doubling up single Torpedo wire wheels

[Emanuel Berg]

You know the fittings attached to the frame,
close to the crank, which has a small plastic
wheel to carry the gear wire on Torpedos?

On the 3-speed ones, there is only one such
wheel, but on the 5-speeds, there are two.

For some reason I always have a bucket of
one-wheelers, but almost no doubles!

So I thought, can any harm come from simply
using two one-wheelers, in opposite directions,
to achieve virtually the same?

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 51 Blogomatic articles -

[John B.]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 03:25:19 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>You know the fittings attached to the frame,
>close to the crank, which has a small plastic
>wheel to carry the gear wire on Torpedos?
>
>On the 3-speed ones, there is only one such
>wheel, but on the 5-speeds, there are two.
>
>For some reason I always have a bucket of
>one-wheelers, but almost no doubles!
>
>So I thought, can any harm come from simply
>using two one-wheelers, in opposite directions,
>to achieve virtually the same?

I believe there is a failure in translation here :-)

Maybe a photo?
--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> I believe there is a failure in translation
> here :-)
>
> Maybe a photo?

It is unbelievable difficult to find one if you
don't know the name of the detail!

Many people are meticulous when proudly
photographing their picked-apart hubs but for
whatever reason they don't include the
remaining three details which are:

1. The controller (on the handle bar);

2. The thing that holds the cables (on the
frame close to the fork) - for a three speed
bike, there is only one cable; and

3. This thing I'm talking about which is on the
frame near the crank, which has either one
or two wheels depending on three/five gears!

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic

- so far: 52 Blogomatic articles -

[John B.]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 07:39:16 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> I believe there is a failure in translation
>> here :-)
>>
>> Maybe a photo?
>
>It is unbelievable difficult to find one if you
>don't know the name of the detail!

Have a look at http://tinyurl.com/jaexpq5
or maybe
http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/CABLE-STOPS-c-1053/
or
http://www.jensonusa.com/Cable-Guides?by=Category

I think that you are talking, perhaps, about a "Cable Stop" or a
"Cable Guide".

>Many people are meticulous when proudly
>photographing their picked-apart hubs but for
>whatever reason they don't include the
>remaining three details which are:
>
>1. The controller (on the handle bar);
>
>2. The thing that holds the cables (on the
> frame close to the fork) - for a three speed
> bike, there is only one cable; and
>
>3. This thing I'm talking about which is on the
> frame near the crank, which has either one
> or two wheels depending on three/five gears!
--

cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> I think that you are talking, perhaps, about
> a "Cable Stop" or a "Cable Guide".

Indeed, here is a photo:

http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos/wheel-cable-guide.jpg

[John B.]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 09:49:31 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> I think that you are talking, perhaps, about
>> a "Cable Stop" or a "Cable Guide".
>
>Indeed, here is a photo:
>
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos/wheel-cable-guide.jpg

For some reason that jpg doesn't show up. I went to your
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos directory and all the photos can
be displayed except the wheel-cable-guide.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> For some reason that jpg doesn't show up.
> I went to your
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos
> directory and all the photos can be displayed
> except the wheel-cable-guide.

Aha, thank you. I got some stub or layer
in-between.

Now it works:

[AMuzi]

On 6/17/2016 8:25 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> You know the fittings attached to the frame,
> close to the crank, which has a small plastic
> wheel to carry the gear wire on Torpedos?
>
> On the 3-speed ones, there is only one such
> wheel, but on the 5-speeds, there are two.
>
> For some reason I always have a bucket of
> one-wheelers, but almost no doubles!
>
> So I thought, can any harm come from simply
> using two one-wheelers, in opposite directions,
> to achieve virtually the same?
>

Yes.
On new Raleigh five speed with SA gearboxes, we removed the
full casing setup and sold the bikes new with two pulleys,
open wire system.

Or more elegantly a nylon plate under the BB.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[John B.]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 11:05:54 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> For some reason that jpg doesn't show up.
>> I went to your
>> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos
>> directory and all the photos can be displayed
>> except the wheel-cable-guide.
>
>Aha, thank you. I got some stub or layer
>in-between.
>
>Now it works:
>
> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos/wheel-cable-guide.jpg
>

O.K. found it. I suspect that the reason that the small wheels are a
bit rare is that they are likely "over kill" as a simple guide seems
to work perfectly well.
(and might be cheaper too :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> O.K. found it. I suspect that the reason that
> the small wheels are a bit rare is that they
> are likely "over kill" as a simple guide
> seems to work perfectly well. (and might be
> cheaper too :-)

Well, they are on all the Torpedo 3 and 5
speeds which are extreamly common (we typically
don't have the British brand at all) - also,
Torpedo was officially or unofficially (?)
copied or closed-to copied in Soviet-block
countries, so there are many "pulleys" -
I think it might be just random I have the
"single wheels" but not the doubles... Anyway
I suspect doubling them up will work just fine
because the wires are calibrated individually
at the hub!

[John B.]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 00:54:19 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> O.K. found it. I suspect that the reason that
>> the small wheels are a bit rare is that they
>> are likely "over kill" as a simple guide
>> seems to work perfectly well. (and might be
>> cheaper too :-)
>
>Well, they are on all the Torpedo 3 and 5
>speeds which are extreamly common (we typically
>don't have the British brand at all) - also,
>Torpedo was officially or unofficially (?)
>copied or closed-to copied in Soviet-block
>countries, so there are many "pulleys" -
>I think it might be just random I have the
>"single wheels" but not the doubles... Anyway
>I suspect doubling them up will work just fine
>because the wires are calibrated individually
>at the hub!

I tried to find some photos of a "Torpedo 5", but none of them were
very clear although they seemed to show the "wheels", and the cable,
above the top of the chain, which I assume has something to do with
where the cable attaches to a gear change mechanism.

But in any event I can't see any reason that they wouldn't work, but
if they didn't it should be pretty easy to correct any problems..
--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> I tried to find some photos of a "Torpedo 5",

Try: Torpedo Pentasport

> but none of them were very clear although
> they seemed to show the "wheels"

Pulleys! :)

[John B.]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 05:29:42 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> I tried to find some photos of a "Torpedo 5",
>
>Try: Torpedo Pentasport

I tried. Many photos of the entire bike and the rear hub but no
pulley.

>> but none of them were very clear although
>> they seemed to show the "wheels"
>
>Pulleys! :)

O.K. pulleys.... I though that I remembered you saying "wheel" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> I tried. Many photos of the entire bike and
> the rear hub but no pulley.

OK, I get a photo!

But it looks very much like the single wheel
version only it has one on each side!
The wheels are identical what I can see and you
can pick them apart and move them between the
versions as they sometimes break (being
plastic).

>>> but none of them were very clear although
>>> they seemed to show the "wheels"
>>
>>Pulleys! :)
>
> O.K. pulleys.... I though that I remembered
> you saying "wheel" :-)

It was AMuzi who just know tought me better :)

[Frank Krygowski]

A couple years ago I converted an old custom frame to a 3-speed, using a
Sturmey-Archer hub I had on hand. At first, I used a plastic pulley
just like that, but eventually abandoned it. Due to the long lug
points, the pulley had some misalignment, and the cable would derail and
eat away at the pulley. I've used the brazed on guides at the bottom
bracket ever since, with no serious problems.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

I got that. English is not Mr Ber's first language but
"Bicycle Rider English" is one of my acquired patoises.

c.f. 'flippers', 'squeezers', 'rat traps', each of which may
describe several different objects depending on context. You
may be familiar with the interchangeable terms, 'tire',
'rim' and 'wheel', as in "I have a flat wheel." or "My tire
is bent."

[Frank Krygowski]

Then there's "tar" vs. "tire" in the southern U.S.

That caused me grief on one occasion. I'd ridden past some "Road
Closed" signs on a long hot rural ride home from work, because any way
around would have added tens of miles, and bikes can almost always get
through.

Anyway, some guy in a passing work truck yelled some sort of warning
about my "tar" or some other "tar." My tires looked fine, so I rolled on
- and got sprayed with a fine mist of genuine TAR from a truck preparing
for road paving.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ian Field]

"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:nk6cj1$csq$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 6/18/2016 6:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 11:05:54 +0200, Emanuel Berg
>> <embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:
>>>
>>> Now it works:
>>>
>>> http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/photos/wheel-cable-guide.jpg
>>>
>> O.K. found it. I suspect that the reason that the small wheels are a
>> bit rare is that they are likely "over kill" as a simple guide seems
>> to work perfectly well.
>> (and might be cheaper too :-)
>
> A couple years ago I converted an old custom frame to a 3-speed, using a
> Sturmey-Archer hub I had on hand. At first, I used a plastic pulley just
> like that, but eventually abandoned it.

The steel pulleys tend to rust and seize - the plastic pulleys, only the pin
rusts and that wears the pulley.

So the plastic pulleys get wobbly - but they keep working longer.

[AMuzi]

A modern nylon plate under the BB works very well. I added
one in 1985, no trouble since.

[John B.]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:32:37 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 6/19/2016 3:29 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 05:29:42 +0200, Emanuel Berg
>> <embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:
>>
>>> John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>>>
>>>> I tried to find some photos of a "Torpedo 5",
>>>
>>> Try: Torpedo Pentasport
>>
>> I tried. Many photos of the entire bike and the rear hub but no
>> pulley.
>>
>>>> but none of them were very clear although
>>>> they seemed to show the "wheels"
>>>
>>> Pulleys! :)
>>
>> O.K. pulleys.... I though that I remembered you saying "wheel" :-)
>>
>
>I got that. English is not Mr Ber's first language but
>"Bicycle Rider English" is one of my acquired patoises.

No, it is apparently not, but never the less he does better at it than
some "Americans".

>c.f. 'flippers', 'squeezers', 'rat traps', each of which may
>describe several different objects depending on context. You
>may be familiar with the interchangeable terms, 'tire',
>'rim' and 'wheel', as in "I have a flat wheel." or "My tire
>is bent."

I'm reminded of the fellow that came in the shop one day wanting to
know if we had a "fat thread" bolt.

--
cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> A modern nylon plate under the BB works very
> well. I added one in 1985, no trouble since.

How does that work? Like two small tunnels?
They don't get jammed with dirt from being so
low, under the bike? And how do you attach
the plate?

As for rust, obviously that isn't a problem
with the small Torpedo pulley wheels which are
of some white plastic (?) - however parts of
the flanges to make the chute are sometimes
missing (broke).

Perhaps this happens all the more here because
of the winters, but plastic parts are almost
always defect in some way. Only sticky tape on
bikes are much worse still...

An example (of plastic) speaking of Torpedo is
the three speed controller vs. actually both
versions of the five speed controller.
The three speed one is much less plastic and is
almost always just open, clean, oil up and it
works instantly. On the other controllers,
which are much more plastic (especially the one
with pozidriv screws) today I disassembled two,
to get one, as on one, there was a crack in the
back case part, and on the other, a crack in
the arm!

But apart from being in plastic, I actually
like the "pozidriv screws" controller - very
easy and fast to operate...

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> No, it is apparently not, but never the less
> he does better at it than some "Americans".

I always thought "act like a professional, you
become a professional" (professional = person
with high skills) so I encourage everyone to
correct at least my bike English whenever
called for!

[John B.]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 03:01:13 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>
>> A modern nylon plate under the BB works very
>> well. I added one in 1985, no trouble since.
>
>How does that work? Like two small tunnels?
>They don't get jammed with dirt from being so
>low, under the bike? And how do you attach
>the plate?

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_guide

The metal guides above the bottom bracket are the older design and the
plastic guides on the bottom of the BB are the more recent.

>As for rust, obviously that isn't a problem
>with the small Torpedo pulley wheels which are
>of some white plastic (?) - however parts of
>the flanges to make the chute are sometimes
>missing (broke).

I don't live in the land of the midnight sun, but using the better
quality brake or shift cables and a bit of grease on the guide I've
had no rust problems.

>Perhaps this happens all the more here because
>of the winters, but plastic parts are almost
>always defect in some way. Only sticky tape on
>bikes are much worse still...
>
>An example (of plastic) speaking of Torpedo is
>the three speed controller vs. actually both
>versions of the five speed controller.
>The three speed one is much less plastic and is
>almost always just open, clean, oil up and it
>works instantly. On the other controllers,
>which are much more plastic (especially the one
>with pozidriv screws) today I disassembled two,
>to get one, as on one, there was a crack in the
>back case part, and on the other, a crack in
>the arm!
>
>But apart from being in plastic, I actually
>like the "pozidriv screws" controller - very
>easy and fast to operate...
--

cheers,

John B.

[Emanuel Berg]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> The metal guides above the bottom bracket are
> the older design and the plastic guides on
> the bottom of the BB are the more recent.

Aha, those! - but I have not seen those being
manually/mechanically attached to the frame,
but that's something I'd like to do, for sure!

[John B.]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 06:54:44 +0200, Emanuel Berg
<embe...@student.uu.se> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
>> The metal guides above the bottom bracket are
>> the older design and the plastic guides on
>> the bottom of the BB are the more recent.
>
>Aha, those! - but I have not seen those being
>manually/mechanically attached to the frame,
>but that's something I'd like to do, for sure!

The plastic guides usually are held on with a single bolt. The metal
guides are usually brazed on although there a time when they too were
clamped on. See http://tinyurl.com/jz3tgkq
--
cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/nylonplt.jpg

Somewhere between cheap and free at any LBS.

[Ian Field]

"Emanuel Berg" <embe...@student.uu.se> wrote in message
news:86inx4y...@student.uu.se...

> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>
>> A modern nylon plate under the BB works very
>> well. I added one in 1985, no trouble since.
>
> How does that work? Like two small tunnels?
> They don't get jammed with dirt from being so
> low, under the bike? And how do you attach
> the plate?

AFAICR: the ones fitted during manufacture have a nut welded on the inside
of the BB tube section - presumably you could retro-fit with a self tapping
screw.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Sunday, June 19, 2016 at 9:06:14 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>
> > No, it is apparently not, but never the less
> > he does better at it than some "Americans".
>
> I always thought "act like a professional, you
> become a professional" (professional = person
> with high skills) so I encourage everyone to
> correct at least my bike English whenever
> called for!

Well, since you asked: In the U.S. at least, "wire wheel" usually means
this to most shop workers:
http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/484035/Blog_Images/Wire_Wheel_Brushes.jpg

Unless you're talking to certain car enthusiasts, who would think you meant this: https://classicmotorsports.com/media/img/articles/Wire-Wheel-09.jpg

- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

I've never seen that. Possible I suppose.

The original Vitus design popped into a large BB hole with a
molded plastic peg on the frame side. There were others
after with a locating peg (the gear wire(s) hold it against
the frame). Trek's first design had two 3mm screws threaded
into the BB shell, like a mini belt-with-suspenders. Modern
ones thread a 5mm screw into the BB shell, no nut.

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> The original Vitus design popped into a large
> BB hole with a molded plastic peg on the
> frame side. There were others after with
> a locating peg (the gear wire(s) hold it
> against the frame). Trek's first design had
> two 3mm screws threaded into the BB shell,
> like a mini belt-with-suspenders. Modern ones
> thread a 5mm screw into the BB shell, no nut.

Perhaps you can make such a hole in the frame,
if there isn't one?

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic

- so far: 55 Blogomatic articles -

[AMuzi]

On 6/20/2016 4:41 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>
>> The original Vitus design popped into a large
>> BB hole with a molded plastic peg on the
>> frame side. There were others after with
>> a locating peg (the gear wire(s) hold it
>> against the frame). Trek's first design had
>> two 3mm screws threaded into the BB shell,
>> like a mini belt-with-suspenders. Modern ones
>> thread a 5mm screw into the BB shell, no nut.
>
> Perhaps you can make such a hole in the frame,
> if there isn't one?
>

Easily. Drill a 4mm hole (theoretically 4.2mm but a hand
drill dills large) and tap it m5x0.8.

There's hardly any force trying to move that plate, 2 or
three poorly cut threads are sufficient.

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> Easily. Drill a 4mm hole (theoretically 4.2mm
> but a hand drill dills large) and tap it
> m5x0.8.
>
> There's hardly any force trying to move that
> plate, 2 or three poorly cut threads
> are sufficient.

I think I'll do it like this. First I get the
nylon plate (cable guide). Then I remove the
Torpedo original pulley. Then I clean and oil
the pulley and sell it individually on the
Internet. Then I put on the nylon plate and
sell the bike to a customer who couldn't
care less.

Straight gangsta!

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/20/2016 6:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/20/2016 4:41 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>
>>> The original Vitus design popped into a large
>>> BB hole with a molded plastic peg on the
>>> frame side. There were others after with
>>> a locating peg (the gear wire(s) hold it
>>> against the frame). Trek's first design had
>>> two 3mm screws threaded into the BB shell,
>>> like a mini belt-with-suspenders. Modern ones
>>> thread a 5mm screw into the BB shell, no nut.
>>
>> Perhaps you can make such a hole in the frame,
>> if there isn't one?
>>
>
> Easily. Drill a 4mm hole (theoretically 4.2mm but a hand drill dills
> large) and tap it m5x0.8.

But don't you need a completely equipped machine shop to do that?

<ducks>


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Yes, of course. Especially in Aluminum frames.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Ian Field]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:nk9q4n$k4g$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 6/20/2016 4:41 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:
>>
>>> The original Vitus design popped into a large
>>> BB hole with a molded plastic peg on the
>>> frame side. There were others after with
>>> a locating peg (the gear wire(s) hold it
>>> against the frame). Trek's first design had
>>> two 3mm screws threaded into the BB shell,
>>> like a mini belt-with-suspenders. Modern ones
>>> thread a 5mm screw into the BB shell, no nut.
>>
>> Perhaps you can make such a hole in the frame,
>> if there isn't one?
>>
>
> Easily. Drill a 4mm hole (theoretically 4.2mm but a hand drill dills
> large) and tap it m5x0.8.

The tube section they make the BB out of is usually too thin walled to tap a
machine thread.

Once you've chewed up the hole trying to tap a thread into it, you end up
using a much bigger self tapping screw.

You might get away with "taptight" cold forming screws.

[AMuzi]

And yet the overwhelming majority of new bikes in my
showroom are tapped, with a nylon plate installed. On steel
frames, it's about 3.5mm of material and failure is
vanishingly rare (the most recent one which comes to mind
about 10 years ago was so rusted that the customer broke of
the screw head on removal and then buggered it up trying to
move the stump. m6x1.0 tap and a new stainless screw was a
quick solution)

[Ian Field]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message

news:nkc0j6$8m8$1...@dont-email.me...

Well it would be on a CNC production line - just try doing that with hand
tools...............................

[AMuzi]

OMG I hadn't thought of that before. Tapping a 5mm hole
could be as dangerous as setting a rivnut? (shudder)

As I understand it from discussion on RBT, setting a rivnut
without a mainframe and a host of Fanuc robots [1] might
well cause a singularity and end life as we know it. Let's
all stay safe and use steel clamps with nylon rollers just
in case.

[1]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClXfa4stfJM

[Ian Field]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message

news:nkc4gt$pat$1...@dont-email.me...

As much as I enjoy Sci-Fi - I like to keep it separate from real life.

If you can't - you could end up in the nut house.

[Emanuel Berg]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> Let's all stay safe and use steel clamps with
> nylon rollers just in case.

Cool: "steel clamps with nylon rollers"

[Sir Ridesalot]

TROLL!

[John B.]

Gee, I wish you had posted this sooner. Damn, I've got three bikes
with a threaded hole in the bottom bracket to hold the cable guide.
And, my goodness, one of the bikes is probably 25 years old.

I guess I had better sell them quick, before the bottom bracket falls
off.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, I've done several with "hand tools" and amazingly it worked.
Just call me "Old CNC Hands".
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

or FOOL?
--
cheers,

John B.

[Ian Field]

"John B." <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in message
news:pkojmb5ar1mdl1hu5...@4ax.com...

I've done hundreds - there, see, I can make up fairy tales too.

[Sir Ridesalot]

The Troll liveth in Ian Field. LOL

Cheers