Rubber cement question

[Joerg]

We all know that the stuff in those tiny rubber cement tubes dries out
over time, sometimes even when unopened. So after advice here in the
group I bought a large can a while ago.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZPISh9s3L.jpg

Works well. Question: Is there some sort of cheap/free micro container
that could be used to fill some into and carry along? Something where it
lasts a longer time than the tiny tubes but where it's ok that the goop
in this little container is for use at one event only.

Reason is that I sometimes help other riders and then the tube will dry
out in no time. Or is already questionable during the patch job on the road.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Mark J.]

On 6/19/2017 12:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
> We all know that the stuff in those tiny rubber cement tubes dries out
> over time, sometimes even when unopened. So after advice here in the
> group I bought a large can a while ago.
>
> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZPISh9s3L.jpg
>
> Works well.

So did my can (Rema brand in my case) when I bought it years ago. For a
while. Then the can dried out, even though tightly screwed shut (with a
channel-lock, as I recall).

Since then I've bought the tiny tubes in cheapo patch kits at the local
department store. True, even the unopened ones /can/ be dry, but
generally they last longer when unopened. I save up punctured inner
tubes until I have 6-8, then open a tube of glue & patch 'em all while
the glue is fresh.

Maybe if you put some sort of grease/sealant on the can threads, it will
last longer. Good luck.

Question: Is there some sort of cheap/free micro container
> that could be used to fill some into and carry along?

Good question. I'd suggest crimped metal tubes.

Mark J.

[Joerg]

On 2017-06-19 16:31, Mark J. wrote:
> On 6/19/2017 12:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> We all know that the stuff in those tiny rubber cement tubes dries out
>> over time, sometimes even when unopened. So after advice here in the
>> group I bought a large can a while ago.
>>
>> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZPISh9s3L.jpg
>>
>> Works well.
>
> So did my can (Rema brand in my case) when I bought it years ago. For a
> while. Then the can dried out, even though tightly screwed shut (with a
> channel-lock, as I recall).
>
> Since then I've bought the tiny tubes in cheapo patch kits at the local
> department store. True, even the unopened ones /can/ be dry, but
> generally they last longer when unopened. I save up punctured inner
> tubes until I have 6-8, then open a tube of glue & patch 'em all while
> the glue is fresh.
>
> Maybe if you put some sort of grease/sealant on the can threads, it will
> last longer. Good luck.
>

What also helps is what we do with paint cans, turning them upside down
for a while and then back upright. We have used paint that we bought
more than a decade ago and it was still good enough.

> Question: Is there some sort of cheap/free micro container
>> that could be used to fill some into and carry along?
>
> Good question. I'd suggest crimped metal tubes.
>

If they seal enough that could work, provided the forces needed to
uncrimp them in the field are reasonable. Not a problem if a rock is
required, I use rocks a lot as makeshift hammers.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 12:47:56 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>Question: Is there some sort of cheap/free micro container
>that could be used to fill some into and carry along? Something where it
>lasts a longer time than the tiny tubes but where it's ok that the goop
>in this little container is for use at one event only.

Aluminum pill bottles perhaps?
<https://www.google.com/search?q=aluminum+pill+bottles&tbm=isch>
I have a similar problem with Nitrostat pill evaporating into
uselessness. I drilled one and inserted a tire stem and valve. It
holds pressure quite nicely. The idea is to pressurize the pill
bottle to something higher than the vapor pressure for nitroglycerin
so that it will not voltatize. I suspect the same can be done for
rubber cement by pressuring with something that is not very reactive,
such as CO2, N2, or perhaps propane. Some kind of anti-sieze or
grease might be needed to keep the threads from being glued in place.
The bottle I have here has only 3 threads and is rather loose, but has
a nice o-ring to seal the cap.

Disclaimer: I haven't tried this with rubber cement.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Radey Shouman]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:

> On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 12:47:56 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Question: Is there some sort of cheap/free micro container
>>that could be used to fill some into and carry along? Something where it
>>lasts a longer time than the tiny tubes but where it's ok that the goop
>>in this little container is for use at one event only.
>
> Aluminum pill bottles perhaps?
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=aluminum+pill+bottles&tbm=isch>
> I have a similar problem with Nitrostat pill evaporating into
> uselessness. I drilled one and inserted a tire stem and valve. It
> holds pressure quite nicely. The idea is to pressurize the pill
> bottle to something higher than the vapor pressure for nitroglycerin
> so that it will not voltatize.

That does not work. Not even a little bit. The equilibrium partial
pressure of nitroglycerine (or anything) in the vapor space of the
bottle is, to a very good approximation, independent of the total
pressure of any inert gas. It does depend on temperature and on the
mole fraction of nitroglycerine in any liquid solution it might be a
part of.

What does work is to seal the bottle, so that nitroglycerine cannot
escape, and to minimize the size of the vapor space, so that the total
amount vaporized is small. Pressurizing with nitroglycerine would work,
but there are practical problems.

[avag...@gmail.com]

On decanting the solvent escapes

https://m.lowes.com/pd/DAP-Weldwood-Contact-Cement/3006177

When immediately closing cover, the brush passing thru a hole in the grocery bag thread gasket you f ashioned, twist ap on snug over the gasket

Store in cool area.

Weldwood lasts, tubes donot

[David Scheidt]

Mark J. <MarkU...@comcast.net> wrote:

:On 6/19/2017 12:47 PM, Joerg wrote:
:> We all know that the stuff in those tiny rubber cement tubes dries out
:> over time, sometimes even when unopened. So after advice here in the
:> group I bought a large can a while ago.
:>
:> https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZPISh9s3L.jpg
:>
:> Works well.

:So did my can (Rema brand in my case) when I bought it years ago. For a
:while. Then the can dried out, even though tightly screwed shut (with a
:channel-lock, as I recall).

The bottle in my file cabinet at work has lasted at least five years,
probably six. I simply put the lid on when I'm not using it. It's an
american brand, purchased at an auto parts store. Maybe americans
understand bottle sealing better than the germans.

In the case of the little tubes, the problem is not always that the
solvent has evaporated. The contents of tube can vulcanize itself
into a hard mass, even in the presence of solvent. That's
particularly likely where it's hot, and the vulcanizing fluid is kept
somehwerer ike a seat wedge, where it's well heated.

--
sig 78

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 21:45:49 -0400, Radey Shouman
<sho...@comcast.net> wrote:

5AM. Can't sleep (mouse in house). Might as well go online.

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 12:47:56 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Question: Is there some sort of cheap/free micro container
>>>that could be used to fill some into and carry along? Something where it
>>>lasts a longer time than the tiny tubes but where it's ok that the goop
>>>in this little container is for use at one event only.
>>
>> Aluminum pill bottles perhaps?
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=aluminum+pill+bottles&tbm=isch>
>> I have a similar problem with Nitrostat pill evaporating into
>> uselessness. I drilled one and inserted a tire stem and valve. It
>> holds pressure quite nicely. The idea is to pressurize the pill
>> bottle to something higher than the vapor pressure for nitroglycerin
>> so that it will not voltatize.

>That does not work. Not even a little bit. The equilibrium partial
>pressure of nitroglycerine (or anything) in the vapor space of the
>bottle is, to a very good approximation, independent of the total
>pressure of any inert gas. It does depend on temperature and on the
>mole fraction of nitroglycerine in any liquid solution it might be a
>part of.

Thanks. I was afraid that it might not work, which is why I added the
disclaimer. If you're right, which is likely the case, then you saved
me from a wasted experiment. However, you gave me an idea. Can I
reduce the air space volume by filling it with an inert liquid to
reduce evaporation? For nitrostat pills, I have no idea what might
work. For rubber cement, I would guess(tm) that water might work if
the solvents used (acetone, hexane, heptane or toluene) are immiscible
in water. Acetone fails, but the others might be possible.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_water-miscible_solvents>

>What does work is to seal the bottle, so that nitroglycerine cannot
>escape, and to minimize the size of the vapor space, so that the total
>amount vaporized is small. Pressurizing with nitroglycerine would work,
>but there are practical problems.

Some kind of flexible membrane between the pills or rubber cement and
the air space might work. Increasing the air pressure in the air
space between the pills or rubber cement above atmospheric should
minimize the volume, keep everything in place, and compensate for
minor changes in the volume of the contents. A butyl, silicone, or
neoprene rubber bladder would be my first guess. One possible glitch
is that opening the bottle might eject the contents, but that could be
useful for applying the rubber cement (but rather sloppy for
dispensing pills).

>> I suspect the same can be done for
>> rubber cement by pressuring with something that is not very reactive,
>> such as CO2, N2, or perhaps propane. Some kind of anti-sieze or
>> grease might be needed to keep the threads from being glued in place.
>> The bottle I have here has only 3 threads and is rather loose, but has
>> a nice o-ring to seal the cap.
>>
>> Disclaimer: I haven't tried this with rubber cement.

I still think aluminum pill bottles have their possibilities for
storing small quantities of rubber cement. Another might be empty gel
pill capsules such as these:
<https://www.capsuline.com/empty-capsule-size-chart/>
These are easy enough to load with powders, but rubber cement might be
a challenge. Some kind of syringe affair might work, but could be
rather messy. To prevent evaporation along the seal line, some kind
of lacquer or varnish dip might work. Probably too much work, so
maybe just some glass vials:
<https://www.premiumvials.com/clear-vials/>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 02:12:04 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:

>In the case of the little tubes, the problem is not always that the
>solvent has evaporated. The contents of tube can vulcanize itself
>into a hard mass, even in the presence of solvent. That's
>particularly likely where it's hot, and the vulcanizing fluid is kept

>somehwerer like a seat wedge, where it's well heated.

I keep both automobile and bicycle tire patch kits in my car. It gets
rather warm in the car at times. Both kits include those little tubes
of rubber cement. At best, they last a few months. I tore apart one
that was in my rather hot car for over one year. It was almost
completely empty with only a tiny rubber-like blob at the bottom of
the tube. It had never been opened and was not punctured or leaking.
At first, I thought it might be defective from the factory, but then I
found another tube with the same problem. I've gone no further with
this investigation. If it's heat that's causing the cement to harden,
then storing it in a car or riding around with it on a bicycle, are
not going to work.

Except for it being banned in California for using MEK and toluene as
the solvent, I wonder if this stuff might work better?
<https://www.ellsworth.com/products/by-manufacturer/3m/adhesives/solvent-based/3m-scotch-weld-1300-neoprene-rubber-and-gasket-adhesive-yellow-5-oz-tube/>
Bicycle tires are mostly butyl rubber.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 5:58:34 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 02:12:04 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
> <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> >In the case of the little tubes, the problem is not always that the
> >solvent has evaporated. The contents of tube can vulcanize itself
> >into a hard mass, even in the presence of solvent. That's
> >particularly likely where it's hot, and the vulcanizing fluid is kept
> >somehwerer like a seat wedge, where it's well heated.
>
> I keep both automobile and bicycle tire patch kits in my car. It gets
> rather warm in the car at times. Both kits include those little tubes
> of rubber cement. At best, they last a few months. I tore apart one
> that was in my rather hot car for over one year. It was almost
> completely empty with only a tiny rubber-like blob at the bottom of
> the tube. It had never been opened and was not punctured or leaking.
> At first, I thought it might be defective from the factory, but then I
> found another tube with the same problem. I've gone no further with
> this investigation. If it's heat that's causing the cement to harden,
> then storing it in a car or riding around with it on a bicycle, are
> not going to work.
>
> Except for it being banned in California for using MEK and toluene as
> the solvent, I wonder if this stuff might work better?
> <https://www.ellsworth.com/products/by-manufacturer/3m/adhesives/solvent-based/3m-scotch-weld-1300-neoprene-rubber-and-gasket-adhesive-yellow-5-oz-tube/>
> Bicycle tires are mostly butyl rubber.

What ever the solvent is, that is the carrier, doesn't "dry up". Eventually it leaks out through the crimped end of the tube. I haven't had a problem with glass bottles though I would imagine in enough heat the solvent could gasify enough to leak out of just about everything. Just how good is the cap seal?

The larger the tube usually the smaller the ratio of solvent and the longer it will last.

I ordered an entire load of patch kits from ProPatch a couple of years ago to sell cheaply to the group I ride with. No one bought one kit at a buck. The patch kits are small. So far they do not appear to dry up meaning that the crimped section of tube is managed in such a manner that it doesn't leak. Once opened the glue appears to dry up as rapidly as any other Rema glue.

Also there is the consideration that glueless patches do exist but I've only used them enough to gain confidence that they indeed do work though you have to be very careful in the tube preparation.

[avag...@gmail.com]

AE6KS

during a prior discussion was proven as wriiiten here ...the small tube eg Bell Walmart sets up inside the tube.

Weldwood does not set up inside the small bottle. Add gasket..AAA

gasketing tubes involves clean threads. the tube is rolled up correctly from bottom as pressed there for extruding contents...from the beginning. stupid.no slop.

so...for the 7th time ... squeeze tube bottom extruding dome of contents above nozzle....cap with gasket ...continue very slowly pressuring tube bottom...twist cap on over gasket.

result is no air and sealed tube.

no reason to thrash around abt this. this is SOP.

REI sells small bottles for backpacking food or med use.

there air evacuating equipped bottles for lab work but there's a pump ....

if you are self plaged by myriad glue problems go into NAPA n buy a small can of NAPA rubber cement. High solvent content for 'shop' conditions. store in basement or root cellar....gasketed... protecting roots.

[avag...@gmail.com]

over the Coast Range n across the Grand Desierto

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipPZWhT2wb4xp70wwr0O9JPK4choOuDX1P0ZvYHb

if the photo link doesn't work please advise.

[Frank Krygowski]

I wondered about that, and whether some more enthusiastic crimping would
help, using a bench vise.

But to me the problem seems small. Patch kits are cheap.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

As I said, I did investigate and use glueless patches and carefully used they do work. Since there is no solvent to dry up I assume they last a long time in a seat pack.

Using the glueless patch I did not inflate the tube outside of the tire to check for additional holes. I installed the tube and inflated it inside the tire so that the pressure of the tube against the tire aided in any additional pressure required to assure a good seal.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 06:32:42 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:

>https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipPZWhT2wb4xp70wwr0O9JPK4choOuDX1P0ZvYHb
>if the photo link doesn't work please advise.

Google
404. That’s an error.
The requested URL was not found on this server. That’s all we know.

You've been advised.

[David Scheidt]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

When the tubes were made of lead foil, it might have. They're now
some sort of laminated plastic material that's closed by
(heat|ultrasonic) welding.

:But to me the problem seems small. Patch kits are cheap.

they're cheap, but when you need one, it would be nice if the one in
your bag worked.

--
sig 118

[avag...@gmail.com]

the SHARE control isn't up front

thanks

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://goo.gl/photos/CeE92RSjNNu72zSP9

[Joerg]

On 2017-06-19 18:17, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 12:47:56 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Question: Is there some sort of cheap/free micro container
>> that could be used to fill some into and carry along? Something where it
>> lasts a longer time than the tiny tubes but where it's ok that the goop
>> in this little container is for use at one event only.
>
> Aluminum pill bottles perhaps?
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=aluminum+pill+bottles&tbm=isch>
> I have a similar problem with Nitrostat pill evaporating into
> uselessness. I drilled one and inserted a tire stem and valve. It
> holds pressure quite nicely. The idea is to pressurize the pill
> bottle to something higher than the vapor pressure for nitroglycerin
> so that it will not voltatize. I suspect the same can be done for
> rubber cement by pressuring with something that is not very reactive,
> such as CO2, N2, or perhaps propane. Some kind of anti-sieze or
> grease might be needed to keep the threads from being glued in place.
> The bottle I have here has only 3 threads and is rather loose, but has
> a nice o-ring to seal the cap.
>
> Disclaimer: I haven't tried this with rubber cement.
>

Good idea. It looks like they have an o-ring to seal. I could try to
fill one to the brim. From beer brewing I'd theoretically have access to
the CO2 that escapes the fermenter but pressurizing with that would be a
challenge. I'd have to suck the CO2 into an old bicycle pump and then
somehow fill that in.

[Joerg]

Heat is probably the biggest issue. The smaller size panniers I have on
the road bike and the MTB only come in black and I usually start my
longer rides shortly before lunch time, meaning in the glistening sun.
At some point everything in the panniers bakes no matter how well insulated.

[Joerg]

One lone buck and they didn't buy? They must all be cheapskates. Where
do you get such cheap patch kits? The ones out here are around $3 and do
not last long (well, the cement doesn't).

> Also there is the consideration that glueless patches do exist but
> I've only used them enough to gain confidence that they indeed do
> work though you have to be very careful in the tube preparation.
>

Most riders told me that glueless patches are meant to get you home, not
as a permanent fix.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Since I have Rema (Made in USA) and ProPatch (Made in Taiwan) right here I looked at them. Both tubes are metal. One difference is that the Rema has a number of some sort (perhaps a batch no.) stamped into the fold which could possibly interfere with the seal.

But as a rule I have only had Rema go dead on me and then only after a very long time. But both dry up fairly rapidly after puncturing the seal and using them just once.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I bought a case of 200 so they only cost me $0.50 apiece.

If you carefully sand the area around the puncture, place the glueless patch, put the tube in the tire and fill it to pressure when you get home and try to remove the patch it's as solid as any normal patch.

What I saw was people trying to stick a glueless patch on unprepared tubes and then complaining that they were junk when they tried to fill the tube.

[Joerg]

What brand and where did you buy?

> If you carefully sand the area around the puncture, place the
> glueless patch, put the tube in the tire and fill it to pressure when
> you get home and try to remove the patch it's as solid as any normal
> patch.
>
> What I saw was people trying to stick a glueless patch on unprepared
> tubes and then complaining that they were junk when they tried to
> fill the tube.
>

Ok, but the normal process requires vulcanizing the sanded tube portion.
This is done by applying the cement and then letting it dry. The folks
who wrote the instructions for Slime 1050 seem to have forgotten (!)
that important part of letting things dry. How is that going to work
with a glueless patch?

[Sir Ridesalot]

That's precisely why I check my tube of glue BEFORE I go on a longer ride. It's part of my Pre-Ride checklist. I'd rather discover a problem here at home than many many kilometers out on a ride whether the problem be repair equipment or something on the bicycle.

Cheers

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

SR's glue check...

Opening tube shortens tube life

Try comparing

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 12:53:44 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2017-06-19 18:17, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 12:47:56 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Question: Is there some sort of cheap/free micro container
>>> that could be used to fill some into and carry along? Something where it
>>> lasts a longer time than the tiny tubes but where it's ok that the goop
>>> in this little container is for use at one event only.
>>
>> Aluminum pill bottles perhaps?
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=aluminum+pill+bottles&tbm=isch>
>> I have a similar problem with Nitrostat pill evaporating into
>> uselessness. I drilled one and inserted a tire stem and valve. It
>> holds pressure quite nicely. The idea is to pressurize the pill
>> bottle to something higher than the vapor pressure for nitroglycerin
>> so that it will not voltatize. I suspect the same can be done for
>> rubber cement by pressuring with something that is not very reactive,
>> such as CO2, N2, or perhaps propane. Some kind of anti-sieze or
>> grease might be needed to keep the threads from being glued in place.
>> The bottle I have here has only 3 threads and is rather loose, but has
>> a nice o-ring to seal the cap.
>>
>> Disclaimer: I haven't tried this with rubber cement.

>Good idea.

Not so good idea. See message by Radey Shouman for why gas
pressurizing won't reduce evaporation.

>It looks like they have an o-ring to seal. I could try to
>fill one to the brim. From beer brewing I'd theoretically have access to
>the CO2 that escapes the fermenter but pressurizing with that would be a
>challenge. I'd have to suck the CO2 into an old bicycle pump and then
>somehow fill that in.

That should work, but instead of a small volume, high pressure bicycle
pump, perhaps a large volume, low pressure air mattress or inflatable
toy hand pumb might be better.

I still think the pill bottles will work, or maybe a glass vial.
However, some other scheme for reducing or eliminating the air space
under the cap will need to be contrived. Right now (5AM), I'm
thinking of a PTFE plug and a spring under the cap end of the pill
bottle.

[David Scheidt]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
:On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 02:12:04 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt

:<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:

:>In the case of the little tubes, the problem is not always that the
:>solvent has evaporated. The contents of tube can vulcanize itself
:>into a hard mass, even in the presence of solvent. That's
:>particularly likely where it's hot, and the vulcanizing fluid is kept
:>somehwerer like a seat wedge, where it's well heated.

:I keep both automobile and bicycle tire patch kits in my car. It gets
:rather warm in the car at times. Both kits include those little tubes
:of rubber cement. At best, they last a few months. I tore apart one
:that was in my rather hot car for over one year. It was almost
:completely empty with only a tiny rubber-like blob at the bottom of
:the tube. It had never been opened and was not punctured or leaking.
:At first, I thought it might be defective from the factory, but then I
:found another tube with the same problem. I've gone no further with
:this investigation. If it's heat that's causing the cement to harden,
:then storing it in a car or riding around with it on a bicycle, are
:not going to work.

It occurs to me that it might be getting hot enough to boil the
solvent. That would increase the pressure in the tube, and ight be
enough to force open a seal. The increased vapor pressure of less
than boiling might be able to do the same thing. That would explain
why people like me and Frank, who live in more temperate climates
don't have the problem much.

:Except for it being banned in California for using MEK and toluene as

:the solvent, I wonder if this stuff might work better?
:<https://www.ellsworth.com/products/by-manufacturer/3m/adhesives/solvent-based/3m-scotch-weld-1300-neoprene-rubber-and-gasket-adhesive-yellow-5-oz-tube/>
:Bicycle tires are mostly butyl rubber.

IT would work, but not as well as vulcanizing fluid. The tube contact
portion of the patch is made of unvulcanized rubber, with a zinc
ultra-accelerator mixed in. The vulcanizing fluid contains an
accelerator that acts as a an activator for the ultra-acclerator.
Without that, you just have glue. the tube-patch interface is subject
ot lots of force, and glues have a hard time with it.


--
sig 102

[Ned Mantei]

On 21-06-17 03:26, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> That's precisely why I check my tube of glue BEFORE I go on a longer ride. It's part of my Pre-Ride checklist. I'd rather discover a problem here at home than many many kilometers out on a ride whether the problem be repair equipment or something on the bicycle.

I carry a spare (inner) tube as well as a patch kit. If it's just one
flat then I change the tube and patch at leisure when I'm back home.
Also good in the case of a flat that destroys the tube such as I had
years ago (https://flic.kr/p/9XmmWn ), although I'm pretty sure I now
know how to avoid such a thing by braking more carefully.

Ned

[Joerg]

If the micro-pill-bottle had a milled lid that would protrude into the
rubber cement when filled to the brim there should be rubber cement
oozing out during the closing process. That ought to drive out any air
inside. Or at least almost all of it.

It would be ok to have to refill this every three months or so. As
someone wrote, li'l rubber cement tubes are cheap enough but you can't
buy 20 of them, put them on a shelf, grab one every three month and
expect them to still be ok after the summer. Because often they aren't.

Maybe one could buy 20 rubber cement tubes, store them in the freezer
and then take a fresh one every few months?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/21/2017 9:09 AM, Ned Mantei wrote:
> On 21-06-17 03:26, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> That's precisely why I check my tube of glue BEFORE I go on a longer
>> ride. It's part of my Pre-Ride checklist. I'd rather discover a
>> problem here at home than many many kilometers out on a ride whether
>> the problem be repair equipment or something on the bicycle.
>
> I carry a spare (inner) tube as well as a patch kit. If it's just one
> flat then I change the tube and patch at leisure when I'm back home.

That's my strategy as well. To get in the trouble people are worried
about, I'd first need to have two flats on a ride. Then I'd have to
have a dry tube of cement. Then I'd have to have nobody riding with me
who has either a suitable tube or good cement or a glueless patch.

It's not impossible, I suppose. But it's never happened to me in 40
years of avid riding.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 07:19:22 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>It would be ok to have to refill this every three months or so. As
>someone wrote, li'l rubber cement tubes are cheap enough but you can't
>buy 20 of them, put them on a shelf, grab one every three month and
>expect them to still be ok after the summer. Because often they aren't.
>
>Maybe one could buy 20 rubber cement tubes, store them in the freezer
>and then take a fresh one every few months?

Got a hot wire heat seal machine (Seal-a-Meal)? Find a small diameter
vinyl or plastic tube, about the size of a soda straw. Take about one
foot length and pressure fill it with rubber cement. Using the hot
wire sealer, seal and cut off sections about 1" long. Same as the
little packets of lube or thermal grease that are often included with
some products. Like this:
<https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/45NA53_AS01>
Or, it can be some other shape. Cut off a corner, squeeze, and serve.
One nice feature is that unlike the pill bottle, you can tell with the
tube if the glue has hardened.

[Joerg]

On 2017-06-21 10:14, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 07:19:22 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It would be ok to have to refill this every three months or so. As
>> someone wrote, li'l rubber cement tubes are cheap enough but you can't
>> buy 20 of them, put them on a shelf, grab one every three month and
>> expect them to still be ok after the summer. Because often they aren't.
>>
>> Maybe one could buy 20 rubber cement tubes, store them in the freezer
>> and then take a fresh one every few months?
>
> Got a hot wire heat seal machine (Seal-a-Meal)? Find a small diameter
> vinyl or plastic tube, about the size of a soda straw. Take about one
> foot length and pressure fill it with rubber cement. Using the hot
> wire sealer, seal and cut off sections about 1" long. Same as the
> little packets of lube or thermal grease that are often included with
> some products. Like this:
> <https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/45NA53_AS01>
> Or, it can be some other shape. Cut off a corner, squeeze, and serve.
> One nice feature is that unlike the pill bottle, you can tell with the
> tube if the glue has hardened.
>

I don't have such machines. Why does nobody offer patch kits with 2-3 of
these in there? Or ideally with as many as there are patches because
normally only one patch is needed per event.

[Doug Landau]

Didn't we already solve this a few months ago?
- Get 20 little tubes of cement
- Get a can of cement
- dip each little tube in the can
- treat them like eggshells after that
- tuck them, as gently as humanly possible, into a corner of your underseat bag where no pressure will be put on them by anything
- learn to distinguish the feeling in the palm of your hand, a full/coated tube from an empty/coated tube, just in case the coating didn't work and the shit evaporated
- pull the tube out every 30 days and feel it, just in case

What is the problem?

[Joerg]

That is a good idea. I do not remember this suggestion but maybe it was
a thread I didn't read or participate in. Or maybe a "senior moment" :-)

[Radey Shouman]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:

> On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 21:45:49 -0400, Radey Shouman
> <sho...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> 5AM. Can't sleep (mouse in house). Might as well go online.

>
>>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 12:47:56 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Question: Is there some sort of cheap/free micro container
>>>>that could be used to fill some into and carry along? Something where it
>>>>lasts a longer time than the tiny tubes but where it's ok that the goop
>>>>in this little container is for use at one event only.
>>>
>>> Aluminum pill bottles perhaps?
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=aluminum+pill+bottles&tbm=isch>
>>> I have a similar problem with Nitrostat pill evaporating into
>>> uselessness. I drilled one and inserted a tire stem and valve. It
>>> holds pressure quite nicely. The idea is to pressurize the pill
>>> bottle to something higher than the vapor pressure for nitroglycerin
>>> so that it will not voltatize.
>

>>That does not work. Not even a little bit. The equilibrium partial
>>pressure of nitroglycerine (or anything) in the vapor space of the
>>bottle is, to a very good approximation, independent of the total
>>pressure of any inert gas. It does depend on temperature and on the
>>mole fraction of nitroglycerine in any liquid solution it might be a
>>part of.
>
> Thanks. I was afraid that it might not work, which is why I added the
> disclaimer. If you're right, which is likely the case, then you saved
> me from a wasted experiment. However, you gave me an idea. Can I
> reduce the air space volume by filling it with an inert liquid to
> reduce evaporation? For nitrostat pills, I have no idea what might
> work. For rubber cement, I would guess(tm) that water might work if
> the solvents used (acetone, hexane, heptane or toluene) are immiscible
> in water. Acetone fails, but the others might be possible.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_water-miscible_solvents>

If most vapor is lost by opening and closing the container, then yes,
minimizing air space by filling it with a liquid in which the vapor
is insoluble ought to work. No idea on practicalities.

On the other hand, if the main route of escape is diffusion through
pores in the container, then reducing the air volume does not
neccesarily help. Reducing the area of any porous wall would help.

>>What does work is to seal the bottle, so that nitroglycerine cannot
>>escape, and to minimize the size of the vapor space, so that the total
>>amount vaporized is small. Pressurizing with nitroglycerine would work,
>>but there are practical problems.
>
> Some kind of flexible membrane between the pills or rubber cement and
> the air space might work. Increasing the air pressure in the air
> space between the pills or rubber cement above atmospheric should
> minimize the volume, keep everything in place, and compensate for
> minor changes in the volume of the contents. A butyl, silicone, or
> neoprene rubber bladder would be my first guess. One possible glitch
> is that opening the bottle might eject the contents, but that could be
> useful for applying the rubber cement (but rather sloppy for
> dispensing pills).

Maybe. I wonder how quickly nitroglycerine diffuses through rubber?
Just keeping a buttload of pills, instead of one or two, in a small
container ought to help, but might run into prescription and other
practical issues.

>>> I suspect the same can be done for
>>> rubber cement by pressuring with something that is not very reactive,
>>> such as CO2, N2, or perhaps propane. Some kind of anti-sieze or
>>> grease might be needed to keep the threads from being glued in place.
>>> The bottle I have here has only 3 threads and is rather loose, but has
>>> a nice o-ring to seal the cap.
>>>
>>> Disclaimer: I haven't tried this with rubber cement.
>

> I still think aluminum pill bottles have their possibilities for
> storing small quantities of rubber cement. Another might be empty gel
> pill capsules such as these:
> <https://www.capsuline.com/empty-capsule-size-chart/>
> These are easy enough to load with powders, but rubber cement might be
> a challenge. Some kind of syringe affair might work, but could be
> rather messy. To prevent evaporation along the seal line, some kind
> of lacquer or varnish dip might work. Probably too much work, so
> maybe just some glass vials:
> <https://www.premiumvials.com/clear-vials/>

Aluminum pill bottles might work, but it would be a pain to extract the
fluid. Same for glass vials. Either ought to work if they have good
seals and are the right size.

I wonder whether gel capsules would dissolve in vulcanizing
fluid.

Personally I have stored two (4 oz?) Rema tubes of vulcanizing fluid for
years with no trouble. They spend most of their time in a cool cellar,
which might be the secret.

--

[Joerg]

In my cases it was other riders. On singletrack I have crammed my spare
29" tube into someone's 26" tire and he made it home. Well, almost,
because 5mi before arriving ... phhsssss ... the front went flat. On the
road bike it's different. Once I donated my spare tube to a rider who
had 1-1/2" tires while my tube maxed at 25mm. We pumped it up anyhow,
hoping it would hang on ... *POOF*

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 1:28:06 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>
> What brand and where did you buy?

It says ProPatch on the label. It's been too long to remember more.

> Ok, but the normal process requires vulcanizing the sanded tube portion.
> This is done by applying the cement and then letting it dry. The folks
> who wrote the instructions for Slime 1050 seem to have forgotten (!)
> that important part of letting things dry. How is that going to work
> with a glueless patch?

Whatever gives you the idea that you are "vulcanizing" anything with glue? All that means is that you are adding sulfur to natural rubber.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 11:43:55 AM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>
> If most vapor is lost by opening and closing the container, then yes,
> minimizing air space by filling it with a liquid in which the vapor
> is insoluble ought to work. No idea on practicalities.
>
> On the other hand, if the main route of escape is diffusion through
> pores in the container, then reducing the air volume does not
> neccesarily help. Reducing the area of any porous wall would help.

I'm pretty sure that diffusion is what the problem is. The solvent is VERY light such as acetone or even lighter.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 12:24:07 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:

>It occurs to me that it might be getting hot enough to boil the
>solvent. That would increase the pressure in the tube, and ight be
>enough to force open a seal.

Yep, that's possible. Googling for numbers:
acetone: 56.0C (133F)
hexane: 68.0C (154F)
heptane: 98.4C (209F)
toluene: 110.6C (231F)
Boiling off the acetone might be possible, but the others are rather
beyond what I would expect to find in a vehicle with the tube of
rubber cement that is not in direct sunlight. There's also a water
based formulation stabilized with ammonia which I can't seem to find
any formulations. I've smelled quite a bit of rubber cement and have
never smelled ammonia, so I suspect it's rather rare.

As for forcing open a seal, I don't think so, unless the manufacturer
intentionally installed an over pressure vent, such as in an alkaline
battery. Before the seal on the tube blows, I would expect that the
tube would inflate into a gas bag, much like a LiIon batteries does
when almost dead and too rapidly charged. Like this:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+ion+battery+bulge&tbm=isch>
I haven't seen or heard of that for rubber cement tubes. Therefore,
overheating is probably not increasing the internal pressure.

>The increased vapor pressure of less
>than boiling might be able to do the same thing. That would explain
>why people like me and Frank, who live in more temperate climates
>don't have the problem much.

I think you're right about the temperature effect, but the mechanism
is still a mystery. Finding several non-bulging tubes of rubber
cement tire patch that were empty except a small blob of hard rubber
at the bottom (rolled end) of the tube adds to the mystery. One thing
for sure... the empty tube was in a rather warm environment in my car.

It would be ineresting to see what could be done to cool down the
rubber cement. Diabetics have that problem keeping their insulin
within temperature limits. There are various insulated "bags" where
one applies a small ice pack to keep it cold. Some are also battery
operated probably using a Peltier junction device and a LiIon battery.
It should be possible to make something similar for a tube of small
rubber cement. Patent pending...

>:Except for it being banned in California for using MEK and toluene as
>:the solvent, I wonder if this stuff might work better?
>:<https://www.ellsworth.com/products/by-manufacturer/3m/adhesives/solvent-based/3m-scotch-weld-1300-neoprene-rubber-and-gasket-adhesive-yellow-5-oz-tube/>
>:Bicycle tires are mostly butyl rubber.

>IT would work, but not as well as vulcanizing fluid. The tube contact
>portion of the patch is made of unvulcanized rubber, with a zinc
>ultra-accelerator mixed in. The vulcanizing fluid contains an
>accelerator that acts as a an activator for the ultra-acclerator.
>Without that, you just have glue. the tube-patch interface is subject
>ot lots of force, and glues have a hard time with it.

Zinc? I think there's more to it than that:
<https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/21029/what-does-vulcanizing-solution-in-patch-kits-consist-of-can-i-buy-it>
Suitable vulcanization accelerators include, but are not limited
to, thiazoles, sulphenamides, guanidines, thiourea derivatives,
amine derivatives, and combinations thereof. Examples of these
include, but are not limited to: N-cyclohexyl-2-benzothiazyl
sulfenamide (CBS), dibenzylamine (DBA), N-N'-diphenylguanidine
(DPG), Dicyclohexylamine (DCHA), 2-mercaptobenzothiozyl disulfide
(MBTS).
Ummm... right. Formulating such a witches brew is going to be a
challenge well beyond my limited resources and abilities. Maybe I
should just buy some elixer from Rema and see what it does:
<http://www.rematiptop.com/parts.php?sid=2>
<http://www.rematiptop.com/technical/trm/tds/RTTNA-001-TDS-Cold-Vulcanizing-Fluid.pdf>

<http://www.rematiptop.com/technical/trm/msds/RTT-TRM-018%20Rev.%207%20(Cold%20Vulcanizing%20Cement)%20071515AOM.pdf>
According to the SDS, the Cold Vulcanizing Fluid produces when heated:
Hydrogen chloride
Phosgene traces
Carbon monoxide
Carbon dioxide.

More:
<http://www.rematiptop.com/parts.php?sid=11>

Better cycling through chemistry.

[David Scheidt]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
:On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 12:24:07 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt

:<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:

:>It occurs to me that it might be getting hot enough to boil the
:>solvent. That would increase the pressure in the tube, and ight be
:>enough to force open a seal.

:Yep, that's possible. Googling for numbers:
: acetone: 56.0C (133F)
: hexane: 68.0C (154F)
: heptane: 98.4C (209F)
: toluene: 110.6C (231F)
:Boiling off the acetone might be possible, but the others are rather
:beyond what I would expect to find in a vehicle with the tube of
:rubber cement that is not in direct sunlight. There's also a water
:based formulation stabilized with ammonia which I can't seem to find
:any formulations. I've smelled quite a bit of rubber cement and have
:never smelled ammonia, so I suspect it's rather rare.

:As for forcing open a seal, I don't think so, unless the manufacturer
:intentionally installed an over pressure vent, such as in an alkaline
:battery. Before the seal on the tube blows, I would expect that the
:tube would inflate into a gas bag, much like a LiIon batteries does
:when almost dead and too rapidly charged. Like this:

:<https://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+ion+batakkkery+bulge&tbm=isch>
:I haven't seen or heard of that for rubber cement tubes. Therefore,

:overheating is probably not increasing the internal pressure.

it depends on how much over pressure the tube seal is designed to
take. If it fails at only a slight overpressure, you wouldn't see it
ballon up. (and once opened, I doubt the cap is terribly pressure
tight.

:>The increased vapor pressure of less

Zinc dibenzyldithiocarbamate or a related compound are the usual
choices for the patch. They're relatively stable at normal
temperatures, and won't start a vulcanizing reaction under normal
circumstances until they're exposed to an activator.
Dicyclohexylamine was the traditional choice, but there are other
amines that are used, too.

:Ummm... right. Formulating such a witches brew is going to be a

:challenge well beyond my limited resources and abilities. Maybe I
:should just buy some elixer from Rema and see what it does:
:<http://www.rematiptop.com/parts.php?sid=2>
:<http://www.rematiptop.com/technical/trm/tds/RTTNA-001-TDS-Cold-Vulcanizing-Fluid.pdf>

It used to contain a cyclhexylamine. and rema had a patent on using
ZBEC in the patch surface. (I think it was ZBEC, but certainly a zinc
thiocarbamate.)

:Better cycling through chemistry.

Oh, better lots of stuff through rubber chemistry.


--
This is not a randomly numbered sig.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Practically, yawl thrashing around obfuscating.

The answers are

Weldwood

and, the Bell tube at Wal is an active time limited vulcanizing compound IN THE TUBE.

Rema's compound seams longer lasting with a opened n closed used tube. Without gasketing.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 00:02:21 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>:As for forcing open a seal, I don't think so, unless the manufacturer
>:intentionally installed an over pressure vent, such as in an alkaline
>:battery. Before the seal on the tube blows, I would expect that the
>:tube would inflate into a gas bag, much like a LiIon batteries does
>:when almost dead and too rapidly charged. Like this:
>:<https://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+ion+batakkkery+bulge&tbm=isch>
>:I haven't seen or heard of that for rubber cement tubes. Therefore,
>:overheating is probably not increasing the internal pressure.

>it depends on how much over pressure the tube seal is designed to
>take. If it fails at only a slight overpressure, you wouldn't see it
>ballon up. (and once opened, I doubt the cap is terribly pressure
>tight.

Agreed, but if it were set for such a low pressure, I would expect to
see liquid rubber cement around the valve or cap. What I've seen is
simply loss of contents, with no visible chemical leaks on the squeeze
tube, on an un-opened cap. If I find some time, I'll take a tube of
tire patch cement, and heat it with a hot air gun or oven, keeping the
temperature near about 150C. That should boil most of the solvents in
the tube. If the tube puffs up like a balloon, then the boiling
solvent theory has some merit. If not, I'll attribute it to magic
until I can contrive a better explanation.

>:Ummm... right. Formulating such a witches brew is going to be a
>:challenge well beyond my limited resources and abilities. Maybe I
>:should just buy some elixer from Rema and see what it does:
>:<http://www.rematiptop.com/parts.php?sid=2>
>:<http://www.rematiptop.com/technical/trm/tds/RTTNA-001-TDS-Cold-Vulcanizing-Fluid.pdf>

>It used to contain a cyclhexylamine. and rema had a patent on using
>ZBEC in the patch surface. (I think it was ZBEC, but certainly a zinc
>thiocarbamate.)

I did some patent chasing and found:
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=pts&hl=en&q=rema+vulcanizing+zbec>
For the US, this seems to be the main patent as owned by Michelin.
<https://www.google.com/patents/US20100186863>
It seems to have a good explanation of how ultra-accelerators work,
how to bond two pieces of cured rubber, and the composition of the
chemicals involved. It deals mainly with tubeless automobile tires
and mounting electronic monitoring devices on the inside of the tire,
but is close enough to bicycle tube type tires to be useful. This is
going to take me some time to read and hopefully understand.

>:Better cycling through chemistry.

>Oh, better lots of stuff through rubber chemistry.

I usually avoid things that I can't spell or pronounce.

[David Scheidt]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
:On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 00:02:21 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt

Look up willy Gruber's patents. Gruber is one of the founders of
Rema. There's a series of them that describe the progression of the
tip-top patches. Some of them are cited as referenced in hte michein
patent. https://www.google.com/patents/US3039509 is partiularly
interesting.

:>:Better cycling through chemistry.

:>Oh, better lots of stuff through rubber chemistry.

:I usually avoid things that I can't spell or pronounce.

Probalby shoulnd't go to bed, I'm sure it contains them.

--
sig 63

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 04:13:14 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>Look up willy Gruber's patents. Gruber is one of the founders of
>Rema.

Searching for the company name seems to work better:
<https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=pts&hl=en&q=inassignee:%22Stahlgruber+Gruber+%26+Co+Otto%22>
26 hits but much of it does NOT apply to rubber tubes and tires or is
in German. Limiting the search to English reduces the number of hits
to 10.
<https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=pts&hl=en&q=inassignee:%22Stahlgruber+Gruber+%26+Co+Otto%22&tbs=ptso:us

>There's a series of them that describe the progression of the
>tip-top patches. Some of them are cited as referenced in hte michein
>patent. https://www.google.com/patents/US3039509 is partiularly
>interesting.

Thanks. I'll read it next week. I'll be busy through the weekend.

>:>:Better cycling through chemistry.
>:>Oh, better lots of stuff through rubber chemistry.
>:I usually avoid things that I can't spell or pronounce.

>Probalby shoulnd't go to bed, I'm sure it contains them.

Not a problem because I'm not getting much sleep. I have a mouse
that's building a condominium somewhere in the walls. He or she is
keeping me awake all night. That might explain why I'm currently
spending so much time on this instead of sleeping.

One thing nice about being into electronics. We mostly talk in
acronyms, which are much easier to pronounce, spell, and remember than
long concatenated chemical terms.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Rema is more fluid less viscous than Wal Bell ... more toluene et al in Rema, plus ?

A similarity to NAPA. Keeping in mind NAPA is rolled with heat n pressure

Bell types are prob seperate
Chemical idea$

[Joerg]

On 2017-06-21 12:32, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 1:28:06 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>
>> What brand and where did you buy?
>
> It says ProPatch on the label. It's been too long to remember more.
>

It may have been a very long time. I only know medical contact patches
under that name and some for sports injuries.

>> Ok, but the normal process requires vulcanizing the sanded tube
>> portion. This is done by applying the cement and then letting it
>> dry. The folks who wrote the instructions for Slime 1050 seem to
>> have forgotten (!) that important part of letting things dry. How
>> is that going to work with a glueless patch?
>
> Whatever gives you the idea that you are "vulcanizing" anything with
> glue? All that means is that you are adding sulfur to natural
> rubber.
>

Rema gave me that idea :-)

http://www.rematiptop.com/parts.php?sid=11

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I don't believe their method is necessary. But it appears they are using a natural rubber patch and then using their active glue to chemically add sulfur to the material so that it is one piece with the tube. I wouldn't think that to be necessary. But perhaps since there is no appreciable smell difference between the Rema glue and that of ProPatch.

http://propatch.com/

[Joerg]

No idea, I'd have to ask one of our Labradors :-)


> http://propatch.com/
>

At first I thought they still have <$1 patch kits but then saw that's
only if you buy 1000 of them.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

And I figured the group would be more than willing to have a source of cheap patch kits. Not one single person would buy one from me. So now I have patch kits that I can will my grandchildren.

[Joerg]

> of cheap patch kits. ...


I can't understand that. I'd have taken 4-5 kits if there wasn't any
"Only one per rider" rule.

Sometimes I suspect that there are cyclists who swap just out the tube
and throw the punctured one into the trash at home. I have met some that
order half a dozen at a time and can't imagine them to fix any tube.
They often buy cheap thin tubes and consequently get a lot of flats. I
have extremely thick ones and rarely get flats but the tubes are heavy.

Not one single person would buy one from me. So
> now I have patch kits that I can will my grandchildren.
>

Unless you vacuum-seal and temp-control them the rubber cement tubes
will probably hard or their contents shrivel up. Not sure what its shelf
life is even under protective conditions.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Among the other things besides cleaning the chain this morning was opening the seat pack and cleaning it out. Inside was one of those patch kits that had to have been there for four years and the glue felt normal from the outside. The box of patch kits are here next to the computer so they undergo only the usual bay-side heating and cooling cycles inside a house.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 9:26:48 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 1:50:31 PM UTC-4, David Scheidt wrote:
> > Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > :On 6/20/2017 9:27 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > :> On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 5:58:34 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > :>> On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 02:12:04 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
> > :>> <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
> > :>>

> > :>>> In the case of the little tubes, the problem is not always that the
> > :>>> solvent has evaporated. The contents of tube can vulcanize itself
> > :>>> into a hard mass, even in the presence of solvent. That's
> > :>>> particularly likely where it's hot, and the vulcanizing fluid is kept
> > :>>> somehwerer like a seat wedge, where it's well heated.
> > :>>
> > :>> I keep both automobile and bicycle tire patch kits in my car. It gets
> > :>> rather warm in the car at times. Both kits include those little tubes
> > :>> of rubber cement. At best, they last a few months. I tore apart one
> > :>> that was in my rather hot car for over one year. It was almost
> > :>> completely empty with only a tiny rubber-like blob at the bottom of
> > :>> the tube. It had never been opened and was not punctured or leaking.
> > :>> At first, I thought it might be defective from the factory, but then I
> > :>> found another tube with the same problem. I've gone no further with
> > :>> this investigation. If it's heat that's causing the cement to harden,
> > :>> then storing it in a car or riding around with it on a bicycle, are
> > :>> not going to work.

> > :>>
> > :>> Except for it being banned in California for using MEK and toluene as

> > :>> the solvent, I wonder if this stuff might work better?
> > :>> <https://www.ellsworth.com/products/by-manufacturer/3m/adhesives/solvent-based/3m-scotch-weld-1300-neoprene-rubber-and-gasket-adhesive-yellow-5-oz-tube/>
> > :>> Bicycle tires are mostly butyl rubber.
> > :>

> > :> What ever the solvent is, that is the carrier, doesn't "dry up". Eventually it leaks out through the crimped end of the tube.
> >
> > :I wondered about that, and whether some more enthusiastic crimping would
> > :help, using a bench vise.
> >
> > When the tubes were made of lead foil, it might have. They're now
> > some sort of laminated plastic material that's closed by
> > (heat|ultrasonic) welding.
> >
> > :But to me the problem seems small. Patch kits are cheap.
> >
> > they're cheap, but when you need one, it would be nice if the one in
> > your bag worked.
> >
> > --
> > sig 118

>
> That's precisely why I check my tube of glue BEFORE I go on a longer ride. It's part of my Pre-Ride checklist. I'd rather discover a problem here at home than many many kilometers out on a ride whether the problem be repair equipment or something on the bicycle.
>

> Cheers
>
> Cheers

Someone emailed me and asked how I check the tube of glue without opening it.

More preventative amintenance.

Since the purpose of checking a tube of glue is to make sure it's useable it should be obvious that I open the tube of glue and make sure it's still useable. I do that BEFORE going on a ride where the glue might be needed. Then I check it before any other long ride afterwards. I find that the lead tubes or other metal tubes of cememt can be rolled from the crimped end as the glue inside is used up. That keeps the amount of air insidethe tubes at a mininum once the tube is opened and some glue used.

For some strange reason I have yet to have a tube of rubber cememt go bad when I needed it for a repair.

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

SR's temp range skews results for USA

[Joerg]

Yeah, but it does get really hot in your area. Yesterday I did a 40mi
trek just to see this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHqN9TZ_JZQ

Climbing the hills at the end in 100F wheater with no shade was nasty
but had to be done. Alternating between two sweat bands, with one airing
out dangling from a pannier loop. I guess nobody would have drafted me
for long but there were barely any other riders anyhow.

What are you going to do with all those patch kits? Will them to your
grandkids?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Send me your address and I'll send you a few.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The easy way to test a patch glue is to squeeze the tube. Since the way they fail is by emitting the acetone and other lighter products either through the pores of the tube or the incorrectly crimped back, the tube will squash down to a third or so on a bad tube.

[avag...@gmail.com]

metal tube is porous ?

wuhwuhwuh Bell makes porous metal tubes

you bought 20 tubes into a closed container then 60 days later stuck your head in ?

wuhwuhwuh

[Joerg]

Just sent it to your gmail address. However, I would like to pay for them.

If mailing isn't too much hassle for you that might be a way to get rid
of the kits. Nearly everyone on this NG will need a new patch kit every
so often because they had to use theirs on the road.

I wonder whether putting the cement tubes in the freezer would stretch
their unopened shelf life. My wife would frown a bit because I already
commandeered some freezer space for my brewing hops.

[Joerg]

I've had tubes that felt absolutely normal, were not squashable, yet
when I came upon a rider with a flat and had sanded the tube the cement
came out like semi-dry snot. It wouldn't even stick to the rubber much,
you could "roll it back off".

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 1:19:22 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

> I've had tubes that felt absolutely normal, were not squashable, yet
> when I came upon a rider with a flat and had sanded the tube the cement
> came out like semi-dry snot. It wouldn't even stick to the rubber much,
> you could "roll it back off".
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Again, that's why you should check your tube repair cememt BEFORE going on the ride.

Cheers

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I don't think it makes any difference. Acetone's boiling point is 132 F and few homes get that warm. But sitting inside a seat pack in the sun sure could.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:19:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>
> I've had tubes that felt absolutely normal, were not squashable, yet
> when I came upon a rider with a flat and had sanded the tube the cement
> came out like semi-dry snot. It wouldn't even stick to the rubber much,
> you could "roll it back off".

Now that you mention it I suppose I have as well. Open the tube and press on it and nothing comes out until you're almost completely compressed and then a bit comes out.

Perhaps the difference is that the bay area even on "warm" days isn't like central or southern California.

[Joerg]

Probably right. Although some chemical aging reactions aren't really
digital but somewhat gradual.

My patch kit rides in a belt pack which in turn rides in one of the
black panniers. On Friday I was surprised that the water I had in those
panniers was almost too hot to drink after a few hours of riding in the
sun. I wish Shimano would make a hub driven compressor ...

[Joerg]

Yeah, by opening it and then it'll really go bad fast.

[Joerg]

On 2017-06-24 13:44, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:19:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>
>> I've had tubes that felt absolutely normal, were not squashable,
>> yet when I came upon a rider with a flat and had sanded the tube
>> the cement came out like semi-dry snot. It wouldn't even stick to
>> the rubber much, you could "roll it back off".
>
> Now that you mention it I suppose I have as well. Open the tube and
> press on it and nothing comes out until you're almost completely
> compressed and then a bit comes out.
>

Usually with a loud fart sound and then some gooey mess. Once a tube has
been opened it takes only a few month to reach that state here in the
Sierra Foothills.

> Perhaps the difference is that the bay area even on "warm" days isn't
> like central or southern California.
>

I think it was in this NG where people ridiculed me for carrying a
gallon of water on a 20mi singletrack. They should ride with me once, in
August or September. Sometimes we have MTB riders from the Bay Area come
up here to ride the trails, carrying two smallish bottles when the
forecast says 105F and there is not one cloud in sight. Even a 2-liter
hydration pack won't cut it.

[avag...@gmail.com]

weldwood, at the hardware store

https://www.google.com/#q=alcoholism+high+temperatures+and+athleticism&spf=1498346092855

[Joerg]

What's that got to do with ... rubber cement?

[Sir Ridesalot]

Utter nonsense again Joerg. I have OPENED tubes of tube patch cememt that are a year or more old and are still useable.

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

Weldwood at the hardware store.

Doahn sniff it

[AMuzi]

On 6/24/2017 6:44 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> Weldwood at the hardware store.
>
> Doahn sniff it
>

Right. Just drink it instead, like sanitizer:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/04/24/dangerous-trend-teens-drinking-hand-sanitizer-to-get-drunk/

Madison WI removed the hand sanitizer dispensers in the City
building because bums drank them dry.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 4:26:58 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> Utter nonsense again Joerg. I have OPENED tubes of tube patch cememt that are a year or more old and are still useable.

Is there some reason you can't follow the conversation? We just heard someone not to long ago telling us that these tubes were made of plastic because they were going bad unopened. I noted that with the tubes directly in front of me that they were metal. But that the fold in the back of the Rema tubes could easily be leaking the solvent out when they got overheated. That my ProPatch kits didn't seem to do that even though they looked otherwise identical.

EVERYONE agrees that once opened the tubes of glue rapidly become unusable.

Are writing things just to make sure everyone knows you're here?

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://www.google.com/#q=DOES+DRINKING+ALCOHOL+IMPAIR+HYDRATION&spf=1498407907239

no, frequently mentioning alcohol use age is a symptom of a disease

definitely not bicycle or squash related

[Joerg]

What are you smoking there?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 9:53:54 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-06-25 09:30, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > https://www.google.com/#q=DOES+DRINKING+ALCOHOL+IMPAIR+HYDRATION&spf=1498407907239
> >
> > no, frequently mentioning alcohol use age is a symptom of a disease
> >
> > definitely not bicycle or squash related
> >
>
> What are you smoking there?

From is postings I'd say dollar bills that had been used to carry amphetamines.

[avag...@gmail.com]

J, the process is stressing the organs.

Hydrate with water n juice at night not beer

[avag...@gmail.com]

If yawl come up with rational evidence of postings suggesting drug involvement, I'D that

Thst disagreement leads to character denigration from alleged drug use age is a tool of 3rd grade imbicils

[Joerg]

On 2017-06-25 18:15, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> J, the process is stressing the organs.
>
> Hydrate with water n juice at night not beer
>

I don't drink beer alone. During a 40mi ride in summer I consume a
gallon of water plus 1/2 to 1 quart of electrolyte. In winter still more
than 1/2 gallon. At home along with beer another similar qty of ice water.

[avag...@gmail.com]

you are warned.....claiming dilution of consumed poison isn't gonna go far

[avag...@gmail.com]

I hear the S Islands are a trip

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_beer_consumption_per_capita

http://media.washtimes.com.s3.amazonaws.com/media/image/2012/10/31/people-george-wendt_lea.jpg

[Joerg]

On 2017-06-26 09:14, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 12:01:57 PM UTC-4, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 10:05:10 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-06-25 18:15, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> J, the process is stressing the organs.
>>>>
>>>> Hydrate with water n juice at night not beer
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't drink beer alone. During a 40mi ride in summer I consume a
>>> gallon of water plus 1/2 to 1 quart of electrolyte. In winter still more
>>> than 1/2 gallon. At home along with beer another similar qty of ice water.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards, Joerg
>>>
>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>
>> you are warned.....claiming dilution of consumed poison isn't gonna go far
>
> I hear the S Islands are a trip
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_beer_consumption_per_capita
>

I was born in the #4 country on that list. Where beer is considered
basic nutrition.

[...]

[Doug Landau]

Not nonsense; the tubes are prone to developing hairline cracks. They don't have to be opened to go dry, just jostled around

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Because of the rate of alcoholism in the US many people are quite against any beverage that has alcohol in it. Since fermented or distilled beverages are made in every nation in every known part of history there is obviously advantages to it.

I certainly feel better after a ride drinking a weak English ale. But I don't overdo alcohol.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I don't believe the hairline crack story. I know that I keep the tubes in their boxes that are packed just tight enough to prevent motion and not so tight as to allow the tubes to be crushed. And in long term storage in my seat pack I have had them go dry. I am sure that it has to do with the crimp in the bottom of the tube. The solvents are very thin and in hot enough weather could easily leak from microscopic irregularities in the crimp. In my garage that gets pretty warm but not hot these tubes last almost forever.

[Joerg]

In Germany they have the "Radlermass" which translates to "cyclist's
stein". It contains 50% regular strength Bavararian beer and 50%
lemonade. The lemonade is the sugary variety so it gives back some
carbs. It is very popular at beer gardens where lots of cyclists come by.

In the olden days of the Tour de France they lived a lot less healthy:

https://stopfrackingaround.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/img_2370.jpg

[Doug Landau]

On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 7:20:41 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/24/2017 6:44 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Weldwood at the hardware store.
> >
> > Doahn sniff it
> >
>
> Right. Just drink it instead, like sanitizer:
> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/04/24/dangerous-trend-teens-drinking-hand-sanitizer-to-get-drunk/
>
> Madison WI removed the hand sanitizer dispensers in the City
> building because bums drank them dry.
>

Maybe there's some food value in the aloe vera, too

[avag...@gmail.com]

We compliment L on his humor

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 20:11:41 -0700 (PDT), avag...@gmail.com wrote:

>We compliment L on his humor

Which "L"?

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[avag...@gmail.com]

both

[Luns Tee]

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 8:29:00 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > What ever the solvent is, that is the carrier, doesn't "dry up". Eventually it leaks out through the crimped end of the tube.
>
> I wondered about that, and whether some more enthusiastic crimping would
> help, using a bench vise.
>
> But to me the problem seems small. Patch kits are cheap.

I had a tube of patch cement which served me for almost 10 years, which I attribute to my habit of 'augmenting the crimp'. I dispense cement the same as I do toothpaste, squeezing at the crimp end. With the cement, I also fold up the crimp end as I go. I fold over the crimp onto the tube, and when it seems I've squeezed out the glue that overlaps the crimp, I fold it again. I may have squeezed the (several layers of) crimp with pliers at some point along the way.

I'm still amazed that there doesn't seem to be any solvent loss from the cap end.

When my 10 year tube finally ran out - it was literally good to the last drop - I found the half dozen or so new unopened tubes that I'd bought as spares in the meanwhile, had all dried up.