Road Discs

[jbeattie]

So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

-- Jay Beattie.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

I have no experience with disc brakes. None. If building my new dream bike, it would be rim brake. I know rim brakes. Rim brakes are easy to work on. I'm not against learning new things, like disc brakes. But don't see the need. They are not as simple to work on or understand as rim brakes. In all my riding, I've always been able to stop just fine with rim brakes. Loaded touring bike down the Alps, Dolomites, Rockys. Never a problem. Never over heated a rim or burnt up brake pads. I've also ridden in rain and stopped just fine too. Maybe in emergency situations in the rain, the performance improvement of disc would matter. Maybe. But I don't ride crazy and ever need to stop instantly. And disc brakes still need time, distance to stop just like rim brakes. Maybe less distance but I don't see that ever really mattering to me. So my dream bike of the future would have rim brakes.

[Duane]

Well my 2 cents - you say you won't be riding it in any of the conditions
that seem to be indicative for disc brakes. So, in my opinion waiting
until December makes no sense. I'd go for the bike I can get now.

Who the f*ck you calling a curmudgeon? :-).

--
duane

[John B.]

On Sat, 9 Sep 2017 15:28:55 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>
wrote:

Firstly it is not an "Antique". It is a "Classic".
(ask Andrew I believe he drives one :-)

Secondly buy whatever YOU want.
(one assumes you married the one YOU wanted and from your posts that
seems to have worked out pretty well :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ned Mantei]

I have bikes with rim brakes and one with disc brakes. My experience:

1) With rim brakes obviously the rims will wear out after some years. I
spoke new rims to the old hub and spokes. Since I have very little
practice doing this, it takes me maybe 4 hours to get the spokes
transferred, the wheel reasonably centered and round, and the spokes
evenly tensioned.

2) I bought a mountain bike with disc brakes last October. The first
change of brake pads came in April, and a few days ago I had to install
a new disc on the back wheel (the original disc was worn to the safe
limit). Both things are a lot quicker than spoking a rim, but at least
here in Switzerland rather expensive.

3) With rim brakes I would have pain in my hands from braking during a
long descent in the mountains. Much less or no problem with disc brakes,
which require less pressure. But I'm old, and a younger person probably
wouldn't notice this.

4) Again as an issue on very long descents, I no longer worry about a
tube failure because the rim overheated (happened to me once many years
ago, https://flic.kr/p/9XmmWn ). Disc brakes can also overheat, and then
fade, but this hasn't been a problem for me.

Overall I prefer the disc brakes, but should note that I have no
experience with road bikes.

Ned

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

That would be a difficult choice for me if I had to buy a new road bike now. Waiting a couple of months would not be an argument, that is silly. Disc for road bikes are coming that is for sure and they do brake an order of a magnitude better than rim brakes in the wet which I found out again during my trip this year to the Dolomites in bad weather. Set up properly they are very low maintenance (my cross bike). The only argument against them is the weight penalty of about 500 to 1000 grams. In one of the last issues of TOUR magazine they measured no aero penalty to their and my surprise. Once the pro riders going to use disc brakes rim brakes will get obsolete if you like it or not. What I see is that more and more road bikes offered for the next season are disc only...

Lou

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Ned, my experience is that the so-called advantages of disk brakes are their downfall.

1. Where you need the brakes the most - descents particularly on twisting roads or sharp turns and the like - you have your hands on the brakes. Disks are so powerful that if you hit a bump you are very likely to pull on the brakes while trying to keep yourself from being thrown off of the bike. This pulls the brake on and with all it's power can stop the front wheel completely rotating the entire bike around the front wheel. Voice of experience.

2. Because the whole idea is power the leverage has to be effectively very high. This means the distance of motion must be very low since the lever has limited motion due to your hand size. So brake pads are VERY thin and because they are small they wear very rapidly.

3. Yes it's easier to replace a disk than a rim. In 40 years of riding I've had to replace one rim from brake pad wear. Since I built many wheels it took me a half hour from start to finish. But of course I do have a wheel stand and spoke tools. Now in Switzerland you may have a hell of a lot more sharp and dangerous descents than we do around here but in the last five years on just ONE altimeter that I used on only some of my bikes I do have 57,000 feet of climbing shown. I have worn some brake shoes to the extent that I replaced them. But only on super-light alloy wheels have I ever shown extensive wear. And I find buying new wheels generally cheaper than buying a new rim. I just bought two sets of Campy Scirocco CX's (stronger than the road version) for $240 per set. These are cheap wheels but I am getting tired of spokes breaking on the lighter road wheels.

[AMuzi]

No suggestion on your specific question but speaking as an
Industry Professional, I think my record for selling one
customer his "final perfect bike to last the rest of my
life" is six bicycles, 3 or 4 is amazingly common. Many of
those guys will be back again too.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-09 15:28, jbeattie wrote:
> So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
> Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night.

> I've done that many times ...


Consider an alarm that starts blaring in the house if left open and no
movement in the area for xx minutes. Or an automatic (but safe) closure
function that can be disabled during times you work in there. A bright
or blinking light in the hallway or something might already suffice. It
would alert you or your family that the garage is still open. Especially
at night before bed time when you turn off all light but there is this
remaining weird glow in the hallway.

I've had days when I walked the dogs and someone's garage was open, with
nice CF bikes and expensive tools in there, nobody around. Then I ring
their door bell and it's usually "Oh dang! Thanks!".


> ... -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a

> gravel bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a
> great bike).
>
> The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring
> sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a
> nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model
> will not be available until December -- which really means that I get
> to ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim
> brake model by the end of the month.
>
> All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the
> Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong

> group to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, ...


<ahem> ... <grumble>


> ...but if you were

> buying your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It
> will be a dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad
> luck. There would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so
> light to start with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero
> penalty with discs.
>

Disc. 100%. If my current road bike ever needs to be replaced disc
brakes are a non-negotiable requirement for me. Preferably hydraulic
though that's not common with brifters which I wouldn't need but any
road or CX bikes seems to have these days.

> My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance
> issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim
> brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are
> going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!
>

Nah. Rim brake pads will be available for decades. At least until you
and I are in a nursing home.

However, dry weather is not always that dry. Consider a big rain storm
of which you have many up there. Then the sun comes out and you think
that this ought to be the perfect time to ride. Still nice and cool but
no rain. At 20mph you go through a long puddle, no big deal. Then right
afterwards grandpa Miller doesn't see you and pulls out of the gas
station right in front of you. You hit the brakes ... two seconds of ...
nothing.

I even had brake delay when I rode through overspray from landscaping
sprinklers next to the road. On a 100F day that is a refreshing event.
Until you need the brakes right there.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[AMuzi]

Joerg, all the current Campagnolo Ergo shifters are
hydraulic brake and also cable compatible.
https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/news/first-look-campagnolos-much-anticipated-disc-brake

[jbeattie]

I prefer discs in rain, but I've never had problems with stopping a rim brake in the rain except once on a very poorly adjusted cantilever. You do get the momentary free-fall in really wet weather that is much less on discs, but riding in slightly wet weather is no big deal with rim brakes and aluminum rims. If I were on CF rims in the rain on a steep descent with rim brakes, I be scared.

I really don't want to wait and will probably get a rim brake, but who knows. I'm pondering. I was riding today with some friends and getting throttled -- because I'm older and slower this year but also because of my lumbering disc-brake gravel bike. Sorry, man, it is about the bike. Gaps between me and my cohorts are consistently smaller when I'm on my fast bike -- even the semi-fast Roubaix. I want my light bike back.

And my discs did not give me some wild advantage on the descents as claimed by others, e.g., "I can brake later in the turn and keep up more speed." What? Braking is braking. I don't brake any differently on my disc bike than my rim-brake bike, and my speed in or out of the turn is often determined by the amount of crap on the road and the crown camber. My friends were on rim brakes, and our places at the bottom of a twisting descent were the same as always -- and the only difference is that I had a draggy disc that was noisy for a minute until the piston withdrew fully. I don't know what's up with that, but apart from the noise, it doesn't slow me down. Anyway, I didn't feel like I had any great advantage. And when its wet, we all slow down because of low traction and not because of inadequate brakes. Nonetheless, I do like he power and modulation of discs, and they are clearly superior in rain.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Andre Jute]

On Saturday, September 9, 2017 at 11:28:59 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

I agree with Lou, you can wait until December if you really want discs. But I don't think obsolescence is all that likely; for the next several decades there will thousands of heritage bikes requiring parts for rim brakes.

I have bikes with roller brakes (good, bad and ugly, the ugly the strong and sudden latest model from Shimano which require constant attention if you want to avoid a face plant), discs (constant maintenance because they chew pads, a pain in the ass), standard rim brakes, and hydraulic rim brakes.

I really love the hydraulic rim brakes for their progressive nature, though I understood from the snide remarks from the usual one-size-fits-all idiots on RBT when I specified the hydraulic rim brakes without the booster on my Utopia that you can set them up to be quite as nastily sudden and unpleasant as Shimano's latest roller brakes. You might consider the Magura hydraulic rim brakes a 622 (rim size) disc brake: all the components are there, hydraulic calipers, but with pads (which last an immensely long time, my set now having lasted 10K though admittedly I don't commute and hardly ever use the brakes on downhills) and very fine control being possible if it matters to you (it might in traffic).

On the subject of pads, you can buy pads of many different specifications for hydraulic rim brakes: they look just like standard pads. I don't ride often in the wet but I live on and among steep hills and generally ride as fast as I can, so sometimes I need good brakes in the wet, and for this I have no complaint about the standard Magura pads for the hydraulic rim brakes, and bought spares of the same for when the current set wears out, possibly after another 10K; I haven't been tempted by the pads advertised as especially for wet weather, and well thought of by all-season commuters and major tourers other groups.

Something to ponder: under any and all circumstances, retardation (i.e. braking performance) is limited by the frictional interface between tyre and road; rainwater acts as a sort of lubricant and thereby in most cases reduces retardation. Skids are often the result of brake-clamping exceeding road-tyre friction. There are no modern bicycle brakes known to me that cannot be arranged to exceed road-tyre friction; you'll probably have to go back to spoon brakes to find a brake that incompetent. This train of thought is an argument for smoothly progressive brake take-up, long-movement handlebar controls, and minimal force multiplication in the connection between handlebar control and pad (on discs this means choosing -- if there is a choice -- the larger rather than the smaller expansion chamber in the caliper; unfortunately, there is no longer a choice of caliper chamber size on the Magura Rim Hydraulics). The larger the disc between the pads, the easier a progressive skid-avoiding response is to arrange. And there is no larger revolving disc on a bike than the rim. Rim hydraulics add virtually no weight over other rim brakes and save a lot on hub-mounted discs.

Before I go, one more data point: Shimano disc brakes on my mountain bike required new pads every thousand miles, max, in the winter sooner, and on my Gazelle the front disc was no better behaved nor more economical of my time or pocket. On my Utopia with rim hydraulics, albeit a different class of bike used in a different manner, 20,000K seems reachable on a single set of pads, and replacement takes seconds rather than hours.

Andre Jute
All things in moderation, even moderation itself

[cycl...@gmail.com]

It absolutely does slow you down. You just don't notice like when your front derailleur is dragging up a hill and then you get it properly adjusted and you can tell the difference.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On my CX bike I mounted TRP 9.0 V-brakes and have never used anything better off-road. As Beattie said, I've never been limited to speed around a corner by how late into the turn I could wait before applying a brake.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 3:59:54 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped

> I prefer discs in rain, but I've never had problems with stopping a rim brake in the rain except once on a very poorly adjusted cantilever. You do get the momentary free-fall in really wet weather that is much less on discs, but riding in slightly wet weather is no big deal with rim brakes and aluminum rims. If I were on CF rims in the rain on a steep descent with rim brakes, I be scared.
>
> I really don't want to wait and will probably get a rim brake, but who knows. I'm pondering. I was riding today with some friends and getting throttled -- because I'm older and slower this year but also because of my lumbering disc-brake gravel bike. Sorry, man, it is about the bike. Gaps between me and my cohorts are consistently smaller when I'm on my fast bike -- even the semi-fast Roubaix. I want my light bike back.
>
> And my discs did not give me some wild advantage on the descents as claimed by others, e.g., "I can brake later in the turn and keep up more speed." What? Braking is braking. I don't brake any differently on my disc bike than my rim-brake bike, and my speed in or out of the turn is often determined by the amount of crap on the road and the crown camber. My friends were on rim brakes, and our places at the bottom of a twisting descent were the same as always -- and the only difference is that I had a draggy disc that was noisy for a minute until the piston withdrew fully. I don't know what's up with that, but apart from the noise, it doesn't slow me down. Anyway, I didn't feel like I had any great advantage. And when its wet, we all slow down because of low traction and not because of inadequate brakes. Nonetheless, I do like he power and modulation of discs, and they are clearly superior in rain.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

About 10 years ago my buddy bought a $1,500.00 CDN DaVinci MTB and rode it MOSTLY on paved roads and a few times on crushed limestone stone-dust rail trails oron very easy non-technical trails in a preserve near here. He went through disc pads very quickly to the point that he swapped wheels and put on V-brakes instead. None of the shops here, eventhe one specializing in MTBs and cyclo-cross could figure out why his pads wore out so quicly nor did they ever get the bike to stop eating disc pads at a very fast rate.

Cheers

[sms]

On 9/9/2017 3:28 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

At one place I owned I installed a device that automatically closes the
garage door after three minutes unless you disable it. I used the timer
for the light bulbs on the garage door opener to trigger a relay that
shorted the open/close terminals momentarily. I need to build another
one since I've done the same thing as you on occasion.

> The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring
sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a
nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model
will not be available until December -- which really means that I get to
ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake
model by the end of the month.
>
> All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the
Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group
to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying
your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a
dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There
would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start
with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.
>
> My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance
issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes
-- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the
way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

I SPIT on rim brakes.

Go for a titanium frame with disc brakes. <https://www.deanbikes.com/>

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[avag...@gmail.com]

Awww condolances...inside job. Bummer bummer.

Jay....you bought a try with gravel geometry ..whose at that shop...eyeball JD ?

Fairly, buy a bike with discs. Throw darts....

Have you visited n ridden around Teton ?

[jbeattie]

Yes, the Tetons are on the TransAm route. I stayed in a rescue mission in Jackson Hole and had to suffer through a sermon to get a spot on the floor for my sleeping bag. And then these other guys talked all night -- some guy from Alaska talking about grizzly bears. I kid you not. Shut the f*** up! I hurt my knee grinding gears and popped a pain pill, which put me to sleep. My girlfriend had to stay in the girl's dorm, which was plush by comparison.

Side story: my father was a small town pharmacist and put together a bag of drugs -- from antibiotics, anti-nausea/diarrhea, pain pills, etc. A physician and family friend signed the scripts. Dr. Jones -- he looked like he was right out of Norman Rockwell painting.

- Jay Beattie.

[Ralph Barone]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> I SPIT on rim brakes.
>

Maybe that's your problem. Word on the street is that they don't work well
when wet. :-)

[Gregory Sutter]

On 2017-09-09, jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask because it's
> wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last nice
> road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs?

Jay,

Discs, but the #1 reason is so you can readily use wider tires.
(Insert the BQ reasoning here. tl;dr? More comfort, more grip,
no less speed.)

Were I to buy tomorrow, my next last bike would be this:
https://opencycle.com/UP

--
Gregory S. Sutter Mostly Harmless
mailto:gsu...@zer0.org
http://zer0.org/~gsutter/

[Tosspot]

I'm discs all round, but imho, a road bike looks better with rim brakes.
Aesthetics is all there is in it for me.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Tom you are the only one I know that have this problem. Descending a twisty steep road you are in the drops with a finger on the lever. Bumps give a vertical motion, braking need a horizontal motions.

On my cross bike off road I am on the hoods all the time and even then I have no problems with bumps, drops or whatever.

Either you have shitty brakes, poor technique or bumps we don't have here, even off road.

Lou

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-10 10:53, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/10/2017 11:35 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-09-09 15:28, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

>>> My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a
>>> performance
>>> issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem
>>> with rim
>>> brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim
>>> brakes are
>>> going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an
>>> antique!
>>>
>>
>> Nah. Rim brake pads will be available for decades. At least
>> until you and I are in a nursing home.
>>
>> However, dry weather is not always that dry. Consider a big
>> rain storm of which you have many up there. Then the sun
>> comes out and you think that this ought to be the perfect
>> time to ride. Still nice and cool but no rain. At 20mph you
>> go through a long puddle, no big deal. Then right afterwards
>> grandpa Miller doesn't see you and pulls out of the gas
>> station right in front of you. You hit the brakes ... two
>> seconds of ... nothing.
>>
>> I even had brake delay when I rode through overspray from
>> landscaping sprinklers next to the road. On a 100F day that
>> is a refreshing event. Until you need the brakes right there.
>>
>
> Joerg, all the current Campagnolo Ergo shifters are hydraulic brake and
> also cable compatible.
> https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/news/first-look-campagnolos-much-anticipated-disc-brake
>

Ah, finally, progress! Thanks, I didn't know that. However, doesn't
Campagnolo stuff have price levels like Gucci apparel?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Yeah, that's a really great idea when just the couplers on that bike are $900. For my entire totally reconditioned Pinarello I'll have less with new Campy wheels and a record group.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Lou, I haven't any idea at all how you ride. Telling me I don't know how to ride is pretty silly when apparently you ride a cruiser around on flat roads on a campus or some such where you never see real bumps.

One finger on the brakes indeed! Apparently you ride down hills at 40+ mph with your hands off of the bars.

[avag...@gmail.com]

amazing amazing .... I am impressed. Farthest I go is over the hill n back, 100 miles no more. No stamina. Your dad feed you vitamins ?

traveling often have a boat hull on the van roof.

the canoe carrier canoe supports, canoes mount upside down, are 2 wider than hull 2x8's. The new Encounter thwarts match the 2/8 so I bought a humongous Bosch 1.25 spade bit n chopped 2 holes thru ...the tuba ....for chains n combos.

There's an Omega shock sensor under the rack deck/canoe carrier.

I am unreal paranoid abt leaving stuff exposed. Oregon n Cal are esp difficult. There's a pathological criminal or crazed mill worker under every rock n slab

[jbeattie]

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 9:11:16 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/9/2017 5:28 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).
> >
> > The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.
> >
> > All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.
> >
> > My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!
>

> No suggestion on your specific question but speaking as an
> Industry Professional, I think my record for selling one
> customer his "final perfect bike to last the rest of my
> life" is six bicycles, 3 or 4 is amazingly common. Many of
> those guys will be back again too.

So much of this is just market-driven angst. Discs have a nice feel and are powerful and do work better in the rain, but that is different from rim brakes being inadequate or dangerous.

People develop a preference and then the last-thing becomes unworkable or dangerous. "I used to ride 23mm tires, but 25s are so much more positive. You'll die riding 23mm tires!" Then I think, "didn't I race on 19mm and 21mm?"

I was talking to my son yesterday, and he rides an Emonda with rim brakes and CF wheels. So, I asked him "where did you ride today," and he says Big Cottonwood with some side routes and a climb on the way home -- maybe 6,000 -7,000 feet of climbing and some seriously steep descending on the side routes. Any problems? No. His friends use rim brakes, and they do ridiculous amounts of climbing -- one just did 31,000 feet in a day (the whole Everest thing). And then I think back on my decades of rim brake experience and wonder why I'm even worried -- except for the anxiety caused by choices. Not that discs would be super-sweet and maybe even reduce some hand fatigue, but the idea that they are necessary or that rim brakes are dangerous is kind of out there.


-- Jay Beattie.

[Doug Landau]

On Saturday, September 9, 2017 at 3:28:59 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).
>
> The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.
>
> All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.
>
> My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!
>

> -- Jay Beattie.

FATE has given you another chance to redeem yourself

http://bikesdirect.com/products/road_bikes.htm#discbrake

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 9:43:20 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>
> Ah, finally, progress! Thanks, I didn't know that. However, doesn't
> Campagnolo stuff have price levels like Gucci apparel?
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>

Only if you buy your Campagnolo from USA stores. For good prices on Campagnolo, order from German, France, Britain internet shops. Not much different than Shimano prices. And Shimano is much cheaper from Europe too. If you buy bike parts from the USA, you are way over spending.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Tom, I'm not telling you that you don't know how to ride and poor technique wasn't my first option why you warn people that riding over a bump can lock your front wheel with (too) powerful disk brakes. That makes me more curious.

Tom I ride a cross bike with disk brakes off road, it doesn't get bumpier that that even here in pancake flat Netherlands.

We don't have any mountains that is true but I live in the hilly part of the Netherlands, Joerg is always talking about and close to Belgium where they have the worst roads. However the real famous mountains are only one day drive away. One or two times a year I spend a week there and that for almost 30 years so I did my share of climbing and descending.

He, look even without any finger on the brakes:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ztXTQaSqdl7RRs8B3

Even on the descent of the Stelvio I and many others don't need more than two fingers on the brake lever (rimbrakes):

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6yb8NpaAhgHp9s2w2

So why you replaced your disk brakes with V brakes remains a mystery to me.

Lou

[Joerg]

I found it's quite ok if bought at large discount stores such as Jenson
and Nashbar or via EBay.

The topper recently was Mr.Tuffy tire liner for road bikes. $1.25 for a
pair plus $3.99 shipping. Ok, that was an auction but was new and came
from a bike place.

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-11 12:56, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

> Tom I ride a cross bike with disk brakes off road, it doesn't get
> bumpier that that even here in pancake flat Netherlands.
>

Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y38JzV-ueXI

> We don't have any mountains that is true but I live in the hilly part
> of the Netherlands, Joerg is always talking about and close to
> Belgium where they have the worst roads.

Yes, you have a mountain. Drielandenpunt and it's 321.5m. The Dutch
insisted that the half meter was always mentioned.


> ... However the real famous

> mountains are only one day drive away. One or two times a year I
> spend a week there and that for almost 30 years so I did my share of
> climbing and descending.
>
> He, look even without any finger on the brakes:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ztXTQaSqdl7RRs8B3
>

Hey, my sister participated in the Maratona D'les Dolomites.

> Even on the descent of the Stelvio I and many others don't need more
> than two fingers on the brake lever (rimbrakes):
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/6yb8NpaAhgHp9s2w2
>
> So why you replaced your disk brakes with V brakes remains a mystery
> to me.
>

Ever since I rode a bike with disc brakes for the first time I never
looked back and any new bikes must have discs or I won't buy.

[sms]

Jay is not price-sensitive. All he has to do is bill a few more hours to
pay for a Dean Titanium. And the couplers are not required.

[Doug Landau]

Gravity Zilla $699

[sms]

On 9/11/2017 2:35 PM, Doug Landau wrote:

<snip>

> Gravity Zilla $699

I'd wait for bikesdirect to get their Ultegra Titanium disc road bikes
back in stock. They sell out very fast since most serious riders are
moving from carbon fiber to titanium now. Then get a CroMo disc fork.

<http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/disc-brake-roadbikes/centuryelt-ti-discbrake-road-ltd.html>.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Your youTube video gives a rough idea of an off-road ride. Now give it three times the descent and using a CX bike you have NO SUSPENSION. You have to keep yourself back on the saddle with pressure on the bars by your hands. On a flat bar bike such as the one you should it's plain that you can not have one or two fingers on the levers but have your entire hand over the levers with your palms pressing yourself back onto the saddle.

This idea that lou has of "riding over a bump" seems to ignore the fact that you hit a bump at high speed and there is a sudden jar as you strike the bump. Precisely how do you ride "over" such a bump. Looking over the edge of the rocky parts of your video down the side of the mountain is the sort of descent I crashed on. Though the trail wasn't covered with stones but instead 3-6" deep ditches running 70 or 80 degrees to the line of travel.

I could no doubt ride down the Stelvio barely touching the brakes on a rim brake bike. I ride down the north side of Mt Diablo and touch the brakes very seldom and can pass most people including the Chris Froome wannabes. I have watched them disappear into my rear view sunglasses mounted mirror trying to keep up. Not because I'm attempting to drop them but because they don't know how to ride around other people and are dangerous. I ride down several of the other hills in the area without even touching the brakes as the speed goes above 40 mph.

I have raced motorcycles semi-professionally and was a professional flat track mechanic. I have a great deal better knowledge of cornering than most people. The sheer egotism of people that could say that someone they don't know anything about doesn't know how to ride is pretty funny.

I wouldn't have thought to have criticized lou's knowledge of riding until he made comments like he has.

You like disk brakes and that's fine. I suggest that if you ride them much on a road bike you will soon change your mind.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 3:10:11 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> On 9/11/2017 2:35 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Gravity Zilla $699
>
> I'd wait for bikesdirect to get their Ultegra Titanium disc road bikes
> back in stock. They sell out very fast since most serious riders are
> moving from carbon fiber to titanium now. Then get a CroMo disc fork.
>
> <http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/disc-brake-roadbikes/centuryelt-ti-discbrake-road-ltd.html>.

Remember what I said about titanium bikes being liable to crack around the weld joints. This appears to happen very rapidly or not at all. But definitely look for it before your rides.

I had both a Colnago Bi-Titan and another Colnago titanium bike of standard build. Both of them were pretty damn stiff. So of course I went to carbon fiber which made those bikes feel like rubber bands. My Time Edge could NOT be ridden off of a smooth race track.

[jbeattie]

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 2:08:35 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

My two surviving bikes have discs -- one mechanical (commuter) and one hydraulic (gravel). In dry weather on the road, hydraulic brakes are overkill -- and in fact, I prefer dual pivots in dry weather because they are simple, work well and never drag unless I break a spoke, which is rare.

Rim brakes are lighter, simpler (no bleeding, etc.), cheaper (pad costs), less noisy and great at stopping. Discs are better in wet weather, in slop and trail descending where braking is used to steer and grades are above 30%. They certainly make sense on a foul weather bike or mountain bike.

My main reason for having a disc commuter is rim wear. Six months of riding in the rain will wear out rims after a few years (or less). In the 30 years of commuting before getting discs, I stopped just fine but wore out rims.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Mark J.]

Jay, I think you've answered your own question well and completely. For
a dry-weather fast on-road bike, rim brakes will do the job. Always
have. I like the disks on my commuter too - though they squeak a lot -
but that's a completely different type of riding (in Oregon, anyway).

I sense your original question really was "am I missing anything?" I'd
say mostly not.

The one thing I can think of is that with disks, you can often fit
really large tires, in case you want to take your fast road bike on a
gravel-grinder race some day. Not much to base a purchase on, unless
you really have an itch for gravel racing.

Sorry about your double bike loss.

Mark J.

[jbeattie]

Even if I were made of money, I wouldn't spend a ton on a bike. I'm getting a pro deal on my next bike because I do work for the manufacturer -- and its a great bike. It will be my designated fast bike (or as-fast-as-I-get bike). It's replacing my SuperSix, RIP.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

We have some of those, but more than 3x. I use to ride those with my old
MTB but no sus so it gave me lower back pain. My L4-5-6 are pretty much
hosed.


> ... You have to keep yourself back on the saddle with

> pressure on the bars by your hands. On a flat bar bike such as the
> one you should it's plain that you can not have one or two fingers on
> the levers but have your entire hand over the levers with your palms
> pressing yourself back onto the saddle.
>

That would result in a predictable crash. You have to go behind the
saddle and "belly-ride" a bit. Else your CG would be way too much
forward and you'd have an endo, prontissimo. I usually have one or two
fingers on the brake levers. That's all you need with good hydraulic
disc brakes.

> This idea that lou has of "riding over a bump" seems to ignore the
> fact that you hit a bump at high speed and there is a sudden jar as
> you strike the bump. Precisely how do you ride "over" such a bump.

You've got to stay loose, also with the hands a bit. Forcing the
handlebar and thus the bike to follow exactly the path you want it a
recipe for disaster when there are rocks where you don't know which ones
shift and which ones don't. Which is a common scenerios out here.

> Looking over the edge of the rocky parts of your video down the side
> of the mountain is the sort of descent I crashed on. Though the trail
> wasn't covered with stones but instead 3-6" deep ditches running 70
> or 80 degrees to the line of travel.
>

That cliff in the video has killed. Guy went over on his MTB, airborne,
smacked onto the rocks at the bottom :-(

> I could no doubt ride down the Stelvio barely touching the brakes on
> a rim brake bike. I ride down the north side of Mt Diablo and touch
> the brakes very seldom and can pass most people including the Chris
> Froome wannabes. I have watched them disappear into my rear view
> sunglasses mounted mirror trying to keep up. Not because I'm
> attempting to drop them but because they don't know how to ride
> around other people and are dangerous. I ride down several of the
> other hills in the area without even touching the brakes as the speed
> goes above 40 mph.
>

On roads I do the same. Not on singletrack, there I try to keep it below
25mph. The older I get the lower my speeds while off-road.

> I have raced motorcycles semi-professionally and was a professional
> flat track mechanic. I have a great deal better knowledge of
> cornering than most people. The sheer egotism of people that could
> say that someone they don't know anything about doesn't know how to
> ride is pretty funny.
>
> I wouldn't have thought to have criticized lou's knowledge of riding
> until he made comments like he has.
>
> You like disk brakes and that's fine. I suggest that if you ride them
> much on a road bike you will soon change your mind.
>

Well, I have also ridden them on the road on a friend's titanium bike
and I must say it was the same as with the MTB. It has affirmed my
position of never buying a new bike with rim brakes ever again. It must

have discs or I won't buy.

[Joerg]

Yes, on a road bike and maybe even CX I'd accept mechanical disc brakes.
Never on a MTB though.

> Rim brakes are lighter, simpler (no bleeding, etc.), cheaper (pad
> costs), less noisy and great at stopping. Discs are better in wet
> weather, in slop and trail descending where braking is used to steer
> and grades are above 30%. They certainly make sense on a foul weather
> bike or mountain bike.
>
> My main reason for having a disc commuter is rim wear. Six months of
> riding in the rain will wear out rims after a few years (or less). In
> the 30 years of commuting before getting discs, I stopped just fine
> but wore out rims.
>

That's the point most people do not calculate in, rim wear. Also, pads
aren't more expensive for disc brakes if you buy Asian. The last ones
cost me $2/pair. Versus $4/par for the cheapest Clarks rim pads which
wear a whole lot faster.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 5:10:11 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> I'd wait for bikesdirect to get their Ultegra Titanium disc road bikes
> back in stock. They sell out very fast since most serious riders are
> moving from carbon fiber to titanium now. Then get a CroMo disc fork.
>

Serious riders are switching from carbon to titanium? Didn't know that. But then I don't claim to be a genius in every topic on earth. Just a couple of them for me.

Chromoly disc fork to replace a carbon disc fork? Why?

[jbeattie]

Because CF disc forks explode, leading to huge loss of life -- second only to heart disease as a cause of death in the United States. Where have you been? Mars?

Really, though, I don't know where all these "serious riders" are. I've seen zero Ti disc bikes with CroMo forks. I'll keep a closer eye on the racks at work. Last weekend, my riding cohort of engineers and industry folks were all riding CF forks, although one was riding a Ti frame last week -- and one had high-end steel. All were using rim brakes, except me on my gravel pig. I was getting throttled on the Saltzman Road climb, even though its a gravel road. Waaah! Get back here. I've got a gravel bike. I'm going to kick your ass!

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

Isn't that what Tom was talking about? Taking part of your pay in
freebies from the company you are working for :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[sms]

On 9/11/2017 4:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:

> My two surviving bikes have discs -- one mechanical (commuter) and one hydraulic (gravel). In dry weather on the road, hydraulic brakes are overkill -- and in fact, I prefer dual pivots in dry weather because they are simple, work well and never drag unless I break a spoke, which is rare.

I'd not get hydraulic disc brakes on a road bike, even on a mountain
bike mechanical discs are just fine.

Do you have descents like Kings Mountain Road or Conzelman Road in
Oregon? Rims get very hot on those descents.

[sms]

On 9/11/2017 6:40 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 5:18:38 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 5:10:11 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
>>> I'd wait for bikesdirect to get their Ultegra Titanium disc road bikes
>>> back in stock. They sell out very fast since most serious riders are
>>> moving from carbon fiber to titanium now. Then get a CroMo disc fork.
>>>
>>
>> Serious riders are switching from carbon to titanium? Didn't know that. But then I don't claim to be a genius in every topic on earth. Just a couple of them for me.
>>
>> Chromoly disc fork to replace a carbon disc fork? Why?
>
> Because CF disc forks explode, leading to huge loss of life -- second only to heart disease as a cause of death in the United States. Where have you been? Mars?

Well-stated. Pretty much what is said here:
<https://www.rivbike.com/products/carbonomas-steel-fork-1-1-8-threadless-curved>

[sms]

On 9/11/2017 6:40 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 5:18:38 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 5:10:11 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
>>> I'd wait for bikesdirect to get their Ultegra Titanium disc road bikes
>>> back in stock. They sell out very fast since most serious riders are
>>> moving from carbon fiber to titanium now. Then get a CroMo disc fork.
>>>
>>
>> Serious riders are switching from carbon to titanium? Didn't know that. But then I don't claim to be a genius in every topic on earth. Just a couple of them for me.
>>
>> Chromoly disc fork to replace a carbon disc fork? Why?
>
> Because CF disc forks explode, leading to huge loss of life -- second only to heart disease as a cause of death in the United States. Where have you been? Mars?
>
> Really, though, I don't know where all these "serious riders" are. I've seen zero Ti disc bikes with CroMo forks.

True, most riders use the CF fork that comes with the Ti bicycle. The
suggestion to switch to a CroMo fork was to prevent injury should the CF
fork fail, as they are prone to do.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/9/2017 8:24 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I have no experience with disc brakes. None. If building my new dream bike, it would be rim brake. I know rim brakes. Rim brakes are easy to work on. I'm not against learning new things, like disc brakes. But don't see the need. They are not as simple to work on or understand as rim brakes. In all my riding, I've always been able to stop just fine with rim brakes. Loaded touring bike down the Alps, Dolomites, Rockys. Never a problem. Never over heated a rim or burnt up brake pads. I've also ridden in rain and stopped just fine too. Maybe in emergency situations in the rain, the performance improvement of disc would matter. Maybe. But I don't ride crazy and ever need to stop instantly. And disc brakes still need time, distance to stop just like rim brakes. Maybe less distance but I don't see that ever really mattering to me. So my dream bike of the future would have rim brakes.

+1, except I do have just a little experience with disc brakes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/9/2017 6:28 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).
>

> The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.
>
> All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.
>
> My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

[2nd try to get Eternal September to post this:]

Downsides I've seen with discs: More more possibilities of weird
problems - like my riding buddy whose disc on his brand new bike was
making weird noises (from scraping) any time he pushed hard on a climb.
Took three tries for the shop to fix it.

More possibility of scraping in general. Saw that on another bike
tourist's disc brake bike, a constant "Shh - shh - shh". He ignored the
sound. It would have driven me nuts.

Sudden brake pad wear, down to no brakes. Happened to one bike tourist
we hosted, on a long hilly tour. If you get discs, carry spare pads.

Far less lever force, which to me is a disadvantage. I've almost never
needed to brake super-hard in an emergency; but if and when it comes up,
I don't want a bike that locks its wheels with little lever pull. It
would be like my dad's 1959 Pontiac, with hair-trigger power brakes.

As you've said, discs have certain advantages. But it sounds like those
advantages don't apply for this bike. And as a curmudgeon, I'm
duty-bound to note that cyclists have managed the corresponding
disadvantage of rim brakes for decades and decades.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 19:59:54 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

Why in the world don't titanium bicycles come with titanium forks?
I've got an aluminum bicycle with aluminum forks; I've got steel
bicycles with steel forks...

Is there something wrong with this wonder metal?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

He was talking about SMS's supposed guerilla marketing. I don't do product placement, except when I find an exceptional product like the new 92" Samsing 4721 400K curved screen TV with plasma sound and sensaround holographic 4D picture and gesture control. It's like being there. You can get it at TVdirect for half the price, although they're frequently sold-out because everybody wants one. Don't you?

-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

You can also try to insert the disk into the pads after someone pulling the lever when the wheel was removed. This can leave the pad only partially pulled back since there is play in the mechanism. As you shove the wheel in it chips or cut off a piece of the pad which not only increases the squeaking but also greatly increases the speed of wear.

On a heavy full suspension bike off-road they work very well. Anywhere else they are massive overkill.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 5:18:38 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:

I don't see this either. I can only assume this is a joke. What I am seeing is a LOT of people getting out of cycling. Sales are way down of top of the line bikes. Lower to mid level bikes for families seem to be staying stable so I can only assume that there has been a shift in the market.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Titanium is a very difficult material to manipulate. the bends for the top of the fork are extremely hard to do. Looking at a titanium bike you will see few if any bends at all.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

It must be nice to live in a 3000 sq ft home with a 1,000 sq ft living room.

[sms]

LOL, I thought that it was Frank that made up that story!

> I don't do product placement, except when I find an exceptional product like the new 92" Samsing 4721 400K curved screen TV with plasma sound and sensaround holographic 4D picture and gesture control. It's like being there. You can get it at TVdirect for half the price, although they're frequently sold-out because everybody wants one. Don't you?

I am waiting for my check from Bikesdirect. It must have been lost in
the mail, along with all the other checks that I am supposed to receive.
Darn.

Today we have other issues in my city. We are hunkered down about two
miles from ground-zero. My wife is taking an alternate route to work to
get around the police roadblocks, and her company sent out an e-mail
warning employees about the situation. We have filled the bathtub in
case water service goes out. We have stockpiled food and filled drinking
water containers. If power is interrupted we can run a small
refrigerator directly from the solar panels during the daytime, but we
have no generator. It's hot, so if electricity is lost, and the A/C goes
out, we can jump in the pool. We can cook on the propane grill, plus I
have many camping and backpacking stoves. We have charged all our phones
and tablets.

Our Android devices are safely buried in a remote location in case there
is a police search of our house. I took a risk and went out to survey
the scene early this morning. The streets are eerily quiet, but TV
satellite news trucks are pouring in to report on the situation. There
is a heavy police presence. Drones are banned with a sign reading "No
Drone Zone," though probably that's not legal. I drove north on Tantau
Avenue but the road was blocked and I had to turn around.

We are all waiting for the news reports to begin at 10:00 a.m.. Will
there be fast-charging and/or wireless charging? Will they bring back
the headphone jack? Will there be a shatterproof screen? Will there be
multi-user support?

Pray.

[sms]

It's not just in wet weather where discs have an advantage. On long
steep descents, rims overheating and causing a blowout are an issue that
riders address by stopping to allow rims to cool, or by pumping the
brakes (though it's unclear if pumping the brakes has any positive
effect). Disc brakes can also lose effectiveness when overheated, but it
won't cause a blowout.

[Doug Landau]

LOL
... but there is a learning curve with carbon forks, and the zenith has not been reached.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 11:20:47 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
> On 9/12/2017 6:49 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> >
> > He was talking about SMS's supposed guerilla marketing.
>
> LOL, I thought that it was Frank that made up that story!

I "made up" that story by reading SMS's web pages, which at the time said
something like "If you buy one of these products, please start from my pages
so I can get the commission." And in other places, those web pages bragged
that SMS "engaged in guerilla marketing in the bicycling community," etc.

I posted direct quotes and links several times, and I believe others
checked them out and verified them. After several months, SMS realized people
were on to him and either took those pages down or edited them.

> I am waiting for my check from Bikesdirect. It must have been lost in
> the mail, along with all the other checks that I am supposed to receive.
> Darn.

Another failed businessman who decided to go into politics.

- Frank Krygowski

[Doug Landau]

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 6:06:12 PM UTC-7, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> Awww condolances...inside job. Bummer bummer.

You think it was his son?

[John B.]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 06:49:44 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie

Is this the one for the bathroom?

But I'd suggest two as some are sitting and some are standing and some
are looking that way and some this way....

Problems, problems :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

That just isn't true at all. Working titanium is very much like
working stainless steel, and I'll add that while serving in Uncle
Sam's air force I've done both.

And, in fact I've come across a number of sources for titanium forks
in several different styles.
https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/titanium-bicycle-forks.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-titanium-bicycle-forks
https://www.ticycles.com/store/?category=FORK
http://www.tsbcycles.com/titanium-fork/

So how come SMS's merry group aren't using them?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

And, I notice, that only months after being elected he is buying a new
car, new bicycles, and even titanium bicycles...
--
Cheers,

John B.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Did you look at how poorly designed and constructed those things are?

[Doug Landau]

Page not found. Doesn't everything on that site suck anyway tho?

[AMuzi]

Titanium is a material, not magic. Engineers/designers who
ignore physics fail in titanium as they would have failed in
any other medium:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html

(I have a wonderful Ti road bike with matching Ti fork, no
complaints)

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[sms]

On 9/13/2017 9:17 AM, Doug Landau wrote:

<snip>

> Page not found. Doesn't everything on that site suck anyway tho?

I found a titanium fork on Aliexpress. I shortened the
URL.http://tinyurl.com/titaniumfork

[Doug Landau]

Made by whom? Thanks

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 10:41:29 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

Those pictures are pretty awful. How do you get braze to stick to titanium? I thought that titanium couldn't be brazed but required welding.

[AMuzi]

Mine's the very last Panasonic PICS sold in the USA,
September 1989. That and probably the very first one are here:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/pana.html

[AMuzi]

You're right about working/joining Ti.

It was a complete mess so farther down the page you can see
my replacement CrMo fabrication with forged steel ends.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

My memory of the steel Japanese brands were exquisite quality but because of that a little more weight than other brands.

[John B.]

Which ones? They look like most of the forks I've seen.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

The first reference goes to a page with titanium forks. The second
pops up a "page not found" notice and then you can search for
"titanium forks".

I didn't study each fork offered in detail but generally I'd say that
seem to be straight tube forks similar to many shown on
http://tinyurl.com/yd5bdx4y


--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Technically titanium can be silver soldered using pure silver or pure
aluminum, I believe, although I don't find a reference for joint
strength and all the titanium I've seen fabricated was welded in an
inert atmosphere.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

By all means ride a silver soldered titanium fork. Aluminum won't flow so you cannot "braze" a lug with it.

All of the forks that I looked at had the extremely bad design of a straight steerer with legs welded onto the sides of it. I have used steel versions of this and the legs bow out and the tire hits the steerer. As proof of this the paint was torn off of the top inside of the fork and the tire had it's rubber worn down rapidly.

[Roger Merriman]

jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
> So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
> Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
> done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
> bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).
>

> The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport
> riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike
> that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be
> available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in
> dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.
>
> All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix
> and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask
> because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last
> nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry
> weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would
> be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm
> not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.
>
> My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue
> because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but
> to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of
> the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!
>

> -- Jay Beattie.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for
the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!

Roger Merriman

[cycl...@gmail.com]

As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.

[AMuzi]

On 9/24/2017 4:16 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 2:11:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
>>> So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
>>> Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
>>> done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
>>> bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).
>>>
>>> The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport
>>> riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike
>>> that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be
>>> available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in
>>> dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.
>>>
>>> All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix
>>> and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask
>>> because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last
>>> nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry
>>> weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would
>>> be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm
>>> not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.
>>>
>>> My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue
>>> because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but
>>> to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of
>>> the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!
>>>
>>> -- Jay Beattie.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

>> You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
>> lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for

>> the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!
>
> As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.
>
> A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.
>

There's a subtlety to that.
Front DP calipers offer more braking power where it matters.
Rear SP are plenty strong enough to skid and are lighter, so
DP rear is, in Campagnolo's analysis, unnecessary.

[John B.]

>>> You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
>>> lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for

>>> the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!
>>
>> As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.
>>
>> A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.
>>
>
>There's a subtlety to that.
>Front DP calipers offer more braking power where it matters.
>Rear SP are plenty strong enough to skid and are lighter, so
>DP rear is, in Campagnolo's analysis, unnecessary.

Automobiles have been doing this for some years now. A honking great
set of disks on the front and puny little drums on the rear :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

The 105 hydraulic brakes on my Norco modulate really well, and I'm not worried about locking them up -- and they really quieted down after I installed some expensive metal pads and removed the OE resin-organic. I bought the expensive finned pads. I could have folded $20 bills and used those. What a rip-off. I'm going to the cheap-o non-finned pads the next time.

Anyway, today's ride involved about 50 miles of tempo riding with three other guys over mostly rolling terrain. We were on rough road, and it got squirrely in one place, but I never felt like I was going to jam on the brakes and cause a crash. I could easily ride discs in a race if I were still racing. Do I need them in dry weather? No. Not even on a long descent. I've never gotten hand cramps from road descents -- not even on a fully loaded touring bike in the Rockies or Sierra. Trail is different, and they're great on a rain bike or on CF wheels.

I'm getting used to the Norco Search but still can't wait for my peppy road bike to be delivered.The Norco is pretty plush on the rough roads, even with 25mm tires. It makes my CAADX commuter feel like I'm riding on a steel rail. My cohort today was riding CF, steel and Ti. All industry guys who were giving me another bleak report on Interbike. I was also told the Yamaha eBike sucks. It was described as "jerky."

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/24/2017 8:57 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 2:16:25 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.
>>
>> A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.
>
> The 105 hydraulic brakes on my Norco modulate really well, and I'm not worried about locking them up -- and they really quieted down after I installed some expensive metal pads and removed the OE resin-organic. I bought the expensive finned pads. I could have folded $20 bills and used those. What a rip-off. I'm going to the cheap-o non-finned pads the next time.
>
> Anyway, today's ride involved about 50 miles of tempo riding with three other guys over mostly rolling terrain. We were on rough road, and it got squirrely in one place, but I never felt like I was going to jam on the brakes and cause a crash. I could easily ride discs in a race if I were still racing.

Are you worried about having brakes on different bikes that require much
different lever forces? I would be.

Panic stops are extremely rare, but if I bought a bike with disc brakes
and a true emergency situation arose while riding it, I suspect I'd lock
wheels and go down.
--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tim McNamara]

My concern with buying a disc brake bike now and planning to keep it for
possibly decades is that the technology is not mature yet. Rim brake
parts, as noted, will be available for pretty much the rest of my life.
But disc brakes may be still evolving to get rid of the weight penalty,
optimize rotor size, pad design, etc. Pretty much the only replacemetn
parts that rim brakes need are cables and pads.

Another concern, which may be unfounded, is that disc brakes stress
frames and wheels in much different ways than rim brakes do. I am not
sure that tecnhlogy has caught up with this yet. For example, on the
front wheel disc brakes can create a steering input during hard braking.
Braking forces are higher than acceleration forces, so this may affect
spoke and rim life.

In terms of performance, I have only ridden a handful of cable actuated
disc brakes. I found them abrupt and grabby and I didn't like them.
But I may not have ridden best examples of the technology and things
have probably come along since then (several years ago). My brazed on
centerpulls, cantilevers and single pivot brakes have consistently an
safely stopped me for decades and I have no complaint about them, but
maybe someone will design the rim brake that converts me. Those brazed
on Mafacs are wonderful, BTW. What a great brake, but few people have
had the opportunity to try them.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

The real reason is weight, the rest is marketing BS.

> A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.

Tom, really that is no problem for the majority of people. You can have an opinion about disk brakes, but one thing that almost everyone agree upon
is the positive feedback you get from disk brakes.

Lou

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Please try some and report back.

Lou

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Lou, there is NO weight difference between the single and double pivot.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

I'm sure there is:
Record-D Skeleton 2007 279 g 282 g +1,08% front/rear: 152/130 g

Lou

[AMuzi]

>>>> You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
>>>> lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for

>>>> the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!
>>>
>>> As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.
>>>
>>
>> The real reason is weight, the rest is marketing BS.
>>
>>> A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.
>>
>> Tom, really that is no problem for the majority of people. You can have an opinion about disk brakes, but one thing that almost everyone agree upon
>> is the positive feedback you get from disk brakes.
>
> Lou, there is NO weight difference between the single and double pivot.
>

Uh, Tom, Super Record DP are 149 grams, the rear single
pivot caliper is 123 grams.

[jbeattie]

On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 8:04:15 PM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
> My concern with buying a disc brake bike now and planning to keep it for
> possibly decades is that the technology is not mature yet. Rim brake
> parts, as noted, will be available for pretty much the rest of my life.
> But disc brakes may be still evolving to get rid of the weight penalty,
> optimize rotor size, pad design, etc. Pretty much the only replacemetn
> parts that rim brakes need are cables and pads.

Disc brakes are evolving, but the real incompatibilities result from different through axle standards and proprietary hub/dropout spacing (Specialized SCS). Disc caliper evolution is a problem only if mounts change -- which they have, but there are so many adapters out there that it doesn't matter. I'm running BB7 cable discs on my warranty replacement CAADX frame which has rear flat-mount and front post-mount for 140mm rotors (I use 160mm front). That meant getting two adapters which were actually quite cheap -- about $10 apiece. My cable discs only require a cable and run off ordinary levers.

> Another concern, which may be unfounded, is that disc brakes stress
> frames and wheels in much different ways than rim brakes do. I am not
> sure that tecnhlogy has caught up with this yet. For example, on the
> front wheel disc brakes can create a steering input during hard braking.
> Braking forces are higher than acceleration forces, so this may affect
> spoke and rim life.

Discs apply forces differently to the fork, and one hopes that the forks have been engineered to withstand those forces. I've been riding wheels I built for my commuter probably ten or more years ago with no problems -- plain-old 32 spoke, cheap Shimano M525 hubs (rear hub shot now) and Velocity Touring Disc rims, which is a discontinued <450g rim. The great part is that the rims are pristine apart from whatever beating they've taken from pot holes, etc. I would have worn them out in two years of commuting in the rain with a rim brake.

>
> In terms of performance, I have only ridden a handful of cable actuated
> disc brakes. I found them abrupt and grabby and I didn't like them.
> But I may not have ridden best examples of the technology and things
> have probably come along since then (several years ago). My brazed on
> centerpulls, cantilevers and single pivot brakes have consistently an
> safely stopped me for decades and I have no complaint about them, but
> maybe someone will design the rim brake that converts me. Those brazed
> on Mafacs are wonderful, BTW. What a great brake, but few people have
> had the opportunity to try them.

Cable discs can be better or worse than rim brakes in terms of stopping power and modulation. If you don't watch your pad adjustment and wear, you can find yourself with really bad braking -- like "oh, crap, man!" That happened to me on my way home from work, flying down a super-steep hill. I stopped (after a while) and adjusted the pads, and everything was AOK. Hydraulics adjust automatically. You can blow through pads on both and have to watch pad wear. My front hydraulics on the Roubaix were stopping me with NO pads -- I was stopping with the pad carriers. Ooops. Not so great on the rotors. Other downsides are complexity (bleeding hydraulic), dragging, pad break-in, adjustment for different wheels if any change in disc location. Wheel changes are a little more complicated, but then again, if you had fat tires and were trying to get them through calipers, that would slow you down more. If you have through axles, that can mean rack and work-stand incompatibility. There is a weight and aerodynamic penalty, which is meaningless for most people.


Like I said, discs modulate well and have excellent stopping power -- far better in wet condition and on CF rims. I think they should be standard on rain bikes. They are standard on my rain bikes. They are totally unnecessary on a dry weather bike with metal rims. Other pluses are tire and fender clearance.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

I have tried some, which is why I'm concerned! Granted, I haven't done long
rides on any. My tests were on bikes belonging to friends, one bike I was
fixing for a bike tourist we were hosting, bikes I tested briefly while
helping a good friend shop for a new bike, and a mountain bike owned by an
acquaintance who let me ride it for maybe half an hour in our local forest
preserve.

The latter was the most upscale bike of the lot. When he traded bikes with me,
he cautioned me "Don't forget, you never need more than one finger on the
brakes." He was right, of course. And I'd be unlikely to forget on that
bike because it had undersized brake levers, plus it was way different than any
of my bikes. But on a road bike with normal sized levers, I'd worry about
forgetting.

I once saw a woman go over the bars because she wasn't familiar with the
reduced lever force of Shimano dual pivots, back when those were new technology.

It seems to me that stopping a bike hard should require a bit of a hard squeeze
on the levers. At least, until bicycles come with something vaguely akin to the
anti-lock brakes on cars. (Anti-pitchover brakes?)

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

So, important to those cyclists who get outraged when the barista gives them
four quarters change instead of a dollar bill?

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 10:06:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
>
> Cable discs can be better or worse than rim brakes in terms of stopping power and modulation. If you don't watch your pad adjustment and wear, you can find yourself with really bad braking -- like "oh, crap, man!" That happened to me on my way home from work, flying down a super-steep hill. I stopped (after a while) and adjusted the pads, and everything was AOK. Hydraulics adjust automatically. You can blow through pads on both and have to watch pad wear. My front hydraulics on the Roubaix were stopping me with NO pads -- I was stopping with the pad carriers. Ooops. Not so great on the rotors. Other downsides are complexity (bleeding hydraulic), dragging, pad break-in, adjustment for different wheels if any change in disc location. Wheel changes are a little more complicated, but then again, if you had fat tires and were trying to get them through calipers, that would slow you down more. If you have through axles, that can mean rack and work-stand incompatibility. There is a weight and aerodynamic penalty, which is meaningless for most people.

Regarding the fat tire issue: I think the logical comparison should be discs vs.
cantilever brakes (either classic ones or V-brakes), not discs vs. close clearance caliper brakes. ISTM most of the advantages of discs apply to
situations that _should_ lead to wider tires, ones that wouldn't fit through
most caliper brakes.

- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

I don't think front discs are a problem for most normal people coming from a dual pivot or other efficient brake. Rear hydraulic discs do require some adjustment because they are far more powerful than any cable operated brake, being that there aren't the usual losses from cable or housing. I was skidding my rear on the Roubaix, but that hasn't been an issue on the Norco for some reason. Maybe I'm acclimated -- or maybe the Roubaix had too much system pressure. The rear cable disc is no better than a rim brake in dry weather. A rear dual pivot is actually stronger, but I hope to remedy that problem with a new rear brake. The first generation Avid BB7s (mine are 13 years old) had crappy return springs that can't manage all the cable drag, and the caliper will rub after braking if the pads are set close to the disc.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 11:35:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 7:55:26 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Snipped

> > I have tried some, which is why I'm concerned! Granted, I haven't done long
> > rides on any. My tests were on bikes belonging to friends, one bike I was
> > fixing for a bike tourist we were hosting, bikes I tested briefly while
> > helping a good friend shop for a new bike, and a mountain bike owned by an
> > acquaintance who let me ride it for maybe half an hour in our local forest
> > preserve.
> >
> > The latter was the most upscale bike of the lot. When he traded bikes with me,
> > he cautioned me "Don't forget, you never need more than one finger on the
> > brakes." He was right, of course. And I'd be unlikely to forget on that
> > bike because it had undersized brake levers, plus it was way different than any
> > of my bikes. But on a road bike with normal sized levers, I'd worry about
> > forgetting.
> >
> > I once saw a woman go over the bars because she wasn't familiar with the
> > reduced lever force of Shimano dual pivots, back when those were new technology.
> >
> > It seems to me that stopping a bike hard should require a bit of a hard squeeze
> > on the levers. At least, until bicycles come with something vaguely akin to the
> > anti-lock brakes on cars. (Anti-pitchover brakes?)
>
> I don't think front discs are a problem for most normal people coming from a dual pivot or other efficient brake. Rear hydraulic discs do require some adjustment because they are far more powerful than any cable operated brake, being that there aren't the usual losses from cable or housing. I was skidding my rear on the Roubaix, but that hasn't been an issue on the Norco for some reason. Maybe I'm acclimated -- or maybe the Roubaix had too much system pressure. The rear cable disc is no better than a rim brake in dry weather. A rear dual pivot is actually stronger, but I hope to remedy that problem with a new rear brake. The first generation Avid BB7s (mine are 13 years old) had crappy return springs that can't manage all the cable drag, and the caliper will rub after braking if the pads are set close to the disc.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

I can easily apply my front Dura Ace AX brake to a force where the rear wheel lifts a lot and I have to release the front brake lever to avoid going over the bar.

On my MTB with the roller cam rear brake under the chainstays, I can easily lock up the rear wheel in ant weather = dry or wet.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

>>>>>> You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
>>>>>> lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for

>>>>>> the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!
>>>>>
>>>>> As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The real reason is weight, the rest is marketing BS.
>>>>
>>>>> A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.
>>>>
>>>> Tom, really that is no problem for the majority of people. You can have an opinion about disk brakes, but one thing that almost everyone agree upon
>>>> is the positive feedback you get from disk brakes.
>>>
>>> Lou, there is NO weight difference between the single and double pivot.
>>>
>>
>> Uh, Tom, Super Record DP are 149 grams, the rear single
>> pivot caliper is 123 grams.
>
> So, important to those cyclists who get outraged when the barista gives them
> four quarters change instead of a dollar bill?

Aside from your opinion about which criteria other people
should find significant to their own riding, bike
manufacturers are relentless in demanding lighter weight
component sets from parts makers every season. There's more
than just caprice and vanity here.

[jbeattie]

You can lock-up a rear wheel with basically any decent, well-adjusted brake. It's just a matter of effort at the lever. You need less effort to lock-up your rear wheel with a hydraulic disc, and the brake modulates differently -- braking force is delivered more quickly, particularly in wet weather. Whether this is worth the price of admission is up to you.

-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Lou - Are you tell me that 3 grams are important? That's about the weight of a toothpick. The variation in manufacturing weight is more than that.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Andrew - All of the places I've looked report double pivot rear as being 20 grams heavier for Record brakes. That's the weight of two quarters. Is this what bicycling has sunken to?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Exactly - two quarters are something like 15 grams.