Vitus 979: Removing Cranks and Bottom Bracket?

[honda....@gmail.com]

The cranks have "Shimano 600" printed on them.

-- Will a universal crank puller like the ones sold for a few dollars on eBay work? Or do I need a Shimano crank puller like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sealey-BC020-Shimano-Crank-Puller-Bicycle-/122120134039?hash=item1c6eed5d97:g:BHYAAOSwAuZX1vxs ? Or do I need something else?

-- The Vitus has a cup and cone crank. Can I put new bearings in? If so what are the important specs on the bearing to search for them on eBay? Or how does one proceed with a rebuild of the bottom bracket?

Thank you for any help. I bought this bike in 1987 brand new. I have not ridden this too much in the last ten years but am now enjoying it regularly again. It's a little creaky at the bottom bracket, and I would at least like to inspect down there, if it's at all possible.

[AMuzi]

Any standard 22mm crank remover, cheap at any LBS.

A 1987 600 double spindle is 113mm symmetric if I recall but
you could certainly measure it. If it's the original part,
Shimano stamped the dimensions on spindles in that era.

Symmetric cartridge BB sets are plentiful and cheap.
Asymmetric less so.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[jbeattie]

Andrew, what 1/4" loose bearings do you use -- grade and material? He says its a loose ball BB. I don't think the 1987 600 EX used cartridge bearings, but he certainly could use a UN-whatever (91?) if he wanted.

-- Jay Beattie

[jbeattie]

You also need BB tools -- lock ring spanner, pin tool and, maybe, fixed cup remover. http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/272416196243?vectorid=229466&item=272416196243&rmvSB=true Not these, but something like them to get into the BB.

You would be better off having it serviced or removed by a local shop. Skip buying tools for a dead technology (the fixed cup may be tough to remove with a cheap BB wrench in any event). Get a cartridge bearing and the inexpensive tool to go with it. Incroyable, a NOS UN71 for >$100. http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/272192192462?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true Screw that! Something like this would do: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-bb-un55-bottom-bracket-british-thread/ Its symetrical, though, and may not look as swanky as the original. Tange makes a suitable replacement, too.

Or enter the modern era. http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTQwMFgxNjAw/z/3OEAAOSwNyFWgNqN/$_35.JPG

-- Jay Beattie

[AMuzi]

Right, it probably has loose balls or 9-ball retainers now
but once he knows the spindle dimensions he can decide which
to use.

We use Grade 25 Chrome Steel balls, mostly because we're
picky and in any reasonable quantity they aren't all that
expensive.

A quality 11-ball retainer (Campagnolo, Sugino, etc) is
handy to install with no performance or longevity downside.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/24/2016 8:46 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> You would be better off having it serviced or removed by a local shop. Skip buying tools for a dead technology...

Agreed. Unless, say, you've got a fleet of older bikes and a desire to
learn bike mechanics.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Usually a bottom bracket that has been in so long that it has loose bearings is so old that you will probably screw it all up taking it off. The new bottom brackets installed with a splined tool, insert and remove all hell and gone better anyway.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

YEAH grease absolves ....that is after....unless urine Michigan ...75% evaped n the remainder is semi worthless.
so what you need is a complete teardown n inspection with new balls n grease....silicone grease from Finish Line.

check the seat tube .....if rusty buy a brush ...lube with aluminum anti sieze mixed with a dollop of linseed oil.

..........

if picky, are we matching ball grades to cone n seat quality ?

is this possible ? prob at the extremes ?

caws you know the 25's here from whathisname in Boston, the arsonist ...

always looks fresh but not so the cones

[jbeattie]

Which reminds me of another option -- the local bike co-op. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/self-service-repair http://www.bikefarm.org/ We have a bunch of these places.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie

[honda....@gmail.com]

Hi AMuzi, jbeattie, cycl...@gmail.com, and Datakoll,

Thank you for all the input. It helps a lot. I gave a lot of thought to buying the tools and replacing the bearings in the original Dura-Ace bottom bracket myself. I have been working on my own car for nearly 20 years--timing belts to brake re-lining--and do everything but alignments and so feel good mechanically. However, this past week my well-worn Armadillo All Condition tire got a flat on the rear wheel. The sidewalls were kinda rotting on the Armadillo, too. I do not think I ever had a flat with the Armadillo. It's hard to say how many miles I put on it. I just remember reporting to the LBS maybe six to ten years ago and saying something like, 'Please recommend the most flat-resistant tire you have in stock.' Yesterday I shopped around for the latest flat-resistant tire and decided to try the Schwalbe Marathon Plus. Online savings are minimal to non-existent. I read they were hard to get on, so with all this, I had my LBS do it. There the repairman said I could bet a new bottom bracket cartridge for around $15 and have it installed for around $20. I look forward to trying this soon. I bet I love it.

Meanwhile I am delighted with the feel of my new Schwalbe Marathon Plus rear tire. People spoke of the rolling resistance being lower with it compared to the Armadillo tire. This is my impression, too.

Thank you again, all, for your help.

[AMuzi]

Didn't you write Shimano 600 earlier?
The classic New Dura Ace BB interchanges with Campagnolo
1046A which is a different taper section than the most
common[1] modern cartridge crank spindles and asymmetric as
well.
If it's a BB7400 I would rebuild it or have that done. Nice
product well worth keeping IMHO.

[1]There are good cartridge replacements but not for $15

[honda....@gmail.com]

On Sunday, October 30, 2016 at 12:08:24 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> Didn't you write Shimano 600 earlier?

Yes, this is what is printed on the cranks and the gear shift levers. I thought this was a.k.a. "Shimano Dura-Ace."

> The classic New Dura Ace BB interchanges with Campagnolo
> 1046A which is a different taper section than the most
> common[1] modern cartridge crank spindles and asymmetric as
> well.

Are you saying that the typical modern cartridge crank will not fit my bike? Also that I need an asymetric cartridge and this will cost me more?

What does the Campagnolo 1046A have to do with this?

> If it's a BB7400 I would rebuild it or have that done. Nice
> product well worth keeping IMHO.

Is "7400" going to be stamped on the bottom bracket somewhere and evident when I take the BB apart?

>
> [1]There are good cartridge replacements but not for $15

That's fine. But from what you wrote, now I cannot tell whether one even exists for my Vitus 979.

[AMuzi]

Your New 600 cranks will be stamped FC-6207, FC-6208 or
similar on each arm. The New Dura Ace arms will read
FC-7400, FC-7401 or similar. Matching crank bearings will
share the crank number series, BB-6207, BB-7400 etc. When
you know what you actually have advice will be straightforward.

New Dura Ace crank bearing assemblies are an exact
interchange to Campagnolo 1046A Nuovo Record which was
considered a feature at the time as there was such a large
installed base of replacement parts across many brands for
that format. Shimano 600 is different in taper section and
spindle format.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The Marathon appears to be flat resistant to a good level. But the rubber cuts very easily so you have to keep an eye on that. Gatorskins are what most people are using but I too have found Armadillos to be the best.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The 7400 should be on the left side lock ring if memory serves. Most BB's don't but the Dura Ace 7400 was an exception.

[honda....@gmail.com]

On Sunday, October 30, 2016 at 12:41:27 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:

When you say "New 600 cranks," I am not sure what you mean by "New." I am not looking to replace the cranks. I only want to replace or rebuild the bottom bracket.

In my last post, I asked:

Are you saying that the typical modern cartridge crank will not fit my bike? Also that I need an asymetric cartridge and this will cost me more?

I would still like someone to answer this.

My LBS the other day looked at my Vitus 979 and said a rebuild made the most sense to them. They thought the BB was assymetrical. For them, the cartridge would be a special order and expensive.

[Sir Ridesalot]

What Andrew is geting at is thatthere were a number of variants of Shimano 600 through the years.

From your first post I think you might have what's know as N600 (New 600) cranks and bottom bracket. Prior to that 600 was known as 600EX.

Are your cups and your spindle in good to very good condition? If so then it'd be a whole lot easier just to replace the bottom bracket bearings.

Some Shimano Dura Ace and 600 bottom bracket spindles have a different taper than most other brands. that's the issue Andrew is referring to when he talks about tapers andthe Campagnolo bottom bracket.

Dura Ace and 600 are two different groupsets. Dura Ace is Shimano's top of the line road bike groupset and 600 (now called Ultegra) is tnext one to Dura Ace.

If it were me and the bottom bracket cups and cones were in good condition i'd just replace the bearings and adjust the bottom bracket for smooth running rather than try to find a cartridge bottom bracket that will work. YMMV

Cheers

[AMuzi]

The original 600 EX and AX cranks from the 1970s are
probably not relevant to this discussion. Shimano's product
for the '80s is called "New 600"
http://www.yellowjersey.org/shnew600.jpg

From your post today I believe:
1. Your shop seems savvy.

2. Your cranks are most probably Dura Ace (asymmetric
spindle, classic taper section) not New 600 (symmetric,
revisionist taper section, fits popular cheap sealed units)

So my advice is to take their advice and have them rebuild
your DA crank bearing assembly. Do that again in 4~5 years,
meanwhile enjoy. Oh and be grateful you have a competent
shop nearby, not everyone does.

[jbeattie]

Then do that. A cartridge would be a special order and potentially expensive, assuming you wanted an exact match, i.e. Campy/ISO tapers and a 112mm asymmetric BB spindle. You could get a cheap symmetrical JIS taper BB that would probably work, but if the existing BB is in good shape, you can just rebuild that -- particularly if a shop is doing the work and you don't have to buy the tools.

I owned one of those cranks and always used a Phil BB that I bought in the late '70s for a Campy crank (that broke). https://www.philwood.com/products/bbhome.php But back then, Phil BBs weren't that expensive. http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/catalogs/PaloAlto-76/p17.html

-- Jay Beattie

[honda....@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, November 2, 2016 at 3:51:00 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> What Andrew is geting at is that there were a number of variants of Shimano 600 through the years.

>
> From your first post I think you might have what's know as N600 (New 600) cranks and bottom bracket. Prior to that 600 was known as 600EX.
>
> Are your cups and your spindle in good to very good condition? If so then it'd be a whole lot easier just to replace the bottom bracket bearings.
>
> Some Shimano Dura Ace and 600 bottom bracket spindles have a different taper than most other brands. that's the issue Andrew is referring to when he talks about tapers andthe Campagnolo bottom bracket.
>
> Dura Ace and 600 are two different groupsets. Dura Ace is Shimano's top of the line road bike groupset and 600 (now called Ultegra) is tnext one to Dura Ace.
>
> If it were me and the bottom bracket cups and cones were in good condition i'd just replace the bearings and adjust the bottom bracket for smooth running rather than try to find a cartridge bottom bracket that will work. YMMV

Thank you for explaining, Sir Ridesalot. Now I think I have a handle on what Andrew (AMuzi) was saying.

I appreciate the further input, AMuzi and jbeattie. I will be grateful for my local bike shop and meanwhile, contemplate my own rebuild this winter, if only to ultimately learn exactly what my LBS is going to do. I like seeing the parts and how they go together. It's not urgent. Whenever I get the identifying numbers off the bottom bracket, I will try to remember to post back, for anyone else interested. I bought this bike in 1986, not 1987. I am a woman who happens to be very competent IMO at working on my old Honda Civic. Still I have not done any serious mechanical work on my bikes over the years. I appreciate the parts explanations here in particular.

Signing off :)

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 7:23:30 AM UTC-8, honda....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Thank you for explaining, Sir Ridesalot. Now I think I have a handle on what Andrew (AMuzi) was saying.

If you do, you'll be the first.........

[AMuzi]

Was I unclear on some point?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

That was a jab in the ribs Andrew

[honda....@gmail.com]

Update:
I found a new LBS I really like and left them with instructions to replace the bottom bracket as needed. They took it apart and found it in good condition. They cleaned the ball bearings et cetera, added a bit of grease, and adjusted. The clicking I was having when riding under load up hill went away as a result. Cost was only $21 for labor and basic cleaning materials.

[AMuzi]

On 6/30/2018 3:25 PM, honda....@gmail.com wrote:
> Update:
> I found a new LBS I really like and left them with instructions to replace the bottom bracket as needed. They took it apart and found it in good condition. They cleaned the ball bearings et cetera, added a bit of grease, and adjusted. The clicking I was having when riding under load up hill went away as a result. Cost was only $21 for labor and basic cleaning materials.
>

Right.
Dried lubricant, dirt in system, damaged bearing, improperly
adjusted, loose right cup, dry crank bolts/tapers, loose/dry
chainring bolts etc are all noisy but readily rectified with
routine maintenance.