Chain Stretch

[John B.]

I've been thinking about chain wear, sometimes called chain stretch,
and have done a bit of research on the subject.

One method is to lay the chain on a flat surface and measure the wear
over, perhaps 12 inches of chain length, from the head of one pin to
another. But modern multi speed chains are a bit more complex then the
old fashioned chains and the rollers on a modern chain are not
supported by the pins but by protrusions on the inner surface of the
inner links thus does the distance from roller to roller relate to
distance from pin to pin?

Another method is to ignore the pin to pin distance and simply measure
the roller to roller distance using a chain gauge. But I have also
read that when comparing roller to roller measurement to pin to pin
measurement there is not necessarily a correlation, or in other words
a pin to pin measurement might show one thing while the roller to
roller might show a totally different wear pattern. In addition I read
that in at least one case the roller to roller wear was not constant
and varied from place to place in the length of the chain

Brandt, I believe, wrote a treatise on chain measuring gauges and
argued that nearly all of them gave an incorrect figure for wear, or
perhaps, did it the wrong way.

So the question is what is the best system to use to avoid unnecessary
sprocket wear, assuming that sprockets cost more and are more trouble
to change than chains.

There seems to be three options. One, to use a ruler and measure from
pin to pin. Two to use a chain tool and measure from roller to roller.
Or three, to use some combination of the two.

Or perhaps there is a fourth - ignore the whole thing as a tempest in
a tea pot :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Interrupted sideplate chain does indeed wear faster than
full roller chain. However both economy of manufacture and
side flex (for index shifting) are better with interrupted
sideplates.

Generally, chain wear is measured with enough tension to
take up any slack, not merely laid out on a table.

The outer plates are joined by the rivet. The innies float
and exhibit wear. By measuring 24 rivets' worth of slop we
can effectively get an expanded 'vernier scale' of the very
small per-rivet clearance change. Since our functional
aspect for chain-to-sprocket efficiency is pitch, a
rivet-t-rivet measurement seems right to me and all our
gauges here measure that.

See section #8d.2 here:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Dennis Davis]

In article <e77nrc5497264mirq...@4ax.com>,
John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

>There seems to be three options. One, to use a ruler and measure from
>pin to pin. Two to use a chain tool and measure from roller to roller.
>Or three, to use some combination of the two.
>
>Or perhaps there is a fourth - ignore the whole thing as a tempest in
>a tea pot :-)

Chains are half an inch pitch. Put the chain under tension and
measure 24 links. At 12 and one eighth inches you're looking at 1%
elongation and you're likely to need to replace both the chain and
sprockets at the same time. At 12 and one sixteenth inches you're
at 0.5% elongation and you're likely to just need to replace the
chain.

Looks like I need to replace both the sprockets and chain on my
hybrid bike :-(

If your chainstays are short, you may need to measure just 20 links
and work with tenths and twentieths for the elongation.

Bear in mind that most riders will mainly use a few sprockets.
Those at the extreme end of the cassette get less use. You may find
the much used sprockets will not run well with a new chain even if
the old chain did not appear to have worn too much.
--
Dennis Davis <denni...@fastmail.fm>

[avag...@gmail.com]

cure or find dry seasoned 1x4 or 6 ...poss in thick 1.25 hardwood longer than your chain

mark a new chain's length.

measure stretch cleaning, and removing, chain, lubricate n let vertically hang into a container catching drips for 24-36 hours.

measure total chain stretch divide into whatever , 2 feet, of average stretch or ...including the new chain measure.

[Duane]

https://www.amazon.ca/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=bicycle+chain+wear+tool&tag=googcana-20&index=aps&hvadid=208346322668&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13827340633815939725&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000441&hvtargid=kwd-488064943832&ref=pd_sl_9msfsi9pxm_b

[Frank Krygowski]

I vote for "tempest in a tea pot."

I understand that measuring pin to pin might give slightly different
results than measuring using a chain gauge. But ISTM the difference
must be minimal. If (say) your standard for chain replacement is 1/2%,
and pin-to-pin gives 0.6% while chain gauge gave just under 0.5%,
wouldn't it usually be sensible to replace the chain anyway?

BTW, as Andrew said, I think it's worth while to put tension on the
chain, not lay it out on a table. If the chain's off, perhaps hanging it
from a nail would do. I measure mine on the bike and apply tension by
blocking the rear wheel while applying a little force to the cranks.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2017-09-15 05:59, Dennis Davis wrote:
> In article <e77nrc5497264mirq...@4ax.com>,
> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> There seems to be three options. One, to use a ruler and measure from
>> pin to pin. Two to use a chain tool and measure from roller to roller.
>> Or three, to use some combination of the two.
>>
>> Or perhaps there is a fourth - ignore the whole thing as a tempest in
>> a tea pot :-)
>
> Chains are half an inch pitch. Put the chain under tension and
> measure 24 links. At 12 and one eighth inches you're looking at 1%
> elongation and you're likely to need to replace both the chain and
> sprockets at the same time. At 12 and one sixteenth inches you're
> at 0.5% elongation and you're likely to just need to replace the
> chain.
>

That's how I monitor it. Why buy a chain gauge when one already has a
sufficiently long ruler? After I clean a chain and before lubing it I
put a little pull on the chain by leaning my hand on a pedal, then hold
the ruler with the 0" mark to a link edge and read the value 12" down
the chain. I let my chains to about 0.8% which IME still allows same
cassette use. One chain accidentally went to 1% on a long hilly and very
dirty MTB ride (with KMC X10.93 it seems the wear accelerates a lot
towards the end) and that ruined the cassette.

> Looks like I need to replace both the sprockets and chain on my
> hybrid bike :-(
>
> If your chainstays are short, you may need to measure just 20 links
> and work with tenths and twentieths for the elongation.
>
> Bear in mind that most riders will mainly use a few sprockets.
> Those at the extreme end of the cassette get less use. You may find
> the much used sprockets will not run well with a new chain even if
> the old chain did not appear to have worn too much.
>

With many the cogs can be turned around which requires dremeling off
part of the wider spline for HG cassettes. Fast shifting is gone then
but on a road bike that never mattered much to me.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Tim McNamara]

On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 16:48:59 +0700, John B <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've been thinking about chain wear, sometimes called chain stretch,
> and have done a bit of research on the subject.

...snip...

> So the question is what is the best system to use to avoid unnecessary
> sprocket wear, assuming that sprockets cost more and are more trouble
> to change than chains.
>
> There seems to be three options. One, to use a ruler and measure from
> pin to pin. Two to use a chain tool and measure from roller to roller.
> Or three, to use some combination of the two.

Before I check the other answers: I use a chain measuring tool that goes
betweenthe rollers. This is on the assumption that what the cog teeth
see is the rollers, not the pins. I am assuming that the designers of
the tools (I have two, a Park and a Rollhof) took into account that the
tools measure two rollers at once, which may double the wear measurement
as the two rollers are being pushed in opposite directions. IIRC this
was Jobst's complaint about chain checkers.

[avag...@gmail.com]

I use a steel rule from Nbar with a spoke oblongness looking a lot lie the new tick puller.

the 1x6 is marked at foot or mm intervals whereon chain is laid aside.

calling your attention the the unfortunate fact the new chain has 4 ruined links

in chain's midsection.

reach for the pins you stocked last year n a moderately worn best section of stocked used chain....also found with the board.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 6:25:31 AM UTC-7, duane wrote:
>
> https://www.amazon.ca/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=bicycle+chain+wear+tool&tag=googcana-20&index=aps&hvadid=208346322668&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13827340633815939725&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000441&hvtargid=kwd-488064943832&ref=pd_sl_9msfsi9pxm_b

Are you insinuating that the people that build chains might have a good idea of how to test them? For shame! That's for people like Frank to do.

[Doug Landau]

With chains getting ever more expensive, how do you prevent chain theft when out and about?

[Duane]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> On 2017-09-15 05:59, Dennis Davis wrote:
>> In article <e77nrc5497264mirq...@4ax.com>,
>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> There seems to be three options. One, to use a ruler and measure from
>>> pin to pin. Two to use a chain tool and measure from roller to roller.
>>> Or three, to use some combination of the two.
>>>
>>> Or perhaps there is a fourth - ignore the whole thing as a tempest in
>>> a tea pot :-)
>>
>> Chains are half an inch pitch. Put the chain under tension and
>> measure 24 links. At 12 and one eighth inches you're looking at 1%
>> elongation and you're likely to need to replace both the chain and
>> sprockets at the same time. At 12 and one sixteenth inches you're
>> at 0.5% elongation and you're likely to just need to replace the
>> chain.
>>
>
> That's how I monitor it. Why buy a chain gauge when one already has a
> sufficiently long ruler? After I clean a chain and before lubing it I
> put a little pull on the chain by leaning my hand on a pedal, then hold
> the ruler with the 0" mark to a link edge and read the value 12" down
> the chain. I let my chains to about 0.8% which IME still allows same
> cassette use. One chain accidentally went to 1% on a long hilly and very

> dirty MTB ride (with KMC X10.93 it seems the wear accelerates a lot y

> towards the end) and that ruined the cassette.
>

I assume you don't use 11 speed chains. .8 would mean your cassette was
likely shot.
I used to use a ruler pin to pin test but this doesn't really tell you if
the rollers are sloppy. A cheap chain gauge will test that.

>
>> Looks like I need to replace both the sprockets and chain on my
>> hybrid bike :-(
>>
>> If your chainstays are short, you may need to measure just 20 links
>> and work with tenths and twentieths for the elongation.
>>
>> Bear in mind that most riders will mainly use a few sprockets.
>> Those at the extreme end of the cassette get less use. You may find
>> the much used sprockets will not run well with a new chain even if
>> the old chain did not appear to have worn too much.
>>
>
> With many the cogs can be turned around which requires dremeling off
> part of the wider spline for HG cassettes. Fast shifting is gone then
> but on a road bike that never mattered much to me.

Yeah but you're a unique individual when it comes to what matters to you.
Sloppy shifting is not something I would put up with to save a few bucks.
Certainly not if it means hacking my cogs with a Dremel tool.


--
duane

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/15/2017 7:45 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
>
> With chains getting ever more expensive, how do you prevent chain theft when out and about?

With a lock and chain, of course.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Yup, Brandt (in all his glory :-)

I've been using an 18" stainless scale (ruler) which assuming a 1%
wear limit is 3/16". (old eyes need big marks :-)

I recently came across another chain measuring scheme that seemed to
make good sense. Simply pull on the chain at the front of the chain
ring forwards to see how much it moves away from the sprocket teeth.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 07:56:27 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2017-09-15 05:59, Dennis Davis wrote:
>> In article <e77nrc5497264mirq...@4ax.com>,
>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> There seems to be three options. One, to use a ruler and measure from
>>> pin to pin. Two to use a chain tool and measure from roller to roller.
>>> Or three, to use some combination of the two.
>>>
>>> Or perhaps there is a fourth - ignore the whole thing as a tempest in
>>> a tea pot :-)
>>
>> Chains are half an inch pitch. Put the chain under tension and
>> measure 24 links. At 12 and one eighth inches you're looking at 1%
>> elongation and you're likely to need to replace both the chain and
>> sprockets at the same time. At 12 and one sixteenth inches you're
>> at 0.5% elongation and you're likely to just need to replace the
>> chain.
>>
>
>That's how I monitor it. Why buy a chain gauge when one already has a
>sufficiently long ruler? After I clean a chain and before lubing it I
>put a little pull on the chain by leaning my hand on a pedal, then hold
>the ruler with the 0" mark to a link edge and read the value 12" down
>the chain. I let my chains to about 0.8% which IME still allows same
>cassette use. One chain accidentally went to 1% on a long hilly and very
>dirty MTB ride (with KMC X10.93 it seems the wear accelerates a lot
>towards the end) and that ruined the cassette.

The reason for the chain gauge is that the length of a chain, between
pins has little to do with the distance from roller to roller as the
rollers are not mounted on the pins.

Although to be honest Brandt in one of his essays argued that most
chain gauges don't measure the wear correctly either.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Yes that was Brandt's objection to chain gauges, and see
http://www.fagan.co.za/Bikes/Csuck/STRETCH-MEASURE.htm

I also repeated my investigation into "stretch" of brand new chains on
the same chains indicated in "Norms when new", using a borrowed Park
Tool. This showed "stretch" of +0.20% to +0.40% (using a method to
interpret the Park reading). So the Park Tool is conservative, but
unneccesarily and wastefully so if the +0.5% criterion is used for
discarding chains. Park's own criterion of +1.0% gets around this to
some degree but leaves a wrong understanding of the issue. There are
fundamental geometric reasons why this device (and other generics
based on the same idea) will over-measure, and the degree of
over-measurement gets worse as the chain wears. I don't know if any
generics have some way of mitigating the problem and providing more
accurate measurements, but it would appear not.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I am inclined toward the tea pot solution but something that got me
more interested in the question was an article, somewhere, that
suggested pulling forward on the chain on the centerline of the chain
ring with the chain on the smallest rear cog.

I tried it on two different bikes both of which had essentially the
same length chains (measured with a ruler) and got different results.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Dennis Davis]

In article <8e587523-0100-4ad7...@googlegroups.com>,
Doug Landau <doug....@gmail.com> wrote:

...

>With chains getting ever more expensive, how do you prevent chain
>theft when out and about?

The chains are the least of my worries. It's the high-end
road cassettes that keep me awake at night. Their price seems
justifiable only if they're hand-crafted out of titanium and mithril
by Tour de France winners. Yes Campagnolo, I mean your Super
Record road cassettes. Although I'm sure there are other exclusive
cassettes I could be using.

On a ride I have my butler follow me in a specially modified
Centurion tank[1]. If I stop for any reason, the priceless bicycle
is loaded into the tank and all battle armament is switched on and
set to "scan and destroy". The "scan and destroy" is a recent
feature installed by my weapons technicians.

It's an arms race out there. Gotta keep up. Times have changed
since the days of my granddad[2]. We Road Warriors need to maintain
a state of high alertness at all times.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centurion_(tank)

[2[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_Thieves
--
Dennis Davis <denni...@fastmail.fm>

[John B.]

On Sat, 16 Sep 2017 06:52:11 +0000 (UTC), Dennis Davis
<denni...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>In article <8e587523-0100-4ad7...@googlegroups.com>,
>Doug Landau <doug....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>...
>
>>With chains getting ever more expensive, how do you prevent chain
>>theft when out and about?
>
>The chains are the least of my worries. It's the high-end
>road cassettes that keep me awake at night. Their price seems
>justifiable only if they're hand-crafted out of titanium and mithril
>by Tour de France winners. Yes Campagnolo, I mean your Super
>Record road cassettes. Although I'm sure there are other exclusive
>cassettes I could be using.
>
>On a ride I have my butler follow me in a specially modified
>Centurion tank[1]. If I stop for any reason, the priceless bicycle
>is loaded into the tank and all battle armament is switched on and
>set to "scan and destroy". The "scan and destroy" is a recent
>feature installed by my weapons technicians.
>

The Butler? How improper. Most gentlemen would have the Coachman in
the tank while the Butler to hold the fort in the "Big House" while
the Master is abroad.

After all, if the Butler were to leave who would there be to defend
the wine cellar? And the Cheval Blanc 1947 is $33,781 a bottle.

>It's an arms race out there. Gotta keep up. Times have changed
>since the days of my granddad[2]. We Road Warriors need to maintain
>a state of high alertness at all times.
>
>[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centurion_(tank)
>
>[2[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_Thieves
--

Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

The ancient rule of thumb for that is replace chain when a
4mm key will slip under the chain. Index shifting will be
poor when a 5mm key fits. You cannot stand on the pedals
when a 6mm key slides under the links. That's a very rough
gradient and not always accurate, but a starting point anyway.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

That test shows more the wear on the sprockets than that on the chain.

[mike.pho...@gmail.com]

Since the switch to cassettes (8+ cogs) from freewheels https://www.sheldonbrown.com/free-k7.html , the axle width has remained the same while the cog teeth and chains have become narrower. Since the load and the length are the same, the pressure per square inch has increased to the point where an 11 speed chain basically needs changed with the tire. Single speed chains will basically last until rusty.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Saturday, September 16, 2017 at 6:30:48 PM UTC-4, mike.pho...@gmail.com wrote:
Snipped

> Since the switch to cassettes (8+ cogs) from freewheels https://www.sheldonbrown.com/free-k7.html , the axle width has remained the same while the cog teeth and chains have become narrower. Since the load and the length are the same, the pressure per square inch has increased to the point where an 11 speed chain basically needs changed with the tire. Single speed chains will basically last until rusty.

I've resurrected single-speed (coaster brake or 3-speed type)that were rusted nearly solid.


Cheers

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

I get 3 tires out of a 11 speed chain and if the same criteria is used for replacement for a single speed chain as for a 11 speed than the difference is that much.

Lou

[John B.]

Interesting. Thanks.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Yes, it may well do that.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 16 Sep 2017 15:30:44 -0700 (PDT), mike.pho...@gmail.com
wrote:

Actually longer. When I was a kid in New Hampshire you put the bike in
the cellar for the winter and sometimes in the spring the chain was so
rusted that you could hardly move it. The usual cure was to sneak your
mother's sewing machine oil, lather the chain with oil, and then ride
it. It was surprisingly how quickly the chain "loosened up".

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Or not.

I happen to have some extreme "bad example" chainrings with
less than 20% tooth height [1] so I measured the root
diameter against a new chainring just now. Jobst is correct.
The wear is against the loaded side of the tooth, almost no
change at root. New 40tt ring root=155mm, utterly worn
out=154.8mm

[1]replaced on customers' bikes, used here for demo
purposes. The one I measured is more worn than this one

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/worn2.jpg

[AMuzi]

Continuing along with "Jobst Appreciation Day" that's
because the lubrication which matters is inside the links.
Once you broke the plate-to-plate surface rust it moved again.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Lou, I understood the first bit well enough but couldn't quite make out the single speed chain wear part.

You must either buy cheap tires or ride a hell of a lot more than I do in order to wear out 3 tires per chain.

I wear out perhaps a Gatorskin and a half per chain. But I mostly replace chains early since they're relatively cheap and better a chain than wearing out a cassette.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Tom I rode a single speed for a long time in the winter and the last years a bike with a gear hub (I'm getting old) and the chains on those bikes wore much faster than the chains on my road bikes. Of coarse the conditions are different but not so much that it would explain the wear rate. You can get away with it as long as you don't replace the cog and the chain ring until the teeth are completely gone and that takes a long time.

>
> You must either buy cheap tires or ride a hell of a lot more than I do in order to wear out 3 tires per chain.
>

I ride 7000 km on my road bikes, that means two new rear tires. I use only Continental GP4000S. Chains are Campagnolo Record 11 speed. Most of the times I get 10000 km out of that chain except this last time when I encountered a remarkable difference between the chains on my two road bikes.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/vZ4zMH61d6mGl84C2

From top to bottom: new chain, chain on one road bike after about 9500 km and the chain on the other road bike after 7500 km. Only difference I see is that I used a different lube for a while. Still puzzles me.

Lou

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I don't know the wear characteristics of the GP4000S but would assume that it is slightly less that the Gatorskin whose entire purpose is to live a long hard life.

I have been trying to make a list of components so that I can keep track of lifespan but I've changed bikes so often until the last year that I have to start fresh.

Rather than those super expensive Campy chains you might try the KMC Gold. These are supposed to be "lubed for life" but I put so much faith in that, that I lube them at regular intervals. One of the things I do more carefully now is to clean the outside of the chain off. This seems to cut down on that thick crud build-up on the cassette.

I just got back from a 30 mile ride (50km). 12 miles of it was on a gravel access road to the San Francisco Bay Shoreline Trail. Since this was on my regular road bike with 23 mm tires, it beat me up pretty good. That probably doesn't help tire wear much and so I don't know if I can compare tire life and chain life.

I'm far more concerned about cassette life though since 10 speed cassettes are so expensive for a reasonably light version.

I don't particularly like Gatorskins because they do not roll very well and they aren't very good in corners. I tried the ThickSlick and it was a little better and cheap but when it got a cut the rubber started peeling away from the casing. Not a lot but some.

I tried Specialized Armadillos and they are very good all around. I seem to remember in the past that they got goat's head flats but the set I bought a year ago didn't get any. Their problem is the staggering cost compared to other tires. Almost twice the cost of the competition. And you can only get them at a Specialized dealer.

I tried the Michelin Pro4 Endurance and really liked them. They roll and corner like a sew-up. It was VERY noticeable. And I didn't get any flats with them. But apparently they had trouble with them peeling off of the carcass like I got with the ThickSlick.

So they released and improved version: The Michelin Power Endurance. I have a set of those on the shelf and will install them on the Pinarello Stelvio I'm rebuilding. I hope they perform like the Pro4 Endurance because I REALLY liked them.

It's not often when you can actually feel the difference in performance. I had an Eddy Merckx Strata OS that I can kick myself for selling but that was in my moving to carbon fiber phase. That was the most perfect riding bike I ever had - better than a Basso Loto. Though with any luck I think that the Pinarello will match it. The Basso flexes just the slightest amount too much. The Stelvio uses the same tubes but the bottom bracket isn't quite as low as the Basso and the wheelbase is 2 cm shorter. That should cure the flex.

For a CX I've had several bikes. The Ridley Longbow actually felt much better than anything else but both of my Redlines were faster though they didn't ride nearly as good. They were perhaps a little lighter but their geometry is such that you can jump off of them at the last second on these 25+% climbs just as the front wheel begins to lift. And they descend these drops pretty well with minimal braking.

So now I'm in a position where I'm pretty satisfied with my bikes and can keep track of component life.

[jbeattie]

On Sunday, September 17, 2017 at 2:43:18 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>

> I don't know the wear characteristics of the GP4000S but would assume that it is slightly less that the Gatorskin whose entire purpose is to live a long hard life.
>
> I have been trying to make a list of components so that I can keep track of lifespan but I've changed bikes so often until the last year that I have to start fresh.
>
> Rather than those super expensive Campy chains you might try the KMC Gold. These are supposed to be "lubed for life" but I put so much faith in that, that I lube them at regular intervals. One of the things I do more carefully now is to clean the outside of the chain off. This seems to cut down on that thick crud build-up on the cassette.
>
> I just got back from a 30 mile ride (50km). 12 miles of it was on a gravel access road to the San Francisco Bay Shoreline Trail. Since this was on my regular road bike with 23 mm tires, it beat me up pretty good. That probably doesn't help tire wear much and so I don't know if I can compare tire life and chain life.
>
> I'm far more concerned about cassette life though since 10 speed cassettes are so expensive for a reasonably light version.
>
> I don't particularly like Gatorskins because they do not roll very well and they aren't very good in corners. I tried the ThickSlick and it was a little better and cheap but when it got a cut the rubber started peeling away from the casing. Not a lot but some.
>
> I tried Specialized Armadillos and they are very good all around. I seem to remember in the past that they got goat's head flats but the set I bought a year ago didn't get any. Their problem is the staggering cost compared to other tires. Almost twice the cost of the competition. And you can only get them at a Specialized dealer.
>
> I tried the Michelin Pro4 Endurance and really liked them. They roll and corner like a sew-up. It was VERY noticeable. And I didn't get any flats with them. But apparently they had trouble with them peeling off of the carcass like I got with the ThickSlick.
>
> So they released and improved version: The Michelin Power Endurance. I have a set of those on the shelf and will install them on the Pinarello Stelvio I'm rebuilding. I hope they perform like the Pro4 Endurance because I REALLY liked them.
>
> It's not often when you can actually feel the difference in performance. I had an Eddy Merckx Strata OS that I can kick myself for selling but that was in my moving to carbon fiber phase. That was the most perfect riding bike I ever had - better than a Basso Loto. Though with any luck I think that the Pinarello will match it. The Basso flexes just the slightest amount too much. The Stelvio uses the same tubes but the bottom bracket isn't quite as low as the Basso and the wheelbase is 2 cm shorter. That should cure the flex.
>
> For a CX I've had several bikes. The Ridley Longbow actually felt much better than anything else but both of my Redlines were faster though they didn't ride nearly as good. They were perhaps a little lighter but their geometry is such that you can jump off of them at the last second on these 25+% climbs just as the front wheel begins to lift. And they descend these drops pretty well with minimal braking.
>
> So now I'm in a position where I'm pretty satisfied with my bikes and can keep track of component life.

Hats off to people who keep track of all of this, but it kind of reminds me when I got one of those early Quicken programs that allowed me to keep track of household expenses. It produced an expense pie chart, and a huge slice of my personal pie was the mortgage. Goddamn! Look how much I'm spending on the mortgage. I better stop paying that.

Same way with chains and cassettes. Wow, look how much I'm replacing those chains. I better stop doing that.

Once you've settled on a chain/cassette/tire brand and model, it's just a fixed cost, and it really doesn't matter how long it lasted. I've settled on my chains -- KMC comes with a quick link, it is reasonably priced and last longer than SRAM. I don't like the pins on Shimano chains and don't want to pay for a separate quick-link. I buy Shimano cassettes -- 105 level or above, and my tires vary somewhat, but fast tires are close-out Pro4 Service Courses. I bought four today for $25 (after discount for picking up in store) a pop at Western Bikeworks. Two will go to my son for Christmas. It's a first-class fast road tire for a song.

Gatorskins are the go-to commuter bike tire, but they're over-priced and rarely go on a good sale, so I try sale table tires. The more durable, the more they ride like wagon wheels. I still have a Bontrager front tire that I got off a sale table more than three years ago. It just won't die -- and I want it to die.

OT, but Portland had the worst air in the US yesterday because of all the forest fires. It was a little better today, and I went on a ride with some friends -- and a few hours ago, rain rolled in. It's been dry for months. This will be great for the forest fires, the air and lawns -- but it signals the beginning of many months of riding on wet pavement and my annual quest for really grippy tires with good rolling resistance. Something in the 32mm range, so if anyone has a suggestion, let me know.

-- Jay Beattie.

[James]

On 18/09/17 07:43, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

> Rather than those super expensive Campy chains you might try the KMC
> Gold. These are supposed to be "lubed for life" but I put so much
> faith in that, that I lube them at regular intervals. One of the
> things I do more carefully now is to clean the outside of the chain
> off. This seems to cut down on that thick crud build-up on the
> cassette.
>

You might be interested in this.

http://www.cantitoeroad.com/assets/images/products/docs/connex_by_wippermann/Chainwear_Test_10_Speed_10-JUN-2010.pdf

I see a super expensive Campag Veloce chain is AU$31.12.

I'll let you work out which is more economical.

--
JS

[Duane]

How many chains do you get out of a cassette?

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

2 sometimes 3. With these numbers cost of cassette and chains become irrelevant.

Lou

[Duane]

For me too, it's usually 2 or 3. But mine get replaced more like every
3000km per chain if I keep them clean. Every 2500 if I don't. So the
cost is not irrelevant. I'm using SRAM chains and cassettes with 11-28t
and a mid compact (52/36) crank. I don't spin well though so I'm sure
hammering uses the chain up more quickly. Plus hills.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Shimano's chains now come with quick links.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/17/2017 5:43 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Rather than those super expensive Campy chains you might try the KMC Gold. These are supposed to be "lubed for life" but I put so much faith in that, that I lube them at regular intervals. One of the things I do more carefully now is to clean the outside of the chain off. This seems to cut down on that thick crud build-up on the cassette.

Speaking of crud buildup: Back when we were talking about waxing
chains, I took a photo or two of my bikes. Here's a link to our tandem
hanging in the basement. The bike has not been cleaned in a year. The
chain hasn't been lubed since spring, maybe 600 miles now. Note the
lack of crud in the cogs.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ACmzRRbMjWCUrHef2

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

I see that Shimano offers one, but I don't think it is being shipped with the chains. https://www.coloradocyclist.com/shimano-ultegra-cn-6800-11-speed-chain It looks like a <$15 add-on (for two). https://www.coloradocyclist.com/shimano-dura-ace-sm-cn900-11-quick-link Does anyone know if the new 11sp Shimano chains are shipping with quick links?


I used a KMC quick link with Shimano chains in the past on bikes that came with Shimano chains OE, so using a quick link has always been an option, but I just didn't like paying the extra charge when you can get a KMC chain (who makes chains for Shimano) with the link included.

-- Jay Beattie.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 3:02:11 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> On Sunday, September 17, 2017 at 2:43:18 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > I don't know the wear characteristics of the GP4000S but would assume that it is slightly less that the Gatorskin whose entire purpose is to live a long hard life.
> >
> > I have been trying to make a list of components so that I can keep track of lifespan but I've changed bikes so often until the last year that I have to start fresh.
> >
> > Rather than those super expensive Campy chains you might try the KMC Gold. These are supposed to be "lubed for life" but I put so much faith in that, that I lube them at regular intervals. One of the things I do more carefully now is to clean the outside of the chain off. This seems to cut down on that thick crud build-up on the cassette.
> >
> > I just got back from a 30 mile ride (50km). 12 miles of it was on a gravel access road to the San Francisco Bay Shoreline Trail. Since this was on my regular road bike with 23 mm tires, it beat me up pretty good. That probably doesn't help tire wear much and so I don't know if I can compare tire life and chain life.
> >
> > I'm far more concerned about cassette life though since 10 speed cassettes are so expensive for a reasonably light version.
> >
> > I don't particularly like Gatorskins because they do not roll very well and they aren't very good in corners. I tried the ThickSlick and it was a little better and cheap but when it got a cut the rubber started peeling away from the casing. Not a lot but some.
> >
> > I tried Specialized Armadillos and they are very good all around. I seem to remember in the past that they got goat's head flats but the set I bought a year ago didn't get any. Their problem is the staggering cost compared to other tires. Almost twice the cost of the competition. And you can only get them at a Specialized dealer.
> >
> > I tried the Michelin Pro4 Endurance and really liked them. They roll and corner like a sew-up. It was VERY noticeable. And I didn't get any flats with them. But apparently they had trouble with them peeling off of the carcass like I got with the ThickSlick.
> >
> > So they released and improved version: The Michelin Power Endurance. I have a set of those on the shelf and will install them on the Pinarello Stelvio I'm rebuilding. I hope they perform like the Pro4 Endurance because I REALLY liked them.
> >
> > It's not often when you can actually feel the difference in performance. I had an Eddy Merckx Strata OS that I can kick myself for selling but that was in my moving to carbon fiber phase. That was the most perfect riding bike I ever had - better than a Basso Loto. Though with any luck I think that the Pinarello will match it. The Basso flexes just the slightest amount too much. The Stelvio uses the same tubes but the bottom bracket isn't quite as low as the Basso and the wheelbase is 2 cm shorter. That should cure the flex.
> >
> > For a CX I've had several bikes. The Ridley Longbow actually felt much better than anything else but both of my Redlines were faster though they didn't ride nearly as good. They were perhaps a little lighter but their geometry is such that you can jump off of them at the last second on these 25+% climbs just as the front wheel begins to lift. And they descend these drops pretty well with minimal braking.
> >
> > So now I'm in a position where I'm pretty satisfied with my bikes and can keep track of component life.
>
> Hats off to people who keep track of all of this, but it kind of reminds me when I got one of those early Quicken programs that allowed me to keep track of household expenses. It produced an expense pie chart, and a huge slice of my personal pie was the mortgage. Goddamn! Look how much I'm spending on the mortgage. I better stop paying that.
>
> Same way with chains and cassettes. Wow, look how much I'm replacing those chains. I better stop doing that.

Jay I agree with you. My garmin records all my rides and these are automatically uploaded to my garmin connect account which bounces them to my strava account. Once a week I input my rides from my garmin to another program (Sporttracks) which is much better for analysing if I want to. Here I enter which bike I used for every ride so the mileage on every bike is known. When I replace a chain I make a note which I can search for.
It is a little effort, but it doesn't affect my choice for tires, chains or cassettes. It is what it is. I refuse to ride shitty tires or use third party chains which shift not as well, just because the are cheaper. In winter I ride Continental Grand Prix 4 seasons because they have a better puncture resistance which is annoying in the dark and cold.

Lou

[jbeattie]

I rode 4Seasons on my winter fast bike and then changed to Pro4 Endurance because of cost. I still like the 4Seasons a lot, and the mild tread pattern is better than a straight slick in a lot of fall conditions (leaves, etc.) I'm watching for sales, which won't happen in the winter regrettably. I commute on Gatorskins which are pretty good. The supposed best tires from Schwalbe and others are horrendously expensive in the US. I'm still searching for a good, affordable winter tire for commuting.

-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I could always accuse you of a phony picture like you have me but I'll take your word for it. But that absolutely is NOT the way that my chain wax has behaved.

The way I've put it on in the past is to put the wax can into a pot of water and heated the water to melt the wax. In the meantime I put the chain in the oven and heated it enough so that when I dip it through the wax the wax runs off without leaving large amounts of residue. But it still leaves some on the inside of the chain plates. And this is deposited on the cassettes. If you use the wax + oil the residue is really black and very difficult to remove.

But the "dry lubes" which are mostly wax do the same thing.

So now I use the "dry lubes" that are silicon in an evaporating carrier. After application I leave the bike overnight before using it. The dry lube is now completely dry and tends not to leave deposits anywhere except on the outside of the chain plates so I have to rub it off with a terry towel that I got a container of at Warehouse Tool for a song. They also have those red towels that we always used to use as grease rags but they are so thin that the grease goes through them and onto your hands.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I didn't buy one but a picture showed the quick link and not the chain pins.

[Duane]

I'm doing exactly what you're doing Lou with the Garmin/Garmin Connect
and Strava. But I also have an app on my phone that tracks my
maintenance. It's called Feedback and it links to my Strava account to
get my mileage. It does alerts when distance or time expires on a task.

It doesn't take much effort on my part except to click a button when the
maintenance is done.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/18/2017 4:14 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 7:57:24 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Speaking of crud buildup: Back when we were talking about waxing
>> chains, I took a photo or two of my bikes. Here's a link to our tandem
>> hanging in the basement. The bike has not been cleaned in a year. The
>> chain hasn't been lubed since spring, maybe 600 miles now. Note the
>> lack of crud in the cogs.
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ACmzRRbMjWCUrHef2
>
> I could always accuse you of a phony picture like you have me but I'll take your word for it. But that absolutely is NOT the way that my chain wax has behaved.

I have more photos, if you're interested. When we were discussing this,
I snapped several with my phone, but I never took the time to link to them.

Here are the rear cogs on my touring bike. (Note, five cogs - wow!)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/zhJArStigQWDR99l2

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Out of curiosity, what do you guys do with all that data? How does it help?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

I sense a negative undertone. Help with what? Does it need to help with anything? Did you never kept a log or travel diary or took pictures? For me to relive my rides in any way.

Lou

[AMuzi]

>>>> expenses. It produced an expense pie chart, and a huge
>>>> slice of my personal pie was the mortgage. Goddamn!Â
>>>> Look how much I'm spending on the mortgage. I better
>>>> stop paying that.
>>>>
>>>> Same way with chains and cassettes. Wow, look how much
>>>> I'm replacing those chains. I better stop doing that.

>>>
>>>
>>> Jay I agree with you. My garmin records all my rides and
>>> these are automatically uploaded to my garmin connect
>>> account which bounces them to my strava account. Once a
>>> week I input my rides from my garmin to another program
>>> (Sporttracks) which is much better for analysing if I
>>> want to. Here I enter which bike I used for every ride so
>>> the mileage on every bike is known. When I replace a
>>> chain I make a note which I can search for.
>>> It is a little effort, but it doesn't affect my choice
>>> for tires, chains or cassettes. It is what it is. I
>>> refuse to ride shitty tires or use third party chains
>>> which shift not as well, just because the are cheaper. In
>>> winter I ride Continental Grand Prix 4 seasons because
>>> they have a better puncture resistance which is annoying
>>> in the dark and cold.
>>>
>>
>> I'm doing exactly what you're doing Lou with the

>> Garmin/Garmin Connect and Strava. But I also have an app
>> on my phone that tracks my maintenance. It's called

>> Feedback and it links to my Strava account to get my
>> mileage. It does alerts when distance or time expires on a
>> task.
>>
>> It doesn't take much effort on my part except to click a
>> button when the maintenance is done.
>
> Out of curiosity, what do you guys do with all that data?
> How does it help?
>

There are guys who keep meticulous maintenance records for
cars, diet, home repairs etc too. Nothing wrong with that.

We have a couple of customers who can tell us how many miles
are on this chain, this tire, when brake pads or a gear wire
were changed or the last Ergo rebuild, all for multiple
bikes. One of our later-famous employees wrote the date on
the base tape of a new tubular (ancient analog system).
If you care, it's easy to track. If you don't no one will
think less of you.

[James]

I use a wax/oil mix, and I don't find the residue difficult to remove at
all.

I take the chain off, put it in the pot with the solid wax and heat the
whole lot on a gas BBQ burner until the wax is completely liquified at
least. I then remove the chain carefully, and let the excess wax
mixture drip off before wiping any more excess off with a rag and
letting it cool enough I can handle it before putting it in storage.

While it is "cooking" and cooling I might rub off any build up of crud
from the jockey wheels and such and fit the other chain. I alternate 2
chains on one cassette.

--
JS

[Duane]

I like to keep track of my performance. Also sharing the rides, pictures
etc. The maintenance is just something that's there and easy.

--
duane

[James]

On 19/09/17 06:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>
> Out of curiosity, what do you guys do with all that data? How does it
> help?
>

Curiosity? Bragging rights?

It can be useful to keep a track of component longevity and compare wear
rates with other brands or models or maintenance routines.

--
JS

[jbeattie]

I beat Mark yesterday! In your face Mark! He beat me two weeks ago on a long gravel climb. Chris always beats me. Mike sometimes (down the list of riding companions). That's my training log. Oh, I forgot -- I had a flat yesterday. I logged that by hanging the tube on the "to-patch" hook in my garage.

Captain's log, September 18, 2017 -- it's dark and raining. I have to ride home from work. (download that for six months).

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

I didn't mean anything particularly negative. I've always kept a
maintenance notebook on every car and motorcycle. Particularly with the
old motorcycle, which seems to have some quirky problems from time to
time, it's sometimes handy to remember what worked and what didn't, or
odd tricks that I used to solve problems.

I started keeping notes about bicycle maintenance a few years ago,
mostly as a curiosity. But I don't think I've gotten much actual benefit.

Oddly, if I'd kept maintenance records on our house, that probably would
have given me the most benefit over the years. Examples: writing down
paint color codes; notes on wiring (or a wiring diagram); notes on
landscaping plant types, fertilizers, whatever. But it didn't occur to
me to do a house maintenance notebook until just a few years ago.

About bicycling: I don't think performance or training records are going
to do me any good at this stage of my life. I know I'll get slower every
year. I prefer to ignore that, not see evidence of it!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

It is just for fun Frank. This is all generated automatically if you record your ride data with a Garmin and upload it to your Garmin connect account, also automatically;

https://www.relive.cc/view/g12557672122

I think it is nice.

Lou

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=How+to+control+aging

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Lou, I keep track in a written log because I don't want information of every single thing that I do to be available on the Internet.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 3:54:30 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
>
> I use a wax/oil mix, and I don't find the residue difficult to remove at
> all.
>
> I take the chain off, put it in the pot with the solid wax and heat the
> whole lot on a gas BBQ burner until the wax is completely liquified at
> least. I then remove the chain carefully, and let the excess wax
> mixture drip off before wiping any more excess off with a rag and
> letting it cool enough I can handle it before putting it in storage.
>
> While it is "cooking" and cooling I might rub off any build up of crud
> from the jockey wheels and such and fit the other chain. I alternate 2
> chains on one cassette.

On my cassettes it is hard enough that it has to be scraped off with a putty knife or even a chisel in some cases. The jockey wheels HAVE to be removed and scraped in the same fashion.

If I clean it every week I suppose it would be easier to clean but I ride and don't do maintenance until it's necessary.

[Doug Landau]

> About bicycling: I don't think performance or training records are going
> to do me any good at this stage of my life. I know I'll get slower every
> year. I prefer to ignore that, not see evidence of it!

Touring diaries are fun to reread

[Doug Landau]

On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 8:21:14 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 07:44:29 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>
> >On 9/15/2017 4:48 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>
> >> I've been thinking about chain wear, sometimes called ch

> >See section #8d.2 here:
> >http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>
> Yup, Brandt (in all his glory :-)

Disagree. Completely. Brandt shines much, much more brightly, where the subject has more depth. These few words, although correct and useful, are most assuredly NOT Brandt at his finest.

[Doug Landau]

On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 4:33:12 AM UTC-7, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=How+to+control+aging

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Help+yourself+to+better+eyesight

[Frank Krygowski]

> Touring diaries are fun to reread.

I agree with that. I recently reread my diary from our coast to coast trip.
I was sort of shocked about how difficult parts of it were. I'd been remembering
mostly the easy, smooth scenic parts.

- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The part my wife remembers most vividly is that she didn't see a black person most of the way across. Since we both lived in Oakland neither of us could understand anything like that.

[jbeattie]

On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 11:45:20 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Some memories are precious. http://www.majka.us/cookielady/ I'm in there, but I'm not telling you where: https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?doc_id=1431

Go back to the 70s and early 80s. The pictures are great -- happy people in t-shirts and cut-offs or touring shorts. I'm in Bata Bikers and some pre-Nashbar Bike Warehouse touring shorts. No lycra in sight, for better or worse. Few high-end bikes. People were just having fun -- and discussions were not of epic pain and suffering and killer cars. I don't think they had bike lanes back then. Joerg would have to stay home and wait for the country to get connected-up.

-- Jay Beattie.

[mike.pho...@gmail.com]

For those wishing to log mileage on bicycle parts, bike journal.com let's you specify all kinds of different parts and accumulates miles for each part until you enter another one.

One thing Sheldon Brown always said was the manufacturers grease was the best lube, and trying to replace it after manufacture was just getting dirt to the inside.

So some friends of mine, when they got a new chain, applied WD40 to the outside to clean and leave a rust proof and dirt proof coating on the outside. These chains then usually got 2-3 time the miles they had been getting with previous lubes.

[John B.]

The term was meant to be sardonic.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Doug Landau]

On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 5:37:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 11:11:00 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
>

> >On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 8:21:14 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> >> On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 07:44:29 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 9/15/2017 4:48 AM, John B. wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I've been thinking about chain wear, sometimes called ch
> >> >See section #8d.2 here:
> >> >http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
> >>
> >> Yup, Brandt (in all his glory :-)
> >
> >Disagree. Completely. Brandt shines much, much more brightly, where the subject has more depth. These few words, although correct and useful, are most assuredly NOT Brandt at his finest.
>
> The term was meant to be sardonic.

Ok, sardonic, fine but where is the meaning? Sardonic or not, what are you communicating with this sneer - to what are you referring to by glory, symbolic/metaphoric or not? Is there even a grain of truth or reality in this comment - do you think he was being flowery in his words, or presenting this material in overly grandiose terms, on this particular occasion? Or do you mean because this particular bit made it into the bicycles FAQ? Is there any basis for your sneer at all- anything that made you choose that sneer at that time, or did you just pull it out of a collection of universal sneers, or what???

[John B.]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 19:23:20 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
<doug....@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 5:37:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Sep 2017 11:11:00 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
>>
>> >On Friday, September 15, 2017 at 8:21:14 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 07:44:29 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 9/15/2017 4:48 AM, John B. wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I've been thinking about chain wear, sometimes called ch
>> >> >See section #8d.2 here:
>> >> >http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
>> >>
>> >> Yup, Brandt (in all his glory :-)
>> >
>> >Disagree. Completely. Brandt shines much, much more brightly, where the subject has more depth. These few words, although correct and useful, are most assuredly NOT Brandt at his finest.
>>
>> The term was meant to be sardonic.
>
>Ok, sardonic, fine but where is the meaning?

Goodness. English language courses yet:

sardonic ~ adj
1. disdainfully or ironically humorous; scornful and mocking
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Duane]

I think he understands the meaning of sardonic. I think he's asking you
what was the meaning of your sardonic comment. What point were you
trying to make?

[cycl...@gmail.com]

With my concussion I simply can't remember far enough back to know what I've done or not. I have to have people remind me.

[Doug Landau]

> >>>>>> On 9/15/2017 4:48 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I've been thinking about chain wear, sometimes called ch
> >>>>>> See section #8d.2 here:
> >>>>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part3/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yup, Brandt (in all his glory :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Disagree. Completely. Brandt shines much, much more brightly, where the subject has more depth. These few words, although correct and useful, are most assuredly NOT Brandt at his finest.
> >>>
> >>> The term was meant to be sardonic.
> >>
> >> Ok, sardonic, fine but where is the meaning?
> >
> > Goodness. English language courses yet:
> >
> > sardonic ~ adj
> > 1. disdainfully or ironically humorous; scornful and mocking
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John B.
> >
>
> I think he understands the meaning of sardonic. I think he's asking you
> what was the meaning of your sardonic comment. What point were you
> trying to make?

I've tried again and again and cannot make any sense of it, sardonically, sarcastically, backwards, inversely, or otherwise. I conclude that it was just an all-purpose, or all-occasion sneer, pulled out of a hat at random, as a decoration to his flowery speech, and in fact had no connection whatsoever to its object. The guy just gets off on being snide.

That said I apologize to all for the rant and will shut up now.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Well, Jobst was a jerk. But a very knowledgeable one. So while he could make your blood boil he could also solve a lot of problems for you.

[John B.]

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:37:04 -0400, Duane <duane...@videotron.ca>
wrote:

I was commenting on Brandt's usual method of discussion, i.e., state a
"fact" and then labeling anyone that didn't agree with him as wrong.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 5:04:06 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
>
> Some memories are precious. http://www.majka.us/cookielady/ I'm in there, but I'm not telling you where: https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?doc_id=1431
>
> Go back to the 70s and early 80s. The pictures are great -- happy people in t-shirts and cut-offs or touring shorts. I'm in Bata Bikers and some pre-Nashbar Bike Warehouse touring shorts. No lycra in sight, for better or worse. Few high-end bikes. People were just having fun -- and discussions were not of epic pain and suffering and killer cars. I don't think they had bike lanes back then. Joerg would have to stay home and wait for the country to get connected-up.
>

The sad part is, almost all the folks in those photographs must have never
completed their rides. How could they? No plastic hats for protection, no
bike lanes to keep motorists from running them over, no lycra to prevent
deadly saddle sores, no index shifting to allow accurate downshifts for the
hills, and pounds and pounds of excess weight in the frames and wheels...

It's sad, sad, sad!

- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

Gee whiz Frank,LOL.You make it sound as is EVERY bicycling advance inthe last 100+ years was Totally uneeded and thus wasteful.LOL

Are you going to add pneumatic tubes and realtively easy to remove clincher tires to that list too?

Actually, I believe that reliasble inexpensive index shifting is a MAJOR reason forany bicycling increase over the years = no more having tospend a long time learning how to shift properly.

Something I find most people get discouraged from trying bicycling is simply the distances they'd have to ride to get to anywhere.

Also, it's a lot harder to load a lot of groceries onto a bicycle than it is to put those groceries into a car.

Cheers

[John B.]

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 23:12:17 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 12:34:12 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 5:04:06 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
>> >
>> > Some memories are precious. http://www.majka.us/cookielady/ I'm in there, but I'm not telling you where: https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?doc_id=1431
>> >
>> > Go back to the 70s and early 80s. The pictures are great -- happy people in t-shirts and cut-offs or touring shorts. I'm in Bata Bikers and some pre-Nashbar Bike Warehouse touring shorts. No lycra in sight, for better or worse. Few high-end bikes. People were just having fun -- and discussions were not of epic pain and suffering and killer cars. I don't think they had bike lanes back then. Joerg would have to stay home and wait for the country to get connected-up.
>> >
>>
>> The sad part is, almost all the folks in those photographs must have never
>> completed their rides. How could they? No plastic hats for protection, no
>> bike lanes to keep motorists from running them over, no lycra to prevent
>> deadly saddle sores, no index shifting to allow accurate downshifts for the
>> hills, and pounds and pounds of excess weight in the frames and wheels...
>>
>> It's sad, sad, sad!
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>Gee whiz Frank,LOL.You make it sound as is EVERY bicycling advance inthe last 100+ years was Totally uneeded and thus wasteful.LOL
>
>Are you going to add pneumatic tubes and realtively easy to remove clincher tires to that list too?
>
>Actually, I believe that reliasble inexpensive index shifting is a MAJOR reason forany bicycling increase over the years = no more having tospend a long time learning how to shift properly.
>

I'm not so sure about that. I don't remember having a lot of troubles
when I first use friction shifters. Certainly I must have missed
shifts at first but that didn't last a long time. But that was just
"how a bicycle worked". Like bottle generators and incandescent
lights, and "who could ever need more then ten speeds".

>Something I find most people get discouraged from trying bicycling is simply the distances they'd have to ride to get to anywhere.
>
>Also, it's a lot harder to load a lot of groceries onto a bicycle than it is to put those groceries into a car.
>
>Cheers

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Duane]

I wasn't asking, only translating.

--
duane

[cycl...@gmail.com]

You sure hit that one. Using glue-on's was one of the things that kept bicycling on high performance bicycles so rare in those days.

[jbeattie]

Saddle sores were deadly! I recall being in a crowded campground shower room with a bunch of TransAm cyclists listening to them comparing notes on the treatment of saddle sores. My Bike Warehouse touring shorts were pretty comfortable (slightly padded terry cloth crotch), but what put me ahead of the curve was the fact that I started the tour in the middle of a racing season. A lot of riders went out and bought bikes, jumped on and started riding -- or had little experience riding and certainly didn't have tough butts.

I rode the West Coast up into Canada in 1976, the first year of the Bikecentennial trail, and practically nobody was wearing helmets. By 1981, when I rode across the US, maybe 30/40% were wearing helmets. People typically didn't wear their helmets when posing for the Cookie Lady. Nobody really talked about helmets -- pro or con. People either wore them or didn't.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/21/2017 2:12 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> Something I find most people get discouraged from trying bicycling is simply the distances they'd have to ride to get to anywhere.

That, plus the fact that most people simply aren't interested. If you
gave them a perfect bike path directly from their front door to their
place of work or favorite store, and made it downhill both ways, they
still wouldn't do it.

>
> Also, it's a lot harder to load a lot of groceries onto a bicycle than it is to put those groceries into a car.

We learned a neat trick at our grocery store. A couple years ago, our
store added some smaller grocery carts, much shorter than the full sized
ones. I took to calling them "sports carts."

Anyway, I've found that when the sports cart is filled completely full,
it's precisely the amount of goods we can carry home on our two bikes.

But yes, it is harder to load the stuff into the bike bags. Throwing the
grocery bags into the back of our car takes just 15 seconds or so.
Fitting them into bike bags takes up to 90 seconds.

BTW, I enjoy it when we get the occasional compliment about shopping by
bike. For example, last week someone said to my wife and me "You rode
your bikes to Target!! I love it! That is SO COOL!"

(I said "You can do this too!" but I doubt she will.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/21/2017 10:31 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> I rode the West Coast up into Canada in 1976, the first year of the Bikecentennial trail, and practically nobody was wearing helmets. By 1981, when I rode across the US, maybe 30/40% were wearing helmets. People typically didn't wear their helmets when posing for the Cookie Lady. Nobody really talked about helmets -- pro or con. People either wore them or didn't.

Our bicycle club produced a slide show promoting the club back in the
1970s, before we were here. It was recently digitized and we watched it
with friends who were members back then. Plenty of photos of then-young
members enjoying local rides. Perhaps 2% of the riders were in helmets.

Talking with a good friend who was shown in the slides, she said "I
remember the switch to helmets. Nobody wore them at first and nobody had
problems. Then just a few people started wearing them. Pretty soon if
you showed up without a helmet they were saying 'Where's your helmet?'
and making fun of you. I hated it."

So, as with most things: Certainly no rational analysis, and not even
official policy. Just caving into misleading propaganda, plus peer pressure.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

What the hell does that mean? I rode to the Post Office for
15 years, six days a week, with a load of crap on my bike.
With tubulars.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Doug Landau]

Set a better example.

Cheers!

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Says the bike mechanic. :-)

[John B.]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 09:09:50 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau

Why?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joy Beeson]

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 23:12:17 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Also, it's a lot harder to load a lot of groceries onto a bicycle than it i=

> s to put those groceries into a car.

I once got my picture in the paper for having two bags of groceries on
my bike.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 11:45:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> BTW, I enjoy it when we get the occasional compliment about shopping by
> bike. For example, last week someone said to my wife and me "You rode
> your bikes to Target!! I love it! That is SO COOL!"

I get depressed when people gush in awe because I'd come ALL THE WAY
FROM WINONA LAKE -- almost two miles.

Of late they've started saying "bless you, keep it up." That's
depressing too.

[dave]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 23:50:04 -0300, Joy Beeson wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 23:12:17 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
> <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> Also, it's a lot harder to load a lot of groceries onto a bicycle than
>> it i=
>> s to put those groceries into a car.
>
> I once got my picture in the paper for having two bags of groceries on
> my bike.

Well obviously! One would ruin the balance.
--
davethedave

[John B.]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 07:22:09 -0000 (UTC), dave <daved...@gmail.com>
wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/ycpznae9
--
Cheers,

John B.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 8:58:25 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 11:45:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > BTW, I enjoy it when we get the occasional compliment about shopping by
> > bike. For example, last week someone said to my wife and me "You rode
> > your bikes to Target!! I love it! That is SO COOL!"
>
> I get depressed when people gush in awe because I'd come ALL THE WAY
> FROM WINONA LAKE -- almost two miles.
>
> Of late they've started saying "bless you, keep it up." That's
> depressing too.

Not nearly as depressing as someone looking at me and asking, "How can someone your age ride a bike?"

[John B.]

I don't know whether Thais are just more polite but when the ask me my
age they exclaim "whooo, so strong". Which true or not is a boost to
the ego :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[dave]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 15:40:37 +0700, John B. wrote:

<snip>

>>> I once got my picture in the paper for having two bags of groceries on
>>> my bike.
>>
>>Well obviously! One would ruin the balance.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ycpznae9

See! An even number. :)
--
davethedave