Look pedals falling apart

[Duane]

A couple of weeks ago, I went to a ride in New York where I had to carry
the bike on my roof rack. I got it set up and went to clip in but my
right pedal was missing. Luckily, I found it on the ground. It came
apart where the pedal attaches to the spindle. Look Keo 2. I had never
seen this. Typically I think pedals tighten with use. Anyway, I put
some locktite on it and didn't think about it.

Yesterday during a ride it happened to the guy in front of me. Same
thing. Came loose at the spindle. His pedals were Keo Classics. I was
wondering if anyone else has noticed this. Seems like an odd failure.

[John B.]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 07:58:01 -0400, Duane <duane....@group-upc.com>
wrote:

Are you saying that the pedal "body", for want of a better word, came
off the pedal spindle but the spindle itself was still in the crank
arm? Or that the whole pedal, spindle and all, came off?

I've known both to happen, in fact losing the pedal body and being
left with only the spindle sticking out is not that uncommon on
department store bikes, the really low end ones. I saw some on sale
the other day, 26" Ladies Model, single speed, with rear carrier and
front basket... and a kick stand, for US$ 35.00. Take two and you get
a 10% discount, the sign said :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Duane]

Yeah, the spindle was still in the crank arm. These aren't department
store bikes. And Look KEO and KEO 2 are pretty high end pedals. I'm
not looking for comparisons to really low end bikes. I'm wondering if
anyone has seen this with this caliber pedal.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I only use the older style ARC/Delta pedals and haven't seen anything like that. But the Keo pedals look like poorly crafted junk to me when I looked at them in Performance.

[jbeattie]

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 7:01:13 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:

Mine did that -- a Keo, which I took back and got a warranty replacement. One fell apart on a ride soon after I bought the pair. The pedal body was attached to my foot, and the spindle was attached to the crank. I just jammed the pedal back on the spindle, and it worked for a while then came apart again. Rinse lather repeat all the way home from out in the Chehalem hills. https://www.adelsheim.com/assets/client/Image/about-us/feature-chehalem.jpg . The nice people at Biketires Direct (sister store to Western Bikeworks) just handed me a new pair. The replacements have been trouble free.

The sense I get is that this a known failure mode, and you should get an easy warranty replacement -- assuming you didn't get them off eBay.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Duane]

For me, it probably fell off when I was taking the bike off the roof
rack. For the guy yesterday it was just as you described. But nothing
was broken in either case. In both cases we just reinstalled it and it
held for the ride. The threads were fine and I just tightened it. No
jamming necessary.

When I got home I took it apart to put loctite on it and it was tight.
I needed a wrench to get it off. Weird.

But thanks, that's what I was wondering. Whether it's a known failure
mode as I hadn't seen this before.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The Keo doesn't seem to have any sort of real attachment of the axle to the pedal. I wondered if it wouldn't do that and lo and behold.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

There seems to be two different types of connections of the Keo axle. The one you are talking about suggests that it was the left pedal that fell off. I think it is a later design that doesn't have this inside attachment but a much smaller outside bolt. Though perhaps I'm getting this backwards.

[James]

I've been using Look Keo pedals for probably 10 years, give or take. I
have the version with a stainless steel plate on the pedal. Keo 2 Max I
think.

I've never had the pedal body unscrew itself from the axle. I have
taken them apart a couple of times to check for moisture and grease
consistency - but there has never been any water in there and the grease
is always fine.

Maybe it happened as a result of spinning in the breeze on top of the
car? That's not how I transport my bicycle.

If that's the case I'd say it's poor design, but you could easily
overcome it with a little tape or a cable tie while the bike is in
transit on the roof of a car.

--
JS

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Isn't the "Max" the one with the small bolt on the outside of the pedal? I had a couple of the original Shimano Delta Cleat pedals unscrew like Duane was talking about but the Look Delta pedals never did that. Perhaps they have reverse threaded left pedal lock.

[James]

On 01/08/17 08:38, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Isn't the "Max" the one with the small bolt on the outside of the
> pedal? I had a couple of the original Shimano Delta Cleat pedals
> unscrew like Duane was talking about but the Look Delta pedals never
> did that. Perhaps they have reverse threaded left pedal lock.
>

No Tom. There is no small bolt on the outside of the pedal.

http://www.wiggle.com.au/look-keo-2-max-pedals/

--
JS

[James]

Unless you meant for the spring loaded clip pivot? There is that, but
that has nothing to do with holding the pedal body on to the axle.

--
JS

[John B.]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 10:01:10 -0400, Duane <duane....@group-upc.com>
wrote:

The first and last Look pedals I had was years ago now but looking at
the parts on the web it appears that the pedal body screws onto the
pedal axle, which is made in left and right hand threads to screw into
the crank arms.

Are the threads where the pedal body screws onto the pedal axle both L
& R threads also? But regardless your fix of a dose of loctite is
probably the best solution.

I did find a youtube showing how to grease the look pedals but it
didn't seem to make note of whether the pedal axle to body threads
were right or left hand threads although they did mention that one had
to be careful when assembling the pedal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnVBoFjD-Fk
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Duane]

The pedal body screws onto the spindle. The whole assembly screws into
the crank. In my case the pedal came loose from the spindle but the
spindle was still attached to the crank.

https://www.lookcycle.com/en/pedale/new-keo-2-max-carbon/

You can see from the picture the threads that attach to the crank. The nut
just next to the Look lettering attaches the pedal body to the spindle.
This is what came loose.

--
duane

[John B.]

I had wondered whether the right and left pedal bodies had right and
left threads where they screw onto the pedal axle. I know that the
axle has R & L threads where they screw into the crank arms but
couldn't find anything about the body and axle join.

We drove back from Korat, a city in central Thailand last Saturday and
when we stopped for lunch we parked next to a car with two bikes on
the top. I noticed that both bikes had the handle bars, the saddles,
and the pedals all wrapped with what looked like scrap cloth which was
tied on with twine.

Maybe pedals do come off when exposed to the wind as someone suggested

[Duane]

They do.

> We drove back from Korat, a city in central Thailand last Saturday and
> when we stopped for lunch we parked next to a car with two bikes on
> the top. I noticed that both bikes had the handle bars, the saddles,
> and the pedals all wrapped with what looked like scrap cloth which was
> tied on with twine.
>

Acid rain?

> Maybe pedals do come off when exposed to the wind as someone suggested
> :-)
>

I thought that was a possibility until it happened to the guy in front
of me Sunday. He doesn't have a roof rack and anyway we were 40k into
the ride.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

JS - here is what I'm talking about:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOOK-KEO-QUARTZ-PEDAL-CROMOLY-AXLE-REPLACEMENT-LEFT-SIDE-/162598557028?epid=2118628436&hash=item25dba11564:g:x7kAAOSwfpVZIg3H

(the left pedal is the one that will work loose) vs:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Look-Keo-2-Max-Blade-Left-Axle-Includes-Pedal-End-Cap-11212-/311829314328?epid=518114024&hash=item489a79bb18:g:dQkAAOSwuLZY0V~H

As you can see the Max Blade set-up holds the axle in with a small outside bolt.

The pedal is inserted into the crank and you tighten it in with a long Allen if memory serves.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Yes John, but the both of the screws that bolt the pedal to the axle are normal threads so the left pedal insufficiently tightened works loose.

[James]

On 01/08/17 22:01, Duane wrote:
> On 01/08/2017 7:42 AM, John B. wrote:

>>
>> I had wondered whether the right and left pedal bodies had right and
>> left threads where they screw onto the pedal axle. I know that the
>> axle has R & L threads where they screw into the crank arms but
>> couldn't find anything about the body and axle join.
>>
>
> They do.

I couldn't remember.

I wonder then whether they spin backwards in the air flow on a roof rack?

>
>> We drove back from Korat, a city in central Thailand last Saturday and
>> when we stopped for lunch we parked next to a car with two bikes on
>> the top. I noticed that both bikes had the handle bars, the saddles,
>> and the pedals all wrapped with what looked like scrap cloth which was
>> tied on with twine.
>>
>
> Acid rain?
>
>> Maybe pedals do come off when exposed to the wind as someone suggested
>> :-)
>>
>
> I thought that was a possibility until it happened to the guy in front
> of me Sunday. He doesn't have a roof rack and anyway we were 40k into
> the ride.
>

Coincidence?

The only time I've transported my bike outside a car is on a tow bar
mounted bike rack. There's not much direct air flow there to get the
pedals spinning.

--
JS

[James]

There is no bolt like that on my Look Keo 2 Max pedals. The "Blade"
must be something different.

--
JS.

[John B.]

Interesting. It would seem that loctite is the solution.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Duane]

And these were right pedals in both cases.

--
duane

[Duane]

James <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 01/08/17 22:01, Duane wrote:
>> On 01/08/2017 7:42 AM, John B. wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I had wondered whether the right and left pedal bodies had right and
>>> left threads where they screw onto the pedal axle. I know that the
>>> axle has R & L threads where they screw into the crank arms but
>>> couldn't find anything about the body and axle join.
>>>
>>
>> They do.
>
> I couldn't remember.
>
> I wonder then whether they spin backwards in the air flow on a roof rack?
>

I guess that's what happened in my case. But this isn't the first bike or
even the first pedals on this bike that I've carried on my roof.

I found it odd that two bikes in such a short time had this happen when I
had never seen it before.

Anyway, loctite should take care of it.

>>
>>> We drove back from Korat, a city in central Thailand last Saturday and
>>> when we stopped for lunch we parked next to a car with two bikes on
>>> the top. I noticed that both bikes had the handle bars, the saddles,
>>> and the pedals all wrapped with what looked like scrap cloth which was
>>> tied on with twine.
>>>
>>
>> Acid rain?
>>
>>> Maybe pedals do come off when exposed to the wind as someone suggested
>>> :-)
>>>
>>
>> I thought that was a possibility until it happened to the guy in front
>> of me Sunday. He doesn't have a roof rack and anyway we were 40k into
>> the ride.
>>
>
> Coincidence?
>
> The only time I've transported my bike outside a car is on a tow bar
> mounted bike rack. There's not much direct air flow there to get the
> pedals spinning.
>



--

duane

[cycl...@gmail.com]

When you ride the pedals, it causes a contra-rotation force on the locking bolt. I had this unscrewing problem on other pedals if you didn't tighten the locknut enough.This only occurs on the left side if memory serves. The opposite side can tighten so much that you can't remove the damn thing.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOOK-KEO-QUARTZ-PEDAL-CROMOLY-AXLE-REPLACEMENT-LEFT-SIDE-/162598557028?epid=2118628436&hash=item25dba11564:g:x7kAAOSwfpVZIg3H

This was the original axle shape. Notice that the replacement is on the left side.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Look-Keo-2-Max-Blade-Left-Axle-Includes-Pedal-End-Cap-11212-/311829314328?epid=518114024&hash=item489a79bb18:g:dQkAAOSwuLZY0V~H

If you look at this you can see that the lock bolt has been moved to the outside and a plastic end cap is installed over it.

[AMuzi]

The bearing retaining ring on a Look Keo (or similar design)
pedal is on the 'other' side of the body so one might expect
the same effect on the inside right as the outside left.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Duane]

Like I said, this was the right pedal in both cases. But they are
reverse threaded looking at it from the side so I would assume also that
pedaling them would make them tighter.

[AMuzi]

another great hypothesis ruined by actual reality

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Not at all Andrew - the force is on the capital bearing and not the outside bushing. These pedals are throw-aways in the first place as far as I can make out from their construction.

The pedals I prefer are the CX-6 Delta pedals but they are throw-aways as well and are no longer made.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Remember that when you put pressure on the pedal the ball bearing reverses the direction of the forces so perhaps I'm all screwed up since the anti-seizure medicine makes it difficult to visualize things.

[James]

After investigation, it is as I said. The "Blade" is a different
product. It uses a glass fibre flat spring instead of a steel coil
spring.

There is no lock bolt on the Look Keo 2 Max pedals.

--
JS

[jbeattie]

You're right. Compare:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQsRGr6R6bo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgaty1tpfGg

The Blades use a retaining bolt ala pedals of yore while the Max uses the threaded collar on the spindle.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Duane]

Yep.

--
duane

[James]

On 03/08/17 10:51, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 3:12:07 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
>> On 02/08/17 23:58, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2017 at 6:57:19 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> There is no bolt like that on my Look Keo 2 Max pedals. The
>>>> "Blade" must be something different.
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOOK-KEO-QUARTZ-PEDAL-CROMOLY-AXLE-REPLACEMENT-LEFT-SIDE-/162598557028?epid=2118628436&hash=item25dba11564:g:x7kAAOSwfpVZIg3H
>>>
>>>
>>>
This was the original axle shape. Notice that the replacement is on
>>> the left side.
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Look-Keo-2-Max-Blade-Left-Axle-Includes-Pedal-End-Cap-11212-/311829314328?epid=518114024&hash=item489a79bb18:g:dQkAAOSwuLZY0V~H
>>>
>>>
>>>
If you look at this you can see that the lock bolt has been moved to
>>> the outside and a plastic end cap is installed over it.
>>>
>>
>> After investigation, it is as I said. The "Blade" is a different
>> product. It uses a glass fibre flat spring instead of a steel coil
>> spring.
>>
>> There is no lock bolt on the Look Keo 2 Max pedals.
>>
>

> You're right. Compare:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQsRGr6R6bo
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgaty1tpfGg
>
> The Blades use a retaining bolt ala pedals of yore while the Max uses
> the threaded collar on the spindle.
>

Further to this, I just checked my Look Keo 2 Max "Carbon" pedals, and
the _RHS_ pedal threaded collar on the spindle has a *left hand* thread,
where as the _LHS_ pedal threaded collar has a *right hand* thread.

The opposite "handedness" to the axle/crank threads.

One would expect that the Frogs would understand the process by which
pedals don't normally loosen from cranks by now, and have chosen the
thread direction of the threaded collar to also not loosen under
_normal_ riding conditions.

I note that if the pedal bearing is near seized, the action of pedalling
can override the normal precession force, and in which case the pedal
will unwind from the crank.

I also took a moment to check out my Shimano double sided SPD pedals on
the MTB. PD-M540. The construction of the bearing retaining assembly
looks remarkably similar. A threaded collar on the spindle.

In this video, the author also notes that the LHS pedal collar is RH
threaded and vice versa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utLU4kAHk_Q

--
JS

[AMuzi]

Reverse body thread on the chain side is in keeping with
reverse spindle threads on the off side.

[ab.ch...@rogers.com]

I knew KEO as the crappiest beer in Cyprus. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KEO_(beer)
--
Andrew Chaplin