Toughest road bike tires?

[Joerg]

While I really like Continental Gatorskins because of their tough
running surface and acceptable cost per mile they have one major
drawback that almost all "modern" tires have: Weak side walls. I have
tubes with 0.120" (3mm) wall thickness in there but on Tuesday I got a
thorn through a sidewall and it went all the way ... psheeeoooouuu ...
resulting in a nice long walk home because getting those Gatorskins off
a flat Mavic rim out on the street is next to impossible. Other
Gatorskins came to premature grief because a side wall failed and an
"aneurysm" developed. So once I am through with my stash of remaining
Gatorskins I want to buy something better.

Which 700c/25mm tire has high puncture resistance _and_ thick sturdy
sidewalls like they were in the good old days? Wishlist:

1. 25mm wide would be nice. 28mm could become a challenge.

2. Doesn't have to be a racing slick. A coarse tread might actually be
nice for dirt roads. A cyclocross tire would be good if it isn't
fast-wearing on the road (like MTB tires unfortunately are).

3. Cost: $0.02/mile is what Gatorskins cost and I find that ok for a
bicycle tire.

4. Weight: Does not matter at all. Wire bead is fine.

5. Rolling resistance: Does not matter. I don't need to win a race but I
do need it to withstand very ugly road surfaces. And it must handle
weight because I often schlepp stuff on the road bike (luggage rack).

6. Ideally, easier mounting on flat rims. The Gatorskins seem a bit
undersized and only go on or come off my Mavic Module 3 Argent D rims
with brute force. On Tuesday I even snapped a nice Topeak lever getting
it off to fix the flat.

Other question: Does anyone know where to buy those thick tubes? Not the
regular Sunlites but ones with thick walls all around (not just towards
the running surface). I bought mine at a LBS that now went out of
business so I can't buy any there or ask. I fixed the tube that blew
Tuesday but it's iffy, was a big gash.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Lou Holtman]

Get solid ones and done with it. Geezzzz....

--
Lou

[Bertrand]

I've never used them, but the Schwalbe Marathon Plus seem to be the popular
tires for very tough conditions, and are available in 25mm:

https://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/schwalbe-marathon-plus-700c

They are supposed to be hard to mount, though.

[Joerg]

Thanks, that one goes on the list. The review on 8/28/2014 sounds like
the ticket, quote "was tired of flats and was getting sidewall blowouts
with Gator Skins. We were planning an 800 mile trip on the coast from
Washington back to the Bay Area. I needed a puncture proof tire. My
research turned up the Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires. I bought them
knowing they were difficult to install. And they were, but because they
are almost bullet proof they are very stiff".

That indicates that the side walls are better and the puncture
resistance is similar. Also hard to mount but one can't have it all.

The guy at review 11/27/2015 got 3000 miles out of them so the price of
$42.64 for the 25mm is actually better per mile than Gatorskins:

https://smile.amazon.com/Schwalbe-Marathon-700x28-Allround-Beaded/dp/B0025XOWP4

In the picture it looks like it could be 2-ply which would be great.

Thanks, Bertrand.

[avag...@gmail.com]

not all Conti have thinwalls. Thinwalls give handling. Lose the thinwall....move toward wood.

buy another Conti, doahn give your bucks to the Chinese

yawl doahn know how to mount n dismount tires..

[sms]

On 6/17/2016 3:50 PM, Bertrand wrote:

> I've never used them, but the Schwalbe Marathon Plus seem to be the
> popular tires for very tough conditions, and are available in 25mm:
>
> https://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/schwalbe-marathon-plus-700c
>
> They are supposed to be hard to mount, though.

I put the 20" x 1.35" on my Dahon folder. They were not exceptionally
hard to mount, though I did need to use tire irons.

[somebody]

On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 18:50:33 -0400, "Bertrand"
<bhstempo1ATc...@invalid.com> wrote:

...

>
>I've never used them, but the Schwalbe Marathon Plus seem to be the popular
>tires for very tough conditions, and are available in 25mm:
>
>https://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/schwalbe-marathon-plus-700c
>
>They are supposed to be hard to mount, though.

It depends on the rim. Rims with a deep V section inside are easy
since there's somewhere for one side of the bead to go while you lift
the other side over and off. No levers needed.

But rims with a shallow/flat inside can be a real bear. But it's
manageable with cheap plastic tire levers. More work but doable.

I have dug stuff out of Marathon+ tires that would have flatted
anything else. My daily commute includes lots of crushed stone (with
flint mixed in) and other debris. Every now and then I dig the stuff
out of the tire just to see what it picked up.

I can count on 3 years use from a set and that keeps the cost
manageable.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Tosspot]

On 18/06/16 00:50, Bertrand wrote:

<snip>

> I've never used them, but the Schwalbe Marathon Plus seem to be the
> popular tires for very tough conditions, and are available in 25mm:
>
> https://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/schwalbe-marathon-plus-700c
>
> They are supposed to be hard to mount, though.

I'm no roady, but I commuted on them for a while. Puncture rate about
every 500kms. Rolled well, felt responsive[1], and were in no way hard
to mount on normal trekking box section rims. Wear was not up with
Marathon Tours, but again it looked like 2-3,000 kms would be on the
cards I'd still use them today, but for commuting the puncture rate was
unacceptable to me.

[1] I'm a commuter, my idea about rolling resistance and responsiveness
may not match yours!

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/components/thorn-resistant-presta-valve-tube/106025

AAA photography

if thick rubber is on tube bottom then the thinwall thinwalls ?

[Joerg]

On 2016-06-17 18:15, somebody wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 18:50:33 -0400, "Bertrand"
> <bhstempo1ATc...@invalid.com> wrote:
>
> ...
>>
>> I've never used them, but the Schwalbe Marathon Plus seem to be the popular
>> tires for very tough conditions, and are available in 25mm:
>>
>> https://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/schwalbe-marathon-plus-700c
>>
>> They are supposed to be hard to mount, though.
>
> It depends on the rim. Rims with a deep V section inside are easy
> since there's somewhere for one side of the bead to go while you lift
> the other side over and off. No levers needed.
>
> But rims with a shallow/flat inside can be a real bear. But it's
> manageable with cheap plastic tire levers. More work but doable.
>

That's the kind of rim I have and on one fairly expensive lever the tip
broke off when I pried off teh Gatorskin on Tuesday.

> I have dug stuff out of Marathon+ tires that would have flatted
> anything else. My daily commute includes lots of crushed stone (with
> flint mixed in) and other debris. Every now and then I dig the stuff
> out of the tire just to see what it picked up.
>

Thanks, good to know. I don't commute but my weekly fun and errand runs
include similar turf and are quite long, up to 50 miles. Meaning an
unfixable flat such as a side wall blow-out far out there is a real
pain. So far I have dodged Murphy's law and they haven't happened at the
farthest point but I had to walk 5-10 miles.

> I can count on 3 years use from a set and that keeps the cost
> manageable.
>

Depends on the number of miles or kilometer in that time. One reviewer
said 3000 miles which included some offroad, so my kind of riding. That
is a good number.

[Joerg]

On 2016-06-17 23:01, Tosspot wrote:
> On 18/06/16 00:50, Bertrand wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I've never used them, but the Schwalbe Marathon Plus seem to be the
>> popular tires for very tough conditions, and are available in 25mm:
>>
>> https://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/schwalbe-marathon-plus-700c
>>
>> They are supposed to be hard to mount, though.
>
> I'm no roady, but I commuted on them for a while. Puncture rate about
> every 500kms. Rolled well, felt responsive[1], and were in no way hard
> to mount on normal trekking box section rims. Wear was not up with
> Marathon Tours, but again it looked like 2-3,000 kms would be on the
> cards I'd still use them today, but for commuting the puncture rate was
> unacceptable to me.
>

2000km would be unacceptable and a flat every 500km would really be
unacceptable. That's strange, the tire cross section looks better than
Gatorskins. Though I also have thick tubes so maybe that is the reason
why I never had a flat on Gatorskins in many thousand miles except for
side wall blow-outs and on Tuesday a side wall thorn penetration. The
side walls on Gatorskins are way too flimsy for my taste.

> [1] I'm a commuter, my idea about rolling resistance and responsiveness
> may not match yours!
>

True. I also do ride (long ones) where I have to be somewhere ion time
but I still don't care much about rolling resistance or road handling of
a tire. But I do care about service life and even more so flat.

[Roger Merriman]

i used them for a few years then the bike got stolen...

No harder to mount than any other tyre to be honest, I found.

Roger Merriman

[Joerg]

They need to post a cross sectional photo or drawing to see if it is
good. But won't matter anyhow because they do not have oen suited for 25mm.

[Joerg]

Which Conti then? I don't care about handling, I care about flat-free
rides and that requires beefy sidewalls plus sturdy running surface layers.

> yawl doahn know how to mount n dismount tires..
>

So with all your wisdom, please share a better method to get a tight
tire on and off a shallow Mavic Module D rim.

[Joerg]

Depends on the rims. I you have deep rims then just about any tire is
easy to mount. I have helped people fix flats (a surprising number of
road bike riders is quite clumsy at that) and mostly I could get the
tires off sans tools. But with my Mavic Module 3 rims, no dice. Their
cross section is almost square.

[AMuzi]

You're right about that series from Mavic but it's not even
the worst example. 'Square shape' is immaterial; tire
mounting/removal depends on the difference in height between
the bead seat and the center channel inside the rim. You
can't see that from outside. Here are examples:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/WEINRIMS.JPG

Multiple or thick rim liners can have the same effect as
poor rim design. I changed a pair of worn out tires this
week for a guy who said they have always been
excruciatingly difficult. And they were indeed! Under a
thick rubber rim liner were two layers of Velox cotton
liner. With a single Torelli thin liner (the correct thing
for his rim) they mounted with minimal hand pressure in seconds.

The Michelins described all this in their patent a century ago.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

That's what I meant. You can see that when you have the bare rim in hand
and my Mavic rims look worse than model "S" in your link. There hardly
is any height difference, they are almost flat inside.

> Multiple or thick rim liners can have the same effect as poor rim
> design. I changed a pair of worn out tires this week for a guy who said
> they have always been excruciatingly difficult. And they were indeed!
> Under a thick rubber rim liner were two layers of Velox cotton liner.
> With a single Torelli thin liner (the correct thing for his rim) they
> mounted with minimal hand pressure in seconds.
>
> The Michelins described all this in their patent a century ago.
>

I only have a thin yellow plastic liner in there. I am tempted to even
take that out and put down a strip of Kapton tape instead because that's
even thinner.

[Roger Merriman]

fairly shallow section rims I used a number of different tyres M+
gatorskins, mavic ones. all much of a muchness.

The worse I ever had where some DH tyres which did require a fair bit of
effort, the same rims pop on/off easly the XC tyres I now have on the
same rims.

Roger merriman

[James]

On 18/06/16 07:44, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>> While I really like Continental Gatorskins because of their tough

<snip the blah blah blah>

>>
>
> Get solid ones and done with it. Geezzzz....
>

Best answer yet.

--
JS

[Ralph Barone]

I'm also running the Schwalbe Marathon Plus on my touring bike. Perhaps the
best testimonial I can give to these tires is that, while packing for an
upcoming bike tour, I discovered that my spare tube was the wrong size, and
that two tubes of vulcanizing compound had dried up. Punctures have become
a much more theoretical issue to me. Mounting them on my rims (Alex
Adventurer) is a bit more of a challenge, but not a problem if you think,
and don't just try to muscle them on. I also buy the largest tubes I can
fit, on the assumption that the rubber will be under less tension, and thus
less likely to leak when/if it gets punctured.

[retrog...@gmail.com]

I recommend CST Correre road tires. They are very strong, yet inexpensive.

[John B.]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:51:58 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I see a number of You tube films on filling tires with foam that would
seem to solve the problem, permanently. Do it yourself projects so the
cost is essentially just the can of foam.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Tosspot]

On 19/06/16 05:12, Ralph Barone wrote:

<snip>

> I'm also running the Schwalbe Marathon Plus on my touring bike. Perhaps the
> best testimonial I can give to these tires is that, while packing for an
> upcoming bike tour, I discovered that my spare tube was the wrong size, and
> that two tubes of vulcanizing compound had dried up. Punctures have become
> a much more theoretical issue to me. Mounting them on my rims (Alex
> Adventurer) is a bit more of a challenge, but not a problem if you think,
> and don't just try to muscle them on. I also buy the largest tubes I can
> fit, on the assumption that the rubber will be under less tension, and thus
> less likely to leak when/if it gets punctured.

Sounds reasonable, anyone no if it is actually the case?

[Joerg]

The Vredesteins I used in Europe went on and off in seconds. Fixing a
flat on the road was easy, something that is now next to impossible.
However, those tires were no match for the road conditions in
California, flats galore.

> The worse I ever had where some DH tyres which did require a fair bit of
> effort, the same rims pop on/off easly the XC tyres I now have on the
> same rims.
>

I am trying to find DH-style tires for the 29" XC MTB, also for
durability reasons. The latest purchase is a CST Rock Hawk with thicker
side walls. Weighs over 2lbs so that is good news. I haven't mounted it
yet but the MTB has deep rims so tires come on and off in a breeze.

[Joerg]

On 2016-06-18 21:03, retrog...@gmail.com wrote:
> I recommend CST Correre road tires. They are very strong, yet inexpensive.
>

Thanks, Billy, duly noted in my bike wiki file. Interestingly CST is
what I discovered when looking for a 29" MTB tire with better side walls
and out came a CST Rock Hawk. Maybe the Taiwanese will show us how it's
done. Haven't mounted it yet though.

Interestingly Ching Shen owns Maxxis and their 1040N is the cheapest yet
best MTB tire I ever rode. Unfortuantely only available in 26", else I'd
have a stash of a dozen or so in the basement.

Unfortunately they don't make the Correre in 25mm or larger:

http://www.csttires.com/us/bike/road-bike-tires/correre-c1691/

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/19/2016 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> The Vredesteins I used in Europe went on and off in seconds. Fixing a
> flat on the road was easy, something that is now next to impossible.
> However, those tires were no match for the road conditions in
> California, flats galore.

In general, I find kevlar bead tires harder to mount & unmount compared
to tires with steel wire beads. I wonder if that's part of the
explanation for your experiences?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Yes, Kevlar doesn't stretch. I always prefer steel beads and almost all
my tires are steel bead. Except for one MTB tire I used to ride which
didn't come with steel.

If I still had old Betsy here I could pre-stretch the Gatorskins a little:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/splitter.JPG

But I want to get away from Gatorskins anyhow on account of their weak
side walls. So I'll have to minimize rides on rough turf until the last
one is through.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Conti's website plus blogs will get you there...very comprehensive and clearly stated ...response to competition.

search my email or datakoll tire

the subject posts will appear.

appreciate your response. we are sending to many dimes n nickels to the Chinese on bike parts....no good reason sending the Chinese tire money.

NONE

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/19/2016 12:31 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-06-19 08:17, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 6/19/2016 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>> The Vredesteins I used in Europe went on and off in seconds. Fixing a
>>> flat on the road was easy, something that is now next to impossible.
>>> However, those tires were no match for the road conditions in
>>> California, flats galore.
>>
>> In general, I find kevlar bead tires harder to mount & unmount compared
>> to tires with steel wire beads. I wonder if that's part of the
>> explanation for your experiences?
>>
>
> Yes, Kevlar doesn't stretch. I always prefer steel beads and almost all
> my tires are steel bead. Except for one MTB tire I used to ride which
> didn't come with steel.

OK, a technical point for you: Kevlar does stretch, and it stretches
more than steel. (Keep in mind, steel stretches too! Just not much.)

In technical terms, Kevlar's modulus of elasticity (or Young's modulus,
i.e. stiffness) is only about half that of steel. Tire manufacturers can
make up for this by using a thicker Kevlar bead compared to a steel one.
I don't know if they do, I've not yet cut apart a Kevlar bead tire.
But perhaps some of them make up for it by making the bead diameter
slightly smaller for Kevlar tires.

I really can't say for sure. I just know that I've found Kevlar bead
tires a bit more difficult to mount, on average. YMMV.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

cut off a Dimlap SP 44 coupla weeks back. Extinct 1999 ? Nice tire.

steel bead maybe 3/8ths n a wee bit.

SOB. pry n prang.pop popop

[sms]

I wondered about this when looking to buy some tubes for my Dahon with
the Schwalbe Marathon 35-406 (20" x 1.35"). Narrow 20" (406) Schrader
tubes are notoriously hard to find. Finally found some at REI outlet,
<https://www.rei.com/product/101931> and I am assuming that they are 20"
406 and not 20" 440, but at least at REI it's an easy return, and I can
always order some Schwalbe tubes. I had wondered if a 1.5"-2.25" tube
would work or if it would blow the tire off the rim at 100 psi.

As usual, the LBSes close to me had nothing, though one shop about ten
miles away, that I called, did have some Schwalbe tubes for $10 each
(the MSRP on those tubes is $7.25).

[Steve Patriquen]

I tried to mount some Schwalbe G-One tubeless tires on Stan's rims using the correct rubber rim liner. No way - not even with metal tire levers. Switched to rim tape and they went on hard, but not that hard.

Same tires (one size larger) on Mavic rims with their rubber sealing strip? Put them on using just my hands. It's all in the tire/rim match.

You might want to check out Specialized's Armadillo offerings. They run large (a 25mm is almost 28mm) but are a pretty tough tire

[avag...@gmail.com]

NEED A CLEAN RIM inside surface

place rim on lap with tire inside rim on your side

squeeze beads onto rim right n left hand thumb n fingers pushing tire away from you around the rim as beads are pressed on rim flanges

squeeze press squeeze press ..

when the tire wallas are away from you on the farther rim n go no further bead squeezing

then place a lever down the tire a bit from where the bead won't crossover hooking lever onto spoke

silicone abt 12" of bead poss both sides but try the upper first with CRC spray

then place hands back at your side rim n squeeze n push tire around rim again repeat repeat

place another lever in n hook to the closed bead side where bead has crossover.

lever bead into rim with that lever then the next lever...hook...place a 3rd lever where the bead is not in down from the first lever. hook.

hands against belly again n push n squeexe bead around tire to the arther side where the levers are.

place another lever in and lever all levers..

at that point the tire should mount.

IHS

WHERE DOES THE SILICONE COME FROM ?

flag down a passing SUV n ask.

for the troubled there are Si sticks

but water will do

you may also PRELUBE say from BCAE to IS0747

[Joerg]

Thanks, I didn't know that. We learn something every day :-)

[Joerg]

Thanks. However ...

http://mikesbikes.com/product/specialized-all-condition-armadillo-tire-700c-77715-1.htm

Quote "Availability: Out of Stock - Order now to ensure priority" and
"We can only sell this item in our retail stores because this
manufacturer currently prohibits online sales and shipping".

It appears that Specialized should rethink their sales strategies. They
are shooting themselves in the foot with this.

[sms]

Marathon Plus HS 440 goes down to 700x25. They don't talk about sidewall
thickness on the web site. They do say "Anti-aging“ side wall. It now
lasts much longer before developing unsightly cracks when subjected to
use with too low air pressure."

<http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/Marathon_Plus_HS440>

The thorn-resistant tubes seem to all be 4mm/2mm or 3.50mm/1.75mm. But
it isn't clear where the thick section ends. Is it thinner only on the
area contacting the rim, or thinner on the sidewalls too?

[Joerg]

Where?

> search my email or datakoll tire
>
> the subject posts will appear.
>
> appreciate your response. we are sending to many dimes n nickels to
> the Chinese on bike parts....no good reason sending the Chinese tire
> money.
>
> NONE
>

My money goes to whoever provide the best performance for the buck. It
does not matter where they are. For example, the first 29" MTB tire that
really lasted and has at least somewhat ok side walls is from a Thai
company. Next up is a Taiwanese brand that offers thicker side walls. If
others want my tire business they need to provide sturdy side walls.

Similar with other stuff. I am not willing to pay $16/pair for brake
pads that are gone after 500mi. The Chinese ones I have on there now
cost $3/pair and last 800mi.

[Joerg]

I always keep air pressure up and pretty much at the maximum rating of
the respective tire. 110psi on the road bike. 50-55psi on the MTB. One
problem is that goat's head thorns can go in sideways and the other is
that gravel roads chew up the threads in the sidewalls.

> <http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/Marathon_Plus_HS440>
>
> The thorn-resistant tubes seem to all be 4mm/2mm or 3.50mm/1.75mm. But
> it isn't clear where the thick section ends. Is it thinner only on the
> area contacting the rim, or thinner on the sidewalls too?
>

IME most such tubes gradually taper off and when you reach 90 degrees
from the road surface it's the thinner rubber. Yet that is where the
weak side walls of "modern" tires let people down. You can't always see
chunks of goat's head plants (tribulus terrestris) in the road because
they turn brown and are hard to see. Once you see them it's too late,
the thorns go in ever which way ... phsssseeeeoooouuuu.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Trte_003_lhp.jpg

It used to be only prevalent in places like Arizona but this plant has
invaded Claifornia more than five years ago, big time.

[Joerg]

Should but doesn't always. Gatorskins on flat Mavic rims need painful
pressure on the last 10" of bead no matter how much you soap up the
bead. Now the knuckle joints will stop hurting after a day or so but the
big question is:

How do you get the tire off? This is where people including myself have
broken quality tire levers.

[...]

[sms]

On 6/20/2016 6:47 AM, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> Quote "Availability: Out of Stock - Order now to ensure priority" and
> "We can only sell this item in our retail stores because this
> manufacturer currently prohibits online sales and shipping".
>
> It appears that Specialized should rethink their sales strategies. They
> are shooting themselves in the foot with this.

True. Specialized is hurting not only themselves, but the LBS that is
savvy enough to do both online sales and in-store sales.

Finding items in-stock at an LBS is so difficult and time-consuming that
many cyclists don't even bother to try. Plus you have to deal with
banker's hours (or worse) at so many shops.

As long as an LBS is a Specialized dealer, and as long as they are
adhering to any MAP policy, what's the difference if they ship a tire?
They aren't shipping complete bicycles.

The shop I used to buy stuff at is now so tied to Trek that not only do
they sell only Trek bicycles, but nearly all the accessories and parts
they sell are also a Trek brand, except when Trek doesn't have an
offering. It's become useless.

Sadly, my wholesale QBP connection has graduated from college and no
longer can order stuff for me through the campus bike co-op. That was
quite a deal, though many of the items were not much more on Amazon.

[Joerg]

On 2016-06-20 08:36, sms wrote:
> On 6/20/2016 6:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Quote "Availability: Out of Stock - Order now to ensure priority" and
>> "We can only sell this item in our retail stores because this
>> manufacturer currently prohibits online sales and shipping".
>>
>> It appears that Specialized should rethink their sales strategies. They
>> are shooting themselves in the foot with this.
>
> True. Specialized is hurting not only themselves, but the LBS that is
> savvy enough to do both online sales and in-store sales.
>
> Finding items in-stock at an LBS is so difficult and time-consuming that
> many cyclists don't even bother to try. Plus you have to deal with
> banker's hours (or worse) at so many shops.
>

<raises_hand>

I am one of those cyclists. The only item I bought in a bike shop over
the last 12 months was a small patch kit. Because I had helped out some
others and the cement dried up (wish they'd sell that separately).

> As long as an LBS is a Specialized dealer, and as long as they are
> adhering to any MAP policy, what's the difference if they ship a tire?
> They aren't shipping complete bicycles.
>

Well, this creates jobs. In Asia.

> The shop I used to buy stuff at is now so tied to Trek that not only do
> they sell only Trek bicycles, but nearly all the accessories and parts
> they sell are also a Trek brand, except when Trek doesn't have an
> offering. It's become useless.
>
> Sadly, my wholesale QBP connection has graduated from college and no
> longer can order stuff for me through the campus bike co-op. That was
> quite a deal, though many of the items were not much more on Amazon.
>

My usual sources are Amazon, Pricepoint, Nashbar and Jenson. Pretty much
in that order because yes, Amazon is often cheapest.

Price becomes more and more important because some stuff just ain't as
good anymore. Such as cassettes. Both the cassettes on my MTB as well as
the road bike started skipping in frequently used gears after 1000mi or
so. Despite me never letting a chain go past 0.8% stretch. I find that
pathetic. That was much better in the 80's.