Carbon Bikes and Quality Control

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Quality control for metal bikes is relatively easy - especially for steel since all of the important connection can be seen on the workmanship.

But carbon fiber bikes are another matter. No matter how well the factory is trying to make no errors these can be made. And once made they are almost invisible.

John seems to want to argue that you can get crystal clear epoxies with viscosities down to 200 when my source says that they are limited to 1200 to 1600. This makes little difference since these particular epoxies are usually only used on the surface layer of the frames for purely decorative effect.

But those are the last layers laid on the inflatable bladder that is used for the inside mold of a one piece frame or fork.

The inside layers are the sources of danger. High end bikes use many very thin layers and the lay-up is completed as rapidly as possible. A bubble can be caught or a section of cloth may not be properly wetted. This makes an area where movement between the layers can begin and this can break down the surrounding resins.

Now my experience has shown me that CF is not reliable. But companies whose engineers I respect and my own research have shown that carbon fiber without any errors in construction can be much stronger and lighter than steel and have as long if not longer life.

So what we need is more information on the percentages of CF bikes that are having quality control problems.

And you can bet that the companies that make these bikes are going to remain tight lipped on this even if only one bike in a thousand have quality issues.

Question - are the pro level bikes that are breaking so often custom built in their company's racing labs so that the quality control is much lower than the assembly lines in China or Taiwan? If so with increasing familiarity with the material we can expect the racing teams to have progressively less trouble with their mounts.

Once constructed there is almost no way of detecting fatal flaws in the construction and that is a bonus for the American legal system in which a broken fingernail can end in a million dollar settlement.

So until we have tort reform we have little way of knowing just how safe a carbon fiber frame and fork are.

So you make your choice and you take your chances. And please don't hire a lawyer the day you buy a new super-light bike.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 10:40:18 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Quality control for metal bikes is relatively easy - especially for steel since all of the important connection can be seen on the workmanship.
>

Quality control for metal bikes is easy? With brazing and lugs, no longer used, you cannot see or tell if the brass/silver has covered the entire inside surface of the lugs. Just have to hope. And with welding, TIG, the surface weld is not the only story. You have to look at the inside too. This will tell if the penetration is correct. The surface can be nice and neat but if the weld does not penetrate the correct amount, then its just appearance and its a poor weld. Do you think every frame company takes a microscope or camera and looks at the inside of every weld? Or more likely the guy taking the frame off the welding rack just glances at the welds and says looks good.

>
> Now my experience has shown me that CF is not reliable.
>

> So what we need is more information on the percentages of CF bikes that are having quality control problems.
>

I assume others have asked, but please enlighten us about all the experience with carbon fiber you claim to have. I'm guessing the experts have chemical engineering degrees and have observed hundreds or thousands of controlled experiments involving carbon fiber. Have you owned thousands of carbon frames and thousands of carbon handlebars and thousands of carbon cranksets and thousands of carbon rims from many, many makers? That must cost you millions and millions of dollars to buy these test samples. And the time to test all these samples must be enormous.

I suspect the percentage of carbon frame bikes having problems is the same percentage of aluminum or steel frames having problems.

> Question - are the pro level bikes that are breaking so often custom built in their company's racing labs so that the quality control is much lower than the assembly lines in China or Taiwan?

Pro bikes break often? Now I have seem a few frames break on TV races. When there is a big crash at 35 mph and ten riders and frames all go flipping into the air and sliding on the pavement, some of the bikes break. But usually you see a rider with half his clothes ripped off and blood running down his legs, arms, and face try to get back on his still operating bike and ride down the road. Sometimes someone will come off the sidelines and grab him and make him stop because he is wobbly and has a concussion. But the bike still works after the crash. Pro teams may retire/scrap the frame that night because after the crash it is just not trusted anymore. And does not look good either.

[jbeattie]

I don't get your point about the American legal system, tort reform and knowing whether CFRP frames/forks are safe. People break forks and sue. I've defended those cases. Failures are also reported to the CPSC and may result in a recall. Go to the CPSC website and search for "bicycle fork." There is also a CPSC requirement for fork strength, but it's pretty minimal. ISO/CEN/ASTM have more rigorous standards. Again, this does not mean every fork that comes off the line is flawless.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

On Mon, 29 May 2017 11:39:33 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<russell...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 10:40:18 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Quality control for metal bikes is relatively easy - especially for steel since all of the important connection can be seen on the workmanship.
>>
>
>Quality control for metal bikes is easy? With brazing and lugs, no longer used, you cannot see or tell if the brass/silver has covered the entire inside surface of the lugs. Just have to hope. And with welding, TIG, the surface weld is not the only story. You have to look at the inside too. This will tell if the penetration is correct. The surface can be nice and neat but if the weld does not penetrate the correct amount, then its just appearance and its a poor weld. Do you think every frame company takes a microscope or camera and looks at the inside of every weld? Or more likely the guy taking the frame off the welding rack just glances at the welds and says looks good.

When "sweating" pipe joints it is fairly easy to see whether he joint
is fully brazed by watching the inside while applying the brazing
material from the outside. You can actually see the brazing material
arrive at the other end of the joint... assuming of course that you
can see the other end.

The usual method of inspecting welds made in structures that you
really don't want to break like gas pipelines and probably bicycles is
to X-ray them. Then the films are inspected using a light table to
ensure that the weld is within specifications.

Having said that a competent welder can usually pretty well tell
whether he is getting 100% penetration using stick or TIG but I doubt
many production bike frames are welded that way. From looking at the
usual bike welding I'd say that it is MIG.

>
>
>>
>> Now my experience has shown me that CF is not reliable.
>>
>> So what we need is more information on the percentages of CF bikes that are having quality control problems.
>>
>
>
>I assume others have asked, but please enlighten us about all the experience with carbon fiber you claim to have. I'm guessing the experts have chemical engineering degrees and have observed hundreds or thousands of controlled experiments involving carbon fiber. Have you owned thousands of carbon frames and thousands of carbon handlebars and thousands of carbon cranksets and thousands of carbon rims from many, many makers? That must cost you millions and millions of dollars to buy these test samples. And the time to test all these samples must be enormous.
>
>I suspect the percentage of carbon frame bikes having problems is the same percentage of aluminum or steel frames having problems.
>
>
>
>> Question - are the pro level bikes that are breaking so often custom built in their company's racing labs so that the quality control is much lower than the assembly lines in China or Taiwan?
>
>
>Pro bikes break often? Now I have seem a few frames break on TV races. When there is a big crash at 35 mph and ten riders and frames all go flipping into the air and sliding on the pavement, some of the bikes break. But usually you see a rider with half his clothes ripped off and blood running down his legs, arms, and face try to get back on his still operating bike and ride down the road. Sometimes someone will come off the sidelines and grab him and make him stop because he is wobbly and has a concussion. But the bike still works after the crash. Pro teams may retire/scrap the frame that night because after the crash it is just not trusted anymore. And does not look good either.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Would you care to comment whether, based on the court cases you are
failure with and the C.F. bicycles you are aware of, C.F. bike
breakage, disregarding severe crashes which would likely damage a
metal frame, appear to be a significant problem?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 29 May 2017 08:40:13 -0700 (PDT), cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>The inside layers are the sources of danger. High end bikes use many very thin
>layers and the lay-up is completed as rapidly as possible. A bubble can be
>caught or a section of cloth may not be properly wetted. This makes an area
>where movement between the layers can begin and this can break down the
>surrounding resins.

Very true. However, this "movement" is what allows ultrasonic and
vibration testing to find flaws in adhesive connections much easier
than finding breaks in welded connections. If there is no mechanical
connection between parts, ultrasonics will not transfer between them.
Even if the two parts are physically touching and comprise an
interference fit, ultrasonics will not couple all the energy through
the connection. Only when there is some adhesive, that will transfer
the energy across the boundary zone, will there be coupling. This can
easily be seen on a pass through or reflection ultrasonic test. It
will also show up on a vibration test, where the resonance pattern
will be very difficult if there are voids or discontinuities in the
bonding.

Presumably, such testing is done at the factory, but might be lacking
or sample tested to cut costs. I don't know. I've never visited
China to see for myself. My guess(tm) is that the inspection is so
simple, quick, cheap, and easy, that it would foolish to eliminate it.
At worst, simply shaking or banging on the frame, and looking at the
resonance waveform on an FFT vibration analyzer, to compare it with a
known good frame, would be sufficient to detect a problem.

Incidentally, in my dealings with a local plastic furniture factory, I
ran into similar testing. The testing wasn't to detect glue voids or
other imperfections. It was to detect when someone forgot to glue a
joint. That happened a few years previously causing a chair to
collapse under someone, allegedly causing grievous injuries sufficient
to inspire expensive personal injury litigation. After that was over,
I'm fairly sure that the factory considered QA and inspection rather
seriously.



--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 29 May 2017 20:31:17 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
(yada-yada-yada)

I was looking for some numbers on CF related lawsuits. I still
haven't found anything useful, but I did blunder across this article
in a legal blog, which has some relevent data and sample lawsuits:
"Improper Bicycle Assembly and Defective Bicycle Parts"
<http://floridacyclinglaw.com/blog/archives/improper-bicycle-assembly-and-defective-bicycle-parts>

Bicycle recalls are another marginal source of failures:
<http://www.bicycleretailer.com/recalls-0> (12 pages)
Interesting. There's even a recall for defective rim tape. However,
I found very few CF related recalls. Some for fork failures and none
for CF frame failures. For example:
<http://www.bicycleretailer.com/recalls/2016/02/19/enve-recalls-carbon-road-disc-forks>
<http://www.bicycleretailer.com/recalls/2015/12/17/focus-recalls-some-izalco-max-over-fork-issue>
<http://www.bicycleretailer.com/recalls/2015/12/02/felt-recalls-645-bikes-carbon-fiber-seatposts-can-crack>
No epidemic here.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Excuse me Russel - if you don't know how to tell that a brazed joint is totally filled you aren't a metal worker. Within ten minutes of using a torch I could tell you. This isn't anything difficult. A brazed joint is not a weld. They are not referred to as a weld.

And yes I have asked. But companies are not forthcoming about this. Privately I'm told that the super-lights have a LOT of breakage. I assumed this to be normal breakage but after researching the material more discovered that as the engineers at these companies are saying, properly done these CF frames can last a lifetime. This leaves the only excuse for the amount of breakage the almost impossible task of quality control on a frame that is built from the inside out and hence having all of the mistakes covered up where they can't be seen. Some companies are using ultra-sound to detect problems but they still seem to have problems. I assume this is because the defects that cause problems are simply too small for ultra-sound to detect.

If you don't know what's breaking in the pro peloton then you aren't going to be convinced by me telling you that I've chased this around and heard from pro mechanics about massive failures of these bikes. That many of the riders go through a dozen bikes in a grand tour. That all you have to do is compare the "retirement" list of modern races with those from the time of LeMonde.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

If people want to take a chance on super-light frames that use construction techniques that cannot be properly quality controlled then they should not have the right to sue the companies that are doing the best job possible. They should be forced to PROVE that these companies are not doing the best possible jobs.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Jeff - on the Apple assembly line they were actually whipping workers to work faster. Do you really think that that attitude is somehow less prevalent with bicycle manufacturers? I would bet that one out of ten bikes are quality tested with ultrasound or vibrational testing which I would have little faith in since the lay-ups are so thin that if the problem isn't obvious you would be hard pressed to detect it with vibration. Remember that the inside and outside coats are probably fine. A small bubble couldn't be detected by either method.

[jbeattie]

A while ago, I did a verdict/settlement search on LEXIS -- which is a poor data base because it relies on voluntary reporting. There were a handful -- maybe five -- carbon fork cases. One of the largest verdicts (against Trek) was taken reversed by the court of appeals. http://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-district-court-of-appeal/1694841.html

Many attorneys (including me) don't report, so its impossible to get an accurate number. ISO (Insurance Services Office) keeps a claims data base, but I think it is by claimant and not product or cause. Many failures never get beyond the warranty replacement phase.

None of these resources is very good at weeding out the true product failures from the Miguelez situation where something got caught in the wheel or the rider crash causing the failure. I had a case where a dog leash got caught in the front wheels and snapped the CF forks. The manufacturer settled for a tiny sum to make the case go away. I had one where there was a manufacturing defect (bond failure), and the manufacturer paid a reasonable sum. I tried a shock fork case to a defense verdict, but that was aluminum. I had a bunch of aluminum shock fork cases, all of the failures due to the same design defect. That's the deal -- if there is a massive design or manufacturing defect, then you see bunches of these cases. Even if my bicycle manufacturer clients chose to send the work to another attorney, I'd still see the filings in the courthouse news. I would not see the claims being handled in-house by risk management, but I would hear about the recall. Reputable manufacturers are pretty quick to recall.

So like I said, I'm not seeing an epidemic -- but that doesn't mean one-off failures don't occur or that there are not failures resulting in warranty replacement claims. Every bike part has a failure rate.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 30 May 2017 07:10:00 -0700 (PDT), cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

>Jeff - on the Apple assembly line they were actually whipping
>workers to work faster. Do you really think that that attitude
>is somehow less prevalent with bicycle manufacturers?

"The beatings will continue until morale improves"
Captain Bligh in the Mutiny on the Bounty.

>I would bet that one out of ten bikes are quality tested with
>ultrasound or vibrational testing which I would have little
>faith in since the lay-ups are so thin that if the problem
>isn't obvious you would be hard pressed to detect it with
>vibration.
>
>Remember that the inside and outside coats are probably fine.
>A small bubble couldn't be detected by either method.

End to end vibration and resonance testing is a QA test performed on a
finished frame. These do not show the location of a flaw. They
merely detects that a frame is structurally different from a known
good sample and that it should be inspected further. They're useless
for detecting small bubbles but will detect most every other type of
construction and assembly defect.

Ultrasonic inspection comes in various flavors (reflection, pass
through, axial, diffraction, etc).
<http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/ut-flaw/>
You would not find these on the production line as they require an
expert to operate and analyze the output.
<http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/omniscan-mx2/>
They're commonly used for composite inspection:
<http://www.qualitymag.com/articles/92050-ultrasonic-testing-of-fiberglass-and-carbon-fiber-composites>
The 3rd photo from the left clearly shows the voids in the hull.

Some of the schemes and devices used in aircraft laminate inspection:
<http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/applications/non-destructive-bond-testing-aircraft-composites/>

There are also simple testers designed specifically for composite and
laminate inspection:
<http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/ultrasonic-precision-thickness-gages/35rdc/>
I would expect to find plenty of these in the factory.

There's also radiographic (xray) and radioactive inspection equipment,
which I would not expect to see on a production line.

I don't know if any of this is actually performed. My guess(tm) is
that they do an overall vibration test to look for gross errors. If
something is found, they simply trash the frame because it's cheaper
to do so than to perform difficult corrective repairs and patch work
on a built up frame. You might be correct that they ignore bubbles.
Dunno.

It would be interesting to rent or borrow one of these ultrasonic
inspection instruments, and run through the inventory at an LBS (local
bike shop). If your suspicions and allegations are correct, it should
identify some defects.

[jbeattie]

Our local CF inspection and repair outfit: http://www.ruckuscomp.com/process Scroll down on the page (graphic restoration). Note to Tom: stop buying Colnagos.

-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 10:32:10 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> Note to Tom: stop buying Colnagos.

So most of those repairs are to other bikes but Colnago is more dangerous?

Most of the other bikes are breaking under 150 lb riders that do 1,000 miles a year but a Colnago breaking under a 190 lb rider that does 6,000 miles a year is taking a more dangerous chance?

[jbeattie]

I know of no one who has broken as many CF forks of the same brand as you. You even have friends who broke Colnagos.

I broke a bunch of Cannondale aluminum frames, but they didn't drop me on my face. They had frame cracks and no fork failures. I weigh more than you and ride more miles annually (although on several different bikes) and have never broken a fork. Not saying I won't, but if I were breaking Cannondale forks (for example), I'd buy Trek or Specialized -- and a better health plan.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 30 May 2017 10:32:08 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
<jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 10:08:22 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> I don't know if any of this is actually performed. My guess(tm) is
>> that they do an overall vibration test to look for gross errors. If
>> something is found, they simply trash the frame because it's cheaper
>> to do so than to perform difficult corrective repairs and patch work
>> on a built up frame.

>Our local CF inspection and repair outfit: http://www.ruckuscomp.com/process
>Scroll down on the page (graphic restoration). Note to Tom: stop buying Colnagos.
>-- Jay Beattie.

Such repair shops are great for fixing damage to an individual
bicycle, which can be an economical alternative to buying a new frame
($300 to maybe $2,000). However, for a factory production line in
China, the cost of repair would far exceed the cost to manufacture for
the frame. That's only the frame because the bicycle hasn't been
loaded with attachments, accouterments, and bolt-ons quite yet. That
makes the frame somewhat cheap, making it more economical to throw it
out instead of repair it.

>> It would be interesting to rent or borrow one of these ultrasonic
>> inspection instruments, and run through the inventory at an LBS (local
>> bike shop). If your suspicions and allegations are correct, it should
>> identify some defects.

If you have time, give the Ruckus Composites people a visit or call.
Ask if they have any ultrasonic inspection equipment, which model, how
it's used, etc.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

That's strange because I only broke one Colnago fork. The others were Look and IRD. And it was the IRD that dropped me on my face. So you count one as "more than anyone"?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Broken+Cannondale+frames+and+forks&rlz=1C1KMZB_enUS532US532&tbm=isch&imgil=MbUCkWlel17MJM%253A%253B1dzgXNgXlb55KM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fforums.mtbr.com%25252Fcannondale%25252Fbad-crash-lefty-separated-while-riding-752646.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=MbUCkWlel17MJM%253A%252C1dzgXNgXlb55KM%252C_&usg=__f8p1QSAKvmqju_l9HHSBUfcW9TM%3D&biw=1280&bih=615&ved=0ahUKEwjD5NHj5JjUAhWCrlQKHUl6CgYQyjcILw&ei=awIuWYODPYLd0gLJ9Kkw#imgrc=MbUCkWlel17MJM:

"Cannondale - doesn't offer a Limited Lifetime Warranty because their bikes fail (crack as you put it) on a regular basis."

" was commuting to work on my carbon fiber cannondale synapse. I had just climbed a very short hill, coasted for a bit, and on my next pedal stroke by bike came to an immediate and abrupt complete stope. Fortunately, I was only going about 8mph and was able to click out of the pedals without crashing. Upon inspection, my rear derailluer was firmly jammed into the rear wheel and spokes as well as into the rear cassette. I thought the derailleur hanger had broken.

I took the bike to the shop where I purchased the bike (Old Town Bikes, Olympia, WA.) They were able to pry the rear wheel away and get the derailluer out of the spokes. Upon their inspection, the dearailleur hanger had not broken but had torn through the carbon fiber rear dropouts. The result... carbon fiber frame us now useless. The bike shop submitted a claim to Cannondale. Cannondale came back with their decision today and said they would offer me 20 percent off for crash replacement. I explained, there was no crash where the bike was damaged. Plus, nearly all bikes are reduced 20 percent off for the new models coming in... their "offer" was really no offer at all."

"I was washing my bike the other day and noticed a crack under the crown of the fork of my supersix, opposite where the tire spins. I have no idea how this could have happened, as I didn't crash"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prdqBNPhMFk

Yeah, you're safe as hell on a Cannondale because you haven't been hurt yet.

[sms]

On 5/30/2017 4:58 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

<snip>

The bike shop submitted a claim to Cannondale. Cannondale came back with
their decision today and said they would offer me 20 percent off for
crash replacement.

This is how a "lifetime warranty" often ends up. It's really no warranty
at all. They get to decide if the defect was because of a design or
fabrication issue, or if it was due to something that they are not
responsible for. They know that the likelihood of a customer pursuing it
further is unlikely. They probably have some arbitration clause so you
couldn't sue them in small claims court, and the cost of arbitration is
more than the frame is worth.

[John B.]

On Tue, 30 May 2017 07:16:00 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie

Interesting. Given that I can't even find any reliable figures for
numbers of cyclists that ride on a regular basis your figures are
probably as accurate as anything else regarding bicycles :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

I disagree about one of those examples.

A gear changer in the spokes is not a frame defect. It's an
installation/adjustment/abuse error, far outside the frame
maker's responsibility.

It _may_ be the shop's error, then again it may not be.
That's commonly normal user abuse, such as throwing the bike
gear-down in the back of a pickup or some such. One might
argue (without conclusion usually) between mechanic setup
and user error but it's not the frame maker's problem at any
rate.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[jbeattie]

I didn't say that. I said, if I had a bunch of forks that broke, I would stop buying the brand.

With Cannondale, customer service has been great. They warrantied all of my broken frames except one -- a 1986 frame that I wore out twenty-five years later. It basically fell apart, but I still didn't get dropped on my face. I don't know what the Cannondale customer service is like now that the company has been sold, but it was good in years past. I think a lot of it has to do with the local rep and the shop -- and customer honesty. If they screwed with me, I'd jump to Trek or Specialized. I have a Roubaix. My son loves his Emonda -- which may be too light for a carbon questioner like me.


I do question carbon. I'm not a risk taker. I'm on blood thinners because of a ski injury years ago (and a couple nasty pulmonary embolisms). I would prefer not to fall on my head again. If I had forks breaking, I probably would go to steel like you -- and then when I broke one of those, I'd go to a recumbent, which would immediately trigger a suicide pact I have with my best riding buddy. "If I show up on one of those, shoot me." "Me, too." So, if I broke a steel fork, I would die -- of a gun shot wound.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 9:16:30 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped

> With Cannondale, customer service has been great. They warrantied all of my broken frames except one -- a 1986 frame that I wore out twenty-five years later. It basically fell apart, but I still didn't get dropped on my face. I don't know what the Cannondale customer service is like now that the company has been sold, but it was good in years past. I think a lot of it has to do with the local rep and the shop -- and customer honesty. If they screwed with me, I'd jump to Trek or Specialized. I have a Roubaix. My son loves his Emonda -- which may be too light for a carbon questioner like me.
>
>
> I do question carbon. I'm not a risk taker. I'm on blood thinners because of a ski injury years ago (and a couple nasty pulmonary embolisms). I would prefer not to fall on my head again. If I had forks breaking, I probably would go to steel like you -- and then when I broke one of those, I'd go to a recumbent, which would immediately trigger a suicide pact I have with my best riding buddy. "If I show up on one of those, shoot me." "Me, too." So, if I broke a steel fork, I would die -- of a gun shot wound.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

I don't know about Cannondale but I do know that Park Tools changed from their "Lifetime warranty" to if it breaks you're SOL!. At least that was my experience with them with a couple of tools that brke after VERY LITTLE use. Therefore I've moved to tools NOT made by Park Tools.

As far a bicycle service goes, I don't depend on that up here because far too many shops go out of business and then you can't get the service.

A lifetime frame warranty is only as good as the company's willingness to stand behind it.

Cheers

[John B.]

Another question. Have any of your broken bikes just broken? Never
crashed, never dropped the bike, never had anything caught in the
spokes, never had any problems. Just riding along and it suddenly
broke?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I had this with something as stupid as "My Pillow". I was itching all the time so I was afraid that I had gotten bed bugs. (turned out to be old age) I washed the My Pillow as they say you can and after three dryer cycles it still wasn't dry. I put it out in the sun on a hot day all day long. It felt dry do I put it on my bed and the next time I went to change the pillow case it was mildewed.

I called the company and had to argue with them for 20 minutes before they agreed to replace it with their "Lifetime Guarantee".

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I would agree but apparently the derailleur went into the spokes not because of an improper assembly but because the seat stay broke and the chain stay twisted.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Look Jay - the cause of my injury was the IRD fork and it was because of spectacularly bad assembly. The fork had an aluminum fork head and the legs were glues on. While the resin was drying the blades were held in place with a large rivet. The fork I had only was glued on one side and IRD wasn't held responsible because although they sell components world wide, they claimed that they didn't mean for these forks to be sold in America and hadn't advertised them here.

This was a clear case of irresponsible conduct of a company and they couldn't be held to it. And yet responsible companies that do everything possible to hold the highest quality standards are sued out of business all the time because of failures that are totally unpredictable.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I've moved away from Park hand tools a long time ago because most of them are junk. Even their cassette removal tools which should never wear out are made of such poor quality steel that the edges wear off on the first use.

[jbeattie]

What bike had the IRD forks? The bike manufacturer is responsible for the failure of OE forks, as is the LBS. IRD may have a clever jurisdictional argument to avoid suit in a particular personal injury action, but it has a contract with the bike manufacturer who can sue for indemnity. It will get hit eventually as everyone sues upstream.

Good bike manufacturers police their vendors and the insurers for their vendors, although there is not a lot of policing you can do with some of the Chinese insurers. Policing is generally boots on the ground at the factory and testing. Companies that source from China typically have someone minding the manufacturing process.

One-off failures will happen -- its a statistical certainty, and I'm sorry you got injured -- really. It sucks to be on the wrong side of a statistic.

-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Where are you coming from with that? My Look fork broke and no injuries occurred. Look did not offer replacement forks for that model. I bought an IRD fork off of the Internet. Since they are an Italian company they felt no need to entertain American tort laws.

[Doug Landau]

Dude...dude...TomBroDude...

[AMuzi]

On 5/31/2017 1:28 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 11:25:15 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 7:46:33 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 6:16:30 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 4:58:45 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 1:19:49 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 11:20:29 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 10:32:10 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>>>> Note to Tom: stop buying Colnagos.

- snip fork-

> I bought an IRD fork off of the Internet. Since they are an Italian company they felt no need to entertain American tort laws.

IRD Italian?

AFAIK all IRD products are ROC origin and the URL
registration lists as Colma CA.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

My lawyer traced it to an Italian company and it was Italian lawyers that responded. Perhaps since it has been sold but this was 2012.

[jbeattie]

IRD was started in the mid-80s by a couple of guys in Southern Oregon. No Italian connection whatsoever. It is a brand owned by Interloc Design Group, a privately owned company in the Bay Area. AFAIK, all Asian production. The Mosaic forks look like Kinesis forks from ten years ago.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Doug Landau]

How about Hodaka? And what is the "Pacific Basin" ?

[AMuzi]

Hodaka is first rate, competent across a range of products
with excellent consistency and exemplary QC.

Pacific Basin is Colombia to San Diego to Vancouver BC then
Japan, Seoul, Taiwan, Melbourne and all in between.

[John B.]

Strange. You must be buying lower quality pillows, or you lack certain
"house keeping" skills, as my wife of forty some years has been
washing pillows ever since we were married (and probably before) and
not a one has mildewed :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The forks had a large IRD emblazoned upon them. The doesn't sound like IDG to me. Tell you what, I can put you in touch with my lawyer at a large firm and you can tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Perhaps she doesn't put them in bedbug proof covers.

[John B.]

And perhaps we don't have bed bugs in our house. But more seriously
you are supposed to remove the covers and wash them separately.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I thought I made this clear in previous postings - when I was recovering from the concussion all of my skin itched so badly I thought I might have bedbugs. At the same time my vision was growing more and more far-sighted so that I had to wear glasses to see anything up close.

The itching turned out to be an allergy to synthetics but in the meantime I sprayed the mattress and bought new pillows.

One of the symptoms of a seizure is heavy sweating which completely soaks the bedding so I had to put covers on the mattress and pillows to keep them dry. Before I got the cover for the pillow I completely soaked it with a seizure while my medication was still being balanced.

People seem to think a concussion is no big deal - a headache for a little while. Just hope you don't get one. Each seizure destroys more of your memories. Luckily the portion of my brain effected is mostly social so my ability to think isn't impaired. But it could just as easily have turned me into a turnip. The way it is I can no longer visualize numbers. Even using a calculator I mistake which direction to move the decimal point to turn numbers into percentages.

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 9:07:48 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>

> > > > > I bought an IRD fork off of the Internet. Since they are an Italian company they felt no need to entertain American tort laws.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > IRD Italian?
> > > >
> > > > AFAIK all IRD products are ROC origin and the URL
> > > > registration lists as Colma CA.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Andrew Muzi
> > > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > >
> > > My lawyer traced it to an Italian company and it was Italian lawyers that responded. Perhaps since it has been sold but this was 2012.
> >
> > IRD was started in the mid-80s by a couple of guys in Southern Oregon. No Italian connection whatsoever. It is a brand owned by Interloc Design Group, a privately owned company in the Bay Area. AFAIK, all Asian production. The Mosaic forks look like Kinesis forks from ten years ago.
> >
> > -- Jay Beattie.
>
> The forks had a large IRD emblazoned upon them. The doesn't sound like IDG to me. Tell you what, I can put you in touch with my lawyer at a large firm and you can tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'm not sure of the relationship between Interloc Racing Design and Interloc Design Group except for what's on the IRD website, which says the former is a brand owned by the latter. Both are related to Merry Sales. It is likely that IRD is now just a house brand of Merry Sales or that Merry Sales owns IRD/IDG. A phone call would probably clear it up. No Italian connection anywhere. Did your attorney have a phone and an internet connection? See if its too late for a malpractice action.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Doug Landau]

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 3:20:02 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 30 May 2017 10:32:08 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
> <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 10:08:22 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> I don't know if any of this is actually performed. My guess(tm) is
> >> that they do an overall vibration test to look for gross errors. If
> >> something is found, they simply trash the frame because it's cheaper
> >> to do so than to perform difficult corrective repairs and patch work
> >> on a built up frame.
>
> >Our local CF inspection and repair outfit: http://www.ruckuscomp.com/process
> >Scroll down on the page (graphic restoration). Note to Tom: stop buying Colnagos.
> >-- Jay Beattie.
>
> Such repair shops are great for fixing damage to an individual
> bicycle, which can be an economical alternative to buying a new frame
> ($300 to maybe $2,000). However, for a factory production line in
> China, the cost of repair would far exceed the cost to manufacture for
> the frame. That's only the frame because the bicycle hasn't been
> loaded with attachments, accouterments, and bolt-ons quite yet. That
> makes the frame somewhat cheap, making it more economical to throw it
> out instead of repair it.
>
> >> It would be interesting to rent or borrow one of these ultrasonic
> >> inspection instruments, and run through the inventory at an LBS (local
> >> bike shop). If your suspicions and allegations are correct, it should
> >> identify some defects.
>
> If you have time, give the Ruckus Composites people a visit or call.
> Ask if they have any ultrasonic inspection equipment, which model, how
> it's used, etc.
>

What is an accouterment ?

[AMuzi]

geegaws and bric-a-brac:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/accoutrement?s=t

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 14:43:38 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
<doug....@gmail.com> wrote:

>What is an accouterment ?

<http://www.thefreedictionary.com/accouterment>
"An accessory item of equipment or dress."

For bicycling, it's all the bolt-on crap that people hang on their
machines to perform some function that is only marginally relevant to
cycling. However, since the markup is much higher on these items,
they've become an important supplement to the bottom line of the LSB.

It can also mean:
"Outward forms of recognition; trappings"
which might be like leaving the price tag hanging on your CF bicycle
so that gawkers will be impressed by how much you overpaid for it.

Next time you go for a club ride, ask someone "How do you like my new
accouterments"? and see if you get a reaction. Those with military,
advertising, political, or clothing design experience will probably
respond properly. Everyone else will probably say "Say What"?

Hint: Beyond some basic level of transportation, many riders wear
their machines instead of riding them. The distinction is subtle, but
significant.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

I think we were discussing Giant Manufacturing Co Ltd carbon fiber
bicycles, which would also qualify such accouterments as kitsch:
<https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/kitsch>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=kitsch&tbm=isch>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+kitsch&tbm=isch>

There's also retro-kitsch such as Sprocket Man:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=sprocket+man&tbm=isch>

[Sir Ridesalot]

Also icludes such things as front asd rear reflectors, reflective tape and wheel reflectors which by law have to be on every bike sold but which many bicyclists immediately remove as being unsightly. Same for a bell = required by law but most bicyclists would never dream of putting one on their bicycle.

YMMV

Cheers

[John B.]

I believe that most people use mattress covers. Some even use plastic
or waterproof covers.

>People seem to think a concussion is no big deal - a headache for a little while. Just hope you don't get one. Each seizure destroys more of your memories. Luckily the portion of my brain effected is mostly social so my ability to think isn't impaired. But it could just as easily have turned me into a turnip. The way it is I can no longer visualize numbers. Even using a calculator I mistake which direction to move the decimal point to turn numbers into percentages.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 16:50:53 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>Also icludes such things as front asd rear reflectors, reflective
>tape and wheel reflectors which by law have to be on every bike
>sold but which many bicyclists immediately remove as being
>unsightly. Same for a bell = required by law but most bicyclists
>would never dream of putting one on their bicycle.

I helped a friend purchase a bicycle at an LBS (local bike shop). I
was a bit surprised when the shop offered to supply the mandatory
pedal reflectors[1] in a bag or box instead of installing them on the
pedals. I didn't ask if that was to save the LBS the effort of
installing them, or save the buyer the effort of removing them. I
don't recall if it was the same story with the other reflectors.

Interesting that you should mention the bell. I have 3 or 4 bells,
all of which I consider to be junk. Problems vary from self
disassembly while riding to insufficient loudness where needed. I had
some of these on the bicycle I keep at the office and use for errands
around town. The bell has problems dealing with traffic and
construction noises. I think my next bell will be a horn type
loudspeaker driven by a sound effects generator. I want ALL the sound
to project in my direction of travel, and not wasted on anything to
the sides or rear. I don't know if I can design a loudspeaker with
sufficient directionality to do this, but I'll give it try (time
permitting).

>YMMV

YMMV = "your mileage may vary". What phrase does one use in Europe
where kilometers are used instead of miles?

[1] From the California Vehicle Code:
Reflectors: At night bicycles must have the following reflectors:
Visible from the back: red reflector. You may attach a solid or
flashing red rear light in addition to the reflector.
Visible from the front & back: white or yellow reflector on each
pedal or on the bicyclist's shoes or ankles
Visible from the side: 1) white or yellow reflector on the front
half of the bicycle and 2) a red or white reflector on each side of
the back half of the bike. These reflectors are not required if the
bike has reflectorized front and back tires. CVC 21201(d)

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/2/2017 11:50 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> I helped a friend purchase a bicycle at an LBS (local bike shop). I
> was a bit surprised when the shop offered to supply the mandatory
> pedal reflectors[1] in a bag or box instead of installing them on the
> pedals. I didn't ask if that was to save the LBS the effort of
> installing them, or save the buyer the effort of removing them. I
> don't recall if it was the same story with the other reflectors.

I think it's disappointing that avid cyclists are so much against
reflectors, reflective tape etc. True, they're not a replacement for
lights; but they do aid conspicuity, they weigh almost nothing, they
require no power source, they can be inconspicuous. They're valuable if
a cyclist is ever out riding at night.

I think every bike without any reflectors should be forced to have a
label saying "This thing is just a toy."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

But Frank, Reflectors are so un-cool.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 02 Jun 2017 08:50:29 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 16:50:53 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
><i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>>Also icludes such things as front asd rear reflectors, reflective
>>tape and wheel reflectors which by law have to be on every bike
>>sold but which many bicyclists immediately remove as being
>>unsightly. Same for a bell = required by law but most bicyclists
>>would never dream of putting one on their bicycle.
>
>I helped a friend purchase a bicycle at an LBS (local bike shop). I
>was a bit surprised when the shop offered to supply the mandatory
>pedal reflectors[1] in a bag or box instead of installing them on the
>pedals. I didn't ask if that was to save the LBS the effort of
>installing them, or save the buyer the effort of removing them. I
>don't recall if it was the same story with the other reflectors.
>

I bought a pair of Shimano pedals that had removable reflectors which
came separate from the pedals in the box.

As an aside, my LBS sell high end bikes "without pedals" as they
assume that anyone who buys a $3,000 bike will have his own ideas
which peddle is "best".

>Interesting that you should mention the bell. I have 3 or 4 bells,
>all of which I consider to be junk. Problems vary from self
>disassembly while riding to insufficient loudness where needed. I had
>some of these on the bicycle I keep at the office and use for errands
>around town. The bell has problems dealing with traffic and
>construction noises. I think my next bell will be a horn type
>loudspeaker driven by a sound effects generator. I want ALL the sound
>to project in my direction of travel, and not wasted on anything to
>the sides or rear. I don't know if I can design a loudspeaker with
>sufficient directionality to do this, but I'll give it try (time
>permitting).
>

You can buy a "fog Horn" that is powered by some sort of compressed
gas that will, I guarantee, blow a hole in either a crowd of
pedestrian or maybe even 10 wheel trucks :-)
https://www.amazon.com/Air-Horn-misc-wb-Aerosol/dp/B002DG967W

But of course, this would be tremendously un-cool. Far better a dainty
little thing that you can flick with your thumb and goes "tinkle,
tinkle".

>>YMMV
>
>YMMV = "your mileage may vary". What phrase does one use in Europe
>where kilometers are used instead of miles?
>
>[1] From the California Vehicle Code:
>Reflectors: At night bicycles must have the following reflectors:
> Visible from the back: red reflector. You may attach a solid or
>flashing red rear light in addition to the reflector.
> Visible from the front & back: white or yellow reflector on each
>pedal or on the bicyclist's shoes or ankles
> Visible from the side: 1) white or yellow reflector on the front
>half of the bicycle and 2) a red or white reflector on each side of
>the back half of the bike. These reflectors are not required if the
>bike has reflectorized front and back tires. CVC 21201(d)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 10:25:57 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>As an aside, my LBS sell high end bikes "without pedals" as they
>assume that anyone who buys a $3,000 bike will have his own ideas
>which peddle is "best".

I assume you mean pedal, not peddle, unless you buy your pedals from a
peddler. At that price level, buyers would likely be using cleated
shoes making the standard pedal a remove throw away item, like the
reflectors. I noticed the practice at an LBS and asked why none of
the bicycles on the racks had pedals. I was told that it's so they
are short on floor space can pack more bicycles together if they left
off the pedals. Although it was not mentioned, I suspect it was also
to keep some enterprising thief from just jumping onto a bicycle in
the showroom and riding off into the sunset.

>You can buy a "fog Horn" that is powered by some sort of compressed
>gas that will, I guarantee, blow a hole in either a crowd of
>pedestrian or maybe even 10 wheel trucks :-)
> https://www.amazon.com/Air-Horn-misc-wb-Aerosol/dp/B002DG967W

That's rather extreme. I don't want to cause a panic. A bell is
fine, but I want the sound to project forward more than to the sides
and back, where people don't need to hear it. Such products already
exist, but I want to make my own.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=electronic+bicycle+bell&tbm=isch>
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=electronic+bicycle+bell>

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/3/2017 2:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 10:25:57 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> As an aside, my LBS sell high end bikes "without pedals" as they
>> assume that anyone who buys a $3,000 bike will have his own ideas
>> which peddle is "best".
>
> I assume you mean pedal, not peddle, unless you buy your pedals from a
> peddler. At that price level, buyers would likely be using cleated
> shoes making the standard pedal a remove throw away item, like the
> reflectors. I noticed the practice at an LBS and asked why none of
> the bicycles on the racks had pedals. I was told that it's so they
> are short on floor space can pack more bicycles together if they left
> off the pedals.

I might believe that if it applied to handlebars. I can't see how
removing pedals would save much room.

Before "clipless" (also known, weirdly enough, as "clip-in") pedals, all
bikes in shops had pedals installed, and essentially all shoes fit
essentially all pedals.

Now high end bike buyers tend to have their own favorite pedal+shoe
combinations, with many being incompatible. So pedals are left off the
high end bikes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 11:46:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 10:25:57 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>As an aside, my LBS sell high end bikes "without pedals" as they
>>assume that anyone who buys a $3,000 bike will have his own ideas
>>which peddle is "best".
>
>I assume you mean pedal, not peddle, unless you buy your pedals from a

Well yes, but in defense it might be noted that Samuel Clemens once
said "I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of
spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all
dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing".

>peddler. At that price level, buyers would likely be using cleated
>shoes making the standard pedal a remove throw away item, like the
>reflectors. I noticed the practice at an LBS and asked why none of
>the bicycles on the racks had pedals. I was told that it's so they
>are short on floor space can pack more bicycles together if they left
>off the pedals. Although it was not mentioned, I suspect it was also
>to keep some enterprising thief from just jumping onto a bicycle in
>the showroom and riding off into the sunset.
>
>>You can buy a "fog Horn" that is powered by some sort of compressed
>>gas that will, I guarantee, blow a hole in either a crowd of
>>pedestrian or maybe even 10 wheel trucks :-)
>> https://www.amazon.com/Air-Horn-misc-wb-Aerosol/dp/B002DG967W
>
>That's rather extreme. I don't want to cause a panic. A bell is
>fine, but I want the sound to project forward more than to the sides
>and back, where people don't need to hear it. Such products already
>exist, but I want to make my own.
><https://www.google.com/search?q=electronic+bicycle+bell&tbm=isch>
><https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=electronic+bicycle+bell>

The best bike bell I've seen mounted on the fork and the "striker" was
actuated by the spokes so that when you "rang the bell" it went ding,
ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding...

Somewhat similar to
https://oldbike.wordpress.com/1949-nsu-gents-bicycle/
although that one is driven by the tire.

I had a bell on my "utility bike for a while but people don't seem to
pay attentiion to a meek and mild "ding ding" any more so I just say
"EXCUSE ME" in a loud voice which seems to work pretty well.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 3 Jun 2017 21:59:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 6/3/2017 2:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 10:25:57 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> As an aside, my LBS sell high end bikes "without pedals" as they
>>> assume that anyone who buys a $3,000 bike will have his own ideas
>>> which peddle is "best".
>>
>> I assume you mean pedal, not peddle, unless you buy your pedals from a
>> peddler. At that price level, buyers would likely be using cleated
>> shoes making the standard pedal a remove throw away item, like the
>> reflectors. I noticed the practice at an LBS and asked why none of
>> the bicycles on the racks had pedals. I was told that it's so they
>> are short on floor space can pack more bicycles together if they left
>> off the pedals.

>I might believe that if it applied to handlebars. I can't see how
>removing pedals would save much room.

The bicycles were fairly tightly stacked together (and also hanging
from the ceiling). The handlebars partly extend over the adjacent
bicycle's top tube and are slightly staggered to keep alternate
handlebars from hitting each other. Something like this, but on the
floor, not the wall:
<https://cdn.instructables.com/F2J/R9UO/J2JET9K5Q2T/F2JR9UOJ2JET9K5Q2T.RECT2100.jpg>
I'll try to drop in next week and take a few photos. It's been a
while and they may have rearranged the LBS or reduced their inventory.

>Before "clipless" (also known, weirdly enough, as "clip-in") pedals, all
>bikes in shops had pedals installed, and essentially all shoes fit
>essentially all pedals.

They don't fit my slightly oversized steel toe construction boots,
which I often wear to work. One some of my machines, my toes hit the
back end of the front wheel.
<http://www.sears.com/wolverine-men-s-cirrus-safety-toe-hiker-brown/p-067T0171000P>
Platform pedals help, but if I tried to ride a department store
machine wearing these boots, I would have problems.

>Now high end bike buyers tend to have their own favorite pedal+shoe
>combinations, with many being incompatible. So pedals are left off the
>high end bikes.

Yep. Standards are a good thing. Every company should have as many
as possible.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 04 Jun 2017 09:08:20 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>>I assume you mean pedal, not peddle, unless you buy your pedals from a
>
>Well yes, but in defense it might be noted that Samuel Clemens once
>said "I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of
>spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all
>dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing".

I agree. Therefore, I rarely mis-spell my errors the same way twice.
Same with my grammar errors. I do have a proper proofreader, but she
has the weekend off. I have to survive with only my spelling chequer.

>The best bike bell I've seen mounted on the fork and the "striker" was
>actuated by the spokes so that when you "rang the bell" it went ding,
>ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding...

That's mechanically clever, but easily duplicated electronically. I
guess I should add a switch to my electronic bell labeled; off, semi
auto, full auto.

>I had a bell on my "utility bike for a while but people don't seem to
>pay attentiion to a meek and mild "ding ding" any more so I just say
>"EXCUSE ME" in a loud voice which seems to work pretty well.

Exactly one of the problems I'm trying to solve. I was thinking of
simply installing a forward facing parabolic reflector with a
mechanical bell at the focus to reflect as much sound forward as
possible. However, that would be like installing a drogue chute on my
machine. Some manner of horn type loudspeaker should be sufficient.

[Sir Ridesalot]

If the pedals are removed you can hang bicycles close together by hanging one from the front wheel, the next one by the rear wheel, the next one by the front wheels. Removing the pedals helps to keep the bikes from getting scratched and also make lifting them down or up again easier as the pedals aren't there to get snagged on something such as the other bike's wheels or frame.

Cheers

[John B.]

On Sat, 03 Jun 2017 19:46:43 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 04 Jun 2017 09:08:20 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>>I assume you mean pedal, not peddle, unless you buy your pedals from a
>>
>>Well yes, but in defense it might be noted that Samuel Clemens once
>>said "I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of
>>spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all
>>dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing".
>
>I agree. Therefore, I rarely mis-spell my errors the same way twice.
>Same with my grammar errors. I do have a proper proofreader, but she
>has the weekend off. I have to survive with only my spelling chequer.
>
>>The best bike bell I've seen mounted on the fork and the "striker" was
>>actuated by the spokes so that when you "rang the bell" it went ding,
>>ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding...
>
>That's mechanically clever, but easily duplicated electronically. I
>guess I should add a switch to my electronic bell labeled; off, semi
>auto, full auto.
>
>>I had a bell on my "utility bike for a while but people don't seem to
>>pay attentiion to a meek and mild "ding ding" any more so I just say
>>"EXCUSE ME" in a loud voice which seems to work pretty well.
>
>Exactly one of the problems I'm trying to solve. I was thinking of
>simply installing a forward facing parabolic reflector with a
>mechanical bell at the focus to reflect as much sound forward as
>possible. However, that would be like installing a drogue chute on my
>machine. Some manner of horn type loudspeaker should be sufficient.

Well, if you are going to be all electronic there should be no problem
to have a "tinkle, tinkle" setting, a "ding, ding" setting and a "GET
OUT THE F--KING WAY!" setting.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 04 Jun 2017 14:37:28 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Well, if you are going to be all electronic there should be no problem
>to have a "tinkle, tinkle" setting, a "ding, ding" setting and a "GET
>OUT THE F--KING WAY!" setting.

All good ideas but I think some psychology might be better. I think
I'll try synthesizing the sound of an iPhone ringing. That should
stop anyone ahead in their tracks as they look down at their iPhone to
see who's calling. Since they've now stopped moving, I can usually
weave (or zip) around them. If that doesn't work, I'll try the
doppler shifted sound of screeching tires.

[AMuzi]

On 6/3/2017 9:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Jun 2017 09:08:20 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:

-snip bells-

> That's mechanically clever, but easily duplicated electronically. I
> guess I should add a switch to my electronic bell labeled; off, semi
> auto, full auto.

mmmm, selector switch...

[Joerg]

On 2017-06-04 06:50, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Jun 2017 14:37:28 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Well, if you are going to be all electronic there should be no problem
>> to have a "tinkle, tinkle" setting, a "ding, ding" setting and a "GET
>> OUT THE F--KING WAY!" setting.
>
> All good ideas but I think some psychology might be better. I think
> I'll try synthesizing the sound of an iPhone ringing. That should
> stop anyone ahead in their tracks as they look down at their iPhone to
> see who's calling. Since they've now stopped moving, I can usually
> weave (or zip) around them. If that doesn't work, I'll try the
> doppler shifted sound of screeching tires.
>

Electronic is too wimpy. This ought to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGWRB2UNOmI

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Sir Ridesalot]

The roar of a hungry mountain lion?

Cheers

[John B.]

On Sun, 04 Jun 2017 06:50:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 04 Jun 2017 14:37:28 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Well, if you are going to be all electronic there should be no problem
>>to have a "tinkle, tinkle" setting, a "ding, ding" setting and a "GET
>>OUT THE F--KING WAY!" setting.
>
>All good ideas but I think some psychology might be better. I think
>I'll try synthesizing the sound of an iPhone ringing. That should
>stop anyone ahead in their tracks as they look down at their iPhone to
>see who's calling. Since they've now stopped moving, I can usually
>weave (or zip) around them. If that doesn't work, I'll try the
>doppler shifted sound of screeching tires.

It might be an interesting experiment. One could use the sounds of
screams, someone shouting "Fire, Fire", various types of police Sirens
- I like the continental "He-Haw" - or even bombs going off, to see
what worked the best.

I'm not sure about the iPhone sound as I see most of the younger
generation walking about with wires coming out of their ears and their
lips moving. They might not be listening for a phone to ring :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

For a verbal 'clear the road', 'aloha snackbar' would do it.

[Doug Landau]

Fuckit. That video absolutely will not dispense with the 15-second ad, no matter how many times you hit Control-R. Fuck it.

[Joerg]

Youtube has begun to nag more persistently and they make you wait them
out. A really nasty one is an IBM Watson ad that has caused me to
abandon Youtube at times.

I have developed a habit of doing some other chore while watching out of
the corner of an eye, then turning to the screen when the fluff is over.
Often I miss it and then just "spool back" to the beginning. I never
really see the ads consciously so I couldn't even tell you what any one
of them is about or what they wanted to sell.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I have almost stopped looking at youTube entirely except when they have political content I'm trying to make a point of.

[John B.]

On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 12:53:53 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

The problem with Youtube is that it is a movie and can be made to
prove just about anything that the maker wants to prove.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

I would as well but they have a de facto monopoly. If I want to see how
a singletrack looks or maybe watch some white-knuckle kayak ride it
can't be beat.

[Frank Krygowski]

As an example - This was widely believed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y90vnB6gUME

until this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naSZBdJoEbM
came out.

Although Snopes helped, as usual.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

That ain't nottin! I used to fly around in airplans that didn't have
no wings at all :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ashevilliot]

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 11:40:18 AM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

> So until we have tort reform we have little way of knowing just how safe a carbon fiber frame and fork are.<

This sort of goofy hyperbole just makes you look shallowpated.

And I wonder why carbon fiber tubes are so unsafe, now that FAA-certified aircraft are built with them. There are plenty of tube clusters and joints on these Carbon Cubs. You can see a few of them here:
http://cubcrafters.com/
http://cubcrafters.com/carboncub/ss

If you'll look at the wing strut connects at the fuselage, that would be a three-tube joint. See the imprints? And in the rugged bush like the Alaskan outback where these aircraft (Super Cub progeny) land on rocky shores or rough sod fields, these aircraft sustain tremendous stresses.

As an aircraft owner of a tube-and-rag aircraft (Taylorcraft with steel tubes gas-welded at the clusters) and an avid mountain biker, I'm just wondering.

I have done fiberglas and carbon fiber layups. If they are done properly, the tensile and compressive strength is close to 1,000,000 psi. Boeing demonstrated this impressive fact years ago.

Maybe some of these bike manufacturers have trouble with QC.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Look dumbass - if you're not an engineer I suggest you shut the F up. If you don't understand the effects of loadings on construction materials pull your head out of your A and try and learn something before posting any F-ing thing like "shallowpated".

Exactly what are your credentials on materials science?

[Ashevilliot]

Here is another view of the use of carbon fiber layups in the aircraft industry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A2VSg0pFcE

Notice that some titanium is also used in at least one of the Carbon Cubs.

About 15 years ago I participated in a wing-loading test of White Lightning Aircraft wings designed by engineer Hal C. "Nick" Jones of WLAC, Inc., of Walterboro, SC. The wings were loaded with sandbags to 10 G's and did not break. and due to high elastic modulus, barely even sagged. The main spar in each of the two wings is a tapered tubular structure made of radial-wound carbon fiber layups. The spar serves along with the forward compartment of each wing as a tank for 100LL aerogas, total 80 gal.

Most of my STEM training is in chemistry and biology, although I studied physics, calculus, and some organic chemistry in college, and attended aviation maintenance school. I am not an engineer, and certainly not a jack of all trades, although I did learn something about loads, stress risers, fatigue, vacuum-bagging, weave orientation, and other factors which affect the strength and durability of composite structures, including carbon fiber structures. That's the reason why I believe that a carbon fiber bicycle can be safe and durable, and that the reason for catastrophic failures is probably human error in the layups.

[John B.]

I suspect that the difference is that the airplane is designed to be
"strong enough" while the bicycle is designed to be "light enough".

And, no the strength of properly done lay ups is not close to
1,000,000 psi. In fact it you believe that then I would have to say
that your knowledge of composites is sadly lacking.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

This was something I thought would be self-evident. In kit aircraft they use lighter materials NOT to be lighter but to put more strength into the same weight. Weight is nothing more than a side issue.

On bikes we are presently seeing them advertising 12.5 lb all up 54 cm bikes.

Someone published a failure rate test and it showed that all materials failed with one application of 100% maximum rated load. There was a linear line going down with all materials - aluminum and CF failed after application of so many 50% loads but for all loads under 75% steel didn't fail - it had no fatigue failures.

Now emailing Cannondale and Specialized engineers they convinced me that you could make a CF bike so strong that the fatigue life at 50% was effectively longer than the lifetime of an owner. They were not able to convince me that you could have a small enough quality control failure rate.

And it makes you wonder why a Gianni Motta from 40 years ago can still have almost an unlimited lifespan while an older CF _will_ fail eventually.

[Ashevilliot]

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 4:43:31 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 7:17:36 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> > On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 10:34:57 -0700 (PDT), Ashevilliot
> > <wilst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 11:40:18 AM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > >> So until we have tort reform we have little way of knowing just how safe a carbon fiber frame and fork are.<
> > >
> > >This sort of goofy hyperbole just makes you look shallowpated.
> > >
> > >And I wonder why carbon fiber tubes are so unsafe, now that FAA-certified aircraft are built with them. There are plenty of tube clusters and joints on these Carbon Cubs. You can see a few of them here:
> > >http://cubcrafters.com/
> > >http://cubcrafters.com/carboncub/ss
> > >
> > >If you'll look at the wing strut connects at the fuselage, that would be a three-tube joint. See the imprints? And in the rugged bush like the Alaskan outback where these aircraft (Super Cub progeny) land on rocky shores or rough sod fields, these aircraft sustain tremendous stresses.
> > >
> > >As an aircraft owner of a tube-and-rag aircraft (Taylorcraft with steel tubes gas-welded at the clusters) and an avid mountain biker, I'm just wondering.
> > >
> > >I have done fiberglas and carbon fiber layups. If they are done properly, the tensile and compressive strength is close to 1,000,000 psi. Boeing demonstrated this impressive fact years ago.
> > >
> > >Maybe some of these bike manufacturers have trouble with QC.
> > >
> >
> > I suspect that the difference is that the airplane is designed to be
> > "strong enough" while the bicycle is designed to be "light enough".
> >
> > And, no the strength of properly done lay ups is not close to
> > 1,000,000 psi. In fact it you believe that then I would have to say
> > that your knowledge of composites is sadly lacking.
>
> This was something I thought would be self-evident. In kit aircraft they use lighter materials NOT to be lighter

That would be false. "Add lightness" is a motto of the aircraft industry. The Carbon Cub is 300 lbs. lighter than its predecessor, due to the use of lightweight materials like carbon fiber, titanium, and chromoly steel. Wing ribs appear to be aluminum alloy and are said to be lighter than the old Cub ribs from the fifties.

I was mistaken that the Carbon Cub's fuselage is carbon. It is made of lightweight welded steel tubes which are alloys of iron, carbon, chromium, and molybdenum -- chromoly.

but to put more strength into the same weight. Weight is nothing more than a side issue.
>

Not so. The object of the Super Cub is an optimum power-to-weight ratio. You can now see Alaskan Cubs breaking ground after a takeoff roll of a few feet. That could not be done with the old Cub.

Boeing's Dreamliner is 20% lighter than the equivalent aluminum ship. And better strength-to-weight ratio, which permits great passenger and cargo loads, is due to the use of composites like carbon fiber, which is stressed (according to Boeing) to 883 kpsi. Not that far away from tensile stress achievements Boeing verified in its labs in Seattle: more than 1,000 kpsi.

> On bikes we are presently seeing them advertising 12.5 lb all up 54 cm bikes.
>
> Someone published a failure rate test and it showed that all materials failed with one application of 100% maximum rated load. There was a linear line going down with all materials - aluminum and CF failed after application of so many 50% loads but for all loads under 75% steel didn't fail - it had no fatigue failures.
>

Very interesting. I ride a favorite mountain bike make of chromoly. I have carried it on my airplane with the wheels and fork removed.

> Now emailing Cannondale and Specialized engineers they convinced me that you could make a CF bike so strong that the fatigue life at 50% was effectively longer than the lifetime of an owner. They were not able to convince me that you could have a small enough quality control failure rate.
>
> And it makes you wonder why a Gianni Motta from 40 years ago can still have almost an unlimited lifespan while an older CF _will_ fail eventually.

What is the material of the Motta frame?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 9:24:26 AM UTC-7, Ashevilliot wrote:
> On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 4:43:31 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > This was something I thought would be self-evident. In kit aircraft they use lighter materials NOT to be lighter
>
> That would be false. "Add lightness" is a motto of the aircraft industry. The Carbon Cub is 300 lbs. lighter than its predecessor, due to the use of lightweight materials like carbon fiber, titanium, and chromoly steel. Wing ribs appear to be aluminum alloy and are said to be lighter than the old Cub ribs from the fifties.

You have to firstly understand what "side issue" means. Small aircraft are lighter - marginally. They use high performance materials to make aircraft stronger since the major causes of failure is material failure.

> Not so. The object of the Super Cub is an optimum power-to-weight ratio. You can now see Alaskan Cubs breaking ground after a takeoff roll of a few feet. That could not be done with the old Cub.

And the original Cub had something like 65 horsepower and present versions have between double and triple the power.

> Boeing's Dreamliner is 20% lighter than the equivalent aluminum ship. And better strength-to-weight ratio, which permits great passenger and cargo loads, is due to the use of composites like carbon fiber, which is stressed (according to Boeing) to 883 kpsi. Not that far away from tensile stress achievements Boeing verified in its labs in Seattle: more than 1,000 kpsi.

Uh - don't you detect a different mission between a sports aircraft and a commercial airliner?

> What is the material of the Motta frame?

Gianni Motta was a professional road racer that won the Giro in 1980. As all the bikes of that time and those he put his name on after he retired they were steel.