buy it :-)

>> Now all I read is "Ohhhh, that bike is Soooo stiff", and I even saw
>> one entitled "Ride without looking like a Rookie" and another "How to
>> enjoy a solo ride".
>
>Not to mention "Get great looking legs!" and articles on just the right
>outfit to wear when you ride to the coffee shop. $150 bicycle blue jeans!

Yup. I've read a couple of articles about how much better shaved legs
are. Nobody can quantify exactly why they are better but regardless,
they ARE.

>
>BTW, a variation on the theme: My wife gets the Terry Bicycles catalog.
> Georgena Terry was one of the earliest proponents of bikes designed to
>better fit women riders. (Our daughter rides a Terry bike.) But the
>catalog has devolved into a clothing store. There's no evidence that
>they still bother selling bikes.

One of the basic facts of life is "chase the almighty dollar" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

There does seem to be some justification for women's track bikes to
have a bit slacker seat tube angle which seems to make the bike "fit"
a little better. But that is for a bike that is essentially ridden in
the drops, not a normal road bike.

>http://cyclingtips.com/2015/05/womens-cycling-market-part-three/
>
>Nonetheless, there are a lot of women-specific-designs out there, and women have become the new bicycle marketing frontier. Terry has been eclipsed and pushed more towards saddles and clothes.
>
>Some people still preach the old KOPS position, but the insidious modern trend is turning bike fitting over to supposed experts who charge $250 a pop. My son got a super-discounted fitting from a shop he rides for. I jumped on his fitted bike and immediately noticed the saddle was tilted up and probably rocking his hips. We went out with four old-guy racer friends of mine who, like me, all thought his stem was too short. I'm not sure about the super-scientific fit thing.
>
>-- Jay Beattie.

You are trying to destroy the American Dream. A fitter that was fast
on his feet might be able to work in two "fittings" in the morning and
two in the afternoon. A Grand a day. Shoot, only have to work one day
a week :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 20 May 2016 15:35:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

The usual "rule of thumb" for road bikes is the handle bars are the
width of your shoulders, which means that your arms stick straight out
in front. I've always assumed that this was a good until I bought a
new(old) bike and riding it felt fine. Eventually I measured the
handle bars, Goodness! They were 3 cm wider than "normal" and I had
never noticed it :-)

>
>> ... Or does the LBS now do it for us?
>
>
>A good one will. But just like with the adjustment of a partial at the
>dentist there is a finite amount of time the LBS will be willing to
>invest on the courtesy side (as in free). If you offer to pay he'll
>surely adjust your bike as often as you want to.
>
>>
>> I even came across an article "Race Back in Time at L'Eroica" a story
>> about riding a steel frame bicycle that had toe clips and down tube
>> shifters while wearing a wool jersey.
>>
>> (I think that old age has crept up behind me when I wasn't looking :-)
>>
>
>If it's any comfort I ride a circa 1982 steel frame road bike, down tube
>shifters, changed from 2*6 to 2*7 after I crunched the freehub. I also
>gave it a 11-32T cassette which is the maximum the old Shimano 600
>derailer was willing to stomach. 52/42 up front. Still not so ideal for
>some of the hills here but suits me well.

I find that the terrain seems to be the deciding factor. In Bangkok,
essentially flat, I find down tube shifters to be just the thing and
make maybe two or three gear changes a ride. In Phuket, which is
essentially a mountain sticking out of the water I use a 3 x 10 setup
and on most days will use nearly all the gears.

>The bike was custom made for me so back then was expensive. Immediately
>after delivery I added lighting and a sturdy luggage rack. Meantime I
>removed the toe clip pedals and replaced them with ... <gasp> ... MTB
>pedals. Last year I added small panniers (Nashbar Daytrekker). Those
>kinds of changes and my unorthodox clothing causes some in the
>Lycra-crowd to look down on me but I don't care.
>
>Do I feel old now? Nah!
--

cheers,

John B.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per John B.:

>I read Dave Moulton's blog from time to time and recently read a
>couple of his posts about bicycle fit. He recommends a seat adjustment
>using the distance from the elbow to the tips of the finger between
>the nose of the saddle and the handle bars.

So far, I have not heard an argument against my own seat-distance
setting:

- Riding on the saddle, upshift until you are pedaling with your butt
floating an inch or so above the saddle.

- Peddle like that for a minute or so.

- Downshift until your butt settles back on the saddle.
If your sit bones are not centered in the usable portion
of the saddle, move it fore or aft and repeat until they are.


I have found that handlebar extension does not affect where my sit bones
rest on the saddle. My bars allow me to shift my grip 7+ inches fore
and aft - and the outcome of the floating-butt test above seems to
remain the same with my grip all the way forward or all the way aft.

And if there *is* a diff, it is no more than a quarter of an inch -
arrived at by setting the saddle so my sit bones are on the rear edge
rivets of the saddle so that I can feel any diff.


I think there is a psychological/marketing factor in at least some of
the recommended settings/sizes: people have a built-in desire for
hard-and-fast rules and making some up helps sell bikes.

I remember surfing in the early sixties: the board makers felt
constrained to issue precise recommendations on board length vs the
surfer's height..... and then mini-boards came along....
--
Pete Cresswell

[Frank Krygowski]

On a ride this week, a friend described the results of a professional
bike fit session, albeit a much less expensive one. As I understood it,
the changes were a centimeter here, a centimeter there, and a tremendous
increase in comfort.

Personally, I doubt that I can feel those centimeters of difference.
For me, the only one that's really important is the height of the seat,
but even that one is effectively changed when I ride using a different
pair of shoes; and for rides under (say) 30 miles, I don't bother to
re-adjust it. And regarding the forward reach, I just measured it on
the four bikes I ride most. They vary by a full inch.

Admittedly, I'm not much of a connoisseur. And I don't doubt the value
of a proper fit when getting a brand new bike.

But I wonder if the value of expensive fine-tuning fit sessions might be
matched by some ceremony involving feathers, bones and rattles.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-20 21:32, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 20 May 2016 15:35:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2016-05-19 20:34, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>> Are bicycles now so standardized that we now don't have to be told how
>>> to adjust handle bars?
>>
>>
>> We still have to adjust. Serious riders make sure they get the correct
>> frame size. When I bought my new MTB I rode it for a while after the LBS
>> had adjusted things upon delivery. I read up on best positioning for the
>> various riding styles, there's plenty of information. Just not in
>> magazines anymore because it's all online now.
>>
>> Per these instructions I shortened my handlebar in 10mm increments
>> because I was brushing stuff too often on trails. Until it felt just
>> right. Then I tried stem lengths and found that 80mm suited me much
>> better than the stock 120mm. Slightly steeper angle as well. Now the
>> "cockpit" fits like a glove.
>
> The usual "rule of thumb" for road bikes is the handle bars are the
> width of your shoulders, which means that your arms stick straight out
> in front. I've always assumed that this was a good until I bought a
> new(old) bike and riding it felt fine. Eventually I measured the
> handle bars, Goodness! They were 3 cm wider than "normal" and I had
> never noticed it :-)
>

On my road bike the handle bar is much shorter than shoulder width which
was quite normal in Europe in the early 80's. It is a custom-fitted bike
and the LBS owner asked me a lot of questions about my riding style and
most of all the routes.

>
>>
>>> ... Or does the LBS now do it for us?
>>
>>
>> A good one will. But just like with the adjustment of a partial at the
>> dentist there is a finite amount of time the LBS will be willing to
>> invest on the courtesy side (as in free). If you offer to pay he'll
>> surely adjust your bike as often as you want to.
>>
>>>
>>> I even came across an article "Race Back in Time at L'Eroica" a story
>>> about riding a steel frame bicycle that had toe clips and down tube
>>> shifters while wearing a wool jersey.
>>>
>>> (I think that old age has crept up behind me when I wasn't looking :-)
>>>
>>
>> If it's any comfort I ride a circa 1982 steel frame road bike, down tube
>> shifters, changed from 2*6 to 2*7 after I crunched the freehub. I also
>> gave it a 11-32T cassette which is the maximum the old Shimano 600
>> derailer was willing to stomach. 52/42 up front. Still not so ideal for
>> some of the hills here but suits me well.
>
> I find that the terrain seems to be the deciding factor. In Bangkok,
> essentially flat, I find down tube shifters to be just the thing and
> make maybe two or three gear changes a ride. In Phuket, which is
> essentially a mountain sticking out of the water I use a 3 x 10 setup
> and on most days will use nearly all the gears.
>

That would be my dream set-up but one can't have everything. By the time
I'd have changed all that plus brifters and stuff I might as well buy a
whole new bike. And then my wife would want me to get rid of this one
which I can't do (yet).

[...]

[Sir Ridesalot]

changes of a centimeter or so can make a HUGE difference on very long rides where the rider is in the saddle for hours at a time. A number of years ago between the 60 and 75 miles points my but started getting pretty sore. an adjustment of no more than 1/8th of an inch took away that pain.

With so many bicyclists now buying stuff online the bike shops need a way other than selling accessories and parts to make money. I think bke fits are part of how bike shops stay open.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

Shoulder width or a bit wider was needed when bicyclists were riding bicycles with short cockpits and their knees came up between their elbows when the bicyclist was riding in the drops.

Cheers

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-21 12:28, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 11:34:19 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-05-20 21:32, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 20 May 2016 15:35:55 -0700, Joerg
>>> <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2016-05-19 20:34, John B. wrote:
>>

[...]

I guess my frame is long enough because I am over 6' tall and ride in
the drops occasionally. Max 5% of the time though, getting too old in my
back for more. There is never interference.

However, the narrow handle bar has another drawback I just found out. I
can't mount the new MP3 player (with speaker) on there or I'd take away
too much grip area up top. So unless I switch to a wider bar I'll have
to build some sort of steerer tube mount for that. Bicycles have
surprisingly little options when it comes to mounting additional gizmos.
On long boring uphill slogs that little MP3 player is nice.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Pockets are very useful for putting MP3 players in.

Cheers

[Joerg]

My T-shirts don't have pockets and it wouldn't work anyhow because it's
this kind, with speaker:

http://myivation.com/index.php/ivation-bullet-super-portable-rechargeable-bluetooth-speaker.html

It is about the size of the cardboard drum inside a toilet paper roll
and has remarkably good sound. I do not like to wear any plugs in my
ears and AFAIK that would also be illegal here.

The rubber strap that comes with it is too flimsy.

[Frank Krygowski]

Well, heaven forbid that we should ever just listen to the sounds of
nature...


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Oh I do that. I was debating whether to use another one of these on the
MTB. There are some long boring prairie stretches of singletrack out
here. All you generally hear there is the faint din of some distant
highway. But I decided against it.

On the way back from the valley I must cycle on roads and "natural"
sounds there consist of ... vrooom ... rat-tat-tat ... roooaar and so
on. Bluegrass sure sound nicer than that.

[Joerg]

We've tried 26" but my wife only feels comfortable of a 24" MTB.

[Joerg]

Their income stream is strictly tied to the number of subscribers. This
is because ad revenue per page is almost proportionate to the subscriber
number. The companies paying for the ads pay for the reach, for the
number of people seeing their ads.

That became abundantly clear when our daily paper jacked up the
subscription rate 30%. I cancelled. They immediately called and started
to haggle, the price went down and down. Eventually I said no thanks
because I didn't like the political slant of that paper anyhow. Same day
I got a call from one of their local managers. The subscription price
dropped to a third of before the increase! So I signed back on. They do
their darndest not to let that subscriber number sag.

>> Times have changed and in some ways not for the better.
>>

What I really don't like are "paid articles" or whatever newspaper guys
call that. Where there is a glowing review of a new product and in the
same edition there is a multi-page ad from that very vendor.

[jbeattie]

Or for holding baseball bats to hit people wearing earbuds on bikes -- or on foot. Twice in the last two days, I've screamed myself blue trying to get the attention of a walker with earbuds or headphones. I was riding with my son today, and he just gave up and jumped through a gap between a couple of earbud wearing walkers. He doesn't even bother trying to get their attention anymore. I also see the earbud set on bikes -- totally oblivious to what's going on around them.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

One of many reasons why my MP3 player has a speaker. There isn't even a
jack to connect headphones and I believe it would be illegal in California.

Even while riding at 20-25mph there's always those super athletes where
I hear a faint "on your left" and then ... WHOOSH ... they zip by
Porsche-style.

[avag...@gmail.com]

write a piece for the local paper.

[John B.]

A centimeter is roughly 3/8" and I suspect that you would notice it of
your handle bars were 3/8" further away or closer. I also think you
would notice the seat being 3/8" forward or back. Whether this results
in a "tremendous" difference I don't know but it certainly is a
noticeable difference, at least to me.

>Personally, I doubt that I can feel those centimeters of difference.
>For me, the only one that's really important is the height of the seat,
>but even that one is effectively changed when I ride using a different
>pair of shoes; and for rides under (say) 30 miles, I don't bother to
>re-adjust it. And regarding the forward reach, I just measured it on
>the four bikes I ride most. They vary by a full inch.

If you are implying that the seats on your bikes vary in height by a
full inch, from the top of the seat to the top of the pedal, and you
never know it then there has to be something wrong with you. Most
people can easily feel the difference in, say a shower flip-flop on
one foot and the other bare.

>Admittedly, I'm not much of a connoisseur. And I don't doubt the value
>of a proper fit when getting a brand new bike.
>
>But I wonder if the value of expensive fine-tuning fit sessions might be
>matched by some ceremony involving feathers, bones and rattles.

I think it would probably cost more. Wear and tear on chickens, et al

[John B.]

Back when I used to run I tried a music player... I found that the
noise interfered with my thinking.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:03:13 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

What infuriates me is seeing the news, "Horrific Crash, 17 people
killed and 22 admitted to hospital due to the collapse of a bridge on
Upper Downer Road".

The next day.... nothing, not a mention.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I've always wondered about the term "cockpit". It originally described
a hole in the ground where roosters fought. It was adapted to mean an
area lower then the normal deck on a boat and later a hole in the
fuselage of an airplane where the pilot sat.

Now it is adapted to mean a piece of pipe with a cyclist sitting on it

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/21/2016 8:49 PM, John B. wrote:

> On Sat, 21 May 2016 10:16:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>>
>> On a ride this week, a friend described the results of a professional
>> bike fit session, albeit a much less expensive one. As I understood it,
>> the changes were a centimeter here, a centimeter there, and a tremendous
>> increase in comfort.
>
> A centimeter is roughly 3/8" and I suspect that you would notice it of
> your handle bars were 3/8" further away or closer. I also think you
> would notice the seat being 3/8" forward or back. Whether this results
> in a "tremendous" difference I don't know but it certainly is a
> noticeable difference, at least to me.
>
>> Personally, I doubt that I can feel those centimeters of difference.
>> For me, the only one that's really important is the height of the seat,
>> but even that one is effectively changed when I ride using a different
>> pair of shoes; and for rides under (say) 30 miles, I don't bother to
>> re-adjust it. And regarding the forward reach, I just measured it on
>> the four bikes I ride most. They vary by a full inch.
>
> If you are implying that the seats on your bikes vary in height by a
> full inch, from the top of the seat to the top of the pedal, and you
> never know it then there has to be something wrong with you. Most
> people can easily feel the difference in, say a shower flip-flop on
> one foot and the other bare.

No, what I said was that for moderately short rides (up to perhaps 30
miles) the seat height difference from different shoe soles isn't
important to me. For longer rides, I'd probably make an adjustment.

The inch difference I spoke of was from seat (actually, from where my
"sit bones" land) to the handlebars of my various bikes. I don't seem
to notice that. Yes, the bikes themselves feel different, but there's
nothing I attribute to the saddle-to-bar distance, AKA forward reach.
IOW, I don't feel cramped on one bike, or stretched out on another.

Perhaps I'm just very tolerant regarding that dimension.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Years ago, our club had a new member who showed up for his first club
ride with a boom box bungeed to a rear rack on his bike. I suppose he
thought we were unfriendly, because nobody wanted to ride within 20 feet
of him. IIRC, he came to only one ride.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
<snip>

> I guess my frame is long enough because I am over 6' tall and ride in
> the drops occasionally. Max 5% of the time though, getting too old in my
> back for more. There is never interference.
>
> However, the narrow handle bar has another drawback I just found out. I
> can't mount the new MP3 player (with speaker) on there or I'd take away
> too much grip area up top. So unless I switch to a wider bar I'll have
> to build some sort of steerer tube mount for that. Bicycles have
> surprisingly little options when it comes to mounting additional gizmos.
> On long boring uphill slogs that little MP3 player is nice.
>

I've got cross levers, a GPS, a mirror and a light on my drop bars. I can't
add one more gizmo without removing places to put my hands. It would be
nice if stem caps could be replaced with another shorter stem to mount an
"auxiliary bar" on.

[John B.]

O.K. Shoes. Yes, I normally would use (I don't know what to call 'em,)
the bicycle shoes called "cleat-less", you know the ones with the
cleats on them, on a "Bike Ride" but if I am just noodling around I
wear what I'm wearing. Usually a pair of sandals. And no, I don't
really notice the difference either.

Incidentally, I don't notice the distance from the saddle to the
pedal, as such, unless of course it was very long, or short, but what
I do notice is a difference in pedaling. I try to "spin" as much as
possible and with too high a seat spinning feels very awkward. Drop
the seat maybe just a little and the spinning "feels better".

>
>The inch difference I spoke of was from seat (actually, from where my
>"sit bones" land) to the handlebars of my various bikes. I don't seem
>to notice that. Yes, the bikes themselves feel different, but there's
>nothing I attribute to the saddle-to-bar distance, AKA forward reach.
>IOW, I don't feel cramped on one bike, or stretched out on another.

I recently changed the stems on two bikes from a 3 inch stem to a 2
inch stem I agree with you, I don't feel cramped or stretched out but
(I'm a short guy) I do feel more comfortable with the short stems then
with the long 3 inch ones.

And I think that is most of it, feeling comfortable. I suspect that if
"fitting" has any value it is to get that last little increment sorted
out.

>Perhaps I'm just very tolerant regarding that dimension.
--

cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 22 May 2016 00:06:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski

There is a guy, lives somewhere in the same general part of town that
we do, I see from time to time riding sedately along with a car radio
on the handle bars and four speakers on the bicycle. He doesn't mess
about with any foolishness like hub or sidewall generators but has a
rather large auto battery (about the same size as my diesel pickup) on
the rear carrier. He doesn't play his radio excessively loud but rolls
along (one might say) politely serenading the pedestrians :-)

But in a more serious vein, there you are running or pedaling along
with the endorphins pumping out, does an MP3 player really improve the
quality of life?
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

A do it yourself handle bar extension :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 22 May 2016 16:26:33 +0700, John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz>
wrote:

http://www.instructables.com/id/handlebar-mount-for-extra-equipment-clip-on-bicy/
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-21 18:02, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2016 16:03:13 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2016-05-20 20:20, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 20 May 2016 03:56:40 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
>>> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

[...]

>>>> Times have changed and in some ways not for the better.
>>>>
>>
>> What I really don't like are "paid articles" or whatever newspaper guys
>> call that. Where there is a glowing review of a new product and in the
>> same edition there is a multi-page ad from that very vendor.
>
> What infuriates me is seeing the news, "Horrific Crash, 17 people
> killed and 22 admitted to hospital due to the collapse of a bridge on
> Upper Downer Road".
>
> The next day.... nothing, not a mention.
>

That's also a common problem with fatal cycling accidents. The day it
happened lots of coverage but little in useful information about how it
happened and often no detailed pictures or even camera close-ups of the
damage bike. The next day and following ... nada.

We just had a fatal one where all we know is it happened in the road.
Looks like a hit from behind as usual but ... did she want to turn? How
long was she in the left lane before being hit? Lights? Lane position?
There were witnesses they could easily have asked.

[Joerg]

You can get auxiliary bars that "hover" in front of the regular bar.
When I have a lot of time (and no swollen arms from poison oak like
right now) I might make a small dashboard like I had on a bike when I
was a teenager. That allows for mounting stuff in a much sturdier
fashion, plus switches and things like that. Then I can also mount the
battery underneath instead that of under the luggage rack which means a
shorter cable to the big light.

[Joerg]

I do electronic circuit design for a living. All sounds are off but not
when it comes to mundane chores such as a netlist checking and layout
review. Then I usually have Bluegrass or some African music playing.

>> Years ago, our club had a new member who showed up for his first club
>> ride with a boom box bungeed to a rear rack on his bike. I suppose he
>> thought we were unfriendly, because nobody wanted to ride within 20 feet
>> of him. IIRC, he came to only one ride.
>
> There is a guy, lives somewhere in the same general part of town that
> we do, I see from time to time riding sedately along with a car radio
> on the handle bars and four speakers on the bicycle. He doesn't mess
> about with any foolishness like hub or sidewall generators but has a
> rather large auto battery (about the same size as my diesel pickup) on
> the rear carrier. He doesn't play his radio excessively loud but rolls
> along (one might say) politely serenading the pedestrians :-)
>
> But in a more serious vein, there you are running or pedaling along
> with the endorphins pumping out, does an MP3 player really improve the
> quality of life?
>

Depends on the tunes it plays. I like it on really boring stretches or
long uphills. For regular riding on fast bike paths or roads not so much
because I'd have to set it way loud to hear over the wind rush and that
would bother people living there. I find it very inconsiderate when
motorcycle riders cruise along with their stereo on 10.

[Ralph Barone]

Not bad, but still a little cheesy.

[John B.]

On Sun, 22 May 2016 08:47:05 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

It is, apparently, the same in all "news" presentation. Blood and body
parts make the news. Facts and evidence are boring and are never
discussed.

But regarding bicycle crashes. I think that in many cases there is
insufficient proof to actually bring it to court. The cyclist is dead,
the auto driver says "she/he/it drove right out in front of me, I
didn't even have a chance to get my foot on the brake, no witnesses.

How do you bring it to court?
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 23 May 2016 02:58:04 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone

<ra...@invalid.com> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 May 2016 16:26:33 +0700, John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 22 May 2016 06:29:14 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
>>> <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>> I guess my frame is long enough because I am over 6' tall and ride in
>>>>> the drops occasionally. Max 5% of the time though, getting too old in my
>>>>> back for more. There is never interference.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the narrow handle bar has another drawback I just found out. I
>>>>> can't mount the new MP3 player (with speaker) on there or I'd take away
>>>>> too much grip area up top. So unless I switch to a wider bar I'll have
>>>>> to build some sort of steerer tube mount for that. Bicycles have
>>>>> surprisingly little options when it comes to mounting additional gizmos.
>>>>> On long boring uphill slogs that little MP3 player is nice.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've got cross levers, a GPS, a mirror and a light on my drop bars. I can't
>>>> add one more gizmo without removing places to put my hands. It would be
>>>> nice if stem caps could be replaced with another shorter stem to mount an
>>>> "auxiliary bar" on.
>>>
>>> A do it yourself handle bar extension :-)
>> http://www.instructables.com/id/handlebar-mount-for-extra-equipment-clip-on-bicy/
>
>Not bad, but still a little cheesy.

I think that "do it your selfers" are allowed to be a bit cheesy. But
there commercial versions all polished metal and chromium :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

There are hopes that minimum passing clearance laws will at least make
that excuse less plausible. But as with any other form of homicide,
lack of witnesses does make prosecution much more difficult.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

In this case it was clear, the driver of the pickup truck was under the
influence. They caught her quickly.

> There are hopes that minimum passing clearance laws will at least make
> that excuse less plausible. But as with any other form of homicide,
> lack of witnesses does make prosecution much more difficult.
>

There would be more tools available if used right away. Skid marks,
gapped one with ALB vehicles, seeking recordings of nearby security
cameras, bicycle damage, lighting on the bicycle, determining the angle
when hit, how far stuff flew, where to, and so on. Probably some of that
is taken at least after a fatal accicent but often not after a less than
fatal one.

Other than that, yeah, there is the lack of even one person giving a
statement for the cyclist's side. Because the cyclist would be the only
one able to do that and is dead.

What I find sad is that there is no follow-up regardless of whether this
went to court or not. So the cycling community doesn't learn much from
it and neither do drivers or traffic engineers.

[jbeattie]

And the presumption of fault when you rear-end someone, whether on a bike or in a car.

Speaking of minimum passing laws, there is an odd exception to the distance rule in Oregon when speed limits are under 35mph -- that's the posted limit and not what people are actually doing. There is still the general safe passing rule but not the minimum passing distance rule.

I mention this after almost getting killed a few weekends ago on a twisting decent when some car tried to pass (I was not quite up to terminal velocity) just when another car approached -- we were three across, and my thigh was practically touching the passenger side of the car. I caught the guy at a stop a half-mile down the hill and had a yell-a-thon. Dumb f*** doesn't know the law at all and talks about how he rides on the same road and is more polite to motorists. I seriously was going to ring his neck, but my son backed me down (not that I'm that big and bad, but I'm particularly stupid when mad).

Anyway, this is a place where I kicked myself for not being fully in the lane. I wasn't really paying that much attention to my position and was too far right and invited the pass, sort of (I didn't even know the fool was there). There are many times I will ride right and give a car an opportunity to pass on the twisting roads near town. I assume that the car will not try to pass when it is dangerous, e.g. there is on-coming traffic. And I assume the car will give me room. Those have been mostly reasonable assumptions until the last year or so.

I now routinely encounter people who will try to pass me in the West Hills when there is on-coming traffic and under the most dangerous situations. I suspect it is because of the traffic situation: people ratting-off of the busy highway and taking the erstwhile "back way" over the narrow, twisting roads through the West Hills -- which have now become suburban arterials. And they want to do it at highway speeds or as fast as they can. "Fuck you, I have to get to [the gym or bar or my Barkalounger]."

I'm used to this kind of crap from the P-U driving urban cowboys in Clackamas County, and I actually find it easier to deal with them than the goddamned Mercedes SUV driving ass-wipes who think they own the road and who, even when confronted, think they have the right to run "impolite" bicyclists off the road. You would think that with all the supposed "bike culture" in PDX that ordinary drivers would have a better understanding of the law -- but they clearly do not.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Yeah, there's nothing like getting brush-passed by a car with a "Share
the Road" license plate. :-/

At anything over 25 miles per hour, I'm certain to be at lane center.



--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

> the lane. ...


Out here that can get you into the ER or killed, and has. Similar in
other places:

http://citizensvoice.com/news/driver-sought-in-harveys-lake-hit-and-run-1.2017973


> ... I wasn't really paying that much attention to my position

> and was too far right and invited the pass, sort of (I didn't even
> know the fool was there). There are many times I will ride right and
> give a car an opportunity to pass on the twisting roads near town. I
> assume that the car will not try to pass when it is dangerous, e.g.
> there is on-coming traffic. And I assume the car will give me room.
> Those have been mostly reasonable assumptions until the last year or
> so.
>
> I now routinely encounter people who will try to pass me in the West
> Hills when there is on-coming traffic and under the most dangerous
> situations. I suspect it is because of the traffic situation: people
> ratting-off of the busy highway and taking the erstwhile "back way"
> over the narrow, twisting roads through the West Hills -- which have
> now become suburban arterials. And they want to do it at highway
> speeds or as fast as they can. "Fuck you, I have to get to [the gym
> or bar or my Barkalounger]."
>

The more dangerous ones are those who absolutely have to know who just
sent them a text.

> I'm used to this kind of crap from the P-U driving urban cowboys in
> Clackamas County, and I actually find it easier to deal with them
> than the goddamned Mercedes SUV driving ass-wipes who think they own
> the road and who, even when confronted, think they have the right to
> run "impolite" bicyclists off the road. You would think that with all
> the supposed "bike culture" in PDX that ordinary drivers would have a
> better understanding of the law -- but they clearly do not.
>

In our area one such road is White Rock Road, south of Hwy 50 from
Sacramento towards the east. Riding on the right as is law in California
results in risky passes by motorists. Riding more lane center result in
people getting mad, honking, riding up real close, then flooring it and
do an even more risky pass. I've had to bail there once. From then on I
only rode that stretch in my car. Until they build at least a bike lane.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 10:50:55 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>
> Yup. I've read a couple of articles about how much better shaved legs
> are. Nobody can quantify exactly why they are better but regardless,
> they ARE.
>
> John B.

Shaved legs are better for PRO bike racers because WHEN they crash and get scabs on their legs, the bandages applied will not tear off hair when removed. For sterile it probably also helps to not have hair follicles in the mix. And for massages, not having hair on the legs when being rubbed by the masseuse is better. Pro bike racers get lots of massages on their legs.

[Frank Krygowski]

I could use one right now. It was a hilly ride today.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

But, Officer, he just came out of nowhere and I couldn't stop in time.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Yes, I've heard all those arguments, but:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/144471-why-do-male-cyclists-shave-their-legs/

Male road cyclists have been shaving their legs for over 100 years,
its a tradition of the sport. Each new generation of young competitive
cyclists naturally adopts the habits of those they aspire to be, so
having shaved legs has become part and parcel of being perceived as a
serious cyclist. The more serious you become about your cycling, the
more shaving your legs becomes a way of fitting in with your cycling
peers. In his book "The Long Distance Cyclist's Handbook",
professional cycling coach Simon Doughty says, "Racing cyclists shave
their legs, some really don't know why, but hey, everyone else does it
so it must be right!"

[Graham]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message news:r3f7kb94p9uqhcivi...@4ax.com...

More grist for the mill:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZnrE17Jg3I

Graham.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[jbeattie]

On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 1:57:38 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
<snip>

> > I'm used to this kind of crap from the P-U driving urban cowboys in
> > Clackamas County, and I actually find it easier to deal with them
> > than the goddamned Mercedes SUV driving ass-wipes who think they own
> > the road and who, even when confronted, think they have the right to
> > run "impolite" bicyclists off the road. You would think that with all
> > the supposed "bike culture" in PDX that ordinary drivers would have a
> > better understanding of the law -- but they clearly do not.
> >
>
> In our area one such road is White Rock Road, south of Hwy 50 from
> Sacramento towards the east. Riding on the right as is law in California
> results in risky passes by motorists. Riding more lane center result in
> people getting mad, honking, riding up real close, then flooring it and
> do an even more risky pass. I've had to bail there once. From then on I
> only rode that stretch in my car. Until they build at least a bike lane.

I don't know White Rock -- at least some parts look fine. http://tinyurl.com/z988gua I was about here: http://tinyurl.com/jm3cfws Getting ready for a decent. It's really hard not to be lane center because there isn't much of a lane, but if you hang to the right, cars will pass, and then when they encounter oncoming traffic, they don't drop back, they squeeze you on to the shoulder or off an embankment. All to get to a stop sign a half mile away -- or 100 yards away, or ten feet away. Those are the people I don't understand. They run you off the road to turn-off or stop ten yards later.

The P-U drivers slightly east of town don't usually do that sort of thing, although they are threatening in different ways, and last week some dick in a truck crossed the center line coming from the other direction to give me and my son a hard time. Out here: http://tinyurl.com/jn3vbby

Most of my leisure riding is on shoulderless, narrow roads which was fine until the explosion of suburbs. Back in the day, it was just the occasional farmer John or the urban cowboy giving the faggots in Lycra a hard time. Now its guys in expensive SUVs and mid-life crisis-mobiles trying to cut around city traffic. I'm moving to Cameron Park! Folsom!

-- Jay Beattie.

[Duane]

On 24/05/2016 10:16 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 1:57:38 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> <snip>
>>> I'm used to this kind of crap from the P-U driving urban cowboys in
>>> Clackamas County, and I actually find it easier to deal with them
>>> than the goddamned Mercedes SUV driving ass-wipes who think they own
>>> the road and who, even when confronted, think they have the right to
>>> run "impolite" bicyclists off the road. You would think that with all
>>> the supposed "bike culture" in PDX that ordinary drivers would have a
>>> better understanding of the law -- but they clearly do not.
>>>
>>
>> In our area one such road is White Rock Road, south of Hwy 50 from
>> Sacramento towards the east. Riding on the right as is law in California
>> results in risky passes by motorists. Riding more lane center result in
>> people getting mad, honking, riding up real close, then flooring it and
>> do an even more risky pass. I've had to bail there once. From then on I
>> only rode that stretch in my car. Until they build at least a bike lane.
>
> I don't know White Rock -- at least some parts look fine. http://tinyurl.com/z988gua I was about here: http://tinyurl.com/jm3cfws Getting ready for a decent. It's really hard not to be lane center because there isn't much of a lane, but if you hang to the right, cars will pass, and then when they encounter oncoming traffic, they don't drop back, they squeeze you on to the shoulder or off an embankment. All to get to a stop sign a half mile away -- or 100 yards away, or ten feet away. Those are the people I don't understand. They run you off the road to turn-off or stop ten yards later.
>

Happens often though. I have a guy yesterday pass me around a turn.
I'm lane center and he passes half way in the other lane and halfway in
my lane. I was farther over and saw the oncoming car so I stopped my
group and sure enough he saw the oncoming car and pulled into where we
would have been. Like you say, to get to a stop sign 10 seconds sooner.
People are assholes sometime.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 9:42:13 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 23 May 2016 17:16:21 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >

> >Shaved legs are better for PRO bike racers because WHEN they crash and get scabs on their legs, the bandages applied will not tear off hair when removed. For sterile it probably also helps to not have hair follicles in the mix. And for massages, not having hair on the legs when being rubbed by the masseuse is better. Pro bike racers get lots of massages on their legs.
>
> Yes, I've heard all those arguments, but:
> http://www.livestrong.com/article/144471-why-do-male-cyclists-shave-their-legs/
>

Wow. The article you linked says EXACTLY the same thing I wrote. Amazing how right I am.

From your article linked above.

"If you’re cycling competitively or cycling regularly in a group, you will inevitably crash at some point. The resulting road-rash injuries are much easier to clean and treat if the skin is hair free. Tales of hospital treatments administered by matter-of-fact nurses with scrubbing brushes are favorites among seasoned cyclists and provide a good incentive for shaving your legs. In an article on athletic skin injuries published in The Physician and Sports Medicine, Dr. Rodney S.W. Basler reports that having to scrub abrasions to remove dirt particles actually hinders the skin’s natural repair process."

"Top-level cyclists competing in grueling, long-distance road races rely on the skills of a massage therapist to relieve the aches and pains of a day in the saddle. The massage experience is a much more pleasant one for all concerned if there are no leg hairs to be pulled in the process."

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Tuesday, May 24, 2016 at 9:32:27 AM UTC-5, Duane wrote:
> People are assholes sometime.
>

??? All the time.

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-24 07:32, Duane wrote:
> On 24/05/2016 10:16 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 1:57:38 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>> I'm used to this kind of crap from the P-U driving urban cowboys in
>>>> Clackamas County, and I actually find it easier to deal with them
>>>> than the goddamned Mercedes SUV driving ass-wipes who think they own
>>>> the road and who, even when confronted, think they have the right to
>>>> run "impolite" bicyclists off the road. You would think that with all
>>>> the supposed "bike culture" in PDX that ordinary drivers would have a
>>>> better understanding of the law -- but they clearly do not.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In our area one such road is White Rock Road, south of Hwy 50 from
>>> Sacramento towards the east. Riding on the right as is law in California
>>> results in risky passes by motorists. Riding more lane center result in
>>> people getting mad, honking, riding up real close, then flooring it and
>>> do an even more risky pass. I've had to bail there once. From then on I
>>> only rode that stretch in my car. Until they build at least a bike lane.
>>
>> I don't know White Rock -- at least some parts look fine.
>> http://tinyurl.com/z988gua

That's a luxury stretch inside Rancho Cordova. Where I had to bail last
time was around here:

https://goo.gl/maps/BeQsHo4pAAq


>> ... I was about here:

>> http://tinyurl.com/jm3cfws Getting ready for a decent. It's really
>> hard not to be lane center because there isn't much of a lane, but if
>> you hang to the right, cars will pass, and then when they encounter
>> oncoming traffic, they don't drop back, they squeeze you on to the
>> shoulder or off an embankment. All to get to a stop sign a half mile
>> away -- or 100 yards away, or ten feet away. Those are the people I
>> don't understand. They run you off the road to turn-off or stop ten
>> yards later.
>>
>
> Happens often though. I have a guy yesterday pass me around a turn. I'm
> lane center and he passes half way in the other lane and halfway in my
> lane. I was farther over and saw the oncoming car so I stopped my group
> and sure enough he saw the oncoming car and pulled into where we would
> have been. Like you say, to get to a stop sign 10 seconds sooner.
> People are assholes sometime.
>

On White Rock and similar roads if you ride into the lane in the
afternoon you have a major line of cars behind you in less than one
minute. On more minute and the first drivers start honking and revving.
The third minute and someone can fly into full rage.

I do not ride there anymore. Only in my car.

Even stretches down there with awfully paltry bike lanes are dangerous.
Folks like the guy in the white contractor truck sometimes ride partway
into the bike lane for miles, wolf down a sandwich or whatever and then
suddenly ... "OH S..T!"

https://goo.gl/maps/JNYdbWHEJr42

Therefore, on a bicycle I always take a northern route into the valley
which looks like this:

https://localwiki.org/sac/american%20river%20bike%20trail/_files/biketrail.jpg

If you want to be unfettered by speed limits and don't care about scenery:

http://centralcaliforniacycling.com/images/FolsomSouthCanal.jpg

>
>> The P-U drivers slightly east of town don't usually do that sort of
>> thing, although they are threatening in different ways, and last week
>> some dick in a truck crossed the center line coming from the other
>> direction to give me and my son a hard time. Out here:
>> http://tinyurl.com/jn3vbby
>>
>> Most of my leisure riding is on shoulderless, narrow roads which was
>> fine until the explosion of suburbs. Back in the day, it was just the
>> occasional farmer John or the urban cowboy giving the faggots in Lycra
>> a hard time. Now its guys in expensive SUVs and mid-life
>> crisis-mobiles trying to cut around city traffic. I'm moving to
>> Cameron Park! Folsom!
>>

Folsom is better. Super bicycling infrastructure, seamless connectors
into the American River Bike Path which can take you all the way to
Davis. I have met several people who bought a house there for this
reason. That city has among the smartest administrators I ever saw. They
understand what true win-win constellations are.

In Cameron Park you need to prefer the MTB. Then it's cool though
because that gets you into Placerville and other towns without even
seeing cars much. Horses, yes, lots of them, but I like horses. They
don't fly into rages. Some do expect carrots though (with owner's
permission).

[James]

Opinions are like arseholes. Everybody has one.

--
JS

[John B.]

On Tue, 24 May 2016 10:32:24 -0400, Duane <duane....@group-upc.com>
wrote:

>On 24/05/2016 10:16 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 1:57:38 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>> I'm used to this kind of crap from the P-U driving urban cowboys in
>>>> Clackamas County, and I actually find it easier to deal with them
>>>> than the goddamned Mercedes SUV driving ass-wipes who think they own
>>>> the road and who, even when confronted, think they have the right to
>>>> run "impolite" bicyclists off the road. You would think that with all
>>>> the supposed "bike culture" in PDX that ordinary drivers would have a
>>>> better understanding of the law -- but they clearly do not.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In our area one such road is White Rock Road, south of Hwy 50 from
>>> Sacramento towards the east. Riding on the right as is law in California
>>> results in risky passes by motorists. Riding more lane center result in
>>> people getting mad, honking, riding up real close, then flooring it and
>>> do an even more risky pass. I've had to bail there once. From then on I
>>> only rode that stretch in my car. Until they build at least a bike lane.
>>
>> I don't know White Rock -- at least some parts look fine. http://tinyurl.com/z988gua I was about here: http://tinyurl.com/jm3cfws Getting ready for a decent. It's really hard not to be lane center because there isn't much of a lane, but if you hang to the right, cars will pass, and then when they encounter oncoming traffic, they don't drop back, they squeeze you on to the shoulder or off an embankment. All to get to a stop sign a half mile away -- or 100 yards away, or ten feet away. Those are the people I don't understand. They run you off the road to turn-off or stop ten yards later.
>>
>
>Happens often though. I have a guy yesterday pass me around a turn.
>I'm lane center and he passes half way in the other lane and halfway in
>my lane. I was farther over and saw the oncoming car so I stopped my
>group and sure enough he saw the oncoming car and pulled into where we
>would have been. Like you say, to get to a stop sign 10 seconds sooner.
> People are assholes sometime.

If we asked him, I wonder what the pickup driver would have said about
the bicycles :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

Having talked to these people, it's all the stuff one would expect -- mostly wrong understanding of the law, assumptions about who paid for what, how dangerous it is to be riding on these roads (oblivious to the irony) and on and on. The subtext is always "get out of my way." With that said, I've seen large groups of cyclists clog roads in violation of the law. I'd be pissed if I were in a car, but that obviously does not excuse criminal menacing.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

There is a surpring number of low-lifes on the road whose only
achievements in life so far seems to have been the purchase of a car and
racking up credit card debt. They become really dangerous when they are
soused or under "recreational" drugs.


> ... With that said, I've seen large groups of cyclists clog roads

> in violation of the law. I'd be pissed if I were in a car, but that
> obviously does not excuse criminal menacing.
>

Often similar to car driver. The ones with the fancier clothes and bikes
demand more road. But for some reason only in large groups while car
drivers with some fancy sports car also do that alone.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/25/2016 10:12 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> With that said, I've seen large groups of cyclists clog roads in violation of the law. I'd be pissed if I were in a car, but that obviously does not excuse criminal menacing.
>

The most common "road clogging" I see on group rides is at stop signs.
Ten cyclists pull up to a stop sign at a quiet intersection of two-lane
roads. They pull out water bottles, discuss routes, tell stories or
whatever - then a car approaches, and they scramble to wave the car
around in the other lane and/or move onto the shoulder of the road.

As a bonus, four of those cyclists will be standing in the left lane. A
motorist will approach and try to turn into their road, and everything
stops until they manage to squeeze into the right lane with their
buddies, four or five abreast. :-/

I've seen this countless times. Fortunately, I've never seen motorists
act hostile about it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Duane]

We weren't a big group and we were legal. If we were a car he wouldn't
have passed in that situation. Some people don't like cyclists. I doubt
they realize they will kill someone out of annoyance but screw them. What
would the pickup driver have said? Fuck him.

--
duane

[John B.]

I am forced to say that I find all this a bit, well rather,
surprising.

You see, I live in a country that has far more auto deaths than every
other country in the world, except one ( Libya - 73.4 deaths per
100,000 inhabitants, Thailand 36.2, U.S. 10.6, the U.K. 2.9) and yet I
have never experienced the problems that Usians seem to have. In fact
on a 1 hour ride, during possibly peak traffic, yesterday I had 3
cases of automobiles entering the road I was riding on from the left
(Usians think right) and they paused to let me ride by.

But, of course, this is The Land of Smiles :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I believe that every state in the union has a traffic commandment,
"Thou shall not impede others", or words to that effect, which to my
knowledge is enforced. Why should a bicycle be different?

In fact I read a statue somewhere, and I can't remember where, that "a
bicycle traveling at the same speed as other traffic may ride in any
lane but if slower then other traffic must travel on the outside edge
of the road so as not to impede other traffic".

Perhaps it was:
Oregon Revised Statutes (ORS) Pertaining to Bicycles
814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions; penalty.

(1) A person commits the offense of improper use of lanes by a bicycle
if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at less than the
normal speed of traffic using the roadway at that time and place under
the existing conditions and the person does not ride as close as
practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway.
--
cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Thais may be #2 in auto crash deaths but you're #1 in state
pension program upsidedownedness, just a bit worse than Brasil!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

These laws vary state by state. I think it's more common for the AFRAP
("As far right as practicable") laws to give examples of why bicyclists
may ride more toward lane center. Ohio law does a very good job of
that, listing about six specific reasons (IIRC) and saying that there
may be more.

The fundamental point is that cyclists do have a right to safe use of
the road. As with operators of farm tractors, garbage trucks, delivery
vans, mopeds, etc. etc., they are not forced to stop traveling or
endanger themselves to save someone a few seconds.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

John's ORS cite is clipped -- we have all the usual exceptions to the AFRAP requirement (when dangerous, when traveling the speed of traffic, to prevent unsafe passing when the lane is too narrow for two vehicles side-by-side, setting up for turns, etc.). Our law is unusual, however, in that you have to take the bike lane if there is one, again subject to safety exceptions.

The impeding and slow moving vehicle laws put a limit on how long a bicycle can occupy the lane at less than the speed of traffic (but in Oregon, no "five car" type limit as in Washington). In most rural riding situations, there is plenty of room to pass, and these laws don't come in to play. In higher traffic situations, they do.

Knowing when to take the lane requires some judgment. Courtesy requires that bikes (skateboards, cars, mopeds, etc., etc.) not unnecessarily clog the lane. I take the lane when it is clear that cars or buses will pass unsafely. As Sir notes, taking the lane carries some risk, but lately, I've found it to be more risky not to take the lane in some places.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/26/2016 9:57 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> Knowing when to take the lane requires some judgment. Courtesy requires that bikes (skateboards, cars, mopeds, etc., etc.) not unnecessarily clog the lane. I take the lane when it is clear that cars or buses will pass unsafely. As Sir notes, taking the lane carries some risk, but lately, I've found it to be more risky not to take the lane in some places.
>

I agree with that paragraph. That's been my attitude for decades.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about here, but I think you
may be talking about government employees who receive a pension, which
I am not familiar with.

There is also a national pension plan for non-government citizens
and those over 60 collect a monthly stipend which increases with age.
In addition there is free medical care for citizens over 65.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Frank, no one has said that bicycles must not use the highway. But, by
the same token, nor have you demonstrated that they have the right to
impede traffic.

You will note the intent of the Oregon statue that I quoted above.
that: "if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at less than
the normal speed of traffic".

In short "thou shall not impede".
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 26 May 2016 06:57:13 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie

Not really "clipped", In fact that is the entire first paragraph in
the regulation :-)

But, yes, it does have some provisions further down the page setting
forth specific exceptions to the statute.
Such as,

(a) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle that is
proceeding in the same direction\, (b) When preparing to execute a
left turn, (c) When reasonably necessary to avoid hazardous conditions
including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or
moving vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or
other conditions that make continued operation along the right curb or
edge unsafe or to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on the roadway that
is too narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by side.
Nothing in this paragraph excuses the operator of a bicycle from the
requirements under ORS 811.425 or from the penalties for failure to
comply with those requirements.

(d) When operating within a city as near as practicable to the left
curb or edge of a roadway that is designated to allow traffic to move
in only one direction along the roadway. A bicycle that is operated
under this paragraph is subject to the same requirements and
exceptions when operating along the left curb or edge as are
applicable when a bicycle is operating along the right curb or edge of
the roadway.

(e) When operating a bicycle alongside not more than one other bicycle
as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a single lane
and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable
movement of traffic.

(f) When operating on a bicycle lane or bicycle path.

Note paragraph (e).

The reference to ORS 811.425 is to a statute that concerns "failure of
slower vehicle to yield to overtaking vehicle", and reads:

811.425 Failure of slower driver to yield to overtaking vehicle;
penalty.

(1) A person commits the offense of failure of a slower driver to
yield to overtaking vehicles if the person is driving a vehicle and
the person fails to move the person's vehicle off the main traveled
portion of the highway into an area sufficient for safe turnout when:

(a) The driver of the overtaken vehicle is proceeding at a speed less
than a designated speed under ORS 911.105;

(b) The driver of the overtaking vehicle is proceeding at a speed in
conformity with ORS 811.105;

(c) The highway is a two directional, two-lane highway; and

(d) There is no clear lane for passing available to the driver of the
overtaking vehicle.

(2) This section does not apply to the driver of a vehicle in a
funeral procession.


Note: Paragraph 1 (a)

But, I still see nothing that states that simply because it is a
bicycle it has the right to impede traffic. In fact, my admittedly
limited, reading seems to demonstrate that a bicycle has no inherent
right to impede traffic at all.

It might be added that the "Oregon Bicycle Manual" states in one
instance "You and a companion may ride side by side on the road, but
only if you don't impede other traffic. If traffic doesn't have enough
room to pass you safely, ride single file.

The next paragraph defines reasons for "taking the lane"

"When You Should Take a Lane
If there is no shoulder or bike lane, and the travel lane is narrow,
ride closer to the center of the lane."

--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

The reality of the matter is that the cop deciding whether you were
impeding or not is the law. Yeah, you can try to fight them in court but
it's an uphill battle because judges usually side with cops when it's
their word against yours.

In the absence of cops the soused dude coming from behind in that
dilapidated truck is the law. Or at least thinks he is and behaves
accordingly. Getting him to behave would almost require a bike equiped
with a gun turret.

[jbeattie]

It's not the whole statute.

All the sections work together (mostly) and echo what I was saying about country roads where there is generally a "clear lane" for passing.

Impeding is a different section (ORS 811.130), and the yielding to faster traffic (ORS 811.425) does not apply to roads with more than one lane in each direction. AFRAP (ORS 814.430) applies, and its hard to argue that it is necessary to take the lane in a two-lane each way road to prevent "unsafe passing." The riding abreast section is odd, but it works, too. On a two-lane road each way, you can ride abreast so long as you are not impeding the "normal and reasonable" movement of traffic.

Bikes and cars are subject to the same impeding laws -- so are golf carts (although golf carts also are subject to the slow moving vehicle law). Bikes don't get a free pass, and I don't think anyone is claiming that they do.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:27 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>
> The reality of the matter is that the cop deciding whether you were
> impeding or not is the law. Yeah, you can try to fight them in court but
> it's an uphill battle because judges usually side with cops when it's
> their word against yours.

This is like worrying about hypothetical mountain lions.

I have taken the lane in front of cop cars when necessary, with never a
problem. Some of my riding buddies are cops and ex-cops. They ride as I do.

It's not impossible for a cop to be ignorant, but it's pretty rare. I've had
precisely one encounter with a hostile cop who was telling us we had to ride on
top of the white fog line. After 20 minutes or more of careful conversation,
he agreed we were right and wished us a good ride.

> In the absence of cops the soused dude coming from behind in that
> dilapidated truck is the law. Or at least thinks he is and behaves
> accordingly. Getting him to behave would almost require a bike equiped
> with a gun turret.

<sigh> Joerg, you seem to live in a terrible, terrifying universe. I'm glad
mine is very much different.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 11:00:22 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

> On Thu, 26 May 2016 09:22:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> >
> >The fundamental point is that cyclists do have a right to safe use of
> >the road. As with operators of farm tractors, garbage trucks, delivery
> >vans, mopeds, etc. etc., they are not forced to stop traveling or
> >endanger themselves to save someone a few seconds.
>
> Frank, no one has said that bicycles must not use the highway. But, by
> the same token, nor have you demonstrated that they have the right to
> impede traffic.
>
> You will note the intent of the Oregon statue that I quoted above.
> that: "if the person is operating a bicycle on a roadway at less than
> the normal speed of traffic".
>
> In short "thou shall not impede".

Read this:
http://www.ohiobikelawyer.com/bike-law-101/2010/09/the-selz-case-revisited/

- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

With the caveat that he does not live in Ohio which has a rather unique impeding law. I wonder what the law is in Thailand.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-27 11:02, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:27 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>
>> The reality of the matter is that the cop deciding whether you were
>> impeding or not is the law. Yeah, you can try to fight them in court but
>> it's an uphill battle because judges usually side with cops when it's
>> their word against yours.
>
> This is like worrying about hypothetical mountain lions.
>

ROFL!

One case of many:

http://bikinginla.com/2010/05/29/misinterpretation-of-bike-safety-trumps-state-law-in-pasadena/

> I have taken the lane in front of cop cars when necessary, with never a
> problem. Some of my riding buddies are cops and ex-cops. They ride as I do.
>
> It's not impossible for a cop to be ignorant, but it's pretty rare. I've had
> precisely one encounter with a hostile cop who was telling us we had to ride on
> top of the white fog line. After 20 minutes or more of careful conversation,
> he agreed we were right and wished us a good ride.
>

See above. Quote "In an astounding display of the department's failure
to understand either state bicycle laws or basic bike safety, a
certified cycling instructor has given up after spending $4000 to fight
a ticket for riding too slowly and too far out in the traffic lane in
Pasadena".

>> In the absence of cops the soused dude coming from behind in that
>> dilapidated truck is the law. Or at least thinks he is and behaves
>> accordingly. Getting him to behave would almost require a bike equiped
>> with a gun turret.
>
> <sigh> Joerg, you seem to live in a terrible, terrifying universe. I'm glad
> mine is very much different.
>

Brandi Weaver here in Sacramento just paid the ultimate price in such a
case :-(

Except the soused truck driver was a woman.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 3:05:17 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-05-27 11:02, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:27 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> >>
> >> The reality of the matter is that the cop deciding whether you were
> >> impeding or not is the law. Yeah, you can try to fight them in court but
> >> it's an uphill battle because judges usually side with cops when it's
> >> their word against yours.
> >
> > This is like worrying about hypothetical mountain lions.
> >
>
> ROFL!
>
> One case of many:
>

> http://bikinginla.com/2010/05/29/misinterpretation-of-bike-safety-trumps-state-law-in-pasadena/comp other hazards.

You seem to be contending that every cyclist must skim the right edge of the
road any time a motor vehicle approaches from the rear. That's not correct,
it's not what competent cyclists do, it's not what state laws require, it's
not what's taught in cycling courses, it's not what most police demand, etc.
One bad example doesn't change that.

>
>
> > I have taken the lane in front of cop cars when necessary, with never a
> > problem. Some of my riding buddies are cops and ex-cops. They ride as I do.
> >
> > It's not impossible for a cop to be ignorant, but it's pretty rare. I've had
> > precisely one encounter with a hostile cop who was telling us we had to ride on
> > top of the white fog line. After 20 minutes or more of careful conversation,
> > he agreed we were right and wished us a good ride.
> >
>
> See above. Quote "In an astounding display of the department's failure
> to understand either state bicycle laws or basic bike safety, a
> certified cycling instructor has given up after spending $4000 to fight
> a ticket for riding too slowly and too far out in the traffic lane in
> Pasadena".

Do you understand that it was a "failure to understand either state bicycle
laws or basic bike safety"?

> >> In the absence of cops the soused dude coming from behind in that
> >> dilapidated truck is the law. Or at least thinks he is and behaves
> >> accordingly. Getting him to behave would almost require a bike equiped
> >> with a gun turret.
> >
> > <sigh> Joerg, you seem to live in a terrible, terrifying universe. I'm glad
> > mine is very much different.
> >
>
> Brandi Weaver here in Sacramento just paid the ultimate price in such a
> case :-(
>
> Except the soused truck driver was a woman.

<sigh> Yes, and there are hundreds of examples of pedestrians being run over
while on sidewalks. There are dozens of examples of cars crashing into houses.
Are you going to spend the rest of your life in a concrete tower?

- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-27 12:40, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Fri, 27 May 2016

> Or a small movie camera, which are now not very expensive, and have
> easily enough resolution to record licence plates legibly.
> Hence the explosion in their popularity.
>

Yes, it would be nice to have a couple of those, one on the rear and one
up front. But unless tied into the vehicle power bus (which deplorably
most bicycles don't have) and running "round robin" they won't do much
good. Or only in cases of lengthy aggravated road rage if you have to
turn it on every time.

Then carry a sticker below the luggage rack reflector "Camera running -
please smile ... and don't pick your nose" :-)

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-27 12:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 3:05:17 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-05-27 11:02, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:27 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The reality of the matter is that the cop deciding whether you were
>>>> impeding or not is the law. Yeah, you can try to fight them in court but
>>>> it's an uphill battle because judges usually side with cops when it's
>>>> their word against yours.
>>>
>>> This is like worrying about hypothetical mountain lions.
>>>
>>
>> ROFL!
>>
>> One case of many:
>>
>> http://bikinginla.com/2010/05/29/misinterpretation-of-bike-safety-trumps-state-law-in-pasadena/comp other hazards.
>
> You seem to be contending that every cyclist must skim the right edge of the
> road any time a motor vehicle approaches from the rear. That's not correct,
> it's not what competent cyclists do, it's not what state laws require, it's
> not what's taught in cycling courses, it's not what most police demand, etc.
> One bad example doesn't change that.
>

Makes no difference when it come to the ticket.

>>
>>> I have taken the lane in front of cop cars when necessary, with never a
>>> problem. Some of my riding buddies are cops and ex-cops. They ride as I do.
>>>
>>> It's not impossible for a cop to be ignorant, but it's pretty rare. I've had
>>> precisely one encounter with a hostile cop who was telling us we had to ride on
>>> top of the white fog line. After 20 minutes or more of careful conversation,
>>> he agreed we were right and wished us a good ride.
>>>
>>
>> See above. Quote "In an astounding display of the department's failure
>> to understand either state bicycle laws or basic bike safety, a
>> certified cycling instructor has given up after spending $4000 to fight
>> a ticket for riding too slowly and too far out in the traffic lane in
>> Pasadena".
>
> Do you understand that it was a "failure to understand either state bicycle
> laws or basic bike safety"?
>

The sub-topic here was "And you'll get the ticket anyhow". Q.e.d., as
the old Romans would have said.

>>>> In the absence of cops the soused dude coming from behind in that
>>>> dilapidated truck is the law. Or at least thinks he is and behaves
>>>> accordingly. Getting him to behave would almost require a bike equiped
>>>> with a gun turret.
>>>
>>> <sigh> Joerg, you seem to live in a terrible, terrifying universe. I'm glad
>>> mine is very much different.
>>>
>>
>> Brandi Weaver here in Sacramento just paid the ultimate price in such a
>> case :-(
>>
>> Except the soused truck driver was a woman.
>
> <sigh> Yes, and there are hundreds of examples of pedestrians being run over
> while on sidewalks. There are dozens of examples of cars crashing into houses.
> Are you going to spend the rest of your life in a concrete tower?
>

I prefer segregated bike paths because there that does not happen. Plus
less stress, cleaner air, and so on. If there's only tens of miles of
lane riding on a busy thoroughfare I use the car instead.

Why should I make life more miserable when it is not necessary?

[jbeattie]

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 12:05:17 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-05-27 11:02, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:27 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> >>
> >> The reality of the matter is that the cop deciding whether you were
> >> impeding or not is the law. Yeah, you can try to fight them in court but
> >> it's an uphill battle because judges usually side with cops when it's
> >> their word against yours.
> >
> > This is like worrying about hypothetical mountain lions.
> >
>
> ROFL!
>
> One case of many:
>
> http://bikinginla.com/2010/05/29/misinterpretation-of-bike-safety-trumps-state-law-in-pasadena/

Really? A six year old article involving a single ticket?

People beat tickets all the time, and its the rare police office who would issue a ticket for a non-offense in the first place. http://www.bikelaw.com/2016/02/04/biker-obstructing-traffic-nope-roll-the-videotape/

Most of these tickets are handed out to critical mass riders and riders who bait cops. I think more tickets should be handed out around here. Errant bicyclists and pedestrians are a considerable threat to me -- not quite as bad as the mountain lions, coywolves and salmon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo-XnPJRJVg -- but bad.




-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-27 15:54, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 12:05:17 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-05-27 11:02, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:27 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The reality of the matter is that the cop deciding whether you
>>>> were impeding or not is the law. Yeah, you can try to fight
>>>> them in court but it's an uphill battle because judges usually
>>>> side with cops when it's their word against yours.
>>>
>>> This is like worrying about hypothetical mountain lions.
>>>
>>
>> ROFL!
>>
>> One case of many:
>>
>> http://bikinginla.com/2010/05/29/misinterpretation-of-bike-safety-trumps-state-law-in-pasadena/
>
>>
>
> Really? A six year old article involving a single ticket?
>

It's just one example, the first one that came up.

You can go to the mat and have a good chance of winning. But that
requires you to be rich or find a lawyer who takes it on a pro-bono basis.

> People beat tickets all the time, and its the rare police office who
> would issue a ticket for a non-offense in the first place.
> http://www.bikelaw.com/2016/02/04/biker-obstructing-traffic-nope-roll-the-videotape/
>

People lose against the cops all the time as well.

Even in your state things can become outright weird. Do you know what
happened in this case? Was there an appeal?

http://bikeportland.org/2009/12/18/judge-woman-hit-in-unpainted-bike-lane-is-not-protected-by-law-27332

[...]

[John B.]

On Fri, 27 May 2016 09:57:29 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie

No it isn't. and I thought that I made it very clear by stating

"814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions; penalty. (1)"

Which I assumed would indicate to readers that I was quoting a single
paragraph of the Statute.

>Impeding is a different section (ORS 811.130), and the yielding to faster traffic (ORS 811.425) does not apply to roads with more than one lane in each direction. AFRAP (ORS 814.430) applies, and its hard to argue that it is necessary to take the lane in a two-lane each way road to prevent "unsafe passing." 814.430: Improper use of lanes; exceptions; penalty.
>> >> >
>> >> > (1)

>Bikes and cars are subject to the same impeding laws -- so are golf carts (although golf carts also are subject to the slow moving vehicle law). Bikes don't get a free pass, and I don't think anyone is claiming that they do.
>
>-- Jay Beattie.
>

Odd or not, it simply underscores the fact that simply because a
bicycle is a bicycle it has no intrinsic right to impede other
traffic, or for that matter to evade any other traffic regulation.

Which is what I have been arguing.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 27 May 2016 12:05:22 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2016-05-27 11:02, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:40:27 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>> The reality of the matter is that the cop deciding whether you were
>>> impeding or not is the law. Yeah, you can try to fight them in court but
>>> it's an uphill battle because judges usually side with cops when it's
>>> their word against yours.
>>
>> This is like worrying about hypothetical mountain lions.
>>
>
>ROFL!
>
>One case of many:
>
>http://bikinginla.com/2010/05/29/misinterpretation-of-bike-safety-trumps-state-law-in-pasadena/
>
>
>> I have taken the lane in front of cop cars when necessary, with never a
>> problem. Some of my riding buddies are cops and ex-cops. They ride as I do.
>>
>> It's not impossible for a cop to be ignorant, but it's pretty rare. I've had
>> precisely one encounter with a hostile cop who was telling us we had to ride on
>> top of the white fog line. After 20 minutes or more of careful conversation,
>> he agreed we were right and wished us a good ride.
>>
>
>See above. Quote "In an astounding display of the department's failure
>to understand either state bicycle laws or basic bike safety, a
>certified cycling instructor has given up after spending $4000 to fight
>a ticket for riding too slowly and too far out in the traffic lane in
>Pasadena".

What $4,000?

I'm not sure of California law but I believe that in most states an
individual is entitled to defend himself. And, I believe that most,
probably all, states have provision to allow an individual to recover
his legal costs in the event that he proves that he was falsely
accused.

Way back when I was in collage I was ticketed for running a stop sign.
I went to traffic court, defended myself, and after showing the judge
photographs of the stop sign and the weeds and bushes that had grown
so high as to mask the sign was judged innocent.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

The law in Thailand is that "a bicycle, or motorcycle, will drive on
the L.H. side of the road" and there are signs posted on many roads
that state "bicycles and motorcycles keep left". You can, and I know
one bloke that did, be ticketed for not staying on the left side of
the road.

I did ask at the office that tests drivers and issues licenses in
Bangkok, and the officer explained that the rule meant that you were
supposed to ride "on the side" of the road so as not to slow down
faster traffic" (my translation of the Thai).

Note: In Thailand "motorcycle" is normally considered as a 90 - 125cc
motorcycle, what might be termed a "motor scooter". The literal
translation of the word used for "motorcycle" is bicycle with motor.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 27 May 2016 20:28:54 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> considered Fri, 27 May 2016 10:36:27

>See above, namely:

>"to avoid unsafe operation in a lane on the roadway that
>is too narrow for a bicycle and vehicle to travel safely side by
>side."

Or, perhaps:

(1) A person commits the offense of failure of a slower driver to
yield to overtaking vehicles if the person is driving a vehicle and
the person fails to move the person's vehicle off the main traveled
portion of the highway into an area sufficient for safe turnout when:

(a) The driver of the overtaken vehicle is proceeding at a speed less
than a designated speed under ORS 911.105;

Or:

(e) When operating a bicycle alongside not more than one other bicycle
as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a single lane
and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable
movement of traffic.

--
cheers,

John B.