Octalink ES25 replacement?

[Joerg]

The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up, sounds similar to
a hot car engine after it is turned off. It has also develoved an ever
so slight play, just a few mils. It is an Shimano ES25 Octalink.

How long do you guys let that go before replacing?

Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts longer than
5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-11 11:00, Joerg wrote:
> The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up, sounds similar to
> a hot car engine after it is turned off. It has also develoved an ever
> so slight play, just a few mils. It is an Shimano ES25 Octalink.
>
> How long do you guys let that go before replacing?
>
> Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts longer than
> 5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?
>

Add-on: Is the ES300 they recommend as replacement better?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 11:00:27 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up, sounds similar to
> a hot car engine after it is turned off. It has also develoved an ever
> so slight play, just a few mils. It is an Shimano ES25 Octalink.
>
> How long do you guys let that go before replacing?
>
> Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts longer than
> 5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shimano-BB-5500-Bottom-Bracket-Octalink-68mm-x-109-5mm-or-118-5mm-NIB/222477796745?_trkparms=aid%3D555014%26algo%3DPL.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D41376%26meid%3D9690627263f24a40915a940d1e305aaf%26pid%3D100506%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26&_trksid=p2045573.c100506.m3226

Cost three times what the ES25 does and I've never had one fail.

[Joerg]

$40 is perfectly ok. Unfortunately their available spindle lengths do
not fit the ES25. ES300 has very close to the same spindle lengths, I
just don't know whether they are any better than ES25.

[AMuzi]

On 8/11/2017 1:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
> The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up,
> sounds similar to a hot car engine after it is turned off.
> It has also develoved an ever so slight play, just a few
> mils. It is an Shimano ES25 Octalink.
>
> How long do you guys let that go before replacing?
>
> Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts
> longer than 5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?
>

Ensure the arms are not loose on the spindle first.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-11 12:39, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/11/2017 1:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up,
>> sounds similar to a hot car engine after it is turned off.
>> It has also develoved an ever so slight play, just a few
>> mils. It is an Shimano ES25 Octalink.
>>
>> How long do you guys let that go before replacing?
>>
>> Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts
>> longer than 5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?
>>
>
> Ensure the arms are not loose on the spindle first.
>

They are on tight. The play is also a bit sideways. If I keep riding
will it just become gradually worse or can it fail catastrophically in
the middle of nowhere?

On my last Shimano 600 BB I rode until it had about 0.1" play in the
largest chain ring and shifting trim became iffy (old friction shifter
bike). But that was an ajustable BB where I could milk out a second life
by mounting the cranks 180 degrees rotated.

What I don't like on these newfangled BBs is the left side plastic cup.
For the road bike I got a UN-55, only aluminum on the left but at least
not plastic.

[AMuzi]

Since it's shot and since you dislike low quality bearings
and nylon cups, Tom Kunich is right; get a better quality
version of it.

[Joerg]

The BB-5500 Tom suggested doesn't come in the same spindle length. Which
better one could replace the ES25 and is compatible? The ES300 looks
like it also has a plastic cap on the left.

[AMuzi]

What length? The 5500 goes to 118mm besides the regular
110mm and 113mm.

[Joerg]

The ES25 comes in 113mm and 121mm. I haven't taken it apart yet, wanted
to do that when I know what to buy and then order immediately after
disassembly, to minimize downtime.

The BB-5500 I could only find in 109.5mm and 118mm. There were also
warnings that the spindle only accommodates older 9-speed group set cranks:

https://www.excelsports.com/main.asp?page=8&description=105+BB-5500+Bottom+Bracket&vendorCode=SHIM&major=1&minor=6

Quote "The pipe-billet spindle has eight 9mm deep splines and only fits
older Shimano cranks - many of the 9 speed 105 (not all), Ultegra and
Dura-Ace variety". I have a Deore M522 crank set on the MTB.

[John B.]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:00:32 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up, sounds similar to
>a hot car engine after it is turned off. It has also develoved an ever
>so slight play, just a few mils. It is an Shimano ES25 Octalink.
>
>How long do you guys let that go before replacing?
>
>Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts longer than
>5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

I see Octalink bottom brackets for sale for four British pounds :-)
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/cn/en/shimano-es25-octalink-bottom-bracket/rp-prod34653
About $5.00.

Although I also notice that Amazon wants 20-odd dollars for one and
e-bay has them for about $18.00

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-11 16:52, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:00:32 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up, sounds similar to
>> a hot car engine after it is turned off. It has also develoved an ever
>> so slight play, just a few mils. It is an Shimano ES25 Octalink.
>>
>> How long do you guys let that go before replacing?
>>
>> Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts longer than
>> 5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?
>
> I see Octalink bottom brackets for sale for four British pounds :-)
> http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/cn/en/shimano-es25-octalink-bottom-bracket/rp-prod34653
> About $5.00.
>

I saw that as well. It's a clearance item in an odd diameter. $6.99 when
clicking the link in the US. I guess in new-speak that's called "target
group pricing" or something similar :-)

> Although I also notice that Amazon wants 20-odd dollars for one and
> e-bay has them for about $18.00
>

Yep. No problem to just buy one but considering the paltry service life
I would like to know whether there is something better than ES25 at
reasonable cost. Meaning not necessarily a $200+ Phil Woods BB.

I think I've got time. The current BB should hang on another 500-1000mi
until it screeches.

[AMuzi]

Mr Slocumb tried to be helpful with a rough US value.
Today's price of 4.00 Sterling alone is US$5.20:
http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=4&From=GBP&To=USD

Plus US$1.79 delivery! Your delivered price is cheaper than
your cost of postage alone on a BB to England. Get two.

[John B.]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:02:43 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

I've seen the ES25 advertised in 113, 118 and 126 widths.

>The BB-5500 I could only find in 109.5mm and 118mm. There were also
>warnings that the spindle only accommodates older 9-speed group set cranks:
>
>https://www.excelsports.com/main.asp?page=8&description=105+BB-5500+Bottom+Bracket&vendorCode=SHIM&major=1&minor=6
>
>Quote "The pipe-billet spindle has eight 9mm deep splines and only fits
>older Shimano cranks - many of the 9 speed 105 (not all), Ultegra and
>Dura-Ace variety". I have a Deore M522 crank set on the MTB.

I've found that there are differences in Shimano stuff that appear at
first glance to be the exact same part. I bought a 50 tooth chain
ring, after carefully checking the bolt ring diameter, for a Tiagra
crank set. The new "105" chain ring appeared in the shop to be the
same as the Tiagra (with 2 fewer teeth, of course ) but when I came to
install it I found that the outer curves of the "spokes" was not the
same and while it fitted, and worked, it looked a bit odd.

Since then I've made it a point to limit my Shimano parts buying to
buying the correct model parts :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:59:50 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2017-08-11 16:52, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:00:32 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up, sounds similar to
>>> a hot car engine after it is turned off. It has also develoved an ever
>>> so slight play, just a few mils. It is an Shimano ES25 Octalink.
>>>
>>> How long do you guys let that go before replacing?
>>>
>>> Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts longer than
>>> 5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?
>>
>> I see Octalink bottom brackets for sale for four British pounds :-)
>> http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/cn/en/shimano-es25-octalink-bottom-bracket/rp-prod34653
>> About $5.00.
>>
>
>I saw that as well. It's a clearance item in an odd diameter. $6.99 when
>clicking the link in the US. I guess in new-speak that's called "target
>group pricing" or something similar :-)
>

I believe in the grocery store marketing it is called a "loss Leader".

>
>> Although I also notice that Amazon wants 20-odd dollars for one and
>> e-bay has them for about $18.00
>>
>
>Yep. No problem to just buy one but considering the paltry service life
>I would like to know whether there is something better than ES25 at
>reasonable cost. Meaning not necessarily a $200+ Phil Woods BB.
>

Well, Chain Reaction has the ES25 BB for sterling 3.99 and the ES51
for 23.49 so you can change five ES25 BB's for the price of one ES51
:-)

I also see an ES300 for $16.68 and there are also Shimano Dura-Ace
Octalink BB's and although I don't know whether they fit, Dura-Ace is
usually considered as very high quality.

>I think I've got time. The current BB should hang on another 500-1000mi
>until it screeches.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

That is weird, never seen that here in the US. Maybe there is a Thai
model and a US model :-)

>> The BB-5500 I could only find in 109.5mm and 118mm. There were also
>> warnings that the spindle only accommodates older 9-speed group set cranks:
>>
>> https://www.excelsports.com/main.asp?page=8&description=105+BB-5500+Bottom+Bracket&vendorCode=SHIM&major=1&minor=6
>>
>> Quote "The pipe-billet spindle has eight 9mm deep splines and only fits
>> older Shimano cranks - many of the 9 speed 105 (not all), Ultegra and
>> Dura-Ace variety". I have a Deore M522 crank set on the MTB.
>
> I've found that there are differences in Shimano stuff that appear at
> first glance to be the exact same part. I bought a 50 tooth chain
> ring, after carefully checking the bolt ring diameter, for a Tiagra
> crank set. The new "105" chain ring appeared in the shop to be the
> same as the Tiagra (with 2 fewer teeth, of course ) but when I came to
> install it I found that the outer curves of the "spokes" was not the
> same and while it fitted, and worked, it looked a bit odd.
>
> Since then I've made it a point to limit my Shimano parts buying to
> buying the correct model parts :-)

I never cared about the aesthetics of my bikes. As long as it could be
made to fit and work with acceptable reliability it was ok. Which has
also meant using non-bicycle parts on bicycles because those are almost
by default more reliable.

[Tosspot]

The UN-55 is the Canine Wobblers of BBs imho. Cottered, Octalink,
Outboard, have all failed me over the years, but never a UN-55. Ok,
they do eventually wear out with year long commuting, but I reckon on
10-15k miles. That said, the last was on the 10K side of things. Bit
disappointed tbh, but the Shimano outboard ones I used to change
annually and I had stability issues with the Octalink. That said, I
still do have one Octalink, and it seems ok and 3k miles, but them's is
dry miles...

[Joerg]

However, 73mm won't fit which is all they've got and then I'd only have
two paper weights.

But yes, if I can't find anything better than ES25 or ES300 I'll get two
and consider them yet another fast-wear items, along with tires, chains,
cassettes and brake pads.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-11 19:59, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:59:50 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-08-11 16:52, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:00:32 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up, sounds similar to
>>>> a hot car engine after it is turned off. It has also develoved an ever
>>>> so slight play, just a few mils. It is an Shimano ES25 Octalink.
>>>>
>>>> How long do you guys let that go before replacing?
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts longer than
>>>> 5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?
>>>
>>> I see Octalink bottom brackets for sale for four British pounds :-)
>>> http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/cn/en/shimano-es25-octalink-bottom-bracket/rp-prod34653
>>> About $5.00.
>>>
>>
>> I saw that as well. It's a clearance item in an odd diameter. $6.99 when
>> clicking the link in the US. I guess in new-speak that's called "target
>> group pricing" or something similar :-)
>>
>
> I believe in the grocery store marketing it is called a "loss Leader".

I meant different prices for different regions or people. One big player
recently got into trouble for that which netted them a not-so-honorary
mention in the Wall Street Journal.

Then there is dynamic pricing where if you click too often on an item
its price suddenly ratchets up. I immediately head to a competitor if
any store does that to me.

>>
>>> Although I also notice that Amazon wants 20-odd dollars for one and
>>> e-bay has them for about $18.00
>>>
>>
>> Yep. No problem to just buy one but considering the paltry service life
>> I would like to know whether there is something better than ES25 at
>> reasonable cost. Meaning not necessarily a $200+ Phil Woods BB.
>>
> Well, Chain Reaction has the ES25 BB for sterling 3.99 and the ES51
> for 23.49 so you can change five ES25 BB's for the price of one ES51
> :-)
>

I don't care if it's $10, $20 or $30. As long as it fits and I don't
have to change those things like underwear.

> I also see an ES300 for $16.68 and there are also Shimano Dura-Ace
> Octalink BB's and although I don't know whether they fit, Dura-Ace is
> usually considered as very high quality.
>

It may be time to write to Shimano, hoping they'll answer. To me this
flurry of model numbers is confusing and not all are 100% compatible.
The cranks have to fit and the chain line should remain roughly the same.

I was hoping that someone had the same issue with paltry ES25 lifetime
and could tell me "Here, buy that one, lasts a lot longer" (and where it
fits well).

[...]

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I believe that the widest available in the ES-25 is 121. The 5500 is available in a 118 and it's my guess that it would fit right on.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-12 06:54, Tosspot wrote:
> On 11/08/17 22:04, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-08-11 12:39, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 8/11/2017 1:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up, sounds
>>>> similar to a hot car engine after it is turned off. It has also
>>>> develoved an ever so slight play, just a few mils. It is an
>>>> Shimano ES25 Octalink.
>>>>
>>>> How long do you guys let that go before replacing?
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts
>>>> longer than 5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ensure the arms are not loose on the spindle first.
>>>
>>
>> They are on tight. The play is also a bit sideways. If I keep riding
>> will it just become gradually worse or can it fail catastrophically
>> in the middle of nowhere?
>>
>> On my last Shimano 600 BB I rode until it had about 0.1" play in the
>> largest chain ring and shifting trim became iffy (old friction
>> shifter bike). But that was an ajustable BB where I could milk out a
>> second life by mounting the cranks 180 degrees rotated.
>>
>> What I don't like on these newfangled BBs is the left side plastic
>> cup. For the road bike I got a UN-55, only aluminum on the left but
>> at least not plastic.
>
> The UN-55 is the Canine Wobblers of BBs imho. Cottered, Octalink,
> Outboard, have all failed me over the years, but never a UN-55.

I researched a bit on durability and also came up with the UN-55 which I
have now installed in my 1982 road bike. However, the UN-55 is square
taper and my MTB has Deore M522 cranks which are Octalink.


> ... Ok,

> they do eventually wear out with year long commuting, but I reckon on
> 10-15k miles. That said, the last was on the 10K side of things. Bit
> disappointed tbh, but the Shimano outboard ones I used to change
> annually and I had stability issues with the Octalink. That said, I
> still do have one Octalink, and it seems ok and 3k miles, but them's is
> dry miles...
>

My rides are mostly also dry but lots of dust, rock hits into the
cranks, pedals and my feet, plus the occasional creek crossing and rainy
ride.

[Joerg]

I might be able to live with a 3mm chain line offset (have to check the
M591 front derailer though) but the other issue is that they supposedly
only fit older Shimano crank sets because of the 9mm splines:

https://www.excelsports.com/main.asp?page=8&description=105+BB-5500+Bottom+Bracket&vendorCode=SHIM&major=1&minor=6

The cranks have to go on super-snug because I am a low cadence masher
and often ride with a substantial load on the bike.

[Tosspot]

On 12/08/17 16:14, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> I might be able to live with a 3mm chain line offset (have to check the
> M591 front derailer though) but the other issue is that they supposedly
> only fit older Shimano crank sets because of the 9mm splines:
>
> https://www.excelsports.com/main.asp?page=8&description=105+BB-5500+Bottom+Bracket&vendorCode=SHIM&major=1&minor=6
>
> The cranks have to go on super-snug because I am a low cadence masher
> and often ride with a substantial load on the bike.

I would be very wary of 3mm. It may work with a dérailleur setup but on
my hub gears it needs to be the right side of 2mm or aggro ensues.

[Joerg]

Yes, I'd also prefer an exact match. Those 10-speed deals are really
fickle but the more serious MTBs in 2014 weren't available with the good
old 7-speed anymore.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Since this is a road bike BB it's likely that half of the difference is on the left side.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

To tell you the truth, if it were up to me I'd still be riding 8 speeds. Hell, you always shift twice on a 10 speed so it's really a waste of time to have it. But you can't get any new parts such as cassettes in good ratios so I'm stuck with 10 speeds. They did the same damn thing with me with 9 speed parts.

[Joerg]

Same here. I'd like to ratchet the MTB back from 10-speed to 7-speed or
8-speed. However, the largest cog you can get in a reasonably priced
7-speed or 8-speed cassette is 32T. On a 29" bike an older guy like me
needs 36T, especially when schlepping a load along.

I converted the road bike from 6-speed to 7-speed and there a 32T is ok.
Well, for now. I don't want a 10-speed road bike cassette.

[John B.]

In Bangkok, which is very flat, I still ride with down tube shifters
:-) and don't miss not having indexed shifters at all. Today I took a
new route - about 55 Km out and back and other then two bridges over
canals I shifted 3 times. And one of those was because it was hot and
I was getting tired :-)

I can still get 9 speed stuff here, in fact you can still buy 7 speed
stuff although it is the low end Shimano models. I see a lot of new
low end bikes with 7 speed derailers and often twist grip shifters.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 07:03:54 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

wrote:

>On 2017-08-11 19:59, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:59:50 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-08-11 16:52, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:00:32 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up, sounds similar to
>>>>> a hot car engine after it is turned off. It has also develoved an ever
>>>>> so slight play, just a few mils. It is an Shimano ES25 Octalink.
>>>>>
>>>>> How long do you guys let that go before replacing?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts longer than
>>>>> 5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg?
>>>>
>>>> I see Octalink bottom brackets for sale for four British pounds :-)
>>>> http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/cn/en/shimano-es25-octalink-bottom-bracket/rp-prod34653
>>>> About $5.00.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I saw that as well. It's a clearance item in an odd diameter. $6.99 when
>>> clicking the link in the US. I guess in new-speak that's called "target
>>> group pricing" or something similar :-)
>>>
>>
>> I believe in the grocery store marketing it is called a "loss Leader".
>
>
>I meant different prices for different regions or people. One big player
>recently got into trouble for that which netted them a not-so-honorary
>mention in the Wall Street Journal.

Why ever not different prices for different people. My bike shop
certainly does it. If you come in they will charge you one price. If I
come in they charge me 15% less. My guess is that it is not uncommon.

In fact, if we go to an open market, where bargaining is the norm, my
wife will always be quoted a cheaper price then I would. (foreigners
are all rich!)

>Then there is dynamic pricing where if you click too often on an item
>its price suddenly ratchets up. I immediately head to a competitor if
>any store does that to me.
>
>
>>>
>>>> Although I also notice that Amazon wants 20-odd dollars for one and
>>>> e-bay has them for about $18.00
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yep. No problem to just buy one but considering the paltry service life
>>> I would like to know whether there is something better than ES25 at
>>> reasonable cost. Meaning not necessarily a $200+ Phil Woods BB.
>>>
>> Well, Chain Reaction has the ES25 BB for sterling 3.99 and the ES51
>> for 23.49 so you can change five ES25 BB's for the price of one ES51
>> :-)
>>
>
>I don't care if it's $10, $20 or $30. As long as it fits and I don't
>have to change those things like underwear.
>
>
>> I also see an ES300 for $16.68 and there are also Shimano Dura-Ace
>> Octalink BB's and although I don't know whether they fit, Dura-Ace is
>> usually considered as very high quality.
>>
>
>It may be time to write to Shimano, hoping they'll answer. To me this
>flurry of model numbers is confusing and not all are 100% compatible.
>The cranks have to fit and the chain line should remain roughly the same.

Take it to a good bike shop :-) I have a shop in Bangkok and another
in Phuket where they seem to know what they're doing.... as long as I
know enough to ask the right questions, that is.

>
>I was hoping that someone had the same issue with paltry ES25 lifetime
>and could tell me "Here, buy that one, lasts a lot longer" (and where it
>fits well).
>
>[...]

I wonder how popular the Octalink pedals were? I can't remember ever
seeing one on the road, or maybe I didn't look :-) Perhaps they
weren't that common that people talk about them.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[David Scheidt]

John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:

:I can still get 9 speed stuff here, in fact you can still buy 7 speed

:stuff although it is the low end Shimano models. I see a lot of new
:low end bikes with 7 speed derailers and often twist grip shifters.

Seven speed stuff is still available to OEMS (I don't know how much is
available to someone like AMuzi) because it's cheap. Freewheels, not
freehubs, and super low-end everything. All the tooling is paid for
years ago, and they crank it out for the $100 bike market. Its going
to be around for a while, because it's about as complicated as can be
made to work on bikes put together by nimwits. (A cow-orker bought
one from somewhere that had the fork on backwards.)

--
sig 50

[Joerg]

Not just for OEMs. I bought a 7-speed cassette for my road bike on
Amazon. When my last UG freehub crunched out I bought a 7-speed HG
freehub body, also via Amazon. You can also buy shifters and whatever
else you might need, not just from Shimano:

https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Acera-SL-M310-Shifter-7-Speed/dp/B003ZM9RX6

https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Speed-Mountain-Direct-Derailleur/dp/B01A5930R0

https://www.amazon.com/SRAM-Bicycle-Twist-Shifter-7-Speed/dp/B000C15HS2

John, my hat goes off. 110km round trip at your age is great. I don't
know any local guy above 80 who'd even as much as think about doing that.

[Joerg]

Quantity discounts or loyal-customer rebates at a local store are ok.
Often people get 10% of at the LBS if they bought their bike there.
However, if an online retailer changes pricing on people depending on
what their zip code is or a bank sets loan rates based on the color of
one's skin that is a slippery slope.

> In fact, if we go to an open market, where bargaining is the norm, my
> wife will always be quoted a cheaper price then I would. (foreigners
> are all rich!)
>

That is normal. We even had that where I lived in the Netherlands. If
you spoke the language with a local accent (I did) you have an easier
time negotiating a good deal for food items at the open air market.

[...]

>>> I also see an ES300 for $16.68 and there are also Shimano Dura-Ace
>>> Octalink BB's and although I don't know whether they fit, Dura-Ace is
>>> usually considered as very high quality.
>>>
>>
>> It may be time to write to Shimano, hoping they'll answer. To me this
>> flurry of model numbers is confusing and not all are 100% compatible.
>> The cranks have to fit and the chain line should remain roughly the same.
>
> Take it to a good bike shop :-) I have a shop in Bangkok and another
> in Phuket where they seem to know what they're doing.... as long as I
> know enough to ask the right questions, that is.
>
>>
>> I was hoping that someone had the same issue with paltry ES25 lifetime
>> and could tell me "Here, buy that one, lasts a lot longer" (and where it
>> fits well).
>>
>> [...]
>
> I wonder how popular the Octalink pedals were? I can't remember ever
> seeing one on the road, or maybe I didn't look :-) Perhaps they
> weren't that common that people talk about them.

AFAICT they were on all the bikes I looked at in early 2014. What do
bikes in the >$1k range have in Thailand? Square taper is a good system
but I have only seen that on older bikes here like on my 1982 road bike.
I don't know why they went to Octalink. Maybe it saves half a few
hundred milligrams.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I'm sure that you can go to a local bike shop and get 7-8-9 speed cassettes and the like for only twice what you can get them on eBay. If you can find them on eBay.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 7:33:26 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>
> John, my hat goes off. 110km round trip at your age is great. I don't
> know any local guy above 80 who'd even as much as think about doing that.

At John's age a ride down to the coffee shop is great.....

[AMuzi]

Available? Hell it's dominant.

In service, seven chain/seven cassette are the #1 drive
train parts by unit volume, nothing else is close. Six speed
has fallen off the past 5 years. We sell more nine than 8 by
quite a bit.

While I buy 10 or 11 cassettes 2~3 at a time, sevens are box
of 10, regularly, and 7 chain in 50-count box.

[John B.]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2017 09:31:09 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Why? It is almost a normal practice and to my personal experience is
done just about everywhere I've been. In Maine the "summer folks" are
charged more then a "native", in fact this was so common that the term
"summer rate" was commonly used when I lived there. In every Asian
country I've lived in a "white skinned" foreigner was either charged a
higher price or not given as large a discount as a native. It is
probably not politically correct (in the U.S.) to say "white skinned"
although that is a commonly heard description in most Asian countries
:-(

In Phuket, Thailand the Bar Girls even have a "High Season" rate and a
"Low Season" rate. High Season is of course, when the tourists flock
in.

To be honest I don't pay as close attention to new bikes as I might.
Partly, I suppose, because I have three road bikes and a "knock
around" bike, all of which, well with the exception of one road bike
that I built myself, are more then ten years old, one of the road
bikes may be from the 1970's, and I don't lust after something just
because it is new.

But honestly, I can't ever remember seeing either a bike with an
octalink crank or for that matter any octalink parts in shops. Which
of course may only mean that I didn't have my eyes open that day :-)

But as for why they were made, I suspect that like many of the New!
Innovative! Wonderful! things that appear on the market they were
built simply to be New! Innovative! and Wonderful!

Are the modern press in BB bearings an actual improvement? Or are they
just "same old" but in a new style "that we can announce as an
improvement and charge more money for"?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2017 07:33:21 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Well, I guess I ought to take center stage :-) But that was 55Km. for
the round trip "out and back".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Actually not. I have the theory that if you just keep plugging along
you can keep going, and it seems to work. Certainly I am not as fast
as "I used to be", but then, nobody is :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

You have probably been away from the US too long. Discrimination based
on race, gender, ethnicity and so on is a punishable offense here.

> In Phuket, Thailand the Bar Girls even have a "High Season" rate and a
> "Low Season" rate. High Season is of course, when the tourists flock
> in.
>

Setting prices higher or lower is fine as long as that isn't done based
on the looks of who is coming in.

You can't see it unless you have the clerk pull the spec sheet or take a
crank off.

> But as for why they were made, I suspect that like many of the New!
> Innovative! Wonderful! things that appear on the market they were
> built simply to be New! Innovative! and Wonderful!
>
> Are the modern press in BB bearings an actual improvement?

Most definitely not.


> ... Or are they

> just "same old" but in a new style "that we can announce as an
> improvement and charge more money for"?

They are cheap alright but, as unfortunately usual for bike parts, have
a very paltry service life. For the same money my MTB buddy bought a
massive front wheel bearing assembly for his Chevy Express van and they
last hundreds of thousands of miles. Not just 5000.

[Joerg]

Still great. My usual rides aren't much longer than that, around 65km.
As you said in the other post keeping at it is the trick. That is how my
great grandpa made it to almost 103 in good health. He walked miles and
miles every day though his last motorcycle ride was at 95.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

In fact, the word is that they actually get loose in the BB and have to be replace with those screw-in mechanisms such as

https://www.merlincycles.com/praxis-bb30-bottom-bracket-shimano-conversion-93683.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-US&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=Road+Bike+Bottom+Brackets+%26+Cups&ucpo=34224&gclid=Cj0KCQjwlMXMBRC1ARIsAKKGuwhNd0N1U5QjdyKZH3NhwcLIzfagmc8zOcP6pThqeC6rDXAKM0MVuWEaAjrcEALw_wcB

[jbeattie]

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 7:04:10 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

Because you buy shit and expect it to last forever. Octalink was abandoned a decade ago and sucked when it was current production -- as did ISIS and the small bearing BBs with OS spindles.

Quit whining and buy a 105 compact crank with a $16 external bearing BB. Your bike has no historical value and maintaining a bad standard will just bring you back in one or two years with the same complaints -- and the endless comparisons to the longevity of 25lb car parts.

-- Jay Beattie

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Well I have to agree with your idea if not your attitude.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-14 08:51, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 8:29:42 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 7:04:10 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-08-13 17:38, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>>> ... Or are they just "same old" but in a new style "that we can
>>>> announce as an improvement and charge more money for"?
>>>
>>>
>>> They are cheap alright but, as unfortunately usual for bike
>>> parts, have a very paltry service life. For the same money my MTB
>>> buddy bought a massive front wheel bearing assembly for his Chevy
>>> Express van and they last hundreds of thousands of miles. Not
>>> just 5000.
>>
>> Because you buy shit and expect it to last forever. Octalink was
>> abandoned a decade ago and sucked when it was current production --
>> as did ISIS and the small bearing BBs with OS spindles.
>>
>> Quit whining and buy a 105 compact crank with a $16 external
>> bearing BB. Your bike has no historical value and maintaining a bad
>> standard will just bring you back in one or two years with the same
>> complaints -- and the endless comparisons to the longevity of 25lb
>> car parts.
>
> Well I have to agree with your idea if not your attitude.
>

When buying a >$1k mainstream bicycle I expect things to last. People
with external bearings out here fare no better as their BBs also develop
creaks and bearing play after a few thousand miles.

It's similar with road bikes. A friend only buys high-class hubs costing
north of $200 a pop. They don't last longer than mine.

[Frank Krygowski]

You need to move out of that Bermuda-Triangle-hell-hole where everything
breaks, nothing works, everything is dangerous and bicyclists can barely
survive.

Why, oh why, didn't you stay in the nice safe Netherlands?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

If you read more carefully, as suggested often, you'd have noticed that
it isn't broken but simply _worn_ out.

> Why, oh why, didn't you stay in the nice safe Netherlands?
>

Too socialist back in the 80's and thus taxes too high. Besides, regular
bicycle stuff wore out just as bad there as here.

[jbeattie]

Your options: (1) buy another BB and continue on with the crank until you mis-install it and ruin the splines or it breaks. Mine broke -- snapped a crank arm. Good riddance. Move on. (2) Buy a reasonably priced compact crank with outboard bearing BB, or (3) complain incessantly that nothing lasts as long as the $25 alternator you bought at Pep Boys.

If an outboard bearing BB goes south, you buy a new $16 Shimano unit -- one of the greatest values in bicycledom. You can also buy an outboard bearing unit with replaceable 24/37 bearings as was mentioned previously when you groused about disposable BBs. My outboard bearing units were quiet when installed with a little PTFE tape and lasted a long time. My last threaded BB bike, however, broke. BUT, I'm getting a free warranty replacement -- but it will have a BB30. That's no big deal because I have the tools, and I can buy cheap 6806 bearings if I want, or I can buy fancy Enduro bearings.

>
> It's similar with road bikes. A friend only buys high-class hubs costing
> north of $200 a pop. They don't last longer than mine.

Then your friend is a poor shopper. Tell him to buy some Ultegra hubs. Road hubs should last a long time. The M525 MTB rear disc hub died on my commuter, but I think the hub cost me $25, and it was ridden for years in wet weather.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

There is no space down there on the MTB for outboard bearings. Unless
maybe there are fancy cranks for it but that's going to be expensive.
With this thread I was hoping someone could point me to a 1:1
replacement that is better at a reasonably higher cost. Looks like there
isn't so I'll probably just buy several ES25 sets (or maybe ES300 if
they fit) and use them as disposables just like chains and cassettes.

On the road bike the UN-55 I just installed is holding up. Knocking on wood.

>>
>> It's similar with road bikes. A friend only buys high-class hubs
>> costing north of $200 a pop. They don't last longer than mine.
>
> Then your friend is a poor shopper. Tell him to buy some Ultegra
> hubs. Road hubs should last a long time. The M525 MTB rear disc hub
> died on my commuter, but I think the hub cost me $25, and it was
> ridden for years in wet weather.
>

AFAIK he has tried just about anything high-end from Shimano and the hub
he uses now turned out to last the longest. But not forever. I think he
rides more than 10k miles/year and the condition of most roads in
California isn't the greatest. It's usually the rear hub that goes.

[John B.]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 07:04:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Thank the Lord I don't live in the U.S. any more. A place where people
can't say what they think.

>
>> In Phuket, Thailand the Bar Girls even have a "High Season" rate and a
>> "Low Season" rate. High Season is of course, when the tourists flock
>> in.
>>
>
>Setting prices higher or lower is fine as long as that isn't done based
>on the looks of who is coming in.

I can assure you that in just about every Asian country I have lived
in, and that is six of them, you are treated by what you look like. In
fact in some of the countries you are treated not only by how you look
but also by what you sound like.

But why ever not? Do you think that humans aren't clannish? My family
against your family, my village against your village and my nation
against your nation, not to mention my god against your god, seems to
have been the determining factor in human relationships through out
history and is still true today.

Is it really better to be required by law to smile and say, "Yes Sir"
and "No Sir" while all the time thinking "you miserable no good
*whatever*" way down deep inside?

Required by law to be a liar?

However they are much cheaper to manufacture :-)

>
>> ... Or are they
>> just "same old" but in a new style "that we can announce as an
>> improvement and charge more money for"?
>
>
>They are cheap alright but, as unfortunately usual for bike parts, have
>a very paltry service life. For the same money my MTB buddy bought a
>massive front wheel bearing assembly for his Chevy Express van and they
>last hundreds of thousands of miles. Not just 5000.

That is a non sensible response. A front hub assembly for a Chevy
weighs in the neighborhood of 20 lbs... nearly as much as my entire
bicycle.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 07:09:09 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

I think it is the secret to most everything. Just keep going :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

AND! There are a number of you tube films showing how to replace the
actual bearings in those $16 external bearings for a dollar or so.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 09:06:28 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

He must be running Dura-Ace hubs then as from what I see other hubs
are about a quarter the price.

But then, as F. Scott Fitzgerald was supposed to have said, "The rich
are different than you and me".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:31:38 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2017-08-14 10:17, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/14/2017 12:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-08-14 08:51, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 8:29:42 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Quit whining and buy a 105 compact crank with a $16 external
>>>>> bearing BB. Your bike has no historical value and maintaining a bad
>>>>> standard will just bring you back in one or two years with the same
>>>>> complaints -- and the endless comparisons to the longevity of 25lb
>>>>> car parts.
>>>>
>>>> Well I have to agree with your idea if not your attitude.
>>>>
>>>
>>> When buying a >$1k mainstream bicycle I expect things to last. People
>>> with external bearings out here fare no better as their BBs also
>>> develop creaks and bearing play after a few thousand miles.
>>>
>>> It's similar with road bikes. A friend only buys high-class hubs
>>> costing north of $200 a pop. They don't last longer than mine.
>>
>> You need to move out of that Bermuda-Triangle-hell-hole where everything
>> breaks, nothing works, everything is dangerous and bicyclists can barely
>> survive.
>>
>
>If you read more carefully, as suggested often, you'd have noticed that
>it isn't broken but simply _worn_ out.
>

But even a casual look at available You Tube films shows a guy
successfully rebuilding a cartridge BB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lar7mIMmTRE

And another replacing the O.B. model's bearings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hklHC2ae04g

My mother used to say, when I was whining about something, "The Good
Lord helps those who help themselves".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

It's a square taper BB.

> And another replacing the O.B. model's bearings
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hklHC2ae04g
>

That one would not fit my MTB.

> My mother used to say, when I was whining about something, "The Good
> Lord helps those who help themselves".

I have seen such videos when looking for a replacement for my road bike.
As I have mentioned in this thread one of the objectives is not to have
that dreaded plastic left cup anymore. Plastic has IMHO no place in a
high-stress area on a bicycle. For the road bike I could replace with
UN-55. It has an aluminum left cup which isn't ideal but at least not
plastic. So it'll hopefully last longer than 5k miles.

[Joerg]

Gimmee a BB that weighs a pound and lasts forever.

[Joerg]

He said the same thing about those big stinking stogies he regularly lit
and I guess that's not such a good thing. It hasn't killed him but it
has killed many others I knew.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>
> There is no space down there on the MTB for outboard bearings.

There most certainly is. The cranks are recessed for the added width or they are simply wider. They do not start creaking after a short time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction under load.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-15 08:29, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>
>> There is no space down there on the MTB for outboard bearings.
>
> There most certainly is. The cranks are recessed for the added width

> or they are simply wider. ...


Right now there is less than 0.020" clearance so this would require
buying new cranks and throwing out the current ones I have that are
still good (less a tooth here and there but who cares). I'd also have to
try my best to calculate the chain line before ordering, often from
scarce data.


> ... They do not start creaking after a short

> time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction under
> load.
>

I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have helped
replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These weren't much bigger
and they are exposed to way more load and hammering. Fully loaded bike,
rider, tent, food, booze, clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over
rutted trails at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k
miles. They weren't even shot, it was just PM.

If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup isn't plastic
I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was but maybe I am out of luck
for the MTB even though it's a 2103 model year.

[Joerg]

I meant 2013, of course :-)

[AMuzi]

You misunderstood Tom and probably most of our comments
recently.

A crank for square taper has a set of matching BB options.

A spline crank has a different set of options.

One of the many outboard systems has a crank/spindle with
matching bearing/bearing cup protocols.

Each system has recommended parts and then crappier cheaper
aftermarket alternatives and then again pricier better
quality options as well.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-15 14:18, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/15/2017 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-08-15 08:29, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> ... They do not start creaking after a short
>>> time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction
>>> under
>>> load.
>>>
>>
>> I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have
>> helped replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These
>> weren't much bigger and they are exposed to way more load
>> and hammering. Fully loaded bike, rider, tent, food, booze,
>> clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over rutted trails
>> at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k miles.
>> They weren't even shot, it was just PM.
>>
>> If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup
>> isn't plastic I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was
>> but maybe I am out of luck for the MTB even though it's a
>> 2103 model year.
>>
>
> You misunderstood Tom and probably most of our comments recently.
>
> A crank for square taper has a set of matching BB options.
>
> A spline crank has a different set of options.
>
> One of the many outboard systems has a crank/spindle with matching
> bearing/bearing cup protocols.
>
> Each system has recommended parts and then crappier cheaper aftermarket
> alternatives and then again pricier better quality options as well.
>

I think I understood it. It means if I go outboard I need new cranks
which is something I might do later (when the current ones are shot).
Then the challenge will be to find a combination of outboard BB plus
crank set that will result in the same chain line as my current Shimano
ES25 and M522 and offers 42/32/24T or something close.

My MTB buddy has a titanium hardtail with outboard bearings. The cranks
don't look much different from mine but his frame is. IOW it's not that
his small chain ring is cradling the right-side outboard bearing, which
is what I'd need.

[jbeattie]

Replacement may be sooner than you think. The "ticking" you described in your original post and "slight play" is typical of smashed splines in the crank. You may have a crank problem rather than a BB problem -- or both. Had you removed and re-installed the crank recently? Before you dump money on a new BB, try tightening the hell out of the crank and see what happens. If the ticking and slop goes away and then comes back, your splines are shot.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

+1
That was my first reply in this thread.

[John B.]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 07:14:22 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

You seem to have a multitude of reasons why you cannot undertake
something that other's have successfully accomplished... and posted a
video showing how to do it.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:24:49 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

You keep talking about that plastic cup. Is this because you *think*
it might fail or because it *has* failed? I suspect the former as had
it actually failed you would have trumpeted the fact to the Heavens.

Mr. Muzi probably has more experience with those cartridge BB's then
(again) probably the rest of the group combined. I wonder whether he
might care to comment on the frequency, in his experience, that those
plastic cups fail?

Of course Mr. Muzi is not from California and I'm sure he doesn't
spend all his time drinking home brewed beer, but still, his
experiences might prove informative.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

You are correct. Nylon cups, while ugly and inexpensive
(perhaps a feature, maybe merely declasse) are much less
trouble than steel or aluminum cups. They don't move,
corrode or crack as metal cups sometimes do /in extremis/ .

[John B.]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:47:56 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Quite obviously you need to match the BB to the crank set. A square
tapered BB, for example, won't fit an Octalink crank set.

As for the chain line, that you worry so much about, those clever
little Nipponese have already designed and are making their external
bearing crank sets to provide the same chain line as their previous
BB's and crank sets provide.

>My MTB buddy has a titanium hardtail with outboard bearings. The cranks
>don't look much different from mine but his frame is. IOW it's not that
>his small chain ring is cradling the right-side outboard bearing, which
>is what I'd need.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

That ship sailed when you got Octalink. Square drive -- maybe, but it would require maintenance. Any sealed unit (internal or external bearing) will fail after a period of time -- sometimes a very long period.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

When buying an MTB that isn't completely custom-assembled there isn't
much choice.


> ... Square drive -- maybe, but

> it would require maintenance. Any sealed unit (internal or external
> bearing) will fail after a period of time -- sometimes a very long
> period.
>

I now have a sealed UN-55 BB in my road bike which has square taper
cranks. So far there were adjustable Shimano 600 BBs in there but those
have become unobtanium, at least at reasonable prices.

[Joerg]

I have not seen those fail but lot of other plastic parts on bicycles.
Many of which I then replaced with aluminum.

>> Mr. Muzi probably has more experience with those cartridge BB's then
>> (again) probably the rest of the group combined. I wonder whether he
>> might care to comment on the frequency, in his experience, that those
>> plastic cups fail?
>>
>> Of course Mr. Muzi is not from California and I'm sure he doesn't
>> spend all his time drinking home brewed beer, but still, his
>> experiences might prove informative.
>
>
> You are correct. Nylon cups, while ugly and inexpensive (perhaps a
> feature, maybe merely declasse) are much less trouble than steel or
> aluminum cups. They don't move, corrode or crack as metal cups sometimes
> do /in extremis/ .
>

Thanks. Then I'll just rip the thing out and replace it with another
ES25. And then 5k miles later another ...

[Joerg]

I can literally see the shaft move, with cranks solidly attached. When
taking the chain off and rotating without any load the thing already
makes noises. That BB is clearly on the way out. I wanted to keep it in
so I can ride until I know whether there is a better ES25-type cartridge
but it seems there isn't.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

You know it just occurred to me that the Shimano 105 5503 BB is 118.5 according to Sheldon Brown.

He also has a picture of V1, V2 and ISIS splines so that you can see what the heck you actually have.

[Doug Landau]

Other's what? Other's wives? Other's children? Please be specific. And which other?

[AMuzi]

It's generic, as in 'The Other', a concept without which
English and Afro Am Lit departments would have died a
merciful death long ago.

[Frank Krygowski]

Poor Joerg.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 06:33:41 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

wrote:

>On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 7:16:29 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-08-14 18:37, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 07:04:07 -0700, Joerg
>>>> <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

<much snipped >

>>> Gimmee a BB that weighs a pound and lasts forever.
>>
>> That ship sailed when you got Octalink.
>
>
>When buying an MTB that isn't completely custom-assembled there isn't
>much choice.
>
>
>> ... Square drive -- maybe, but
>> it would require maintenance. Any sealed unit (internal or external
>> bearing) will fail after a period of time -- sometimes a very long
>> period.
>>
>
>I now have a sealed UN-55 BB in my road bike which has square taper
>cranks. So far there were adjustable Shimano 600 BBs in there but those
>have become unobtanium, at least at reasonable prices.

Seek and thou shall find:
http://tinyurl.com/yapw9ats
US$2.42
Or a complete set with bearings, spindle and a wrench US$ 24.03

I think I have written about talking to a Chinese wholesaler at a
trade show here who would, in volume, supply the three piece BB's for
US$1.00 each.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 06:35:57 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

At a cost of $0.004296 a mile.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Gee, here we were talking about bicycles and here you jump in with
wives and kids. Is it that you don't read well? Or just don't
comprehend what you read?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

All my bikes were "custom assembled". Some more then once :-) New
wheels, new crank set, new hand;e bars, new seat..... the list just
goes on and on.

But thanks to Joerg I no longer answer, "Yup, did it myself" when
someone asks me something like did I replaced the seat. Now when asked
"Oh! How did you get that new seat?" I reply, "custom assembled".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

Sort of OT, but I discovered my Cannondale CX commuter bike frame was broken while cleaning it on my work stand, so I just stripped off the parts and continued cleaning the frame to get it ready to take back to the local dealer. I took it back and was called later because the Cannondale rep wanted to see the "whole bike" to make sure it hadn't been crashed, etc. So, I ended up taking pictures of the parts -- which, except for the shifters and cable discs, we're all replacements. The OE Truvativ Isis crank was crap. I was going through ISIS BBs like Kleenex. That got replaced. The bars broke on my way to work (Cinelli). The stem was too short. The rear derailleur wore out. The OE Cannondale hubs wore out in less than two years -- they had shitty, draggy seals and open bearings that couldn't hack all the wet weather. I built a new set of wheels including a generator front wheel. I changed the seatpost and saddle. I'm on a Cinelli saddle from 1976 -- great saddle -- and a Thompson post. The OE seat post and Fizik saddle is on my son's CAAD 9 and is worn out. I threw in a new headset at year ten.

I should be like Joerg and complain about spending money on replacements. My crappy ISIS BB didn't last a lifetime! ISIS was the only thing worse than Octalink.

BTW, the pictures of all the non-OE stuff were good enough. My new frame is in. Warranty replacement after 12 years -- free of charge. That's my fifth (?) Cannondale replacement since 1984. It's going to hang on the wall for a while since I already bought a replacement. My next big purchase will be replacement for my roof-rack catastrophe SuperSix. That's underway -- a Trek direct from my friends at the company. I've totally shifted brand loyalty.

Buy stuff! Keep the economy strong!

-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I think that as stiff as the new types of bikes are that they simply break themselves apart on the bad road conditions. I have a road I ride on and it has sections of old pavement interspersed with new. Rolling from one to the other on my aluminum or carbon bikes was an entirely new experience from a steel bike.

I've gotten used to the steel bikes now and they feel like they hit bumps hard but they don't throw me off the saddle or demand that I get up off the saddle like the carbon bikes did. I no longer trust in "new" and "modern".

[jbeattie]

Aluminum has a fatigue life, but I figure 12 years of hard use followed by a free replacement is pretty good.

>
> I've gotten used to the steel bikes now and they feel like they hit bumps hard but they don't throw me off the saddle or demand that I get up off the saddle like the carbon bikes did. I no longer trust in "new" and "modern".

I was riding my old CAAD 9 while visiting my son in SLC last weekend. It's his second bike and my go-to bike when visiting. It's a lively frame that is very steel-like -- except the weight. It is definitely more forgiving in the front-end than my last Columbus SP frame.

At one point riding with my son, I thought the CAAD 9 was too limber in the front end when I got a nasty speed wobble at about 60mph -- but then I realized that I was just terrified and stiff through the shoulders and was causing my own problems. I put my knees against the top tube and relaxed my shoulders and the bike railed the rest of the downhill. I do lots of descending around here, but its mostly twisty and steep and often not that long. It's like slalom skiing where you shell speed in the corners. Around SLC, you can hit these long open 7-8% descents where you can hit terminal velocity -- which was an adjustment for me.

The twisting canyons around SLC are like riding around here except they're two or three times as long and some are super-narrow -- like driveway narrow. You can't pick up that much speed unless you're wiling to take a chance encountering a car on the other side of a blind corner -- or go flying off a cliff. On the big canyons with wider roads, the descents can be scary because of the high volume of car traffic. It seems that driving on mountain roads is a weekend pastime for people in SLC -- and so is riding. Some of the easier routes (up Emigration Canyon) looked like ant trails of cyclists. It was impressive.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

http://mikesbikes.com/product/shimano-5500-5503-105-v1-spline-octalink-3266.htm

We even have a Mike's Bikes in Folsom in easy cycling reach but the 5500
series has shorter splines.

> He also has a picture of V1, V2 and ISIS splines so that you can see
> what the heck you actually have.
>

The ES25 is V2.

http://media.chainreactioncycles.com/is/image/ChainReactionCycles/prod34653_Black_NE_01?wid=500&hei=505

[Joerg]

Oh, the cost of that won't matter. It's the hassle of having to crack
out the wrenches for that so often. And cleaning the MTB down there
where the horse poop and all tends to cake up.

[Joerg]

Which will last what? Three rides?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/17/2017 7:19 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I think that as stiff as the new types of bikes are that they simply break themselves apart on the bad road conditions.

That can't be! They're "stiff but compliant"! Just read the reviews! ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

And here you guys razz me for being too critical of the quality of
bicycle parts. In the automotive world a manufacturer with such failure
rates would be our business prontissimo.

Imagine you were a car commuter and the equivalent happened with your
car. The drive shafts conks out in due course, you go through universal
joints like Kleenex, the steering wheel breaks, then the transmission
wears out, in less than two years the wheel bearings start singing the
blues. Oh, and then the car's chassis develops a big fat crack at a
structurally critical location. A car owner would be up in arms about
that. Yet with bicycles we are expected to find this perfectly normal?

>>> BTW, the pictures of all the non-OE stuff were good enough. My
>>> new frame is in. Warranty replacement after 12 years -- free of
>>> charge. That's my fifth (?) Cannondale replacement since 1984.
>>> It's going to hang on the wall for a while since I already bought
>>> a replacement. My next big purchase will be replacement for my
>>> roof-rack catastrophe SuperSix. That's underway -- a Trek direct
>>> from my friends at the company. I've totally shifted brand
>>> loyalty.
>>
>> I think that as stiff as the new types of bikes are that they
>> simply break themselves apart on the bad road conditions. I have a
>> road I ride on and it has sections of old pavement interspersed
>> with new. Rolling from one to the other on my aluminum or carbon
>> bikes was an entirely new experience from a steel bike.
>

I prefer steel. I am wondering what will happen to the many CX bikes and
MTBs made with carbon frames. Those that haven't turned into garage
queens but see a few thousand hard miles per year like my bicycles do.

> Aluminum has a fatigue life, but I figure 12 years of hard use
> followed by a free replacement is pretty good.
>

It depends. Aircraft frames can endure 30+ years without major
structural replacements unless the owner let corrosion fester. My
aluminum frame MTB impresses me by how stiff and robust the frame is (a
reason why I bought that particular model). Not even a dent underneath
the fat down tube where all the rocks hit. Rocks that when they hit my
shins make the blood flow.

>>
>> I've gotten used to the steel bikes now and they feel like they hit
>> bumps hard but they don't throw me off the saddle or demand that I
>> get up off the saddle like the carbon bikes did. I no longer trust
>> in "new" and "modern".
>
> I was riding my old CAAD 9 while visiting my son in SLC last weekend.
> It's his second bike and my go-to bike when visiting. It's a lively
> frame that is very steel-like -- except the weight. It is definitely
> more forgiving in the front-end than my last Columbus SP frame.
>
> At one point riding with my son, I thought the CAAD 9 was too limber
> in the front end when I got a nasty speed wobble at about 60mph --
> but then I realized that I was just terrified and stiff through the
> shoulders and was causing my own problems.

I get antsy if the speedometer climbs reaches around 45mph. It did
yesterday. The speed limit was .. <ahem> .. 25mph.


> ... I put my knees against the

> top tube and relaxed my shoulders and the bike railed the rest of the
> downhill. I do lots of descending around here, but its mostly twisty
> and steep and often not that long. It's like slalom skiing where you
> shell speed in the corners. Around SLC, you can hit these long open
> 7-8% descents where you can hit terminal velocity -- which was an
> adjustment for me.
>

And then the front tire decides to have a side wall blow-out ...

> The twisting canyons around SLC are like riding around here except
> they're two or three times as long and some are super-narrow -- like
> driveway narrow. You can't pick up that much speed unless you're
> wiling to take a chance encountering a car on the other side of a
> blind corner -- or go flying off a cliff. On the big canyons with
> wider roads, the descents can be scary because of the high volume of
> car traffic. It seems that driving on mountain roads is a weekend
> pastime for people in SLC -- and so is riding. Some of the easier
> routes (up Emigration Canyon) looked like ant trails of cyclists. It
> was impressive.
>

This cornering stuff concerned me a bit ever since I was a kid. One kid
in our town over-cooked a curve on dirt, went over a cliff, sailed 100ft
or so in free fall and died. Hopefully on impact and not after a lot of
suffering.

[John B.]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 07:21:47 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

But a pressure washer (and use it intelligently). But I wonder about
your experience with "horse poop" as we had horses when I was a kid
and later my father kept two "quarter horses". Horse manure, in
comparison with other animals seemed quite benign. It tends to roll
rather than splatter when you kick it :-0

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 07:22:59 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

I have no idea, but given that, according to what I read, China makes
60% of the world's bicycles, and 86% of the bicycles sold in the U.S.,
I suspect that it is a bit more then three rides.

Shimano, for example, has a major factory in China so very possible
your ES25 bottom brackets could have been made there.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/17/2017 7:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> I should be like Joerg and complain about spending money on
>>>> replacements. My crappy ISIS BB didn't last a lifetime! ISIS was
>>>> the only thing worse than Octalink.
>>>>
>
> And here you guys razz me for being too critical of the quality of
> bicycle parts. In the automotive world a manufacturer with such failure
> rates would be our business prontissimo.
>
> Imagine you were a car commuter and the equivalent happened with your
> car. The drive shafts conks out in due course, you go through universal
> joints like Kleenex, the steering wheel breaks, then the transmission
> wears out, in less than two years the wheel bearings start singing the
> blues. Oh, and then the car's chassis develops a big fat crack at a
> structurally critical location. A car owner would be up in arms about
> that. Yet with bicycles we are expected to find this perfectly normal?

There are choices, Joerg. You (like most of us here) choose to buy sport
bikes - that is, bikes that compete in the market by trying to be fairly
lightweight, bikes that use "innovative" designs for components, bikes
designed for higher performance or off-road banging about.

You have the opportunity to buy bikes with much stouter components. Buy
yourself one of the upright Dutch utility bikes! Every part of it would
probably last much longer than what you chose to buy. Yes, it may weigh
50 pounds, but you've repeatedly told us you don't care about weight.

You're like a guy who buys an Alfa Romeo and complains that it's more
fragile than his neighbor's dump truck.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 16:13:22 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:19:21 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:26:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 6:56:17 PM UTC-7, John B.
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:08:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/16/2017 9:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:
>
>
>It depends. Aircraft frames can endure 30+ years without major
>structural replacements unless the owner let corrosion fester. My
>aluminum frame MTB impresses me by how stiff and robust the frame is (a
>reason why I bought that particular model). Not even a dent underneath
>the fat down tube where all the rocks hit. Rocks that when they hit my
>shins make the blood flow.
>

That isn't true as aircraft undergo almost continuous inspections and
any damage is immediately repaired. The B-52H, for example, which was
built starting in 1961 had a major structural modification of the wing
structure in 1964. The DC-3 (C-47) which was used for the initial "gun
ships" in Vietnam days had literally thousands of modification orders.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 07:21:47 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Yup, it certainly is a hassle to check the bike. One can sympathize.
Of course a casual look occasionally might have prevented some or all
of your many problems.

As a 1.5mm, 1 x 19, stainless, cable has a Minimum breaking load (MBL)
of 190 kg. or 480 lbs. your famous account of the breaking brake cable
was undoubtedly due to a lack of maintenance.

As for how much more wonderful your automobile is, my wife just took
here small Honda in for it's routine checkup. 66,466 Km and the cost
of repairs was US$425.00. Never been driven off the road, only driven
by an old lady of 75 and never crashed or wrecked.

The major problems were both lower, front, suspension members, "wings"
the Honda book has it, required replacing and both rear hub bearings
were bad.

I might add that the main reason for the size of the bill is that they
no longer repair anything. The rear hub bearings (front wheel drive)
were rough so they replaced the entire hub. When I asked why not just
change the bearings they told me that Honda's policy, and the parts
stocked, required a hub replacement.

In terms of your bicycle that would be equal to replacing the front
fork and both wheel hubs. But since the practice is not to repair the
bits and pieces simply replace the entire member it would have been
the front forks and both wheels.

Yes Sir! Auto's are better.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

My wife has a Nissan that gets recalled about every six months. Small things that don't affect its operation, but still requires a shop visit.

My expectations for a 20lb bike are different than a 2,000lb car -- and I always change out OE parts just because I have preferences. I changed out the Truvativ crank because ISIS sucked, but I also wanted different chainrings. Other things wore out or broke, which is the story of my life. I don't get outraged. I get replacements.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

mmmmm, electric Gatling guns...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKOrpyO0z48

skip to 1:30

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The carbon fiber crowd simply go crazy if you so much as imply that a CF bike can break. So I show them all of the photos of CF bikes that have simply broken into pieces and ask them to show me all of these broken steel bikes. So they return with a couple of photos of old cheap steel bikes. On with a broken drive side chain stay and another with a seat tube broken at the bottom bracket. I doubt that either of these would lose control unless you were doing something remarkably bad with a Schwinn or Diamondback. Oh, and a photo of an old Cannondale again with the seat tube broken at the bottom bracket high enough that I doubt it even affected stability.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:13:19 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

Joerg - that's a false comparison. Cars are not designed for the ultimate in light weight. A car brake disk is 3/8" thick and can be refaced several times. A bicycle disk must be replaced in total the first time it gets any grooves in it or if it has heat distortion.

The engine, transmission and differential all are in lubrication baths. Wheel bearings and such are two to three times heavier than the maximum calculated loads.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

It's my understanding that Shimano only manufactures 105 through DuraAce in Japan and anything below that is make in China. While it doesn't work as good as the top level parts it seems to last as long to me.

[AMuzi]

Significant Shimano production is in Malaysia just as
significant Campagnolo production is in Romania.

[Joerg]

We jumped out of the Dornier DO-27. Until it was 30 years old it never
had needed structural repairs. Just engine TBO and the usual stuff. The
only reason that this aircraft in perfect shape had to be retired from
commercial service was that the manufacturer was not willing to bless
the fuselage past the 30-year mark.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-17 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/17/2017 7:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I should be like Joerg and complain about spending money on
>>>>> replacements. My crappy ISIS BB didn't last a lifetime! ISIS was
>>>>> the only thing worse than Octalink.
>>>>>
>>
>> And here you guys razz me for being too critical of the quality of
>> bicycle parts. In the automotive world a manufacturer with such
>> failure rates would be our business prontissimo.
>>
>> Imagine you were a car commuter and the equivalent happened with your
>> car. The drive shafts conks out in due course, you go through
>> universal joints like Kleenex, the steering wheel breaks, then the
>> transmission wears out, in less than two years the wheel bearings
>> start singing the blues. Oh, and then the car's chassis develops a big
>> fat crack at a structurally critical location. A car owner would be up
>> in arms about that. Yet with bicycles we are expected to find this
>> perfectly normal?
>
> There are choices, Joerg. You (like most of us here) choose to buy sport
> bikes - that is, bikes that compete in the market by trying to be fairly
> lightweight, bikes that use "innovative" designs for components, bikes
> designed for higher performance or off-road banging about.
>

Since when is a XC MTB a sport bike? Also, I have an SUV, a _sport_
utility vehicle. In over 20 years not even a bulb in a dome light has
ever dared to burn out.

> You have the opportunity to buy bikes with much stouter components. Buy
> yourself one of the upright Dutch utility bikes! Every part of it would
> probably last much longer than what you chose to buy. Yes, it may weigh
> 50 pounds, but you've repeatedly told us you don't care about weight.
>

Having lived in the Netherlands I have ridden those. Guess what, they
broke. The first thing I thoroughly crunched was ... the BB. All the way
so riding home had become immpossible.

> You're like a guy who buys an Alfa Romeo and complains that it's more
> fragile than his neighbor's dump truck.
>

Nope. I'd never buy an Alfa, that's not for me. Just like I won't buy
some super-light carbon fiber deal for a bicycle.