Gatorskins: Joerg Wins!

[jbeattie]

I needed to make a quick tire change this morning (flat, worn out front tire), and I went to throw a wire-bead Gatorskin on a CR18 rim. Goddamn, is this a 650B tire? It wasn't even close. Nonetheless, I did not wrestle with it for an hour or even five minutes. I slapped on an old folding Bontrager sale-table tire and got to work. I'll investigate further tonight. CR18s have shallow rim wells like MA2s, but I've had a Gatorskin on that rim in the past. I wonder if there are manufacturing tolerance problems.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Doug Landau]

On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 10:57:14 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> I needed to make a quick tire change this morning (flat, worn out front tire), and I went to throw a wire-bead Gatorskin on a CR18 rim. Goddamn, is this a 650B tire? It wasn't even close. Nonetheless, I did not wrestle with it for an hour or even five minutes. I slapped on an old folding Bontrager sale-table tire and got to work. I'll investigate further tonight. CR18s have shallow rim wells like MA2s, but I've had a Gatorskin on that rim in the past. I wonder if there are manufacturing tolerance problems.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

I remember 10-15 yrs ago there was a string of really good prices on conti 3000s at Performance. I stocked up and they were lumpier than shit. It was like the wheel needed to be balanced after they were mounted.

[retrog...@gmail.com]

Did you try all the usual tricks for getting the bead over the rim, counsel? Did you push the valve stem up into the tire? Did you try pushing the bead on the opposite side over as far as possible toward the side you were trying to mount, in order to create more clearance to get the bead over the rim? Did you look all around the perimeter of the tire, trying to find places where the tube was caught under the bead? A little silicone spray on the bead, maybe?

Occasionally I've bought tires that were extremely tight, but I've always been able to mount them by using these techniques. I'd much rather have a tight tire than one that is too loose.

Good luck from your fellow pettifogger.

[jbeattie]

I did the basics and didn't spend much time trying. It was so far off that I just grabbed another tire and got going. I'll try again later.

-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 2:20:34 PM UTC-7, retrog...@gmail.com wrote:

The trouble with using "all the basics" is that when you're in a hurry it's ALL to common to pinch the tube.

[Joerg]

Eventually you'll get it on. Push the 2nd bead as far you can, secure it
in that "95% position" with two tire levers, then leave overnight. The
stress seems to stretch it a wee bit. In the morning it'll "only" be
15-20 minutes more. What also helps if you must get it on same day is to
squeeze high-quality tire levers between bead and rim wall right up to
where it crosses over. Then rotate these levers back and forth 10-20
degrees while pushing. Dunk the lever tips in soap before. The levers
will suffer a lot and I broke one from an expensive set.

The feeling in my right thumb and middle finger tips still hasn't come
back after the last one a couple months ago but who knows, those could
also be carpal tunnel symptoms. It just happened right after mounting my
last Gatorksin. And that will be my last Gatorskin. Sad because they
gave me 2500mi per rear tire. Unless the side wall failed beforehand.

I switched to CST Conquistare. Still under 400mi so I can't say how many
miles they will last. The side walls sure are a lot better than on the
Gatorskin. I have done my usual rides which include rough gravel and
some offroad sections, zero visible damage. By that time Gatorskins
already had li'l flaps, skin tags, frayed fibers and so on.

If the CST lasts only 1500-2000mi it'll be ok as long as the price is
low enough for such a short life. I got it for $15. Main thing is, I can
get it onto the rim in minutes.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Sir Ridesalot]

I refuse to use a tire that's that hard to mount. What do you do if you get a flat out on the road? Do you camp overnight so that the tire can stretch again after repairing or replacing the tube?

Cheers

[Joerg]

Well, that's was I am doing now :-)

I had a stack of them that needed to be used up. Now I switched brands.


> ... What do you do if
> you get a flat out on the road? ...


I don't. I use tubes with 0.120" wall thickness plus lined tires. The
only flats I got were side wall blow-outs and there ain't much you can
do when there is a big gaping hole. Other than walking.

Sometimes walking can be fun. On Sunday I stepped on it a bit hard and
... POCK ... spoke went. Because I had to re-dish the wheel this one
could not be tensioned out via other spokes so I hoofed it home. No wind
noise, lots of time to look at farm animals, maybe pet some of them,
bird chirping that I never hear on the bike, nice wild flowers to look
at that I usually blow by at high speed. And I got to watch a hawk do
aerobatics. Then I found an aimlessly wandering dog and brought it home.
Without the broken spoke she might have gotten lost. Some day when I am
fully retired I want to hike the whole singletrack to Placerville
instead of using the MTB. It would be an all day affair.


> ... Do you camp overnight so that the

> tire can stretch again after repairing or replacing the tube?
>

Not a bad idea. Provided there is sufficient beer in the panniers or a
brewpub within a reasonable walk.

[jbeattie]

Exactly. I'll just use the tire as a rear, which is built on a Velocity Touring Disc rim -- a simple, discontinued rim with a deeper well that works with any and all tires. The CR18 is an el-cheapo rim I bought as a quick replacement for my front dyno wheel. It's an '80s design throw-back.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Gregory Sutter]

On 2017-03-25, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>
> Some day when I am fully retired I want to hike the whole
> singletrack to Placerville instead of using the MTB. It would be an
> all day affair.

Do it on a weekend, or take a vacation day! No need to wait for
the indefinite future.

--
Gregory S. Sutter Mostly Harmless
mailto:gsu...@zer0.org
http://zer0.org/~gsutter/

[Joerg]

On 2017-03-25 16:47, Gregory Sutter wrote:
> On 2017-03-25, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>
>> Some day when I am fully retired I want to hike the whole
>> singletrack to Placerville instead of using the MTB. It would be an
>> all day affair.
>
> Do it on a weekend, or take a vacation day! No need to wait for
> the indefinite future.
>

Sunday is church which I won't miss and Saturday is "honey do list day".
But it won't be long because I am self-employed and already beginning to
throttle down. In part to be able to ride more. SWMBO said that if I
give her one day a week for chores I could vanish a whole weekday. Deal :-)

The other benefit of an all day affair is that I could ride 100mi or
more and thus get to farther out places or do the Rubicon trail on the MTB.

[Joerg]

You got a front dyno wheel in the US? Do you have a link? The ones under
$100 I've seen so far had rims that were too wide.

[jbeattie]

SMS could send you a pile of links. I built mine -- first with an older beater MA3 which developed some spoke hole cracking not withstanding my diligent tensioning to 100-110kgf (within factory spec). I replaced it with a cheap and available CR18 from Universal. The rim also fit my needs in terms of ERD. I would have purchased a disc specific rim with a deeper section, but it would have meant buying new spokes.

BTW, I was rummaging around in my spoke box and found a bunch of 310mm from a 4X Weinmann Concave wheel I built in the late '70s. Those are totally useless now. I could use them for shish kebab skewers. I wish I had a Phil cutting/threading tool, but I could never recoup the cost.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Mark J.]

IIRC, I had a local shop, who owned the Phil tool, re-cut some spokes I
had. I was surprised that they were willing to do it for less than the
cost of new spokes, but they were. I really hate throwing functioning
items away.

Mark J.

[Frank Krygowski]

I do too. But I'm sure that when I die, my heirs will do it for me.
That includes hundreds of spokes.

For our bike club, I've proposed a Saddle Swap Day. Most cyclists I
know seem to have several saddles that didn't work for them, but might
work for others.

But I think a Spoke Swap Day would generate too little interest.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

When it comes to wheels I am decadent and would like to buy a complete
wheel. I know I will have to increase the spoke tension as usual but
that's just 1/4 to 1/2 turn on each nipple. Spoking up and truing a
whole wheel is just not my thing.

> BTW, I was rummaging around in my spoke box and found a bunch of
> 310mm from a 4X Weinmann Concave wheel I built in the late '70s.
> Those are totally useless now. I could use them for shish kebab
> skewers. I wish I had a Phil cutting/threading tool, but I could
> never recoup the cost.
>

I wonder how that could work. On my road bike the spokes have 2.0mm
diameter and the threaded ends are thicker at 2.2mm.

On the rear I'd like to have something in the neigborhood of 3mm spoke
diameter. Or more.

[John B.]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 12:58:43 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

I believe that the thickest "standard" spoke is a 13 (US/British)
gauge which is 2.3mm in diameter and I believe that most sports bikes
use double butted spokes, as you have. But it might be that "single
butted" spokes, i.e., 2.3mm the whole length are used on touring
bikes. I see DT Swiss straight 13 gauge spokes listed on e-bay but I
don't see them on DT Swiss's web pages although they do advertises a
single butted "Sapim Strong Single Butted Spoke" that measures 2.3mm
at the hub end and 2.0 at the threaded end. I've also seen galvanized
"electric bike" 13 gauge spokes advertised on e-bay.

On the other hand Peter White ( www.peterwhitecycles.com ) will give a
lifetime guarantee on any wheel that he builds "according to his
recommendation". As he has been doing this for something like 30 years
I assume that he knows what he is doing.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

I've suggested before that you use motorcycle gauge spokes.

And tires.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

He should just get a motorcycle and convert it to pedal power.

Cheers

[Joerg]

You can buy complete wheels with 12 gauge spokes, like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Master-Weinmann-Quick-Release/dp/B006FCHTZQ

But first I have to find out two things. The axle dimension (beats me
why they don't state that in the specs) and I also have to somehow get
out my BB because that's now shot as well. And before doing that I've
got to fix the rear end of my MTB so I will not be sans bike. Now I
understand why some folks have 5-6 bikes :-)

> On the other hand Peter White ( www.peterwhitecycles.com ) will give a
> lifetime guarantee on any wheel that he builds "according to his
> recommendation". As he has been doing this for something like 30 years
> I assume that he knows what he is doing.
>

He probably doesn't know where I am riding and with what sort of load :-)

I even broke spokes on bikes assembled and tuned by professionals. My
main concern is Murphy's law because it states that if there is a spoke
failure that is impossible to trim out well enough this will be at the
farthest point from home.

[John B.]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:36:11 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

If you are worried about breaking drive side spokes in remote places
there are tools made to repair the problem. Of course, one has to
actually purchase and carry these tools for them to be of any use.

An alternate is the flexible spokes made from the same material as
bullet proof vests that can be installed without removing the
cassette.

Peter White goes on at some length about bicycle wheels and riders,
but essentially he says:

"If wheels are properly built, they will need little if any truing
ever. The rim or hub should fail before the spokes. My guarantee
covers spoke breakage and truing. If you buy a wheel from me that I
recommend for you, and a spoke ever breaks that hasn't been obviously
impacted and damaged by jamming the chain between the cassette cogs
and the spokes or getting a foreign object caught in the spokes, I
will replace that spoke free of charge, while you wait. If that wheel
ever needs truing, I will true it while you wait, free of charge."

Note the part that says "If you buy a wheel from me that I recommend
for you".

Since he has been in business for about 30 years it seems likely that
he stands behind his guarantee.

Oh, yes. I found a source of 12 gauge spokes. It seems that Huffy
sells them. See:
http://www.huskybicycles.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=hb&Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=12G

But a quick look at the Internet finds quite a number of sites that
talk about loaded touring, in one case the writer refers to 12,000
miles of loaded touring on a set of wheels. In fact he talks about the
hub bearing wearing out first.

It is obvious that people are out there doing it and wheels are being
made for such use.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

Well, I used ordinary 1.8/2.0mm spokes on my tandem which routinely saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male friend). It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I built them, and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride the tandem on super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain lions.

-- Jay Beattie

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/28/2017 10:44 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:36:11 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>> I even broke spokes on bikes assembled and tuned by professionals. My
>> main concern is Murphy's law because it states that if there is a spoke
>> failure that is impossible to trim out well enough this will be at the
>> farthest point from home.
>
> If you are worried about breaking drive side spokes in remote places
> there are tools made to repair the problem. Of course, one has to
> actually purchase and carry these tools for them to be of any use.

I can't imagine Joerg carrying the spare and the tool. He's the guy who
doesn't carry a chain tool despite many broken chains, which he has
chosen to repair using rocks and nails.

Broken spoke in the outback? I'm sure there's always a barbed wire
fence somewhere nearby. He can just use a rock to grind out a suitable
length of fence wire, then twist it to splice it with the remains of the
original spoke. He'll be on his way in not time at all - just a few hours.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 7:44:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:36:11 -0700, Joerg
>> <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-03-27 19:20, John B. wrote:

[...]

A wee problem would be that the shipping back and forth is surely not
included and would eat a lot of money. Not everyone in the country lives
where Peter White does.

Other than that I'd probably be back numerous times.

>> Note the part that says "If you buy a wheel from me that I
>> recommend for you".
>>

That is what I did when I bought this road bike. From a pro dealer who
first asked me about my riding style and the typical turf. Then he said
"Oh, in your case the usual fare won't do", took wider rims and thicker
spokes and built the wheels.

>> Since he has been in business for about 30 years it seems likely
>> that he stands behind his guarantee.
>>
>> Oh, yes. I found a source of 12 gauge spokes. It seems that Huffy
>> sells them. See:
>> http://www.huskybicycles.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=hb&Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=12G
>>
>>
>>
But a quick look at the Internet finds quite a number of sites that
>> talk about loaded touring, in one case the writer refers to 12,000
>> miles of loaded touring on a set of wheels. In fact he talks about
>> the hub bearing wearing out first.
>>
>> It is obvious that people are out there doing it and wheels are
>> being made for such use.
>
> Well, I used ordinary 1.8/2.0mm spokes on my tandem which routinely

Hey, finally someone understand the word "routinely" :-)

> saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male friend).
> It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I built them,
> and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride the tandem on
> super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain lions.
>

It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take sections
of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack even with the
road bike.

[jbeattie]

Some of my inner-city trails are now just running streams over rock, even the mud has been washed off with all the rain. This is more of a tire issue than a spoke issue, though. My wheels are doing fine.

At the end of the day, even if you wanted to go with thick spokes, I don't know how you would get 12G spokes through the spoke holes in an ordinary road hub flange.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2017-03-29 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 9:55:52 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

>>> saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male
>>> friend). It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I
>>> built them, and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride
>>> the tandem on super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain
>>> lions.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take
>> sections of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack
>> even with the road bike.
>
> Some of my inner-city trails are now just running streams over rock,
> even the mud has been washed off with all the rain. This is more of
> a tire issue than a spoke issue, though. My wheels are doing fine.
>

I have a steel frame road bike, weigh around 220lbs myself and typically
carry a load. Also lots of hills and steep uphill intersections where I
have to stop and then often step on it to clear traffic. That and
offroad is where the spokes go kaputt. This is a typical unpaved road in
our area:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chapparal1.JPG

As for tires the only challenge I had was with the inadequate side walls
of Gatorskins. Lost too many prematurely. Now trying CST Conquistare
and, knock on wood, after about 350mi absolutely no visible effects, not
even chafing. Gatorskins looked worn in the side walls by that time,
often fiber strands were already flappping in the wind. If the CST tires
give me 1500mi or more I'll have found my future tire.

It was similar on the 29" MTB, side walls failing. Until I found that
Asian tire where cheaper and to my surprise no more side wall blow-outs.
Except for one violent burst where a whole chunk of tire flew off but
that might have been a manufacturing defect.

> At the end of the day, even if you wanted to go with thick spokes, I
> don't know how you would get 12G spokes through the spoke holes in an
> ordinary road hub flange.
>

That is one of the many reasons why I'd buy a complete wheel where
someone has done so already :-)

If not I'd drill, countersink, hone and polish. No big deal. The inside
is a bit tough but for the decadent with money they sell angle grinding
attachments.

[Frank Krygowski]

That's not uncommon. To get to the house of one of my best friends, I
usually shortcut through our forest preserve. Gravel road, single track
trail through the forest edge and then through a grassy meadow, drop
down off a curb and ride on. No problem.

Jobst was famous for riding his road bike where most mountain bikers
feared to go. Photos are online.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2017-03-29 13:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/29/2017 12:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male friend).
>>> It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I built them,
>>> and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride the tandem on
>>> super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain lions.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take sections
>> of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack even with the
>> road bike.
>
> That's not uncommon. To get to the house of one of my best friends, I
> usually shortcut through our forest preserve. Gravel road, single track
> trail through the forest edge and then through a grassy meadow, drop
> down off a curb and ride on. No problem.
>
> Jobst was famous for riding his road bike where most mountain bikers
> feared to go. Photos are online.
>

So did I, almost since the training wheels had come off. This is why I
always kept a large stash of new spokes. They broke all the time. While
at university all I could afford for commuting were department road
bikes and anything more would have been stolen anyhow. Each lasted about
one year and afterwards was totally finished. Not a big deal because I
could buy another used one for around $30.

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike and that's
was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle but the tens of lbs
riding along in back won't.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

>
> As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike and that's
> was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle but the tens of lbs
> riding along in back won't.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Funny thing is that many people TOUR with HEAVY LOADS on dirt roads at least as bad as your 'Chapparal' image yet don't have problems with busted sopkes or busted wheels.

Also, just drilling out a normal hub to take those large diameter spokes you talk about, will most likely cause the hub flange to fail. But then again that'd give you something else to complain about.

Trade in the bicycle for a motorcycle and get someone to afix a pedal drive to it to cure all your bicycle riding woes.

Cheers

[Joerg]

On 2017-03-29 16:42, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> Snipped
>>
>> As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike and
>> that's was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle but the
>> tens of lbs riding along in back won't.
>>
>> -- Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> Funny thing is that many people TOUR with HEAVY LOADS on dirt roads
> at least as bad as your 'Chapparal' image yet don't have problems
> with busted sopkes or busted wheels.
>

My experience is different. I have participated in many tours with tents
and all that. Broken spokes were common among pretty much all riders.

> Also, just drilling out a normal hub to take those large diameter
> spokes you talk about, will most likely cause the hub flange to fail.
> But then again that'd give you something else to complain about.
>

You have to pick one with enough meat on there and not some weight
weenie version.

> Trade in the bicycle for a motorcycle and get someone to afix a pedal
> drive to it to cure all your bicycle riding woes.
>

Funny thing is that the MTB wheels hold up rather well. No busted spokes
there yet and that bike gets used hard. It took me a while to find
decvent tires but I've got those now.

Now, about that bent shock mount ...

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 09:55:56 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

To be frank your argument seems illogical, at best.

As I wrote, one writer described a rear wheel that had lasted 12,000
miles, until the rear hub bearings had worn out. Why, even writers
right here talk about riding with 400 lbs on the bike with no
problems.

As for dirt roads. The first to ride a bicycle across the United
States was in 1884 and it took from 22 April until 4 Aug.... no
reported spoke problems. After reaching Boston the decision was made
to continue riding and it was reported that upon reaching
Constantinople he refitted with spare spokes, tires and other parts
(and bought a better pistol) before continuing.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

A wise purchase:
http://www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/guns/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:44:59 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2017-03-29 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 9:55:52 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>
>>>> saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male
>>>> friend). It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I
>>>> built them, and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride
>>>> the tandem on super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain
>>>> lions.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take
>>> sections of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack
>>> even with the road bike.
>>
>> Some of my inner-city trails are now just running streams over rock,
>> even the mud has been washed off with all the rain. This is more of
>> a tire issue than a spoke issue, though. My wheels are doing fine.
>>
>
>I have a steel frame road bike, weigh around 220lbs myself and typically
>carry a load. Also lots of hills and steep uphill intersections where I
>have to stop and then often step on it to clear traffic. That and
>offroad is where the spokes go kaputt. This is a typical unpaved road in
>our area:
>
>http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chapparal1.JPG
>

Given that I have ridden with no wheel failure on road at least as bad
as you portray I can only assume that your spoke breakage is due to
something other than the road.

But you might want to read
http://www.cyclingabout.com/review-rigida-andra-30-rim/
which describes the rims and wheels that the writer states as
"Nothing has proven to be as strong as the Ryde Andra 30".

I also came across some wheels that are described as "The heavier
steel spokes prevents them from breaking. The indented spoke nuts into
the rim upset also help protect the tube from puncture. Solid Steel
Rim with 12 Gauge Spokes - Upset Reinforced Rim with spoke heads
recessed includes rear brake arm and mounting bracket. 26" X 2.125" 12
Gauge 36H 1.4T that matches 26" 2,125" tire Spoke: 12 Gauge 257mm with
steel nipple Rear Coaster Hub 3/8" 12 Gauge 36 H 110 W 140mm Free
wheel 18T with flange nut."
https://motoredbikes.com/threads/extra-heavy-duty-motorized-bicycle-wheels.45512/

It appears that the equipment is out there and for sale. Which would
seem to make your problems self-inflected as you are simply not buying
the correct equipment to suit your riding style..
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:23:44 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

You talk of Tens of pounds and Jay talks of hundreds of pounds but
your wheels break and his do not?

Strange, isn't it?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 5:15:13 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-03-29 16:42, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> > Snipped
> >>
> >> As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike and
> >> that's was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle but the
> >> tens of lbs riding along in back won't.
> >>
> >> -- Regards, Joerg
> >>
> >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> >
> > Funny thing is that many people TOUR with HEAVY LOADS on dirt roads
> > at least as bad as your 'Chapparal' image yet don't have problems
> > with busted sopkes or busted wheels.
> >
>
> My experience is different. I have participated in many tours with tents
> and all that. Broken spokes were common among pretty much all riders.

You and your cohorts had shitty wheels. You should not be breaking spokes on well-built touring wheels, meaning >36 spoke wheel with ordinary 2.0 spokes -- particularly not a 120mm or 126mm retro-wheel. Before DT, there were a lot of shitty spokes in the world. Alpine and Union spokes broke a lot, but modern spokes not so much, and they usually fail from fatigue and not over-load. If you're talking about a tour in the '60s or early'70s, I could understand all the broken spokes. Not in the 2000s.

>
> > Also, just drilling out a normal hub to take those large diameter
> > spokes you talk about, will most likely cause the hub flange to fail.
> > But then again that'd give you something else to complain about.
> >
>
> You have to pick one with enough meat on there and not some weight
> weenie version.

I've ripped flanges off Phil and Shimano hubs that are not whimpy, and that was without drilling. I would get a purpose-built hub if I were going to use 12g spokes.

>
>
> > Trade in the bicycle for a motorcycle and get someone to afix a pedal
> > drive to it to cure all your bicycle riding woes.
> >
>
> Funny thing is that the MTB wheels hold up rather well. No busted spokes
> there yet and that bike gets used hard. It took me a while to find
> decvent tires but I've got those now.
>
> Now, about that bent shock mount ...
>

You should be able to get equally strong road wheels without going to extremes. When I destroy a wheel, its a ruined rim. I only break spokes (when I do break spokes) because of using old parts. All my wheels are built with used spokes -- some from the '70s, and if you don't keep track of spoke orientation from one wheel to the next, you can end up resetting the bend and breaking them at the head. At least one of my flange failures was due to changing spoke patterns and getting spoke dents on both sides of the same hole -- or at least that is my diagnosis.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/29/2017 8:15 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-03-29 16:42, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>> Snipped
>>>
>>> As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike and
>>> that's was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle but the
>>> tens of lbs riding along in back won't.
>>>
>>> -- Regards, Joerg
>>>
>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>
>> Funny thing is that many people TOUR with HEAVY LOADS on dirt roads
>> at least as bad as your 'Chapparal' image yet don't have problems
>> with busted sopkes or busted wheels.
>>
>
> My experience is different. I have participated in many tours with tents
> and all that. Broken spokes were common among pretty much all riders.

Huh. We made it 4000 miles across America, including the C&O Canal
Towpath, with full panniers, tents, sleeping bags, stove, food, etc. and
no wheel problems.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:15:18 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Well, why not modify your rode bike to take the 26 inch wheels. As you
mentioned (I think) a 1 inch steerer tube it is likely a steel frame
and the addition of brake bosses which you could use for either Vee or
Canti brakes is a minor project. If one were careful and protected the
stays and fork tubes with wet rags I believe a very minimum of
re-painting would be required. Or if you were really into brakes you
could convert the bike to disks, but with a bit more extensive paint
work :-)

Your problems are not insurmountable.

>Now, about that bent shock mount ...
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

He set off from California with an "English Bulldog" (pistol) and in
Constantinople upgraded to a Smith & Wesson :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

I broke one spoke riding across the US. I don't know why. My girlfriend broke none, and I built all the wheels. 36 fresh 2.0 DT on Phil hubs and Super Champion Mod. 58s. I tied and soldered the rears. I did the same with my tandem rear, and Jobst gave me a bunch of shit -- so I quit tying and soldering and still have a big coil of NSF silver-bearing solder for use on SS that polished up real purdy and made shiny ties. I'm keeping it in case I need to do an emergency repair on food machinery.

Trip down memory lane (cue dreamy harp music). Did you visit the Cookie Lady in Afton, Va.? https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?doc_id=1431 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_Curry My picture is in the Cookie House Registry, but I'm not going to tell you what month because I look like a dope.

My son looked at all the pictures from the '70s and '80s and commented that people back then just looked happier and less serious. It was true. We were all riding around in t-shirts and gym shorts, although I was ahead of the curve and had some Bikecology touring shorts (shorts with a terry cloth crotch). Beta Bikers rocked -- super stiff. It was my first tour with a helmet because I was trying to help Skidlid subjugate the world. Heil Big Helmet! I rode one part of route with a freshly-minted Lutheran minister and his wife who bought their bikes about two weeks before the trip. They just wanted an adventure. They also had no broken spokes. -- but something much worse. Saddle sores.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Duane]

On 30/03/2017 10:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 9:01:23 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/29/2017 8:15 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-03-29 16:42, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>>> Snipped
>>>>>
>>>>> As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike and
>>>>> that's was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle but the
>>>>> tens of lbs riding along in back won't.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Regards, Joerg
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>>>
>>>> Funny thing is that many people TOUR with HEAVY LOADS on dirt roads
>>>> at least as bad as your 'Chapparal' image yet don't have problems
>>>> with busted sopkes or busted wheels.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My experience is different. I have participated in many tours with tents
>>> and all that. Broken spokes were common among pretty much all riders.
>>
>> Huh. We made it 4000 miles across America, including the C&O Canal
>> Towpath, with full panniers, tents, sleeping bags, stove, food, etc. and
>> no wheel problems.
>
> I broke one spoke riding across the US. I don't know why. My girlfriend broke none, and I built all the wheels. 36 fresh 2.0 DT on Phil hubs and Super Champion Mod. 58s. I tied and soldered the rears. I did the same with my tandem rear, and Jobst gave me a bunch of shit -- so I quit tying and soldering and still have a big coil of NSF silver-bearing solder for use on SS that polished up real purdy and made shiny ties. I'm keeping it in case I need to do an emergency repair on food machinery.
>

I did a lot of touring with my Bianchi Volpe and its stock Arroyo wheels
and never broke a spoke. Not one. Not once in 20 years. I'm talking
about tents and sleeping bags and stuff. But this was a touring bike.
Not a mountain lion hunting bike for beer delivery guys on single track.

<snip>

[David Scheidt]

jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:

:-- so I quit tying and soldering and still have a big coil of NSF

:silver-bearing solder for use on SS that polished up real purdy and made
:shiny ties. I'm keeping it in case I need to do an emergency repair on
:food machinery.

Works well for soldering the ends of cables.







--
sig 26

[Joerg]

Thanks, bookmarked. That looks like a fine rim.

> I also came across some wheels that are described as "The heavier
> steel spokes prevents them from breaking. The indented spoke nuts into
> the rim upset also help protect the tube from puncture. Solid Steel
> Rim with 12 Gauge Spokes - Upset Reinforced Rim with spoke heads
> recessed includes rear brake arm and mounting bracket. 26" X 2.125" 12
> Gauge 36H 1.4T that matches 26" 2,125" tire Spoke: 12 Gauge 257mm with
> steel nipple Rear Coaster Hub 3/8" 12 Gauge 36 H 110 W 140mm Free
> wheel 18T with flange nut."
> https://motoredbikes.com/threads/extra-heavy-duty-motorized-bicycle-wheels.45512/
>

My next wheel will have 12 gauga spokes again for sure. Or thicker if
possible.

> It appears that the equipment is out there and for sale. Which would
> seem to make your problems self-inflected as you are simply not buying
> the correct equipment to suit your riding style..

I have thick spokes and good rims right now. However, spokes keep going
every now and then, on the rear wheel. The "self-infliction" comes from
the fact that I often use my bikes as ... <gasp> ... utility vehicles.
Bringing heavy packages to Fedex when I couldn't make the pickup cut-off
time, schlepping parts from the valley up here, etc. This includes
sections where chugging uphill in low gear is required, almost standing
in the pedals.

[Joerg]

On 2017-03-29 18:18, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 5:15:13 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-03-29 16:42, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>> Snipped
>>>>
>>>> As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike
>>>> and that's was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle
>>>> but the tens of lbs riding along in back won't.
>>>>
>>>> -- Regards, Joerg
>>>>
>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>>
>>> Funny thing is that many people TOUR with HEAVY LOADS on dirt
>>> roads at least as bad as your 'Chapparal' image yet don't have
>>> problems with busted sopkes or busted wheels.
>>>
>>
>> My experience is different. I have participated in many tours with
>> tents and all that. Broken spokes were common among pretty much all
>> riders.
>
> You and your cohorts had shitty wheels. You should not be breaking
> spokes on well-built touring wheels, meaning >36 spoke wheel with
> ordinary 2.0 spokes -- particularly not a 120mm or 126mm retro-wheel.
> Before DT, there were a lot of shitty spokes in the world. Alpine
> and Union spokes broke a lot, but modern spokes not so much, and they
> usually fail from fatigue and not over-load. If you're talking about
> a tour in the '60s or early'70s, I could understand all the broken
> spokes. Not in the 2000s.
>

Most of those tours were in the 80's. Nice bikes and many (like mine)
built by pro bike shops. The guys who also take care of racing teams.

>>
>>> Also, just drilling out a normal hub to take those large
>>> diameter spokes you talk about, will most likely cause the hub
>>> flange to fail. But then again that'd give you something else to
>>> complain about.
>>>
>>
>> You have to pick one with enough meat on there and not some weight
>> weenie version.
>
> I've ripped flanges off Phil and Shimano hubs that are not whimpy,
> and that was without drilling. I would get a purpose-built hub if I
> were going to use 12g spokes.

Or extra rings bolted on and made by a machine shop. As long as weight
does not matter and for me it never did.

>>
>>> Trade in the bicycle for a motorcycle and get someone to afix a
>>> pedal drive to it to cure all your bicycle riding woes.
>>>
>>
>> Funny thing is that the MTB wheels hold up rather well. No busted
>> spokes there yet and that bike gets used hard. It took me a while
>> to find decvent tires but I've got those now.
>>
>> Now, about that bent shock mount ...
>>
> You should be able to get equally strong road wheels without going to
> extremes. When I destroy a wheel, its a ruined rim. I only break
> spokes (when I do break spokes) because of using old parts. All my
> wheels are built with used spokes -- some from the '70s, and if you
> don't keep track of spoke orientation from one wheel to the next, you
> can end up resetting the bend and breaking them at the head. At
> least one of my flange failures was due to changing spoke patterns
> and getting spoke dents on both sides of the same hole -- or at least
> that is my diagnosis.
>

I always used new spokes to replace broken ones. No broken flanges or
rims but lots of crunched freehubs (pawl damage, bearing damage and
such) and BBs. As a kid I have broken rims but that was because I rode a
lot on motocross tracks during times when MTBs did not exist.

[Joerg]

On 2017-03-29 23:59, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:15:18 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-03-29 16:42, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> Trade in the bicycle for a motorcycle and get someone to afix a pedal
>>> drive to it to cure all your bicycle riding woes.
>>>
>>
>> Funny thing is that the MTB wheels hold up rather well. No busted spokes
>> there yet and that bike gets used hard. It took me a while to find
>> decvent tires but I've got those now.
>>
>
> Well, why not modify your rode bike to take the 26 inch wheels. As you
> mentioned (I think) a 1 inch steerer tube it is likely a steel frame
> and the addition of brake bosses which you could use for either Vee or
> Canti brakes is a minor project. If one were careful and protected the
> stays and fork tubes with wet rags I believe a very minimum of
> re-painting would be required. Or if you were really into brakes you
> could convert the bike to disks, but with a bit more extensive paint
> work :-)
>
> Your problems are not insurmountable.
>

They aren't but there comes a point where the effort is too much,
especially for an electronics guy with limited tools and skills for
mechanical work.

[Joerg]

Hundreds of lbs of cargo?


> Strange, isn't it?


No, could be different turf. Just like the guys on the Rubicon break all
sorts of stuff on their SUVs and on mine nothing never broke in 20 years
despite overloaded trips on rough dirt roads. I wish Mitsubishi would
make bicycles of similar sturdiness.

[AMuzi]

That would be Araya CT7 rims probably

[Duane]

Yep, thanks for the correction.
Sturdy wheels if I'm to understand that spokes break a lot but didn't
stay true like my HEDs. <g>

[Sir Ridesalot]

I wonder just how many spokes the Vietnamese broke on those bicycles they used to haul vast quantities of stuff on the Ho Chi Minh Trail? Or isthat trail not as rough as yours?

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/30/2017 10:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> Trip down memory lane (cue dreamy harp music). Did you visit the Cookie Lady in Afton, Va.? https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?doc_id=1431 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_Curry My picture is in the Cookie House Registry, but I'm not going to tell you what month because I look like a dope.

No, our route didn't go anywhere near Afton VA. We did our own route
from the Delaware coast, west to northern Ohio. We used some of
Adventure Cycling's Northern Tier route, then made our own way across
Iowa, then mostly followed Adventure Cycling's brand new Lewis & Clark
route to the Pacific.

Those were days before GPS (for us, anyway), smart phones and emails via
thumbs. I tried to stop in libraries every week or so to email our
various friends. If anyone's curious, those emails are online at
http://bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/ALittleSummerRide.htm

> My son looked at all the pictures from the '70s and '80s and commented that people back then just looked happier and less serious. It was true.

Well for one thing, in the '70s and '80s, there hadn't been decades
worth of "Danger! Danger!" warnings.

> We were all riding around in t-shirts and gym shorts, although I was ahead of the curve and had some Bikecology touring shorts (shorts with a terry cloth crotch). Beta Bikers rocked -- super stiff. It was my first tour with a helmet because I was trying to help Skidlid subjugate the world.

Ours was 2003. After mostly wearing a helmet for many years, I'd given
it up for almost all except club rides. I decided to take mine along on
that tour "just in case" but ended up riding mostly without it. It
bothered me especially in the heat, when it saved up my sweat and dumped
it into my eyes. Somehow, riding blind seemed - dare I say it? - dangerous!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

When it got rough they usually pushed it:

http://263i3m2dw9nnf6zqv39ktpr1.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/hn_VIEP-120800-BIKE-01_1200x480.jpg

They also had among the first fat bikes:

https://i2.wp.com/peteralanlloyd.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Peter-alan-lloyd-BACK-novel-vietnam-war-backpackers-in-danger-in-jungle-laos-missing-US-POWs-MIAs-life-on-ho-chi-minh-trail-eyewitness-hardships-NVA-dangers-on-the-Trail-45.jpg?w=1024

Then they changed to other kinds of cycles:

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/photo/motor-cyclist-transporting-pigs-for-sale-on-high-res-stock-photography/182689829

Have you taken a closer look at classical Asian bicycles? The Bayer
Corporation (the guys that came up with Aspirin) headquarters was very
close to where I grew up so I saw their company bikes a lot. They found
that older style Chinese bicycles outperformed others in terms of
reliability and then bought them by the boatload. Employees were allowed
and encouraged to use them privately as well. Those were very sturdy
beasts, thick spokes, two top tubes in parallel, and so on. Even the
more modern Flying Pigeon has more spokes than usual on the rear wheel
and the whole thing weighs more than 40lbs empty. Guess why they did that.

The Bayer bicycles looked similar to this one, just more stout:

http://www.radioleverkusen.de/images2/166/168/169/19734/1000521/1000525/1372463_max.jpg

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/30/2017 11:15 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> I have thick spokes and good rims right now. However, spokes keep going
> every now and then, on the rear wheel. The "self-infliction" comes from
> the fact that I often use my bikes as ... <gasp> ... utility vehicles.
> Bringing heavy packages to Fedex when I couldn't make the pickup cut-off
> time, schlepping parts from the valley up here, etc. This includes
> sections where chugging uphill in low gear is required, almost standing
> in the pedals.

Joerg, I think you're overestimating your machismo. I use my bikes as
utility vehicles as well. My last grocery run, just a couple days ago,
had me carrying probably 50 pounds. It far exceeded the capacity of my
large shopping panniers, partly because I realized at the last minute
that we needed a big box of cat litter. I ended up with stuff lashed on
top of the panniers and overstuffing the handlebar bag. (And since it's
so important to you: yes, a dozen beers were part of the load.)

I also spent decades biking to and from work, over famously potholed
streets, often with piles of books and lab reports to grade. I do
remember breaking two rear axles over the years, but almost never a spoke.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

So buy one!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2017-03-30 11:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/30/2017 11:15 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>> I have thick spokes and good rims right now. However, spokes keep going
>> every now and then, on the rear wheel. The "self-infliction" comes from
>> the fact that I often use my bikes as ... <gasp> ... utility vehicles.
>> Bringing heavy packages to Fedex when I couldn't make the pickup cut-off
>> time, schlepping parts from the valley up here, etc. This includes
>> sections where chugging uphill in low gear is required, almost standing
>> in the pedals.
>
> Joerg, I think you're overestimating your machismo. I use my bikes as
> utility vehicles as well. My last grocery run, just a couple days ago,
> had me carrying probably 50 pounds. It far exceeded the capacity of my
> large shopping panniers, partly because I realized at the last minute
> that we needed a big box of cat litter. I ended up with stuff lashed on
> top of the panniers and overstuffing the handlebar bag. (And since it's
> so important to you: yes, a dozen beers were part of the load.)
>

I am not macho but this is standard fare for me. I have an ESGE aluminum
rack on the road bike and panniers on that. This is where tools, water,
small loads of purchase stuff rides. The flat section on top is where
machine parts for client, Fedex boxes, supplies from the valley and such
ride.

> I also spent decades biking to and from work, over famously potholed
> streets, often with piles of books and lab reports to grade. I do
> remember breaking two rear axles over the years, but almost never a spoke.
>

I broke several axles on the old MTB and that was because it had one of
those dreaded freewheels where the right bearing is too far inside.
Strangely I do not break spokes on MTB but I broke lots of them on road
bikes, maybe because they have no suspension.

Whenever this frame gives up (if it ever does) I will transfer to a
cyclocross bike with disc brakes and then I can use MTB wheels. That
should fix the problem for good.

BTW, I am by far not the only one with wear failures. The extreme is a
friend who rides around 10k miles per year. He broke frames, BBs,
spokes, numerous hubs, cranks and so on. Everything he rides is
high-class expensive stuff, he only rides on paved surfaces yet it
breaks. He only weighs around 180lbs and doesn't even have a cargo racks
on his bikes. However, he sure steps on it and I can't keep up with him
for much more than 30 minutes. Not because of lack of muscle but because
then I am out of breath.

[Joerg]

AFAIK they have been discontinued. If you haven't noticed yet the
Chinese have, sadly, given up on cycling in droves and adopted the
internal combustion engine. Now they live in smog.

http://wap.chinadaily.com.cn/img/attachement/jpg/site1/20170221/a41f72773d1b1a15bfef1c.jpg

The other issue is that, yes, I can replace this road bike with a
cyclocross bike and mod its frame so it can take a rack and heavy loads.
However, then my wife rightfully would make me get rid of ye olde
Gazelle because the garage gets too full. I can't yet bring myself to
scrapping old Gazelle (yet).

Totally OT: Is there a YouTube video of you playing your fiddle? Or in a
small band?

[AMuzi]

It might tip over. Better to be safe with:

http://cityofwatsonville.org/police-department/about-watsonville-police/police-history/1962-harley-davidson-servi-car

[AMuzi]

Meh, those Chinese models were copies anyway. Go with a real
British original only 99p !

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Double-Top-Tube-Bike-Advertising-Prop-Rod-Brake-Sit-Up-And-Beg-/332167306947?hash=item4d56b6dec3:g:M4IAAOSwax5Y2XrI

[Joerg]

> Meh, those Chinese models were copies anyway. ...


They were always good in copying stuff.


> ... Go with a real British original only 99p !
>
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Double-Top-Tube-Bike-Advertising-Prop-Rod-Brake-Sit-Up-And-Beg-/332167306947?hash=item4d56b6dec3:g:M4IAAOSwax5Y2XrI
>

It does look a bit blighted though. Here we can see a classic example
how olden day designers saw what's needed: The rear has more spokes than
the front. Just like it should be. That way a rider should still be ok
if the girlfriend hops onto the back. Unless he is married, that is.

[Joerg]

This kind also comes pedal-powered:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5543/11313071246_5b18d57675_b.jpg

And as a dually, with hi-lumen lighting:

http://fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/e-bikes/1091799d1472873463t-fat-tire-trike-ultimate-tandem-trike-image.jpg

[John B.]

On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:27:15 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

What do your mechanical skills have to do with bicycle modifications?
There are innumerable people in California that build custom bicycles
who would be glad to add brake bosses to your frame.

You state that your 26 inch MTB wheels give you little trouble. I
comment that you could easily modify your road bike to use 26 inch
wheels. You say it is too much trouble.

I repeat that not only are your problems are not insurmountable, but
they obviously self inflected.
\
Unless of course, destroying a bicycle is a macho thing and makes you
feel so masculine..

"Look Ma, I just broke my bicycle and now everyone calls me Diesel
Legs."
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 11:11:02 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/30/2017 10:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> >
> > Trip down memory lane (cue dreamy harp music). Did you visit the Cookie Lady in Afton, Va.? https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?doc_id=1431 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_Curry My picture is in the Cookie House Registry, but I'm not going to tell you what month because I look like a dope.
>
> No, our route didn't go anywhere near Afton VA. We did our own route
> from the Delaware coast, west to northern Ohio. We used some of
> Adventure Cycling's Northern Tier route, then made our own way across
> Iowa, then mostly followed Adventure Cycling's brand new Lewis & Clark
> route to the Pacific.
>
> Those were days before GPS (for us, anyway), smart phones and emails via
> thumbs. I tried to stop in libraries every week or so to email our
> various friends. If anyone's curious, those emails are online at
> http://bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/ALittleSummerRide.htm

We had postcards and phone calls. High tech was putting our film rolls in Kodak mailers and having the pictures waiting when we got home. We used maps for maps. One good part about being on the Bikecentennial route was having other bicyclists coming and going, so you could get previews of the road ahead. When we left the route to go down through the Appalachia to Knoxville, it was a little lonely -- big dogs, coal trucks . . . and banjo music. But we did get to go to the original Colonel Sanders in Corbin, Kentucky. That was worth the ride right there. We crept through the front door on our knees, praying to the grease gods and flogging ourselves with wishbones. It's a religious experience.

Ah, to be young again. I can't imagine that is as fun now as it was then.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

>I wonder just how many spokes the Vietnamese broke on those bicycles they used to haul vast quantities of stuff on the Ho Chi Minh Trail? Or is that trail not as rough as yours?
>
>Cheers

Bicycle equipped military predated the Vietminh :-)
The British had bicycle equipped troops as early as 1886, there are
photos of U.S. bicycle troops dated 1897. By 1900 each French line
infantry and chasseur battalion had a cyclist detachment.

A bit more recently the Japanese had 50,000 bicycle mounted troops
during the invasion of China in 1937 and in 1941 they used bicycle
mounted troops during the used bicycle troops during the invasion of
Malaya and Singapore which were said to be highly effective.

Currently all Finnish conscripts are trained to use bicycles and the
Swiss maintained a Bicycle Troop until 2001. In fact there was even a
specially made "Swiss Army Bicycle" that went through several
versions, the latest being the "Militärvelo" MO 93 that weighed 50 lbs
and had, not only carried fore and aft but a large enclosed container
attached to the top tube.

As late as 1997 Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)
funded research conducted by the U.S. Marine Corps to develop a
tactical folding all terrain bicycle. The parameters of the test seem
to be 75 lbs of cargo while "fuel" was specified as 3 lbs of food
(MRE) and 24 lbs of water.


But Joerg breaks spokes.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Doug Landau]

> We had postcards and phone calls. High tech was putting our film rolls in Kodak mailers and having the pictures waiting when we got home. We used maps for maps. One good part about being on the Bikecentennial route was having other bicyclists coming and going, so you could get previews of the road ahead. When we left the route to go down through the Appalachia to Knoxville, it was a little lonely -- big dogs, coal trucks . . . and banjo music. But we did get to go to the original Colonel Sanders in Corbin, Kentucky. That was worth the ride right there. We crept through the front door on our knees, praying to the grease gods and flogging ourselves with wishbones. It's a religious experience.

You were looky! We used to -dream- of being passed by coal trucks. Would've been paradise, to us.

[John B.]

On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:35:06 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

You talk as though these Bayer bicycles were something unusual. The
Chinese Flying Pigeon PA-08 is still being made and I believe are
available at a shop in Los Angeles or alternately through the Flying
Pigeon web site.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

About high class, expensive stuff: I think spending lots of money
doesn't necessarily mean you're getting more reliability. In some
cases, you're getting lighter equipment that is supposed to produce
performance benefits, but which probably has lower safety factors. IOW,
the designers cut things closer to the minimum in order to advertise
lightness.

I'm not at all saying that the cheapest stuff is the strongests. But it
may be that there's some sweet spot, a price point at which the
equipment is good enough in material and design to be strong and work
well, but not so "high class" as to require careful use to prevent failure.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/30/2017 3:19 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
> Totally OT: Is there a YouTube video of you playing your fiddle? Or in a
> small band?

I doubt it. When we begin playing, most people turn off their cameras
and head for the exit. We've thought about hiring ourselves out for
crowd control.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

This museum
http://www.packardmuseum.org/MotorcycleExhibit.aspx
is quite nearby. Friends and I visit the annual motorcycle exhibit each
year, and I often arrive on my antique BMW.

The exhibit changes every year, but almost every year they've had a
Servi-Car on display.

I've never ridden a motorized three wheeler, but my one experience on a
old-style men's upright racing tricycle (Delta, not Tadpole design)
makes me think I'd approach curves with an abundance of caution.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

As vaguely related as possible:

Sometime in the 1980s, we saw a wonderful play titled "Spokesong." It
was set in Belfast during the 1970s Irish "Troubles" but also set during
The Great [first world] War. Two different generations were dealing
with their personal relationships, the troubles of the world around
them, and their absolute love of bicycles.

One of the characters was a man sent off to war, with high hopes about
the glorious utility of the bicycle as a war machine. In the play, it
didn't quite work out.

Another was an idealistic owner of a bike shop, convinced that bicycles
could save the city, but fighting to keep his shop from being taken over
for "urban renewal."

I recommend the play highly, although I suppose one's chance of seeing
it performed is rather small. It spoke to me on many levels. I think
it's worth tracking down the script, at least.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/30/2017 9:38 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
>
>> We had postcards and phone calls. High tech was putting our film rolls in Kodak mailers and having the pictures waiting when we got home. We used maps for maps. One good part about being on the Bikecentennial route was having other bicyclists coming and going, so you could get previews of the road ahead. When we left the route to go down through the Appalachia to Knoxville, it was a little lonely -- big dogs, coal trucks . . . and banjo music. But we did get to go to the original Colonel Sanders in Corbin, Kentucky. That was worth the ride right there. We crept through the front door on our knees, praying to the grease gods and flogging ourselves with wishbones. It's a religious experience.
>
> You were looky! We used to -dream- of being passed by coal trucks. Would've been paradise, to us.

If you want to mash up paradise with coal, there's this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vC65_cq0Js

Regarding passed by trucks: When riding the freeways out west, we found
almost all the truckers to be a bit too courteous. They passed us
almost invariably a full lane away. That meant we didn't get the
benefit of the tailwind they were dragging behind them.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:19:52 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

But even a quick look at the Internet shows super strong rims and wide
flange hubs. I really doubt that a combination of, say a Grand Bois,
Maxi-Car, Grand-Cru or even a Chris King, high flange hub with a
strong 36 hole rim and decent spokes and built by someone that knows
what they are doing will be prone to failure.

Or read the Jones wheel site http://www.jonesprecisionwheels.com
Note that his order form asks for information about how much the rider
weighs and how much cargo he plans to carry, the riding style, the
terrain and even problems that you have had with previous wheel sets.

Of course, there is the possibility that you simply don't know what
you are doing and trying to carry a heavier load than your bicycle is
designed for.. After all even a 50 ton truck can be overloaded.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, you can buy a low end Rolex watch for about $5,000 these days.
Or a low end Casio G-Shock for ~$99. Which one keeps the best time one
wonders :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

On 2017-03-31 00:46, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 22:14:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/30/2017 3:12 PM, Joerg wrote:

[...]

>>> BTW, I am by far not the only one with wear failures. The extreme is a
>>> friend who rides around 10k miles per year. He broke frames, BBs,
>>> spokes, numerous hubs, cranks and so on. Everything he rides is
>>> high-class expensive stuff, he only rides on paved surfaces yet it
>>> breaks. He only weighs around 180lbs and doesn't even have a cargo racks
>>> on his bikes. However, he sure steps on it and I can't keep up with him
>>> for much more than 30 minutes. Not because of lack of muscle but because
>>> then I am out of breath.
>>
>> About high class, expensive stuff: I think spending lots of money
>> doesn't necessarily mean you're getting more reliability. In some
>> cases, you're getting lighter equipment that is supposed to produce
>> performance benefits, but which probably has lower safety factors. IOW,
>> the designers cut things closer to the minimum in order to advertise
>> lightness.
>>

True. Even if it's not weight weenie stuff price does not guarantee
quality. I remember people razzing me that buying a $2k MTB was not
smart, that I should have spent at least $4k for this or that bike and
yada, yada, yada. Turns out the $4k+ bikes of friends break and wear
just about as much as mine and with the same symptoms. Rear shock mounts
going klock-klock and so on.

>> I'm not at all saying that the cheapest stuff is the strongests. But it
>> may be that there's some sweet spot, a price point at which the
>> equipment is good enough in material and design to be strong and work
>> well, but not so "high class" as to require careful use to prevent failure.
>
> Well, you can buy a low end Rolex watch for about $5,000 these days.
> Or a low end Casio G-Shock for ~$99. Which one keeps the best time one
> wonders :-)

My $10 Nokia 2115i :-)

[Joerg]

If you are willing to pay big bucks.

> You state that your 26 inch MTB wheels give you little trouble. I
> comment that you could easily modify your road bike to use 26 inch
> wheels. You say it is too much trouble.
>

I do not feel comfortable and safe on 26" wheels. Since the wheels of my
29" MTB are holding up on gnarly turf it is obviously possible to also
build a larger wheel that holds up. Except I can't use those because 29"
MTB all have disc brakes and the rims aren't suitable for rim brakes.
So, I will be looking for a good 700c wheel. Someone here already
pointed out a sturdy rim that is rim-brake compatible.

[...]

[Joerg]

:-)

That I don't believe ...

[Joerg]

They were a heavier class than the Flying Pigeon.

[Duane]

Weight weenie stuff? Odd that you get upset with people giving you a
hard time because you want to have a bike that is as strong as a car but
you dis people whose priorities are based on performance.

<snip>

[Sir Ridesalot]

Read his posts and threads from overthe years and you'll see that Joerg just likes to complain. After all, nothing, and I do mean NOTHING off the shelf works for Joerg or his friends. Never mind that many use the same stuff for expedition tours and don't have problems with it. Joerg is either abusing his stuff or he's using the wrong stuff for the wrong job such as taking a heavily loaded road bike onto a rough dirt trail and then trying to ride it at speed. Then again, that's abusing your equipment isn't it?

Cheers

[jbeattie]

He's over-loading an early '80s mid-fi European sport racing bike. It's like complaining about a BMW 320i being crappy off road. For under $1K USD he could buy an aluminum gravel bike that would solve all his problems.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

I've always assumed that it was a macho thing - See there! I can too
break a bicycle".

The "Man of Steel" as it were, Faster than a speeding bullet. More
powerful than a locomotive. Able to leap tall buildings in a single
bound ...
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Speaking of watches, I'd love to find an old Casio 694894 in good
condition. I've never found another watch I liked as much.

And about mechanical watches: If anyone has repair instructions for a
Landeron 248 chronograph movement, I'd be interested. I'm a bit afraid
to dive into it by trial and error.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I've wondered if part of it is just not adapting his riding style to the
terrain. I've known riders who tended to just plow fully seated through
any surface features that popped up in front of them. OTOH I've known
others that scanned ahead to plot the smoothest course through the
potholes or rocks, unweighted the saddle or stood up on flexed knees and
elbows to lessen shock, wheelied or hopped over unavoidable obstacles,
etc. I think the latter group breaks far fewer spokes and other components.

And before Joerg talks about his macho loads, in my younger days I
routinely jumped two different sets of railroad tracks despite the big
briefcase on the back. Even with a load, one can adapt.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:54:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski

>Speaking of watches, I'd love to find an old in good

>condition. I've never found another watch I liked as much.
\>And about mechanical watches: If anyone has repair instructions for
a
>Landeron 248 chronograph movement, I'd be interested. I'm a bit afraid
>to dive into it by trial and error.

Maybe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsXX7LyE3tc
or maybe
http://watchguy.co.uk/service-bucherer-chronograph-calibre-landeron-248/
--
Cheers,

John B.