Re: I Got Beacons

[Joe Riel]

jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:

> I forget to to alert Frank: I now have road flashers -- or in Portland-speak, "bicycle beacons." Be jealous.
>
> http://www.katu.com/news/local/New-bike-warning-beacons-installed-on-Barbur-Boulevard-250208441.html?tab=video&c=y
>
> http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2014/03/4_flashing_bicycle_beacons_wil.html
>
>
> The bad news is that the sensor loops are too far to the right and too close to the bridges. I like getting out sooner.
>
> I love the hysteria -- a "harrowing commute." I rode that route for 10-15 years with nothing more than a fog line. I like my bike lane, though, so I'm not going to complain.
>

What's with the "Bike lane closed ahead" sign being off the roadway?
Shouldn't it be placed in the middle of the car lane? Around here,
whenever a "Lane closed ahead" sign appears, it always goes in the bike
lane 8-).

--
Joe Riel

[jbeattie]

I forget to to alert Frank: I now have road flashers -- or in Portland-speak, "bicycle beacons." Be jealous.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/New-bike-warning-beacons-installed-on-Barbur-Boulevard-250208441.html?tab=video&c=y

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2014/03/4_flashing_bicycle_beacons_wil.html


The bad news is that the sensor loops are too far to the right and too close to the bridges. I like getting out sooner.

I love the hysteria -- a "harrowing commute." I rode that route for 10-15 years with nothing more than a fog line. I like my bike lane, though, so I'm not going to complain.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

It'll be interesting to see how the flashers work out. Do you still
ride that route? Give us your impressions if you do.

There certainly are roads that are less than pleasant for cycling.
While I never rode SW Barbur, it looks like it could fit that
description. Widening the bridges would help greatly, but that's an
expensive proposition.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

http://goo.gl/56SgtG


TX boasts 2 laners thru strip mall country at 60-70 mph.

[jbeattie]

I ride it on most mornings, although I go through the hills sometimes. I usually take a different route home unless I'm in a hurry.

The bridges are a pinch point and a place where I take more of the lane. The real problem, though, is that after the snow and rain, they are really rutted -- and rutted worst near the center, or at least where I usually ride about a third of the way out. Now I have to get way out to avoid the ruts or ride near the curb, which does invite close passing by some (buses mainly). So, I feel a little better riding lane center with the flashers, but I would feel even better if the pavement were fixed. All in all, I have had only rare problems going over the bridges in the last 30 years, but being that I am a precious bicyclist -- like a rare spotted owl or naked mole rat -- I appreciate the enhanced protection.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

JAY....the bridges have no pedestrian walkways use able for bicycling or walk thru bicycling ? The rider is forced to ride in traffic ?

How's this work when the sun's setting ?

where's Portland bike karma ?

[jbeattie]

You could take the walkway, but it's like threading a needle. You can usually take the lane. And if you have a swarm of cyclists, the whole lane. http://tinyurl.com/nrdm4dm (some sort of make-a-point ride).

Traffic can be bad during rush hour because Barbur is an alternate to HWY 5, but in off peak times, it is just a moderately busy arterial with mostly local traffic. The posted limit is 45mph, but 55mph is typical. Yahoos can hit the bridges going pretty fast. Local news likes to portray it as a scary hell hole, but it's not that bad. One guy got hit a while back and another got killed. Both were in the bike lane and not on the bridges, but that was enough to pique the interest of the local advocates, news channels, Chicken-Littles, etc. Something needs to be done! Let's put on a show! http://tinyurl.com/nok9uzw

Somewhat more OT, I went to all the recent tent and warehouse sales at the LBSs and eves-dropped on the youngsters, which isn't hard because they like to yell about their exploits. I was really surprised at all the complaining about traffic and how scary it was to ride here or there. You would think they were talking about base-jumping and not commuting. These guys and gals appeared fit and looked the part of serious cyclists, but they sounded like a bunch of old ladies, and not Frank's old ladies who take the lane in defiance of cars, trucks, buses . . . Herkimer battle jitneys.

-- Jay Beattie.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/13747796955/in/photostream/

riding here...

strip mall riding is difficult..eventually you get hit. best going around.

kids gravitate to 'base jumping'....too much coffee yakyakyak...they're trying to impress.

when itsnot raining looks like rain

grouped with a large box looks safe !

[x]

a good law

ALL CYCLE GROUPS OVER 6 IN NUMBER WILL BE ACCOMPANOED BY A LARGE BOX

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 11:38:11 PM UTC-4, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> a good law
>
>
>
> ALL CYCLE GROUPS OVER 6 IN NUMBER WILL BE ACCOMPANOED BY A LARGE BOX

box filled with birds found near Mt Tabor ?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/16/2014 9:13 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> Somewhat more OT, I went to all the recent tent and warehouse sales at the LBSs
and eves-dropped on the youngsters, which isn't hard because they like
to yell about
their exploits. I was really surprised at all the complaining about
traffic and how
scary it was to ride here or there. You would think they were talking
about base-jumping
and not commuting. These guys and gals appeared fit and looked the part
of serious
cyclists, but they sounded like a bunch of old ladies, and not Frank's
old ladies
who take the lane in defiance of cars, trucks, buses . . . Herkimer
battle jitneys.

I wonder what percentage of young "serious cyclists" ever consider
trying to learn about how to best handle traffic?

My guess is: Zero percent.

See, everybody already knows everything about bicycling, and
particularly about bike safety.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Dan O]

Thank you, Professor Krygowski, for your expert analysis of
"kids these days".

Shuffle off, already.

(On another note, there's a car stalled on Interstate 5 this
morning. TV news reporter is advising motorists to use Barbur
Blvd.)

[Dan O]

On Thursday, April 17, 2014 7:46:57 AM UTC-7, Dan O wrote:

<snip>

> On another note, there's a car stalled on Interstate 5 this
> morning. TV news reporter is advising motorists to use Barbur
> Blvd.

Update: TV news reports "enormous backups" all over PDX.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

drinking urine causes backups

[Duane]

This is news chez vous?

[jbeattie]

Hmmm. It didn't seem that bad coming in this morning in the rain. I dutifully hit the induction loops and got my flashers going over the death bridges. I had some close-ish passers, but nothing remarkable. EXCEPT -- now I remember (repressed memory) -- I almost got plastered by some guy entering traffic from the right. He launched over the limit line in to the bike lane, and I locked up my brakes for a second or two and yelled at him. Right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw2WjH0v5sw Except no left hook, the guy just launched in to the bike lane from the right. It happens a lot through there with the traffic entering from these little sled hills. It's a good reason for riding out in to the lane a bit, which is what I usually do.

Tech content: I love my disc brakes in the rain, and Conti Gatorskins are pretty great, too.

And for Frank, a lot of the young and fit know exactly what has been taught them in spin class. I come across many riders with big engines who are squirrels on bikes. Lately, I've been running into the hyper vigilant who incessantly point things out on the road -- the hand gestures are so frequent that it looks like a dance routine from Saturday Night Fever. It looks like they went to some rider-training class, and that was the only message that stuck -- point things out!

I think my brother (who has a lot of time in the saddle) is too timid. We were riding in the middle of nowhere through a picturesque clear-cut on straight section of Larch Mountain Rd. He hears a truck and dips toward the shoulder. I say f-that, and stay riding out. There is plenty of room to pass. Apparently that pissed off the guy in the Ram SUX 6000 super-truck with the ATVs in the back. He floored it and passed me with about an inch to spare -- just to make a point. It's a GD road through a national forest with no outlet! It's not like I was blocking his way to McDonalds or Pep Boys. This all by way of saying that if people want to f*** with you, they will.

-- Jay Beattie.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

JB, as we age our reflexes slow faster than our judgment.

[Dan O]

Well, they also told us it's raining.

[Duane]

lol. I just meant that traffic backups here are so normal that it would
be news if they didn't exist. Spring starts construction time and with
the potholes from the winter and the backlogged construction jobs and
the bad planning traffic is bad.

Bikes are a good alternative.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/17/2014 12:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
>
> And for Frank, a lot of the young and fit know exactly what has been taught
them in spin class.

That's what I figured. But careful, Jay, or Dan will be in your
(virtual) face for demeaning the young and fit.

> I come across many riders with big engines who are squirrels
on bikes. Lately, I've been running into the hyper vigilant who incessantly
point things out on the road -- the hand gestures are so frequent that it
looks like a dance routine from Saturday Night Fever. It looks like they
went to some rider-training class, and that was the only message that stuck
-- point things out!

Heh. I went on a club ride this morning - retirement is nice! - and
noticed that nobody was pointing out potholes. That's because after
this winter, there are so many potholes that pointing them would require
using both hands simultaneously. That might make steering through them
even more difficult than usual.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/17/2014 12:58 PM, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> JB, as we age our reflexes slow faster than our judgment.
>

I judge that my reflexes are still pretty good.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Dan O]

On Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:24:31 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/17/2014 12:58 PM, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:

> > JB, as we age our reflexes slow faster than our judgment.
> >
>

> I judge...

Try to take it easy on that.

[Frank Krygowski]

Sounds like you're judging me again.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

WHO GIVES A DAM ABT YOUR REFLEXES OL GOAT

sheet wandering around flat cow pastures in Ohio.

paranoid. watcha gonna dew ride thru manure ?

NYT has an Op-ED on the new American urban scene....doo doo.....

leading off with mention of Portland as a modern hipster hang out..

forget Fla.....let see who did I go shopping with today....

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/17/2014 10:55 PM, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> WHO GIVES A DAM ABT YOUR REFLEXES OL GOAT

So, people come here instead to read about your kayaking weather?

Um... got it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn


Franko....weez pullin urleg.....

frankly touring Ohio isn't a machup for Portland commuting....generalizing the experiences. as long you're avoiding Fri/Sat heavy moments.

I didnah post kayak here ? The Boomerang is on the charts . Very exciting as the entire deal was new experiences. Not Freya but for the first time I turned away from the mainland n headed out to landless sea with GPS for landfall.

and successful trip.

stunning variable weather. Summer to Fall in 4 days.

[Dan O]

On Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:23:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/17/2014 12:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:

> > And for Frank, a lot of the young and fit know exactly what has been taught
them in spin class.
> >

> That's what I figured. But careful, Jay, or Dan will be in your
> (virtual) face for demeaning the young and fit.

Heh.

> > I come across many riders with big engines who are squirrels
on bikes. Lately, I've been running into the hyper vigilant who incessantly
point things out on the road -- the hand gestures are so frequent that it
looks like a dance routine from Saturday Night Fever. It looks like they
went to some rider-training class, and that was the only message that stuck
-- point things out!
> >

> Heh. I went on a club ride this morning - retirement is nice! - and
> noticed that nobody was pointing out potholes. That's because after
> this winter, there are so many potholes that pointing them would require
> using both hands simultaneously. That might make steering through them
> even more difficult than usual.

"Potholes occur when snow and ice melt as part of... seasonal
freeze-thaw cycles. The resulting water then seeps beneath the
pavement through cracks... "

"... _caused by the wear and tear of traffic_."

"As the temperatures cool to freezing at night, the water becomes
ice and expands below the pavement, forcing the pavement to rise.
As... "

"... _the weight of traffic continues to pound_... "

"... on this raised section - and the temperatures once again rise
above freezing - a shallow divot occurs under the surface and the
pavement breaks, forming a pothole."

Still prefer sharing roads with motor traffic?

[Sir Ridesalot]

Potholes also occur when snowplows take out chunks of asphalt.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/19/2014 4:48 PM, Dan O wrote:
>
>
> "Potholes occur when snow and ice melt as part of... seasonal
> freeze-thaw cycles. The resulting water then seeps beneath the
> pavement through cracks... "
>
> "... _caused by the wear and tear of traffic_."
>
> "As the temperatures cool to freezing at night, the water becomes
> ice and expands below the pavement, forcing the pavement to rise.
> As... "
>
> "... _the weight of traffic continues to pound_..."
>
> "... on this raised section - and the temperatures once again rise
> above freezing - a shallow divot occurs under the surface and the
> pavement breaks, forming a pothole."
>
> Still prefer sharing roads with motor traffic?

No, you've convinced me. We should all stop riding our bikes until
there are special bike-only roads everywhere we want to go.

I hope you get that completed really soon.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Dude, it's already a reality. http://odditymall.com/laser-bike-lane-lights


-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

I didn't realize those things removed all motor vehicle traffic from the
roads. Wow, cool!

Those must be what they used just before they shoot all the TV
commercials for new cars. You know, the ones that show traffic absent
except for the car being advertised.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Duane]

Hey I was riding in Ontario this morning. Around East Hawkesbury. You
have some potholes this year. Must be the tough winter. We usually ride
to Ontario to get better roads.

--
duane

[Duane]

Dan O <danov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:23:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/17/2014 12:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
>>> And for Frank, a lot of the young and fit know exactly what has been taught
> them in spin class.
>>>
>
>> That's what I figured. But careful, Jay, or Dan will be in your
>> (virtual) face for demeaning the young and fit.
>
> Heh.
>
>> > I come across many riders with big engines who are squirrels
> on bikes. Lately, I've been running into the hyper vigilant who incessantly
> point things out on the road -- the hand gestures are so frequent that it
> looks like a dance routine from Saturday Night Fever. It looks like they

Sounds like Quebec roads.

> went to some rider-training class, and that was the only message that stuck
> -- point things out!
>>>

They must be used to riding in groups. In that case not pointing out the
crap to the guy behind you is a bad thing since they can't see it if
they're on your wheel.

>
>> Heh. I went on a club ride this morning - retirement is nice! - and
>> noticed that nobody was pointing out potholes. That's because after
>> this winter, there are so many potholes that pointing them would require
>> using both hands simultaneously. That might make steering through them
>> even more difficult than usual.
>
> "Potholes occur when snow and ice melt as part of... seasonal
> freeze-thaw cycles. The resulting water then seeps beneath the
> pavement through cracks... "
>
> "... _caused by the wear and tear of traffic_."
>
> "As the temperatures cool to freezing at night, the water becomes
> ice and expands below the pavement, forcing the pavement to rise.
> As... "
>
> "... _the weight of traffic continues to pound_... "
>
> "... on this raised section - and the temperatures once again rise
> above freezing - a shallow divot occurs under the surface and the
> pavement breaks, forming a pothole."
>
> Still prefer sharing roads with motor traffic?

Frank thinks roads are usually worse on the right where there are less
trucks driving. I once showed him a road here where the shoulders were
smooth but the lanes were crap. He thought that unusual. Maybe they have
different asphalt in Ohio. That's probably true unless they buy it from
our mob guys. Who knows.

--
duane

[John B.]

Sort of a "bring your own" bicycle road?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 22:35:30 +0000 (UTC), Duane <sp...@flarn.com>
wrote:

That is fairly common in areas where there is a lot of trucks. One of
our local roads has the outer lane - where most of the trucks drive -
looking like it was trampled by elephants while the wide shoulder and
the inner lane are nearly perfect.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Well, sorta.

With headphones cranked up and attention concentrated on a
text display, traffic disappears, in a relative sense, for
that rider.

That technique even works for trains!

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-03-07/news/chi-metra-reports-pedestrian-incident-on-upnw-line-20140307_1_metra-train-union-pacific-northwest-taft-students

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Dan O]

On Saturday, April 19, 2014 2:45:49 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/19/2014 4:48 PM, Dan O wrote:

<snip>

> > Still prefer sharing roads with motor traffic?
>
> No, you've convinced me. We should all stop riding our bikes until
> there are special bike-only roads everywhere we want to go.

https://www.google.com/search?q=splitting%20psych

> I hope you get that completed really soon.

No you don't.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

outside of Oregon, very few ( an Bodfish - patchy ) roads are potholed. Rarely do we swerve avoiding a pothole. Let me say there are as many potholes in my journey as mosquitos....11....

bring your Healy !

[AMuzi]

On 4/20/2014 5:16 PM, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> outside of Oregon, very few ( an Bodfish - patchy ) roads are potholed. Rarely do we swerve avoiding a pothole. Let me say there are as many potholes in my journey as mosquitos....11....
>
> bring your Healy !

Gene, put the bong down and click:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/03/13/city-to-step-up-street-resurfacing-this-year-to-reduce-potholes/

http://www.startribune.com/local/blogs/253396361.html

https://www.toledoblade.com/business/2014/02/22/Drivers-mull-cost-of-potholes.html


Milwaukee potholes even have a fan page:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Potholes-of-Milwaukee/206674882700802

[David Scheidt]

Duane <sp...@flarn.com> wrote:

Note that the damage a vehicle does, due to weight, goes up with
fourth power or so with axle loading[4]. A 16,000 (the maximum *legal*
loading for trucks in the US, generally speaking) pound axle does a
whole hell of a lot more damage to pavement than a 3000 pound car
axle, which does a whole hell a lot more than a 150 pound bike axle.

[4] it's complicated, but that's the typical rule of thumb for
flexible pavements, with loads suitable for the pavement. Exceeding
the capacity of the pavement can kill it in a handful cycles or even just a
single trip. Ablation of the wearing layer (the top couple of inches
of pavement, what's normally replaced when 'repaving') is a function
of speed and axle loading, but loading is the dominate term.


:Frank thinks roads are usually worse on the right where there are less

:trucks driving. I once showed him a road here where the shoulders were

He's nuts. one of the the failures of asphaltic pavements is humping,
where heavy loads deform the asphalt plasticly. Where you have
continual loads, like on a highway, you get grooves. It's a real problem
for city buses, as well, because at stops they tend to follow the same
route. Lots of places put in concrete pads at busy bus stops, for
just this reason.

Oh, humps and grooves make the pavement less smooth, so they increase
the damage that snowplowing does, and increast the damage that water
for snow and ice melt can do.


--
sig 6

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

On Monday, April 21, 2014 9:23:34 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/20/2014 5:16 PM, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
>
> > outside of Oregon, very few ( an Bodfish - patchy ) roads are potholed. Rarely do we swerve avoiding a pothole. Let me say there are as many potholes in my journey as mosquitos....11....
>
> >
>
> > bring your Healy !

UUUUUU_UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU_UUUUUUU-~~~~~]


http://www.vannattabros.com/truck59.html


WA and Cal ? triax have a wheeled damper boom off the stern - connection so far unseen, haven't scoped one at rest - limiting weight bounce and rock motion. A third wheel apparently doesn't limit bounce.

lotta dig n fill goes on here taking limestone from holes inland to near Gulf property...the triax traffic ripples plastic pavement but generally the pave recovers

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

U_____________________o


the GooBrain slipped this in !


http://blog.equipmentengine.com/2011/super-dump-truck/


the design shown may also be a tubular boom attached to a simple 2 wheel carriage.

frost depth...low or no frost depth doesn't expand water gone below the cracked surface seal thus lifting the cracked areas. Once cracked patches are lifted then the total force applied to road surface is no longer spread over the total adjacent road surface but impacted...like a hammer...along the open edges and downward.

Once the surface patch disintegrates, hammering continues down thru the loose subsurface expanding the hole outwards ...

the process is heard as an excuse to NOT patch the hole until the entire area is $hot as patching the hole only leads to more impaction thus larger hole.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/21/2014 11:52 PM, David Scheidt wrote:

> Duane <sp...@flarn.com> wrote:
>
> :Frank thinks roads are usually worse on the right where there are less
> :trucks driving. I once showed him a road here where the shoulders were
>
> He's nuts.

I suggest engaging great skepticism when reading Duane's claims about
what I've said. Then ask for my original statement in context.

Although I'm a Mechanical Engineer, not a Civil Engineer, I'm well aware
of that fourth power rule for pavement damage. I can't imagine what
Duane is, um, imagining, or mis-remembering.

BTW, perhaps four or five years ago, _Bicycling_ magazine had a very
good article on asphalt pavement, going pretty deeply into the mechanics
of its degradation and failure. It didn't get into mathematics, but it
was an unusually informative article for that magazine.

Unfortunately, I didn't keep a copy; I passed it on to the Civil
Engineering professors where I was teaching at the time.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[David Scheidt]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

:On 4/21/2014 11:52 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
:> Duane <sp...@flarn.com> wrote:
:>
:> :Frank thinks roads are usually worse on the right where there are less
:> :trucks driving. I once showed him a road here where the shoulders were
:>
:> He's nuts.

:I suggest engaging great skepticism when reading Duane's claims about
:what I've said. Then ask for my original statement in context.

:Although I'm a Mechanical Engineer, not a Civil Engineer, I'm well aware
:of that fourth power rule for pavement damage. I can't imagine what
:Duane is, um, imagining, or mis-remembering.

:BTW, perhaps four or five years ago, _Bicycling_ magazine had a very
:good article on asphalt pavement, going pretty deeply into the mechanics
:of its degradation and failure. It didn't get into mathematics, but it
:was an unusually informative article for that magazine.

this?
http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/bikes-and-gear-features/everyday-miracle?page=0,0

For Bicycling, it's amazing. For actual information, it's pretty
content free.


--
sig 124

[Dan O]

On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 7:33:19 PM UTC-7, David Scheidt wrote:
> Frank Krygowski wrote:

<snip>

> :BTW, perhaps four or five years ago, _Bicycling_ magazine had a very
> :good article on asphalt pavement, going pretty deeply into the mechanics
> :of its degradation and failure. It didn't get into mathematics, but it
> :was an unusually informative article for that magazine.
>
> this?
>
> http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/bikes-and-gear-features/everyday-miracle?page=0,0
>
> For Bicycling, it's amazing. For actual information, it's pretty
> content free.

The authoritative Mr. Pothole:

http://www.mrpothole.com/learning/index.html

[John B.]

A lot of hogwash too. The claim that roads were paved because of
bicycles is a bit much as apparently the first paved road on the
planet is in Egypt. Built 4.600 years ago. Long before a bicycle was
even a gleam in anyone's eye, Egyptian quarrymen were hauling large
slabs of stone over a paved road.

In the U.S. the earliest paved road seems to date back to 1625. It
was a colonial city street in Pemaquid, Maine.

The first asphalt roads in the US were in Battery Park, 5th Avenue in
NYC in 1872 and on Pennsylvania Ave, Wash. D.C., in 1877.


--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Better content than most:

http://www.mrpothole.com/learning/types_of_repair/index.html

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


?

http://search.bicycling.com/vignette/bic/search.jsp?num=10&filter=0&site=bic_prod&requiredfields=bic_type:1&q=ASPHALT