Soldering spokes.

[Ian Field]

Stumbled upon a flux advert in a WW2 era archive of Wireless World
magazine.........................

The manufacturer Fluxite suggests in their advert; bicycle spokes should be
bound with wire at the points where they cross, and soldered to reinforce
the strength of the wheel.

The first thought that came to my mind was the heat would cause localised
annealing of the spokes.

Its left as an exercise for the student to think of all the other things
wrong with it......................................

[avag...@gmail.com]

nnnnnn

have Muzi do it...

tin both spokes, clamp together

brush with torch and solder.

and those spokes are not our spokes

814 !

[John B. Slocomb]

Firstly, I doubt that bicycle spokes are heattreated so any hardening
would be a result of work hardening and secondly soldering with tin
lead solder is at about 183 C and the annealing temperature of
stainless, depending specific allow, is about 1040 C.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

I used to tie and solder using a propane torch. I did that on some crappy Union zinc plated spokes, and I must have hit it with too much heat, and the spoke stretched like taffy. Oops. I never had that problem with SS spokes.

Jobst slapped me on the wrist for tying and soldering, so I quit -- but looking at the wheels I built for myself and others using tied and soldered DT stainless spokes, the only problem was broken ties. Its too bad Peter Chisholm left our group a million years ago. He was still tying and soldering (and putting up with insults from Jobsts). He would have a good idea of what effect, if any, tying and soldering had on modern SS spokes.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B. Slocomb]

I researched that a bit and came across one site by some guy that
built wheels for some big name European rider and recommended tying
and soldering spokes but from his description - tin-lead solder and SS
spokes it was apparent that the ties didn't adhere to the spokes. In
fact I believe that he mentioned something about the ties made the
wheel stiffer by fixing the spokes together where they crossed which
would make the structure stiffer. Think of two triangles peak to peak.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

The solder is used to bind the wire wrap and knot, doesn't
adhere to the spoke if done properly.

http://www.urbanvelo.org/issue11/urbanvelo11_p70-71.html

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[avag...@gmail.com]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/\

well, not that I'm soldering spokes tomorrow but can Andy or JB give an estimate of how stiffer a 36 700c is with tie n solder n standard ?

I use a plastic wheel cart drag an expedition kayak up the beach...wheels are repairable with heat skimming plastic melt into the rip or hole

http://www.summitracing.com/search/product-line/power-probe-butane-solder-kits?SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending&tw=butane%20solder&sw=Power%20Probe%20Butane%20Solder%20Kits

[AMuzi]

Let me clarify that.
I'm not saying it's better or recommended or even useful.
But if you want that done, we'll do it for you, promptly and
nicely. The world is big place and people like what they
like and that's a good thing.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/16/2015 10:44 AM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> well, not that I'm soldering spokes tomorrow but can Andy or JB give an estimate of how
stiffer a 36 700c is with tie n solder n standard ?

If I'm allowed to guess, I'll say zero percent stiffer.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ian Field]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:mbssms$ukf$1...@dont-email.me...

Having used that flux frequently in my career, I can safely say it would
have no difficulty with any electroplating (with the possible exception of
chrome) that might be on the spokes.

If you use *THAT* flux - you fully intend to tin the spokes.

[Ian Field]

"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mbtbhm$1s9$2...@dont-email.me...

Frankly. I doubt that lead/tin solder is strong enough to prevent adjacent
spokes moving relative to each other as the wheel flexes - and if it did,
breakage would probably be more likely.

Back in WW2 when the advert was printed, most things were cheaper to repair
than replace - and soldered spokes is *NOT* what a wheel builder wants to
see!

These days, a wheel rebuild could easily work out more expensive than just
buying a new one, so its not like it matters.

[Ian Field]

"John B. Slocomb" <sloc...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:9ff2ealm7a1j7fc67...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:31:30 -0000, "Ian Field"
> <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>Stumbled upon a flux advert in a WW2 era archive of Wireless World
>>magazine.........................
>>
>>The manufacturer Fluxite suggests in their advert; bicycle spokes should
>>be
>>bound with wire at the points where they cross, and soldered to reinforce
>>the strength of the wheel.
>>
>>The first thought that came to my mind was the heat would cause localised
>>annealing of the spokes.
>>
>>Its left as an exercise for the student to think of all the other things
>>wrong with it......................................
>
> Firstly, I doubt that bicycle spokes are heattreated so any hardening
> would be a result of work hardening

AFAICR; the threads are cold rolled, and presumably spokes are drawn through
dies just like anything that starts off as wire.

There probably wasn't any such thing as stainless bicycle spokes back in WW2
when that advert was published.

[AMuzi]

The solder merely keeps the steel wire wrap from unwinding.

[Ian Field]

"John B. Slocomb" <sloc...@invalid.com> wrote in message

news:e6m3ead0lrm2nmggi...@4ax.com...

I found an ACTIVE plumbers flux that works well on SS - with some other
fluxes it can look like a good joint, but has no strength.

[avag...@gmail.com]

2 long spokes short-end by twisting or wire-ing/soldering into 4 shorter spokes with a wider base now relative to the long 2 spoke configuration....are obviously strogner/stiffer more stable than 2 long spokes

as seen here appearing several times on this visit to GooImages


http://goo.gl/I2tJkK

yet when questioned experts always say no or deflect avoid obfuscate comment.

why is this ?

[avag...@gmail.com]

JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ

STILL HERE


http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tied-soldered.html

[jbeattie]

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tied-soldered.html It looks cool, and I thought it made a difference, but when you think of how a tension structure works, it shouldn't make a difference. With my wheels, T&S might have resulted in a better wheel just because I spent more time working on the wheel, getting out the residual stresses and any twist.

-- Jay Beattie.

[avag...@gmail.com]

nnnnnnnnnnnnnn-x

gnaw....the untied spokes are more or less a tension structure...(we're not sure circular foundations qualify) but TIED there's .5 of whatever structure with 2 solid triangles linked at the apexz

so which is stiffer ? 2 short triangles or a tension structure twice as long ?
the tension structure actually hinged at all ends no less !

I will read Brandt after dinner

like whale oil, we do see why compulsive wheel builders try tied spokes.

[John B. Slocomb]

The site I found described the theory of tying spokes as changing
things from a series of long spoke reaching from hub to rim to two
shorter triangles, an inner and outer, apex to apex, and thus better.

However, like many theories that are advanced the proof seems to be
"it stands to reason", or "everyone knows", or possible, "because I
said so".

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:04:24 -0000, "Ian Field"

<gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>
>"John B. Slocomb" <sloc...@invalid.com> wrote in message
>news:9ff2ealm7a1j7fc67...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:31:30 -0000, "Ian Field"
>> <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Stumbled upon a flux advert in a WW2 era archive of Wireless World
>>>magazine.........................
>>>
>>>The manufacturer Fluxite suggests in their advert; bicycle spokes should
>>>be
>>>bound with wire at the points where they cross, and soldered to reinforce
>>>the strength of the wheel.
>>>
>>>The first thought that came to my mind was the heat would cause localised
>>>annealing of the spokes.
>>>
>>>Its left as an exercise for the student to think of all the other things
>>>wrong with it......................................
>>
>> Firstly, I doubt that bicycle spokes are heattreated so any hardening
>> would be a result of work hardening
>
>AFAICR; the threads are cold rolled, and presumably spokes are drawn through
>dies just like anything that starts off as wire.
>

If a straight spoke than I assume that it is made like a nail, from
drawn wire. If a butted spoke than it must be done by some form of
swaging. In either case there will likely be some degree of work
hardening.

>There probably wasn't any such thing as stainless bicycle spokes back in WW2
>when that advert was published.

By the way, if one gets excited by spokes, a good article is
http://people.duke.edu/~hpgavin/papers/HPGavin-Wheel-Paper.pdf
which was published in ASCE Journal of Engineering Mechanics, vol 122,
no. 8, (August 1996) pp. 736 - 742 and thus likely to have been "peer
reviewed" and probably more authoritative than "everybody knows" or
"it stands to reason" (or even "I said so" :-).
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:08:16 -0000, "Ian Field"

The British Stainless Steel Association recommends that a thorough
mechanical cleaning of the stainless be done, an "aggressive flux"
containing phosphoric acid or having added hydrochloric acid be used,
and "it is recommended that the tin content (of the solder) should be
more than 50% to give good bond strength and minimize the risk of
galvanic corrosion to the soldered joint during service".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 8:53:10 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

Didn't tying and soldering spokes start in the era of the High-Wheel bicycle snd done because of the very long spokes used on the front wheels?

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/16/2015 5:58 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 10:06:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/16/2015 10:44 AM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> well, not that I'm soldering spokes tomorrow but can Andy or JB give an estimate of how
>> stiffer a 36 700c is with tie n solder n standard ?
>>
>> If I'm allowed to guess, I'll say zero percent stiffer.
>>
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tied-soldered.html It looks cool, and I thought it made a
difference, but when you think of how a tension structure works, it
shouldn't make a
difference.

The measurements mentioned in the article by Jobst certainly don't
surprise me.

It's interesting, though, that you thought it made a difference. That's
evidence that we're influenced by our expectations. I think about that
almost every time I read another "stiff but compliant" road test.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

gnaw...you jest ? a shorter tension structure is stiffer than a longer tension structure.

Off course figuring quantitatively there's the soldered point as relative fixed as not actually fixed as immovable foundation.

Then Wheelsmith. WS work is near perfect esp in this particular case.

Your work isnot. Effects of solder/tie your work and Wheelsmith's is a priori not equable.

Third, this ERD problem touted as an answer when in facto ERD is a measure removed from actual wheel building...as in the preceding statement.

Bowlstirred by the continuing belligerent attitude of SpookCalcs not not state the inaccuracy in interests of honestly and integrity for serving the cycling public: sheer ignorance.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/17/2015 6:10 AM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 11:36:44 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/16/2015 5:58 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Monday, February 16, 2015 at 10:06:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/16/2015 10:44 AM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> well, not that I'm soldering spokes tomorrow but can Andy or JB give an estimate of how
>>>> stiffer a 36 700c is with tie n solder n standard ?
>>>>
>>>> If I'm allowed to guess, I'll say zero percent stiffer.
>>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tied-soldered.html It looks cool, and I thought it made a
>> difference, but when you think of how a tension structure works, it
>> shouldn't make a
>> difference.
>>
>> The measurements mentioned in the article by Jobst certainly don't
>> surprise me.
>>
>> It's interesting, though, that you thought it made a difference. That's
>> evidence that we're influenced by our expectations. I think about that
>> almost every time I read another "stiff but compliant" road test.
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> gnaw...you jest ? a shorter tension structure is stiffer than a longer tension structure.

Did you read the test results in the link?

Bicycles generate lots of by-gosh-by-golly speculation that doesn't work
out in actual measurements.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

link ?

[Frank Krygowski]

It's visible above. At least, on my screen.

- Frank Krygowski

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

cmon Frank, I posted the link.

Look, Brandt skewed his data collection with a Wheelsmith MTO wheel or 2...like ERD. ERDERDERD just guess a few mm here or there for the final answer.

use my 8 spoke beam method. screw ERD.

Lookit Beattie's ouvreview...ERD has spoke lengths all over the map.

If Brandt was trying for quantified objectivity then there would be 2-3-4 wheels of various calibers.

BUTNO ! Its JPL all over again.....

[John B. Slocomb]

Re: Stiff but compliant: Perhaps the writer doesn't understand English
:-) I've read that the American schools now turns out poorly educated
individuals :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

They may be crappy and dysfunctional but it's a really
expensive system.

[avag...@gmail.com]

nnnnnnnnnnnnnn

once upon there was a racer with a soldering iron. he awoke one morning with the idea solder/wiring spokes at intersections was maybe positive.

The wheels looked good, He sold RCA for a living.

He won.

Soldering iron sales went up.

He bought a boat

the rest is history

[Frank Krygowski]

So in our state, they've re-routed a lot of the tax money into privately
run charter schools. Which, it turns out, are even more crappy, even
more dysfunctional and even more expensive. Kids on the roster don't
bother to attend, passing rates are worse than public schools...

But the corporations that run them are really profitable! That helps
finance the bribes... no, wait, um, campaign contributions that make the
charter schools possible.

There's now talk about (gasp!) making charter schools actually meet the
standards that public schools have to meet. Damn, more government
interference with the free market!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

interference with the free market!

so Ohio advocates cancelling all student aid programs unless Jay Gould runs the show ? Or Alfred Vail ?

where would Ohio be then ?

[Ian Field]

<avag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:15aef58c-613a-444c...@googlegroups.com...

That fluxite advert probably opened a whole nother can of worms.

[avag...@gmail.com]

WORMS INFLUX ?

[John B. Slocomb]

Well, I suppose that one out of three is pretty good :-)

But as an aside, my father enrolled in the University of New Hampshire
in, probably, 1926, or 27. My grandfather was probably raising
chickens for a living, but was doing it without hired hands so it must
have been a smallish operation, maybe a couple thousand chickens.

But, the point is that the entire cost of my father's collage
education was born by his parents.

What happened?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/18/2015 10:14 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
>
> But, the point is that the entire cost of my father's collage
> education was born by his parents.
>
> What happened?

Several things, I think.

One is that college campuses are vastly different places than when I
attended - at least, mine is. Just before I began attending, classes
were still held in old quonset huts. I had classes in old attics of
ancient houses on campus, or the pipe-filled basement of some utility
building. New buildings on campus are, relatively speaking, palaces.

Another is that administration costs have soared. When I began teaching
at the university, one man was the provost (i.e. VP in charge of
academics) and he had one secretary. The provost now has an 11 person
staff - three associate provosts, three various directors, etc.

Some of the reason for that may be the ever-increasing paperwork burden.
Governments and accrediting agencies (there are many) all impose
unfunded mandates. Somebody has to do all the work of generating those
mountains of forms and documents.

Some of the reason is the rise of special interest groups. One upon a
time, there were no administrators charged with looking out for the
special needs of veterans, women, dark-skinned people, people with
varying sexual preferences, etc. Now, if you can produce evidence you
are somehow different, you have a shot at getting a special campus
office to look out for you.

Once upon a time, athletics was somehow subsidiary to academics and
laboratory equipment. Now I'm told (by a former athlete, who complains
about the senselessness of it!) that athletic locker rooms all have
super-comfortable lounges, wide screen TVs and many other amenities.
Athletic budgets have grown far faster than academic budgets. (BTW, at
the same time, I know faculty who had to sneak in on a weekend and paint
their own conference room because it was such an embarrassment when
hosting visitors. Supposedly, the university couldn't afford to paint it.)

And once upon a time, the state actually thought education was a good
investment. State support for schools of all levels has plummeted, but
particularly for colleges and universities. But in our case, at least,
the governor brags that he's reduced the state budget. He's really just
passed the costs on to others in the state - and the profits to the
charter school businesses. But strictly speaking, that's a
semi-separate topic.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B. Slocomb]

It appears that collage, "a place to go to learn something", has now
morphed into Collage, a place that I can't afford to go to".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Frank, that's a well written overview. Since that aquarium
is now turned into fish soup I don't see a path forward.

[avag...@gmail.com]

agree...time for The Tour of Bonne Dune...