Question for Frank

[John B.]

You have mentioned that you use or have used aero handle bars. I
recently bought a set which I intend to use in Phuket where there are
quite long stretches of road with light traffic.

I am aware that they take some getting used to but wonder where to
start. Does in simply clamp them on the existing bars and ride, or do
you need to raise or lower the existing handle bar position. At
present my road bike bars are about 2 inches lower than the seat which
seem quite comfortable to me, but if resting on the elbows that might
change.

My thoughts are that the resting on the elbows position will be more
comfortable or perhaps I should say "restful" which I believe is the
RAAM conception, rather then trying for an ultimate streamlined
position.

Any advise will be gratefully accepted.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

I've also used aero bars on both a road bike and an MTB. If you wantthe same back angle as you currently have then you'll need to loer your handlebar a bit but remember thatt he aero bar also extends your reach. How much you need to move your handlebar will depend on how hight the elbow rests on your aero bars are.

When first using the aero bars be vigilant in turns as they can be more "squirrely" due to the closeness of your arms and your forward position. A parking lot is a great place to get use to aero bars - when there's no traffic in it of course. I like school pave tracks for getting used to new things like aero bars.

Cheers

[John B.]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 20:09:24 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 9:43:38 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> You have mentioned that you use or have used aero handle bars. I
>> recently bought a set which I intend to use in Phuket where there are
>> quite long stretches of road with light traffic.
>>
>> I am aware that they take some getting used to but wonder where to
>> start. Does in simply clamp them on the existing bars and ride, or do
>> you need to raise or lower the existing handle bar position. At
>> present my road bike bars are about 2 inches lower than the seat which
>> seem quite comfortable to me, but if resting on the elbows that might
>> change.
>>
>> My thoughts are that the resting on the elbows position will be more
>> comfortable or perhaps I should say "restful" which I believe is the
>> RAAM conception, rather then trying for an ultimate streamlined
>> position.
>>
>> Any advise will be gratefully accepted.
>> --
>> cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>I've also used aero bars on both a road bike and an MTB. If you wantthe same back angle as you currently have then you'll need to loer your handlebar a bit but remember thatt he aero bar also extends your reach. How much you need to move your handlebar will depend on how hight the elbow rests on your aero bars are.

I often ride with my hands on the hoods and my elbows bent about 90
degrees. If I can get that same back angle with the weight resting on
my elbows that will be about what I want.

>When first using the aero bars be vigilant in turns as they can be more "squirrely" due to the closeness of your arms and your forward position. A parking lot is a great place to get use to aero bars - when there's no traffic in it of course. I like school pave tracks for getting used to new things like aero bars.
>
>Cheers

So I have heard and I plan to be very, very, cautious when I first use
them.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/24/2016 11:09 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 9:43:38 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> You have mentioned that you use or have used aero handle bars. I
>> recently bought a set which I intend to use in Phuket where there are
>> quite long stretches of road with light traffic.
>>
>> I am aware that they take some getting used to but wonder where to
>> start. Does in simply clamp them on the existing bars and ride, or do
>> you need to raise or lower the existing handle bar position. At
>> present my road bike bars are about 2 inches lower than the seat which
>> seem quite comfortable to me, but if resting on the elbows that might
>> change.
>>
>> My thoughts are that the resting on the elbows position will be more
>> comfortable or perhaps I should say "restful" which I believe is the
>> RAAM conception, rather then trying for an ultimate streamlined
>> position.
>>
>> Any advise will be gratefully accepted.

I started using them so long ago, I don't positively remember what I
did. But I think I just bolted them on without adjusting the height of
my regular bars.

I have my regular bars much higher than yours, about even with my
saddle. Still, when I'm on the aero bars, by upper body is much lower
than when I ride either on the hoods or on the drops. I suppose that
would vary depending on the brand of bars (or really, the height of the
elbow pads).

I use the aero bars more for their aero benefit than for comfort. Yes,
they take pressure off my hands, but they make me crane my neck upward
to a degree that is slightly uncomfortable. And there is a slight
reduction in control, and the lack of readily accessible brake levers.
Because of these factors, I tend to use them only a small percentage of
my riding time. Examples: Coasting downhill, cranking hard to catch up
to a group of riders, picking up speed & momentum before shooting up a
short hill, or on super-windy days. I doubt I ever use them for an hour
at a time without breaks.

Regarding hand comfort: If my hands get tired on really long rides I've
even ridden with my palms on the elbow pads. Anything for variety in
that situation.

> When first using the aero bars be vigilant in turns as they can be more "squirrely" due to the closeness of your arms and your forward position. A parking lot is a great place to get use to aero bars - when there's no traffic in it of course. I like school pave tracks for getting used to new things like aero bars.

I agree with being vigilant. The first time I used them (in our club's
time trial) I almost took out a mailbox about 15 feet from the start!
Of course, I got rapidly better with practice. But I'd still never use
them within a pack of riders.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

John - it's almost impossible to get used to riding on TT bars if you're over the age of 30. They stretch you WAY too far out and destroy your balance on the bike. You have to keep sitting up to put your hands on the controls on any road problems and they cannot be used going down inclines of more than about 2% at the most.

[AMuzi]

I must disagree. We regularly see middle age riders who ask
for aero bars, set high, for use on community and charity
rides, hardly competitive events. The users intend to 'rest'
on them, not 'cheat the wind'.

There's a real risk of reduced vision/awareness while
looking down with aero bars so, as Frank wrote, pay attention!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[James]

Wow. Erm, no. I disagree. Until a couple of years ago I was racing
with a veterans cycling club. There were a couple of ITT events each
year. I can assure you, there were a lot of riders well over 50 still
competently using TT bars.

TT bars exist in wide variety. Some are quite adjustable and let you
move the hand grips fore and aft. I think some allow the arm rests to
be raised and lowered a bit too.

I simply bolted on a pair of Cinelli Spinachi bars. These were fine for
me on my road bike for a 20km TT. Certainly no problem going down hill.
I might change position going up hill to gain more leverage on the bars.

Effective TT bar use does require training. The altered position
changes the range of joint movement, and core stability is a must
because you cannot compensate with your upper body.

--
JS

[John B.]

Yup, old fellows can't do it. I for instance, took up running and ran
marathons (albeit slowly) long after I passed the 50 year old mark.

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Thanks for that. On my better days I ride with my hands on the hoods
and my elbows bent about 90 degrees so I suspect that the aero bar
will be similar with less strain on the back. As for neck bending,
certainly true although I do find that the more I do it the easier it
becomes :-)

>Regarding hand comfort: If my hands get tired on really long rides I've
>even ridden with my palms on the elbow pads. Anything for variety in
>that situation.
>
>> When first using the aero bars be vigilant in turns as they can be more "squirrely" due to the closeness of your arms and your forward position. A parking lot is a great place to get use to aero bars - when there's no traffic in it of course. I like school pave tracks for getting used to new things like aero bars.
>
>I agree with being vigilant. The first time I used them (in our club's
>time trial) I almost took out a mailbox about 15 feet from the start!
>Of course, I got rapidly better with practice. But I'd still never use
>them within a pack of riders.

I can see that they will require a, perhaps extended, learning process
and I shall probably never try them in Bangkok traffic :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

You mean that me at age 65+ can't ride the aero bars I've been riding for well over20 years? Gasp! I'd better remove them pronto!

VBEG LOL

Sorry, but I have many friends over 50 years of age whom I introduce to aero bars and who got used to them and love them. That includes the ones who use them on their MTBs fior road riding.

Cheers

[John B.]

My finding is that as Dr. George Sheehan wrote in Runner's Magazine,
"Us old guys can do anything that you youngsters can do. Perhaps a bit
slower."
--
cheers,

John B.

[Graham]

"Sir Ridesalot" <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:0596caf1-693c-44c6...@googlegroups.com...

+1

I am of a similar age and still race TTs regularly. I have no problem riding a much more extreme position as the base bar on the TT bike is level with the top tube and the pads around a couple of inches above that. On the winter training/leisure bike I have a set fastened on top of the normal handle bars.

As others have said they take a bit of getting used to in the very beginning but just like other bike riding skills with practice riding on aero bars soon becomes second nature regardless of age.

The summer bike does not have aero bars but on fast long flat sections of road or into a head wind I will quite happily ride with my forearms resting on the bar tops as if the bike were fitted with aero bars.

I believe most riders should find aero bars a comfortable and useful addition if their bars are already at a comfortable height for them and the bars are mounted on top of their normal bars.

Graham.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[russell...@yahoo.com]

I just took the aerobars off one of my bikes. I just did not use them much. They were Profile bars with the flip up armrests. You have to bend your neck a lot to see ahead. More than even riding in the drops. I found it more enjoyable to go fast using the drops than the aerobars. Probably not too much aero difference between the drops and aerobars. I did not change my handlebars position when installing or removing the aerobars.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/26/2016 2:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Probably not too much aero difference between the drops and aerobars.

IME, there's a definite aero advantage to the aerobars compared to
drops. And I'm pretty sure that's been confirmed many times by wind
tunnel testing, etc.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Yes it has. With the qualification that "the arms are close together".
--
cheers,

John B.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

I can ride about as fast in the drops. Couple tenths faster with the aerobars. Not much but some. Maybe being more comfortable in the drops allows me to stay in them for much longer. So drops end up faster overall. Craning the neck back at 118 degrees to see when in the aerobars is not good. Can only ride them and look forward for a short time. If you could ride them and look at the front wheel all the time, then faster sure. But I like to see where I am riding.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

studies on lung efficiency with aerobars ?

average time trial no more than 20 miles ? anaerobic thresholds, or something thereof, for competitive riders ?

leaving yawl in the lurch ?

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 9:22:32 AM UTC-4, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 6:39:28 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 10/26/2016 2:41 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > Probably not too much aero difference between the drops and aerobars.
> >
> > IME, there's a definite aero advantage to the aerobars compared to
> > drops. And I'm pretty sure that's been confirmed many times by wind
> > tunnel testing, etc.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
>

%%%%%%%%%%%%

studies on lung efficiency with aerobars ?

average time trial no more than 20 miles ? anaerobic thresholds, or something thereof, for competitive riders ?

leaving yawl in the lurch ?

self testing ? GPS with center bar holds vs normal holds, into the wind

[cycl...@gmail.com]

John - mounting "aero" bars high and far enough back so that you can look forward is not "aero" bars. I don't know exactly what you'd call them but even pros have a hard time staying on aero bars in ITT's.

[John B Slocomb]

I have the feeling that there is a matter in definition here. Is
"aero" a term used only for those with their back perfectly flat, or
can it apply to someone that is leaning forward only 45 degrees?

I've found that simply moving my hands to the drops with my elbows
still straight increases coasting speed on one particular kill by just
about 1 kph. Is that not "aero"?

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, November 1, 2016 at 7:25:38 AM UTC-4, John B Slocomb wrote:
>
> I have the feeling that there is a matter in definition here. Is
> "aero" a term used only for those with their back perfectly flat, or
> can it apply to someone that is leaning forward only 45 degrees?
>
> I've found that simply moving my hands to the drops with my elbows
> still straight increases coasting speed on one particular kill by just
> about 1 kph. Is that not "aero"?

"Aero" is a vague word, of course. But IME moving from the drops to the
aero bar causes a similar increase in speed, perhaps even more.

A few years ago, there were some wind tunnel test results reported in _Bicycle
Quarterly_. Of course, they've appeared in other sources as well - but those
in BQ concentrated on fairly normal-looking bikes, not time trial machines or
the like.

One salient fact was that drag coefficent seemed unaffected by rider posture.
Any aero benefit came (almost?) entirely from reductions in frontal area. If
true, that's good news, because it's far easier to notice one's own changes in
frontal area. It should be obvious, for example, whether one's elbows are
sticking out in the wind or not.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B Slocomb]

But one must shave the legs :-)

[Sir Ridesalot]

There was a study done, iirc not that long ago, that showed a pretty good aero asdvantage with shaved legs. In fact those that did the study were surprised at how much of an advantage sghaved legs gave.

Cheers

[Joy Beeson]

On Tue, 1 Nov 2016 07:26:35 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Aero" is a vague word, of course. But IME moving from the drops to the
> aero bar causes a similar increase in speed, perhaps even more.

And sitting up straight and spreading yourself out is a good way to
brake when coasting down a hill.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[John B Slocomb]

On Wed, 02 Nov 2016 23:02:14 -0400, Joy Beeson
<jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

>On Tue, 1 Nov 2016 07:26:35 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
><frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Aero" is a vague word, of course. But IME moving from the drops to the
>> aero bar causes a similar increase in speed, perhaps even more.
>
>And sitting up straight and spreading yourself out is a good way to
>brake when coasting down a hill.

Yes, I think Frank mentioned that. Downhill speed builds up until the
aerodynamic drag equals the effect of gravity. Based on sky divers
anecdotes that is something like 100 mph. Whoopee!

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

those reading the study were surprised how much leverage the advantage gave the study

[Frank Krygowski]

It depends on the slope, of course (and wind direction, to a much lesser
degree). And weight of the bike+rider.

I led a fairly hilly club ride last week. Using my aero bars on the
downhills, I generally out-coast most members of our club. But one new
member of our club was blasting past me on every downhill, despite
sitting upright and using straight handlebars. His secret? I suspect he
weighs over 250 pounds.

(I give him great credit for keeping up on the uphills!)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B Slocomb]

Yes, weight certainly does help in the mountains. About half the time
:-)

[Radey Shouman]

Half the *distance* you mean. Way less than half the *time*.


--

[John B Slocomb]

Well, I suppose I was using the vernacular, i.e., the time I was in
Belgrade, or the time I saw that ugly woman, or even the time I was in
the mountains :-)

[cycl...@gmail.com]

My guess is that shaving your legs alone makes a bigger increase in speed than using the drops. And using aero bars back far enough so that you can see ahead to miss glass on the road and observe traffic is highly unlikely to improve speed as much as using the drops.

I tried Frank's experiment and pedaling on the drops on a 5% hill increased the speed of the bike one mph. From 35 to 36 mph.

Question - why would that be of interest to anyone?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Uh, one hesitates to think what that means.....