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Plastic coated cables

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John B.

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May 5, 2016, 10:05:42 PM5/5/16
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All of my bikes have plastic lined brake and shift cable housings
(casings?). I have seen plastic coated cables and wonder whether one
could use a plastic coated cable in a plastic lined cable housing with
the hope of reducing friction.

Generally a plain bearing, which in essence is what a bicycle cable
and housing are, is a hard surface moving on a softer surface and I am
wondering what the results of running a relatively soft plastic coated
cable in a relatively soft plastic lines housing would be.

Does it work? Is it better?
--

Cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski

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May 5, 2016, 10:42:07 PM5/5/16
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Well, it works, in the sense that I've had that on one of my bikes for
years, with no problems. (But then I seem to get fewer problems than
many here.)

Is it better? I don't know. Oddly, the shifting effort (with bar-end
friction shifters) on that bike seems a bit higher than on my other
bikes with similar shifters. That's including even the tandem. But I
suspect that the difference in effort is due to a stronger return spring
on that particular derailleur.

In summary, I think the setup causes no trouble, but my guess is that it
provides negligible benefit.


--
- Frank Krygowski

jbeattie

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May 5, 2016, 11:36:05 PM5/5/16
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SOP for Jagwire. http://jagwire.com/products/v/road_pro There is trend toward skipping the teflon coated cable in favor of slick stainless. http://jagwire.com/products/v/universal_sport_shift_xl You can get slough off teflon coated cables, notwithstanding Ian's recent posts.

I can't say whether its better. I've used teflon coated cable and don't recall if was any better than good SS and teflon liner -- my usual set up. These kinds of incremental differences disappear if you're BB guide is sticky, which is my usual problem riding a lot in the rain.

-- Jay Beattie.

avag...@gmail.com

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May 6, 2016, 12:36:23 AM5/6/16
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Jagwire is AAA

no, not a plain bearing but a lubricant reservoir.

Teflon is experimental here ? reducing friction ...within a clean environment. Not clean would expose the lower friction possibility of Teflon/Teflon to large surface area peppered with grit.

choose your weapon moorhens.....

https://goo.gl/dzvrFq

Tosspot

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May 6, 2016, 5:04:16 AM5/6/16
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I've done cheap inners, stainless inners and Jagwire (teflon coated)
inners, and can't say I've noticed any differences. These days I use
stainless with a very thin smear of grease because I found galvanised
rusted after a while, so I don't do those anymore.

John B.

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May 6, 2016, 8:04:22 AM5/6/16
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The consensus agrees with you. See, Rec.bikes.tech does work. Ask a
question and LO! you get a meaningful response.

In this case saving me to cost of two plastic coated brake cables :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

AMuzi

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May 6, 2016, 8:07:35 AM5/6/16
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In our experience modern smooth drawn wires in PTFE liners
are the smoothest and most durable combination. Despite
printed instructions to the contrary, a wipe of the wire
with oily fingers at installation is our usual technique.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Lou Holtman

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May 6, 2016, 2:04:22 PM5/6/16
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Coated cables work OK till the moment the coating gets damaged, then they
are worse.
Like Andrew says smooth drawn SS cables in PTFE liners are the most durable
setup. I'm not a fan of the oily fingers though. Oil attracts dust and
dirt.
--
Lou

Tosspot

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May 6, 2016, 3:17:56 PM5/6/16
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I think you're right there but it's a rite I can't pass up. I mean, it
*has* to be lubed, along with square tapers, various nuts and bolts,
chain etc. It ain't right otherwise :-)

I have a mortal dread of seized bolts, especially smaller (<5mm) hex ones.

John B.

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May 6, 2016, 9:41:50 PM5/6/16
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Gad Sir! Oily fingers? Don't your people wear those pretty blue work
gloves that I see on Youtube?
--

Cheers,

John B.

avag...@gmail.com

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May 6, 2016, 10:36:37 PM5/6/16
to
block the low end of housing, hang vertical (suspend) n fill with Finish line Teflon with wax drain onto....

saturate cable with Finish Line dry lube aka Teflon with wax dripping lube down a suspended cable

AMuzi

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May 7, 2016, 7:44:18 AM5/7/16
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Are you kidding? How would anyone know you had honest work
without those permanent grey lines in your hands?

avag...@gmail.com

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May 7, 2016, 7:47:48 AM5/7/16
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DIRT into the saturated Teflon/wax enters at cable ends. FL t/w has an effective solvent carrier for the t/w...this factor is the main ingredient.

With frequent drips into cable ends...one/2 drips...the dirt entry there functionally dissolves with a cable sliding action n a wipe out/drip out process. and urback 2 the as installed point.

John B.

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May 7, 2016, 8:39:56 AM5/7/16
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On Sat, 07 May 2016 02:53:18 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> considered Fri, 06 May 2016 07:07:34 -0500
>Oil, grease, or wax on the cable do help repel water, with it's
>accompanying problems.
>So I wouldn't skip that step either.

Aren't most cables stainless these days? I ride in the rain
occasionally and my cables never get rusty.

--

Cheers,

John B.

David Scheidt

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May 7, 2016, 9:27:00 AM5/7/16
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John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
:On Sat, 07 May 2016 02:53:18 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
Good ones are. Galvanized are available, and are cheaper. (but if
you're paying someone to do the work, the cost difference is swamped
by the price of labor).

--
sig 21

Frank Krygowski

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May 7, 2016, 10:18:03 AM5/7/16
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On 5/7/2016 9:26 AM, David Scheidt wrote:
> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> :Aren't most cables stainless these days? I ride in the rain
> :occasionally and my cables never get rusty.
>
> Good ones are. Galvanized are available, and are cheaper. (but if
> you're paying someone to do the work, the cost difference is swamped
> by the price of labor).

Galvanized seem way easier to solder before cutting. I do like that.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Lou Holtman

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May 7, 2016, 1:55:00 PM5/7/16
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You prefer galvanized cables because of that? Weird. Solder? Also weird.

--
Lou

Frank Krygowski

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May 7, 2016, 5:59:31 PM5/7/16
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Nope, didn't say I preferred galvanized. I said I like that I can
solder them.

Solder (before cutting) is AFAICT the best way of finishing a cable end,
by far.


--
- Frank Krygowski

David Scheidt

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May 7, 2016, 10:29:07 PM5/7/16
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Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Silver solder the stainless ones, then.


--
sig 72

Frank Krygowski

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May 7, 2016, 11:25:50 PM5/7/16
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On 5/7/2016 10:29 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> :On 5/7/2016 1:54 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> :> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> :>>
> :>>
> :>> Galvanized seem way easier to solder before cutting. I do like that.
> :>>
> :>>
> :>
> :> You prefer galvanized cables because of that? Weird. Solder? Also weird.
>
> :Nope, didn't say I preferred galvanized. I said I like that I can
> :solder them.
>
> :Solder (before cutting) is AFAICT the best way of finishing a cable end,
> :by far.
>
> Silver solder the stainless ones, then.

I haven't tried that. Has anyone else? Any tips?


--
- Frank Krygowski

John B.

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May 8, 2016, 1:31:32 AM5/8/16
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Ah, come on there. them there gray lines make the McDonalds taste
funny. Better, by far, to wash one hands :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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May 8, 2016, 1:35:17 AM5/8/16
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Well, I am retired so I rarely pay someone else to do it :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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May 8, 2016, 1:41:32 AM5/8/16
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If you are talking about soldering the end you are poking through the
casing I find that Magic Glue works well.

But I do remember changing the cables on my British Royal Enfield
motorcycle and having to solder the end fitting to the wire and after
you had the cable installed there was a little prayer that you said
just before you squeezed the lever the first time, "Please don't
break" :-)
.
--

Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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May 8, 2016, 1:45:10 AM5/8/16
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On Sat, 7 May 2016 23:25:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
Well, you will need to use the stainless flux and then get the cable
red hot and then after you solder it you need to clean all the
solidified flux off/out of the cable. :-)

Plus... silver solder is not cheap.



--

Cheers,

John B.

Peter Howard

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May 8, 2016, 1:45:35 AM5/8/16
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Clean any oil or grease residue off area of stainless steel cable to be
soldered. Boil in water and detergent to be really sure then rinse in
clean water and dry with hot air.

Wear safety goggles and have fume extraction or do it in the open air.

Dip cable in phosphoric acid of the sort used as a rust converter in
auto body repair. Coca-cola is unfortunately not concentrated enough.

Solder with a high wattage (80-120W) electric or gas soldering iron. One
with a substantial soldering bit. Use rosin core 60/40 solder (more than
50% tin). Its good to have an iron with a broad face so the cable can be
submerged and worked around in a glob of molted solder. Have one of
those short bristled acid brushes handy to brush on more phosphoric acid
as needed. Clean the job up afterwards with water and a brillo pad.
It works for me ;-)
PH

Lou Holtman

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May 8, 2016, 2:54:43 AM5/8/16
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Op 8-5-2016 om 7:45 schreef Peter Howard:
Why goiing through all that trouble?


Peter Howard

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May 8, 2016, 5:49:13 AM5/8/16
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Because it is possible?
PH

John B.

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May 8, 2016, 7:12:02 AM5/8/16
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Errr.... I think that the guy was talking about "silver soldering, or
more correctly "silver brazing", which is done in the 1145 to 1650ºF
temperature range.
--
cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski

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May 8, 2016, 8:39:37 AM5/8/16
to
I recall making a custom straddle cable for a rear center pull brake on
my wife's mixte, many years ago. I wanted to put the brake at the mixte
tubes and behind the seat tube, since that gives a perfect alignment for
the brake cable. It required a very long straddle cable that would pass
around the front of the seat tube. I cut the end buttons out of a steel
rod, drilled them, and soldered the cable with (IIRC) ordinary solder.
It worked fine, and the current owner still uses that setup.

I also recall fabricating a clutch cable for a motorcycle using the same
technique. One tip: The transverse hole through the button should be
countersunk on one end. The cable is inserted in the non-countersunk
end, and the cable wires get un-twisted and splayed out before
soldering, so they're spread out in the countersunk hole. It supposedly
increases the strength of the joint tremendously.

(I've seen that technique used to anchor the ends of cables before
placing in a tension testing machine, for testing cables to failure.)


--
- Frank Krygowski

patrick

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May 8, 2016, 8:56:43 AM5/8/16
to
On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 7:05:42 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> All of my bikes have plastic lined brake and shift cable housings
> (casings?). I have seen plastic coated cables and wonder whether one
> could use a plastic coated cable in a plastic lined cable housing with
> the hope of reducing friction.
>
> Generally a plain bearing, which in essence is what a bicycle cable
> and housing are, is a hard surface moving on a softer surface and I am
> wondering what the results of running a relatively soft plastic coated
> cable in a relatively soft plastic lines housing would be.
>
> Does it work? Is it better?
> --
>
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

superior flux #71- the way to go with stainless cable- Pat

avag...@gmail.com

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May 8, 2016, 8:58:53 AM5/8/16
to
hahahhahahhahheyah....tips....soldering is OOO .... as written, the twining is a reservoir for....manufacturing debris n shipping coatings rendering flux effectiveness into a probalistic area.

but on Ohio ? who knows ?

AMuzi

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May 8, 2016, 10:14:02 AM5/8/16
to
I haven't although it seems doable in theory.

In practice, new brake and gear wires are dirt cheap and are
delivered with an arc-cut solid end.

AMuzi

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May 8, 2016, 10:19:06 AM5/8/16
to
Actual brake cable heads are splayed out before the soft
metal head is cast on them:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/cablhead.jpg

Frank Krygowski

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May 8, 2016, 12:00:19 PM5/8/16
to
Because of the cable routing and longer wheelbase, my touring bike needs
a longer than standard cable. I buy tandem length cables, then cut them
to length, something like 67" IIRC. I generally use the little zinc end
caps, but I prefer soldering.


--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi

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May 8, 2016, 5:10:10 PM5/8/16
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On 5/8/2016 4:05 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> considered Sun, 8 May 2016
> Ditto.
> I've found stainless steel cables possible to solder, but more
> difficult.
> Using a decent flux and a BIG soldering iron capable of higher than
> typical temperatures seems to be key (I have no idea what temperature
> I use - it's graduated from yellow through orange and red, and for
> that job I turn it all the way to the stop). The soldering iron I use
> is one I usually refer to as my "hot spade", and was originally bought
> for soldering 100A+ electrical cables.
>

There is a correct or optimum temperature for your process
but a bigger iron holds more btu of that temperature.

John B.

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May 8, 2016, 10:12:21 PM5/8/16
to
On Sun, 8 May 2016 08:39:34 -0400, Frank Krygowski
It surely does and by quite a bit.

>(I've seen that technique used to anchor the ends of cables before
>placing in a tension testing machine, for testing cables to failure.)

That is using a "wedge and sleeve" isn't it? A number of companies use
that approach for rigging wires ranging from yachts to bridges.
--
cheers,

John B.

John B.

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May 8, 2016, 10:16:44 PM5/8/16
to
On Sun, 08 May 2016 21:47:21 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>Lou Holtman <lou.h...@usenet.nl> considered Sun, 8 May 2016
>Because it leaves a cable end which doesn't fray, and which can be
>removed and replaced if necessary (as long as you don't leave too
>large a blob of solder on it).
>By comparison, crimping a cap on the end of the cable is quicker, and
>stops it fraying, but once removed for taking the cable out it leaves
>an end which will fray, and rip up the housing liner if you try to
>reinstall it.

A little "magic glue" on the cable before you cut it usually works.
And takes far less time then scouting up the big soldering iron,
finding the solder and walking to the store to get a new can of flux.
:-)

--
cheers,

John B.

Lou Holtman

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May 9, 2016, 3:56:14 PM5/9/16
to
Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@usenet.nl> considered Sun, 8 May 2016
> Because it leaves a cable end which doesn't fray, and which can be
> removed and replaced if necessary (as long as you don't leave too
> large a blob of solder on it).
> By comparison, crimping a cap on the end of the cable is quicker, and
> stops it fraying, but once removed for taking the cable out it leaves
> an end which will fray, and rip up the housing liner if you try to
> reinstall it.
>

If you do it right it doesn't fray and the end cap can be removed easily.
The cable is damaged more under the bolt of the derailleur.

--
Lou

avag...@gmail.com

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May 9, 2016, 6:26:58 PM5/9/16
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John B.

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May 9, 2016, 10:11:27 PM5/9/16
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On Mon, 09 May 2016 18:20:52 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> considered Mon, 09 May 2016 09:12:17
>It's also used for anchoring replacement ligaments in place through
>bones during reconstructive osteopathic surgery.

I thought they just stretched the broken ligament out, stuck it
through the hole that they drilled in the bone, and tied a knot in it.
--
cheers,

John B.

John B.

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May 10, 2016, 9:22:06 PM5/10/16
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On Tue, 10 May 2016 18:11:30 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> considered Tue, 10 May 2016 09:11:15
>I don't think they've been using that method for decades now.

Possibly not. I only have personal knowledge of one case where a
Biceps ligament snapped and the guy was in Hungary, maybe 15 years
ago, when it happened and was treated in a local hospital.


>The main debate seems to have moved on to the best source of graftable
>tissue, along with details of which particular routing to use for each
>ligament for the best outcome.
>I researched it up quite intensively when I was being evaluated for
>PCL reconstruction (with the encouragement of Mr Edwards, my
>consultant orthopedic surgeon). It turned out that due to the length
>of time since the injury, I was an extremely poor candidate for
>surgical reconstruction, with as much chance of a worse outcome as an
>improved one (40% worse, 40% better, 20% no change, on the stats at
>the time).
>That was about 15 years ago, and even then knotting was only mentioned
>in passing as an outdated technique. I can't find any reference to it
>in current literature at all (although I don't have access to as much
>now as I did then). Now all the discussion about anchoring methods I
>can find seems to be about the relative merits of different wedge
>devices versus bone wedges, with or without additional fixative pegs,
>pins, or screws.
>Of course, most of what I've read has been with particular reference
>to the knee, but then that does seem to be about the most common
>ligament reconstruction site. It may be that on less heavily loaded
>ligaments, knotting is still used as it is strong enough on it's own.
>It's too late for me now anyway - I've lost far too much leg function
>for other reasons for it to be worth messing about with.
--
cheers,

John B.

David Scheidt

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May 11, 2016, 8:44:50 PM5/11/16
to
Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I used a silver solder flux from harris, and a a high silver solder.
(probably Safety-silver 45T, which is a cadmium free solder with a bit
of tin, and 45% silver.) worked fine. This wasn't for a bike, but
for a nutjob's custom throttle cables on a hot rod. Little crimp on
caps would have terribly gauche. 56% silver is easier to work with,
but costs more.


Silver solder is expensive, but you're using
a tiny amount, and an ounce will last a lieftime's worth of cables,
with enough for your grandchildren's.


--
sig 101

Frank Krygowski

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May 11, 2016, 9:14:01 PM5/11/16
to
I've actually got some silver solder stashed away somewhere. I'll try
to remember to give that a try next time this comes up.


--
- Frank Krygowski

John B.

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May 12, 2016, 10:27:15 PM5/12/16
to
On Wed, 11 May 2016 21:13:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski
The flux used to silver braze stainless can cause difficulties. Harris
(one of the better suppliers) makes flux that can be used for almost
any material but other companies make a specific stainless flux.
--
cheers,

John B.

cycl...@gmail.com

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May 13, 2016, 8:16:02 PM5/13/16
to
On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 7:05:42 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> All of my bikes have plastic lined brake and shift cable housings
> (casings?). I have seen plastic coated cables and wonder whether one
> could use a plastic coated cable in a plastic lined cable housing with
> the hope of reducing friction.
>
> Generally a plain bearing, which in essence is what a bicycle cable
> and housing are, is a hard surface moving on a softer surface and I am
> wondering what the results of running a relatively soft plastic coated
> cable in a relatively soft plastic lines housing would be.
>
> Does it work? Is it better?

The best working cables are the stainless Shimano or Campy inners and outers.

The cables you're talking of are VERY often cheap steel and they will break apart from over-tightening or rusting. They do make some higher quality stuff but I've never been able to discern how to tell the difference until I had them in my hands.

Now Teflon against Teflon is not a problem but some of these cables have a thick layer of Teflon on them and although they feel OK when threading them they barely fit through the outer and I think that this might be a source of people saying their cables seem tight.

John B.

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May 14, 2016, 2:03:49 AM5/14/16
to
On Fri, 13 May 2016 17:15:59 -0700 (PDT), cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

>On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 7:05:42 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> All of my bikes have plastic lined brake and shift cable housings
>> (casings?). I have seen plastic coated cables and wonder whether one
>> could use a plastic coated cable in a plastic lined cable housing with
>> the hope of reducing friction.
>>
>> Generally a plain bearing, which in essence is what a bicycle cable
>> and housing are, is a hard surface moving on a softer surface and I am
>> wondering what the results of running a relatively soft plastic coated
>> cable in a relatively soft plastic lines housing would be.
>>
>> Does it work? Is it better?
>
>The best working cables are the stainless Shimano or Campy inners and outers.
>
>The cables you're talking of are VERY often cheap steel and they will break apart from over-tightening or rusting. They do make some higher quality stuff but I've never been able to discern how to tell the difference until I had them in my hands.

Well the cables I was talking about are Shimano outers and likely
inner's although I can't say for sure as I have changed inner's on
most of the bikes.

>Now Teflon against Teflon is not a problem but some of these cables have a thick layer of Teflon on them and although they feel OK when threading them they barely fit through the outer and I think that this might be a source of people saying their cables seem tight.
--
cheers,

John B.

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