FLU

[avag...@gmail.com]

Door handles….shopping carts …..everything on the shelves wash before stocking at home …gas pumps….steering wheels…people coughing….entering a closed space eg elevator …the dentists office…

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/smarter-living/cold-flu-symptoms

html?emc=edit_nn_20171120&nl=morning-briefing&nlid=71480105&te=1

goo.gl/Pt1Z44

goo.gl/XsyxLb

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+wash+your+hands

if there’s concentrated flu in your area wera a 3M flap mask
ahole coughs. Hold breathe walk away. Doahn ride in elevators. Doahn use door handles with bare hands ..nor push buttons…wash hands after using gas pump….

[Joerg]

On 2017-11-20 15:11, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> Door handles….shopping carts …..everything on the shelves wash before
> stocking at home …gas pumps….steering wheels…people
> coughing….entering a closed space eg elevator …the dentists office…
>

> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/smarter-living/cold-flu-symptoms.html?emc=edit_nn_20171120&nl=morning-briefing&nlid=71480105&te=1

>
> goo.gl/Pt1Z44
>
> goo.gl/XsyxLb
>
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+wash+your+hands
>
> if there’s concentrated flu in your area wera a 3M flap mask ahole
> coughs. Hold breathe walk away. Doahn ride in elevators. Doahn use
> door handles with bare hands ..nor push buttons…wash hands after
> using gas pump….
>

Wear a full space suit. All all times! Danger, danger! :-)

--
Happy Thanksgiving, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[John B.]

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 13:38:30 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

The news here recently included an article describing a study made by
some U.S. group regarding the number/amount of bacteria found on the
surface of the typical one dollar note. An average of more then a
hundred species of bacteria were noted. Obviously simply handling the
green back dollar is dangerious.

But it would appear that using a credit card might be dangerious also.
Imagine handing your credit card to someone who had been handling
those filthy dollars all day ,and who's hands must be covered with the
filthy little creatures, and then accepting the card back... and
putting it in your pocket?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Dennis Davis]

In article <f7oteb...@mid.individual.net>,

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>On 2017-11-20 15:11, avag...@gmail.com wrote:

>> ... the usual mindless rubbish ...

> Wear a full space suit. All all times! Danger, danger! :-)

And *always* line your cycle helmet with tinfoil. Wear it at
all times. There are undetectable alien satellites circling the
Earth. They're constantly broadcast mind-altering rays at all
humanoid life-forms. The tinfoil lined helmet stops these rays
affecting you. Even in the secure institution in which you'll be
incarcerated.
--
Dennis Davis <denni...@fastmail.fm>

[Joerg]

Plus there is a highly scientific study about the effectiveness of foil
hats :-)

http://web.archive.org/web/20100708230258/http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[avag...@gmail.com]

THE 3 GROUPS here on your doorstep

[Tosspot]

Let me get this straight. The tinfoil hat is actually a government run
programme to *increase* the effectiveness of mind control rays from
government satellites!? I don't believe it. Since I've been wearing
mine I sleep better, perform better at work, have less days off sick and
think with a new unsurpassed clarity.

Btw, I prefer the beanie style as it fits under cycle helmets.

[Joerg]

I should have worn that on my ride yesterday. It would have prevents
alien transmissions from getting through and twigs that fell through the
helmet vent hole from causing an itch.

[avag...@gmail.com]

the foil joke may prevent you from arranging with/into your environment

try this ... if foil was a component then why not .... ?

[avag...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, November 25, 2017 at 1:48:06 PM UTC-7, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> the foil joke may prevent you from arranging with/into your environment
>
> try this ... if foil was a component then why not .... ?

J this is an older German architectural/psych concept: terracotta buildings are healthier than steel reinforced concrete ...a much larger off the ground scale

I cannot locate current info on the net

[Joerg]

Steel re-enforced in most cases means some big residential highrise in a
congested area. No wonder that those people are or feel less healthy. I
have never understood the desire of city folk to cram together like
sardines in a can.

[avag...@gmail.com]

goo.gl/CshRPR

assuming your superior healthy is an error ... around you people are not...

the 'satellite city' boom grew more high towers

I assume one n 2 stories are cheaper

nice photo couldn't find a view north of NYC

http://mossien.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Architecture_Rochester_NY.jpg

[AMuzi]

Healthier for whom?

http://ascelibrary.org/doi/abs/10.1061/40482%28280%2958

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

Try an intro Anthropology book some time.
Before The Inter Webs, close proximity promoted exchange of
ideas and specialization of effort. Still does to some extent.

[Joerg]

On 2017-11-25 16:30, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> goo.gl/CshRPR
>
> assuming your superior healthy is an error ...

It isn't an error.

> ... around you people are not...
>
> the 'satellite city' boom grew more high towers
>
> I assume one n 2 stories are cheaper
>
> nice photo couldn't find a view north of NYC
>
> http://mossien.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Architecture_Rochester_NY.jpg
>

No ten horses would get me to live there.

[Joerg]

It does, though specialization is not always a good thing. It results,
for example, in people who can't even fix a flat. Their tool of fixing
just about anything is the yellow pages.

As for health, dense living results in lot of civilization diseases,
higher stress levels and nowadays lung diseases because of pollution.
Probably also more cancer. Just about every time I reach the top of the
last hill to ride into the Sacramento Valley I see that brownish smog
line and I am thankful not to have to live down there. Other times I can
literally smell it.

[AMuzi]

This is a false dichotomy in that all of it can be true and
likely is. Choice is good, neither city nor rural life being
perfect and humans being by their nature a diverse lot.

As regards specialization, one would prefer a world in which
some high school dropout like me kept Enrico Fermi's bike in
good shape leaving him more time for other thoughts and
activities.

[Joerg]

Though as humans we need to recognize when we are damaging our bodies
and the denser the area the more that will happen. This is also why I'll
never understand people who say "Away with cycle paths, bicycles belong
on the road". I find that, sorry to say, stupid. Why would anyone in
their right mind want to travel alongside noisy and polluting combustion
engines buzzing by? All one has to do is look at the rear bumper area of
passing cars and we'll notice that nearly all have a common design flaw.
The exhaust is on the curb side, right into our faces. No thanks, I
won't live in an area like that and prefer where I rode a couple of days
ago, a nice long pristine singletrack, all afternoon.

> As regards specialization, one would prefer a world in which some high
> school dropout like me kept Enrico Fermi's bike in good shape leaving
> him more time for other thoughts and activities.
>

Unless you start an airline and a spacecraft company like the other
drop-out, Richard Branson :-)

Nothing against specialization, I did that myself by concentrating on a
section of electronic circuit design. However, we all should maintain a
modicum of broader skills to help ourselves when something goes wrong
instead of standing there next to our pretzeled front wheel with a blank
"Oh s..t!" expression on our faces. It also helps us from being snowed
in terms of "Oh, you'll need a complete new furnace, this one's
thoroughly shot and we can't get parts for it anymore anyhow".

[jbeattie]

Fixing a flat IS specialization, particularly a tubular. Are you saying the rugged individualists in Cameron Park -- a golf community with an airstrip -- are more likely to fix their own flats than the downtrodden city dwellers in, say, Portland or Minneapolis?

>
> As for health, dense living results in lot of civilization diseases,
> higher stress levels and nowadays lung diseases because of pollution.
> Probably also more cancer. Just about every time I reach the top of the
> last hill to ride into the Sacramento Valley I see that brownish smog
> line and I am thankful not to have to live down there. Other times I can
> literally smell it.

And yet, you're headed to Sacramento to get goods and services lacking in Cameron Park -- which is not surprising, since it was designed as a parasitic bedroom community carved out of a cow-pasture/vinyard. Rugged individualists with cars and strip malls.

BTW, rural populations typically fare worse in terms of physical and mental health. https://hpi.georgetown.edu/agingsociety/pubhtml/rural/rural.html Also, with all the wood stove burning and automobiles in Cameron Park, you'd have smog too if the town were in a valley, like Sacramento.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

Probably yes. For example, the folks in the airpark almost always have a
very well equipped hangar-size garage with huge tool chests. Many also
have certificates entitling them to officially repair aircraft. If you
can fix a leaking tire on an aircraft you can fix it on a bicycle.

>>
>> As for health, dense living results in lot of civilization
>> diseases, higher stress levels and nowadays lung diseases because
>> of pollution. Probably also more cancer. Just about every time I
>> reach the top of the last hill to ride into the Sacramento Valley I
>> see that brownish smog line and I am thankful not to have to live
>> down there. Other times I can literally smell it.
>
> And yet, you're headed to Sacramento to get goods and services
> lacking in Cameron Park -- which is not surprising, since it was
> designed as a parasitic bedroom community carved out of a
> cow-pasture/vinyard. Rugged individualists with cars and strip
> malls.
>

No, I take my pick. Often, like two days ago, I point the MTB east and
go to the Placerville area. They've got hardware stores and just about
everything needed. I never ride into Sacramento for errands, if west I
go to Folsom. I like to patronize their businesses because that
community did and does a stellar job for cycling infrastructure. That
needs to be rewarded. As long as you don't ride much past Rancho Cordova
the smell of smog won't intensify too badly. Plus you are far off car
traffic because it is a bikle path separated so far that all you usually
see is river and nature.

> BTW, rural populations typically fare worse in terms of physical and
> mental health.
> https://hpi.georgetown.edu/agingsociety/pubhtml/rural/rural.html

That is largely because of the much higher percentage of people with
longterm substance abuse problems, and most of all smoking. If you live
a healthy lifestyle country living is way better for you.

> Also, with all the wood stove burning and automobiles in Cameron
> Park, you'd have smog too if the town were in a valley, like
> Sacramento.
>

We don't. Except on very cold days for the occasional <expression
censored> who are too incompetent to operate a wood stove.

When I worked in Rancho Cordova (Sacramento Valley) I could sometimes
feel the pollution in my lungs. Coming up the Bass Lake Grade I rolled
down the windows "Aaaah, finally fresh air". No that I don't have to
commute anymore I get fresh air all the time.

Even more of a contrast is a flight from Ireland or Scotland to
Duesseldorf in Germany. I grew up there but after stepping out of the
plane I still thought "Why would anyone want to live here?".

[avag...@gmail.com]

no longer. you are an example. Asimov ? actually Asimov is the only name to mind. many moons. Morse had a recent anniversary.

real estate plus ad prestige for the tower. a walk outside is best with 1-2

I find the entire tower complex baffling as will the top 100 when the ice melts n ticks close in.

ATL, distribution and redistribution nub has warehousing fling across the perimeter, cheaper real estate, surly easier access.

towers may be more bike accessible.

[avag...@gmail.com]

no no no the local pop's health. who gives a damn abt your health.

[Joerg]

I do. If someone choses to smoke which rural folks often do that isn't
my problem, it's theirs.

[jbeattie]

Do the airplane guys even own bikes? http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/One-plane-garage-with-a-view-Residential-2522165.php It seems like the idea is to burn fuel.

I probably see one-hundred times the cyclists you see on a daily basis. I can guaranty you that all of them know how to fix a flat. https://bikeportland.org/2016/05/04/observing-portlands-bike-traffic-photo-essay-182506 These are ordinary city dwellers who actually ride and who account for an appreciable share of traffic. They also do super-gnarly weekend rides where they get to jump in puddles and drink beer!

BTW, I was flying with my brother yesterday in one of his planes. He doesn't work on that plane because it has a RR jet turbine engine -- not something for the home mechanic. He does have a Trek city bike with flat tires in his garage, but I'm confident that the can pump those up -- even though he is a city dweller who lives in a condo tower.

Since when is Cameron Park "country living." It's a f***** synthetic community built around a golf course within commuting distance of SAC. It's a commuter suburb. It's everything bad about land use and planning in California. It's a virus. I'd be ashamed to live there. You should move to a real town -- maybe Hurricane, UT or some other moonscape where the rugged individuals know how to fix a flat!

>
>
> > Also, with all the wood stove burning and automobiles in Cameron
> > Park, you'd have smog too if the town were in a valley, like
> > Sacramento.
> >
>
> We don't. Except on very cold days for the occasional <expression
> censored> who are too incompetent to operate a wood stove.
>
> When I worked in Rancho Cordova (Sacramento Valley) I could sometimes
> feel the pollution in my lungs. Coming up the Bass Lake Grade I rolled
> down the windows "Aaaah, finally fresh air". No that I don't have to
> commute anymore I get fresh air all the time.

I get fresh air all the time, too, except where there are forest fires. In fact, my air quality is better than yours:

My zip: https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&zipcode=97219&submit=Go ("Good")

Your zip: https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&zipcode=95762&submit=Go ("Moderate")

Gads! I'd stay indoors if I were you!

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

Many have bikes in their large garages. Not that they ride any more than
many of the other garage queen owners but for sure they'd know how to
fix it.

> I probably see one-hundred times the cyclists you see on a daily
> basis. I can guaranty you that all of them know how to fix a flat.

I have personally met several who didn't (and I fixed it for them).


> https://bikeportland.org/2016/05/04/observing-portlands-bike-traffic-photo-essay-182506


Wow, the helmet quota is even higher than here where it's already well
over 95%.

> These are ordinary city dwellers who actually ride and who account
> for an appreciable share of traffic. They also do super-gnarly
> weekend rides where they get to jump in puddles and drink beer!
>
> BTW, I was flying with my brother yesterday in one of his planes. He
> doesn't work on that plane because it has a RR jet turbine engine --
> not something for the home mechanic.

No, and he must be super rich if that's just one of his planes. Attorney?


> ... He does have a Trek city bike

> with flat tires in his garage, but I'm confident that the can pump
> those up -- even though he is a city dweller who lives in a condo
> tower.
>

Different story. This is about the ability to fix a defect that isn't
just lack of air.

Since pretty much forever:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfqa_fXf-DE


> ... It's a f***** synthetic

> community built around a golf course within commuting distance of
> SAC. It's a commuter suburb. It's everything bad about land use and
> planning in California. It's a virus. I'd be ashamed to live there.
> You should move to a real town -- maybe Hurricane, UT or some other
> moonscape where the rugged individuals know how to fix a flat!

Hurricane is precisely one of the areas on our radar for a potential
retirement move. St.George is too large for me but the surrounding
places are nice.

>>
>>> Also, with all the wood stove burning and automobiles in Cameron
>>> Park, you'd have smog too if the town were in a valley, like
>>> Sacramento.
>>>
>>
>> We don't. Except on very cold days for the occasional <expression
>> censored> who are too incompetent to operate a wood stove.
>>
>> When I worked in Rancho Cordova (Sacramento Valley) I could
>> sometimes feel the pollution in my lungs. Coming up the Bass Lake
>> Grade I rolled down the windows "Aaaah, finally fresh air". No that
>> I don't have to commute anymore I get fresh air all the time.
>
> I get fresh air all the time, too, except where there are forest
> fires. In fact, my air quality is better than yours:
>
> My zip:
> https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&zipcode=97219&submit=Go
> ("Good")
>
> Your zip:
> https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&zipcode=95762&submit=Go
> ("Moderate")
>
> Gads! I'd stay indoors if I were you!
>

There is still some fire smell in the air. Remember that we had some big
ones? It was on the news.

Portland is too rainy and cold for us. Also, when moving for retirement
I'll make 110% sure we won't get into another liberal state. Which is
why California would be out for that purpose and so is Oregon. Now Idaho
would be nice but too cold for my wife.

[John B.]

On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 08:07:27 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

I'm not so sure about the higher stress levels. I grew in a rural
village in New England and have lived in cities like Miami Fl, Tokyo,
Japan, Jakarta Indonesia and Bangkok Thailand and to be frank I have
never felt any stress from living in cities.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

Airline captain. His day job is flying Dreamliners. The second plane is a Cessna 421. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_421 The turbo prop is a modified Cessna 210. https://tinyurl.com/y9v5ctsl Both are pressurized because he lives in Denver and frequently flies over the Rockies with dogs -- rescuing them from various places. He buys used planes, as do most plane owners.

Yes, and I can link to trails in Portland fifteen minutes by bike from my high-rise, cement, steel and glass tower of urban decay and sickness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu7494oIWcc&t=13s Speaking of Denver, it has an incredible system of paved and unpaved bike lanes, although it is too far away from the Rockies for me. I'd rather be in Golden or Boulder.

>
>
> > ... It's a f***** synthetic
> > community built around a golf course within commuting distance of
> > SAC. It's a commuter suburb. It's everything bad about land use and
> > planning in California. It's a virus. I'd be ashamed to live there.
> > You should move to a real town -- maybe Hurricane, UT or some other
> > moonscape where the rugged individuals know how to fix a flat!
>
>
> Hurricane is precisely one of the areas on our radar for a potential
> retirement move. St.George is too large for me but the surrounding
> places are nice.

Hurricane is nice compared to the lunar surface. Zion is not close enough. I'd live in SLC but for the winter smog -- from wood burning stoves, among other things. The canyons are awesome for riding and skiing.

There may be some place in the Southwest I'd consider -- but there is no way I could acclimate to the Mesquite/Hurricane area. I could live in a Sonoran desert but not a Nevada nuke site. I'm also not going to live a zillion miles from an international airport. You're a convenient drive to SAC. Wait until its four or five hours to a real airport.

> >>
> >>> Also, with all the wood stove burning and automobiles in Cameron
> >>> Park, you'd have smog too if the town were in a valley, like
> >>> Sacramento.
> >>>
> >>
> >> We don't. Except on very cold days for the occasional <expression
> >> censored> who are too incompetent to operate a wood stove.
> >>
> >> When I worked in Rancho Cordova (Sacramento Valley) I could
> >> sometimes feel the pollution in my lungs. Coming up the Bass Lake
> >> Grade I rolled down the windows "Aaaah, finally fresh air". No that
> >> I don't have to commute anymore I get fresh air all the time.
> >
> > I get fresh air all the time, too, except where there are forest
> > fires. In fact, my air quality is better than yours:
> >
> > My zip:
> > https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&zipcode=97219&submit=Go
> > ("Good")
> >
> > Your zip:
> > https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&zipcode=95762&submit=Go
> > ("Moderate")
> >
> > Gads! I'd stay indoors if I were you!
> >
>
> There is still some fire smell in the air. Remember that we had some big
> ones? It was on the news.

Same here, but bigger. http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-columbia-gorge-burns-20170907-story.html Even with all the rain, they are still burning in places.on

>
> Portland is too rainy and cold for us. Also, when moving for retirement
> I'll make 110% sure we won't get into another liberal state. Which is
> why California would be out for that purpose and so is Oregon. Now Idaho
> would be nice but too cold for my wife.

Alabama is for you. I'm not tied to Portland and expect to leave one day, but I'm not moving to some shit hole with supposed right-thinking people. Washington is income tax free. Live in White Salmon and ski/ride on Hood. http://www.blainefranger.com/blog/uploaded_images/_MG_0481_HoodRiver.jpg
PDX is an hour away, and I can cross the bridge and hang-out with the hipsters in Hood River. And PDX is an hour away so my wife and I can travel to some place warm when it gets dreary.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/26/2017 7:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> I'm not tied to Portland and expect to leave one day, but I'm not moving to some shit hole with supposed right-thinking people. Washington is income tax free. Live in White Salmon and ski/ride on Hood. http://www.blainefranger.com/blog/uploaded_images/_MG_0481_HoodRiver.jpg
> PDX is an hour away, and I can cross the bridge and hang-out with the hipsters in Hood River. And PDX is an hour away so my wife and I can travel to some place warm when it gets dreary.

About where to live - a true story:

When my daughter and her husband still lived in Portland, we'd visit a
couple times per year. Portland is a really interesting city. And
Portland's bike shops outnumber ours hundreds to one. Some of them carry
some stuff that's very hard to find around here.

So on one trip, I went into Citybikes (that den of tattooed socialism)
because they actually had a Shimano dynamo hub in stock. As I was paying
for it, I told the fetchingly tattooed cashier girl "I hope the TSA lets
me take this thing on the plane. A metal cylinder with wires dangling
from it may look suspicious." She asked "Where are you flying to?" so I
answered "Ohio."

Her response was wistful jealousy! "Oh, Ohio! My brother goes to college
in Ohio and he LOVES it! He says it's so green and pretty, and it
doesn't rain all winter! He talks about it all the time! I wish I could
move to Ohio!"

And indeed, at dinner tonight with two other couples, we were all saying
how much we love living here. Housing prices and other living expenses
are very low, we're just outside of a small city with unusual cultural
amenities for its size, we're about an hour from any of three larger
cities with even more to offer, and at least for my style of riding, the
bicycling is great.

To explain that latter point: Our little city is old enough to have
primarily a grid pattern. That means if one arterial is unpleasant, I
can choose to ride the residential collector one block over. It's like
an organically grown bike boulevard. And once I ride out of the suburbs
(maybe three miles if that) I'm on a dense network of little country
roads. See, Ohio was settled by farmers, some of the first frontier
settlers. They needed roads to get to each little farm, so there are
lots of low-traffic roads in a rough grid with spacing of about a mile.
There are endless choices for exploring.

And I happen to live within a couple miles of where the glaciers
stopped. That means if I want relatively flat rides, I head north or
west. If I want punishing hills, I head east or south - although I
choose that option less frequently these days.

Finally, I'm in an area known as the Connecticut Western Reserve, which
was originally chartered to Connecticut. Connecticut chose to sell it
off to its state residents before control of the territory was ceded to
the brand new Federal Government. Many of those early settlers brought
along their love for quaint little villages, charming New England
architecture, and village greens with gazebos and such. In rural areas
those old villages are spaced nicely - not too close, but not too far. A
day's bike ride can pass through ten of them, each with handy support
facilities.

When my wife, my daughter and I rode coast to coast, we saw lots and
lots of different types of countryside, different towns and cities. It
confirmed in my mind that this is the area where I want to live.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/26/2017 12:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-11-26 09:16, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>
>> This is a false dichotomy in that all of it can be true and likely is.
>> Choice is good, neither city nor rural life being perfect and humans
>> being by their nature a diverse lot.
>>
>
> Though as humans we need to recognize when we are damaging our bodies
> and the denser the area the more that will happen. This is also why I'll
> never understand people who say "Away with cycle paths, bicycles belong
> on the road". I find that, sorry to say, stupid. Why would anyone in
> their right mind want to travel alongside noisy and polluting combustion
> engines buzzing by?

Another false dichotomy. Riding on the road does not mean ingesting
significant pollution. Several studies have shown that even in city
traffic, cyclists ingest less pollution than motor vehicle operators.
Other studies have shown that bicycle commuters live far longer than
those commuting by other means.

Besides, almost all of my riding involves relatively little traffic even
though I rarely use bike paths. I enjoy riding quiet roads, where I may
be passed by fewer than 20 cars per hour. But even on utility trips in
the city or its suburbs, I can usually choose quieter streets. On our
runs to the grocery store, we choose a route that gives us six miles
round trip. We'll typically be passed by only a dozen cars.

I suppose in some idealistic theory, we could convince the government to
build a separate bike trail between our house and that grocery. But what
if we need to get to the library instead? Or the pharmacy? Or the
hardware store? Or the doctor's office? Or my best friend's house?
Should I stay off my bike until the government builds separate paths to
each of those places, plus all the others I want to visit?

Sorry, Joerg. I chose instead to learn to ride on the roads, and I do so
in perfect comfort and safety. You should try that. https://abea.bike/
Even you can learn to do it.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

If rural life is so wonderful, what drives those people to ruin their
lives by getting into their "long term substance abuse problems" that
you mentioned?

FWIW: When I was about 30 years old I thought it would be wonderful to
live a rural life. I'm extremely glad that I chose otherwise.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

bedroom burbs with airplanes is off the charts along with our German friend.

JB follows

this is nice but not flat more mtb

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1113&bih=610&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=1akbWrCRD86sjwODvZHwBw&q=flagstaff++az&oq=flagstaff++az&gs_l=psy-ab.12..0j0i67k1j0l8.19563.30115.0.31860.10.10.0.0.0.0.232.1847.0j4j5.9.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.9.1835...0i8i30k1.0.15kqpojk8-M

[Joerg]

On 2017-11-26 18:46, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/26/2017 12:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-11-26 09:48, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, November 26, 2017 at 9:03:32 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-11-25 16:30, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> goo.gl/CshRPR
>>>>>
>>>>> assuming your superior healthy is an error ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It isn't an error.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ... around you people are not...
>>>>>
>>>>> the 'satellite city' boom grew more high towers
>>>>>
>>>>> I assume one n 2 stories are cheaper
>>>>>
>>>>> nice photo couldn't find a view north of NYC
>>>>>
>>>>> http://mossien.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Architecture_Rochester_NY.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No ten horses would get me to live there.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards, Joerg
>>>>
>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>>
>>> no no no the local pop's health. who gives a damn abt your health.
>>>
>>
>> I do. If someone choses to smoke which rural folks often do that isn't
>> my problem, it's theirs.
>
> If rural life is so wonderful, what drives those people to ruin their
> lives by getting into their "long term substance abuse problems" that
> you mentioned?
>

Faulty government rules (tell'em pot is "harmless", let's grab those
extra taxes!), peer pressure, sometimes boredom. None of this applies to
us or any of our neighbors.

> FWIW: When I was about 30 years old I thought it would be wonderful to
> live a rural life. I'm extremely glad that I chose otherwise.
>

100% opposite here. Same for my wife who grew up in a huge metropolis
and never ever wants to go back to that sort of living.

[Joerg]

On 2017-11-26 18:57, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/26/2017 12:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-11-26 09:16, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a false dichotomy in that all of it can be true and likely is.
>>> Choice is good, neither city nor rural life being perfect and humans
>>> being by their nature a diverse lot.
>>>
>>
>> Though as humans we need to recognize when we are damaging our bodies
>> and the denser the area the more that will happen. This is also why
>> I'll never understand people who say "Away with cycle paths, bicycles
>> belong on the road". I find that, sorry to say, stupid. Why would
>> anyone in their right mind want to travel alongside noisy and
>> polluting combustion engines buzzing by?
>
> Another false dichotomy. Riding on the road does not mean ingesting
> significant pollution. Several studies have shown that even in city
> traffic, cyclists ingest less pollution than motor vehicle operators.
> Other studies have shown that bicycle commuters live far longer than
> those commuting by other means.
>

Ah yes, you have a magic energy shield around you so the fumes part
right in front of your face. Phhht. I can literally smell just about any
Diesel that comes by.

Cars have HEPA filters and a cocoon-like innard in whcih the operator
resideth, bicycles ... don't.

> Besides, almost all of my riding involves relatively little traffic even
> though I rarely use bike paths. I enjoy riding quiet roads, where I may
> be passed by fewer than 20 cars per hour. But even on utility trips in
> the city or its suburbs, I can usually choose quieter streets. On our
> runs to the grocery store, we choose a route that gives us six miles
> round trip. We'll typically be passed by only a dozen cars.
>

Good luck trying that where a metropolis is 30mi or closer. I sometimes
have to ride during rush our and then it's almost bumper to bumper.

> I suppose in some idealistic theory, we could convince the government to
> build a separate bike trail between our house and that grocery. But what
> if we need to get to the library instead? Or the pharmacy? Or the
> hardware store? Or the doctor's office? Or my best friend's house?
> Should I stay off my bike until the government builds separate paths to
> each of those places, plus all the others I want to visit?
>

If you move to a place such as Folsom, chances are you will find bike
facilities to all of those or at least for the major part of the ride.
Which is why I prefer to do my errand rides there and not in other
communities. So do others. Which results in higher sales tax collections
there. Which results in even better bike path coverage. Which causes
more people to move there. Which ...

> Sorry, Joerg. I chose instead to learn to ride on the roads, and I do so
> in perfect comfort and safety. You should try that. https://abea.bike/
> Even you can learn to do it.
>

I know how to ride.

[Joerg]

On 2017-11-26 16:16, jbeattie wrote:
> On Sunday, November 26, 2017 at 1:30:19 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-11-26 12:11, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

>>> These are ordinary city dwellers who actually ride and who
>>> account for an appreciable share of traffic. They also do
>>> super-gnarly weekend rides where they get to jump in puddles and
>>> drink beer!
>>>
>>> BTW, I was flying with my brother yesterday in one of his planes.
>>> He doesn't work on that plane because it has a RR jet turbine
>>> engine -- not something for the home mechanic.
>>
>>
>> No, and he must be super rich if that's just one of his planes.
>> Attorney?
>
> Airline captain. His day job is flying Dreamliners. The second plane
> is a Cessna 421. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_421 The turbo
> prop is a modified Cessna 210. https://tinyurl.com/y9v5ctsl Both are
> pressurized because he lives in Denver and frequently flies over the
> Rockies with dogs -- rescuing them from various places. He buys used
> planes, as do most plane owners.
>

That's usually a very high-paid job. The first owner of our house who
had it custom-built was a Pan Am pilot and that shows. Serious quality
and stuff that generally wasn't seen in the US in 1970 such as an indoor
barbecue alcove, radiant heat in the floors, phone outlet at the pool,
first attempts at structured wiring and so on. He also had a nice plane
with retractable gear to fly to his job.

[...]

>>> Since when is Cameron Park "country living."
>>
>>
>> Since pretty much forever:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfqa_fXf-DE
>
> Yes, and I can link to trails in Portland fifteen minutes by bike
> from my high-rise, cement, steel and glass tower of urban decay and
> sickness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu7494oIWcc&t=13s

Nice video. We have a long singletrack going right through the village
and connects to other bike path systems. Trails out here are a bit more
scenic, like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y38JzV-ueXI

What I am saying is that Cameron Park has a lot of country living. You
can buy 10-acre properties here with horse stables and all, plus ride
your horse or MTB onto a trial that runs right past your property.

We do not want to live in a high-rise. We want to be able to walk out
the front door and barbecue right there. Even in the driving rain under
a large overhang like we did with bread, ribs and sausages yesterday,
over a real wood fire (not store-bought charcoal). There is no way to
achieve that sort of taste with any indoor appliance. Try that on the
balcony of your high-rise and they'll send the goons out.


> ... Speaking

> of Denver, it has an incredible system of paved and unpaved bike
> lanes, although it is too far away from the Rockies for me. I'd
> rather be in Golden or Boulder.

Hurricane in Utah would be an example of the largest size of community
I'd consider for a move.

>>
>>> ... It's a f***** synthetic community built around a golf course
>>> within commuting distance of SAC. It's a commuter suburb. It's
>>> everything bad about land use and planning in California. It's a
>>> virus. I'd be ashamed to live there. You should move to a real
>>> town -- maybe Hurricane, UT or some other moonscape where the
>>> rugged individuals know how to fix a flat!
>>
>>
>> Hurricane is precisely one of the areas on our radar for a
>> potential retirement move. St.George is too large for me but the
>> surrounding places are nice.
>
> Hurricane is nice compared to the lunar surface. Zion is not close
> enough. I'd live in SLC but for the winter smog -- from wood burning
> stoves, among other things. The canyons are awesome for riding and
> skiing.
>
> There may be some place in the Southwest I'd consider -- but there is
> no way I could acclimate to the Mesquite/Hurricane area. I could live
> in a Sonoran desert but not a Nevada nuke site. I'm also not going to
> live a zillion miles from an international airport. You're a
> convenient drive to SAC. Wait until its four or five hours to a real
> airport.
>

That doesn't matter anymore. Last year it happened for the first time
and this year for the second, where the number of business flights was
zero. I can consult and even modify drawings on other people's computers
thousands of miles away. I can even operate tools such as an
oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer sitting at the other ocean. If
something is really tricky and I need to work on a prototype myself
there is Fedex.

[...]

>> Portland is too rainy and cold for us. Also, when moving for
>> retirement I'll make 110% sure we won't get into another liberal
>> state. Which is why California would be out for that purpose and so
>> is Oregon. Now Idaho would be nice but too cold for my wife.
>
> Alabama is for you. I'm not tied to Portland and expect to leave one
> day, but I'm not moving to some shit hole with supposed
> right-thinking people. Washington is income tax free. Live in White
> Salmon and ski/ride on Hood.
> http://www.blainefranger.com/blog/uploaded_images/_MG_0481_HoodRiver.jpg
>

I have spend lots of time in WA state. Would be fine for me but too cold
for her.

>
> PDX is an hour away, and I can cross the bridge and hang-out with the
hipsters in Hood River. And PDX is an hour away so my wife and I can
travel to some place warm when it gets dreary.

That what people in WA did a lot. When major purchases were contemplated
they borrowed or rented a truck nad headed to OR because no sales tax.
Even though it was a long ride from north Kirkland and other places of
Seattle.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Portland is like Hawaii ! Ceptin the rain ... Sometimes...

FLA pre condo 1985 AAA... 1952 out sight Seychelles...clear water...Ford/Edison

Finding a place is easy...go mobile. Finding security in a place ? $$$$$$$

There are AAA places but $$$$$$$ is necessary for cultural isolation. Yawl cannah move into Harlem without AAA.

I long for 19th C hayfield n woods clear streams ... n 21 C Civ Tech

Fla is AAA. But mosquito control is difficult. I'm at winter Yuma relishing clean air.

Bicycling AAA but dangerous.

I would tour Internet suggested areas.

Best deal is go mobile.. Class A motorcoach N-S seasonal. Ford GT

J's diagnosis is J is a burbian.

But why then move ? Many want to move into J but only Cals move to Portland.

My view is NE Ivy ...I'm the kid in the TV Xmas commercials..really freaky stuff no ? Great ride

Ask Cresswell

[Joerg]

Such stress is often subconscious and not openly felt but it's there.
Honking, screeching tires, hustle and bustle, police sirens, general
traffic noise in the city ... versus tranquility, bird chirping, gentle
leaf rustling, rooster crowing in the country. It has been studied
scientifically many times.

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110622/full/474429a.html

[jbeattie]

Population pressures can cause stress, but remote, sparsely populated areas can be stressful, too, and some places are simply alienating -- socially and visually.

And there are dangers of living in a truly remote area. It is like skiing out of bounds. If you get hurt, you better have a beacon and an evacuation strategy.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Well, you're certainly into dichotomies.

In reality, there's quite a spectrum of living or housing densities; and there are people who choose every condition on that spectrum, from hermits living in caves to city denizens living in 500 square foot efficiency apartments packed into skyscrapers. Each choice has its own benefits and detriments.

One problem with the most fashionable choice (which is a new development in some cornfield, within driving distance of city amenities) is that the choice is extremely dependent on transportation by car, and consumes resources very inefficiently. Yes, there is one hero in Cameron Park who does epic bike rides to avoid using his car. But for every bike hero who moves to such a place, there are hundreds of motorists who say "It's another half hour to my job and the grocery store, but I don't mind."

Then, once the community is established, developers spot the opportunity for a convenience store and gas station out at the highway. They'll run power lines and sewer out to that. The new sewer will trigger another housing development, which sprouts an entire plaza by the highway, which attracts more housing. And so it goes, an endless cycle of paving the rural landscape.

All this demands money to extend the infrastructure. It paves more ground to generate flash runoff from storms, increases the area the police must patrol, lengthens the routes of the school bus and trash pickup, etc. On a global scale, it's far less "green" than dense city living.

And it's all done so people can satisfy their atavistic pioneer urges - but ruin the atmosphere for the few that have always lived there.

Years ago, I came across a poster by Robert Crumb that summarized all this. It had about a dozen panels showing one intersection of roads as time marched on decade by decade. It started with a pretty rural scene with two dirt roads and a large shade tree. It progressed through "development" step by step, ending with a dingy scene with clotted car traffic in front of crumbling buildings with trash blowing. The caption, IIRC, was "What are we doing?"

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 10:25:02 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-11-26 18:57, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 11/26/2017 12:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
> >> On 2017-11-26 09:16, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This is a false dichotomy in that all of it can be true and likely is.
> >>> Choice is good, neither city nor rural life being perfect and humans
> >>> being by their nature a diverse lot.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Though as humans we need to recognize when we are damaging our bodies
> >> and the denser the area the more that will happen. This is also why
> >> I'll never understand people who say "Away with cycle paths, bicycles
> >> belong on the road". I find that, sorry to say, stupid. Why would
> >> anyone in their right mind want to travel alongside noisy and
> >> polluting combustion engines buzzing by?
> >
> > Another false dichotomy. Riding on the road does not mean ingesting
> > significant pollution. Several studies have shown that even in city
> > traffic, cyclists ingest less pollution than motor vehicle operators.
> > Other studies have shown that bicycle commuters live far longer than
> > those commuting by other means.
> >
>
> Ah yes, you have a magic energy shield around you so the fumes part
> right in front of your face. Phhht. I can literally smell just about any
> Diesel that comes by.
>
> Cars have HEPA filters and a cocoon-like innard in whcih the operator
> resideth, bicycles ... don't.

IOW, "Don't bother me with scientific studies. My own imagination is infallible."

> > Besides, almost all of my riding involves relatively little traffic even
> > though I rarely use bike paths. I enjoy riding quiet roads, where I may
> > be passed by fewer than 20 cars per hour. But even on utility trips in
> > the city or its suburbs, I can usually choose quieter streets. On our
> > runs to the grocery store, we choose a route that gives us six miles
> > round trip. We'll typically be passed by only a dozen cars.
> >
>
> Good luck trying that where a metropolis is 30mi or closer. I sometimes
> have to ride during rush our and then it's almost bumper to bumper.

Oh dear, you poor baby! Imagine! Sometimes having to ride in rush hour!

But I'm sure you've convinced those in power to add a completely separate bike facility along all of your routes, right? After all, you seem to think that's the only solution to your problem.

Oh - and I'm sure your completely separate bike paths will be hermetically sealed, and given their own supply of filtered and purified air, right? It wouldn't do to have them downwind from some cars. One can't be too careful!

> > I suppose in some idealistic theory, we could convince the government to
> > build a separate bike trail between our house and that grocery. But what
> > if we need to get to the library instead? Or the pharmacy? Or the
> > hardware store? Or the doctor's office? Or my best friend's house?
> > Should I stay off my bike until the government builds separate paths to
> > each of those places, plus all the others I want to visit?
> >
>
> If you move to a place such as Folsom, chances are you will find bike
> facilities to all of those or at least for the major part of the ride.

Why, that's wonderful! So everyone should just move to Folsom... whose bike mode share is about one percent, IIRC.

But as I recall, you weren't talking about moving to Folsom yourself. Last we heard, you were going to flee to some conservative bastion, some place that doesn't collect taxes from the innocent citizens and waste them on froufrou playthings like bike paths.

> Which is why I prefer to do my errand rides there and not in other
> communities. So do others. Which results in higher sales tax collections
> there. Which results in even better bike path coverage. Which causes
> more people to move there. Which ...
>
>
> > Sorry, Joerg. I chose instead to learn to ride on the roads, and I do so
> > in perfect comfort and safety. You should try that. https://abea.bike/
> > Even you can learn to do it.
> >
>
> I know how to ride.

And there's one of bicycling's biggest problems. Everyone over 12 thinks "I know how to ride." They can't imagine there's anything they don't already know, so they absolutely refuse to consider learning anything. It's Dunning-Kruger in full force.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Then, another developer spots the opportunity. Suddenly, an industrial
park starts to sprout just as it did in Cameron Park. Voila, people can
almost walk to work. This is why I have a client right here in the
village. Normally I handle just about everything via online conference
but in their case I hop on the bike. Best of all, they are almost
adjacent to our singletrack which connects to other towns. Occasionally
I need to network with a software engineer because it's something I am
not skilled in and don't want to be. His home office is right at that
singletrack.

Oh, and we also have three supermarkets. Last time I got gas for my car
was ... heck, I can't even remember and that's because it was many
months ago. Some time in summer or so.

> All this demands money to extend the infrastructure. It paves more
> ground to generate flash runoff from storms, increases the area the
> police must patrol, lengthens the routes of the school bus and trash
> pickup, etc. On a global scale, it's far less "green" than dense city
> living.
>
> And it's all done so people can satisfy their atavistic pioneer urges
> - but ruin the atmosphere for the few that have always lived there.
>

Unless it's done right.

> Years ago, I came across a poster by Robert Crumb that summarized all
> this. It had about a dozen panels showing one intersection of roads
> as time marched on decade by decade. It started with a pretty rural
> scene with two dirt roads and a large shade tree. It progressed
> through "development" step by step, ending with a dingy scene with
> clotted car traffic in front of crumbling buildings with trash
> blowing. The caption, IIRC, was "What are we doing?"
>

You have to have space for the people. Shoe-horning them all into a
tightly packed city full of concrete and fumes is not helping and a lot
of people don't want that to be living like sardines in a can.

[Joerg]

That goes for you. When have you last seen a bicycle with a HEPA filter?
Do you know what a HEPA filter is?

>>> Besides, almost all of my riding involves relatively little
>>> traffic even though I rarely use bike paths. I enjoy riding quiet
>>> roads, where I may be passed by fewer than 20 cars per hour. But
>>> even on utility trips in the city or its suburbs, I can usually
>>> choose quieter streets. On our runs to the grocery store, we
>>> choose a route that gives us six miles round trip. We'll
>>> typically be passed by only a dozen cars.
>>>
>>
>> Good luck trying that where a metropolis is 30mi or closer. I
>> sometimes have to ride during rush our and then it's almost bumper
>> to bumper.
>
> Oh dear, you poor baby! Imagine! Sometimes having to ride in rush
> hour!
>
> But I'm sure you've convinced those in power to add a completely
> separate bike facility along all of your routes, right? After all,
> you seem to think that's the only solution to your problem.
>

It is the only environmentally friendly one. The other solution is to
use the car.

> Oh - and I'm sure your completely separate bike paths will be
> hermetically sealed, and given their own supply of filtered and
> purified air, right? It wouldn't do to have them downwind from some
> cars. One can't be too careful!
>

The one I took on Friday does come close to roads and even ... <gasp>
... Highway 50 at one spot where you can hear faint vroom vroom sounds.
Smells? Pine needle scent, foliage, earth, and oo, the occasionally
horse poop. I rather smell horse poop than the soot from a big Diesel.
You might be so city-addicted that you don't notice the difference but I
sure do.

>>> I suppose in some idealistic theory, we could convince the
>>> government to build a separate bike trail between our house and
>>> that grocery. But what if we need to get to the library instead?
>>> Or the pharmacy? Or the hardware store? Or the doctor's office?
>>> Or my best friend's house? Should I stay off my bike until the
>>> government builds separate paths to each of those places, plus
>>> all the others I want to visit?
>>>
>>
>> If you move to a place such as Folsom, chances are you will find
>> bike facilities to all of those or at least for the major part of
>> the ride.
>
> Why, that's wonderful! So everyone should just move to Folsom...

Lots of people do. They told me that was one of the key reasons to move
there and not to other areas like where we live.

> whose bike mode share is about one percent, IIRC.
>

Slightly higher by now but I doubt it'll ever go higher. We have
discussed this ad nauseam. This is America and not Denmark. People are
different. You could give many of our people a free $1000 eliptical and
it would just collect dust. The couch in front of the 55" TV won't.

> But as I recall, you weren't talking about moving to Folsom yourself.
> Last we heard, you were going to flee to some conservative bastion,
> some place that doesn't collect taxes from the innocent citizens and
> waste them on froufrou playthings like bike paths.
>

They do have bike paths there, lots of them including very scenic ones.
They've got their priorities right.

https://www.mtbproject.com/directory/8012285/hurricane-and-la-verkin

>
>> Which is why I prefer to do my errand rides there and not in other
>> communities. So do others. Which results in higher sales tax
>> collections there. Which results in even better bike path coverage.
>> Which causes more people to move there. Which ...
>>
>>
>>> Sorry, Joerg. I chose instead to learn to ride on the roads, and
>>> I do so in perfect comfort and safety. You should try that.
>>> https://abea.bike/ Even you can learn to do it.
>>>
>>
>> I know how to ride.
>
> And there's one of bicycling's biggest problems. Everyone over 12
> thinks "I know how to ride." They can't imagine there's anything they
> don't already know, so they absolutely refuse to consider learning
> anything. It's Dunning-Kruger in full force.
>

Of course, you will never accept anyone who has even a slightly
different opinion than you do. Doesn't matter to me.

[Joerg]

Why visually? While other people look at the bland outer walls of the
next high-rises I look at vistas like this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork1.JPG

Socially, yes, if someone has problems in that domain they should not
live out in the country. I am quite happy with the number of friends I
have here and also consider friendship with animals to be very
rewarding. On my last ride I spent around 1/2h with horses. When they
see my helmet bobbing in the distance they start coming. Even some wild
animals are quite social. Deer, foxes, birds. After a while they
recognize people they see a lot and behave quite friendly. Especially if
one makes the time for them.

In the city people honk if you stop "needlessly". Even cyclists have
hollered "Don't block the path!" when I dared to pet a dog. They
obviously felt inconvenienced to move the handlebar a few milli-degrees
to ride around us. I once inadvertently blocked a singletrack because a
horse wanted a nose rub. Another rider came up from behind, hopped off
and gave the next horse a nose rub. Then we talked about trails and
stuff for 15 minutes. That's what I call country living.

> And there are dangers of living in a truly remote area. It is like
> skiing out of bounds. If you get hurt, you better have a beacon and
> an evacuation strategy.
>

Very aware of that. This is why there are rocky downhill stretches that
I walk down when I ride alone. So far I mostly have to because people
consider MTB rides longer than 20mi or road bike ride of more than 35mi
"crazy". I'll also have to get a portable 2m radio because cell phones
don't work well out there.

[jbeattie]

Boring brown foothills. I was raised in an area like that. The action is up the road in the Sierra -- which are stunning.

I look at vistas like this, which is shot from my commute route: https://multco.us/sites/default/files/styles/medium/public/images/portlandskyline.jpg?itok=iYuM17n-

I work in the tall white building and have an unobstructed view of Mt. Hood. I can jump on my bike and go here: http://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/sunset-over-crown-point-jon-ares.jpg 70 miles out and back. Longer gravel ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4Zj5JTj6uk

In fact, I can go snow skiing, bike riding, hiking, windsurfing, brew-pubbing, distillery hopping, etc., etc. all in one summer day (theoretically, if I had the energy). http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/jun/01/summer-skiing-mt-hood-provides-year-round-access-t/#/3

Timberline is about an hour and a half by car from my loathsome urban home.

> Socially, yes, if someone has problems in that domain they should not
> live out in the country. I am quite happy with the number of friends I
> have here and also consider friendship with animals to be very
> rewarding. On my last ride I spent around 1/2h with horses. When they
> see my helmet bobbing in the distance they start coming. Even some wild
> animals are quite social. Deer, foxes, birds. After a while they
> recognize people they see a lot and behave quite friendly. Especially if
> one makes the time for them.

Dear St. Francis, I'm not talking about being lonely and communing with the animals. I'm talking about living in a cow-town east of the Cascades where being from Portland makes me a presumptive tree-hugging, faggot communist. I've been to tiny towns in Idaho and Montana where the locals were downright hostile to cyclists. If you moved to Hurricane, you would never quite fit into the dominant culture -- unless you convert.

>
> In the city people honk if you stop "needlessly". Even cyclists have
> hollered "Don't block the path!" when I dared to pet a dog. They
> obviously felt inconvenienced to move the handlebar a few milli-degrees
> to ride around us. I once inadvertently blocked a singletrack because a
> horse wanted a nose rub. Another rider came up from behind, hopped off
> and gave the next horse a nose rub. Then we talked about trails and
> stuff for 15 minutes. That's what I call country living.

I get a flat tire, and I have fifty people ask me if I need help -- which does get tiring. And yes, there is nasty city traffic and honking motor vehicles. It's a big city, and that is why I am moving back to Portland in 1978 -- or Los Gatos in 1968. I see no other options than time travel.

BTW, I walk on a horse trail and don't find it particularly enjoyable. Here: https://tinyurl.com/y7sqb7j5 That is about a mile from my godless, urban wasteland of a home. My wife and I do a lot of walking around Tryon Creek. I bet you don't have a little suspension bridge in your back yard! http://www.oregonhikers.org/w/images/thumb/b/bc/TerryRileyBridge1.jpg/400px-TerryRileyBridge1.jpg

>
>
> > And there are dangers of living in a truly remote area. It is like
> > skiing out of bounds. If you get hurt, you better have a beacon and
> > an evacuation strategy.
> >
>
> Very aware of that. This is why there are rocky downhill stretches that
> I walk down when I ride alone. So far I mostly have to because people
> consider MTB rides longer than 20mi or road bike ride of more than 35mi
> "crazy". I'll also have to get a portable 2m radio because cell phones
> don't work well out there.

You must hang with a dopey cohort. Around here, nobody marvels at a 35 mile road ride. Half the city rides CX. https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6171/6205994785_538f04fd1d.jpg
http://www.cxmagazine.com/racers-numbered-cows-cross-crusade-kickoff-sets-attendance-record

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 4:16:23 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-11-27 12:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 10:25:02 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
> >> On 2017-11-26 18:57, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Another false dichotomy. Riding on the road does not mean
> >>> ingesting significant pollution. Several studies have shown that
> >>> even in city traffic, cyclists ingest less pollution than motor
> >>> vehicle operators. Other studies have shown that bicycle
> >>> commuters live far longer than those commuting by other means.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Ah yes, you have a magic energy shield around you so the fumes
> >> part right in front of your face. Phhht. I can literally smell just
> >> about any Diesel that comes by.
> >>
> >> Cars have HEPA filters and a cocoon-like innard in whcih the
> >> operator resideth, bicycles ... don't.
> >
> >
> > IOW, "Don't bother me with scientific studies. My own imagination is
> > infallible."
> >
>
> That goes for you. When have you last seen a bicycle with a HEPA filter?
> Do you know what a HEPA filter is?

Yes I do, Joerg. I worked as a plant engineer, then I was in charge of several labs at the university. What you don't seem to understand is that smelling a diesel is not equivalent to ingesting a significant amount of pollution. They are identical only in your imagination.

One of your biggest logical problems is equating your imagination with actual fact. You stumble over that time and again.

> >>> Besides, almost all of my riding involves relatively little
> >>> traffic even though I rarely use bike paths. I enjoy riding quiet
> >>> roads, where I may be passed by fewer than 20 cars per hour. But
> >>> even on utility trips in the city or its suburbs, I can usually
> >>> choose quieter streets. On our runs to the grocery store, we
> >>> choose a route that gives us six miles round trip. We'll
> >>> typically be passed by only a dozen cars.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Good luck trying that where a metropolis is 30mi or closer. I
> >> sometimes have to ride during rush our and then it's almost bumper
> >> to bumper.
> >
> > Oh dear, you poor baby! Imagine! Sometimes having to ride in rush
> > hour!
> >
> > But I'm sure you've convinced those in power to add a completely
> > separate bike facility along all of your routes, right? After all,
> > you seem to think that's the only solution to your problem.
> >
>
> It is the only environmentally friendly one. The other solution is to
> use the car.

Bullshit. You completely ignore or discount the idea of riding a bike on a normal street or road, something that most of us here probably do almost every day. That is more environmentally friendly than wasting resources to pave more of the earth. It has the added benefit of allowing you to ride to almost any practical destination, not just those along a kiddie path.

> > Oh - and I'm sure your completely separate bike paths will be
> > hermetically sealed, and given their own supply of filtered and
> > purified air, right? It wouldn't do to have them downwind from some
> > cars. One can't be too careful!
> >
>
> The one I took on Friday does come close to roads and even ... <gasp>
> ... Highway 50 at one spot where you can hear faint vroom vroom sounds.
> Smells? Pine needle scent, foliage, earth, and oo, the occasionally
> horse poop. I rather smell horse poop than the soot from a big Diesel.
> You might be so city-addicted that you don't notice the difference but I
> sure do.

Ah, so you don't demand a bike path sealed against pollution? If some separation is sufficient, is that because the amount of pollution is diluted by distance and is below some limit?

Shall we pursue this? What is the limit, and how should we determine it?

My contention is that riding fairly quiet streets (like today's ten miles to the credit union, plus my ride to the post office) puts one way below any reasonable limit of pollution exposure.

And as evidence, I'll link to easily available articles showing that bike commuting increases longevity. That's true even in places where there are few bike facilities, and in places where those on the bike facilities can smell the nearby diesel fumes. The Netherlands really doesn't seal off its bike paths, you know.

https://www.bicycling.com/training/fitness/ride-your-life

http://time.com/4748377/commute-biking-walking-longevity/

http://mentalfloss.com/article/79211/biking-may-increase-life-expectancy-study-finds

Those articles refer to three separate studies in three different locations, all with the same general result - a result that disagrees with your fearful imagination. They indicate that riding a bike in very normal city environments
is not detrimental to your health. Instead, it's highly beneficial.

> >>> Sorry, Joerg. I chose instead to learn to ride on the roads, and
> >>> I do so in perfect comfort and safety. You should try that.
> >>> https://abea.bike/ Even you can learn to do it.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I know how to ride.
> >
> > And there's one of bicycling's biggest problems. Everyone over 12
> > thinks "I know how to ride." They can't imagine there's anything they
> > don't already know, so they absolutely refuse to consider learning
> > anything. It's Dunning-Kruger in full force.
> >
>
> Of course, you will never accept anyone who has even a slightly
> different opinion than you do. Doesn't matter to me.

I have accepted reasonable input and changed my views on many issues, including on issues discussed in this forum. When I'm presented with evidence, I evaluate it and compare it with other evidence. Occasionally I've found that I was wrong.

What I don't accept are opinions whose source are just a paranoid's imagination.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:16:19 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Quite the opposite I would say. and, yes, I grew up in a rural
environment so I am familiar with all the smells that exist "out in
the country". But to those who actually reside in that environment
don't even notice them, they are part of the normal atmosphere.

It is only the city slickers who comment on "Oh... Smell the pine
trees. Of course there is an odor of pine trees, there ought to be as
all you can see is pine trees for miles around.

Your comment about smelling "horse poop" is a dead giveaway. The
correct term is "horse manure" and it is a normal part of the rural
atmosphere, or at least the normal rural atmosphere in areas where
horses are kept. In other areas it might be cow manure or chicken
manure and is a perfectly normal part of the environment where those
critters are raised.

You remind me of the city folk that pay extra to buy the "organic"
vegetables that are grown in a chemical free environment... so you can
be sure that none of those nasty nitrogen rich chemicals are never,
never used.

What you do to maintain the chemicals necessary to support plant life
is spread "natural" fertilizers... i.e. manure on the farm land.

So (to be a bit vulgar) first you grow the veggies in shit and then
you charge the city folks extra for doing so :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

Not at all boring. I sat there on the side of the trail with home-made
bread, good cheese and sausage, plus a thermos with homebrew IPA. On the
way back I saw traffic on the river and raced the MTB down there.
Amazing, rush hour on the American River:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork2.JPG

Also I nice opportunity for a little swim.

> I look at vistas like this, which is shot from my commute route:
> https://multco.us/sites/default/files/styles/medium/public/images/portlandskyline.jpg?itok=iYuM17n-
>

Without all these high-rises it would be a much prettier picture.

> I work in the tall white building and have an unobstructed view of
> Mt. Hood. I can jump on my bike and go here:
> http://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/sunset-over-crown-point-jon-ares.jpg
> 70 miles out and back.

Very nice. However, I do not need to ride 35mi to get there. I can ride
5-10mi and sit in rolling green meadows that look like Switzerland. No
noise other than the occasional mooh from cows or a horse whinnying.
That is one of my places to go to think through a tough engineering
challenge.


> ... Longer gravel ride:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4Zj5JTj6uk
>

Too much road. When I need to pick up something from Lowes or from the
brewing supply place I sometimes take this route:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44zqIKf2T_I

I don't have to specifically travel out there, it's just part of the ride.

> In fact, I can go snow skiing, bike riding, hiking, windsurfing,
> brew-pubbing, distillery hopping, etc., etc. all in one summer day
> (theoretically, if I had the energy).
> http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/jun/01/summer-skiing-mt-hood-provides-year-round-access-t/#/3
>

So could I.

> Timberline is about an hour and a half by car from my loathsome
> urban home.
>

Right, by car. There is the point. I can _ride_ to various singletracks
without involving any sort of motor vehicle yet it doesn't take me
forever to get there.

>> Socially, yes, if someone has problems in that domain they should
>> not live out in the country. I am quite happy with the number of
>> friends I have here and also consider friendship with animals to be
>> very rewarding. On my last ride I spent around 1/2h with horses.
>> When they see my helmet bobbing in the distance they start coming.
>> Even some wild animals are quite social. Deer, foxes, birds. After
>> a while they recognize people they see a lot and behave quite
>> friendly. Especially if one makes the time for them.
>
> Dear St. Francis, I'm not talking about being lonely and communing
> with the animals. I'm talking about living in a cow-town east of the
> Cascades where being from Portland makes me a presumptive
> tree-hugging, faggot communist. I've been to tiny towns in Idaho and
> Montana where the locals were downright hostile to cyclists. If you
> moved to Hurricane, you would never quite fit into the dominant
> culture -- unless you convert.
>

Yep, an MTB rider on Friday who has relatives there told me that people
in Southern Utah can be a bit "rednecky". Especially when they find out
you are from the Peoples Republic of California.

You can't have everything, got to compromise.

>>
>> In the city people honk if you stop "needlessly". Even cyclists
>> have hollered "Don't block the path!" when I dared to pet a dog.
>> They obviously felt inconvenienced to move the handlebar a few
>> milli-degrees to ride around us. I once inadvertently blocked a
>> singletrack because a horse wanted a nose rub. Another rider came
>> up from behind, hopped off and gave the next horse a nose rub. Then
>> we talked about trails and stuff for 15 minutes. That's what I call
>> country living.
>
> I get a flat tire, and I have fifty people ask me if I need help --
> which does get tiring. And yes, there is nasty city traffic and
> honking motor vehicles. It's a big city, and that is why I am moving
> back to Portland in 1978 -- or Los Gatos in 1968. I see no other
> options than time travel.
>

In your job you almost have to. As a self-employed engineer I can work
remotely. About the only requirement these days is that there is a fast
Internet connection and that Fedex goes there.

> BTW, I walk on a horse trail and don't find it particularly
> enjoyable. Here: https://tinyurl.com/y7sqb7j5 That is about a mile
> from my godless, urban wasteland of a home. My wife and I do a lot of
> walking around Tryon Creek. I bet you don't have a little suspension
> bridge in your back yard!
> http://www.oregonhikers.org/w/images/thumb/b/bc/TerryRileyBridge1.jpg/400px-TerryRileyBridge1.jpg
>

Ours are built trestle-style. The biggest one is acorss Weber Creek:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YxF0qMon4v0/URsF1OojpsI/AAAAAAAAHd8/orZfLiDDxIs/s640/IMG_0525.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SiOfjE7C-sA/URsGNMws7MI/AAAAAAAAHeE/W06bWja2sM8/s640/IMG_0530.JPG

For those who are faint of hard it's better not to look down over the
railing.

>>
>>> And there are dangers of living in a truly remote area. It is
>>> like skiing out of bounds. If you get hurt, you better have a
>>> beacon and an evacuation strategy.
>>>
>>
>> Very aware of that. This is why there are rocky downhill stretches
>> that I walk down when I ride alone. So far I mostly have to because
>> people consider MTB rides longer than 20mi or road bike ride of
>> more than 35mi "crazy". I'll also have to get a portable 2m radio
>> because cell phones don't work well out there.
>
> You must hang with a dopey cohort. Around here, nobody marvels at a
> 35 mile road ride. Half the city rides CX.
> https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6171/6205994785_538f04fd1d.jpg
> http://www.cxmagazine.com/racers-numbered-cows-cross-crusade-kickoff-sets-attendance-record
>

I don't know either what's so crazy about a 35mi ride. I the old days
(in Europe) we often did those out of the blue, just to have a beer in
Maastricht. Regardless of the weather.

One of the problems is that many of the people here just work, work,
work. On Saturday it's honey-do projects that are almost non-negotiable
(same in my case) and in the week they can't ride during daytime. I just
tell my clients I am out of office all day tomorrow and ride until the
keister hurts.

What a lot of people do not realize is that amassing wealth will not
protect them much from old-age ailments. Some day they retire and then
find out soon after that they can't ride anymore. Better to have a not
so nice bike and ... ride.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 5:42:37 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped

> Boring brown foothills. I was raised in an area like that. The action is up the road in the Sierra -- which are stunning.
>
> I look at vistas like this, which is shot from my commute route: https://multco.us/sites/default/files/styles/medium/public/images/portlandskyline.jpg?itok=iYuM17n-
>
> I work in the tall white building and have an unobstructed view of Mt. Hood. I can jump on my bike and go here: http://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/sunset-over-crown-point-jon-ares.jpg 70 miles out and back. Longer gravel ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4Zj5JTj6uk
>
> In fact, I can go snow skiing, bike riding, hiking, windsurfing, brew-pubbing, distillery hopping, etc., etc. all in one summer day (theoretically, if I had the energy). http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/jun/01/summer-skiing-mt-hood-provides-year-round-access-t/#/3
>
> Timberline is about an hour and a half by car from my loathsome urban home.
>

Snipped

But you must rememberthat Joerg demands/needs access to bre-pubs, pubs or other places he can get booze.

Joerg's BS is so high you can probably fertilize the entire wheat belt with it.

Cheers

[John B.]

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 09:38:07 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Quite obviously you have never really lived in the country. Honking,
screeching, indeed.

What you have in the country is roosters that get up before daylight
to proclaim their rights to the big manure pile that they claim as
their fief. The cows bellowing to be milked... Good Lord, the
pressures! If you do go to town you have the be careful to be back for
milking time. No sleeping in on weekends the cows got to be milked and
the chickens fed and the eggs gathered. No two weeks vacation either,
you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
anything to eat next winter.

And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All you
need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant and away you
go. A government funded study. We get them over here. Every few years
you see an article in the Bangkok newspaper about someone that got yet
another grant to study "Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the
fact that prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:32:08 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

But that isn't "country living" it is just another example of city
folk" talking about something they don't understand.

You stopped to rub a horse's nose when real country life is shoveling
the horse manure out of the horse's stall. Your socially inclined
foxes kill the chickens that are laying the eggs that you eat for
breakfast. Those friendly birds are arriving in flocks... to eat your
newly sown seeds.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

And when you finally get the kids through collage they scamper off for
the city where the good jobs are :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

Nope. Timberline is the only place in the continental US with year-round, lift-served skiing. And you do not have Hood River on the way home: https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g51909-i40971673-Hood_River_Oregon.html

Not that I'm a wind surfer, but I have ridden to summer ski. My wife drove because I don't have a gnarly rack that will carry my skis -- also made in Portland. https://shop.on3pskis.com/

This reminds me why I live in a city -- which does suck in many respects, particularly with all the rain in Portland. But I like the fact that I can ride, drive, bus, walk, train to the shop where my skis were made and talk to the guys who made them. It's right up there with petting a horse on the nose. I can walk to the grocery store from my house; ride with my neighbor buddy, go to a restaurant that doesn't suck -- see a movie not on my television.

A big city like NYC would be too much. I have to be close to a rural area, but I could not imagine living in Toadsuck, drinking bad coffee at the Toadsuck Cafe and waiting for my shift cables to come via UPS so I can go out for a ride through the god-forsaken, tree-less desert by myself.


-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/27/2017 5:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> BTW, I walk on a horse trail and don't find it particularly enjoyable. Here: https://tinyurl.com/y7sqb7j5 That is about a mile from my godless, urban wasteland of a home. My wife and I do a lot of walking around Tryon Creek. I bet you don't have a little suspension bridge in your back yard! http://www.oregonhikers.org/w/images/thumb/b/bc/TerryRileyBridge1.jpg/400px-TerryRileyBridge1.jpg

Just incidentally, we do have a very similar suspension bridge in our
local forest preserve. The forest entrance is about half a mile from my
house, riding or walking on very quiet residential streets. The
suspension bridge is maybe half a mile farther.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Everyone should have a forest trail with a little suspension bridge. Maybe we could get Trump to wrap it into the new tax plan. I'm not excited about the horses on the horse trail though. The owners should carry 30 gallon Glad bags to pick up the crap -- like dog owners. One route to the trail head is quiet -- the other is not, but it has a wide sidewalk. The quiet route has sidewalk. I'm outraged that city planners don't understand that I need a sidewalk.

-- Jay Beattie.

[avag...@gmail.com]

goo.gl/SZJvGK

goo.gl/7Suz1m

goo.gl/vvqJXp

[AMuzi]

Grant? I always just paid up and left.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

On 11/27/2017 6:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-11-27 14:42, jbeattie wrote:

>> On November 27, 2017, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-11-27 11:55, jbeattie wrote:

>>>> On November 27, 2017, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-11-26 16:08, John B. wrote:

>>>>>> On 26 Nov 2017, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2017-11-26 07:18, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/25/2017 3:05 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2017-11-25 12:51, avag...@gmail.com wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> On November 25, 2017, avag...@gmail.com wrote:

-snip the whole damned lot of it-

> What a lot of people do not realize is that amassing wealth
> will not protect them much from old-age ailments. Some day
> they retire and then find out soon after that they can't
> ride anymore. Better to have a not so nice bike and ... ride.

+1
Finally a point with which I heartily agree.

[Duane]

On 27/11/2017 5:42 PM, jbeattie wrote:
<snip>

> You must hang with a dopey cohort. Around here, nobody marvels at a 35 mile road ride. Half the city rides CX. https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6171/6205994785_538f04fd1d.jpg
> http://www.cxmagazine.com/racers-numbered-cows-cross-crusade-kickoff-sets-attendance-record

Yeah but you don't live in such a dangerous place where 35 miles would
be full of mountain lions and dragons and stuff like that. We can't
compare our mundane 100k rides with that.

[jbeattie]

I would trade the piles of wet leaves for clear pavement, two mountain lions and a dragon. At least I could carry speed through the corners while being chased. Dragons have a crappy turn radius.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

Ah yes, the imaginary glass wall around you while riding. When I start
to cough after a few miles of Green Valley Road during rush hour I know
exactly where that comes from. Not surprisingly it stops once I've
turned away from that road and it doesn't happen if I do not use that
road or avoid rush hour.

Most fun is when a school bus goes by like one on these:

https://www.nsf.gov/news/mmg/media/images/sealevel5_f.jpg

> One of your biggest logical problems is equating your imagination
> with actual fact. You stumble over that time and again.
>

When you can smell it then it goes into your lungs unless you stop
breathing. Which is hard to do uphill on a bicycle. It's simple.

>
>>>>> Besides, almost all of my riding involves relatively little
>>>>> traffic even though I rarely use bike paths. I enjoy riding
>>>>> quiet roads, where I may be passed by fewer than 20 cars per
>>>>> hour. But even on utility trips in the city or its suburbs, I
>>>>> can usually choose quieter streets. On our runs to the
>>>>> grocery store, we choose a route that gives us six miles
>>>>> round trip. We'll typically be passed by only a dozen cars.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good luck trying that where a metropolis is 30mi or closer. I
>>>> sometimes have to ride during rush our and then it's almost
>>>> bumper to bumper.
>>>
>>> Oh dear, you poor baby! Imagine! Sometimes having to ride in
>>> rush hour!
>>>
>>> But I'm sure you've convinced those in power to add a completely
>>> separate bike facility along all of your routes, right? After
>>> all, you seem to think that's the only solution to your problem.
>>>
>>
>> It is the only environmentally friendly one. The other solution is
>> to use the car.
>
> Bullshit. You completely ignore or discount the idea of riding a bike
> on a normal street or road, something that most of us here probably
> do almost every day. That is more environmentally friendly than
> wasting resources to pave more of the earth. It has the added benefit
> of allowing you to ride to almost any practical destination, not just
> those along a kiddie path.
>

On some roads you might as well pick up smoking, it won't make much of a
difference.

>>> Oh - and I'm sure your completely separate bike paths will be
>>> hermetically sealed, and given their own supply of filtered and
>>> purified air, right? It wouldn't do to have them downwind from
>>> some cars. One can't be too careful!
>>>
>>
>> The one I took on Friday does come close to roads and even ...
>> <gasp> ... Highway 50 at one spot where you can hear faint vroom
>> vroom sounds. Smells? Pine needle scent, foliage, earth, and oo,
>> the occasionally horse poop. I rather smell horse poop than the
>> soot from a big Diesel. You might be so city-addicted that you
>> don't notice the difference but I sure do.
>
> Ah, so you don't demand a bike path sealed against pollution? If some
> separation is sufficient, is that because the amount of pollution is
> diluted by distance and is below some limit?
>
> Shall we pursue this? What is the limit, and how should we determine
> it?
>

Being outside of the usual Diesel plumes suffices. Pollution is never an
on-off business, it's the quantity and the cumulative effect that matter.

> My contention is that riding fairly quiet streets (like today's ten
> miles to the credit union, plus my ride to the post office) puts one
> way below any reasonable limit of pollution exposure.
>
> And as evidence, I'll link to easily available articles showing that
bike commuting increases longevity. That's true even in places where
there are few bike facilities, and in places where those on the bike
facilities can smell the nearby diesel fumes. The Netherlands really
doesn't seal off its bike paths, you know.
>
> https://www.bicycling.com/training/fitness/ride-your-life
>

Does not work.


> http://time.com/4748377/commute-biking-walking-longevity/
>

No mention of bike path percentage.

>
http://mentalfloss.com/article/79211/biking-may-increase-life-expectancy-study-finds
>

No mention of bike path percentage. I lived there and they had lots of
segragated bike paths.

So far for your scientific accuracy.

> Those articles refer to three separate studies in three different
locations, all with the same general result - a result that disagrees
with your fearful imagination. They indicate that riding a bike in very
normal city environments
> is not detrimental to your health. Instead, it's highly beneficial.
>

No mention of bike path percentage.

>>>>> Sorry, Joerg. I chose instead to learn to ride on the roads,
>>>>> and I do so in perfect comfort and safety. You should try
>>>>> that. https://abea.bike/ Even you can learn to do it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know how to ride.
>>>
>>> And there's one of bicycling's biggest problems. Everyone over 12
>>> thinks "I know how to ride." They can't imagine there's anything
>>> they don't already know, so they absolutely refuse to consider
>>> learning anything. It's Dunning-Kruger in full force.
>>
>> Of course, you will never accept anyone who has even a slightly
>> different opinion than you do. Doesn't matter to me.
>
>
> I have accepted reasonable input and changed my views on many issues,
> including on issues discussed in this forum. When I'm presented with
> evidence, I evaluate it and compare it with other evidence.
> Occasionally I've found that I was wrong.
>

That would be the day! :-)

> What I don't accept are opinions whose source are just a paranoid's
> imagination.
>

Then keep riding on roads. It's your lungs, not mine.

[Joerg]

As a little kid I grew up in farm country. Scientifically correct
expressions such as manure are mostly used by upscale folks that don't
live there. Locals call it poop or shit. Which is what it is. Sometimes
dung but that can already be seen as a frou-frou expression :-)

> You remind me of the city folk that pay extra to buy the "organic"
> vegetables that are grown in a chemical free environment... so you can
> be sure that none of those nasty nitrogen rich chemicals are never,
> never used.
>

You have the wrong impression there. And no, I do not eat kale. I can't
stand kale.

> What you do to maintain the chemicals necessary to support plant life
> is spread "natural" fertilizers... i.e. manure on the farm land.
>

Yes, cow dung. BTDT.

> So (to be a bit vulgar) first you grow the veggies in shit and then
> you charge the city folks extra for doing so :-)

That's what they did where I grew up. They also sold the shit itself to
city dwellers to fertilize their flower beds. That must have been
noticed by investment bankers who, as Jay put it, sold "shit parfait" in
the shape of bundled mortgage "securities" except that those eventually
blew up.

[Joerg]

https://www.powder.com/latitudes/california-skiing-summer-long/
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-mammoth-winter-20170726-story.html


> ... And you do not have Hood River on the
> way home:
> https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g51909-i40971673-Hood_River_Oregon.html
>

You have to go to the coast for that here but it's only an hour or so. I
am not a surfer though.

> Not that I'm a wind surfer, but I have ridden to summer ski. My wife
> drove because I don't have a gnarly rack that will carry my skis --
> also made in Portland. https://shop.on3pskis.com/
>

That's a link to a black Friday sale. It's Tuesday already ...

> This reminds me why I live in a city -- which does suck in many
> respects, particularly with all the rain in Portland. But I like the
> fact that I can ride, drive, bus, walk, train to the shop where my
> skis were made and talk to the guys who made them. It's right up
> there with petting a horse on the nose.

Nah. No way. Right here in town on the singletrack I can also pet
alpacas, llamas and others. Sports equipment I can buy online.


> ... I can walk to the grocery

> store from my house; ride with my neighbor buddy, go to a restaurant
> that doesn't suck -- see a movie not on my television.
>

We've got that except the movie theater which would be in Placerville
and can be reached via singletrack. Last time I saw a movie there was
... heck, I don't even remember.

> A big city like NYC would be too much. I have to be close to a rural
> area, but I could not imagine living in Toadsuck, drinking bad coffee
> at the Toadsuck Cafe and waiting for my shift cables to come via UPS
> so I can go out for a ride through the god-forsaken, tree-less desert
> by myself.
>

We are simply different in that respect.

[Joerg]

> the chickens fed and the eggs gathered. ...


All very regular patterns, unlike much of the stuff going in cities.


> ... No two weeks vacation either,

> you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
> anything to eat next winter.
>

Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated by
staff and not only the owner of the farm.

> And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All you
> need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant and away you
> go. A government funded study. We get them over here. Every few years
> you see an article in the Bangkok newspaper about someone that got yet
> another grant to study "Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the
> fact that prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
> some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.

Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need studies. I
know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my wife who grew up
in a huge city sees it the same way. She would never move back there.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/28/2017 10:43 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-11-27 16:03, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> What you don't seem to understand
>> is that smelling a diesel is not equivalent to ingesting a
>> significant amount of pollution. They are identical only in your
>> imagination.
>>

>> One of your biggest logical problems is equating your imagination
>> with actual fact. You stumble over that time and again.
>>
>
> When you can smell it then it goes into your lungs unless you stop
> breathing. Which is hard to do uphill on a bicycle. It's simple.

No, it's simplistic. There is a big difference between "simple" and
"simplistic." Look it up.

>> What I don't accept are opinions whose source are just a paranoid's
>> imagination.
>
> Then keep riding on roads. It's your lungs, not mine.

I will keep riding on roads, as I have done for well over 60 years now.
And I hope everyone else also ignores your paranoid "Danger! Danger!" crap.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/28/2017 12:11 PM, Joerg wrote:
> I don't need studies.

Of course not. You've got your imagination. It's all you listen to.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2017-11-28 11:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/28/2017 10:43 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-11-27 16:03, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> What you don't seem to understand
>>> is that smelling a diesel is not equivalent to ingesting a
>>> significant amount of pollution. They are identical only in your
>>> imagination.
>>>
>>> One of your biggest logical problems is equating your imagination
>>> with actual fact. You stumble over that time and again.
>>>
>>
>> When you can smell it then it goes into your lungs unless you stop
>> breathing. Which is hard to do uphill on a bicycle. It's simple.
>
> No, it's simplistic. There is a big difference between "simple" and
> "simplistic." Look it up.
>

It is simple. Fumes (mostly Diesel soot) -> air -> cyclist -> lungs.

>>> What I don't accept are opinions whose source are just a paranoid's
>>> imagination.
>>
>> Then keep riding on roads. It's your lungs, not mine.
>
> I will keep riding on roads, as I have done for well over 60 years now.
> And I hope everyone else also ignores your paranoid "Danger! Danger!" crap.
>

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2014/feb/20/air-pollution-cyclists-bike-blog#img-2

I know, this doesn't truly exist in your world and will never go into
the lungs with the head stuck in the sand.

[jbeattie]

Odd arguments from someone who takes pride in burning real wood for his BBQ and who uses a wood stove. I bet you inhale more particulates than I do -- and I ride on the super-dangerous, smoke filled roads in my city hell. https://www.epa.gov/indoor-air-quality-iaq/wood-smoke

BTW, Portland air is better than Folsom air today. https://airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&zipcode=95630&submit=Go

No data for Cameron Park, which is probably way worse based on its over-all super-dangerousness.

And look at the forecast for Folsom . . . trending toward "moderate." "Health Message: Unusually sensitive people should consider reducing prolonged or heavy exertion." Guess those guys in bicycle paradise shouldn't be riding. For my zipcode: "good." "Health Message: None." I can ride without fear of respiratory disease!

-- Jay Beattie.


-- Jay Beattie.







-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

Nope. As I wrote before we have an EPA-approved very clea buring wood
stove. This is its yuonger brother, ours is even lower in particles:

http://www.quadrafire.com/Products/3100i-ACC-Wood-Insert.aspx

When it burns and is operated correctly you can't smell a thing and
there is no smoke. Unlike on our dog walk when the school bus goes by.


> ... I bet you inhale more particulates

> than I do -- and I ride on the super-dangerous, smoke filled roads in
> my city hell. https://www.epa.gov/indoor-air-quality-iaq/wood-smoke
>
> BTW, Portland air is better than Folsom air today.
> https://airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&zipcode=95630&submit=Go
>

No surprise. Flsom is in the valley and they get all the crud from
Sacramento and the Silicon Valley.

> No data for Cameron Park, which is probably way worse based on its
> over-all super-dangerousness.
>

Usually much cleaner than the valley unless there are forest fires.

This is Los Angeles but when I reach the last peak before I let the road
bike roll down towards the valley my view is similar, brown soup over
the city yet clear where I am:

https://www.ccair.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/LA-smog.jpg

One of the many reasons I do not want to live (or even work) in a city.
People in cities get so used to it they don't even notice. My
comeuppance was when I returned from a job in Aberdeen (Scotland) to
Duesseldorf (Germany). That is when I realized how unclean the air is
near the river Rhine where the large cities are.

> And look at the forecast for Folsom . . . trending toward "moderate."
> "Health Message: Unusually sensitive people should consider reducing
> prolonged or heavy exertion." Guess those guys in bicycle paradise
> shouldn't be riding. For my zipcode: "good." "Health Message:
> None." I can ride without fear of respiratory disease!
>

In city traffic with Diesel engines and all? Dream on.

[Frank Krygowski]

Wow, you're a deceptive character you are! Let's look at the entire
article, shall we?

See
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2014/feb/20/air-pollution-cyclists-bike-blog

Some quotes, for those who don't care to read the entire article:
"Cycling does remain many, many times better for your health than not
cycling, even factoring in exposure to pollution and the risk of
accident. What’s more surprising is that on two wheels you might even be
exposed to less of the smelly stuff than those using other forms of
transport."

Also: "Barrett stresses this was no more than an illustrative
demonstration study, but the graph of cumulative exposure is nonetheless
interesting, with the cycle courier encountering the SECOND-LEAST amount
of less black carbon overall, and being exposed to less than the
ambulance driver during work hours as a proportion of the total day."
[Emphasis mine]

And "... it does seem that cycling helps dissipate smog through movement
in the open: A lot of it is about ventilation, and the cycle courier is
in a big, open air room, whereas the ambulance driver is in an enclosed
box."

And "So, as a cyclist, what can you do to limit your exposure? One
simple idea is to take quieter back streets, where the concentration of
some pollutants can be considerably lower than on main roads." (Which is
precisely what I was saying, and precisely what I did on the eleven mile
utility ride I just completed.)

Finally, what you, Joerg, usually fail to understand: "As ever, all this
needs to be placed in context. And the context is clear: CYCLING IS, ON
BALANCE, VERY GOOD FOR YOU EVEN IN BIG CITIES. [Again, emphasis mine]

"A study last week in the British Medical Journal said London’s hire
bike scheme had brought a clear net benefit to health, as activity
outweighed the risks from pollution or crashes. An earlier study on
Barcelona’s equivalent bike hire scheme, published in the British
Medical Journal, estimated the system saved the city an average of more
than 12 lives a year overall."

Joerg, I know you'll never quit the "Danger! Danger!" crap. I'm just
trying to make sure nobody actually believes you.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

I never disputed that. What I am saying is that a cyclist on heavily
traveled roads breathes in lots of bad stuff.

> What’s more surprising is that on two wheels you might even be
> exposed to less of the smelly stuff than those using other forms of
> transport."
>

Highly doubtful. If you test against a 1960's VW Beetle, yes. Against a
new car with air filter, no.

> Also: "Barrett stresses this was no more than an illustrative
> demonstration study, but the graph of cumulative exposure is nonetheless
> interesting, with the cycle courier encountering the SECOND-LEAST amount
> of less black carbon overall, and being exposed to less than the
> ambulance driver during work hours as a proportion of the total day."
> [Emphasis mine]
>
> And "... it does seem that cycling helps dissipate smog through movement
> in the open: A lot of it is about ventilation, and the cycle courier is
> in a big, open air room, whereas the ambulance driver is in an enclosed
> box."
>
> And "So, as a cyclist, what can you do to limit your exposure? One
> simple idea is to take quieter back streets, where the concentration of
> some pollutants can be considerably lower than on main roads." (Which is
> precisely what I was saying, and precisely what I did on the eleven mile
> utility ride I just completed.)

What I was saying is way better: Bike paths and singletrack. That
usually gets you the lowest pollution.

>
> Finally, what you, Joerg, usually fail to understand: "As ever, all this
> needs to be placed in context. And the context is clear: CYCLING IS, ON
> BALANCE, VERY GOOD FOR YOU EVEN IN BIG CITIES. [Again, emphasis mine]
>

Think about you emphasized word "EVEN". Riding on separate bike paths
gets you out of the plume and this into much more healthy riding.

> "A study last week in the British Medical Journal said London’s hire
> bike scheme had brought a clear net benefit to health, as activity
> outweighed the risks from pollution or crashes. An earlier study on
> Barcelona’s equivalent bike hire scheme, published in the British
> Medical Journal, estimated the system saved the city an average of more
> than 12 lives a year overall."
>
> Joerg, I know you'll never quit the "Danger! Danger!" crap. I'm just
> trying to make sure nobody actually believes you.
>

I don't care whether you believe me. I make sure my rides use as much
non-road sections as possible. The #1 reason is the greatly improved
safety and the #2 reason is the lower pollution I am exposed to.

[John B.]

Ah, but when you get a "grant" someone else pays :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 07:50:41 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Strange comment. At least in my experience.

I never heard the term "shit spreader" used, they were called "manure
spreaders". No one referred to a "poop pile" out back of the barn, it
was a "manure pile". To take it a bit further I remember the term
"manure the field" used, even in polite conversation but I certainly
never heard "shit the field" used in any context.

I think you are making things up..... a term used in polite company to
indicate the person in question is telling lies.

>
>> You remind me of the city folk that pay extra to buy the "organic"
>> vegetables that are grown in a chemical free environment... so you can
>> be sure that none of those nasty nitrogen rich chemicals are never,
>> never used.
>>
>
>You have the wrong impression there. And no, I do not eat kale. I can't
>stand kale.
>

Kale? How did kale get into the conversation?

>
>> What you do to maintain the chemicals necessary to support plant life
>> is spread "natural" fertilizers... i.e. manure on the farm land.
>>
>
>Yes, cow dung. BTDT.

Nope. Any type of manure although I seem to remember that chicken
manure was used with some caution as it tended to "burn the field" as
the old folks described it and chicken manure does have the highest
amount of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium of common farm manures
so perhaps they did know what they were talking about.

>
>> So (to be a bit vulgar) first you grow the veggies in shit and then
>> you charge the city folks extra for doing so :-)
>
>
>That's what they did where I grew up. They also sold the shit itself to
>city dwellers to fertilize their flower beds. That must have been
>noticed by investment bankers who, as Jay put it, sold "shit parfait" in
>the shape of bundled mortgage "securities" except that those eventually
>blew up.

You equate spreading manure on flower plants with spreading it on
vegetables and then selling them for a higher price because they are
"organic"?

You know, that really says something about intelligence levels of the
city folks who buy the stuff doesn't it.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 09:11:02 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

You are making things up again. Being woken up at first rooster crow,
before the sun comes up, may be a regular pattern but not particularly
a pleasant one.

Or not being able to leave the farm for more then twelve hours because
you have to do the milking?

You don't even want to stay up to watch the "Late Show" on the tellie
as those damned roosters don't sleep late.

>
>> ... No two weeks vacation either,
>> you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
>> anything to eat next winter.
>>
>
>Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
>kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated by
>staff and not only the owner of the farm.

Sure. Combine harvesting has been going on even longer then I've been
around and they are expensive, which is why you seldom see one in the
normal farmer's inventory. But what you don't think about is that to
be economical combine harvesting can only be used in large fields that
are relatively flat have straight boundaries. It isn't effective in
fields that are irregular in shape or are not relatively flat.

>
>> And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All you
>> need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant and away you
>> go. A government funded study. We get them over here. Every few years
>> you see an article in the Bangkok newspaper about someone that got yet
>> another grant to study "Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the
>> fact that prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
>> some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.
>
>
>Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need studies. I
>know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my wife who grew up
>in a huge city sees it the same way. She would never move back there.

Well yes, the best of both worlds. Out of the built up areas and still
close enough that one can drive into town for shows and shopping. One
might call it the dilettante life style.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[dave]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 08:15:59 +0700, John B. wrote:

<epic snip>

>>> ... No two weeks vacation either,
>>> you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
>>> anything to eat next winter.
>>>
>>>
>>Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
>>kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated by
>>staff and not only the owner of the farm.
>
> Sure. Combine harvesting has been going on even longer then I've been
> around and they are expensive, which is why you seldom see one in the
> normal farmer's inventory. But what you don't think about is that to be
> economical combine harvesting can only be used in large fields that are
> relatively flat have straight boundaries. It isn't effective in fields
> that are irregular in shape or are not relatively flat.

Have you read " The Grapes of Wrath"?
--
davethedave

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 05:50:19 -0000 (UTC), dave <daved...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Certainly. It was a lot of years ago but I don't remember anything
about Combine Harvesters. I remember that the harvests had failed and
everyone left for California.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

On 2017-11-28 16:50, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 07:50:41 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-11-27 16:21, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:16:19 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2017-11-27 12:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

I heard that all the time, mostly in other languages. For example,
"Guelle Anhaenger" (ue is an umlaut in there) which loosely translates
to "shit trailer". That's how farmers called the "liquid manure" tank
trailers they carted to their fields, opened a valve and then pulled it
across behind the tractor. Leaving behind a serious stench.


> ... No one referred to a "poop pile" out back of the barn, it

> was a "manure pile". To take it a bit further I remember the term
> "manure the field" used, even in polite conversation but I certainly
> never heard "shit the field" used in any context.
>

IME they always called that fertilizing the field. I never heard anyone
say "manure the field". The steaming pile back at the farm was called
the "dung pile".

> I think you are making things up..... a term used in polite company to
> indicate the person in question is telling lies.
>

Think what you want. I told how it was, what I experienced.

>>
>>> You remind me of the city folk that pay extra to buy the "organic"
>>> vegetables that are grown in a chemical free environment... so you can
>>> be sure that none of those nasty nitrogen rich chemicals are never,
>>> never used.
>>>
>>
>> You have the wrong impression there. And no, I do not eat kale. I can't
>> stand kale.
>>
>
> Kale? How did kale get into the conversation?
>

You implied I was one of those eco-bio-whatever city slickers turned
urban cowboy. Those usually eat all this supposedly super-healty stuff
with the weird taste :-)

>>
>>> What you do to maintain the chemicals necessary to support plant life
>>> is spread "natural" fertilizers... i.e. manure on the farm land.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, cow dung. BTDT.
>
> Nope. Any type of manure although I seem to remember that chicken
> manure was used with some caution as it tended to "burn the field" as
> the old folks described it and chicken manure does have the highest
> amount of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium of common farm manures
> so perhaps they did know what they were talking about.
>

They successfully ran farms that way. Else their bank would have taken over.

>>
>>> So (to be a bit vulgar) first you grow the veggies in shit and then
>>> you charge the city folks extra for doing so :-)
>>
>>
>> That's what they did where I grew up. They also sold the shit itself to
>> city dwellers to fertilize their flower beds. That must have been
>> noticed by investment bankers who, as Jay put it, sold "shit parfait" in
>> the shape of bundled mortgage "securities" except that those eventually
>> blew up.
>
> You equate spreading manure on flower plants with spreading it on
> vegetables and then selling them for a higher price because they are
> "organic"?
>

City dwellers don't sell their plants. Why would they? It's some kind of
frou-frou phenomenon, dissing anything store-bought :-)

> You know, that really says something about intelligence levels of the
> city folks who buy the stuff doesn't it.

Maybe. Anyhow, I know that I live in the country when the supermarket
sells steer manure, has horse feed supplement in the main aisle and the
local radio station plays Stable Mix commercials.

[Joerg]

I lived at places like that and found it very pleasant. Much more so
than honking and police sirens at 5am like I experienced in Chicago, New
York, Berlin, London, Paris, Seoul and other places.

> Or not being able to leave the farm for more then twelve hours because
> you have to do the milking?
>

Ever heard of the term farm hands?

> You don't even want to stay up to watch the "Late Show" on the tellie
> as those damned roosters don't sleep late.
>

I never watch late shows. Or any shows for that matter.

>
>>
>>> ... No two weeks vacation either,
>>> you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
>>> anything to eat next winter.
>>>
>>
>> Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
>> kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated by
>> staff and not only the owner of the farm.
>
> Sure. Combine harvesting has been going on even longer then I've been
> around and they are expensive, which is why you seldom see one in the
> normal farmer's inventory. But what you don't think about is that to
> be economical combine harvesting can only be used in large fields that
> are relatively flat have straight boundaries. It isn't effective in
> fields that are irregular in shape or are not relatively flat.
>

The farmers where I lived were smarter. They formed what was often
called a co-op, bought one or two combines together and split the costs.

>>
>>> And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All you
>>> need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant and away you
>>> go. A government funded study. We get them over here. Every few years
>>> you see an article in the Bangkok newspaper about someone that got yet
>>> another grant to study "Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the
>>> fact that prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
>>> some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.
>>
>>
>> Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need studies. I
>> know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my wife who grew up
>> in a huge city sees it the same way. She would never move back there.
>
> Well yes, the best of both worlds. Out of the built up areas and still
> close enough that one can drive into town for shows and shopping. One
> might call it the dilettante life style.

The last time we went into Sacramento for shows or shopping was over 20
years ago when we moved to this area. Once was enough. Then about 10
years ago I drove visitors there because they wanted to see the railroad
museum. We have our own train museum right here, along the singletrack.

[jbeattie]

On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 5:16:03 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
<snip>

The problem with this conversation is that Joerg oscillates between the abstract "country" and the reality of Cameron Park -- which is a golf-course community with an "airpark" in the Sierra foothills up the road from Sacramento. It's a fine place to live if you like suburban developments. It does put you near open space, but its not the wild west, the Mid West or anything like the "country" that I envision -- e.g. farm land or the mostly vacant land in eastern Oregon. https://traveloregon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Motorcycling_Opening_final.jpg

I have no problem with bedroom communities or small towns near large towns. I'd live in one, and they can be quiet and relaxed -- unless they're filled with angry drunk drivers and mountain lions. For a sleepy bedroom community, Cameron Park seems more dangerous and stressful than NYC. And with planes buzzing around, it can't be that quiet close to town -- but who knows. http://www.city-data.com/forum/sacramento/222779-cameron-park-cameron-woods-subdivision-good.html

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2017-11-29 09:38, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 5:16:03 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> <snip>
>

[...]

>>>> And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All
>>>> you need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant
>>>> and away you go. A government funded study. We get them over
>>>> here. Every few years you see an article in the Bangkok
>>>> newspaper about someone that got yet another grant to study
>>>> "Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the fact that
>>>> prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
>>>> some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.
>>>
>>>
>>> Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need
>>> studies. I know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my
>>> wife who grew up in a huge city sees it the same way. She would
>>> never move back there.
>>
>> Well yes, the best of both worlds. Out of the built up areas and
>> still close enough that one can drive into town for shows and
>> shopping. One might call it the dilettante life style.
>
> The problem with this conversation is that Joerg oscillates between
> the abstract "country" and the reality of Cameron Park -- which is a
> golf-course community with an "airpark" in the Sierra foothills up
> the road from Sacramento. It's a fine place to live if you like
> suburban developments. It does put you near open space, but its not
> the wild west, the Mid West or anything like the "country" that I
> envision -- e.g. farm land or the mostly vacant land in eastern
> Oregon.
> https://traveloregon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Motorcycling_Opening_final.jpg
>

There isn't any "oscillation". What I am saying is that it takes very
few miles on roads or, preferred by me, on singletrack and I am in truly
pristine country. Totally rural, quiet, no traffic. To achieve this in a
major city can easily require an hour of riding on a bike.

> I have no problem with bedroom communities or small towns near large
> towns. I'd live in one, and they can be quiet and relaxed -- unless
> they're filled with angry drunk drivers and mountain lions. For a
> sleepy bedroom community, Cameron Park seems more dangerous and
> stressful than NYC. And with planes buzzing around, it can't be that
> quiet close to town -- but who knows.
> http://www.city-data.com/forum/sacramento/222779-cameron-park-cameron-woods-subdivision-good.html
>

It is correct that it is almost a bedroom community though we do have a
business park right in the village. Airplane noise, yes, but a Cessna
172 purring off into the distance is something different than the din of
traffic and other noise in a large city.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDWZkXjDYsc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECGCoo3Ogxg

[Frank Krygowski]

Again, false dichotomy. You pretend the only choices are the din of a
dense mega-city vs. a neighborhood so quiet you can hear the mountain
lions tiptoeing by.

My ride today was 47 miles. I was passed by maybe 100 cars the entire
time, most of those because I wandered around some old suburbs at the
end rather than riding directly home. There were several five mile
stretches where no cars passed me at all.

Yet if I'd chosen to ride northwest instead of southeast, I could have
ridden through two decent sized cities and their government buildings,
libraries, restaurants, entertainment venues, shopping malls and more.
And since I know all the roads and streets, including the quiet ones,
traffic would have been very easy for me to handle.

I thank God I'm not so timid as to be afraid to ride the roads.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 08:01:31 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

If you want to include non-English languages to interpreted to English
than you open the gate to some pretty strange terms. For example, the
correct term, in Thai, for cigarette ash is "cigarette shit". An
ashtray is a "thing for cigarette shit". Of course "kee" the term I am
translating to "shit" doesn't imply feces in Thai, it means something
more in line with the English term "waste".

If you want to go further abroad, the correct term to identify a
railway train is "fire wagon".

Logically, if you wish to argue English language terms then it is
probably logical to argue in English.

>
>> ... No one referred to a "poop pile" out back of the barn, it
>> was a "manure pile". To take it a bit further I remember the term
>> "manure the field" used, even in polite conversation but I certainly
>> never heard "shit the field" used in any context.
>>
>
>IME they always called that fertilizing the field. I never heard anyone
>say "manure the field". The steaming pile back at the farm was called
>the "dung pile".
>
>
>> I think you are making things up..... a term used in polite company to
>> indicate the person in question is telling lies.
>>
>
>Think what you want. I told how it was, what I experienced.
>
>>>
>>>> You remind me of the city folk that pay extra to buy the "organic"
>>>> vegetables that are grown in a chemical free environment... so you can
>>>> be sure that none of those nasty nitrogen rich chemicals are never,
>>>> never used.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You have the wrong impression there. And no, I do not eat kale. I can't
>>> stand kale.
>>>
>>
>> Kale? How did kale get into the conversation?
>>
>
>You implied I was one of those eco-bio-whatever city slickers turned
>urban cowboy. Those usually eat all this supposedly super-healty stuff
>with the weird taste :-)

I can only assume that you simply don't know what you are talking
about. I can't remember ever seeing kale mentioned as a "super healthy
stuff", although in the middle ages, it was probably one of the most
common green vegetables in Europe.

>
>>>
>>>> What you do to maintain the chemicals necessary to support plant life
>>>> is spread "natural" fertilizers... i.e. manure on the farm land.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, cow dung. BTDT.
>>
>> Nope. Any type of manure although I seem to remember that chicken
>> manure was used with some caution as it tended to "burn the field" as
>> the old folks described it and chicken manure does have the highest
>> amount of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium of common farm manures
>> so perhaps they did know what they were talking about.
>>
>
>They successfully ran farms that way. Else their bank would have taken over.

Subsistence farming, i.e., a small family owned farm that supported
the family is, and probably has been for a generation or more, pretty
much a myth. Even when I was growing up in New England they were rare
as one simply couldn't make a living doing everything yourself.

>>>
>>>> So (to be a bit vulgar) first you grow the veggies in shit and then
>>>> you charge the city folks extra for doing so :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> That's what they did where I grew up. They also sold the shit itself to
>>> city dwellers to fertilize their flower beds. That must have been
>>> noticed by investment bankers who, as Jay put it, sold "shit parfait" in
>>> the shape of bundled mortgage "securities" except that those eventually
>>> blew up.
>>
>> You equate spreading manure on flower plants with spreading it on
>> vegetables and then selling them for a higher price because they are
>> "organic"?
>>
>
>City dwellers don't sell their plants. Why would they? It's some kind of
>frou-frou phenomenon, dissing anything store-bought :-)
>
>
>> You know, that really says something about intelligence levels of the
>> city folks who buy the stuff doesn't it.
>
>
>Maybe. Anyhow, I know that I live in the country when the supermarket
>sells steer manure, has horse feed supplement in the main aisle and the
>local radio station plays Stable Mix commercials.

You wrote the other day describing a palatial mansion "custom built" I
believe was your term, and you frequently talk about your wife
complaining about mud in the garage and now you are trying to imply
that you live in an environment with horses?

I'd have to point out that the average horse produces about 37 pounds
of feces and 2.4 gallons of urine daily, which totals about 50 pounds
of raw waste per day in feces and urine combined.

If your wife complains about the mud from one small mountain bike I
really doubt that you are stabling any horses.

The radio programs advertising animal feed is obviously not germane
when discussing your living accommodations.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 08:10:09 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Oh, you have hired servants?

>
>> You don't even want to stay up to watch the "Late Show" on the tellie
>> as those damned roosters don't sleep late.
>>
>
>I never watch late shows. Or any shows for that matter.
>
>>
>>>
>>>> ... No two weeks vacation either,
>>>> you got to get the plowing done and the garden in or there won't be
>>>> anything to eat next winter.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hint: Agricultural things have progressed quite well since you were a
>>> kid. Nowadays they have GPS controlled combines which can be operated by
>>> staff and not only the owner of the farm.
>>
>> Sure. Combine harvesting has been going on even longer then I've been
>> around and they are expensive, which is why you seldom see one in the
>> normal farmer's inventory. But what you don't think about is that to
>> be economical combine harvesting can only be used in large fields that
>> are relatively flat have straight boundaries. It isn't effective in
>> fields that are irregular in shape or are not relatively flat.
>>
>
>The farmers where I lived were smarter. They formed what was often
>called a co-op, bought one or two combines together and split the costs.
>

Sure, there are companies that do nothing but harvest grain crops but
still, use of a combine harvester pretty is much restricted to large
flat fields straight sides as a Combine just doesn't maneuver around
sharp corners very well.

>>>
>>>> And sure studies are made of the pressures of city life... All you
>>>> need to do is write up a good proposal and get the grant and away you
>>>> go. A government funded study. We get them over here. Every few years
>>>> you see an article in the Bangkok newspaper about someone that got yet
>>>> another grant to study "Prostitution in Thailand". So ignoring the
>>>> fact that prostitution have been studied innumerable times in the past
>>>> some bloke gets a grant to study them once again.
>>>
>>>
>>> Having lived in the country and in the city, I don't need studies. I
>>> know and made my choices accordingly. Interestingly my wife who grew up
>>> in a huge city sees it the same way. She would never move back there.
>>
>> Well yes, the best of both worlds. Out of the built up areas and still
>> close enough that one can drive into town for shows and shopping. One
>> might call it the dilettante life style.
>
>
>The last time we went into Sacramento for shows or shopping was over 20
>years ago when we moved to this area. Once was enough. Then about 10
>years ago I drove visitors there because they wanted to see the railroad
>museum. We have our own train museum right here, along the singletrack.

And for all this non-driving you require his and her's SUV's?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Ohooo... but you must be some sort of daredevil. Why I've even heard
that you often ride a bicycle without even the most basic safety
feature, the bicycle helmet.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

where did the trees go ? Indians tell me the place was covered with mature juniper n fat deer

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/29/2017 8:01 PM, John B. wrote:
>
>
> I'd have to point out that the average horse produces about 37 pounds
> of feces and 2.4 gallons of urine daily, which totals about 50 pounds
> of raw waste per day in feces and urine combined.

About that:

A few years ago, my wife and I were on a driving trip heading west and
decided to head north through Michigan and camp at Michigan's Upper
Peninsula.

Along the way, we spontaneously decided to visit Mackinac Island, a
small car-free resort island in Lake Huron. People get around the island
by foot, by bike or by horse-drawn carriage. It sounded charming, and
we'd never been there.

We called ahead to reserve a hotel room, then loaded our bikes onto the
ferry and disembarked at the island. Walking from the dock to the main
street, we passed through a sort of long roofed arcade, and I got
worried: Do they have lots of homeless bums here, who pee anywhere they
want to? The smell of urine was _very_ strong!

Once we got to the charming main street, I stopped worrying about bums.
The problem was horses. The gutters were literally running with horse piss.

And it occurred to me: This is probably how all cities smelled before
the motor car arrived to remove the horse pollution.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

There is that rumor! ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Well, I'm pretty sure the fat deer all migrated to the suburbs around here.

This afternoon, my wife said "Deer in the back yard again." I said
"Looks delicious. Should I get the gun?"

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Prior to the advent of motor vehicles it was estimated that there were
100,000 to 200,000 horses employed in New York City. At an average of,
say 30 lbs of feces and perhaps 2 gallons of urine we are talking
about, say 150,000 X 2 gallons or 300,000 gallons of urine and 2,250
tons of manure a day.

Of course, there was a whole industry engaged in keeping New York
clean but given that a large wagon, similar to the famous "Conestoga
wagon" could carry about 6 tons and was pulled by a 4 to 6 horse
team... well, 2250/6 X 6 X 30 lbs, etc.

Strange as it may seem today the advent of the internal combustion
engine was hailed as an "environmental savior."
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 22:26:53 -0500, Frank Krygowski

One assumes that your new signature block will read "Fearless Frank"

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:01:55 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The radio programs advertising animal feed is obviously not germane
> when discussing your living accommodations.

Not to mention that the vast majority of the horses in the United
States are pets -- horse feed in the supermarket is a sure sign that
you are *not* in farming country.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net

[dave]

The harvests were down. But the main focus was the industrialisation of
farming and people being run off the land by banks buying up small farms.
These were then joined together into easily tractorable long straight
lines.
--
davethedave

[John B.]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 23:44:55 -0400, Joy Beeson
<jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:01:55 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> The radio programs advertising animal feed is obviously not germane
>> when discussing your living accommodations.
>
>Not to mention that the vast majority of the horses in the United
>States are pets -- horse feed in the supermarket is a sure sign that
>you are *not* in farming country.

Back when we had horses I never saw horse feed in a sack small enough
that you could carry it out of the supermarket :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 06:19:20 -0000 (UTC), dave <daved...@gmail.com>

Not to get into a big argument but I seem to remember that the main
point in the first part of the book was the fact that the rains had
failed and turned that part of the country into a "dust bowl" and that
there was no work, no food, no nothing. And yes, people lost their
land when they didn't pay their bills, but that was hardly a practice
restricted to Oklahoma. But worse, as the farmers defaulted on their
loans banks failed at a high rate and there was simply no credit
available at all.

But yes, there were underlying reasons. The common use of tractors
allowed plowing much wider areas than a man and a horse could plow,
tractors were far more powerful and allowed deep plowing which
destroyed the deep root structures of the prairie grasses but the
basic reason was a series of droughts during most of the 1930's. It
created what was quite literally a dust bowl with 75% of the top soil
blown away. Over an area of 100,000,000 acres.

It also triggered (I believe) the largest immigration in U.S. history
with something like approximately 3.5 million people moved out of the
area in the period from approximately 1930 - 1940.


--
Cheers,

John B.

[dave]

Sounds about right. I'll shut up now. ;)

--
davethedave

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Frank what is your problem with Joerg's preference where to live or to ride bike?

Lou

[AMuzi]

Exactly right.
In winter the streets were crowned with frozen waste and in
summer the stench and flies plus dead horses here and there.

http://bytesdaily.blogspot.com/2011/07/great-horse-manure-crisis-of-1894.html

All of which is trouble enough but even worse, after Dunlop,
pneumatic bicycle were most commonly felled by horseshoe nails.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

It's a reaction to Joerg's attitude that anyone else's choice is wrong.

Regarding where to ride bikes: he's quite explicit in his claims that
riding on roads is usually crazy dangerous and hazardous to one's
health. That is A) nuts, B) easily disproven by available data, and C)
it's anti-cycling.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

Cal country road riding is dangerous

[Joerg]

Well, pretty much all Texans I know call horse manure horse shit or
horse poop. Or is Texas outside the English language region in your
eyes? To some folks it is ...

[...]

>>>>
>>>>> What you do to maintain the chemicals necessary to support plant life
>>>>> is spread "natural" fertilizers... i.e. manure on the farm land.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, cow dung. BTDT.
>>>
>>> Nope. Any type of manure although I seem to remember that chicken
>>> manure was used with some caution as it tended to "burn the field" as
>>> the old folks described it and chicken manure does have the highest
>>> amount of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium of common farm manures
>>> so perhaps they did know what they were talking about.
>>>
>>
>> They successfully ran farms that way. Else their bank would have taken over.
>
> Subsistence farming, i.e., a small family owned farm that supported
> the family is, and probably has been for a generation or more, pretty
> much a myth. Even when I was growing up in New England they were rare
> as one simply couldn't make a living doing everything yourself.
>

Not at all. Many large farms out here (and where I grew up) are already
squeezed to the hilt with taxes, fees, costly labor rules and so on.
It's no subsistence, it's been their livelihood since generations.

>
>>>>
>>>>> So (to be a bit vulgar) first you grow the veggies in shit and then
>>>>> you charge the city folks extra for doing so :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's what they did where I grew up. They also sold the shit itself to
>>>> city dwellers to fertilize their flower beds. That must have been
>>>> noticed by investment bankers who, as Jay put it, sold "shit parfait" in
>>>> the shape of bundled mortgage "securities" except that those eventually
>>>> blew up.
>>>
>>> You equate spreading manure on flower plants with spreading it on
>>> vegetables and then selling them for a higher price because they are
>>> "organic"?
>>>
>>
>> City dwellers don't sell their plants. Why would they? It's some kind of
>> frou-frou phenomenon, dissing anything store-bought :-)
>>
>>
>>> You know, that really says something about intelligence levels of the
>>> city folks who buy the stuff doesn't it.
>>
>>
>> Maybe. Anyhow, I know that I live in the country when the supermarket
>> sells steer manure, has horse feed supplement in the main aisle and the
>> local radio station plays Stable Mix commercials.
>
> You wrote the other day describing a palatial mansion "custom built" I
> believe was your term, and you frequently talk about your wife
> complaining about mud in the garage and now you are trying to imply
> that you live in an environment with horses?
>

Yes, it takes minutes on my bike to get to where lots of horses are. I
never said owned a mansion because we don't.

> I'd have to point out that the average horse produces about 37 pounds
> of feces and 2.4 gallons of urine daily, which totals about 50 pounds
> of raw waste per day in feces and urine combined.
>

My MTB tires know that and so do the backs of my riding T-shirts :-)

> If your wife complains about the mud from one small mountain bike I
> really doubt that you are stabling any horses.
>

We aren't, other are.

> The radio programs advertising animal feed is obviously not germane
> when discussing your living accommodations.

They do not run such ads if there isn't a lucrative local market.

[Joerg]

That's how it was in the village where I grew up except the smell was
from "cow piss". The local ranchers regularly drove herds through the
village. There was only that one street so no other options. It never
bothered me. Diesel exhaust blasting into my face while riding on roads
does though, big time.

[Joerg]

On 2017-11-29 22:22, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 23:44:55 -0400, Joy Beeson
> <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:01:55 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The radio programs advertising animal feed is obviously not germane
>>> when discussing your living accommodations.
>>
>> Not to mention that the vast majority of the horses in the United
>> States are pets -- horse feed in the supermarket is a sure sign that
>> you are *not* in farming country.
>

Many horses here are pets but there are also people working in
agriculture or private forest management who use them to get around.
Especially when the trip contains sections where ATVs or dirt bikes are
not allowed. Then there are the hardcore cowboys who ride their horse to
Safeway and back, boots, hat and all. Often I have to dodge horse poop
on the shoulder or in the bike lane along county roads. That sure isn't
from any pet-riding.

> Back when we had horses I never saw horse feed in a sack small enough
> that you could carry it out of the supermarket :-)

Read more precisely. I talked about feed supplement, not feed. But even
for the supplement you better show up with a pickup truck.