Antifreeze to loosen stuck stem?

[bob prohaska]

A local bike shop suggested using antifreeze as a penetrating
lubricant to free an aluminum stem stuck in a steel fork. I've
never heard of the method and wondered if anybody here has
experience with it.

The bike is an old Cannondale with the original steel fork. The
stem is Technomics, unmoved for far too many years. I've soaked
the stem in pentrating oil and also tried automatic transmission
fluid thinned with acetone, I have not yet tried heating it since
the only surface accessible is that of the stem. That will be
tried, but I'm not holding my breath:

I managed to get a gear puller on it from underneath, using a
loop of chain around the hips of the fork for purchase, which
worked quite well. Alas, tightening the puller and rapping on it
with a hammper hard enough to dent a 3/8" nut used as a cusion
under the puller screw yielded zero progress. The locking wedge
can't be removed (the bottom of the fork isn't bored full diameter)
so the puller bears on the wedge, which is free on the stem. That's
not ideal but there's no obvious alternative.

I'd be curious to know what ideas folks have for dealing with
this predicament. Obviously I can use destructive methods, but
other optiions are worth exploring first.


Thanks for reading, and any thoughts,

bob prohaska

[avag...@gmail.com]

the white stuff is an inorganic compound not dissolving with organic solvents.

THATS IT

THE WHITE STUFF accumulated atoms from disimmilar metals then added O2 H2O H molecules atoms into a slip fit space so if there's an inorganic solvent....say nitric acid...


how would you deliver it to the WHITE STUFF ? like ura only gonna pou a wee bit on the top pf an extremely jammed space....

heat is the answer if you can apply enough heat to expand outer withour damaging the material butbutbut remember itsnot a few threads on a nut itsa long sleeve.

toss it

next time mix linseed oil with aluminum based ant-seize. for a post lubricant.

look the Q in wikipedia.

[AMuzi]

The old British car manuals called engine coolant a "seeking
fluid' in that it seeps where water will not so in theory
they may have a point. I don't know if it would be an
improvement over GM-Delco penetrant or ammonia.

In practice, since you haven't moved it with normal methods,
we would cut the stem, drop the fork and extract the stump:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/stkromi2.jpg


--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Doug Landau]

This is an attempt to blame the oil (in this case coolant) for leaking instead of themselves for their quality standards

[AMuzi]

As the pithy Carroll Smith observed in _Prepare to Win_, the
opening paragraph on cooling systems reads, "Find every
clamp which says 'Made in England' and throw them away".

[Doug Landau]

And you think sms hasn't found a defective spring. Coat hangers are not springy.

[avag...@gmail.com]

The old grease gin given me refused the last zerk. N no positive lock...struggle.

Dump.

Bought a Lucas from Amazone. Reluctantly.

Prob made in Vermont.

Super
.
serious positive zerk lock no hands n very measured squeeze grip ouput.

Lucas knee how mah

Prince of Darkness

[John B.]

Some years ago I bought a second(3rd? 4th? 5th?) hand bike with a
frozen seat post which I spent some time removing. Ultimately I made a
"drill bit" and bored the thing out and after this I found that there
were thin slivers of aluminum that were "welded" to the inside of the
seat tube apparently by corrosion between the aluminum post and the
steel tube that required removal with a special hone (that I also had
to manufacture :-(

I suspect that in extreme cases there is no penetrating fluid that
will loosen an aluminum *whatisit* in a steel tube. I have seen
mention of using a lye mix to "eat" aluminum out of a steel tube but
have not tried it myself.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I remember my mother's car developed troubles and the mechanic
diagnosed it as a leaking head gasket. When asked why the gasket had
not leaked during the past summer he explained that "anti-freeze",
ethylene-glycol in this case, would "find leaks that water couldn't".

As the problem went away and never returned with the replacement of
the gasket apparently the mechanic was correct.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 2 Aug 2017 17:55:21 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska
<b...@www.zefox.net> wrote:

>I'd be curious to know what ideas folks have for dealing with
>this predicament. Obviously I can use destructive methods, but
>other optiions are worth exploring first.

This topic appears in r.b.t. about once per year, usually in reference
to a stuck seat post in the seat tube. Search Google Groups for
"stuck seat post" in r.b.t.

As I recall, the usual recommendations are (in random order):
1. Custom milling cutter to "drill" out the aluminum stem.
2. Sodium hydroxide (lye or caustic soda) to attack just the
aluminum.
3. Refrigeration or liquid nitrogen. The aluminum stem will shrink
more than steel, which might open a gap between the steel tube and
aluminum step. Ideally, heat the steel, while cooling the aluminum.
4. Slide hammer to grip the lower end of the seat post. For this to
work on a stem, the stem will need to be cut off and the center shaft
be enlarged by drilling or reaming.
5. Attach a vibrating tool, such as an ultrasonic scaler or Sawzall,
to break loose or crumble the rust.
6. Induction heater. This will heat the steel, but leave the
aluminum cold. The steel expands, but the aluminum stays the same
diameter. This works, but will wreck the heat treating and paint on
the steel tubes. You might be able to get away with it if you
carefully monitor the steel tube temperature.
7. Impact wrench. Chop off the top of the stem. Use a file to
modify what's left of the stem, into a hex bolt head. Use impact
wrench to drive it with an impact socket. Hopefully, the repeated
impacts will cause the stem to spin in the head tube.
8. Drill out the center hole in the stem to the largest possible
diameter without hitting the steel head tube. Take a hack saw blade
and CAREFULLY saw some radial slots. You really only need two slots
but more will be better. Pick a likely section (between two slots)
and beat on it inward with a hammer and cold chisel until the section
breaks loose. Pry under the remaining sections and they should just
fall out.

My original list was longer, so there are some ideas I've forgotten.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[avag...@gmail.com]

Bike Topl needs a search for 'HONE'

[avag...@gmail.com]

Super memory Electro

I recall only 1 or 2 claims of value fir the damaged bicycle, posts begin

I found the XXXX in a dumpster

or I was given...poss as a joke.

Life us long n this BS doesn't improve conditions

[bob prohaska]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> In practice, since you haven't moved it with normal methods,

I only tried for about an hour, not much for problems of this
kind. Mostly I wanted to see if the puller and chain sling would
hold, and it does. If folks gave posititive reports on the
antifreeze trick I'd try that next. It looks like I'll be using
the standard heat and penetrating oil quench cycle. That'll take
a day or two at least. Fortunately there's no hurry.

I do wonder though, what is the ammonia method you mention?

> we would cut the stem, drop the fork and extract the stump:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/stkromi2.jpg

Didn't the heat to melt the aluminum anneal the fork?

Thanks for posting,

bob prohaska

>

[Tosspot]

Dynamite.

[David Scheidt]

John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
:On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 14:41:46 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

:>
:>The old British car manuals called engine coolant a "seeking

:>fluid' in that it seeps where water will not so in theory
:>they may have a point. I don't know if it would be an
:>improvement over GM-Delco penetrant or ammonia.

:>

:I remember my mother's car developed troubles and the mechanic

:diagnosed it as a leaking head gasket. When asked why the gasket had
:not leaked during the past summer he explained that "anti-freeze",
:ethylene-glycol in this case, would "find leaks that water couldn't".

Anti-freeze has a lower surface tension than plain water. So it can
indeed find leaks that water doesn't. Modern stuff is also loaded
with additives that further lower the surface tension, which improves
heat transfer.



--
sig 72

[cycl...@gmail.com]

You ask a question and get answers for non-related questions. That's the tech group alright.

What have you got to lose trying the antifreeze? You should have a can of it around for your car anyway unless you have an electric car.

When my car heater stopped working I discovered that the previous owner had put water in the cooling system with multiple metals in the cooling system. Adding coolant and pressure blew what appeared to be pus out of the heater core and the heater became functional again.

[jbeattie]

Other options for a stuck stem:

1. Hack off stem. Buy new fork. I did that with my old Cannondale (with no stuck stem), but then again, I installed a super-dangerous CF fork (that never broke, and I gave it away.) In fact, if Bob had only had this problem a few years ago, I could have sent him the old steel OE fork used on Cannondale road bikes from '84-90-ish. One could even make the move to threadless.

As for removing stems, what about soaking in an appropriate solution (ammonia or penetrant or what have you) and then using a pipe with the same OD as the ID of the steerer and whacking from the bottom? Mine never stuck so bad I couldn't twist them out, but working from the bottom up seems like its do-able.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

Aluminum flows below the steel's temper limit. We use a
large oxy-propane head for this.

Understand that the basic problem here is that metal oxides
are bigger than metals. Ammonia in theory might reduce the
oxide, leaving some space. In practice I've had limited
success but some people seem to prefer it.

[AMuzi]

Not likely with a butted steering column and a wedge type stem.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 07:11:40 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>
wrote:

>As for removing stems, what about soaking in an appropriate solution
>(ammonia or penetrant or what have you) and then using a pipe with
>the same OD as the ID of the steerer and whacking from the bottom?
>Mine never stuck so bad I couldn't twist them out, but working from
>the bottom up seems like its do-able.
>-- Jay Beattie.

I don't think it will work. Did you look at the metal surface under a
magnifier after separation? I did that on an antenna structure, not a
bicycle. I found a mixture of white aluminum oxide and red iron oxide
rust. The aluminum oxide is quite hard and penetrated the surface of
the steel tubing. The rust is not quite so hard, but still harder
than aluminum. Both surfaces were severely pitted. The problem is
that these pits are full of this expanded mix, locking everything in
place[1]. The only ways you can break this loose is to either
dissolve the aluminum oxide or gouge the soft aluminum.

The way I separated the steel tube and aluminum antenna base was by
heating and letting the partial vacuum created while it cooled to suck
in some window cleaner decanted from my windshield wiper reservoir.
This was on a 6500 ft mountain top, so my available resources were
rather limited. It took 4 tries, but eventually worked. What I
guess(tm) was happening is that the heat expansion was crushing the
oxide mix and pushing the rust further into the aluminum. When the
assembly cooled, it left a small air gap, which allowed more fluid to
enter on the next cycle. Eventually, the combination of dissolving
the aluminum oxide and enlarging the gap allowed separation.

Maybe some of these might be usable:
<https://www.theruststore.com/Rust-Remover-Comparison-Chart-W22.aspx>
<https://www.theruststore.com/Rust-Removers-C1.aspx>


[1] When something oxidizes, it usually grows in volume. This is
what happens to steel rebar inside concrete when it rusts. The rebar
and rust expand, cracking the concrete. That's roughly what's
happening inside the bicycle tube and stem.

[avag...@gmail.com]

YAWL miss a basic point I scream abt.....

the inorganic ionic transfer compound is between 2 tubes n has length

how deliver ammonia ...fresh fluid has to circulate over the compound ....uneeda delivery system pump in pump out like dentist.

rinse.

impossible. trees forest square hole round peg

I like the induction idea .....cast around for an induction oven for AM

[cycl...@gmail.com]

You're thinking that a chemical reaction is what is necessary. That is only the case if penetration proves impossible.

[bob prohaska]

cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> What have you got to lose trying the antifreeze? You should have a can of it around for your car anyway unless you have an electric car.
>

It's mostly an issue of what to try first. I've figured out how to apply
force with minimal risk of damage, next step is deciding what lubricants
to try.

I'm a little skeptical of antifreeze because the chemistry of
antifreeze has changed a great deal with the advent of aluminum engines
and radiators. Before aluminum engines and radiators were commonplace,
antifreeze had to be carefully chosen to avoid damaging aluminum parts.
The antifreeze I have very specifically states it's safe for aluminum.
That would seem to bode ill for the problem at hand, unless somebody
offers a recent account. The only dated story I have is from the '80s.

> When my car heater stopped working I discovered that the previous owner had put water in the cooling system with multiple metals in the cooling system. Adding coolant and pressure blew what appeared to be pus out of the heater core and the heater became functional again.

That's encouraging, what year car? Was the antifreeze rated for aluminum?

It's starting to look as if I'll try to live with the bike until the
fall and it's too cold to ride. There don't seem to be any reliable
approaches except replacing the fork. I'm not there yet..

Thanks for reading and replying,

bob prohaska

[bob prohaska]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> Understand that the basic problem here is that metal oxides
> are bigger than metals.

I fully appreciate that fact....

> Ammonia in theory might reduce the
> oxide, leaving some space. In practice I've had limited
> success but some people seem to prefer it.

That's encouraging, would you say a little more? What strength
of ammonia? How hot (or cold)? How much time? I'm retired, so
patience is my only limit.

A little reading suggests that weak alkalis like ammonia can
react with aluminum hydroxide to form soluble salts. That's a
step in the right direction.

Thanks!

bob prohaska

[AMuzi]

A quick web perusal shows our archives, Mr Brown, some
chemistry fora where the posts are mostly personal invective
and one kayak forum with general advice to throw out
aluminum paddles.

In theory ammonia should reduce the oxide but in practice
time and temperature seem to be big variables.

[avag...@gmail.com]

That is only the case if penetration proves POSSIBLE

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I'm driving the only thing I can afford - a 1999 Ford Taurus. Too bad it has all sorts of bugs in it that none of the other's have. But I would buy another in a second.

The coolant system was drained by the best mechanic in the area and Ford rated coolant installed so I assume that it was rated for aluminum. Tom Arnerich never uses anything but the best factory recommended stuff.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, August 3, 2017 at 11:05:53 PM UTC-7, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> That is only the case if penetration proves POSSIBLE

Ammonia has a lot less surface tension than water so what I would do is try to penetrate with the antifreeze and then follow up with ammonia. And I would NOT heat the ammonia since it is toxic.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Duh supply and resupply

Read down thersa pedia

https://www.google.com/search?q=corrosive+ammonia&oq=corrosive+ammonia&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3j69i60l2.11634j0j4&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Not finding a more corrosive nh3 ..no ammonia plus so far

[Doug Landau]

I do think Coca-cola worked for me once. I can't prove it. But I tried it one night and the [fluted] post came out the next day.

[bob prohaska]

Doug Landau <doug....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I do think Coca-cola worked for me once. I can't prove it. But I tried it one night and the [fluted] post came out the next day.
>

I just happen to have some old Pepsi. It's got phosphoric acid in it,
and I'll never drink the stuff, so maybe rotting out a stuck stem is
a fitting end for it 8-)

bob prohaska

[bob prohaska]

cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I'm driving the only thing I can afford - a 1999 Ford Taurus. Too bad it has all sorts of bugs in it that none of the other's have. But I would buy another in a second.
>
> The coolant system was drained by the best mechanic in the area and Ford rated coolant installed so I assume that it was rated for aluminum. Tom Arnerich never uses anything but the best factory recommended stuff.

I've got some modern Prestone, in both colors. I think my first bet will be
on heat and oil, but after that fails it'll be Pepsi and Prestone, maybe with
some heat for good measure. .

bob prohaska

[avag...@gmail.com]

Organic solvents DO NOT dissolve inorganic materials.

You stupid or what ?

[avag...@gmail.com]

Coke contains phosphoric acid used for cleaning concrete n tooth enamel...an inorganic solvent

Citric degreasers n anti freeze are organic solvents ... motor oil n antifreeze are organic...that is of plants or plant like synthetics.

30-40 years ago n then before oral hygiene , a cold coke washed your mouth then deposited a tasty cola mix on the buds. Trick, no ?

That bloromed, J, during the usual drug epidemic then 1880-1900 of the usual addictive pain killers n cocaine.

Pharmacy coke was maybe $10 Oz.

Snake oil wagons not sandwich trucks

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://www.bing.com/search?q=organic+solvents+wiki&qs=RI&pq=wiki+organic+solvents&sc=1-21&cvid=04229724261A4FD3B13835722CE67229&FORM=QBLH&sp=1&ghc=1

https://www.bing.com/search?q=inorganic%20solvents%20wiki&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=undefined&sc=0-23&sk=&cvid=60BEDB450B8B4C31B5DB8CAF7F1010B1

[bob prohaska]

bob prohaska <b...@www.zefox.net> wrote:
> I've got some modern Prestone, in both colors. I think my first bet will be
> on heat and oil, but after that fails it'll be Pepsi and Prestone,
> maybe with some heat for good measure.
>

Just to wrap the story up, the solution turned out to be a couple
pieces of angle iron, in fact an old bedframe.....

They were arranged as a sort of "crutch" alongside the steering tube,
with the ends tucked up against the fork crown and held in place with
a hose clamp. Turning the bike over and resting the crutches on the
garage floor gave enough support to let me drive the stem out using a
third piece of angle iron as a drift, under the "chin" of the stem..

The real surprise was how well the "crutches" supported the fork crown
against rather vigorous use of a sixteen ounce hammer. Aside from some
cosmetic damage no harm was done. I really didn't expect the setup to
work, but tried it in preparation for further efforts in the fall.

Once apart, no corrosion was found on the aluminum, but visible
rust from the steel formed a thin, adherent layer on the stem. A
very light cleaning and coat of grease restored a good fit of stem
in fork.

The puller arrangement was not strong enough; the chain began to
stretch before anything moved.

A few photos can be found at
http://www.zefox.net/~bob/bicycle/stempuller/

Thanks for reading, and everyone's wisdom!

bob prohaska

[avag...@gmail.com]

The unit WAS lubed with antiseize

N mild heat would reduce the hammwring

Well thought out rig

Publish here as a standalone with a searchable title.

[John B.]

Congratulations.
--
Cheers,

John B.