Chain Driven Dynamo

[sms]

Forget tire driven dynamos that wear out the sidewall of the tire, or
expensive hub dynamos that require a new wheel.

<http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Action-Bicycle-Dynamo-Chain-Dynamo-BICYCLE-GENERATOR-5V-Output-for-Mobile-Phone-MP3-Music-Angel-Flashlight/531798718.html>

[Doug Landau]

Try it out

[Claus Aßmann]

and report back how it works when you switch gears...
over the full range of a "wide" cassette, e.g., 13-26?

[Duane]

Or just read the comments on the bottom of the page.

[Doug Landau]

> Or just read the comments on the bottom of the page.

все хорошо, только вот звездочка там пластикавая

[Doug Landau]

On Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:27:00 AM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
> > Or just read the comments on the bottom of the page.
>
> все хорошо, только вот звездочка там пластикавая

Вещь, в принципе, хорошая. В полевых условиях пока не тестировал, так что ничего не могу сказать о долговечности. Из минусов - жужжит. И если хотите, чтобы не было &quot;проскальзываний&quot; цепи, при проходе через это устройство - желательно стянуть устройство стяжками после установки на велосипед. Заряд держит. При подключении usb-устройств - работают. Особых помех не создает. При переключении передач так же проблем не возникает. Продавец отзывчивый, по моей просьбе даже видео присылал с демонстрацией работы устройства.

[Duane]

Well if you insist but the first two may have been more useful unless
you speak Russian.

For myself, I'd be concerned about the drag on the chain, the noise, the
impact it would have on shifting an 11 speed cassette etc. Not to
mention this 5 mile decent that I know in Beekmantown NY where I'd have
to pedal at 80k/h to keep it running.

[Doug Landau]

Sorry bout that - translation:

The thing is, in principle, a good one. In the field, I not yet tested it, so can not say anything about the durability. Of the minuses - buzzing. And if you want to avoid & quot; slippage & quot; circuit where it passes through the device - preferably pull the device ties after installation on the bike. The charge holds. When you connect the usb-devices - work. Special does not create interference. When changing gears as problems arise. Seller responsive, at my request, even video sent with a demonstration of the device.

[Tosspot]

An odd target market. Would probably work fine with a hub gear, which
is more likely a commuter, which is...

[Frank Krygowski]

Love the Chinglish. That's always a sign of a top quality product,
right? ;-)

I guess we're now going to be treated to SMS "guerrilla marketing" for
all AliExpress bike items.

What's your cut on these, Steve?

For those unfamiliar with "guerrilla marketing," Scharf says on one of
his sites "I receive a small percentage of sales when you use these
links." And on another page: "We believe in guerilla marketing. We
engage with the all segments of the bicycling community in the promotion
of our products."

So, I guess we're engaged!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Yeah, I don't click those either. Search shows it at Amazon.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 09:43:59 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>Forget tire driven dynamos that wear out the sidewall of the tire, or
>expensive hub dynamos that require a new wheel.
>
><http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Action-Bicycle-Dynamo-Chain-Dynamo-BICYCLE-GENERATOR-5V-Output-for-Mobile-Phone-MP3-Music-Angel-Flashlight/531798718.html>

Ummm... I wonder how long the plastic thingy that keeps the chain from
popping out of the dynamo sprocket will last? A problem with all
chain and sprocket arrangements is that they only work well if the
chain is partly wrapped around the sprocket. Any other arrangement,
such as this linear configuration, results in the chain trying to lift
itself away from the sprocket. Only the plastic thingy keeps the
chain from skipping teeth or just skimming the tops of the gear teeth.
Since the sprocket teeth are cut at about a 45 degree angle, about
half of the chain drive force is directed perpendicular to the
sprocket center, which then tries to pull the chain away from the
sprocket.

The good news is that the dynamo doesn't produce much power (maybe 10
watts for USB?), and therefore offers little resistance. It's half
this force that produces the power, while the other half tries to pull
the chain away from the sprocket, grind the chain into the plastic
thingy, and produce some additional drag.

Instead of a plastic friction pad thiny, maybe a roller or two
instead?

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[AMuzi]

On 11/4/2015 5:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 09:43:59 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Forget tire driven dynamos that wear out the sidewall of the tire, or
>> expensive hub dynamos that require a new wheel.
>>
>> <http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Action-Bicycle-Dynamo-Chain-Dynamo-BICYCLE-GENERATOR-5V-Output-for-Mobile-Phone-MP3-Music-Angel-Flashlight/531798718.html>
>
> Ummm... I wonder how long the plastic thingy that keeps the chain from
> popping out of the dynamo sprocket will last? A problem with all
> chain and sprocket arrangements is that they only work well if the
> chain is partly wrapped around the sprocket. Any other arrangement,
> such as this linear configuration, results in the chain trying to lift
> itself away from the sprocket. Only the plastic thingy keeps the
> chain from skipping teeth or just skimming the tops of the gear teeth.
> Since the sprocket teeth are cut at about a 45 degree angle, about
> half of the chain drive force is directed perpendicular to the
> sprocket center, which then tries to pull the chain away from the
> sprocket.
>
> The good news is that the dynamo doesn't produce much power (maybe 10
> watts for USB?), and therefore offers little resistance. It's half
> this force that produces the power, while the other half tries to pull
> the chain away from the sprocket, grind the chain into the plastic
> thingy, and produce some additional drag.
>
> Instead of a plastic friction pad thiny, maybe a roller or two
> instead?
>

A roller? That's a great idea. Maybe it could run against
the tire? Wonder why no one ever thought of that.

[Joerg]

Do you know why roller dynamos fell from grace? In the 80's they were
all the rage with serious longhaul cyclists and then some time in the
90's ... poof ... gone.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 15:44:54 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>Do you know why roller dynamos fell from grace? In the 80's they were
>all the rage with serious longhaul cyclists and then some time in the
>90's ... poof ... gone.

Cheap white LED's hit the market in about 1997, which made battery
powered bicycle lighting practical.
<http://www.osram.com/osram_com/news-and-knowledge/led-home/professional-knowledge/led-basics/led-history/index.jsp>

[sms]

On 11/4/2015 3:44 PM, Joerg wrote:

> Do you know why roller dynamos fell from grace? In the 80's they were
> all the rage with serious longhaul cyclists and then some time in the
> 90's ... poof ... gone.

My touring bicycle even had internal wiring for a bottom bracket roller
dynamo. The Sanyo roller dynamo made a brief reappearance a couple of
years ago, then disappeared again
<http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/sant110bb.jpg>.

There's a crude looking one available again, see
<http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Q8770WU>.

[James]

On 05/11/15 09:20, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 09:43:59 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Forget tire driven dynamos that wear out the sidewall of the tire, or
>> expensive hub dynamos that require a new wheel.
>>
>> <http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Action-Bicycle-Dynamo-Chain-Dynamo-BICYCLE-GENERATOR-5V-Output-for-Mobile-Phone-MP3-Music-Angel-Flashlight/531798718.html>
>
> Ummm... I wonder how long the plastic thingy that keeps the chain from
> popping out of the dynamo sprocket will last? A problem with all
> chain and sprocket arrangements is that they only work well if the
> chain is partly wrapped around the sprocket. Any other arrangement,
> such as this linear configuration, results in the chain trying to lift
> itself away from the sprocket. Only the plastic thingy keeps the
> chain from skipping teeth or just skimming the tops of the gear teeth.
> Since the sprocket teeth are cut at about a 45 degree angle, about
> half of the chain drive force is directed perpendicular to the
> sprocket center, which then tries to pull the chain away from the
> sprocket.
>
> The good news is that the dynamo doesn't produce much power (maybe 10
> watts for USB?), and therefore offers little resistance. It's half
> this force that produces the power, while the other half tries to pull
> the chain away from the sprocket, grind the chain into the plastic
> thingy, and produce some additional drag.
>
> Instead of a plastic friction pad thiny, maybe a roller or two
> instead?
>

Any bicycle with a rear derailleur already has a pair of sprockets with
the chain wrapped around. Could at least be used to keep the battery
charged that runs electronic gear shift mechanisms these days.

--
JS

[Ralph Barone]

That makes some sense. After all, if you're not pedalling, you probably
have no need to shift, so the odds of matching power delivery and power
requirements looks good.

[John B.]

You missed the part about "used to keep the battery charged"?

--
cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

That was because hub dyno's became available for a fair price, a much better solution. Here we were glad we got rid of the bottle dyno's which today only are used in cheap 'Walmart' bikes.

Lou

[AMuzi]

Because there are now other systems which suit other needs.
Celebrate diversity!

My needs aren't as intense in lumens as yours but I really
dislike batteries, charging etc. YMMV and usually does.

[Ralph Barone]

Actually, I didn't. I just failed to throw the word "average" into my text
a couple of times. The other nice thing is that if you want to charge a Di2
battery, there's already a wire going from the battery to the rear
derailleur.

[Andre Jute]

Mmm. I was perfectly happy with the hub dynamo charging the full Di2 system (fully automatic electronic gear shifting, not the cut-down manual assisted gears on the DuraAce for roadies, active electronic suspension, light sensor management, control programs for various purposes) on my Trek Smover. Everything worked transparently and faultlessly. But itself the auto gears made me about 10% faster over a loop I rode daily because I was always in the right gear. A crappy generator, like Scharfie is pushing, would have ruined a good system by supplying juice only intermittently.

Andre Jute
Context is everything

[Joerg]

That one doesn't exactly instill confidence about longevity :-)

[Joerg]

> better solution....


Doesn't apply to bicycles with really good brakes, a.k.a. disc brakes.
Then the "solution" is a SON hub dynamo which sets you back over $200
with new spokes and all. Of course, then there is also the flooding
issue with MTB which battery lights and bottle dynamos do not have.


> ... Here we were glad we got rid of the bottle dyno's

> which today only are used in cheap 'Walmart' bikes.
>

Have you ever been in a Walmart or did you just make that up? I have
never seen a bike in a Walmart that had a bottle dynamo.

[Joerg]

Yeah, I guess that's true. Looks like I'll have to install a bigger
battery also for the road bike. On the MTB I now have well over 50
watt-hours available which allows 5h+ rides with the lights on.

Luckily I just found a gray junction box at Home Depot that can
accommodate eight 18650 cells so they no longer have to ride in the rack
trunk. Requires lots of adaptation and drilling but once it's done I
have a solid battery compartment.

Then I am going to see if I can mod a classic Spanninga rear light with
a Lumileds style 3W LED but operated only at around 1W. I have
squirreled some of those lights before moving to the US, comes in handy now.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 07:17:11 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Because there are now other systems which suit other needs.
>Celebrate diversity!

I think you now understand how marketing works. Once a need is
satisfied, marketing simply creates a new unsatisfied need, convinces
potential buyers that they are not proper cyclists without satisfying
the new need, and of course provides a series of defective products
that partly satisfy the need, but only if one buys the latest
incremental upgrades.

>My needs aren't as intense in lumens as yours but I really
>dislike batteries, charging etc. YMMV and usually does.

Would liquid fuel help? There are kerosene and acetylene bicycle
lanterns available. Figure about 80 lumens.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=antique+bicycle+lantern&tbm=isch>
Please note that they are also useful for personal protection by
simply inverting the lantern into the Molotov Cocktail mode.

You seem to have a pathological aversion to batteries, I have a simple
solution. It's a common problem worthy of a solution. Welcome to
Jeff's Battery Exchange Service(tm) or JBES. JBES offers to perform
all the messy, awkward, dangerous, and tedious battery charging and
maintenance service for you. Merely purchase a collection of Jeff's
Sealed Battery Containers(tm) or JSBC and use them to power your
riding experience. When the JSBC is depleted, merely insert the JSBC
in the supplied mailing container, and send it to the nearest Jeff's
Battery Service Center(tm) or JBSC. Upon confirmation of shipment,
the JBSC will mail you a fully charged and tested replacement battery,
thus eliminating the need to even look at a battery, much less
actually handle one directly. Of course, investors, franchise
operators, pyramid schemers, and operators of additional JBSC
facilities are always welcome.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:19:18 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Any bicycle with a rear derailleur already has a pair of sprockets with
>the chain wrapped around. Could at least be used to keep the battery
>charged that runs electronic gear shift mechanisms these days.

Won't work. All the power from pedaling is tranfered from the crank
to the freewheel through the chain. The return chain path, which
includes the derailleur, has no chain tension, no power, and cannot be
used to power a generator or dynamo.

[AMuzi]

I just want to go ride my bike, any time[1], without
thinking about it. Both my urban bikes have dynamos (one
hub, one bottle) neither of which consume any thought or
attention whatsoever. Again I'm not proselytizing but truly
people's various criteria differ and so their decisions vary
in outcome.

[1] One of my most satisfying adventures for 2015 was waking
up at 3am in early August. I rode down to the lake and laid
in the grass watching meteors for a couple hours.

[Lou Holtman]

Huh..?
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Shimano/LX-Disc-Center-Lock-Nabendynamo-DH-T675-p33665/


I think a dyno hub can handle with some wet conditions as a normal hub
does. I would not recommend to ride in hub deep water though which
never happens besides liberately doing that. I would comfortable riding
with a hub dyno equipped ATB here off road.

>
>
>> ... Here we were glad we got rid of the bottle dyno's
>> which today only are used in cheap 'Walmart' bikes.
>>
>
> Have you ever been in a Walmart or did you just make that up? I have
> never seen a bike in a Walmart that had a bottle dynamo.

By putting Walmart between ' ' I meant department store bikes. I
thought you would understand that.



--

Lou

[sms]

On 11/5/2015 8:44 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> Have you ever been in a Walmart or did you just make that up? I have
>> never seen a bike in a Walmart that had a bottle dynamo.
>
> By putting Walmart between ' ' I meant department store bikes. I
> thought you would understand that.

Speaking of Walmart. There's a guy in my Toastmaster's club who rode his
bike there every week. For the last month he's been taking Uber. Why?
Because his bike has a flat tire. Today he told me that he ordered a new
bike and is waiting for it to arrive. I figured he ordered it from
Bikesdirect, or maybe he ordered a Diamondback from Costco. No, he's
waiting for a Walmart bicycle to arrive.

[Joerg]

I prefer a solution that does not require proprietary discs or some sort
of adaptor kludge.

[...]

[Joerg]

On 2015-11-05 09:13, sms wrote:
> On 11/5/2015 8:44 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>>> Have you ever been in a Walmart or did you just make that up? I have
>>> never seen a bike in a Walmart that had a bottle dynamo.
>>
>> By putting Walmart between ' ' I meant department store bikes. I
>> thought you would understand that.
>
> Speaking of Walmart. There's a guy in my Toastmaster's club who rode his
> bike there every week. For the last month he's been taking Uber. Why?

> Because his bike has a flat tire. ...


When I got back into bicycling and visited a local bike shop for parts
to revive my old road bike I saw their shop list. One item was "Fix a
flat .. $5". My jaw dropped. So I asked the owner whether some folks
seriously drop off their bikes to have a flat fixed. "Oh yeah, lots!".
He said some have a drive that takes many times longer than it does to
fix the flat.

Oh, and at one bike shop they were actually surprised that I came ... by
bicycle.


> ... Today he told me that he ordered a new

> bike and is waiting for it to arrive. I figured he ordered it from
> Bikesdirect, or maybe he ordered a Diamondback from Costco. No, he's
> waiting for a Walmart bicycle to arrive.
>

Walmart bikes are not necessarily bad. My wife doesn't ride much, is
petite, and needed a 24" MTB. One day she saw one at the hospice store
for $17. I fixed it up and it's not a bad bike despite the fact that it
costs only around $100 new. It even has a spoke protector _and_ a sturdy
derailleur protector, something that is sorely missing on my $2000 class
MTB and that has caused me lots of grief.

[Lou Holtman]

Sigh...centerlock disc are readily available, from cheap to expensive but
if you want to hold on to the 6 hole mount:

https://www.bike-components.de/de/Shimano/Nabendynamo-Disc-6-Loch-DH-3D32-QR-p37542/

Even less expensive. Stop whining please.

--
Lou

[sms]

On 11/5/2015 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2015-11-05 09:13, sms wrote:
>> On 11/5/2015 8:44 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>
>>>> Have you ever been in a Walmart or did you just make that up? I have
>>>> never seen a bike in a Walmart that had a bottle dynamo.
>>>
>>> By putting Walmart between ' ' I meant department store bikes. I
>>> thought you would understand that.
>>
>> Speaking of Walmart. There's a guy in my Toastmaster's club who rode his
>> bike there every week. For the last month he's been taking Uber. Why?
>> Because his bike has a flat tire. ...
>
>
> When I got back into bicycling and visited a local bike shop for parts
> to revive my old road bike I saw their shop list. One item was "Fix a
> flat .. $5". My jaw dropped. So I asked the owner whether some folks
> seriously drop off their bikes to have a flat fixed. "Oh yeah, lots!".
> He said some have a drive that takes many times longer than it does to
> fix the flat.

Around here it's $10. That's for a new tube, they don't patch it. And
since they are probably selling tubes for $7, the labor isn't outrageous
for a five minute job. I suspect that most people here are paying around
$1-2 for a tube.

> Walmart bikes are not necessarily bad. My wife doesn't ride much, is
> petite, and needed a 24" MTB. One day she saw one at the hospice store
> for $17. I fixed it up and it's not a bad bike despite the fact that it
> costs only around $100 new. It even has a spoke protector _and_ a sturdy
> derailleur protector, something that is sorely missing on my $2000 class
> MTB and that has caused me lots of grief.

Walmart actually does have third-party sellers on their site selling
some of Dorel's non-department store bicycles. But the bicycles I've
seen in the actual Walmart stores are pretty bad.

When our city has its annual city-wide garage sale, there are a great
many very nice bicycles being sold for under $100, bikes that could
fetch twice that on craigslist. I told one lady to sell her six speed
Burley Piccolo on craigslist for $200 rather than for $60 at the garage
sale.

[Doug Landau]

> Around here it's $10. That's for a new tube, they don't patch it. And
> since they are probably selling tubes for $7, the labor isn't outrageous
> for a five minute job. I suspect that most people here are paying around
> $1-2 for a tube.

Where do you find tubes for $1-2 ?

thx

[sms]

eBay, but sorry, I was wrong. While the listed price is 99¢, it works
out to about $3 each with shipping. These are for Kenda tubes.

I can get QBP's Q tubes at QBP's wholesale price which is about $2.50,
at least for eight more months.

[James]

It could be supercap energy storage I imagine. That should be smaller
and lighter than the existing battery pack.

--
JS

[James]

On 05/11/15 21:06, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Thursday, November 5, 2015 at 12:44:51 AM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-11-04 15:35, AMuzi wrote:

>>>
>>> A roller? That's a great idea. Maybe it could run against the
>>> tire? Wonder why no one ever thought of that.
>>>
>>
>> Do you know why roller dynamos fell from grace? In the 80's they
>> were all the rage with serious longhaul cyclists and then some time
>> in the 90's ... poof ... gone.
>>
>

> That was because hub dyno's became available for a fair price, a much
> better solution. Here we were glad we got rid of the bottle dyno's
> which today only are used in cheap 'Walmart' bikes.
>

The Sanyo roller dynamo I bought more than 25 years ago, resurrected for
a few years to power a home brew LED headlight, before I bought a dynamo
hub and commercial headlight, has been resurrected yet again. The other
day I bolted it on to my MTB at the rear brake bridge (it has discs so
the brake bridge is there for looks I guess). Last night I used it with
my old home brew headlight to go to the Thai restaurant to collect a
takeaway dinner, and to the supermarket to buy some sweetened condensed
milk.

I have slicks on my MTB at the moment, because I use it to tow my
trailer to the supermarket or where ever around town. I'd like to
replace the suspension forks with lighter rigid forks. One day ...


--
JS

[James]

On 06/11/15 01:09, Joerg wrote:
> On 2015-11-05 03:06, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>
>> That was because hub dyno's became available for a fair price, a much
>> better solution....
>
>
> Doesn't apply to bicycles with really good brakes, a.k.a. disc brakes.
> Then the "solution" is a SON hub dynamo which sets you back over $200
> with new spokes and all. Of course, then there is also the flooding
> issue with MTB which battery lights and bottle dynamos do not have.
>

I think SP dynamo hubs are cheaper ($121 USD + shipping), and with 36
spokes at < $30, looks like even with shipping you could come in under $200.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sp-dynamo-pd-8-disc-front-hub-black-36-hole-prod38173/?currency=usd&geoc=au

Now, I have crossed a few rivers with my MTB, and I have to say, once
the water gets close to hub depth, especially where the river bed is
rocks and pebbles, it can be very difficult to keep riding.

If I was concerned about flooding a hub, and let's face it, the rear hub
can also easily be flooded, as well as the bottom bracket, I would step
off the bike, put it on my shoulder and wade. Your feet will get wet
either way.

For a short duration splash through a deep puddle, I wouldn't be
concerned about flooding, and I would certainly not be concerned about
caked on mud. You're likely to do more harm washing the bike with water
under pressure when you get home.

--
JS

[James]

On 06/11/15 01:16, Joerg wrote:

>
> Then I am going to see if I can mod a classic Spanninga rear light with
> a Lumileds style 3W LED but operated only at around 1W. I have
> squirreled some of those lights before moving to the US, comes in handy
> now.
>

I seem to recall being chastised for suggesting running an LED at well
below the maximum power spec., yet here you are saying that is exactly
what you intend to do.

--
JS

[James]

On 06/11/15 01:56, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:19:18 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Any bicycle with a rear derailleur already has a pair of sprockets with
>> the chain wrapped around. Could at least be used to keep the battery
>> charged that runs electronic gear shift mechanisms these days.
>
> Won't work. All the power from pedaling is tranfered from the crank
> to the freewheel through the chain. The return chain path, which
> includes the derailleur, has no chain tension, no power, and cannot be
> used to power a generator or dynamo.
>

Bullshit.

If the derailleur had near zero spring tension, then you would be
correct, however it is quite easy to increase the spring tension a
little to overcome that.

--
JS

[James]

On 06/11/15 05:32, Lou Holtman wrote:

> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

>>
>> I prefer a solution that does not require proprietary discs or some sort
>> of adaptor kludge.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>
> Sigh...centerlock disc are readily available, from cheap to expensive but
> if you want to hold on to the 6 hole mount:
>
> https://www.bike-components.de/de/Shimano/Nabendynamo-Disc-6-Loch-DH-3D32-QR-p37542/
>
> Even less expensive. Stop whining please.
>

+1

--
JS

[Joerg]

On 2015-11-05 16:34, James wrote:
> On 06/11/15 01:09, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-11-05 03:06, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>>>
>>> That was because hub dyno's became available for a fair price, a much
>>> better solution....
>>
>>
>> Doesn't apply to bicycles with really good brakes, a.k.a. disc brakes.
>> Then the "solution" is a SON hub dynamo which sets you back over $200
>> with new spokes and all. Of course, then there is also the flooding
>> issue with MTB which battery lights and bottle dynamos do not have.
>>
>
> I think SP dynamo hubs are cheaper ($121 USD + shipping), and with 36
> spokes at < $30, looks like even with shipping you could come in under
> $200.
>
> http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sp-dynamo-pd-8-disc-front-hub-black-36-hole-prod38173/?currency=usd&geoc=au
>
>
> Now, I have crossed a few rivers with my MTB, and I have to say, once
> the water gets close to hub depth, especially where the river bed is
> rocks and pebbles, it can be very difficult to keep riding.
>

I find it mostly to be ok but sometimes I am forced off the bike by a
strong current. Then it's wading through but the bike will often be half
submerged.

> If I was concerned about flooding a hub, and let's face it, the rear hub
> can also easily be flooded, as well as the bottom bracket, I would step
> off the bike, put it on my shoulder and wade. Your feet will get wet
> either way.
>

Yeah, but I can take the shoes off and dump out the water. Or not worry
about it at all when riding with sandals. Kind of tough to do with a hub
dynamo.

The BB on my bikes have a weep hole at the lowest point. I have seen
some high-Dollar MTB that didn't have that. Beats me why not since
standing water is a recipe for bearing problems.

Shouldering my MTB isn't an option. It weighs almost 40lbs plus 10lbs of
water, tools and stuff. And my lower back ain't too great.

> For a short duration splash through a deep puddle, I wouldn't be
> concerned about flooding, and I would certainly not be concerned about
> caked on mud. You're likely to do more harm washing the bike with water
> under pressure when you get home.
>

If in doubt you can easily take out the wheel bearings because
unfortunately hubs aren't self-draining. Taking apart a hub dynamo is
probably not a trivial job or one that can be done as often as
re-greasing bearings.

Anyhow, for the MTB I now have my solution, a >50Wh Li-Ion battery. That
lasts 5h with the ship lit up to the max. But for the road bike I should
look into a Shimano hub dynamo so a smaller battery suffices there. On
bike paths full power lighting isn't needed and I try to avoid roads
where I can.

[Joerg]

Sure, because more than 1W is not needed for a rear light. Why should I
waste power? Also, if I go any higher it would annoy other traffic
participants. Especially road bikers following me.

The 3W LEDs were on sale for under a buck each when buying a 10-pack so
I pounced.

[sms]

On 11/5/2015 4:22 PM, James wrote:

<snip>

> takeaway dinner, and to the supermarket to buy some sweetened condensed
> milk.

My wife likes sweetened condensed milk (this is bicycle related because
she carries it to work on her bicycle).

Just a note that I found that a) some companies are adding palm oil,
and reducing the amount of milk, to lower their costs. and b) the price
of real sweetened condensed milk varies greatly. The same Nestle SKU is
$1.50 at Walmart and $2.79 at Safeway.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 10:02:48 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>I just want to go ride my bike, any time[1], without
>thinking about it.

I also do an amazing number of thoughtless things without thinking.
Cycling is not one of them. My brain must be fully engaged in order
to avoid becoming a statistic. I suggest you reconsider your approach
to cycling without thinking.

>Both my urban bikes have dynamos (one
>hub, one bottle) neither of which consume any thought or
>attention whatsoever. Again I'm not proselytizing but truly
>people's various criteria differ and so their decisions vary
>in outcome.

You probably have your machines fully loaded and ready to go with no
preparation. That won't work for everyone. Before I can go anywhere,
I have to:

1. Check the tire pressure. Add air as required.
2. Check the cable lock to make sure I remembered to bring a key.
(Incidentally, this is my number one screwup).
3. Adjust the saddle to compensate for whatever shoes I'm wearing.
4. Check the junk bag for the usual consumables (band-aids, spare
screws, tools, hand wipes, spare AA batteries, USB cables, Super-Glue,
grease, pain killer, etc).
5. Check the brakes for pad alignment and lever travel.
6. Triple check the quick release so that I don't take off with them
loose (again).
7. Find where my helmet is hiding this time.
8. Clean out whatever is growing in my water bottle and replace it
with some available beverage.

After all that, only then am I ready to ride off into the sunset. With
all the aforementioned checking, quick charging a battery pack, or
replacing discharged batteries is not a major addition to my ritual.

>[1] One of my most satisfying adventures for 2015 was waking
>up at 3am in early August. I rode down to the lake and laid
>in the grass watching meteors for a couple hours.

I did that a few years ago when we had a meteor shower. I went up to
the old Bonny Doon Airport with the astronomy club to watch the meteor
shower. I laid down on the grass, looked straight up, and fell
asleep. When I woke up a few hours later, I was soaked in
condensation and dew. This adventure was not quite so satisfying.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 20:23:14 +0000, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> considered Thu, 05 Nov 2015

>07:56:05 -0800 the perfect time to write:
>
>>On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:19:18 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Any bicycle with a rear derailleur already has a pair of sprockets with
>>>the chain wrapped around. Could at least be used to keep the battery
>>>charged that runs electronic gear shift mechanisms these days.
>>
>>Won't work. All the power from pedaling is tranfered from the crank
>>to the freewheel through the chain. The return chain path, which
>>includes the derailleur, has no chain tension, no power, and cannot be
>>used to power a generator or dynamo.

>If course it would work - if it didn't, any slightly stiff bearing in
>the idler sprockets would render the bike unridable, which it doesn't.

I simulated the added drag of a dynamo by putting a towel over the
chain return path (bottom of the loop) and applying some friction.
Both jockey and idler wheels pulled into a rough approximation of a
straight line. Additional friction caused the derailleur to rotate
clockwise, but could not unwrap the chain from the smallest gear in
the freewheel due to the position of the hanger bolt.

Amazingly, the shifting mechanism still worked somewhat with the
derailleur pulled straight, but not very well. In order to get the
derailleur to return to its normal position, it would be necessary to
increase the spring tension by the amount of the added drag from the
dynamo. That would cause plenty of bushing/bearing wear. All the
derailleur bushing/bearings are designed to run under nearly zero
load.

The problem with this simulation is I don't know how much chain drag
will be produced by the generator and can't measure how much drag I'm
adding with a towel. I also don't know how much drag 5 or 10 watts
might produce. I might be applying too much friction, or too little.
Dunno.

Ok, I yield. You're probably right. Borrowing a little power from
the chain return can probably be made to work, if you don't mind
tightening the derailleur spring and using bearings instead of
bushings.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 20:04:08 +0000, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>In theory, driving a dynamo from the chain is great - much more
>positive engagement than a normal roller dynamo, and not tied to
>riding speed but to chain speed.

Yes, but the chain speed is fairly low compared to the speed of a
roller on the tire. For example, the chain speed if the ratio of:
sprocket_diameter / wheel_diameter * ground speed
Typically:
4" / 27" * 15 km/hr = 2.2 km/hr
2200 m/hr / 60 min/hr = 37 meters/minute
That's probably fast enough to drive a small diameter sprocket, like
in the photo. I would guess(tm) about a 3cm dia sprocket on the
dynamo, which would produce:
37 meters/min / Pi * 0.03 meters/rev = 3.5 rpm
which is kinda slooooo for a dynamo. Unless there are some additional
gears hidden inside the package, this is not going to be fast enough.

>But on a derailer gearing system, surely the best way to use the
>concept would be to replace the bottom idler wheel on the shift
>mechanism with one incorporating the dynamo, so that it moves with the
>chain instead of having to move the chain. Doing it that way
>shouldn't present any insurmountable technical challenges, and does
>save on the cost of replacing the hub.

The derailleur idler wheel would turn at about the same 3.5 rpm as the
above example. There will need to be some addition gearing, as found
in those hand crank cell phone dynamo chargers:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=hand+crank+cell+phone+charger&tbm=isch>

>Of course, it does mean that you need different models for single
>speed/IGH and derailer systems, but that's not a huge problem.

Ok, here's my idea. Magnetize the chain. The bushings are
magnetized. The side plates are made from non-magnetic material.
Every other link is polarized in the opposite direction. At 37
meters/minute chain speed and 0.6 meters/sec chain speed, that's:
600 mm/sec / 14 mm/link = 43 links/sec
or about 22 Hz. Kinda low, but still possible with enough iron. With
a magnetized chain, all that would be needed is a pickup coil around
the chain and some kind of transformer to get the output voltage into
the desired ballpark. Patent pending.

[Clive George]

On 06/11/2015 03:49, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 20:04:08 +0000, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In theory, driving a dynamo from the chain is great - much more
>> positive engagement than a normal roller dynamo, and not tied to
>> riding speed but to chain speed.
>
> Yes, but the chain speed is fairly low compared to the speed of a
> roller on the tire. For example, the chain speed if the ratio of:
> sprocket_diameter / wheel_diameter * ground speed
> Typically:
> 4" / 27" * 15 km/hr = 2.2 km/hr
> 2200 m/hr / 60 min/hr = 37 meters/minute
> That's probably fast enough to drive a small diameter sprocket, like
> in the photo. I would guess(tm) about a 3cm dia sprocket on the
> dynamo, which would produce:
> 37 meters/min / Pi * 0.03 meters/rev = 3.5 rpm
> which is kinda slooooo for a dynamo. Unless there are some additional
> gears hidden inside the package, this is not going to be fast enough.

Sanity check - you don't turn your front ring that slowly, so your sums
have to be wrong somewhere :-)

I make it nearly 400 rpm. Did you multiply rather than divide somewhere?

Of course if the sprocket on the dynamo is the same size as the one on
the wheel, the dynamo will go at the same speed as a hub dynamo would.

[James]

I agree.

Assuming a 40 tooth chainring, turned at 80 rpm, an 11 tooth sprocket
(guessing the number of teeth on a jockey wheel) would turn at
80 * 40/11 = 290 rpm.

--
JS

[John B.]

On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 19:49:55 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Doesn't voltage generated depend at least to some extent on the speed
that the magnetic poles pass the generating coils ? Does the chain
move fast enough?

If my calculations are right (always a nebulas matter) with a 50-11
gearing the 11 tooth sprocket is turning abut 450 RPM with pedal RPM
of 100.

Typically an auto alternator needs to be turning about 1,800 RPM to
generate 12 Volts.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Thursday, November 5, 2015 at 8:07:40 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>
> The BB on my bikes have a weep hole at the lowest point. I have seen
> some high-Dollar MTB that didn't have that. Beats me why not since
> standing water is a recipe for bearing problems.

I suppose a person could always drill such a weep hole if necessary.

Oh... but I've read here that a person needs a completely equipped machine shop
to drill a hole in a bike frame. So never mind.

;-)

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Thursday, November 5, 2015 at 9:47:13 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> You probably have your machines fully loaded and ready to go with no
> preparation. That won't work for everyone. Before I can go anywhere,
> I have to:
>
> 1. Check the tire pressure. Add air as required.
> 2. Check the cable lock to make sure I remembered to bring a key.
> (Incidentally, this is my number one screwup).
> 3. Adjust the saddle to compensate for whatever shoes I'm wearing.
> 4. Check the junk bag for the usual consumables (band-aids, spare
> screws, tools, hand wipes, spare AA batteries, USB cables, Super-Glue,
> grease, pain killer, etc).
> 5. Check the brakes for pad alignment and lever travel.
> 6. Triple check the quick release so that I don't take off with them
> loose (again).
> 7. Find where my helmet is hiding this time.
> 8. Clean out whatever is growing in my water bottle and replace it
> with some available beverage.
>
> After all that, only then am I ready to ride off into the sunset.

Are you serious about all that? If so... wow!

I have three bikes that get ridden most often, plus several others that get
occasional use. One of the top three is the around-town 3 speed that gets used
only for short level trips to stores, etc. It's specifically configured so
I can jump on it wearing any clothes and shoes. Not even a pants clip is
necessary.

The other two of the top three are my more serious utility and night bike,
and the touring bike I do most recreational rides on. Both are fitted with
bags. Each bag has a special receptacle for the eyeglass mirror that stays
with the bike. Each bike also has its own cable lock, patch kit, tool set,
appropriate maps, spare tube, gloves (in season, for the utility bike),
lights, dynamo, etc. Even a tiny tube of oil. Oh, and a cycling cap.
Bulky plastic hats are only rarely used in our house.

As to air, brakes, etc. Tires need air once a week; it's not that critical.
Brakes need attention only once in six months or so, IME.

It never made sense to me to go looking around for stuff before each ride.
I don't hamper my car driving that way; why hamper my bike riding?

- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

I see a lot of frames naked. Internal rust is uncommon and
associated with 'closed' tubes. Moisture always gets in, the
key is to let it out. Skipping or closing off vent holes is
poor practice. Here's an example:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/coln14b.jpg

The vent between the top tube and head tube was both
smallish and misplaced high such that the headset cup
completely blocked it.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

On 2015-11-06 06:29, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/6/2015 8:12 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 5, 2015 at 8:07:40 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>> The BB on my bikes have a weep hole at the lowest point. I have seen
>>> some high-Dollar MTB that didn't have that. Beats me why not since
>>> standing water is a recipe for bearing problems.
>>
>> I suppose a person could always drill such a weep hole if necessary.
>>
>> Oh... but I've read here that a person needs a completely equipped
>> machine shop
>> to drill a hole in a bike frame. So never mind.
>>
>> ;-)
>>

Maybe it hasn't occurred to you that such a hole must be deburred and
you also have to clean out the drill chips. I thought that was obvious.
To accomplish those tasks you have to remove the whole BB assembly and
that usually requires special tools which not everyone has.

Besides, why is it that in the world of bicycles it is so often expected
that the customer does the job the design engineers at the manufacturers
should have done in the first place? Including serious design flaws that
should have been caught in a design review. Where I am no lomnger sure
that those are really happening ...

>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>
> I see a lot of frames naked. Internal rust is uncommon and associated
> with 'closed' tubes. Moisture always gets in, the key is to let it out.
> Skipping or closing off vent holes is poor practice. Here's an example:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/coln14b.jpg
>
> The vent between the top tube and head tube was both smallish and
> misplaced high such that the headset cup completely blocked it.
>

A dangerous design flaw because internal corrosion can go unnoticed for
too long. My dad once rode a bike that externally looked just fine. Then
on a rougher spot of the road and riding at a good clip the unthinkable
happened. The bike broke apart. The frame had corroded out from inside.

BTW, that also happened to an engineer at a client. Except it was on a
motorcycle in Europe and at the time he felt the bike suddenly become
mushy he was doing 160km/h or 100mph in fairly dense traffic. Several
months in the hospital. What probably saved his life was that the driver
in the car behind him was an experienced motorcyclists, saw a crash
coming and swerved to slow down and stop traffic on the freeway.

[AMuzi]

In fairness, the frame linked above wasn't a design flaw but
rather inadequate QC/ indolence/ inattention/ Friday
Afternoon Production or some such as other frames from that
series are correctly drilled in the right place.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 6 Nov 2015 06:24:53 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, November 5, 2015 at 9:47:13 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>> You probably have your machines fully loaded and ready to go with no
>> preparation. That won't work for everyone. Before I can go anywhere,
>> I have to:
>>
>> 1. Check the tire pressure. Add air as required.
>> 2. Check the cable lock to make sure I remembered to bring a key.
>> (Incidentally, this is my number one screwup).
>> 3. Adjust the saddle to compensate for whatever shoes I'm wearing.
>> 4. Check the junk bag for the usual consumables (band-aids, spare
>> screws, tools, hand wipes, spare AA batteries, USB cables, Super-Glue,
>> grease, pain killer, etc).
>> 5. Check the brakes for pad alignment and lever travel.
>> 6. Triple check the quick release so that I don't take off with them
>> loose (again).
>> 7. Find where my helmet is hiding this time.
>> 8. Clean out whatever is growing in my water bottle and replace it
>> with some available beverage.
>>
>> After all that, only then am I ready to ride off into the sunset.
>
>Are you serious about all that? If so... wow!

Actually yes, but not in an organized fashion. I don't have a
checklist. Each has a reason:
1. My tires leak. I always have to pump them up before riding.
2. I had a break in at my office about 4 years ago. My bicycle would
have been stolen if I hadn't locked it to a bench with a cable lock.
I keep the key hidden separately. The trick is to remember to take
the key when leaving for a ride.
3. I wear a variety of shoes including construction boots. I also
have a bad case to hemorrhoids which require careful seat positioning.
Last year, I was also experimenting with different pedal types. I
don't have the seat post marked, but I can usually tell by scrapes and
gouges where to position the seat height.
4. I actually use stuff from my junk bag, which tends to get depleted
if I forget to replenish. The only things I really check are the
batteries, which are usually for other peoples lights.
5. Checking the brakes has become a habit after a stupid minor crash.
Details withheld to preserve what's left of my reputation.
6. I've ridden off with the quick release loose an embarrassing
number of times. Fortunately, no crashes or damage.
7. I have 4 helmets, which move around the house and office at night
when nobody is watching, much like the Death Valley moving rocks. My
choice of color provides them with perfect camouflage, even when in
plain sight. Finding my helmets would be easier if I wore my glasses,
but I don't wear those when riding.
8. I have the bad habit of dumping a little sugar and lemon in the
water bottle and then not rinsing the bottle after a ride. I should
do something about that, but it's easier to just clean out the
botanical nightmare before going for a ride.

>It never made sense to me to go looking around for stuff before each ride.
>I don't hamper my car driving that way; why hamper my bike riding?

My present vehicle (2001 Subaru Forester) is like that. I can jump
in, turn the key, and just go. Most of my previous cars first
required some form of minor maintenance. For example, my British cars
leaked oil and required an oil check. I've also had cars with tire
air leaks, power steering leaks, brake fluid leaks, transmission oil
leaks, etc. At one point, I owned 3 vehicles and had to move junk
from whichever vehicle I last used, to the current vehicle, before
driving away. For example, I didn't want to own 3 tool kits just so I
could drive away instantly.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 06 Nov 2015 04:29:15 +0000, Clive George
<cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

>Sanity check - you don't turn your front ring that slowly, so your sums
>have to be wrong somewhere :-)
>
>I make it nearly 400 rpm. Did you multiply rather than divide somewhere?

I probably goofed. My arithmetic sucks. I'll clean it up later today
after I'm done sulking and dealing with work. Thanks.

>Of course if the sprocket on the dynamo is the same size as the one on
>the wheel, the dynamo will go at the same speed as a hub dynamo would.

[sms]

On 11/6/2015 8:12 AM, Joerg wrote:

> Maybe it hasn't occurred to you that such a hole must be deburred and
> you also have to clean out the drill chips. I thought that was obvious.
> To accomplish those tasks you have to remove the whole BB assembly and
> that usually requires special tools which not everyone has.
>
> Besides, why is it that in the world of bicycles it is so often expected
> that the customer does the job the design engineers at the manufacturers
> should have done in the first place? Including serious design flaws that
> should have been caught in a design review. Where I am no lomnger sure
> that those are really happening ...

Remember, for most bicycle companies, "manufacturing" is pretty rare
these days. Trek still has some going on but very little. Brompton does
their own manufacturing.

"Design engineers" at bicycle companies, LOL. You have marketing people
visiting Taiwan and China telling a contract manufacturer which of their
frames to use, which components to use, and what color to paint the
bicycle. There is still some design going on at the high end, and for
specialty products like folding bicycles. If your volumes are high
enough you can tell the factories to make some modifications to their
standard products.

Whether it's REI with their Novara brand, or Bikesdirect with whatever
defunct brand name they've purchased this month, it's not that hard to
get into the bicycle business, you just need a distribution channel, a
few employees that know what will sell, and a contract manufacturer. QBP
realized this and came out with several brands of complete bicycles, and
some are very good.

Both Trek and Specialized have explicitly warned against drilling holes
in their frames. Not just because it voids the warranty, but because of
the difficulty of the proper placement of holes and the danger of
creating stress risers in the frame.

Unfortunately, the customers are often left to work around issues with
whatever they buy. Jay looks for way to add fenders to bicycles without
fender mounts. Lots of people look for ways to add more water bottle
mounts or racks. The buying process is to look for something as close as
you can get to what you want and then take it from there. Hopefully it
does not involve destroying the structural integrity of the product as
we have seen advocated by one person in r.b.t.!

[Joerg]

Sometimes (but not always) it can be way cheaper to obtain even food
items on the Internet. For example, locally I never found a lower price
for "Ultima Replenisher" electrolyte powder or a similar product than on
Amazon. This is bicycle-related because I use it for all longer bike
trips :-)

We even buy our Italian Lavazza Espresso online. It's around 30% more at
the supermarket. This is also a nice "filler" to get above the
free-shipping threshold for smaller purchases of other items.

What really pays off is this coupon and sale stuff. My wife is like a
hawk in that respect. She has it almost down to a science and gets many
of our regular items at a huge discount.

[Joerg]

On 2015-11-06 10:15, sms wrote:
> On 11/6/2015 8:12 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> Maybe it hasn't occurred to you that such a hole must be deburred and
>> you also have to clean out the drill chips. I thought that was obvious.
>> To accomplish those tasks you have to remove the whole BB assembly and
>> that usually requires special tools which not everyone has.
>>
>> Besides, why is it that in the world of bicycles it is so often expected
>> that the customer does the job the design engineers at the manufacturers
>> should have done in the first place? Including serious design flaws that
>> should have been caught in a design review. Where I am no lomnger sure
>> that those are really happening ...
>
> Remember, for most bicycle companies, "manufacturing" is pretty rare
> these days. Trek still has some going on but very little. Brompton does
> their own manufacturing.
>
> "Design engineers" at bicycle companies, LOL. You have marketing people
> visiting Taiwan and China telling a contract manufacturer which of their
> frames to use, which components to use, and what color to paint the
> bicycle. There is still some design going on at the high end, and for
> specialty products like folding bicycles. If your volumes are high
> enough you can tell the factories to make some modifications to their
> standard products.
>

I understand that's how many "manufacturers" work these days. Still, in
the four-digit price range I expect that they instruct and monitor their
contract suppliers properly. Or hire consultants to design and keep tabs
on things. I do this for a living, as an engineer, but mostly in the
areas of aerospace, oil, industrial, med-tech. For some smaller clients
I am their only electronics guy.

> Whether it's REI with their Novara brand, or Bikesdirect with whatever
> defunct brand name they've purchased this month, it's not that hard to
> get into the bicycle business, you just need a distribution channel, a
> few employees that know what will sell, and a contract manufacturer. QBP
> realized this and came out with several brands of complete bicycles, and
> some are very good.
>
> Both Trek and Specialized have explicitly warned against drilling holes
> in their frames. Not just because it voids the warranty, but because of
> the difficulty of the proper placement of holes and the danger of
> creating stress risers in the frame.
>

Which may now have resulted in the Specialized Enduro MTB of a friend
now sitting in his garage with substantial moisture in the BB because we
forded a river together. Great.

> Unfortunately, the customers are often left to work around issues with
> whatever they buy. Jay looks for way to add fenders to bicycles without
> fender mounts. Lots of people look for ways to add more water bottle
> mounts or racks. The buying process is to look for something as close as
> you can get to what you want and then take it from there. Hopefully it
> does not involve destroying the structural integrity of the product as
> we have seen advocated by one person in r.b.t.!
>

Someone hacked his bike too far?

I don't mind the occasional bike improvement project but it's tough on
those of us who have to make do with a limited set of hand tools and not
enough space for a lathe and stuff. It also detracts from riding since
such projects cost time.

After I bought my SUV in 1997 I had to modify ... nothing.

[Doug Landau]

> For example, I didn't want to own 3 tool kits just so I
> could drive away instantly.

I don't mind owning and maintaining a toolkit for every bike, what I can't figure out is how to keep the tubes in them in sync with the wheels on the bike.

I have two roadbikes and three wheelsets. And four or five underseat bags. two wheelsets require 50-60 mm long stems and the other works with shorter stems.

Since it is so easy to swap in a different wheel for a while, I keep ending up with a flat and a spare tube I can't inflate.

I guess the solution to this is obvious but for some reason it keeps happening.

dkl

[James]

On 06/11/15 21:33, John B. wrote:

>
> Typically an auto alternator needs to be turning about 1,800 RPM to
> generate 12 Volts.

Irrelevant.

--
JS

[Clive George]

On 06/11/2015 20:08, Phil W Lee wrote:

> Two potentially huge benefits are that:
> 1) You can always spin the pedals backwards to charge a standlight
> capacitor, and:
> 2) If you do find the lights too dim while going uphill, you can just
> change down to get more light.

If you used an old sturmey 3-speed, you could miss a gearchange and
light your way while stationery.

[Joe Riel]

Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk> writes:

> James <james.e...@gmail.com> considered Fri, 6 Nov 2015 17:32:24

> I just checked the jockey wheel on my 'bent (SRAM SX4) and it has 11
> teeth. It's probably reasonable to assume that any dynamo driven from
> it would be rotating at least as fast as the rear wheel, which on most
> bikes is going to be the same speed as the front wheel - and hub
> dynamos seem to work perfectly well at that speed, so you can
> undoubtedly design one which will perform adequately on a jockey
> wheel. It is not going to be the same unit as one which is used in a
> roller dynamo though, because it isn't going to be spinning as fast.
> If anyone is using a rear sprocket smaller than 11 teeth, they are
> probably going fast enough that dynamo speed isn't likely to be a
> problem!

> Two potentially huge benefits are that:
> 1) You can always spin the pedals backwards to charge a standlight
> capacitor, and:
> 2) If you do find the lights too dim while going uphill, you can just
> change down to get more light.

There is the disadvantage that you must now pedal while going downhill
if you want to see. Not ideal in some situations.

--
Joe Riel

[sms]

On 11/6/2015 12:45 PM, Joe Riel wrote:

> There is the disadvantage that you must now pedal while going downhill
> if you want to see. Not ideal in some situations.

Sounds like more of the "danger danger" that we are constantly warned
about by one poster.

Why do you need to see when you're going downhill? Or just pedal
backwards. Or have the dynamo charge a battery. There must be some way
to make this dynamo a good idea!

But seriously, there really is becoming a need for at least a small
dynamo on higher end bicycles to power things like the electronic
shifters, torque sensors, and other sensors. When I was at Specialized
last year, and was talking to them about various sensors, I asked about
the battery life issue. They said that their market research had shown
that people were willing to charge their bicycles more often in order to
have a smaller battery that weighed less. Even a very low power dynamo,
integrated into the crankset or jockey wheel, could produce enough power
to keep the batteries charged.

[John B.]

On Fri, 6 Nov 2015 11:05:15 -0800 (PST), Doug Landau
<doug....@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>> For example, I didn't want to own 3 tool kits just so I
>> could drive away instantly.
>
>I don't mind owning and maintaining a toolkit for every bike, what I can't figure out is how to keep the tubes in them in sync with the wheels on the bike.
>
>I have two roadbikes and three wheelsets. And four or five underseat bags. two wheelsets require 50-60 mm long stems and the other works with shorter stems.
>

Assuming that your tubes have "presta valves" a long valve stem will
work in a thin rim. They may look a bit odd but they will certainly
get you home :-)

>Since it is so easy to swap in a different wheel for a while, I keep ending up with a flat and a spare tube I can't inflate.
>
>I guess the solution to this is obvious but for some reason it keeps happening.
>
>dkl

--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 9:29:31 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>
> I see a lot of frames naked. Internal rust is uncommon and
> associated with 'closed' tubes. Moisture always gets in, the
> key is to let it out. Skipping or closing off vent holes is
> poor practice.

About seven years ago, I welded up a set of ornamental rails for the balcony
my wife wanted on our house. Some of the components were square steel tubing.
I didn't put vent holes in them, because I figured I was welding all around
each end, sealing them off.

I guess I failed. Some of the tubes have inhaled enough moisture that the
bottoms have bulged because of expansion during freezing. So I added drain
or vent holes, sort of closing the barn door after the horses left.

The inhaling mechanism isn't obvious to me. I guess if there's any moisture
at all present near a microscopic opening and the air temperature drops,
the internal drop in pressure sucks the moisture in, and it can never
evaporate out? In any case, any outdoor structure I weld up in the future
is going to have drain/vent holes.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 11:11:57 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
> On 2015-11-06 06:29, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 11/6/2015 8:12 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On Thursday, November 5, 2015 at 8:07:40 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The BB on my bikes have a weep hole at the lowest point. I have seen
> >>> some high-Dollar MTB that didn't have that. Beats me why not since
> >>> standing water is a recipe for bearing problems.
> >>
> >> I suppose a person could always drill such a weep hole if necessary.
> >>
> >> Oh... but I've read here that a person needs a completely equipped
> >> machine shop
> >> to drill a hole in a bike frame. So never mind.
> >>
> >> ;-)
> >>
>
> Maybe it hasn't occurred to you that such a hole must be deburred and
> you also have to clean out the drill chips. I thought that was obvious.
> To accomplish those tasks you have to remove the whole BB assembly and
> that usually requires special tools which not everyone has.

I don't think most BB holes would really need to be deburred, but it's
very easy to do anyway. It's also easy to clear chips. It's not difficult to
pull the bottom bracket, drill the hole properly, then reassemble.

In an ideal world, every bike would be perfect for each purchaser. But
it doesn't take a fully-equipped machine shop to make minor modifications.

- Frank Krygowski

[Clive George]

On 06/11/2015 16:12, Joerg wrote:

> To accomplish those tasks you have to remove the whole BB assembly and
> that usually requires special tools which not everyone has.

Anybody who's going to be going as far as to drill a vent hole in their
BB really should have enough tools to replace a BB - that's routine
maintenance on a bike. If they're getting their shop to replace BBs,
they can get them to put the vent hole in.

[John B.]

You need to do better welds, or maybe have them x-rayed :-) there
isn't supposed to be any tiny little holes :-)

The usually stated reason for holes in bike frame tubes is to vent the
tube to keep from blowing the brazing material out of the joints due
to air expansion.
--
cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Right. The same phenomenon is seen in cars where panel
drains are plugged with leaves or crud, especially in doors.
The whole panel bottom just falls away.

[Joerg]

So what is your explanation for such holes missing in many bicycles?

Besides, many shops will refuse such mods because of potential liablity.

[Joerg]

On 2015-11-06 21:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Friday, November 6, 2015 at 11:11:57 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-11-06 06:29, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 11/6/2015 8:12 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, November 5, 2015 at 8:07:40 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The BB on my bikes have a weep hole at the lowest point. I have seen
>>>>> some high-Dollar MTB that didn't have that. Beats me why not since
>>>>> standing water is a recipe for bearing problems.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose a person could always drill such a weep hole if necessary.
>>>>
>>>> Oh... but I've read here that a person needs a completely equipped
>>>> machine shop
>>>> to drill a hole in a bike frame. So never mind.
>>>>
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>
>> Maybe it hasn't occurred to you that such a hole must be deburred and
>> you also have to clean out the drill chips. I thought that was obvious.
>> To accomplish those tasks you have to remove the whole BB assembly and
>> that usually requires special tools which not everyone has.
>
> I don't think most BB holes would really need to be deburred, but it's
> very easy to do anyway.

If not deburred moisture can remain in there. Moisture + metal + long
time -> not a good thing.

It's also easy to clear chips. It's not difficult to
> pull the bottom bracket, drill the hole properly, then reassemble.
>

> In an ideal world, every bike would be perfect for each purchaser. ...


It's got nothing to do with customization, this is basic engineering
stuff. Assuming something will never have any moisture ingress is poor
engineering and should be flagged in any reasonable design review. If
they do always design reviews in the first place which I doubt ...


> ... But

> it doesn't take a fully-equipped machine shop to make minor modifications.
>

It does take specialty tools to remove a BB assembly, tools which >90%
of riders do not have.

[Clive George]

On 07/11/2015 17:42, Joerg wrote:

> It does take specialty tools to remove a BB assembly, tools which >90%
> of riders do not have.

What proportion of riders are on walmart specials?

[Lou Holtman]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> On 2015-11-06 21:15, Clive George wrote:
>> On 06/11/2015 16:12, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>> To accomplish those tasks you have to remove the whole BB assembly and
>>> that usually requires special tools which not everyone has.
>>
>> Anybody who's going to be going as far as to drill a vent hole in their
>> BB really should have enough tools to replace a BB - that's routine
>> maintenance on a bike. If they're getting their shop to replace BBs,
>> they can get them to put the vent hole in.
>>
>
> So what is your explanation for such holes missing in many bicycles?
>

They just forgot to drill a hole. I build quite some bikes from scratch
starting with a frame. Some frames already had a drain hole in the BB shell
some didn't. In case the frame didn't have a drain hole I drilled it
myself. No problem. It would be strange that a drain hole would be a
problem and the threated hole for attaching the cable guide not.

> Besides, many shops will refuse such mods because of potential liablity.
>

That doesn't mean anything.


--
Lou

[AMuzi]

Not a simple question.

Of new units sold, abut 75% more or less. Lower for
adult-only units, something in the 66% range usually. New
unit dollars per year are not so dramatically different.

One might reasonably ask about mileage or days of use per
rider per year or some such for mass market versus specialty
stores but those are again different questions.

[Joerg]

On 2015-11-07 10:29, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/7/2015 12:00 PM, Clive George wrote:
>> On 07/11/2015 17:42, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>> It does take specialty tools to remove a BB assembly,
>>> tools which >90%
>>> of riders do not have.
>>
>> What proportion of riders are on walmart specials?
>>
>>
>
> Not a simple question.
>
> Of new units sold, abut 75% more or less. Lower for adult-only units,
> something in the 66% range usually. New unit dollars per year are not so
> dramatically different.
>
> One might reasonably ask about mileage or days of use per rider per year
> or some such for mass market versus specialty stores but those are again
> different questions.
>

Exactly. IME the mileage per Walmart bike is very low and typically not
spent in serious MTB turf where water ingress is a problem.

However, those on real MTB generally do not have special tools these
days. Most bring their bikes to the dealer for servicing and tune-up
just like they do with their cars. It cannot be expected that they bring
the MTB to the dealer every time they forded a river or took a dump in
an unexpectedly flooded area.

[Joerg]

On 2015-11-07 10:21, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>> On 2015-11-06 21:15, Clive George wrote:
>>> On 06/11/2015 16:12, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>>> To accomplish those tasks you have to remove the whole BB assembly and
>>>> that usually requires special tools which not everyone has.
>>>
>>> Anybody who's going to be going as far as to drill a vent hole in their
>>> BB really should have enough tools to replace a BB - that's routine
>>> maintenance on a bike. If they're getting their shop to replace BBs,
>>> they can get them to put the vent hole in.
>>>
>>
>> So what is your explanation for such holes missing in many bicycles?
>>
>
> They just forgot to drill a hole. I build quite some bikes from scratch
> starting with a frame. Some frames already had a drain hole in the BB shell
> some didn't. In case the frame didn't have a drain hole I drilled it
> myself. No problem. It would be strange that a drain hole would be a
> problem and the threated hole for attaching the cable guide not.
>

We are talking about purchased bikes, not home-built.

>> Besides, many shops will refuse such mods because of potential liablity.
>>
>
> That doesn't mean anything.
>

You have no idea.

[Lou Holtman]

A collegue thinks also that his frame will fall apart if a 4 mm hole is
drilled in the BB shell as I suggested to get rid of the water he found
when he serviced his crankset. Now after every wet ride and that is
more than 50% of the rides in the winter he takes of his seatpost and
saddle and puts his bike uside down for a while.


--

Lou

[Joerg]

Maybe you can convince him to drill at least a 2mm hole and cram a wick
in there that gradually sucks out the moisture :-)

BTW, it's the same with rims. After I had a major *KABOOM* event that
shredded the tire, tube, rear light and stuff I was surprised that
almost everything in there was wet. I hadn't ridden through water in at
least two weeks (many creeks here have dried up). That also finally
explained the squishing sounds I hear from the front wheel once in a while.

[John B.]

On Sat, 07 Nov 2015 09:42:43 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

I can only assume that if moisture ingress is poor engineering then
equally moisture egress would also be poor engineering.

Which makes one wonder about the long distance pipelines that
transport oil and gas...

>
>> ... But
>> it doesn't take a fully-equipped machine shop to make minor modifications.
>>
>
>It does take specialty tools to remove a BB assembly, tools which >90%
>of riders do not have.
--

cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 07 Nov 2015 09:37:48 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2015-11-06 21:15, Clive George wrote:
>> On 06/11/2015 16:12, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>> To accomplish those tasks you have to remove the whole BB assembly and
>>> that usually requires special tools which not everyone has.
>>
>> Anybody who's going to be going as far as to drill a vent hole in their
>> BB really should have enough tools to replace a BB - that's routine
>> maintenance on a bike. If they're getting their shop to replace BBs,
>> they can get them to put the vent hole in.
>>
>
>So what is your explanation for such holes missing in many bicycles?

They aren't "missing" as you would have it. The manufacturer just
didn't bother to put them in, just as they often don't bother with
fittings for fenders, rear racks and so on. My wife's Honda doesn't
have the VVT engine, but the engine isn't missing.

>
>Besides, many shops will refuse such mods because of potential liablity.

So? I know of a case where a shop fitted a long valve stem tube in
spite of the owner asking for a short valve stem tube. The reason,
"because that is what was originally installed"...
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

Au contraire. One shall never assume there can't be ingress, hence ...

Reminds me of the believers in going tubeless on MTB. "Hey, I've got a
patch kit, we could fix it real quick" ... "Nah, no tube in there". He
had to walk because I didn't have a spare tube with me.

> Which makes one wonder about the long distance pipelines that
> transport oil and gas...
>

Very different ballgame. There is moisture but it moves. I also have not
(yet) heard any cases where a slew of little electric trucks is
regularly sent through the BB of a bicycle on a regular basis, to
provide x-ray and ultrasound wall and weld integrity checks.

[...]

[Joerg]

On 2015-11-07 21:58, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Nov 2015 09:37:48 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-11-06 21:15, Clive George wrote:
>>> On 06/11/2015 16:12, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>>> To accomplish those tasks you have to remove the whole BB assembly and
>>>> that usually requires special tools which not everyone has.
>>>
>>> Anybody who's going to be going as far as to drill a vent hole in their
>>> BB really should have enough tools to replace a BB - that's routine
>>> maintenance on a bike. If they're getting their shop to replace BBs,
>>> they can get them to put the vent hole in.
>>>
>>
>> So what is your explanation for such holes missing in many bicycles?
>
> They aren't "missing" as you would have it. The manufacturer just
> didn't bother to put them in, just as they often don't bother with
> fittings for fenders, rear racks and so on. My wife's Honda doesn't
> have the VVT engine, but the engine isn't missing.
>

It has another engine in there.

Weep holes are safety and corrosion mitigation features. When they are
missing it's just that, they are missing. IMO a poor design choice.
Heck, even our metal lawn chairs have them.

>>
>> Besides, many shops will refuse such mods because of potential liablity.
>
> So? I know of a case where a shop fitted a long valve stem tube in
> spite of the owner asking for a short valve stem tube. The reason,
> "because that is what was originally installed"...

That goes a bit far. But frame mod requests will easily be refused just
as your car repair shop would generally not start punching out metals
sections to reduce the weight of your car. A rallye tuning shop would
but that's not a normal repair shop or dealership.

With larger chains there can also be well lawyered-out policies spelling
out what they are allowed and not allowed to do. Their liability
insurance provider also has a say in this. The manufacturer can also
forbid it plus void any warranty if they'd do it anyhow. Example from my
line of work: Pretty much all electronics components I use in my designs
are not permitted to be used on life support equipment.

[sms]

On 11/8/2015 8:33 AM, Joerg wrote:

> With larger chains there can also be well lawyered-out policies spelling
> out what they are allowed and not allowed to do. Their liability
> insurance provider also has a say in this. The manufacturer can also
> forbid it plus void any warranty if they'd do it anyhow. Example from my
> line of work: Pretty much all electronics components I use in my designs
> are not permitted to be used on life support equipment.

I recall Sheldon, or someone else, saying that the production of
aluminum frames was actually less automated than that of steel frames.

The frame manufacturer may have decided to leave out the drilling of
that hole and the brand that sold the finished goods didn't think
anything of it.

Don't think that the major bicycle companies have hundreds of mechanical
engineers designing their bicycles and thinking about issues like weep
holes and fender mounts. They have marketing people trying to figure out
how to save 5¢ per unit.

[John B.]

On Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:25:02 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

A different Ball game? How so, pipe lines are built with the
expectation that there will be no leakage into or out of the pipeline.
So how is that bad engineering?

The "little electric trucks" are only used because it is awful hard,
even with a Cree flash light, see how the inside of a 100 mile tube
looks.

The standard test, for certification purposes, is still, to the best
of my knowledge, a simple 24 hour pressure test.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 08 Nov 2015 08:33:39 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

wrote:

>On 2015-11-07 21:58, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2015 09:37:48 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2015-11-06 21:15, Clive George wrote:
>>>> On 06/11/2015 16:12, Joerg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> To accomplish those tasks you have to remove the whole BB assembly and
>>>>> that usually requires special tools which not everyone has.
>>>>
>>>> Anybody who's going to be going as far as to drill a vent hole in their
>>>> BB really should have enough tools to replace a BB - that's routine
>>>> maintenance on a bike. If they're getting their shop to replace BBs,
>>>> they can get them to put the vent hole in.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So what is your explanation for such holes missing in many bicycles?
>>
>> They aren't "missing" as you would have it. The manufacturer just
>> didn't bother to put them in, just as they often don't bother with
>> fittings for fenders, rear racks and so on. My wife's Honda doesn't
>> have the VVT engine, but the engine isn't missing.
>>
>It has another engine in there.
>
>Weep holes are safety and corrosion mitigation features. When they are
>missing it's just that, they are missing. IMO a poor design choice.
>Heck, even our metal lawn chairs have them.
>

Are they now? I've got a Japanese made bicycle frame, that Andrew
estimates may have been built in the 80's, with no drain holes and no
rust.

I was certified, many years ago, to build airplane frames out of steel
tubing, specified by the governing agency, to have no weep holes,

Does your fuel tank, vehicle or stationary, have weep holes?

Your all encompassing statement that a lack of weep holes is poor
engineering is a statement showing a definite lack of knowledge
regarding engineering.

>>>
>>> Besides, many shops will refuse such mods because of potential liablity.
>>
>> So? I know of a case where a shop fitted a long valve stem tube in
>> spite of the owner asking for a short valve stem tube. The reason,
>> "because that is what was originally installed"...
>
>
>That goes a bit far. But frame mod requests will easily be refused just
>as your car repair shop would generally not start punching out metals
>sections to reduce the weight of your car. A rallye tuning shop would
>but that's not a normal repair shop or dealership.
>
>With larger chains there can also be well lawyered-out policies spelling
>out what they are allowed and not allowed to do. Their liability
>insurance provider also has a say in this. The manufacturer can also
>forbid it plus void any warranty if they'd do it anyhow. Example from my
>line of work: Pretty much all electronics components I use in my designs
>are not permitted to be used on life support equipment.
--

cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

They are tested and there are rules and regulations about this. Pinging
tests, ultrasound, ferrography et cetera. It's like with cars where (in
the US) you must pass a smog check every two years, else you can't drive it.

> So how is that bad engineering?
>

A BB without a weep hole is bad engineering. That's what I meant.

> The "little electric trucks" are only used because it is awful hard,
> even with a Cree flash light, see how the inside of a 100 mile tube
> looks.
>
> The standard test, for certification purposes, is still, to the best
> of my knowledge, a simple 24 hour pressure test.

It is a little more involved than that.

http://petrofed.winwinhosting.net/upload/16%20Sep%2011/Presentation/Session%202/AK%20Guha.pdf

[Joerg]

Learn to distinguish between individual parts instead of lumping
everything together. No, a human heart should of course not have a weep
hole.

A BB without a weep hole but chances of water ingress is poor design.
Plain and simple.

[...]

[Joerg]

On 2015-11-08 12:18, sms wrote:
> On 11/8/2015 8:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> With larger chains there can also be well lawyered-out policies spelling
>> out what they are allowed and not allowed to do. Their liability
>> insurance provider also has a say in this. The manufacturer can also
>> forbid it plus void any warranty if they'd do it anyhow. Example from my
>> line of work: Pretty much all electronics components I use in my designs
>> are not permitted to be used on life support equipment.
>
> I recall Sheldon, or someone else, saying that the production of
> aluminum frames was actually less automated than that of steel frames.
>
> The frame manufacturer may have decided to leave out the drilling of
> that hole and the brand that sold the finished goods didn't think
> anything of it.
>

Shame on that manufacturer.

> Don't think that the major bicycle companies have hundreds of mechanical
> engineers designing their bicycles and thinking about issues like weep
> holes and fender mounts. They have marketing people trying to figure out
> how to save 5¢ per unit.
>

That's what I call bad product design. When marketing people get to
decide engineering stuff it'll all be downhill from there. On a bike in
the serious four-digit Dollar class I expect this to be done correctly
and not omitted because 5c was too much.

I am glad that the manufacturer of my MTB (Fuji) and that of my road
bike frame (Gazelle) were smarter and did it correctly. Both have BB
weep holes. It is also an item I regularly check during PM, to make sure
they aren't plugged up with dirt. That takes one or two seconds at chain
chain lube time.

[Joerg]

On 2015-11-09 11:47, Phil W Lee wrote:
> John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> considered Mon, 09 Nov 2015 06:58:03

> Sometimes pressure and vacuum - it's surprising how many leaks can
> behave as non-return valves. I've come across hydraulic hoses that
> will take over 100 BAR pressure without trouble, but leak air on
> suction. It's one that's worth thinking about with hydraulic brakes
> that won't bleed completely firm.
>

You must be talking about my MTB brakes :-)

Rear pulled all the way to the handlebar. Opened reservoir, still full
... puzzling. Gently pushed lever ... fffffart ... bubbles come out.
Shut the lid again, had not added a single drop of DOT4 -> everything
nice and firm just like new.

Unfortunately Amazon sells the Promax Decipher bleed kits (must have
long nipples for the calipers) only in the UK :-(

[sms]

I love the cable-operated disc brakes on my mountain bike. I would not
trust hydraulic brakes on a mountain bike.

[Lou Holtman]

Trust? What is there to trust? Cables can break too or frozen (that is
really scary). I hope you don't have cable operated brakes in your car. I'm
not say that there are no issues with hydraulic discbrakes, but they never
failed dramatically.

--
Lou

[Joerg]

Totally the opposite with me. I have ridden MTB with cable brakes and I
don't want any of them. If I'd inherited one I'd order a set of
hydraulic brakes this very minute. Hydraulics can stop you on a dime.
Most of all, they do not snap.

[John B.]

On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 09:57:28 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

But as I previously said, I've got a 1980's built frame with no
interior corrosion. Is the lack of a bottom bracket drain poor
engineering if after 35 years the frame shows no corrosion?

Are off the road bikes designed to ford deep streams? I strongly doubt
that they are. But you did it and got water in the frame...

Is that poor engineering? Or improper use of the machine?

I would comment that devices intended to be partially submerges as a
condition of use are designed with methods of reducing or eliminating
water ingress. Boat trailers, for example.

I might also comment that there are literally millions of "mountain
bikes" in use and you are first I've seen to comment on the lack of a
water proof bottom bracket is "poor engineering".

So, I repeat. Is it poor engineering? Or improper use of the machine?
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 10:05:14 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

You really are amazing... "When marketing people get to
decide"? Of course they decide, who else?

Or do you live in some dream world where one designs the ultimate in
engineering efficiency and ends up with a bicycle that costs
$1,000,000?

Whereupon the engineering department awakens Monday morning to
discover that the company is bankrupt.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Clive George]

On 09/11/2015 21:24, sms wrote:

> I love the cable-operated disc brakes on my mountain bike. I would not
> trust hydraulic brakes on a mountain bike.

Sometimes you can be quite funny.

[Joerg]

Depends on your riding. Another example: Electrical equipment with
missing ground connections on touchable parts is poor engineering even
if nothing ever happened.

> Are off the road bikes designed to ford deep streams? I strongly doubt
> that they are.

Yes, they are expected to stomach that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meVhLDXUmSo

Just like it is with dirt bikes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYjv2saib0

And here is how not to do it :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdtpsG--V3I



> ... But you did it and got water in the frame...
>

I didn't. Since my bike's BB is properly designed it ran back out. My
friend's bike OTOH, well, he better take the BB apart some day and check.

> Is that poor engineering? Or improper use of the machine?
>
> I would comment that devices intended to be partially submerges as a
> condition of use are designed with methods of reducing or eliminating
> water ingress. Boat trailers, for example.
>
> I might also comment that there are literally millions of "mountain
> bikes" in use and you are first I've seen to comment on the lack of a
> water proof bottom bracket is "poor engineering".
>
> So, I repeat. Is it poor engineering? Or improper use of the machine?

It is poor engineering. A MTB must be designed so it can take a serious
splash. Not just fording but also for running into mud puddles of the
"Oh s..t!" kind which surprisingly turn out to be mud lakes.

Maybe you don't remember that or you guys never got those into Thailand:
In some stores in the US they used to sell mountain bikes with a sticker
on there saying something like "Not for offroad use". No kidding!