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Chain Reaction closes Los Altos store.

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sms

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Dec 3, 2017, 4:06:52 PM12/3/17
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I was just in Los Altos today and noticed that Chain Reaction is gone.
This is the store owned by Steve and Mike Jacubowsky--Mike used to post
in this group. Their Redwood City store is still open.

I was surprised to see it gone. That store was located in an area where
people have high disposable incomes, and was the only Trek dealer in the
area. They said that parking and rent were issues. The space is still
empty and they closed about 2.5 months ago, so no one is a rush to rent
it. That shopping center can get very crowded because there is a popular
Trader Joe's and a popular produce store, and an unpopular Rite Aid
store. Also there's both a Starbucks and a Peet's coffee.

I never bought a bicycle from them, my only Trek is a tandem and when I
bought it Chain Reaction didn't have the size I needed in stock, even
though they were cheaper than the place I ended up buying it from. For
all the other bicycles we've bought in the past 25 years or so Trek did
not have any models that met our needs, and Chain Reaction is a
Trek-only store. But I know a lot of people who bought expensive
carbon-fiber bicycles from them, one multiple times after the
carbon-fiber frame broke. They were a very well thought-of shop for Trek
buyers.

jbeattie

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Dec 3, 2017, 5:34:35 PM12/3/17
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Trek has a bike for everything. https://www.trekbikes.com/ They even have bike-packing bikes. https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/adventure-touring-bikes/1120/1120/p/1434000-2018/?colorCode=grey

Not that you have to buy Trek (particularly if you're an anti-American communist), but I'm surprised you couldn't find something that suited your needs. Bike Gallery has a mind-boggling variety of bikes. https://www.bikegallery.com/ That's where I got my Emonda via Trek directly because I know the guys in legal. Shameless plug: Bike Gallery.

The Yelp post indicates Mike got squeezed on rent and parking. I'm sure he also go hit by the downturn in the bike market -- which, I am told, hit all the retailers regardless of brand.

-- Jay Beattie.




sms

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Dec 3, 2017, 6:41:21 PM12/3/17
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I like Bike Gallery. Purchased my first Burley trailer there while on a
business trip up to Intel in Hillsboro.

Trek's touring bicycle selection has always been lousy, they have the
Trek 520 which is inferior to other brands' touring bicycles. Chain
Reaction's business model is to be a Trek-only dealer and it seems like
a good plan though it does result in some lost sales when Trek has no
product to serve a specific segment. But if you look on Trek's European
web site, there were quite a few suitable bicycles that we would have
considered, but they aren't sold in the U.S..

Not bashing Trek, their business model makes sense--concentrate on
selling high-profit, high margin, carbon-fiber road bikes. A bicycle
shop as good as Chain Reaction should have been able to have two
locations in this area, but shopping center owners can get unreasonable
when it comes to lease renewals. Their Redwood City location is not open
Sundays which is a pain. The owner of the shopping center where
Cupertino Bike Shop moved to a few years ago is looking to tear down the
shopping center to build housing, I'm already being lobbied by someone
to support that rezoning when it comes up, probably next year.

Last Friday night I went to the Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition holiday
party held at Microsoft/Linked-In. The companies in this area are really
promoting bicycle commuting. At the party I talked to one of
counterparts in Sunnyvale about bicycle infrastructure. Unfortunately,
SVBC has become involved in issues that discourage bicycling,

jbeattie

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Dec 3, 2017, 8:04:27 PM12/3/17
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Hey, synchronicity -- last night, I went to a birthday celebration and campaign rally for a friend of mine who is running for Washington County chair. She is currently a Metro Councilor. Yes, envelopes were distributed, but I'm happy to give. She's a former Intel EE and totally over-powered for any job short of the White House.

I got button-holed by a guy who was on the Bicycle Transportation Alliance board with me a million years ago. Nice guy, but he wanted to talk traffic circles/roundabouts and the various bicycle infrastructure projects in close-in Washington County (Intel and Nike). I was trying to get to the wine. Raptor Ridge -- fabulous Pinot. This guy is still active and trying to make a difference with the local planning departments and has a different agenda than the current iteration of the BTA -- the "Street Trust," which has become too big for its own good and too tied to large scale projects that make the world worse for cyclists like cycletracks, confusing hardscape, etc., etc. It made me want to get involved again -- until I got my wine and got over the impulse.

Its funny that back in the day, the BTA was fighting city planners, including Mia Burke, who went on to start Alta -- the death star of crazy bicycle infrastructure. https://altaplanning.com/alta-planning-and-design/ She told me I was in her book, but I haven't bought a copy. https://www.amazon.com/Joyride-Pedaling-Toward-Healthier-Planet/dp/0615384110 I like Mia. I just have a different vision of what makes cycling convenient and pleasant.

-- Jay Beattie.





sms

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Dec 4, 2017, 11:29:19 AM12/4/17
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On 12/3/2017 5:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> Hey, synchronicity -- last night, I went to a birthday celebration and campaign rally for a friend of mine who is running for Washington County chair. She is currently a Metro Councilor. Yes, envelopes were distributed, but I'm happy to give. She's a former Intel EE and totally over-powered for any job short of the White House.

Heh, I was so shy about asking for money. I believe I ran about the
lowest cost campaign in the last 30 years.

I sent you a link to a Google Doc with some of the campaign stuff that
worked for me, maybe your friend can use some of the ideas.

It was a real experience running for office, with unexpected
experiences, i.e. dealing with the distractions like a former mayor, who
is not one my fans, who at one point insisted that someone from our
grassroots group tried to steal his car.

You should run for something.

> I got button-holed by a guy who was on the Bicycle Transportation Alliance board with me a million years ago. Nice guy, but he wanted to talk traffic circles/roundabouts and the various bicycle infrastructure projects in close-in Washington County (Intel and Nike). I was trying to get to the wine. Raptor Ridge -- fabulous Pinot. This guy is still active and trying to make a difference with the local planning departments and has a different agenda than the current iteration of the BTA -- the "Street Trust," which has become too big for its own good and too tied to large scale projects that make the world worse for cyclists like cycletracks, confusing hardscape, etc., etc. It made me want to get involved again -- until I got my wine and got over the impulse.

They served Linked-In private label wine at the SVBC party, but they ran
out of the red wine. They had good beer. I expect that in Portland, no
one would dare serve bad beer at any event. The food at the SVBC event
is always terrible, cold, soggy, low-quality, pizza.

> Its funny that back in the day, the BTA was fighting city planners, including Mia Burke, who went on to start Alta -- the death star of crazy bicycle infrastructure. https://altaplanning.com/alta-planning-and-design/ She told me I was in her book, but I haven't bought a copy. https://www.amazon.com/Joyride-Pedaling-Toward-Healthier-Planet/dp/0615384110 I like Mia. I just have a different vision of what makes cycling convenient and pleasant.

Ah, Alta design. Quite familiar with them of course. They have proposed
nothing crazy in Cupertino. They produce really beautiful reports! I
would think that our own public works people would have come up with
identical proposals since what can be done in terms of infrastructure is
pretty straightforward here, but I can't complain about their proposals.

russell...@yahoo.com

unread,
Dec 4, 2017, 1:47:02 PM12/4/17
to
On Sunday, December 3, 2017 at 5:41:21 PM UTC-6, sms wrote:
>
> Trek's touring bicycle selection has always been lousy, they have the
> Trek 520 which is inferior to other brands' touring bicycles.

Trek has the 520 for loaded touring. Most every other bike company has exactly ONE loaded touring bike too. The 520 is very similar or the exact same as every other loaded touring bike sold. There are no differences in loaded touring bikes. They all have steel frame and forks made in China. Shimano or maybe SRAM mid/low level components. Bar end shifters. 9 speed cassette. Triple crank. They are all the same. None are inferior or superior to the others. They are all the same. Only difference is price. Nashbar and Bikes Direct are at the cheaper end and Trek is at the higher end. Same bike.

I assume you have never ever in your life been loaded touring. The Trek 520 works just fine as a loaded touring bike. I have several months and thousands of miles to back this up. You just want a bike that works just fine day after day. Nothing fancy or wild.

russell...@yahoo.com

unread,
Dec 4, 2017, 1:54:04 PM12/4/17
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On Sunday, December 3, 2017 at 4:34:35 PM UTC-6, jbeattie wrote:
>
> Not that you have to buy Trek (particularly if you're an anti-American communist),
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

Probably 99.9% of every bike Trek sells is made in China. I think only their Project One OCLV 9000 or so bike is actually made in USA. All the other carbon bikes come from China. I guess Dell Computer is an American company even though 100% of everything they sell is made in China. And Toyota is a foreign company even though their cars are made in USA. Its a wacky world we live in.

Joerg

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Dec 4, 2017, 2:26:51 PM12/4/17
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I am quite certain I'd rip out those tiny rack mounts within the year:

https://trek.scene7.com/is/image/TrekBicycleProducts/1120_22005_A_Alt1?wid=1360&hei=1020&fmt=jpg,rgb&qlt=40,1&iccEmbed=0&cache=on,on

This is how it's done right, four 1/4" diatemer bolts and so on:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy4.JPG


> Not that you have to buy Trek (particularly if you're an
> anti-American communist), but I'm surprised you couldn't find
> something that suited your needs. Bike Gallery has a mind-boggling
> variety of bikes. https://www.bikegallery.com/ That's where I got my
> Emonda via Trek directly because I know the guys in legal. Shameless
> plug: Bike Gallery.
>
> The Yelp post indicates Mike got squeezed on rent and parking. I'm
> sure he also go hit by the downturn in the bike market -- which, I am
> told, hit all the retailers regardless of brand.
>

What is causing this bike market downturn?

I wonder if E-bikes could turn that around. Not that I like those, being
more of a purist, but yesterday I test-rode one that my MTB buddy built
up from parts. Heavy Specialized DH MTB, now with a 750W crank motor,
battery pack temporarily strapped to my back. Woohoo, that thing was
like a rocket, uphill it almost wanted to pull a wheelie.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

avag...@gmail.com

unread,
Dec 4, 2017, 2:31:20 PM12/4/17
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no demand

sms

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Dec 4, 2017, 2:59:31 PM12/4/17
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You can tell the difference between loaded touring bicycles by looking
at the type of steel, the geometry, the components, and the included, if
any, racks.

A big advantage in newer models, is disc brakes, i.e. the Surly Long
Haul Trucker Disc model. These would have been very nice to have when
doing loaded touring on steep long downhill runs.

jbeattie

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Dec 4, 2017, 3:16:23 PM12/4/17
to
You are clearly an anti-American communist. I think the foreign production number is 99.0%. The 99.9% number is clearly liberal bias and fake news.

Trek, however, also owns shops and employs AMERICANS! My Emonda was assembled in the USA -- it's also a great bike.

I only buy products made by American companies, except for my Subaru and most everything else I own. I have a Chris King headset in a box downstairs. Made in Portland, USA! And some old Phil hubs and a BB made in San Jose, California, parts of which are American!

-- Jay Beattie.




Frank Krygowski

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Dec 4, 2017, 3:31:44 PM12/4/17
to
On 12/4/2017 2:59 PM, sms wrote:
> On 12/4/2017 10:46 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 3, 2017 at 5:41:21 PM UTC-6, sms wrote:
>>>
>>> Trek's touring bicycle selection has always been lousy, they have the
>>> Trek 520 which is inferior to other brands' touring bicycles.
>>
>> Trek has the 520 for loaded touring.  Most every other bike company
>> has exactly ONE loaded touring bike too.  The 520 is very similar or
>> the exact same as every other loaded touring bike sold.  There are no
>> differences in loaded touring bikes.  They all have steel frame and
>> forks made in China.  Shimano or maybe SRAM mid/low level components.
>> Bar end shifters.  9 speed cassette.  Triple crank.  They are all the
>> same.  None are inferior or superior to the others.  They are all the
>> same.  Only difference is price.  Nashbar and Bikes Direct are at the
>> cheaper end and Trek is at the higher end.  Same bike.
>>
>> I assume you have never ever in your life been loaded touring.  The
>> Trek 520 works just fine as a loaded touring bike.  I have several
>> months and thousands of miles to back this up.  You just want a bike
>> that works just fine day after day.  Nothing fancy or wild.
>
> You can tell the difference between loaded touring bicycles by looking
> at the type of steel, the geometry, the components, and the included, if
> any, racks.

As Russell said, the components are fine. 2018 Trek 520 has a Deore rear
derailleur, Alivio front derailleur and Dura Ace shifters. Most other
components are decent Shimano stuff. The steel is butted chrome-moly. It
comes with a decent rack and fittings for front low riders. I don't know
what more you want. The bike has a very good reputation and it's well
deserved.

> A big advantage in newer models, is disc brakes, i.e. the Surly Long
> Haul Trucker Disc model. These would have been very nice to have when
> doing loaded touring on steep long downhill runs.

Ah yes, now that disc brakes are on the market, the brakes that served
us well for decades are suddenly inadequate. Fashion is everything!

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski

unread,
Dec 4, 2017, 3:39:43 PM12/4/17
to
On 12/4/2017 2:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-12-03 14:34, jbeattie wrote:
>
> What is causing this bike market downturn?

It MUST be fake news! You, Joerg, have assured us that by building bike
trails we'd get millions of Americans to give up their cars forever. And
every year, more segregated kiddy paths have been built. Some cities
have doubled their bike mode share, all the way from 0.2% to 0.4%!
That's like a 100% increase!

So I'm not going to believe any biased communist industry data. I _know_
bike sales have skyrocketed! Those bike dealers are not reporting sales
so they can cheat on their taxes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

sms

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Dec 4, 2017, 3:54:42 PM12/4/17
to
On 12/4/2017 11:26 AM, Joerg wrote:

> What is causing this bike market downturn?

a) Helmet promotion

b) Flashing daytime running lights and 1500+ lumen front lights with
wide beams

c) The resurgence of steel frames

Seriously, if you read Bicycle Retailer News, you can see that many
companies are doing very well while others are struggling. But bicycle
imports are down overall even while some categories are up.

Thule is doing great. Shimano is doing great.

Some stores are adding locations. Some stores are closing locations.

Trek has been lowering prices and Specialized has been raising prices.

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/studies-reports/2017/10/30/bpsa-shipments-dealers-down-5-percent-through-september

One thing that is probably really hurting bicycle shops is
direct-to-consumer sales of parts, accessories, and clothing, from
retailers and manufacturers outside the U.S.. These sales are not part
of industry data. I know that personally I've purchased quite a few
items from several retailers Europe and Asia, not because of price, but
because lack of availability in the U.S.. But also I've purchased quite
a few items from an LBS that is not local to me. <tinyurl.com/notatlbs>

Manufacturer direct to consumer sales also don't show up in BPSA sales
figures to dealers. It seems that a lot of people have some connection
direct to the manufacturer, which bypasses the bicycle store completely,
both for complete bicycles and for parts, clothing, and accessories.

Joerg

unread,
Dec 4, 2017, 4:00:54 PM12/4/17
to
On 2017-12-04 12:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 12/4/2017 2:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-12-03 14:34, jbeattie wrote:
>>
>> What is causing this bike market downturn?
>
> It MUST be fake news! You, Joerg, have assured us that by building bike
> trails we'd get millions of Americans to give up their cars forever. And
> every year, more segregated kiddy paths have been built. Some cities
> have doubled their bike mode share, all the way from 0.2% to 0.4%!
> That's like a 100% increase!
>

Sure it is, and for America that is quite big. Weren't you the guy
always touting the health benefits? Calculate the health Dollars saved here.


> So I'm not going to believe any biased communist industry data. I _know_
> bike sales have skyrocketed! Those bike dealers are not reporting sales
> so they can cheat on their taxes.
>

We were talking about the Silicon Valley. I can imagine that cycling
down there isn't exactly fun. Up here in the Sierra foothills bike sales
are brisk. Else successes such as these would not happen:

http://teamcycleandtscafe.com/contact-about-us/1768830

http://www.bisonbikes.com/

Bison is where I bought my MTB and then other stuff. Imagine, two
successful bike shops in a village of less than 20000. And it continues
around us as well. This shop in Placerville opened recently, was in
there yesterday:

http://placerville-downtown.org/businesses/hangtown-cyclery/

What blew my mind is what some people are spending on bicycles and
parts. Kevin showed us a mod he was working on for a customer. New
12-speed cluster with 50T cog and the cassette alone cost well north of
$300. Twelve! Crazy.

jbeattie

unread,
Dec 4, 2017, 4:01:46 PM12/4/17
to
If the industry only understood that you need a bunch of clamped on arms to hold 20lbs of luggage! What are they thinking! More bolts . . . more arms!

BTW, the idea of bikepacking is not to put 100lbs on a rear rack. The idea is to divide the load between front and back. http://www.bikepacking.com/news/2018-trek-1120-bikepacking-stache/

Bikepacking is an actual thing. It is not "Joerg-ing" or Superbad-Cameron-Park- Gnar riding with CPUs. It involves packing a relatively modest load of camping gear and food, typically in soft packs. People who haul cargo typically ride cargo bikes. If I were in your shoes, I'd skip the rear suspension and go with a rigid fat bike, being that you're probably bottoming-out your rear shock with your massive, incredible, impossibly heavy loads.


-- Jay Beattie.

jbeattie

unread,
Dec 4, 2017, 4:19:07 PM12/4/17
to
On Monday, December 4, 2017 at 12:54:42 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> On 12/4/2017 11:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> > What is causing this bike market downturn?
>
> a) Helmet promotion
>
> b) Flashing daytime running lights and 1500+ lumen front lights with
> wide beams
>
> c) The resurgence of steel frames
>
> Seriously, if you read Bicycle Retailer News, you can see that many
> companies are doing very well while others are struggling. But bicycle
> imports are down overall even while some categories are up.
>
> Thule is doing great. Shimano is doing great.
>
> Some stores are adding locations. Some stores are closing locations.
>
> Trek has been lowering prices and Specialized has been raising prices.
>
> http://www.bicycleretailer.com/studies-reports/2017/10/30/bpsa-shipments-dealers-down-5-percent-through-september
>
> One thing that is probably really hurting bicycle shops is
> direct-to-consumer sales of parts, accessories, and clothing, from
> retailers and manufacturers outside the U.S.. These sales are not part
> of industry data. I know that personally I've purchased quite a few
> items from several retailers Europe and Asia . . .


That is because you are an anti-American communist. Once we pass the Trump tax plan and lower the corporate tax rate, all the corporations will return to the USA -- Shimano, Campagnolo, Mavic, Michelin, etc., etc. All the parts we used buy from other countries will be made in the USA again!

-- Jay Beattie.

Joerg

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Dec 4, 2017, 4:24:05 PM12/4/17
to
On 2017-12-04 12:54, sms wrote:
> On 12/4/2017 11:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> What is causing this bike market downturn?
>
> a) Helmet promotion
>

Huh? If someone promotes soap operas and I don't like soap operas, how
is that making me not buying a TV set to watch Westerns?


> b) Flashing daytime running lights and 1500+ lumen front lights with
> wide beams
>

I see that rarely. Most people have those puny flashlight on a plastic
clamp. Or worse, nothing at all and at the most a wimpy tail light with
an already leaking depleted battery. A blinding 1500 lumen light is like
a car high-beam and would be flagged by police soon.


> c) The resurgence of steel frames
>

That is a good thing IMHO. Still riding my steel road bike.


> Seriously, if you read Bicycle Retailer News, you can see that many
> companies are doing very well while others are struggling. But bicycle
> imports are down overall even while some categories are up.
>
> Thule is doing great. Shimano is doing great.
>
> Some stores are adding locations. Some stores are closing locations.
>
> Trek has been lowering prices and Specialized has been raising prices.
>
>http://www.bicycleretailer.com/studies-reports/2017/10/30/bpsa-shipments-dealers-down-5-percent-through-september

>

Quote "... front-suspension 29ers posted 11 percent growth, and 27.5
full-suspension bike shipments rose 4 percent ..."

Got to know where the market is. Just like the car guys have to.
Sometimes sedans are en vogue, sometimes SUVs.

>
> One thing that is probably really hurting bicycle shops is
> direct-to-consumer sales of parts, accessories, and clothing, from
> retailers and manufacturers outside the U.S..


No wonder. Dealers and middlemen have to be less greedy. When they want
$17 for a pair of sub-par resin brake pads that last 500mi while I can
buy a pair in almost motorcycle grade for $2 from Hangzhou that lasts
1000mi and more, why are they surprised?


> ... These sales are not part
> of industry data. I know that personally I've purchased quite a few
> items from several retailers Europe and Asia, not because of price, but
> because lack of availability in the U.S.. But also I've purchased quite
> a few items from an LBS that is not local to me. <tinyurl.com/notatlbs>
>
> Manufacturer direct to consumer sales also don't show up in BPSA sales
> figures to dealers. It seems that a lot of people have some connection
> direct to the manufacturer, which bypasses the bicycle store completely,
> both for complete bicycles and for parts, clothing, and accessories.


I think it can be summed up in very few words: Amazon, EBay, and similar.

If they don't track that the data is fairly useless. They've got to
track it.

AMuzi

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Dec 4, 2017, 4:24:57 PM12/4/17
to
On 12/4/2017 2:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 12/4/2017 2:59 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 12/4/2017 10:46 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, December 3, 2017 at 5:41:21 PM UTC-6, sms wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Trek's touring bicycle selection has always been lousy,
>>>> they have the
>>>> Trek 520 which is inferior to other brands' touring
>>>> bicycles.
>>>
>>> Trek has the 520 for loaded touring. Most every other
>>> bike company has exactly ONE loaded touring bike too.Â
>>> The 520 is very similar or the exact same as every other
>>> loaded touring bike sold. There are no differences in
>>> loaded touring bikes. They all have steel frame and
>>> forks made in China. Shimano or maybe SRAM mid/low
>>> level components. Bar end shifters. 9 speed cassette.Â
>>> Triple crank. They are all the same. None are
>>> inferior or superior to the others. They are all the
>>> same. Only difference is price. Nashbar and Bikes
>>> Direct are at the cheaper end and Trek is at the higher
>>> end. Same bike.
>>>
>>> I assume you have never ever in your life been loaded
>>> touring. The Trek 520 works just fine as a loaded
>>> touring bike. I have several months and thousands of
>>> miles to back this up. You just want a bike that works
>>> just fine day after day. Nothing fancy or wild.
>>
>> You can tell the difference between loaded touring
>> bicycles by looking at the type of steel, the geometry,
>> the components, and the included, if any, racks.
>
> As Russell said, the components are fine. 2018 Trek 520 has
> a Deore rear derailleur, Alivio front derailleur and Dura
> Ace shifters. Most other components are decent Shimano
> stuff. The steel is butted chrome-moly. It comes with a
> decent rack and fittings for front low riders. I don't know
> what more you want. The bike has a very good reputation and
> it's well deserved.
>
>> A big advantage in newer models, is disc brakes, i.e. the
>> Surly Long Haul Trucker Disc model. These would have been
>> very nice to have when doing loaded touring on steep long
>> downhill runs.
>
> Ah yes, now that disc brakes are on the market, the brakes
> that served us well for decades are suddenly inadequate.
> Fashion is everything!
>

And you have the wrong rim size.
Probably an out-of-date BB format as well.


--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Joerg

unread,
Dec 4, 2017, 4:33:29 PM12/4/17
to
There is a whole lot that the bike industry doesn't understand. Since
decades.


> BTW, the idea of bikepacking is not to put 100lbs on a rear rack.


Not 100lbs but sometimes 50lbs or a bit more. When a machine part weighs
60lbs it weighs 60lbs and you have to put it somewhere. Or use the car.


> The idea is to divide the load between front and back.
> http://www.bikepacking.com/news/2018-trek-1120-bikepacking-stache/
>

Now explain how to do that with a front suspension fork. Aside from the
fact that the last thing you want to do on an MTB is increase the
steered mass. It'll also dig into mud too easily.


> Bikepacking is an actual thing. It is not "Joerg-ing" or
> Superbad-Cameron-Park- Gnar riding with CPUs. It involves packing a
> relatively modest load of camping gear and food, typically in soft
> packs. People who haul cargo typically ride cargo bikes. If I were
> in your shoes, I'd skip the rear suspension and go with a rigid fat
> bike, being that you're probably bottoming-out your rear shock with
> your massive, incredible, impossibly heavy loads.
>

I'd be in major pain very soon. Once I forgot to unlock the rear
suspension for the first mile on a rocky trail. I was promtly reminded
by sharp pain from the L4-5-6 region of my back.

Also, I made sure my MTB is well equipped for such work. The rear shock
can be pumped up to 300psi. Even with the heaviest of loads I never
needed more than 230psi and I am not a lightweight myself.

sms

unread,
Dec 4, 2017, 5:45:27 PM12/4/17
to
On 12/4/2017 1:00 PM, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> What blew my mind is what some people are spending on bicycles and
> parts. Kevin showed us a mod he was working on for a customer. New
> 12-speed cluster with 50T cog and the cassette alone cost well north of
> $300. Twelve! Crazy.

It's important not to attempt to correlate the amount of bicycling with
the number of new bicycles that are being sold.

Joerg

unread,
Dec 4, 2017, 6:10:22 PM12/4/17
to
Those kinds of customers are hardcore riders though. The bikes usually
look the part, they aren't garage queens.

jbeattie

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Dec 4, 2017, 6:50:01 PM12/4/17
to
On Monday, December 4, 2017 at 1:00:54 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-12-04 12:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 12/4/2017 2:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
> >> On 2017-12-03 14:34, jbeattie wrote:
> >>
> >> What is causing this bike market downturn?
> >
> > It MUST be fake news! You, Joerg, have assured us that by building bike
> > trails we'd get millions of Americans to give up their cars forever. And
> > every year, more segregated kiddy paths have been built. Some cities
> > have doubled their bike mode share, all the way from 0.2% to 0.4%!
> > That's like a 100% increase!
> >
>
> Sure it is, and for America that is quite big. Weren't you the guy
> always touting the health benefits? Calculate the health Dollars saved here.
>
>
> > So I'm not going to believe any biased communist industry data. I _know_
> > bike sales have skyrocketed! Those bike dealers are not reporting sales
> > so they can cheat on their taxes.
> >
>
> We were talking about the Silicon Valley. I can imagine that cycling
> down there isn't exactly fun. Up here in the Sierra foothills bike sales
> are brisk. Else successes such as these would not happen:

You're f****** nuts. SCV has some of the best riding in the state. Ever climbed Mt. Hamilton? http://www.bikecal.com/MustDoClimbs/images/mtHamilton1.jpg The Santa Cruz mountains? https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5d/51/71/5d51711340153499f4c5d94fe40bf212--bicycling-magazine-you-are-here.jpg

Out to the coast? Old LaHonda to the coast was awesome. https://www.southbayriders.com/forums/attachments/172370/ I still miss that. I miss Hamilton except for the crack seal. I finished first in the Mt. Hamilton Challenge (200K/>10K climbing) -- that was a great day.

All these places beat the shit out of Cameron Park. The SCV also has a strong cycling community -- at least it did when I was there. Remember Tom Ritchey, Keith Bontrager? -- Jim Blackburn (Blackburn), Jim Gentes (Giro), Mike Sinyard (Specialized), Rock Shockm( in '90s), etc., etc. Wake up and smell the coffee. The SCV was the belly-button of the bike industry and has some spectacular cycling.

-- Jay Beattie.





Joerg

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Dec 4, 2017, 7:14:05 PM12/4/17
to
On 2017-12-04 15:49, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, December 4, 2017 at 1:00:54 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-12-04 12:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 12/4/2017 2:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-12-03 14:34, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What is causing this bike market downturn?
>>>
>>> It MUST be fake news! You, Joerg, have assured us that by
>>> building bike trails we'd get millions of Americans to give up
>>> their cars forever. And every year, more segregated kiddy paths
>>> have been built. Some cities have doubled their bike mode share,
>>> all the way from 0.2% to 0.4%! That's like a 100% increase!
>>>
>>
>> Sure it is, and for America that is quite big. Weren't you the guy
>> always touting the health benefits? Calculate the health Dollars
>> saved here.
>>
>>
>>> So I'm not going to believe any biased communist industry data. I
>>> _know_ bike sales have skyrocketed! Those bike dealers are not
>>> reporting sales so they can cheat on their taxes.
>>>
>>
>> We were talking about the Silicon Valley. I can imagine that
>> cycling down there isn't exactly fun. Up here in the Sierra
>> foothills bike sales are brisk. Else successes such as these would
>> not happen:
>
> You're f****** nuts.


Man, you have a fuse almost as short as that of El Presidente :-)


> ... SCV has some of the best riding in the state.
That's not what we consider best riding out here. This is what we
consider best riding:

https://cdn-files.apstatic.com/mtb/7003908_medium_1437192781.jpg

This is real life in the Bay Area:

http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/34/07/22/7369879/9/1024x1024.jpg

And no thanks, I'll never want to live there.


> Out to the coast? Old LaHonda to the coast was awesome.
> https://www.southbayriders.com/forums/attachments/172370/ I still
> miss that. I miss Hamilton except for the crack seal. I finished
> first in the Mt. Hamilton Challenge (200K/>10K climbing) -- that was
> a great day.
>

Congratulations. I never participated in a race and never will. Not my
cuppa tea. I am also not the top notch sports guy like you are.


> All these places beat the shit out of Cameron Park.


They sure do not.


> ... The SCV also has
> a strong cycling community -- at least it did when I was there.
> Remember Tom Ritchey, Keith Bontrager? -- Jim Blackburn (Blackburn),
> Jim Gentes (Giro), Mike Sinyard (Specialized), Rock Shockm( in '90s),
> etc., etc. Wake up and smell the coffee. The SCV was the
> belly-button of the bike industry and has some spectacular cycling.
>

I am not into famous people, they don't matter much to me. What I want
is pristine nature, preferably no motor-vehicle traffic and the
occasional river access. A brewpub here and there can't hurt.

Frank Krygowski

unread,
Dec 4, 2017, 9:43:30 PM12/4/17
to
On 12/4/2017 4:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-12-04 12:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 12/4/2017 2:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-12-03 14:34, jbeattie wrote:
>>>
>>> What is causing this bike market downturn?
>>
>> It MUST be fake news! You, Joerg, have assured us that by building bike
>> trails we'd get millions of Americans to give up their cars forever. And
>> every year, more segregated kiddy paths have been built. Some cities
>> have doubled their bike mode share, all the way from 0.2% to 0.4%!
>> That's like a 100% increase!
>>
>
> Sure it is, and for America that is quite big. Weren't you the guy
> always touting the health benefits? Calculate the health Dollars saved
> here.

My little suburban village has a population of about 3000. If there were
a 0.2% increase in bike mode share, that would mean six new riders. For
a segregated bike path, one million dollars per mile is a bit on the
cheap side of things. So how much should the village spend on kiddie
paths to improve the health of six people?

>> So I'm not going to believe any biased communist industry data. I _know_
>> bike sales have skyrocketed! Those bike dealers are not reporting sales
>> so they can cheat on their taxes.
>>
>
> We were talking about the Silicon Valley. I can imagine that cycling
> down there isn't exactly fun. Up here in the Sierra foothills bike sales
> are brisk. Else successes such as these would not happen:
>
> http://teamcycleandtscafe.com/contact-about-us/1768830
>
> http://www.bisonbikes.com/

So you have two bike shops, one in business for about 12 years, and one
that just opened? And we're supposed to be impressed?

Let's give it a few years. Bike shops come and bike shops go, just like
other businesses.

Jay mentioned Tom Ritchey, Keith Bontrager, Jim Blackburn, Jim Gentes
and Mike Sinyard. I can mention Arni Nashbar. All those people did big
things in the bicycling business. It's weird that you demean them as
being mere "famous people" but want us to be impressed by a couple tiny
shops, one of which is still wet behind the ears.

--
- Frank Krygowski

jbeattie

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Dec 4, 2017, 11:55:40 PM12/4/17
to
I'm talking road. Silly me, I forgot don't ride on the road because it is too dangerous -- but you will ride on an unprotected precipice where a fall means death. O.K. And by the way, that picture is what -- 50-75 miles from your house up HWY 50? How do you propose to get there? I post pictures of Mt. Hood which is also about 50 or so miles away, but at least I can ride there.

>
> This is real life in the Bay Area:
>
> http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/34/07/22/7369879/9/1024x1024.jpg
>
> And no thanks, I'll never want to live there.

Nobody is saying you have to. And BTW, that's SF and not the Santa Clara Valley.
>
> > Out to the coast? Old LaHonda to the coast was awesome.
> > https://www.southbayriders.com/forums/attachments/172370/ I still
> > miss that. I miss Hamilton except for the crack seal. I finished
> > first in the Mt. Hamilton Challenge (200K/>10K climbing) -- that was
> > a great day.
> >
>
> Congratulations. I never participated in a race and never will. Not my
> cuppa tea. I am also not the top notch sports guy like you are.

It is now referred to as a "gran fondo." I never did do the Mt. Hamilton Road Race. I knew I would get dropped by the 120lb guys. Have to take your victories where you can get them.

>
> > All these places beat the shit out of Cameron Park.
>
>
> They sure do not.
>

All I hear from you is how incredibly dangerous it is to ride in Cameron Park and the environs. It sounds like a living hell. Why would anyone want to live there who likes to ride on the road? Meanwhile, when I lived in the SCV, I commuted thousands of miles, raced, raced track (no velodrome in Cameron Park the last I checked), rode through dramatic redwood forest to the ocean one day and then the next day road up the brown hills of the Hamilton range to a late Victorian observatory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lick_Observatory Riding through the strawberry fields near Watsonville was amazing -- like riding through a jar of jam. I frequently rode over to Aptos and stayed at a friends house up in the hills, looking down at Monterey Bay. Not going to get that in Cameron Park.

>
> > ... The SCV also has
> > a strong cycling community -- at least it did when I was there.
> > Remember Tom Ritchey, Keith Bontrager? -- Jim Blackburn (Blackburn),
> > Jim Gentes (Giro), Mike Sinyard (Specialized), Rock Shockm( in '90s),
> > etc., etc. Wake up and smell the coffee. The SCV was the
> > belly-button of the bike industry and has some spectacular cycling.
> >
>
> I am not into famous people, they don't matter much to me. What I want
> is pristine nature, preferably no motor-vehicle traffic and the
> occasional river access. A brewpub here and there can't hurt.

The point I was making is that the SCV has a very active cycling community, a deep history in the bicycle industry and many riding opportunities. Riding in the SCV was a lot of "fun" for me. It would not be fun for you because you find road riding scary, bad, etc., etc. If you're not getting run over by a car, you're dying of exhaust inhalation.

-- Jay Beattie.

retrog...@gmail.com

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Dec 5, 2017, 5:36:14 AM12/5/17
to
You're f****** nuts....All these places beat the shit out of Cameron Park.

Jay, you really don't know what you're talking about. As one who has lived in both places, I am here to attest to the fact that cycling in and around the Sierra foothills has Bay Area cycling beat all to hell. It's probably the best cycling area in the entire country. The Bay Area is too freaking crowded.

jbeattie

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Dec 5, 2017, 10:37:15 AM12/5/17
to
On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 2:36:14 AM UTC-8, retrog...@gmail.com wrote:
> You're f****** nuts....All these places beat the shit out of Cameron Park.
>
> Jay, you really don't know what you're talking about. As one who has lived in both places, I am here to attest to the fact that cycling in and around the Sierra foothills has Bay Area cycling beat all to hell. It's probably the best cycling area in the entire country. The Bay Area is too freaking crowded.

According to Joerg, riding in the Sierra foothills is a nightmare.

I can't comment on current conditions in SCV, and I haven't lived in the Sierra foothills, but I've ridden there plenty of times coming back from Tahoe and Yosemite and on day rides. I like the Sierra a lot. I've done the Death Ride a few times and many tours. But the run-out through the foothills is not the best part. HWY 49 has some difficult climbs and atmospheric old towns, but it is not like riding to an alpine lake on Ebbetts or any of the scenery in the high Sierra. It isn't like riding on the coast or to the coast -- or even Skyline to the Bay. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/San_Francisco_Bay_Area_Skyline_Blvd.jpg

No doubt the Sierra foothills are more rural and less crowded than much of the SCV, and I'm not saying anyone has to move to a city. When I lived in the SCV, my favorite rides were not in the city. They were in the mountains or on the coast. It was "fun" and not miserable as Joerg claims. Plenty of bikes are being sold in the SCV, I'm sure -- not including all the bikes being sold from the Specialized headquarters in Morgan Hill.

As far as the best riding in the country goes, I much prefer riding through varied greenery. http://beautifulhoodriver.com/images/20101117040737__mg_4593_11-19-10.jpg I do love the smell of riding through the brown hills in California, but even then, I prefer the set between the valley and coast because there is more bay and eucalyptus -- great smells. Not just oak and grass.

-- Jay Beattie.






AMuzi

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Dec 5, 2017, 10:59:37 AM12/5/17
to
You have good points but at some point it becomes 'mine
(bike, girlfriend, car, watch, whatever) is better than yours.

https://www.travelwisconsin.com/uploads/events/e5/e551dde6-1dcb-4fd6-a530-ffd58acc4096-farm-and-bikers.jpg

People like what they like, which is great. Celebrate diversity!
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/rWGBaVBXa9s/maxresdefault.jpg

avag...@gmail.com

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Dec 5, 2017, 11:32:48 AM12/5/17
to
when I diverted from N-S San Juan Island route south to lower Colorado for winter 5 times (?) down Cal One thru the Lost Coast Mattole Road using S&T/ Garmin Nroute
to Goose Island/Rockport for Gulf Grackle study/seismology off the similar Orca kayak research at Juan de Fuca ....I felt a definite loss. a homesickness for the great scenic splendor sensory input of the Coast n Sierras. Left with nothing coming thru in Texas. Empty. Windy.

Super research results tho as birds have their own local seismographs from oil money. Texas farm machinery lot not a rusty farm all n spreader but a collection looking like their gonna start an interstate.

Duane

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Dec 5, 2017, 11:38:12 AM12/5/17
to
Anyone can ride where they want. I don't mind riding in Montreal. I do
that for my commute and don't have many complaints. When I'm not
working, I sometime ride down to the old port if it's a weekday and
there aren't a gazillion bikes on the road there.

But generally on weekends I'm heading west away from the city. It's not
really much about the traffic but I'm about 30km from the Ontario border
and the road quality is a lot better there. Anyway, most weekends I'm
with my club group and it's easier with wider roads and less traffic.

The hills and scenery west of Montreal are nice but I don't mind the
scenery in Old Montreal either.

jbeattie

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Dec 5, 2017, 11:45:26 AM12/5/17
to
Absolutely, and I have no doubt that commuting to work in the middle of nowhere is better than commuting in a city with lots of cars. I got yelled at this morning, so I'm hating the city. I probably deserved to get yelled at. Oh well.

-- Jay Beattie.

Frank Krygowski

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Dec 5, 2017, 1:23:19 PM12/5/17
to
On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 5:36:14 AM UTC-5, retrog...@gmail.com wrote:
> You're f****** nuts....All these places beat the shit out of Cameron Park.
>
> Jay, you really don't know what you're talking about. As one who has lived in both places, I am here to attest to the fact that cycling in and around the Sierra foothills has Bay Area cycling beat all to hell. It's probably the best cycling area in the entire country. The Bay Area is too freaking crowded.

I can understand people having different preferences. But Joerg has posted
photos of roads in his area that look like paradise to me. Trouble is, he
says they show how deadly road riding is. That makes no sense.

- Frank Krygowski

Joerg

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Dec 5, 2017, 2:42:26 PM12/5/17
to
You go there by car with the bike in back. We also have nice and
pristine trails within riding distance which I use regularly. Some even
for utility rides which is rare in other areas.


>>
>> This is real life in the Bay Area:
>>
>> http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/34/07/22/7369879/9/1024x1024.jpg
>>
>> And no thanks, I'll never want to live there.
>
> Nobody is saying you have to. And BTW, that's SF and not the Santa
> Clara Valley.


Same thing by now, it all one gigantic clog.

>>
>>> Out to the coast? Old LaHonda to the coast was awesome.
>>> https://www.southbayriders.com/forums/attachments/172370/ I
>>> still miss that. I miss Hamilton except for the crack seal. I
>>> finished first in the Mt. Hamilton Challenge (200K/>10K climbing)
>>> -- that was a great day.
>>>
>>
>> Congratulations. I never participated in a race and never will. Not
>> my cuppa tea. I am also not the top notch sports guy like you are.
>
> It is now referred to as a "gran fondo." I never did do the Mt.
> Hamilton Road Race. I knew I would get dropped by the 120lb guys.


Yeah, but you'd get'em on the way down :-)


> Have to take your victories where you can get them.
>

I've never felt the urge to achieve a victory in cycling.


>>
>>> All these places beat the shit out of Cameron Park.
>>
>>
>> They sure do not.
>>
>
> All I hear from you is how incredibly dangerous it is to ride in
> Cameron Park and the environs. It sounds like a living hell.


I never said that. I said it is risky on some roads here. Because it is.


> ... Why
> would anyone want to live there who likes to ride on the road?


Road bikers usually prefer Folsom and sometimes El Dorado Hills. There
you have much better connections to the bike path system. Some time next
year we will, too, at least such that the stretches on busy roads shrink
to 2-3mi which I find ok. There are two new large developments going in
and Folsom requires builders to provide cycling infrastructure, else no
permits. This will effectively connect the end of a long a long
singletrack (goes all the way to Placerville and then paved on to
Camino) with the American River bike path system and also provide an
easy road with bike lanes from El Dorado Hills into Folsom with same
bike path system access.


> Meanwhile, when I lived in the SCV, I commuted thousands of miles,
> raced, raced track (no velodrome in Cameron Park the last I checked),


A velodrome is the worst kind of cycling I can imagine. Like running in
a squirrel cage.


> rode through dramatic redwood forest to the ocean one day and then
> the next day road up the brown hills of the Hamilton range to a late
> Victorian observatory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lick_Observatory
> Riding through the strawberry fields near Watsonville was amazing --
> like riding through a jar of jam. I frequently rode over to Aptos and
> stayed at a friends house up in the hills, looking down at Monterey
> Bay. Not going to get that in Cameron Park.
>

Try that again nowadays.


>>
>>> ... The SCV also has a strong cycling community -- at least it
>>> did when I was there. Remember Tom Ritchey, Keith Bontrager? --
>>> Jim Blackburn (Blackburn), Jim Gentes (Giro), Mike Sinyard
>>> (Specialized), Rock Shockm( in '90s), etc., etc. Wake up and
>>> smell the coffee. The SCV was the belly-button of the bike
>>> industry and has some spectacular cycling.
>>>
>>
>> I am not into famous people, they don't matter much to me. What I
>> want is pristine nature, preferably no motor-vehicle traffic and
>> the occasional river access. A brewpub here and there can't hurt.
>
> The point I was making is that the SCV has a very active cycling
> community, a deep history in the bicycle industry and many riding
> opportunities. Riding in the SCV was a lot of "fun" for me. It would
> not be fun for you because you find road riding scary, bad, etc.,
> etc. If you're not getting run over by a car, you're dying of
> exhaust inhalation.
>

People don't die from that but they can die earlier than necessary, due
to diseases such as lung cancer. Why on earth would I put up with
inhaling Diesel soot and other particles when we have nice singletrack
all over the place? This week I have to get brewing supplies in Folsom.
I might just take the MTB and use some singletrack on the way. It's got
a rack so it won't matter which bike I take, it's just slower and tire
wear is much higher.

Joerg

unread,
Dec 5, 2017, 2:56:41 PM12/5/17
to
On 2017-12-04 18:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 12/4/2017 4:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-12-04 12:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 12/4/2017 2:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-12-03 14:34, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What is causing this bike market downturn?
>>>
>>> It MUST be fake news! You, Joerg, have assured us that by building bike
>>> trails we'd get millions of Americans to give up their cars forever. And
>>> every year, more segregated kiddy paths have been built. Some cities
>>> have doubled their bike mode share, all the way from 0.2% to 0.4%!
>>> That's like a 100% increase!
>>>
>>
>> Sure it is, and for America that is quite big. Weren't you the guy
>> always touting the health benefits? Calculate the health Dollars saved
>> here.
>
> My little suburban village has a population of about 3000.


That hardly needs bike paths. I never advocated building them in such
small communities, just as I'd never be a fan of building one in our
neighborhood where we have enough side streets.

Again, my case for bike paths is on major thoroughfares where it's
almost bumper to bumper during peak hours.


> ... If there were
> a 0.2% increase in bike mode share, that would mean six new riders. For
> a segregated bike path, one million dollars per mile is a bit on the
> cheap side of things.


Tell the folks to learn from the folks in Nebraska how to build those
for much less:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448293/table/t1/


> ... So how much should the village spend on kiddie
> paths to improve the health of six people?
>

Open your horizon and think about all the other communities. Here we
have almost a million people between the Sacramento Valley and the
Sierra Foothills. Probably about 1.5% ride. That's 15000 people.


>>> So I'm not going to believe any biased communist industry data. I _know_
>>> bike sales have skyrocketed! Those bike dealers are not reporting sales
>>> so they can cheat on their taxes.
>>>
>>
>> We were talking about the Silicon Valley. I can imagine that cycling
>> down there isn't exactly fun. Up here in the Sierra foothills bike
>> sales are brisk. Else successes such as these would not happen:
>>
>> http://teamcycleandtscafe.com/contact-about-us/1768830
>>
>> http://www.bisonbikes.com/
>
> So you have two bike shops, one in business for about 12 years, and one
> that just opened? And we're supposed to be impressed?
>

For a community under 20000 people, yes.


> Let's give it a few years. Bike shops come and bike shops go, just like
> other businesses.
>
> Jay mentioned Tom Ritchey, Keith Bontrager, Jim Blackburn, Jim Gentes
> and Mike Sinyard. I can mention Arni Nashbar. All those people did big
> things in the bicycling business. It's weird that you demean them as
> being mere "famous people" but want us to be impressed by a couple tiny
> shops, one of which is still wet behind the ears.
>

I didn't demean anyone. I buy stuff at Nashbar. What I am saying is that
knowing such people isn't important to me.

jbeattie

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Dec 5, 2017, 6:51:40 PM12/5/17
to
It's a hoot. Nothing like a steep banked track. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8eVHE1kcuU Alpenrose is my neighborhood bike track. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CrwptiYYLE You have to go at least 12mph or you fall off the turn. I learned the hard way. I rode there on my track bike and got a slow puncture that manifested in the middle of a turn.

For the BMX set, we have the Lumberyard, inside and out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtRNS0CuVnA


CX at Alpenrose is like a country fair: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDT-_OmWItU&t=2s

Lots to do around here if you're into racing of any kind. This could be YOUR team: http://teambeerpdx.com/

>
> People don't die from that but they can die earlier than necessary, due
> to diseases such as lung cancer. Why on earth would I put up with
> inhaling Diesel soot and other particles when we have nice singletrack
> all over the place? This week I have to get brewing supplies in Folsom.
> I might just take the MTB and use some singletrack on the way. It's got
> a rack so it won't matter which bike I take, it's just slower and tire
> wear is much higher.

Do you know anyone who died of lung cancer related to diesel exhaust inhalation? Not that I'm recommending huffing diesel exhaust, but really, why do you even register this as a risk of ordinary road riding?

Trails are great. Ride your trails. A lot of people like to ride on the road, and the roads can go some spectacular places -- places you could never get by trail, like Bridge of the Gods. http://www.dronestagr.am/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Gorgeous-C.L.-Pano.jpg You can take a boat, however. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=spTfdG8B4CY

-- Jay Beattie.

John B.

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Dec 6, 2017, 2:11:09 AM12/6/17
to
I ride in a city that is always either first or second on the list of
most chaotic traffic in the world. See https://tinyurl.com/y8tgkrgj
and have never found it as terrifying as some of the descriptions I
read here.

My guess is that in fact, in several of the shots the number of two
wheel vehicles is likely greater then the average Usian has ever seen
or imagined.

Certainly most of the photos were taken at stop lights as evidenced by
the motorcycle driver's foot/feet being on the ground but the vehicle
density is not unusual for week day "rush hour".

--
Cheers,

John B.

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