Getting into and out of streamliner recumbents

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Interestingly enough a normal recumbent three wheeler is hard to get on and off of perhaps the two wheelers are easier. But I can hardly picture how you would get on and off of those streamlined ones.

But I think that they are a good idea. Now only would they give you additional speed (a friend of mine who rides a standard two wheel recumbent says that it's reasonably easy for him to ride at 40) but also protection from the weather. Though the idea of windshield wipers for fully enclosed models appears to be somewhat daunting.

Another thing is that you could have the streamliner painted a bright color to make it a lot more visible than a non-covered version.

[Joerg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f47cRkrj120

It sure isn't a vehicle for people with lower back issues.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[AMuzi]

I am not an expert.
That said, of the few times I've been bashed by a motor
vehicle in traffic I went up and over every time except one
(big rental truck turning for a left hook kill shot on a
one-way street with LH bicycle 'facility').

I look at recumbents, then look at car bumper height and
wonder...

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[DougC]

On 4/14/2017 12:44 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

Velo windshields fog up on the inside surface, in the rain. The
windshields flip up and end up being just a visor in rainy weather.

The racing 2-wheel streamliners can't be used solo at all, since the
shells are totally enclosed and are taped shut after the rider is inside.

So far the /only/ 2-wheel streamliners I've heard of being sold for
street use is the Peregrin-on-Birk
http://speedbikes.ch/en/peregrin-on-a-birk/
it is built very nice but the typical delivered price is $30K - $35K.

If you get a long-wheelbase recumbent and add a front fairing and
bodysock, you can get most of the aero gains of a hard shell with very
little cost and weight added. They look dorky but a decent job can add
5-7 mph to your flat-ground cruising speeds, assuming you have the
gearing for that.

[Sir Ridesalot]

I'm surprised that noone makes a streamliner with a sliding rear part of the body. Slidethe body rerarward to get in and then pull it forward when ready to pedal away. It'd be much like the sliding canopy on a WW2 fighter plane Such as the P-40, the Hurrican or the Yak-3.

Cheers

[DougC]

Three points:
1) safety bicycles were introduced to reduce the problem of people
falling-over-forward on penny-farthings,,,,, and yet the main cause of
severe injuries from (safety) bicycles today is head/neck/clavicle
injuries caused by riders going over the handlebars during hard braking
or collisions, and landing on their heads.

The Longbikes Slipstream is said to be the safest type of bicycle in a
crash, because 1) it is too long to flip over forward from braking, and
2) in a collision the rider simply slides forward off the bike,
feet-first. The under-seat-steering means there's nothing to impede the
rider's body as it moves forward.
http://www.longbikes.com/2/Bikes/Slipstream/Slipstream.html

2) recumbents main advantage is greater riding comfort, but that is only
useful on long rides (like, 50+ miles). And most bicyclists don't take a
lot of long rides in urban areas, so recumbents simply aren't well
suited for urban environments anyway: their main advantage goes unused.

If for some reason I was forced to live in a big urban area, I would
probably only own small-wheel folding bikes; they make the most sense
for that circumstance. ...However...

3) if you are riding a bicycle at all, the most likely way you will get
severely hurt or killed is by being hit by a motor vehicle. So trying to
ride in urban areas--where motor vehicle traffic is concentrated higher
than anywhere else--is kinda silly.

[DougC]

On 4/14/2017 2:22 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

>
> I'm surprised that noone makes a streamliner with a sliding rear part of the body. Slidethe body rerarward to get in and then pull it forward when ready to pedal away. It'd be much like the sliding canopy on a WW2 fighter plane Such as the P-40, the Hurrican or the Yak-3.
>
> Cheers
>

Many home-builders have tried, but it ends up being too heavy. Also,
having big airplane-style canopy windows means you boil in sunny/warm
weather.

There is also occasionally, a commercial builder offering tadpole trike
(2-wheels in front) bodies where the whole thing flips up (on either a
front-end or rear-end hinge) to enter and exit. These body shells end up
being very flimsy compared to a good velomobile, and much heavier besides.

When trying to build bicycle bodies--especially for practical use--the
main enemy is weight. All the main velomobile manufacturers now have an
all-carbon-fiber monocoque model as their top offering, because despite
being expensive it ends up being less weight than any other method.

[Sir Ridesalot]

I did NOT mean for the entire thing to be enclosed. I was thinking that the body shell would be in two halves a fixed forward area and a sliding rear area. the seat would be fixed to the front portion of the frame and the shell behind the seat and at the side would be able to be slid rearwards for entry and then easily slid forward to close it. That'd ba a heck of a lot easier to do than whatthe video showed of fixing a fabric cover. With a sliding shell you could even start pedalling and THEN pull the rear part of the shell forward. Plus the shell would add protection to the person inside in the event of a fall or crash.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/14/2017 3:23 PM, DougC wrote:
>
> 3) if you are riding a bicycle at all, the most likely way you will get
> severely hurt or killed is by being hit by a motor vehicle. So trying to
> ride in urban areas--where motor vehicle traffic is concentrated higher
> than anywhere else--is kinda silly.

And yet, if you look at the data on bike share systems (which are used
almost only in urban areas) the safety record is astonishingly good. See
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/08/14/u_s_bike_share_programs_no_one_has_died_in_millions_of_rides.html

and
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2016/04/why-bike-share-is-really-very-safe/476316/

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I've wondered how stable those things are in gusting crosswinds. Any idea?



--
- Frank Krygowski

[DougC]

Which thing are you asking about?

The aversion to crosswinds from passing vehicles seems to be the main
reason that nobody made a 2-wheel street streamliner until Speedbikes did.

Also with velos (that are almost always tadpole trikes): they're a lot
more popular in Euro-land, and they make it much more easy to ride
comfortably in sub-freezing weather. If the pavement has a bit of snow
or ice on it, you can still safely ride a trike but not with a
2-wheeler. So that is another reason.

The body socks tend to have some give with crosswinds. Most people who
go this route just buy the front fairing already made and add the body
sock rear. A few people have built their own front fairings just for
body sock use and it can work a lot better if it extends nearly down to
the ground.

Velomobiles and tadpole trikes do tend to have stability issues at
times. The current trend is to use tadpole trikes that have 33%/33%/33%
weight distribution per wheel. If they suffer a rear flat tire at high
speeds, slowing to a stop without crashing can be very challenging.
Velos (with their big noses that stick out well in front of the front
axles) seem to be particularly susceptible to this problem.
Delta-configuration trikes and velos don't seem to have it, but are
comparatively rare in the high-performance market.

[Frank Krygowski]

I was asking about two-wheel streamliners, like the Peregrin.

Years ago, we briefly had a club member who rode a recumbent, to which
he had fitted a homemade full fairing. It was a pretty crude,
square-edged thing made (I think) of Coroplast, and he was a somewhat
odd guy.

Anyway, as we rode together on one invitational ride I was chatting with
him, asking questions about his bike. When I asked "Do crosswinds have
a bad effect on it?" or something similar, he got a bit irritated and
didn't answer.

> The aversion to crosswinds from passing vehicles seems to be the main
> reason that nobody made a 2-wheel street streamliner until Speedbikes did.
>
> Also with velos (that are almost always tadpole trikes): they're a lot
> more popular in Euro-land, and they make it much more easy to ride
> comfortably in sub-freezing weather. If the pavement has a bit of snow
> or ice on it, you can still safely ride a trike but not with a
> 2-wheeler. So that is another reason.
>
> The body socks tend to have some give with crosswinds. Most people who
> go this route just buy the front fairing already made and add the body
> sock rear. A few people have built their own front fairings just for
> body sock use and it can work a lot better if it extends nearly down to
> the ground.
>
> Velomobiles and tadpole trikes do tend to have stability issues at
> times. The current trend is to use tadpole trikes that have 33%/33%/33%
> weight distribution per wheel. If they suffer a rear flat tire at high
> speeds, slowing to a stop without crashing can be very challenging.
> Velos (with their big noses that stick out well in front of the front
> axles) seem to be particularly susceptible to this problem.
> Delta-configuration trikes and velos don't seem to have it, but are
> comparatively rare in the high-performance market.

The problem I've heard about with Deltas (vs. Tadpoles) is that if you
overcook the entrance to a turn, the tendency to brake and turn
simultaneously can get you in trouble, throwing weight too far forward
(so to speak). Also, I guess it's easier and cheaper to design two
wheel steering instead of two wheel power transmission, which requires a
differential gear.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Which is what I've been thinking about.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The designs are so varied that you can't say anything. The short wheelbase streamliners seem to be pretty unsteady but the longer wheelbase one, particularly with some suspension are pretty good from all accounts.

[DougC]

Yea but it has the same problem--lack of stiffness.
Any time you have a big section of the shell movable, then that whole
section cannot contribute to the overall stiffness. So that's why all
the higher-end velomobiles now use monocoque carbon-fiber bodies.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Now that is a rediculous statement. The entire bottom half of the shell should be reinforced carbon fiber with at least twice the stability of a normal CF bike.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Doug - my plan would be to build the bottom half and develop it to ride well without the top half. Then to build the front top half that would attach in some manner that both strengthened and allowed the front to come off so that you could service the drive mechanism and the wheels. Then the same with the rear quarter and then the cockpit cover.

Though this is maybe just a idea at this point. The streamliners I have seen on the Internet are built around more or less normal recumbents so you have twice the necessary weight and re-enforcement.

[Joerg]

If you do that make sure the bike can be ridden with the cockpit cover
retracted. I can't imagine it to be fun riding an enclosed "rolling
Zeppelin" when it is 105F while the sweat drops pool up in its bottom.
Unless they had a li'l "A/C" button.

> Though this is maybe just a idea at this point. The streamliners I
> have seen on the Internet are built around more or less normal
> recumbents so you have twice the necessary weight and
> re-enforcement.
>

I have seen some on the bike trails that just have a clear plastic
deflector at the front. It is aerodynamically shaped but I don't know
how close that ride will come to a real streamliner in performance.
Probably not very but the rider won't sweat so much in summer so will
have more available energy.

[Doug Landau]

I think that it is safe to say at least one thing:

>Also, having big airplane-style canopy windows means you boil in sunny/warm weather.

... and that is that this is an understatement; you are going to cook in all weather conditions. Put competitive cyclists on stationary bikes in the gym and they fall apart, I read. Until you put a fan in front of them. The cooling from airflow is an integral part of the system. This certainly lines up with my own experience and clothing preferences.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 5:45:19 PM UTC-4, Doug Landau wrote:
> On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 5:43:29 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

Snipped

> >Also, having big airplane-style canopy windows means you boil in sunny/warm weather.
>
> ... and that is that this is an understatement; you are going to cook in all weather conditions. Put competitive cyclists on stationary bikes in the gym and they fall apart, I read. Until you put a fan in front of them. The cooling from airflow is an integral part of the system. This certainly lines up with my own experience and clothing preferences.

Again the reply was misinterpreted. Whn I said "like an airplane canopy" I was refering the canopy on a WW2 fighter was pushed rearward to enter or exit the aircraft and then pulled forward to seal it. I was NOT refering to a completely enclosed recumbent bicycle design. The rear or front of the recumbent fairing would be on a rails or other guides an would be moved to allow ingress or egress of the rider and then closed once the bicycle was in motion. Very lightweight rails/slots could easily be incorporated into the design of the recumbent shell.

Then again you could have a hinged shell that opened up by pivoting forward then got pulled back down by the rider once the rider was on the recumbent.

Cheers

[John B Slocomb]

That would work. Engineered, perhaps with internal reinforcements to
support the weight and energy, and a very thin upper half simply for
streamlining. It probably would be rather expensive, but certainly
doable.

[John B Slocomb]

And the proof is, of course, .... that is how a boat is built :-)

Years ago I read an article, in bike magazine, about an English
engineer who commuted 50 miles to work and 50 miles home on a
streamlined recumbent, so apparently it is possible. It was a long
time ago but from memory he didn't own an automobile.

[John B Slocomb]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:06:01 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Why not? After all judicious ducting would provide a 30 MPH breeze :-)

I have ridden the last few kilometers home in a bit cooler weather,
say 95 C and it was a lot slower then 30mph but it was doable.

But again, who would want to. After all you got the two cars in the
garage both with the air-con. Too hot, just take the car.

>
>> Though this is maybe just a idea at this point. The streamliners I
>> have seen on the Internet are built around more or less normal
>> recumbents so you have twice the necessary weight and
>> re-enforcement.
>>
>
>I have seen some on the bike trails that just have a clear plastic
>deflector at the front. It is aerodynamically shaped but I don't know
>how close that ride will come to a real streamliner in performance.
>Probably not very but the rider won't sweat so much in summer so will
>have more available energy.

Way back when, road racing motorcycles first used a rather small
fairing on the front which did, I believe, improve performance as they
very rapidly increased the size and coverage.

To be honest, I've always wondered why a fairing wasn't more common on
bicycles. It would be light and certainly small changes in drag is
very significant on a bicycle.

[AMuzi]

Well, it's not as if they don't exist:
http://www.zzipper.com/

and with a long history of 'prior art' too:
http://www.poziome.republika.pl/historia_obrazki.htm

But then again, just like your tin of alcohol, slow moving
items reduce ROI and so get no shelf space.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 11:29:54 PM UTC-4, John B Slocomb wrote:
Snipped

>
> Why not? After all judicious ducting would provide a 30 MPH breeze :-)
>
> I have ridden the last few kilometers home in a bit cooler weather,
> say 95 C and it was a lot slower then 30mph but it was doable.
>
> But again, who would want to. After all you got the two cars in the
> garage both with the air-con. Too hot, just take the car.
>

I think that the C is a typo and you meant 95 F? ;<) After all 95 C is 203 F and that's a bit hot to be riding anything.

A fairing shell could have longitudinal ribs for stiffness without being too heave and as you mention you could even design in cooling vents.

Cheers

[Joerg]

On 2017-04-18 06:33, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 11:29:54 PM UTC-4, John B Slocomb
> wrote: Snipped
>>
>> Why not? After all judicious ducting would provide a 30 MPH breeze
>> :-)
>>

http://www.bicycling.com/sites/bicycling.com/files/articles/2016/06/steep-climbs-up.jpg

Maintaining 30mph here could be a wee challenge :-)

>> I have ridden the last few kilometers home in a bit cooler
>> weather, say 95 C and it was a lot slower then 30mph but it was
>> doable.
>>
>> But again, who would want to. After all you got the two cars in
>> the garage both with the air-con. Too hot, just take the car.
>>
>
> I think that the C is a typo and you meant 95 F? ;<) After all 95 C
> is 203 F and that's a bit hot to be riding anything.
>
> A fairing shell could have longitudinal ribs for stiffness without
> being too heave and as you mention you could even design in cooling
> vents.
>

Won't work well in our area when on the way back home, requiring 1200ft
net altitude gain plus lots of up and down. The valley is where most
errand rides go.

One could maybe use a small fan as long as there is a central battery
for lights and it is large enough. Many stationary bikes like ours have
built-in fans.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/17/2017 11:29 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:
>
>
> Way back when, road racing motorcycles first used a rather small
> fairing on the front which did, I believe, improve performance as they
> very rapidly increased the size and coverage.
>
> To be honest, I've always wondered why a fairing wasn't more common on
> bicycles. It would be light and certainly small changes in drag is
> very significant on a bicycle.

When my interest in bicycle aerodynamics was at its peak, I had a
Zzipper fairing that I occasionally used on my bike. It was essentially
a thin clear polycarbonate hemisphere about two feet in diameter,
mounted via brackets hooked over the brake levers. I used it mostly
during cold weather commutes.

It wasn't very heavy (maybe a pound?) and added a tiny bit of top speed.
IIRC, that was easy to see on the long downhill into the valley. The
manufacturer claimed it worked best if you were in a racing crouch,
putting your ears at about the level of the top of the fairing. It also
kept me noticeably warmer in really cold weather.

Downsides? It gave a quiet rumble sound over any road roughness at all,
it made the bike harder to carry in and out of doorways, and harder to
lean against a wall. But most of all, it just didn't make all that much
difference. As with the disc spoke covers on the rear wheel, the aero
water bottle, the oval cross section spokes, etc. I decided it wasn't
worth much trouble.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Until one day the luck runs out ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz9hP81_7kQ

> Years ago I read an article, in bike magazine, about an English
> engineer who commuted 50 miles to work and 50 miles home on a
> streamlined recumbent, so apparently it is possible. It was a long
> time ago but from memory he didn't own an automobile.
>

This is an interesting streamliner commute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jePRQoWyMz4

He is lucky that he didn't get a speeding ticket.

[John B Slocomb]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 06:33:48 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 11:29:54 PM UTC-4, John B Slocomb wrote:
>Snipped
>>
>> Why not? After all judicious ducting would provide a 30 MPH breeze :-)
>>
>> I have ridden the last few kilometers home in a bit cooler weather,
>> say 95 C and it was a lot slower then 30mph but it was doable.
>>
>> But again, who would want to. After all you got the two cars in the
>> garage both with the air-con. Too hot, just take the car.
>>
>
>I think that the C is a typo and you meant 95 F? ;<) After all 95 C is 203 F and that's a bit hot to be riding anything.
>

Yes :-( it was. I converted 105 to Celsius and then converted 35 (C)
to Fahrenheit and then typed "C". Mia Culpa.

>A fairing shell could have longitudinal ribs for
stiffness without being too heave and as you mention you could even
design in cooling vents.
>
>Cheers

I once built a kayak with "U" shaped formers and longitudinal
stringers and covered with canvas. It would carry three kids and you
cold pick it up with one hand (if you grunted a little :-)

[John B Slocomb]

Exactly. It costs money to maintain inventory. Something Joerg doesn't
seem to realize. If it doesn't move then have a sale and get rid of it
(hopefully at the wholesale cost) and stock something that does sell.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I didn't see any speed limit signs meaning his limit was 110 kph.

[Joerg]

He blew through a 60km/h sign while above 80km/h AFAICS. In Europe that
usually results in an entry on your driving record if caught.

They even gave me a speeding ticket on a bicycle (!) in a 30km/h zone
where I was certainly not at 40km/h. Early 80's, cost me 20 Deutschmarks
but was low enough not to go on the record.

[Joerg]

That is the philosophy of a simple sales guy or a short-sighted bean
counter. They come and go and nobody remembers them anymore.

I run a successful business for decades and my philosophy is different.
Customer service is key. A bean counter would tell me that it does not
make sense to keep lab equipment like a logic analyzer or stock of rare
long leadtime electronics parts that I won't need for years. The proof
that their philosophy is poor came once again two weeks ago. A client
had a line-stop in production because units started to fail final
testing, a nightmare for the executives at a manufacturer. Using that
analyzer and some parts allowed me to find the root cause very quickly
instead of weeks later after some long-leadtime parts are finally
delivered here.

The bike shop owner where I bought my MTB shares that philosophy, else I
would have bought it online for $100 less. When the saddle broke he had
a nice WTB saddle in stock. It's been there for many months, I could
quickly try it out and next day I could ride again. That was not a
profitable item for him. However, I steered two people to him to buy
bicycles there and he does not sell cheap low-margin bikes. That is what
I call a successful business strategy.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Under general riding conditions weight is far more important than aerodynamic drag. This is why we are now seeing 12 lb bicycles.

If you watch that LONG commute into town with the very high speeds occasionally he then mentions that his average commute speed downhill on that bike is only 40 kph or 24 mph. Since that is largely downhill you could probably get very close to that average speed on an upright.

The development of a practical streamliner would require a great deal of thought. Certainly his streamliner is severely limited because of the road conditions and his total lack of suspension.

Frictional tire drag would have to be considered. You cannot stop along the road to fix a flat.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

He also blew right through a stop light and scared the bejesus out of a pedestrian. That's worth more than an entry in your driving record.

You were speaking of bicycle facilities: looking at the highway overpasses I noted that they had stairways and not a smooth roadway to use to cross to the other side of the highway. And yet that was on a bicycle pathway.

[DougC]

On 4/18/2017 7:40 AM, AMuzi wrote:
...

>
> Well, it's not as if they don't exist:
> http://www.zzipper.com/
>
> and with a long history of 'prior art' too:
> http://www.poziome.republika.pl/historia_obrazki.htm
>
> But then again, just like your tin of alcohol, slow moving items reduce
> ROI and so get no shelf space.
>

There is two long-time companies AFAIK making these things--zzipper and
windwrap:
http://t-cycle.com/windwrap-fairings-c-68/

The two products are comparable and pretty close in price. If you have a
particular recumbent model, online peeples may claim that a certain
model from one of the two companies fits better than the other one.

The main reason that people desire the clear polycarbonate fairings is
because you can mount lights behind them, tho others note that you may
get odd reflections off the inside surface at night that is less than
ideal. Normally the fairing is not mounted high enough to directly block
the user's head, so windshield wipers wouldn't be of any benefit.
,,,
In Euro-land bicycle lighting is more strict and you aren't allowed to
mount bicycle lights behind unapproved lenses. So most velomobiles (that
are made somewhere in western Europe) tend to have holes in them that
are fitted with lighting already.

Also we note: Easy Racer sells a couple different fairings for their own
Tour Easy model. There is a newer one now that has a little window in
the top, but the original one was all-carbon-fiber (the $595 one):
http://yhst-47247727169818.stores.yahoo.net/fairings.html

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 11:13:07 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-04-18 20:04, John B Slocomb wrote:

Snipped

Many brick and mortar bicycle shops are NOT in areas that have enough bicyclists forthe shop to try and stock every little thing someone MIGHT need. Attempting to dod so can result in too much UNSOLD/NON_MOVING stock which can lead to bankruptcy and/or closure due to not being able to meet the bills. Inventory costs money and if it's not moving then the shop has a lot of money tierd up in useless to them stock. Far better to get rid of that stock and carry something that does sell. Don't forget that shops are now competing with online ordering which means they are even less likely to have a lot of things as stock items.

The rule of inventory is that the one item you DON'T have is the one a customer wants.

I don't think Joerg understands a lot about bicycles or bicycle shop operation.

Cheers

Cheers

[Joerg]

On 2017-04-19 08:29, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 8:01:07 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-04-19 07:30, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 11:23:55 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-04-17 20:29, John B Slocomb wrote:

[...]

>>>>> Years ago I read an article, in bike magazine, about an
>>>>> English engineer who commuted 50 miles to work and 50 miles
>>>>> home on a streamlined recumbent, so apparently it is
>>>>> possible. It was a long time ago but from memory he didn't
>>>>> own an automobile.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is an interesting streamliner commute:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jePRQoWyMz4
>>>>
>>>> He is lucky that he didn't get a speeding ticket.
>>>>
>>>> -- Regards, Joerg
>>>>
>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>>
>>> I didn't see any speed limit signs meaning his limit was 110
>>> kph.
>>>
>>
>> He blew through a 60km/h sign while above 80km/h AFAICS. In Europe
>> that usually results in an entry on your driving record if caught.
>>
>> They even gave me a speeding ticket on a bicycle (!) in a 30km/h
>> zone where I was certainly not at 40km/h. Early 80's, cost me 20
>> Deutschmarks but was low enough not to go on the record.
>>
>> -- Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> He also blew right through a stop light and scared the bejesus out of
> a pedestrian. That's worth more than an entry in your driving
> record.
>

Lots of cyclists do that. I almost hit one shortly after we moved here.
Blew a stops sign in the dead of night, _no_ lighting whatsoever, no
reflectors.

> You were speaking of bicycle facilities: looking at the highway
> overpasses I noted that they had stairways and not a smooth roadway
> to use to cross to the other side of the highway. And yet that was on
> a bicycle pathway.
>

For a serious mountain biker stairs are not an obstacle at all :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJkTal4a2X4

I became so used to hard obstacles on the MTB that I sometimes just
blast across and then the rider following me almost crashes and chews me
out for not alerting that there was a curb or whatever.

[Frank Krygowski]

Andrew hasn't commented on inventory, has he?

Seems to me his marketing plan is far different from the shops that
cater to whatever is advertised this month.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

I did comment. I was the one who noted that dead or slow
items can't justify their shelf space against ROI.

That said, a shop not far from me:
https://hostelshoppe.com/

stocks things your average bike shop wouldn't touch. And he
sells healthy numbers too. He's an expert in his specialty
field, an industry in some ways similar to but in some ways
very different from my own.

[Sir Ridesalot]

I think that Andrew's shop; is not your average small b icycle shop. The smaller shops simply can NOT afford to have a lot of money tied up in inverntory that doesn't move very fast or move at all.

Unfortunately not having a lot of stuff on hand can be a liability too if the shop has to order it. A lot of timesthe customer simply orders the stuff online and has it delivered to their home or place of work.

There's a shop here in town that's pretty good but is 26 kilometers away from where I am. If I go there and they don't have what I want it's about a week for them to get it IF their supplier has it. Meantime I can order the thing online and have delivered to me and avoid a 52 kilometers long ride through town to pick up the I ordered things from the bike shop. Maybe this is why the one shop closed and another changes owners every few years? These shops are just to small to stock everything or even most things bicyclsits might want.

Cheers

[John B Slocomb]

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 08:13:12 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

You talk below about all the service that you give yadda, yadda. But
did you have, oh say, $100,000 in inventory laying in the warehouse,
gathering dust? And maybe a, oh say, $75,000 credit line at the
bank.... which they were rather interested in you repaying in a timely
manner

To be frank, if you view economics as some sort of a short sighted
bean counter sort of thing then one of two things. One you simply
don't know what you are talking about, or two, you are some sort of
wage slave who shows up at nine in the morning and leaves at five in
the afternoon and queues up for his pay on Friday.

Or maybe you are going to tell us that you operate out of your hip
pocket and pay cash for all your business transactions? You must
either be exceedingly rich or exceedingly small time.

[John B Slocomb]

My LBS, in Bangkok, is probably the largest bike shop(s) in the city
and have been pretty much since the guy started the business. They
stock what sells. Their stock is computerized and they know that
"these items" they haven't sold in a year and "those items" they are
selling 10 a day. They simply don't re-order any more "These items".

The Shimano agent in Bangkok doesn't stock wheel parts, rims, spokes,
hubs, any more. I asked him why and he tells me ":nobody buys that
kind of stuff any more".

Both the Shimano dealer and my LBS have been in business for quite a
while and from the real estate they are sitting on pretty successful.

But of course there are what might be called "no inventory", or
"service" businesses. The kid with the snow shovel that comes around
after the big snow storm. "Shovel you driver way, sir?" A very limited
inventory - his dad's shovel. :-)

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/19/2017 5:54 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> I think that Andrew's shop; is not your average small b icycle shop. The smaller shops simply can NOT afford to have a lot of money tied up in inverntory that doesn't move very fast or move at all.
>
> Unfortunately not having a lot of stuff on hand can be a liability too if the shop has to order it. A lot of timesthe customer simply orders the stuff online and has it delivered to their home or place of work.

I've enjoyed a couple visits to this shop in Pittsburgh:
http://www.post-gazette.com/business/pittsburgh-company-news/2016/11/06/Kraynick-s-a-unique-bike-shop-in-Garfield-to-change-hands-but-not-attitude-pittsburgh/stories/201610270246

It's in an ancient narrow building, incredibly cluttered. At the back
of the main floor are workstations where people are doing their own bike
repairs. There are drawers and drawers of bike parts of all vintages.
Super-narrow stairs (they MUST be code violations!) take you up one
floor, then up another, through I-forget-how-many floors. Small rooms
contain just all sorts of stuff - dozens of NOS bike frames, posters,
water bottles, once-fashionable accessories.

This shop has lots of inventory that I'm sure nobody would ever buy.
But it sounds like his real estate cost is near zero, and I suspect this
shop has been exactly what he wants to do with all his time.

BTW, when I built up my custom frame, retro-tech 3 speed, none of the
three forks I happened to have on hand would fit. I bought a fork from
Kraynick's. I think it cost me $7.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 4/19/2017 9:52 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 14:54:20 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 4:55:55 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/19/2017 3:37 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 11:13:07 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-04-18 20:04, John B Slocomb wrote:

>>>> Snipped

-more snip-

> But of course there are what might be called "no inventory", or
> "service" businesses. The kid with the snow shovel that comes around
> after the big snow storm. "Shovel you driver way, sir?" A very limited
> inventory - his dad's shovel. :-)

I'm not an expert on Thai tax and accounting practices but
in most of the world a snow shoveler's snow shovel is 'tools
and fixtures' and expenseable if worn out within some
shortish period. A large number of snow shovels or an
exceptionally durable snow shovel is magically proclaimed a
depreciable asset with a short or long schedule assigned.
Can't be inventory in any case.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The problem with this is that you drive your customers to buy on line and that's a habit that's hard to break. Since you don't move many of this or that you have to charge a great deal more for it than they can get on-line.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

When I was racing motorcycles the shop I worked in when I was between engineering jobs stocked EVERYTHING down to individual nuts and bolts and lock washers.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Campy doesn't even MAKE any more wheel parts after a particular wheel is discontinued.

[Joerg]

On 2017-04-19 19:52, John B Slocomb wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 08:13:12 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-04-18 20:04, John B Slocomb wrote:
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 07:40:56 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/17/2017 10:29 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:06:01 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2017-04-17 11:06, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 11:01:04 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com
>>>>>>> wrote:

[...]

Pretty much. When you do work in analog electronics and want to provide
really good service that is almost inevitable. Now this is all quite old
but it has brought steady business. Which was the goal. Programmers have
it easier because they just need a PC but, therefore, they also have a
lot more competition.

The downside is that now that the stuff is really older and there is
hardly a market for it I may not be able to sell it. However, the ROI on
it was great. I have already donated some of it, hoping there will be
engineers who step in when us guys leave planet earth some day.

> To be frank, if you view economics as some sort of a short sighted
> bean counter sort of thing then one of two things. One you simply
> don't know what you are talking about, or two, you are some sort of
> wage slave who shows up at nine in the morning and leaves at five in
> the afternoon and queues up for his pay on Friday.
>

Both wrong. If you head read more carefully what I wrote you'd know that
I ran a successful business for decades.

> Or maybe you are going to tell us that you operate out of your hip
> pocket and pay cash for all your business transactions? You must
> either be exceedingly rich or exceedingly small time.
>

Neither. I made a calculated decision about 30 years ago and that turned
out to be a good decision. Yes, it was tough back then. However, my
business was steady and didn't come and go like cheapskate sales outlets.

[jbeattie]

On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 8:05:34 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

<snip>

> > I did comment. I was the one who noted that dead or slow
> > items can't justify their shelf space against ROI.
> >
> > That said, a shop not far from me:
> > https://hostelshoppe.com/
> >
> > stocks things your average bike shop wouldn't touch. And he
> > sells healthy numbers too. He's an expert in his specialty
> > field, an industry in some ways similar to but in some ways
> > very different from my own.
> >
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> The problem with this is that you drive your customers to buy on line and that's a habit that's hard to break. Since you don't move many of this or that you have to charge a great deal more for it than they can get on-line.

That is true, but then again, all shops cannot be all things to all people. In Portland, we have a lot of bike shops. https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/article/71973 (doesn't list Western Bikeworks second location or the multiple REI and Performance locations). Many of them specialize. We have a recumbent shop, a "commuter" shop, a Bohemian bike shop with a bazillion Bromptons. http://clevercycles.com/bicycles/folding Much of what you see over at Clever Cycles isn't even available on line in the US.

Anyway, what is dead stock in one store may move elsewhere in town, and customers generally know that or should know that. Sales people in one Portland store often refer customers to another store for oddball items like dyno lights or leather bags, tweed saddles, etc., etc.

The internet is more a problem for sellers who do have the stock but get under-priced. Wholesale pricing through QBP for some parts can be higher than retail from PBK, particularly when it comes to Shimano parts. Some of my LBSs are internet sellers and will price match, but they can take the loss/low margin only because they move so much volume on line. Small shops can't do that.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B Slocomb]

Not too many Thais here shoveling snow :-)

Equipment can usually be viewed as expendable and depreciated over a
reasonable lifetime but on the other hand it might be viewed as an
asset if it was necessary to perform some task. No shovel, no job :-)

I suspect that an oversupply of shovels, stored in the warehouse,
would be considered as stock in hand and would be considered a an
asset until such time as it snows.

[John B Slocomb]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 08:12:29 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

"Business" is a very flexible word but essentially means (more or less
) the activity of providing goods and services in return for pay.

Thus, you are in the business of providing a service in return for
payment. A store is in the business of providing material objects in
return for payment.

The difference is that the Serviceman needs only the equipment
necessary to accomplish the task he is hired to do. The kid next door
and his snow shovel in one discussion. The Storekeeper on the other
hand has to purchase and store everything that he plans to sell.

Thus the Serviceman with his limited inventory of equipment that
usually remain useful for a long periods of time is not normally
concerned with inventory although I remember electronics shops turning
down jobs because it would require buying test instruments that they
did not normally use.

The Storekeeper, on the other hand, can only receive payment for
material that he has previously purchased and stored in his warehouse,
and that material is costing him money either in interest payment if
he borrowed the money to purchase the goods or in lost interest if he
had to take the money out of the bank to pay for it.

As for service. Well, you undoubtedly own some sort of volt meter. Are
you prepared, to drive to Oakland to determine whether the batteries
in someone's flashlight should be changed? And charge a fee
commensurate with the service? Probably not, so you are not prepared
to provide every service.

As the stocking of inventory actually does cost the Storekeeper money
management of inventory becomes a (sometimes) critical factor in his
ability to remain in business. This is important enough the innovative
Japanese companies developed the "zero inventory" systems where
warehouse inventory is limited to only a few days usage.

In short, your scheme of a storekeeper that has every nut, bolt and
washer, for every bicycle every sold in the U.S. is impossible just as
it is impossible that you will drive to Oakland to check the batteries
in someone's flashlight.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Joerg - analog designers are rare. I know exactly one of them after 50 years in the business. Charley Butten. He won an Emmy in 2014 I believe for his work on sound systems that wouldn't return echoes on outdoor venues for the wild bands of the 70's and 80's.

So if you're a good analog designer it's no wonder that you've had steady employment.

I'm an embedded system designer and programmer. They have a LOT of people that claim to be such but hardly anyone that actually knows what they are doing. But they make up for it by using 10 times the power to do the same work I would. That is why there are so many people around today that appear to be successful.

[Joerg]

On 2017-04-20 20:21, John B Slocomb wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 08:12:29 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-04-19 19:52, John B Slocomb wrote:

[...]

>>> Or maybe you are going to tell us that you operate out of your hip
>>> pocket and pay cash for all your business transactions? You must
>>> either be exceedingly rich or exceedingly small time.
>>>
>>
>> Neither. I made a calculated decision about 30 years ago and that turned
>> out to be a good decision. Yes, it was tough back then. However, my
>> business was steady and didn't come and go like cheapskate sales outlet
>
> "Business" is a very flexible word but essentially means (more or less
> ) the activity of providing goods and services in return for pay.
>
> Thus, you are in the business of providing a service in return for
> payment. A store is in the business of providing material objects in
> return for payment.
>

A good bike shop has service as a significant percentage of their
revenue. My LBS sells bikes _and_ services them, as well as bikes not
bought there.

> The difference is that the Serviceman needs only the equipment
> necessary to accomplish the task he is hired to do. The kid next door
> and his snow shovel in one discussion. The Storekeeper on the other
> hand has to purchase and store everything that he plans to sell.
>

Not true. Just like I need a lot of parts stock in my lab a bicycle
service shop cannot tell every customer "Well, that'll be a couple of
weeks because I've got to order almost all the parts".

> Thus the Serviceman with his limited inventory of equipment that
> usually remain useful for a long periods of time is not normally
> concerned with inventory although I remember electronics shops turning
> down jobs because it would require buying test instruments that they
> did not normally use.
>

That goes for the lawn care guy but not for a serious repair shop. It's
hard to earn a living in the field of non-inventory simple service folks
because everybody and their brother does it.

> The Storekeeper, on the other hand, can only receive payment for
> material that he has previously purchased and stored in his warehouse,
> and that material is costing him money either in interest payment if
> he borrowed the money to purchase the goods or in lost interest if he
> had to take the money out of the bank to pay for it.
>
> As for service. Well, you undoubtedly own some sort of volt meter. Are
> you prepared, to drive to Oakland to determine whether the batteries
> in someone's flashlight should be changed? And charge a fee
> commensurate with the service? Probably not, so you are not prepared
> to provide every service.
>
> As the stocking of inventory actually does cost the Storekeeper money
> management of inventory becomes a (sometimes) critical factor in his
> ability to remain in business. This is important enough the innovative
> Japanese companies developed the "zero inventory" systems where
> warehouse inventory is limited to only a few days usage.
>
> In short, your scheme of a storekeeper that has every nut, bolt and
> washer, for every bicycle every sold in the U.S. is impossible just as
> it is impossible that you will drive to Oakland to check the batteries
> in someone's flashlight.
>

The best proof that this is not impossible is this store:

http://www.onlyinyourstate.com/northern-california/oldest-general-store-norcal/

It is about as old as the State of California. They've got just about
everything conceivable in there. Whenever I have a project where even
one part looks like it might be tough to procure I immediately shun the
local stores and head out there, then buy everything I need there.
Luckily it can be reached by bike. About 35mi round trip but you need a
sturdy MTB to get to Placerville. Once when I needed hinges from a
manufacturer that went belly-up in the 70's I was sure nobody would have
any. At Placerville Hardware one of the clerks said "Let me check the
attic". Sure enough she came back with several dusty small boxes. I
could not believe it. "How many do you want?".

I knew a previous owner, Frank Fausel, until he passed away at 102-1/2.
Great guy and he knew how to really run a business. He taught his son
who ran it later, who in turn taught his grandson who runs it now. Oh,
and if have a desire to step back into 1850 and do some gold panning,
yep, they still got the stuff you need for that. In fall they also sell
delicious pears and apples from their family farm.

Online it's similar. When I need to replenish specialty parts there are
three large online dealers which carry almost any electronics part,
including lots of "slow movers". Plus two other places for mechanical
engineering. I do not have time to find out who has what and cobble
together 4-5 orders. Therefore, I just place the complete order at one
of those "We've got it all" places and be done with it. All other
engineers I know do the same. You might not believe it but these
distributors are all profitable since decades. The Placerville Hardware
Store since centuries.

[Joerg]

On 2017-04-21 07:39, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 8:12:26 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-04-19 19:52, John B Slocomb wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> Or maybe you are going to tell us that you operate out of your
>>> hip pocket and pay cash for all your business transactions? You
>>> must either be exceedingly rich or exceedingly small time.
>>>
>>
>> Neither. I made a calculated decision about 30 years ago and that
>> turned out to be a good decision. Yes, it was tough back then.
>> However, my business was steady and didn't come and go like
>> cheapskate sales outlets.
>
> Joerg - analog designers are rare. I know exactly one of them after
> 50 years in the business. Charley Butten. He won an Emmy in 2014 I
> believe for his work on sound systems that wouldn't return echoes on
> outdoor venues for the wild bands of the 70's and 80's.
>

The good old days ...

http://www.clearcom.com/news/clear-com-wins-big-with-two-tech-emmys

> So if you're a good analog designer it's no wonder that you've had
> steady employment.
>

Yep, can't complain. However, now I'd like to slow down and have more
time to ride before some ailment creeps up that won't allow me to ride.
I don't want to be one of those guys who migrates from a 60h week
straight to a walker.

Many analog gurus have either passed on or are in assisted living homes now.

> I'm an embedded system designer and programmer. They have a LOT of
> people that claim to be such but hardly anyone that actually knows
> what they are doing. But they make up for it by using 10 times the
> power to do the same work I would. That is why there are so many
> people around today that appear to be successful.
>

Embedded is tough as well because to be truly successful one has to be a
good generalist. Similar to us analog guys. For one job I had to learn
and really understand hwo turbofan jet engines work. Somehow we didn't
have that at the university ...

[Doug Landau]

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 3:07:26 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 5:45:19 PM UTC-4, Doug Landau wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 5:43:29 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Snipped

> > >Also, having big airplane-style canopy windows means you boil in sunny/warm weather.
> >

> > ... and that is that this is an understatement; you are going to cook in all weather conditions. Put competitive cyclists on stationary bikes in the gym and they fall apart, I read. Until you put a fan in front of them. The cooling from airflow is an integral part of the system. This certainly lines up with my own experience and clothing preferences.
>
> Again the reply was misinterpreted. Whn I said "like an airplane canopy" I was refering the canopy on a WW2 fighter was pushed rearward to enter or exit the aircraft and then pulled forward to seal it. I was NOT refering to a completely enclosed recumbent bicycle design. The rear or front of the recumbent fairing would be on a rails or other guides an would be moved to allow ingress or egress of the rider and then closed once the bicycle was in motion. Very lightweight rails/slots could easily be incorporated into the design of the recumbent shell.
>
> Then again you could have a hinged shell that opened up by pivoting forward then got pulled back down by the rider once the rider was on the recumbent.

Huh?!? I am not saying anything about canopies. I'm saying the whole concept of an streamlined, enclosed bike is fundamentaly flawed to begin with and won't work and not for any of the reasons being discussed. Problems with getting in and out, stability in crosswinds, and rigidity will all fall by the wayside as the rider gets drenched in sweat and sapped of strength. The very act of streamlining takes away cooling airflow, which has crippling effects on the rider, and restoring airflow with vents is accomplished by undoing the streamlining.

[DougC]

On 4/21/2017 12:02 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 3:07:26 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> Huh?!? I am not saying anything about canopies. I'm saying the whole concept of an streamlined, enclosed bike is fundamentaly flawed to begin with and won't work and not for any of the reasons being discussed. Problems with getting in and out, stability in crosswinds, and rigidity will all fall by the wayside as the rider gets drenched in sweat and sapped of strength. The very act of streamlining takes away cooling airflow, which has crippling effects on the rider, and restoring airflow with vents is accomplished by undoing the streamlining.
>

Well now, there are a lot of people doing it tho--so to claim it can't
be done is kinda silly. It's just that the methods that someone not
familiar with velomobiles might imagine, are often not real practical in
use. Velos all have adjustable cooling vents built-in, and owners report
that hot-weather use isn't much of a problem.

I do think that people (even velo people!) tend to become preoccupied
with the concept of making something that is "car-like": something solid
and enclosed, and with some degree of crash and theft protection--and
that simply isn't possible. It ends up way too heavy to function well.
Much of the body shells of the carbon velomobiles are made of only a
single layer of lighter-weight CF cloth; you can push on it slightly
with your pinky finger and see it flex.

The carbon-fiber monocoque designs are modeled after racing HPVs and
aren't real suitable for general use IMO. They're very light-weight
(which is great) but they're also the most expensive, most-fragile and
most-difficult-to-repair methods around.

One method I like is a trike or bike with a fairing similar to how WW1
planes were built: a fabric cover stretched tight over a stringer
supporting frame. The stringers are easier to build with and could break
down for shipping and would be easily individually replaceable if any
one of them broke. You could have a small composite nose cone if you
desired, but most of the body would not be built that way.
I've seen a few home-builts this way but it's not been a big trend yet.

Another idea I've had is to make an inflatable body. This directly
avoids the one problem that is common with home-built composite
shells--that being, excessive shell weight, leading to cracking at the
mounting points where the body is bolted to the trike. Lots and lots and
lots of people have spend the $$$ to build pretty nice-looking CF
bodies, only to suffer this very issue over and over because the shell
weight ended up too heavy (and adding mounting point reinforcement adds
even more weight!)....
------
This inflatable body would not be stiff enough for 70+ MPH use, but it
could work well enough at 35 I'd think, which is still well above the
speeds you'd reach without it. It would also be extremely lightweight,
since the rigidity comes from the inflation pressure and not the
physical stiffness of the materials used. If the inflatable was made
with latex rubber and thin cloth, then you could repair punctures with
the tube patches you (may) already be carrying.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/21/2017 12:35 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-04-20 20:21, John B Slocomb wrote:
>>
>> In short, your scheme of a storekeeper that has every nut, bolt and
>> washer, for every bicycle every sold in the U.S. is impossible just as
>> it is impossible that you will drive to Oakland to check the batteries
>> in someone's flashlight.
>>
>
> The best proof that this is not impossible is this store:
>
> http://www.onlyinyourstate.com/northern-california/oldest-general-store-norcal/
>
>
> It is about as old as the State of California. They've got just about
> everything conceivable in there.

The fact that they write a special interest story about that place
indicates it's very, very unusual, Joerg. So is Kraynick's Bicycle Shop
that I mentioned earlier, which is also unusual enough to generate
similar stories.

Those enterprises work for owners who love running them so much that
they dedicate their life to them, and who don't require as much income
as most people. They will always be unusual, for reasons most people
cab easily understand.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

For the record, I've also wondered about inflatable shells for
velomobiles. That probably means someone is working on a design right
now.

IME, ideas like this float around in the ether until several people grab
them. If the idea's any good, someone runs with it.

But not me. I'm retired.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B Slocomb]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:35:12 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

wrote:

>On 2017-04-20 20:21, John B Slocomb wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 08:12:29 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-04-19 19:52, John B Slocomb wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>>> Or maybe you are going to tell us that you operate out of your hip
>>>> pocket and pay cash for all your business transactions? You must
>>>> either be exceedingly rich or exceedingly small time.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Neither. I made a calculated decision about 30 years ago and that turned
>>> out to be a good decision. Yes, it was tough back then. However, my
>>> business was steady and didn't come and go like cheapskate sales outlet
>>
>> "Business" is a very flexible word but essentially means (more or less
>> ) the activity of providing goods and services in return for pay.
>>
>> Thus, you are in the business of providing a service in return for
>> payment. A store is in the business of providing material objects in
>> return for payment.
>>
>
>A good bike shop has service as a significant percentage of their
>revenue. My LBS sells bikes _and_ services them, as well as bikes not
>bought there.

I wonder about the percentage of income generated by (1) sale of
material, and(2) sale of services. I'm not in the retail business but
it does seem to me that normal markup must be in the neighborhood of
30%.

When I was in the consulting business we had to charge nearly double
the consultant's salary just to break even - salary, living costs,
transportation costs, allowance for annual vacation, insurance,
medical, etc.

It would appear to me hat if one paid a bike mechanic $10/hour that
one's billing to equate to profit on parts would have to be in the
neighborhood of $26/hour.

I have idea whether one can get sufficient work at $26/hour, or part
there of, to generate a profit, but in my youth I worked weekends in a
service station greasing cars and changing oil. I know that we billed
the price of the oil in the can for an oil change so to the station my
wages were simply an additional expense.

>> The difference is that the Serviceman needs only the equipment
>> necessary to accomplish the task he is hired to do. The kid next door
>> and his snow shovel in one discussion. The Storekeeper on the other
>> hand has to purchase and store everything that he plans to sell.
>>
>
>Not true. Just like I need a lot of parts stock in my lab a bicycle
>service shop cannot tell every customer "Well, that'll be a couple of
>weeks because I've got to order almost all the parts".

What's not true? That a shop selling parts doesn't need to keep aid
parts in the warehouse? You are being over simplistic, or you don't
understand what is going on. Fixing a bicycle entails two basic
things. The service (labour) involved and the supply of parts. So the
bicycle fixing business entails both service and supply of material.

>
>
>> Thus the Serviceman with his limited inventory of equipment that
>> usually remain useful for a long periods of time is not normally
>> concerned with inventory although I remember electronics shops turning
>> down jobs because it would require buying test instruments that they
>> did not normally use.
>>
>
>That goes for the lawn care guy but not for a serious repair shop. It's
>hard to earn a living in the field of non-inventory simple service folks
>because everybody and their brother does it.
>

Ah, you have grasped the concept. Now then, how does one maintain the
inventory of spares without it costing you money.

The fact that a shop does or does not maintain an inventory has
nothing to do with the fact that it costs money to maintain an
inventory.

>
>I knew a previous owner, Frank Fausel, until he passed away at 102-1/2.
>Great guy and he knew how to really run a business. He taught his son
>who ran it later, who in turn taught his grandson who runs it now. Oh,
>and if have a desire to step back into 1850 and do some gold panning,
>yep, they still got the stuff you need for that. In fall they also sell
>delicious pears and apples from their family farm.
>
>Online it's similar. When I need to replenish specialty parts there are
>three large online dealers which carry almost any electronics part,
>including lots of "slow movers". Plus two other places for mechanical
>engineering. I do not have time to find out who has what and cobble
>together 4-5 orders. Therefore, I just place the complete order at one
>of those "We've got it all" places and be done with it. All other
>engineers I know do the same. You might not believe it but these
>distributors are all profitable since decades. The Placerville Hardware
>Store since centuries.

So what? There are a great many businesses which stock parts and sell
parts which has nothing to do with the cost of stocking parts.

Amazon, on the other hand does not stock parts nor does Alibaba and
I'd guess that both of them has lower costs and higher profits then
your 3rd generation shop keeper.

[AMuzi]

The popular press gives a healthy amount of ink every time
Amazon opens yet one more of these:

http://www.josic.com/wp-content/uploads/huge-amazon-warehouse-650x300.jpg

[John B Slocomb]

I'm amazed. I don't buy stuff from Amazon but I do use their on line
site to check prices quite often and I had noticed that everything I
looked at had a sub-note saying "Supplied by William J.Smith
Bicycles", or some such thing. Thus my assumption that they didn't
stock stuff.

[Joerg]

On 2017-04-21 16:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/21/2017 12:35 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-04-20 20:21, John B Slocomb wrote:
>>>
>>> In short, your scheme of a storekeeper that has every nut, bolt and
>>> washer, for every bicycle every sold in the U.S. is impossible just as
>>> it is impossible that you will drive to Oakland to check the batteries
>>> in someone's flashlight.
>>>
>>
>> The best proof that this is not impossible is this store:
>>
>> http://www.onlyinyourstate.com/northern-california/oldest-general-store-norcal/
>>
>>
>> It is about as old as the State of California. They've got just about
>> everything conceivable in there.
>
> The fact that they write a special interest story about that place
> indicates it's very, very unusual, Joerg. So is Kraynick's Bicycle Shop
> that I mentioned earlier, which is also unusual enough to generate
> similar stories.
>

I have seen several places like that but they are often more
specialized. One in plumbing supplies, others in automotive.

> Those enterprises work for owners who love running them so much that
> they dedicate their life to them, and who don't require as much income
> as most people. They will always be unusual, for reasons most people
> cab easily understand.
>

The family derives their income from that store. For three generations
now so they must be doing something right, as did the prior owners. The
farm is too small to live off.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I'm not sure with my screwed up memory but I think that I designed the digital switching mechanism for the belt pack and several other things for Clearcom. Charlie could design analog circuits with the correct feedback etc. in his head an simply draw it down for a technician to build and test. I would have to pull out the calculator and work everything out from gains to feedback. And even then Charlie could just glance at it and give me advice. That guy is close to 80 and going stronger than ever.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

As an analog guy you should have been able to calculate the temperature in the chamber and the exhaust temperature. I would do that soas to instrument it and send digital information to and from.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Doug, ALL recumbents have a problem with climbing. A streamliner in no different. All you have to do is have a canopy that rolls back. Streamlining on a climb isn't needed anyway. The only problem would be the gearing problems. You have to gear so high for speed on the flats and downhill that it's difficult to get a low enough gear for significant climbing. Especially for a two wheel streamliner where climbing speeds are under 3 mph.

[Joerg]

Yep, I am a consultant and there is the occasional client who does not
understand this initially. A big part is the overhead (office, lab, test
equipment, and so on).

> It would appear to me hat if one paid a bike mechanic $10/hour that
> one's billing to equate to profit on parts would have to be in the
> neighborhood of $26/hour.
>
> I have idea whether one can get sufficient work at $26/hour, or part
> there of, to generate a profit, but in my youth I worked weekends in a
> service station greasing cars and changing oil. I know that we billed
> the price of the oil in the can for an oil change so to the station my
> wages were simply an additional expense.
>

The labor rate is usually much higher than that.

http://www.backalleybikerepair.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/BABR_service_sheet_Feb2012.pdf

Quote "Shop rates are based on a $60 per hour rate".

>
>>> The difference is that the Serviceman needs only the equipment
>>> necessary to accomplish the task he is hired to do. The kid next door
>>> and his snow shovel in one discussion. The Storekeeper on the other
>>> hand has to purchase and store everything that he plans to sell.
>>>
>>
>> Not true. Just like I need a lot of parts stock in my lab a bicycle
>> service shop cannot tell every customer "Well, that'll be a couple of
>> weeks because I've got to order almost all the parts".
>
> What's not true? That a shop selling parts doesn't need to keep aid
> parts in the warehouse? You are being over simplistic, or you don't
> understand what is going on. Fixing a bicycle entails two basic
> things. The service (labour) involved and the supply of parts. So the
> bicycle fixing business entails both service and supply of material.
>

That is what I mean. A good business, whether service man, bike shop or
whatever will have most parts that might potentially be needed on hand.
This creates a cost but a necessary one.

>>
>>> Thus the Serviceman with his limited inventory of equipment that
>>> usually remain useful for a long periods of time is not normally
>>> concerned with inventory although I remember electronics shops turning
>>> down jobs because it would require buying test instruments that they
>>> did not normally use.
>>>
>>
>> That goes for the lawn care guy but not for a serious repair shop. It's
>> hard to earn a living in the field of non-inventory simple service folks
>> because everybody and their brother does it.
>>
> Ah, you have grasped the concept. Now then, how does one maintain the
> inventory of spares without it costing you money.
>

It will cost money. You've got to invest that. Else it might be better
to seek regular employment somewhere. Some people here think that
keeping slow-selling stuff on hand is futile and that view of a
service-oriented business is usually flat wrong.

Sure it costs money. Without investing that money the store one just be
run-of-the-mills, not a store I'd prefer.

>>
>> I knew a previous owner, Frank Fausel, until he passed away at 102-1/2.
>> Great guy and he knew how to really run a business. He taught his son
>> who ran it later, who in turn taught his grandson who runs it now. Oh,
>> and if have a desire to step back into 1850 and do some gold panning,
>> yep, they still got the stuff you need for that. In fall they also sell
>> delicious pears and apples from their family farm.
>>
>> Online it's similar. When I need to replenish specialty parts there are
>> three large online dealers which carry almost any electronics part,
>> including lots of "slow movers". Plus two other places for mechanical
>> engineering. I do not have time to find out who has what and cobble
>> together 4-5 orders. Therefore, I just place the complete order at one
>> of those "We've got it all" places and be done with it. All other
>> engineers I know do the same. You might not believe it but these
>> distributors are all profitable since decades. The Placerville Hardware
>> Store since centuries.
>
>
> So what? There are a great many businesses which stock parts and sell
> parts which has nothing to do with the cost of stocking parts.
>

For all smaller ones stocking parts means inventory costs. Only large
ones can have distributor stock rooms where they only get billed for
stuff after they pulled it from that room. And that only works if they
have a commensurate production volume, else the distrobutor pulls out.


> Amazon, on the other hand does not stock parts ...


Say what? Where have you been living for the last decades?

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-its-like-in-amazons-massive-warehouses-fulfillment-centers-2014-11/#fc-employees-are-generally-paid-between-10-and-14-per-hour-and-they-receive-benefits-like-health-insurance-and-a-401k-match-of-50-4


> ... nor does Alibaba ...


ROFL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmS7h96B9II


> ... and

> I'd guess that both of them has lower costs and higher profits then
> your 3rd generation shop keeper.
>

Hey, hop over the fence into the 21st century :-)

[Joerg]

On 2017-04-22 12:21, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 9:42:55 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-04-21 07:39, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

>>> I'm an embedded system designer and programmer. They have a LOT
>>> of people that claim to be such but hardly anyone that actually
>>> knows what they are doing. But they make up for it by using 10
>>> times the power to do the same work I would. That is why there
>>> are so many people around today that appear to be successful.
>>>
>>
>> Embedded is tough as well because to be truly successful one has to
>> be a good generalist. Similar to us analog guys. For one job I had
>> to learn and really understand hwo turbofan jet engines work.
>> Somehow we didn't have that at the university ...
>
> I'm not sure with my screwed up memory but I think that I designed
> the digital switching mechanism for the belt pack and several other
> things for Clearcom. Charlie could design analog circuits with the
> correct feedback etc. in his head an simply draw it down for a
> technician to build and test. I would have to pull out the calculator
> and work everything out from gains to feedback. And even then Charlie
> could just glance at it and give me advice. That guy is close to 80
> and going stronger than ever.
>

Hopefully he allows himself enough downtime for other activities. I have
slowed down on purpose and my dream would be if clients only give me the
tough stuff. Designs where others threw in the towel. Much of my work is
now like that and this has provided me with more free time. I use that
for fun activities such as MTB and road bike riding or beer brewing.

Sometimes I ride out there on the MTB until way in the boonies. No
traffic sounds whatsoever except maybe the occasional aircraft, birds
chirping, horses whinnying in the distance, zero bars on the cell phone.
Then I sit down on a rock, pull the pad out of a pannier and start
designing the tough stuff. My outdoor office.

[Joerg]

This project wasn't about temperature, more about better fuel economy.
However, not at liberty to say.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Charlie's idea of "downtime" is to get a consulting gig on another project.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Exhaust temperature - Combustion temperature = fuel efficiency.

[jbeattie]

I suspect they're selling a lot of tourist stuff like gold pans -- and household novelties like cherry-pitters and iron skillets. It's great they have a wide selection of hard to find hardware, but I bet the real money is coming from other sources. Note that having "hard to find" items is often the result of buying inventory that never moved. It's great if you're a customer hunting for NOS, but not so great for the owner's cash flow.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Saturday, April 22, 2017 at 3:29:52 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

> That is what I mean. A good business, whether service man, bike shop or
> whatever will have most parts that might potentially be needed on hand.
> This creates a cost but a necessary one.

The operative word there is POTENTIALLY. A small shop can NOT affor to keep every item that might be needed some time by one or two customers. Small bicycle shops have more problems with overhead and or buying stuff from retailers than what bigger shops or chainsdo. I know a number of shops near here that have to put together an order of at least $500.00 before they can get anything. that's notthe shops' fault it's the distributors. It all boils down to knowing your customer vbase and stocking what they need whilst avoiding stocking a lot of stuff that doesn't sell quickly. A small shop with too much slow moving inventory can find itself out of business very quickly.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Saturday, April 22, 2017 at 7:13:23 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped

> I suspect they're selling a lot of tourist stuff like gold pans -- and household novelties like cherry-pitters and iron skillets. It's great they have a wide selection of hard to find hardware, but I bet the real money is coming from other sources. Note that having "hard to find" items is often the result of buying inventory that never moved. It's great if you're a customer hunting for NOS, but not so great for the owner's cash flow.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

Like the little bicycle shop I found out in the country a few years ago. I went in just to see what they had. I ended up buying a fair bit of stuff that day. i got some NOS Uniglide cassettes, Duar Ace AX brake pads, cleats for the Dura Ace AX pedals, rubber gum hoods for Shimano 600 EX brake levers (non-aero) and other things to numerous to list here. The thing is this stuff was sold to me at fire sale prices because it simply hadn't moved in many many years. After all look how long it's been since a Uniglide cassette was made.

Btw, this small shop is no more. it changed to a motor repar shop.

Cheers

[John B Slocomb]

On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:11:24 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Certainly. But then the kid comes back from collage with his MBA and
takes over the store and the next thing you know it is a billion
dollar business.

Although Sam Walton had only a bachelor's degree in economics and
started his store after coming home the Army it is a very similar
story.

[John B Slocomb]

On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:30:03 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Over here in the oil business consultants are usually short time
specialists. You want a guy to (in my case) manage the erection of a
small gas plant you don't hire a bloke full time and put him on the
pay role, retirement plans, fly his wife and kids over, etc., you just
hire a consultant.

I was a bit unique in that I had previously worked for the company but
my contract paid transportation to and from my home of record, local
transportation and a day rate. The company had all encompassing
medical coverage so any work related injury or sickness was paid by
the company.

After one year we had the plant constructed, employees trained, the
plant commissioned and in operation. The company thanked me profusely,
gave me a bit of a bonus and waved good-by.

[Joerg]

On 2017-04-22 16:13, jbeattie wrote:
> On Saturday, April 22, 2017 at 12:11:13 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-04-21 16:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

>>> Those enterprises work for owners who love running them so much
>>> that they dedicate their life to them, and who don't require as
>>> much income as most people. They will always be unusual, for
>>> reasons most people cab easily understand.
>>>
>>
>> The family derives their income from that store. For three
>> generations now so they must be doing something right, as did the
>> prior owners. The farm is too small to live off.
>
> I suspect they're selling a lot of tourist stuff like gold pans --
> and household novelties like cherry-pitters and iron skillets. It's
> great they have a wide selection of hard to find hardware, but I bet
> the real money is coming from other sources.

Not in this case. They operate the hardware store and that provides for
their family. They don't sell much touristy stuff there, that is taken
care of by all sorts of boutiques and antique shops on Main Street.


> ... Note that having "hard

> to find" items is often the result of buying inventory that never
> moved. It's great if you're a customer hunting for NOS, but not so
> great for the owner's cash flow.
>

They do alright. Like myself, their goal is not to become rich but to
have a meaningful life in the community and be liked by customers. When
cycling through Placerville the whole place feels a bit like Mayberry,
just bigger.

I would never willingly move into a town to live there and preferably
also not work there but Placerville is one where I'd compromise if need
be. It still has a real small town feel. Oh, and good brewpubs.

[Joerg]

On 2017-04-22 22:35, John B Slocomb wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:11:24 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-04-21 16:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> Those enterprises work for owners who love running them so much that
>>> they dedicate their life to them, and who don't require as much income
>>> as most people. They will always be unusual, for reasons most people
>>> cab easily understand.
>>>
>>
>> The family derives their income from that store. For three generations
>> now so they must be doing something right, as did the prior owners. The
>> farm is too small to live off.
>
> Certainly. But then the kid comes back from collage with his MBA and
> takes over the store and the next thing you know it is a billion
> dollar business.
>

The old saying is that the 3rd generation ruins it but not here. The 3rd
generation of the Fausel family now runs it and they do a very fine job.

http://www.mtdemocrat.com/news/happy-birthday-placerville-hardware-turns-160/

> Although Sam Walton had only a bachelor's degree in economics and
> started his store after coming home the Army it is a very similar
> story.
>

It does happen. That's how it also was with the Raley's and Bel Air
supermarkets or with Trump. But not here in Placerville.

[Joerg]

That's usually not good for the health. I do that kind of job since
decades and even in the olden days when computers didn't do everything I
sat at the lab bench all day long. Nowadays some of the fun is out
because nearly all my circuitry is designed on the computer simulator. A
very sedentary task so sometimes I force myself to stop the clock, do
some exercise, yard work, a bike ride, whatever.

[Joerg]

That's the simple "macro" view of things and it was the name of the game
in the 60's through 80's. Much of it is already tapped out from an
engineering POV, meaning the lower hanging fruit is all picked. Now it's
more in the "micro" world and that usually has nothing to do with
temperature, or hardly anything.

[Joerg]

On 2017-04-22 16:15, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Saturday, April 22, 2017 at 3:29:52 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> Snipped
>> That is what I mean. A good business, whether service man, bike
>> shop or whatever will have most parts that might potentially be
>> needed on hand. This creates a cost but a necessary one.
>
> The operative word there is POTENTIALLY. A small shop can NOT affor
> to keep every item that might be needed some time by one or two
> customers. Small bicycle shops have more problems with overhead and
> or buying stuff from retailers than what bigger shops or chainsdo. I
> know a number of shops near here that have to put together an order
> of at least $500.00 before they can get anything. that's notthe
> shops' fault it's the distributors.

Then they are doing something wrong. I used to face the same issues in
engineering. As a lone wolf EE it was't always easy to get $20 worth of
certain parts. However, I found avenues to do that.


> ... It all boils down to knowing your

> customer vbase and stocking what they need whilst avoiding stocking a
> lot of stuff that doesn't sell quickly. A small shop with too much
> slow moving inventory can find itself out of business very quickly.
>

It's a fine line between having too much and too litle. Having too
little increases repair times and that causes customers to go elsewhere.
"But I want to go ride the MTB on the weekend!".

[AMuzi]

+1
And worse, the endless telephone calls, "Hey do you have a
size 7 or 8 Raphael Geminiani embroidered wool team jersey
just lying around cheap?"

One is sorely tempted to respond, "Oh you just missed them,
all sold at $1.95 last week"

[Joerg]

That's how I also started (but in med-tech) except that medical coverage
was restricted to job injuries. I had to obtain my own health insurance
and did.

> After one year we had the plant constructed, employees trained, the
> plant commissioned and in operation. The company thanked me profusely,
> gave me a bit of a bonus and waved good-by.
>

That's how I work and that's how I want it. No bonuses though, they just
pay my bills and that's that. Except in one case where they send me a
delicious 2 lbs bar of chocolate around Christmas because I kind of
saved their company from some serious trouble that could have
potentially done them in.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

If it's going to be bad for Charley's health it better get a move on it. If he gets any older he'll be a mummy.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

This is more or less how I work as well but without the bonus.

[Joerg]

Some folks are lucky to have a great genetic disposition. Most don't.