Difference HG50 and HG62 MTB cassettes?

[Joerg]

Folks,

The cassette on my MTB is shot, new chain jumps. It's a HG-62 11-36T but
hard to find, most HG-62 are only 11-34T. HG-50 is more available in
11-36T and cheaper.

What's the difference between HG-50 and HG-62, other than one being used
on Alivio systems and the other one on bikes with Deore? I would not
care about weight or whether it shifts a millisecond faster. I do care
about how long it lasts and about cost. The current cassette didn't even
last 4k miles :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[avag...@gmail.com]

J does not replace chain cassette together ?

HG50 is good esp in 8 spds

[Joerg]

On 2016-04-16 17:20, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> J does not replace chain cassette together ?
>

Throw the cassette away every time a chain is worn at 1200mi or so? I
wasn't born into the Rockefeller family.

> HG50 is good esp in 8 spds
>

Yeah, but this is 10-speed. Need to know whether those last as long a
HG-62. Or essentially, what is the difference? IF the HG-62 is better
quality steel and last longer it might make sense to spend more. But
only if more miles per Dollar.

[AMuzi]

On 4/16/2016 6:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Folks,
>
> The cassette on my MTB is shot, new chain jumps. It's a
> HG-62 11-36T but hard to find, most HG-62 are only 11-34T.
> HG-50 is more available in 11-36T and cheaper.
>
> What's the difference between HG-50 and HG-62, other than
> one being used on Alivio systems and the other one on bikes
> with Deore? I would not care about weight or whether it
> shifts a millisecond faster. I do care about how long it
> lasts and about cost. The current cassette didn't even last
> 4k miles :-(
>

They are fungible for your purposes and the market is alive
with less expensive compatible cassettes by SRAM, SunRace et al.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

On 2016-04-17 08:45, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/16/2016 6:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> The cassette on my MTB is shot, new chain jumps. It's a
>> HG-62 11-36T but hard to find, most HG-62 are only 11-34T.
>> HG-50 is more available in 11-36T and cheaper.
>>
>> What's the difference between HG-50 and HG-62, other than
>> one being used on Alivio systems and the other one on bikes
>> with Deore? I would not care about weight or whether it
>> shifts a millisecond faster. I do care about how long it
>> lasts and about cost. The current cassette didn't even last
>> 4k miles :-(
>>
>
> They are fungible for your purposes and the market is alive with less
> expensive compatible cassettes by SRAM, SunRace et al.
>

Thanks! That's the word I was hoping to hear :-)

[Joerg]

These reviews look a bit discomforting since I am a heavier muscular rider:

http://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-HG-50-10-Speed-Cassette

[Joerg]

On 2016-04-16 16:55, Joerg wrote:
> Folks,
>
> The cassette on my MTB is shot, new chain jumps. It's a HG-62 11-36T but
> hard to find, most HG-62 are only 11-34T. HG-50 is more available in
> 11-36T and cheaper.
>
> What's the difference between HG-50 and HG-62, other than one being used
> on Alivio systems and the other one on bikes with Deore? I would not
> care about weight or whether it shifts a millisecond faster. I do care
> about how long it lasts and about cost. The current cassette didn't even
> last 4k miles :-(
>

Add-on question: Can I also use a HG81 cassette instead? Some folks in
reviews said that could gouge the freehub body. No idea why because
AFAICT the HG81 has the three larges cogs on a carrier.

Problem is, the HC62 is not much in stock in 11-36T at reasonable
prices. Except for Merlin Cycles in the UK which would be ok but takes
10 days to get here (US).

I am a bit skeptical about the HG50 after (just before ordering ..)
seeing several reviews where people had bent cogs just by pedaling.

[avag...@gmail.com]

A 10 SPEED ! FOR A POOR MUSCULAR RIDER WHO CANNAH AFFORD A CASSETTE ?

buy 2 chains n an electric motor


http://goo.gl/DeCd4h

[Joerg]

On 2016-04-16 16:55, Joerg wrote:

> Folks,
>
> The cassette on my MTB is shot, new chain jumps. It's a HG-62 11-36T but
> hard to find, most HG-62 are only 11-34T. HG-50 is more available in
> 11-36T and cheaper.
>
> What's the difference between HG-50 and HG-62, other than one being used
> on Alivio systems and the other one on bikes with Deore? I would not
> care about weight or whether it shifts a millisecond faster. I do care
> about how long it lasts and about cost. The current cassette didn't even
> last 4k miles :-(
>

So I found a HG81 11-36T at Jenson for $32. They also had the very beefy
29" CST Rock Hawk tire which I am going to try on the trails when the
current one is bald. Will let you guys know how this fares.

[John B.]

On Sun, 17 Apr 2016 07:10:28 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2016-04-16 17:20, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>> J does not replace chain cassette together ?
>>
>
>Throw the cassette away every time a chain is worn at 1200mi or so? I
>wasn't born into the Rockefeller family.
>
>
>> HG50 is good esp in 8 spds
>>
>
>Yeah, but this is 10-speed. Need to know whether those last as long a
>HG-62. Or essentially, what is the difference? IF the HG-62 is better
>quality steel and last longer it might make sense to spend more. But
>only if more miles per Dollar.

I can't say for the actual alloy, or any heat treatment, used, to make
the individual cogs but the thickness of the 9 speed and 10 speed
cassette cogs seems to be essentially the same. The difference seems
to be only the width of the spacers between the actual cogs
themselves.

I would expect no difference in cog wear between a 9 and 10 speed
cassette.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

the only foundations to your dialogue are 8 speed Deore

[avag...@gmail.com]

Try Weight Weenies....Deore vs road goes double

[AMuzi]

The chain spacer turns on the sprocket tooth so wear between
sprocket and chain is minimal. The wear is almost all within
the chain, that wear being faster with modern interrupted
sideplate chain than with older full roller chain. Once the
rivets are farther apart, the fit to the sprocket teeth is
inexact and so the leading edge of the tooth is shaved away:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/WORN.JPG

Jobst elucidated that point elegantly and repeatedly here.

So in fact the smaller wearing surfaces inside a 10 chain do
indeed wear faster than a wider chain, sprocket thickness
notwithstanding.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/WORN.JPG

[sms]

On 4/16/2016 4:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Folks,
>
> The cassette on my MTB is shot, new chain jumps. It's a HG-62 11-36T but
> hard to find, most HG-62 are only 11-34T. HG-50 is more available in
> 11-36T and cheaper.
>
> What's the difference between HG-50 and HG-62, other than one being used
> on Alivio systems and the other one on bikes with Deore? I would not
> care about weight or whether it shifts a millisecond faster. I do care
> about how long it lasts and about cost. The current cassette didn't even
> last 4k miles :-(

The Sea Otter Classic had a booth showing a very nice 11 speed cassette
that you will probably want to switch to.

http://www.hopetech.com/product/11spd-cassette/

You also have to buy one of their hubs and build a new wheel, and go to
an 11 speed wide range derailleur and shifters.

You should be able to do the upgrade for a tad under $1000.

[avag...@gmail.com]

!! engineering think.

the checking accounts leading edge is shaved away

smaller clearance accumulate more n flush less dirt

smaller surfaces bearing more and greater directional changes wear faster

these forces are offset by the chains lower weight.

[avag...@gmail.com]

I do not know anyone there.

[Joerg]

On 2016-04-18 05:12, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/17/2016 6:42 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2016 07:10:28 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2016-04-16 17:20, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> J does not replace chain cassette together ?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Throw the cassette away every time a chain is worn at 1200mi or so? I
>>> wasn't born into the Rockefeller family.
>>>
>>>
>>>> HG50 is good esp in 8 spds
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, but this is 10-speed. Need to know whether those last as long a
>>> HG-62. Or essentially, what is the difference? IF the HG-62 is better
>>> quality steel and last longer it might make sense to spend more. But
>>> only if more miles per Dollar.
>>
>> I can't say for the actual alloy, or any heat treatment, used, to make
>> the individual cogs but the thickness of the 9 speed and 10 speed
>> cassette cogs seems to be essentially the same. The difference seems
>> to be only the width of the spacers between the actual cogs
>> themselves.
>>
>> I would expect no difference in cog wear between a 9 and 10 speed
>> cassette.
>>

Just before ordering I found reviews that hinted at differences in the
rigidity of the contruction in the larger cogs. Probably the stability
of the underlying spider. People had managed to bend the cogs when
hammering up an incline. So I finally decided on the only thing I could
get in 11-36T without importing from overseas, a HG81 cassette. That has
a sturdy common spider carrier for the three largest cogs.

>
> The chain spacer turns on the sprocket tooth so wear between sprocket
> and chain is minimal. The wear is almost all within the chain, that wear
> being faster with modern interrupted sideplate chain than with older
> full roller chain. Once the rivets are farther apart, the fit to the
> sprocket teeth is inexact and so the leading edge of the tooth is shaved
> away:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/WORN.JPG
>
> Jobst elucidated that point elegantly and repeatedly here.
>
> So in fact the smaller wearing surfaces inside a 10 chain do indeed wear
> faster than a wider chain, sprocket thickness notwithstanding.
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/WORN.JPG
>

When I took out the last chain I was very surprised to find that it had
ground away almost half the metal in the links, where the adjoining link
rotates. The cassette is hopelessly through for the middle cogs, it's
shot, and they don't sell individual cogs to replace those like in the
olden days.

Let's see if an HG81 lasts longer on the trails. I am also going to try
to make a spoke protector screwed to the inner spider to avoid that
dread chain jam when the thing flies off again. Either from hard plastic
or aluminum.

[Joerg]

Yeah, right :-)

40T or 44T would be tempting though. But then I'd probably tear spokes
out of the rim.

[avag...@gmail.com]

10 is not your area....8 Deore is your area.

https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1691&bih=850&q=bicycle+spoke+and+chain+guards&oq=bicycle+spoke+and+chain+guards&gs_l=img.12...1288.18630.0.20665.35.15.2.18.4.0.339.2037.0j12j1j1.14.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..1.19.1991.pn6m9JoQzeo

buy one for the sprockets ....get a Deda from Universal for the CR's.

the situation you continuously carp abt should evolve a mechanism developed for the conditions. That's what we do.

But fersure you are not using dirt guards or a chain clean n lube system.

Chain was cleaned every morning when I commuted.

Reads like your wudbe mechanism could use an in ride wax lube supplier. With a clean chain every ride. 2 chains, one in bath one on ride.

The entire speil reads like a forest trees problem or lack of ID for a critical path.

[Joerg]

On 2016-04-16 16:55, Joerg wrote:

> Folks,
>
> The cassette on my MTB is shot, new chain jumps. It's a HG-62 11-36T but
> hard to find, most HG-62 are only 11-34T. HG-50 is more available in
> 11-36T and cheaper.
>
> What's the difference between HG-50 and HG-62, other than one being used
> on Alivio systems and the other one on bikes with Deore? I would not
> care about weight or whether it shifts a millisecond faster. I do care
> about how long it lasts and about cost. The current cassette didn't even
> last 4k miles :-(
>

After some rides with a new HG-81 cassette and a new KMC X.93-10 it
seems that the shifting is not quite as fast as with HG-62. Also
noisier. But this I won't fuss about. Weeds do not shred away through
the inside quickly enough, resulting in the occasional chain skip.
Probably because of the big aluminum spider. Oh well, a brief stop and a
Swiss army knife fixes that.

HG-62 is tough to buy in 36T, only a shop in England had one in stock in
mid-April. 34T on a 29" MTB I didn't want to do, getting older ...

[avag...@gmail.com]

use some Valvo trans lube break the rig in...

http://www.jensonusa.com/Cassettes-Cogs?Gear-Range=11%2d36&by=Category

somebody break your leg ? 14-32 .....

[Joerg]

It's broken in alright by now.


> http://www.jensonusa.com/Cassettes-Cogs?Gear-Range=11%2d36&by=Category
>

Jenson is where I bought the cassette.

> somebody break your leg ? 14-32 .....
>

32T on a 29" MTB in this area is no fun at all. I ride with a low
cadence where some riders call me Mr.Diesel-legs but there were hills on
yesterday's ride I could not have gone up without 36T.

[John B.]

On Thu, 05 May 2016 13:16:20 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Can't you just walk into a bicycle shop and buy a 11-36 cassette? I'm
running a 12-36 (home made smallest cog) and that is what I did.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/5/2016 10:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>
>
> Can't you just walk into a bicycle shop and buy a 11-36 cassette? I'm
> running a 12-36 (home made smallest cog) and that is what I did.

I'm curious about the details of the home made 12 tooth cog.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

what speed does that low cadence yield ?

[Sir Ridesalot]

He could wait a bit and buy SRAM's new Eagle set with a 12 cogs cassette with cogs from 10 teeth to FIFTY teeth!

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/03/news/sram-eagle-12-speed-pie-plate-sized-gearing-for-mtb_399614

"SRAM's new XX1 Eagle drivetrain goes big with a 10-50, 12-speed rear cassette and redesigned chain, rear derailleur, crank, and chainring."

Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/03/news/sram-eagle-12-speed-pie-plate-sized-gearing-for-mtb_399614#gWbB2KLKyBiiETgL.99

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

were you burning trash again ?

"SRAM's new XX1 Eagle drivetrain goes big with a 10-50, 12-speed rear cassette and redesigned chain, rear derailleur, crank, and chainring."

https://goo.gl/kwqxJD

50 teeth...this is connected to fat tireds right ?

5 years ago the barb was yo kncklhead get off n walk

[John B.]

I save old things :-)

It was the second cog from a 11 - something 9 speed cassette. The
first (11 tooth) and second (12 tooth) cogs had a shoulder that
replaced the spacer used between the other cogs and they both have a
slight recess on the outside. I built up a "new" cassette out of loose
cogs and spacers and used the 12 tooth cog as the last one in the
stack. Screwed down the nut and it has been running without problems
for a year or more using 9 speed STI shifters.

But of course, Shimano does make 12 -? cassettes so if one were
starting from scratch it would be the easiest way to go.

I've been "building" cassettes for some time now. Mainly to get a
range of gear rations for some specific purpose. In Bangkok, for
example, I find that a 60 inch gear for the center cog in a 9 speed
cassette with a one tooth difference on the next higher and next lower
sprockets to be ideal for me as for the majority of my rides, in
Bangkok, the 60" gear is perfect and with one tooth higher and lower
for windy days I rarely shift gears.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

But if you go for a SRAM cassette do you have to use a SRAM derailer
and shifter?

On a 26" wheel, depending on tire size, with a 44 tooth chain ring
that could be a 116" to 23" range and with 11 gears. Which is a wider
range than I get with a triple chain ring :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

I think he meant swapping a 12t from a different cassette
rather than cutting one tooth off a 13t sprocket!

[Joerg]

You can but they all did not have the HG-62 with 36T. For the newer
cassettes they wanted way more money than Jenson, so ...

[Joerg]

The usual speeds, whatever my body can deliver and whatever hills are
there. On level stretches I can keep it at 20mph for a while if I want to.

[jbeattie]

Awesome! I want to get the 30t chain ring with a 50t cassette and ride that on the flats just to freak people out. If I spin it, I could keep up with the walkers on the MUP -- at least the old ones.

But again, the Rohloff cabal claim an even larger gear range and that, in the long run, their product is cheaper! http://www.spokewrench.com/spokewrench/tech/ At least they do acknowledge that the Speedhub is heavier.

I say come up with a double compact implementation of the Eagle and totally blow the Speedhub out of the water. 24 gears with a low of say 10" and a high of 112". Ka-cha! Checkmate Rohloff! I'm king of the world!

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

My fixie has a nice gear. The right one for me.

[avag...@gmail.com]

UH ? 20 MPH on a 36T cog ?

http://www.breckenridge.com/activities/mountain-biking.aspx?page=viewall

make a cog ?

Jenson and Universal are very reasonable abt MTB parts

a necessity as most customers ar both retarded and poverty stricken

[avag...@gmail.com]

what the Kestrel ?

[Joerg]

Of course not on the 36T. But there are times when I crawl up hills at
less than 1mph on the 36T, rear wheel spewing rocks and stuff, because
the trail is too narrow to walk the bike up there.


> http://www.breckenridge.com/activities/mountain-biking.aspx?page=viewall
>

<yawn>

That looks like a manicured city slicker trail. Ours look more like
this, and even that's a fairly manicured one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y38JzV-ueXI

Of course that's nothing compared to Moab, UT. Anybody know a place like
that where the winters are not so cold? My wife does not like cold.


> make a cog ?
>

Don't have machines to do that efficiently, I rather buy.

> Jenson and Universal are very reasonable abt MTB parts
>
> a necessity as most customers ar both retarded and poverty stricken
>

What are you smoking?

[Sir Ridesalot]

Well as long as you're going to play the game of OneUpmanship, there's lots of MTB riders who think that your trails are groomed too. How long would YOU last on these trails?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfiwJ9z3gjE

Cheers

[Joerg]

Probably until 1:28min :-)

However, I am not a downhiller but XC rider. While I'd love to move to
Moab there are some trails out there I would not ride. Or my wife won't
let me. Like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4QHMqqobT0

All that's between a rider and death could be one innocent front tire
blow-out.

[Roger Merriman]

which triple?

My old MTB with 22/32/44 and 11-34 and 2.1 tyres give 17-104 inch range.

the eagle 10-50 cassette with 32t gives 17in-83in
40t gives 21-104inch range

it's very slightly more range than a MTB double though it costs a lot
more!

Roger Merriman

[jbeattie]

Salt Lake has tons of in-town trails along the Wasatch front. The Bonneville Shoreline Trail goes on for a zillion miles through multiple towns. Its kind of mundane going through Salt Lake, but it's super convenient. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_Qn5QpXCBs You can live in the city, jump on your mountain bike after work, ride past my son's apartment in the Avenues and hit the trail. Or you can stay on your road bike and do thousands of feet of climbing just riding around. I go to SLC and wonder why more people don't flock there for the out-of-doors -- until I go during the stinking hot summer or smog-fog during the winter, but then again, when the smog-fog hits, I can go skiing in the clean air up at Alta. And BTW, Moab and Slick Rock, etc., have all sorts of beginner trails, at least according to some friends. The terrain is not all daring-do.

-- Jay Beattie.

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://www.bikepacking.net/tripreports/4-days-in-the-sierra-nevada/



https://www.google.com/#q=bikepacking+POTTER+COUNTY

The Sierra has a superior trail system ceptin' you could run into Manson et al...earth trials available scenery climate

Potter's and the Northern Tier trails are woods roads in very good Wyerhauser condition.

The Sierra is drier but not normally THAT DRY or dusty while PA is a upland temperate rain forest and normally somewhat slippery ...esp when it rains
yukyukyuk

New Mexico: https://www.google.com/#q=BIKE+PACKING+new+mexico

Dry but upland is settled earth pro same for N.Arizona.

Once below ? inches of rain ......the dirt get oppressive. I have photos.

Prob ride backside of Sierra Vista and east of SV ...a favorite place

https://goo.gl/50PB4W is not desert but dry unabused ranch land

Did you catch the posts on

https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1074&bih=522&q=anza+borrego+railroad&oq=anza+borrego+railroad&gs_l=img.12..0i24.911.9028.0.11457.25.12.2.11.12.0.243.1627.0j11j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.25.1746...0j0i10i24j0i8i30.1_pGFEcnp-I

a prime destination.

The only WARM place is around Yuma. Yuma is warm from the Gulf but is dusty. Every valley east toward Texas drops 3-4-5 degrees from Yuma's 65-75 until winter arrives ceptin' Rockport TX, San Padre Island.

Blackwater State Forest is rideable in the Fla panhandle. On Florida riding the Florida Trail is OK. The Trail comes with insects and snakes.

Florida lacks elevation. Watching the GPS altitude looks like 60-80 feet in mid state is abt right. Snows at the GC. Doesn't snow in Yuma.

[Joerg]

Very nice. It's just way too cold in winter for my wife. We've both been
in SLC during summers and I've been there in winter.

St.George is something we've talked about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSWqy014rw4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUkiGx3ZFBw

I would not do the stuff at 4:25min though. For the remaining nuke
fallout from the olden days we should be old enough not to be affected
much anymore.

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-06 15:35, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> http://www.bikepacking.net/tripreports/4-days-in-the-sierra-nevada/
>

Yeah, we have some really nice vistas that are only accessible via MTB,
horse or on foot. Even though some don't believe it I took this photo of
the American River South Fork with my little old Nikon Coolpix:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/CronanTrail.JPG

>
> https://www.google.com/#q=bikepacking+POTTER+COUNTY
>
> The Sierra has a superior trail system ceptin' you could run into
> Manson et al...earth trials available scenery climate
>

The CA Sierra is nice. But for MTB riders Utah is even nicer, more
trails, less civilization, you don't run into fences all the time like
here. Plus CA gets too socialist for our taste which would be another
motivator to move.

> Potter's and the Northern Tier trails are woods roads in very good
> Wyerhauser condition.
>
> The Sierra is drier but not normally THAT DRY or dusty while PA is a
> upland temperate rain forest and normally somewhat slippery ...esp
> when it rains yukyukyuk
>
> New Mexico: https://www.google.com/#q=BIKE+PACKING+new+mexico
>
> Dry but upland is settled earth pro same for N.Arizona.
>
> Once below ? inches of rain ......the dirt get oppressive. I have
> photos.
>
> Prob ride backside of Sierra Vista and east of SV ...a favorite
> place
>
> https://goo.gl/50PB4W is not desert but dry unabused ranch land
>
> Did you catch the posts on
>
> https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1074&bih=522&q=anza+borrego+railroad&oq=anza+borrego+railroad&gs_l=img.12..0i24.911.9028.0.11457.25.12.2.11.12.0.243.1627.0j11j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.25.1746...0j0i10i24j0i8i30.1_pGFEcnp-I
>
> a prime destination.
>

There's pics from our railroad museum :-)

> The only WARM place is around Yuma. Yuma is warm from the Gulf but is
> dusty. Every valley east toward Texas drops 3-4-5 degrees from Yuma's
> 65-75 until winter arrives ceptin' Rockport TX, San Padre Island.
>
> Blackwater State Forest is rideable in the Fla panhandle. On Florida
> riding the Florida Trail is OK. The Trail comes with insects and
> snakes.
>

So do ours. Rattlesnakes. I ran over a big snake a few weeks ago. Looked
like a rattler but not sure. It didn't get a chance to strike ... <whew>
... but I felt sorry for it.

> Florida lacks elevation. Watching the GPS altitude looks like 60-80
> feet in mid state is abt right. Snows at the GC. Doesn't snow in
> Yuma.
>

I don't mind snow but shouldn't be cold all winter (sez my wife). No
elevation would be ok, then I don't have to slog up these hills anymore
after picking up a growler.

[John B.]

On Fri, 06 May 2016 07:09:03 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/5/2016 9:24 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/5/2016 10:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Can't you just walk into a bicycle shop and buy a 11-36
>>> cassette? I'm
>>> running a 12-36 (home made smallest cog) and that is what
>>> I did.
>>
>> I'm curious about the details of the home made 12 tooth cog.
>>
>>
>
>I think he meant swapping a 12t from a different cassette
>rather than cutting one tooth off a 13t sprocket!

Goodness, I never thought of that..... I wonder, will that work :-)

Think of how fast a 52/1 would be :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 6 May 2016 22:52:12 +0100, ro...@sarlet.com (Roger Merriman)
wrote:

Gear inches are a product of the circumference of the driven wheel and
tire size makes a difference. As I said with my crank and cassette I
get a range of 116 - 23.

>the eagle 10-50 cassette with 32t gives 17in-83in
>40t gives 21-104inch range
>
>it's very slightly more range than a MTB double though it costs a lot
>more!
>
>Roger Merriman

--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 6 May 2016 09:32:16 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>

Quite a long time ago I think I saw a Youtube of a guy with a double
gear system that he used to ride up some extremely steep hill, I think
I remember it was "back East" somewhere and was a sort of contest to
see who could get the furthest up the hill.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 06 May 2016 07:16:18 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Don't you get a discount? My bloke gives me a 15% discount on parts
and promises a 20% on a new bike, depending, of course, on the price
range of the bike.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

I believe the hill was in San Francisco, although I can't remember the
name of the street with the hill. It's a regular contest, IIRC. And I
believe the rider in question was Dan Gutierrez.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

funny isn't it that the guys in the video I posted and the two you posted are able to ride that terrain without busting their bikes or equipmet. They also don't seem to be too concerned with blowing out a tire on those jumps either.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

Fargo Street. One guy rode it in 2008 using a 7.5 gear inches setup. His setup has him level on as 32% grade. AWESOME!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgIL6eHHgZU

Cheers

[Tosspot]

Check out the seat post and stem!

[AMuzi]

Could be but if Mr Slocumb remembers 'back east' it was more
probably:
http://newtonsrevenge.com/

Newsy bit there is that 2016 was canceled for lack of
interest. Perhaps the younger types just bought an app
instead of actually going out of doors to climb a hill.

[John B.]

Probably was. I came across the you tube thing and watched it. I
probably thought it was the East Coast as they spoke English rather
then Spanish.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

I doahno what Slocom remembers but whatever's no longer there fersure.

The BLM/USDA reality is the land held was privately held for profit then once ripped off left to the gov for taxes. No great area riding in Texas as land is grazed without great tax burdens. Like the Malhuerians ?

re the photo, Northern California when in Texas for the winter remains in mind as a fairy tale land of mysterious beauty.

SLC could achieve that state only after long year in Portland.

Whattaabout the Land of Enchantment ? haven't poked around there. The run of NM's I meet on the road demo a rather hi abrasive quotient.

https://www.google.com/#q=new%20mexico%20heroin%20%20site%3Anytimes.com

[Frank Krygowski]

Yep. Slap on your Oculus Rift and climb any hill, not even breathing
hard. :-/



--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Hint: People tend to hit the stop button on their cameras when they have
to fix another flat. I don't get flats.

They also do not carry any loads and are obviously riding for sports,
not for errands like I often do (yes, with the MTB).

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-07 06:32, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> I doahno what Slocom remembers but whatever's no longer there
> fersure.
>
> The BLM/USDA reality is the land held was privately held for profit
> then once ripped off left to the gov for taxes. No great area riding
> in Texas as land is grazed without great tax burdens. Like the
> Malhuerians ?
>

It's often the other way around. The government took much of the land
and made it off limits. That's one of the key problems for MTB riders
out here. Sometimes they let you in on trails, sometimes not. There were
even cases where rangers stopped mountain bikers and proclaimed that
their vehicles were "motorized". Say WHAT?! Government overreach at its
finest.

> re the photo, Northern California when in Texas for the winter
> remains in mind as a fairy tale land of mysterious beauty.
>

If they allow you to ride. This wonderful trail was only opened when a
previous governor (Arnold Schwarzenegger) pushed it.

> SLC could achieve that state only after long year in Portland.
>

Maybe I should head out to St.George and see how biking is around there.
Not just MTB, the other requirement would be that the area is
cycle-friendly. Bike lanes and bike paths to stores and such.

[...]

[Sir Ridesalot]

Interesting, VERY interesting! First you say you carry loads then you say you don't carry loads and then you sqay you do carry loads. You say whatever is contrary to the discussion at hand!

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

Then along come the inconsiderate bicyclists who persist at riding at a high rate of sped on trails with poor sight lines and/or blind turns and have absolutely no consideration for the fact that there might be others using that same trail. The result is that ALL BICYCLISTS get banned from that area.

See http://www.losaltosonline.com/news/sections/news/199-city-affairs/52101

LAH council mulls Byrne Preserve bicycle ban

Excerpt:
"Blame it on Strava. The mobile app - and the cyclists who use it to brag about achieving top speeds on trails - weighed heavily in Los Altos Hills city councilmembers' unanimous decision Jan. 27 to entertain an ordinance prohibiting bicycles from Byrne Preserve.

"I'm done with this as far as I'm concerned," Councilman John Radford said. "The speed numbers that were talked about tonight are just incredibly unacceptable. I can't even believe. Sorry, whoever's done those apps and whoever puts that together - that just put a hole in the whole argument."
"

If bicyclist want to continue using trails then they need to get a lot more considerate of other people.

Cheers

[Joerg]

Huh? Where? Quote, please.

I nearly always carry some load on my bikes. Sometimes it's just a full
tool set, food and plenty of fluids. Other times it's stuff I have to
deliver of pick up. Sometimes light stuff, sometimes heavy stuff auch as
machine parts. Do you find that so unusual? Maybe you are only riding
for sports and then it may be hard for you to understand that there are
utility riders.

[Joerg]

Mine gives me 10%. But $16 for a pair of organic brake pads miues 10% is
still more than $3-7 for a pair of nice ceramic-based ones online. And a
$50+ cassette minus 10% is still more than one for $32 online.

[Joerg]

I sometimes do 20mph on trails. However, only when safe to do so and
with bright front lighting.

The bigger concern are not so much other riders but horses that can get
spooked.

[Roger Merriman]

eagle is a MTB system, it does have a good range compared to other 1x
systems and about even to 2x systems. But triples have bit more range,
seems to work out at about two extra gears, where they are depends on
wheelsize/chainrings. if I put that old 9 speed drive chain on a
29er/27.5+ that would give 119-19inch gear range.

Since the eagle is a MTB system that what i'm comparing it too rather
than the narrower range road systems.


snip

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

I'm a bit confused as "Newton's Revenge" is cancelled but the "The Mt.
Washington Auto Road Bicycle Hillclimb held on the third Saturday in
August." I assume from this that there are two different events.

As a child, with my parents, we drove up Mt. Washington on a vacation
trip. My memory is that it took a long time get up the hill and was
bloody cold on the top :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Don't forget his "growler" of beer, which the Internet tells me is a
1/2 gallon glass jug which would weigh perhaps 4 Kg, depending on
thickness of the jug.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

rOn Sat, 07 May 2016 12:51:05 -0700, Joerg

Gee, $16 is a lot of money in the U.S. It sounds as though your
economy is heading down the tubes. :-)

But your $50 for a cassette seems kinda high. I bought a 9 speed
cassette a couple of months ago and I don't remember it being that
much. As I remember (always a hazardous practice) I paid in the
neighborhood of $25 for a 11-32 cassette. A thousand baht is about 28
dollars and if I had paid more then that I'm pretty sure that I would
have remembered.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 8 May 2016 00:06:00 +0100, ro...@sarlet.com (Roger Merriman)

The problem I have with either a "compact" or single chain ring system
is that I never seem to be able to find the "perfect gear". On the
other hand with a triply I can usually find a combination that suits
me. My Phuket Bike has a 10 speed 12-32 with a 44-32-22 chain rings
that gives me 27 separate gear ratios from 96 to 23. One of those will
usually be "right" :-)


--

Cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

takes acpupla minutes checkout Pastrana vs Higgins

https://www.google.com/#q=mt%20washington%20hillclimb%20site%3Ayoutube.com

not the 800hp Audi but good for groceries.....

[Joerg]

This kind of thinking is exactly how most Americans amass a mountain of
debt. "Ah, those $60/person/month cell phone bill, peanuts. $80 gym
membership? Chump change". Yeah, right.

> But your $50 for a cassette seems kinda high. I bought a 9 speed
> cassette a couple of months ago and I don't remember it being that
> much. As I remember (always a hazardous practice) I paid in the
> neighborhood of $25 for a 11-32 cassette. A thousand baht is about 28
> dollars and if I had paid more then that I'm pretty sure that I would
> have remembered.
>

AFAIK (also always a hazardous place) Thailand is cheaper when it comes
to this stuff. 9-speed is a different ball game, mine is 10-speed and
yes, they run above $50 at local bike shops. So I buy online, as does
almost any higher-mileage rider around here. Even the rich folks, and
especially those. There is a reason why they got rich.

[John B.]

On Sun, 08 May 2016 10:04:06 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Strange that you would say that. Unless, of course, your brake pads
wear out rapidly. Mine, both for V-brake and Caliper, last a year or
so, and frankly I wouldn't consider $16 a year (or 4 cents a day ) to
be an outrageous amount for the pleasures of riding a bicycle.

As for your other costs, $60 phone bill, my usual cost here would be
more in the neighborhood of 5 - 10 dollars. My wife talks more and
her's probably costs $15 a month. So make it $25 a month for My
immediate family.

As for $80 gym costs? Well, what would you reckon a gym costs,
figuring in cost pf real estate and building, machinery and equipment,
maintenance, help, insurance, etc.

Back in the old days a "gym" was a barn with a few iron bars and
weights and probably some dumb bells. Add in the cost of the full
length mirrors and probably a shower and it was pretty cheap to put
together.

>
>> But your $50 for a cassette seems kinda high. I bought a 9 speed
>> cassette a couple of months ago and I don't remember it being that
>> much. As I remember (always a hazardous practice) I paid in the
>> neighborhood of $25 for a 11-32 cassette. A thousand baht is about 28
>> dollars and if I had paid more then that I'm pretty sure that I would
>> have remembered.
>>
>
>AFAIK (also always a hazardous place) Thailand is cheaper when it comes
>to this stuff. 9-speed is a different ball game, mine is 10-speed and
>yes, they run above $50 at local bike shops. So I buy online, as does
>almost any higher-mileage rider around here. Even the rich folks, and
>especially those. There is a reason why they got rich.

It is generally difficult to compare prices in one country with
another country as transportation, place of manufacturer, etc., all
enter into the calculation but I use Amazon prices as an indicator of
whether I am being charges an unrealistic price here in Thailand and
Amazon lists a "Shimano CS-5700 105 10-Speed Cassette" for as low as
$29.99, not so far off my $28.00.
--
cheers,

John B.

[James]

On 09/05/16 12:02, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 08 May 2016 10:04:06 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:

>> This kind of thinking is exactly how most Americans amass a mountain of
>> debt. "Ah, those $60/person/month cell phone bill, peanuts. $80 gym
>> membership? Chump change". Yeah, right.
>>
> Strange that you would say that. Unless, of course, your brake pads
> wear out rapidly. Mine, both for V-brake and Caliper, last a year or
> so, and frankly I wouldn't consider $16 a year (or 4 cents a day ) to
> be an outrageous amount for the pleasures of riding a bicycle.
>

Yep, brake pads last many months, if not years for me too.

> As for your other costs, $60 phone bill, my usual cost here would be
> more in the neighborhood of 5 - 10 dollars. My wife talks more and
> her's probably costs $15 a month. So make it $25 a month for My
> immediate family.

Mine is $25 / month.

>
> As for $80 gym costs? Well, what would you reckon a gym costs,
> figuring in cost pf real estate and building, machinery and equipment,
> maintenance, help, insurance, etc.
>
> Back in the old days a "gym" was a barn with a few iron bars and
> weights and probably some dumb bells. Add in the cost of the full
> length mirrors and probably a shower and it was pretty cheap to put
> together.
>

Yeah, but these days people pay for 24 hour access and the "fun" of
sitting on the gym stationary bicycle and doing a "spin class", what
ever the hell that is. The roads are far too dangerous to ride a
bicycle you see, so they drive to the gym and endanger those who risk
life and limb by riding on the road.

--
JS

[John B.]

On Mon, 9 May 2016 15:41:13 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 09/05/16 12:02, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 May 2016 10:04:06 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>> This kind of thinking is exactly how most Americans amass a mountain of
>>> debt. "Ah, those $60/person/month cell phone bill, peanuts. $80 gym
>>> membership? Chump change". Yeah, right.
>>>
>> Strange that you would say that. Unless, of course, your brake pads
>> wear out rapidly. Mine, both for V-brake and Caliper, last a year or
>> so, and frankly I wouldn't consider $16 a year (or 4 cents a day ) to
>> be an outrageous amount for the pleasures of riding a bicycle.
>>
>
>Yep, brake pads last many months, if not years for me too.
>
>> As for your other costs, $60 phone bill, my usual cost here would be
>> more in the neighborhood of 5 - 10 dollars. My wife talks more and
>> her's probably costs $15 a month. So make it $25 a month for My
>> immediate family.
>
>Mine is $25 / month.

Out of curiosity do you pay for incoming calls in Australia? We don't
here but in Singapore they pay for both sides of the conversation.

>>
>> As for $80 gym costs? Well, what would you reckon a gym costs,
>> figuring in cost pf real estate and building, machinery and equipment,
>> maintenance, help, insurance, etc.
>>
>> Back in the old days a "gym" was a barn with a few iron bars and
>> weights and probably some dumb bells. Add in the cost of the full
>> length mirrors and probably a shower and it was pretty cheap to put
>> together.
>>
>
>Yeah, but these days people pay for 24 hour access and the "fun" of
>sitting on the gym stationary bicycle and doing a "spin class", what
>ever the hell that is. The roads are far too dangerous to ride a
>bicycle you see, so they drive to the gym and endanger those who risk
>life and limb by riding on the road.

Admittedly I never took a "spin class" but I really wonder whether
sitting there spinning is as good an exercise as climbing a steep hill
in one or two gears higher then you are comfortable.

I used to do a training thing that was a repeated hill climb. Start in
your highest gear and climb as far and as fast as you can, coast back
down and select one gear lower and hit it again as hard as you can,
coast back and repeat until you either run out of gears or finally
climb the hill. If you finally climb the hill pick out a steeper or
longer hill for next time.

It adds new meaning to the term "rubber legs" :-)

--
cheers,

John B.

[Duane]

James <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
><snip>

>
> Yeah, but these days people pay for 24 hour access and the "fun" of
> sitting on the gym stationary bicycle and doing a "spin class", what
> ever the hell that is. The roads are far too dangerous to ride a
> bicycle you see, so they drive to the gym and endanger those who risk
> life and limb by riding on the road.
>

Around here with the Québec winters spinning classes are a way to train
that is a bit less boring than the trainer in the basement. I hate them
and prefer skiing to cross train but do some spinning just the same. It
beats starting from scratch every spring.

Some, probably most people taking the classes do them for weight loss and
wouldn't ride a bike outside anyway. Spinning classes are geared toward
these people and not really toward cyclists. But since I have a gym
membership anyway, they're cheaper than these Toguri type training sessions
with road bikes and video of the TDF routes.



--
duane

[AMuzi]

I never knew there were indoor motorcycle trainers until
this morning:
http://www.metalworkingworldmagazine.com/issues/2016_03_-may/

Lead article in that link.

[Roger Merriman]

John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 8 May 2016 00:06:00 +0100, ro...@sarlet.com (Roger Merriman)
> wrote:
>
> >John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 6 May 2016 22:52:12 +0100, ro...@sarlet.com (Roger Merriman)
> >> wrote:

big snips

> >> >
> >> >which triple?
> >> >
> >> >My old MTB with 22/32/44 and 11-34 and 2.1 tyres give 17-104 inch range.
> >>
> >> Gear inches are a product of the circumference of the driven wheel and
> >> tire size makes a difference. As I said with my crank and cassette I
> >> get a range of 116 - 23.
> >>
> >eagle is a MTB system, it does have a good range compared to other 1x
> >systems and about even to 2x systems. But triples have bit more range,
> >seems to work out at about two extra gears, where they are depends on
> >wheelsize/chainrings. if I put that old 9 speed drive chain on a
> >29er/27.5+ that would give 119-19inch gear range.
> >
> >Since the eagle is a MTB system that what i'm comparing it too rather
> >than the narrower range road systems.
> >
> >
> >snip
> >
> >Roger Merriman
>
> The problem I have with either a "compact" or single chain ring system
> is that I never seem to be able to find the "perfect gear". On the
> other hand with a triply I can usually find a combination that suits
> me. My Phuket Bike has a 10 speed 12-32 with a 44-32-22 chain rings
> that gives me 27 separate gear ratios from 96 to 23. One of those will
> usually be "right" :-)

My road bike is a triple and 7 speed at that, plus CX so has fairly wide
range so you can end up a little between the gears.

the MTB's though are fine both the 3x9 and the 2x10 the double is
slightly better for keeping the cadence most of the time.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

£35 $50 +for a cassette? that a fair old mark up, Deore is £30ish for
10speed £20 for 9speed and £15 for 7 speed, in the local (london) shops

and this both the chain stores and the Local Bike shop. I like having
local shops and thus use them.

the old 9speed MTB is my commute/town bike and with gritty and often wet
weather, I get 800ish miles per chain and 1700ish miles per cassette,
which is more than I used to get from the roadie FG/SS bike to be
honest.

Roger Merriman

[Joerg]

I was quoted $50-55 for 10-speed with 36T cog. Jenson had it for $32.
The free ship limit there was $50 so I added an MTB tire I always wanted
to try (CST Rock Hawk). We use the same strategy at Amazon which
recently upped the min free ship total to $49. We add in stuff from our
"will soon be needed" list but only enough to get above that limit. This
leaves the option to add the next item in case we urgently need
something else later.

> and this both the chain stores and the Local Bike shop. I like having
> local shops and thus use them.
>

So do I and thus elected to pay $100 more for my MTB versus online. But
that does have limits. When the price difference exceeds 25% I go online.

> the old 9speed MTB is my commute/town bike and with gritty and often wet
> weather, I get 800ish miles per chain and 1700ish miles per cassette,
> which is more than I used to get from the roadie FG/SS bike to be
> honest.
>

Assuming this is a road bike you must be riding harder than I do. On the
road bike I get more than 4k miles out of a cassette but not on the MTB.
A cassette lasts 2-3 chains like in your case, just more miles also for
chains. Despite my bikes being loaded down with stuff pretty much all
the time. I am a stickler though when it comes to chain maintenance,
they get good care here.

[Joerg]

On the road bike I use KoolStop for Cyclocross bikes. A painful
$15-20/pair but they last thousands of miles. I meant the MTB where the
local organic pads for $16 are gone within 500mi and the ceramic-based
ones from China for $3 last 800-1000mi. Now I can't find these Chinese
ones anymore, hurumph, grumble ...

> As for your other costs, $60 phone bill, my usual cost here would be
> more in the neighborhood of 5 - 10 dollars. My wife talks more and
> her's probably costs $15 a month. So make it $25 a month for My
> immediate family.
>

Well, that's Thailand. Europeans get better deals as well. This is
because in the US we have the old Missy Bell monopolies back. I have a
3rd party pay-as-you-go plan for $8/mo but that's for very low users.
Under 30min/month and no data or Internet. With Internet that would pop
to about $38/mo.

> As for $80 gym costs? Well, what would you reckon a gym costs,
> figuring in cost pf real estate and building, machinery and equipment,
> maintenance, help, insurance, etc.
>

The point is that people do not need this if they do classic gymnastics
and use their bicycles a lot. My dad was a very sporty guy all the way
up to very old age and never saw a gym from the inside. But he did
manage to break the frame of a bike :-)

> Back in the old days a "gym" was a barn with a few iron bars and
> weights and probably some dumb bells. Add in the cost of the full
> length mirrors and probably a shower and it was pretty cheap to put
> together.
>

Now they are ritzy places with TVs, soothing music and luxury car
parking out front.

>>
>>> But your $50 for a cassette seems kinda high. I bought a 9 speed
>>> cassette a couple of months ago and I don't remember it being that
>>> much. As I remember (always a hazardous practice) I paid in the
>>> neighborhood of $25 for a 11-32 cassette. A thousand baht is about 28
>>> dollars and if I had paid more then that I'm pretty sure that I would
>>> have remembered.
>>>
>>
>> AFAIK (also always a hazardous place) Thailand is cheaper when it comes
>> to this stuff. 9-speed is a different ball game, mine is 10-speed and
>> yes, they run above $50 at local bike shops. So I buy online, as does
>> almost any higher-mileage rider around here. Even the rich folks, and
>> especially those. There is a reason why they got rich.
>
> It is generally difficult to compare prices in one country with
> another country as transportation, place of manufacturer, etc., all
> enter into the calculation but I use Amazon prices as an indicator of
> whether I am being charges an unrealistic price here in Thailand and
> Amazon lists a "Shimano CS-5700 105 10-Speed Cassette" for as low as
> $29.99, not so far off my $28.00.

And $40 is what you'd pay if you'd walk into a local store out here:

https://www.rei.com/product/807888/shimano-105-cs-5700-10-speed-cassette

So I usually buy this sort of stuff online.

[Roger Merriman]

that as I said in last post if a fair old markup, the LBS sure more than
online but not 25%.

>
> > the old 9speed MTB is my commute/town bike and with gritty and often wet
> > weather, I get 800ish miles per chain and 1700ish miles per cassette,
> > which is more than I used to get from the roadie FG/SS bike to be
> > honest.
> >
>
> Assuming this is a road bike you must be riding harder than I do. On the
> road bike I get more than 4k miles out of a cassette but not on the MTB.
> A cassette lasts 2-3 chains like in your case, just more miles also for
> chains. Despite my bikes being loaded down with stuff pretty much all
> the time. I am a stickler though when it comes to chain maintenance,
> they get good care here.

no it's a old MTB which now retired from climbing hills, takes me too
work and such, which means it spends most of life on gravel tracks, the
chain is clean but i'm quick and heavy, the bike is 44lb before I load
it up.

Roger Merriman

[James]

On 09/05/16 21:03, John B. wrote:

>
> Out of curiosity do you pay for incoming calls in Australia? We don't
> here but in Singapore they pay for both sides of the conversation.
>

No, only outgoing. Only exception would be if you accepted a reverse
charges call

--
JS

[John B.]

At James' $80/month gym rate - 960 a year - one can only assume that
these people have excess disposable funds :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 10 May 2016 06:51:10 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Which seems the fair way to charge as, if I remember, a "land line"
has no charge at all for local calls :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 09 May 2016 09:56:41 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

I agree that people do not NEED to go to gyms, I was commenting on
reasons why a gym costs would be higher then perhaps the old style
weight lifting gym.

>
>> Back in the old days a "gym" was a barn with a few iron bars and
>> weights and probably some dumb bells. Add in the cost of the full
>> length mirrors and probably a shower and it was pretty cheap to put
>> together.
>>
>
>Now they are ritzy places with TVs, soothing music and luxury car
>parking out front.

My impression is that is what the customer wants. Thus, assuming that
he/she/it has money, they gets it.

>>>
>>>> But your $50 for a cassette seems kinda high. I bought a 9 speed
>>>> cassette a couple of months ago and I don't remember it being that
>>>> much. As I remember (always a hazardous practice) I paid in the
>>>> neighborhood of $25 for a 11-32 cassette. A thousand baht is about 28
>>>> dollars and if I had paid more then that I'm pretty sure that I would
>>>> have remembered.
>>>>
>>>
>>> AFAIK (also always a hazardous place) Thailand is cheaper when it comes
>>> to this stuff. 9-speed is a different ball game, mine is 10-speed and
>>> yes, they run above $50 at local bike shops. So I buy online, as does
>>> almost any higher-mileage rider around here. Even the rich folks, and
>>> especially those. There is a reason why they got rich.
>>
>> It is generally difficult to compare prices in one country with
>> another country as transportation, place of manufacturer, etc., all
>> enter into the calculation but I use Amazon prices as an indicator of
>> whether I am being charges an unrealistic price here in Thailand and
>> Amazon lists a "Shimano CS-5700 105 10-Speed Cassette" for as low as
>> $29.99, not so far off my $28.00.
>
>
>And $40 is what you'd pay if you'd walk into a local store out here:
>
>https://www.rei.com/product/807888/shimano-105-cs-5700-10-speed-cassette
>
>So I usually buy this sort of stuff online.

Yup, and one can only speculate as to why local costs are so high. I
believe that A. Muzi moved from downtown to "out of town" and one of
the reasons I read that he had alluded to was high "in town" taxes.

You can't have special bicycle tracks and low taxes :-)

--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-09 19:08, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 09 May 2016 09:56:41 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2016-05-08 19:02, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sun, 08 May 2016 10:04:06 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2016-05-07 22:02, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>> As for $80 gym costs? Well, what would you reckon a gym costs,
>>> figuring in cost pf real estate and building, machinery and equipment,
>>> maintenance, help, insurance, etc.
>>>
>>
>> The point is that people do not need this if they do classic gymnastics
>> and use their bicycles a lot. My dad was a very sporty guy all the way
>> up to very old age and never saw a gym from the inside. But he did
>> manage to break the frame of a bike :-)
>
> I agree that people do not NEED to go to gyms, I was commenting on
> reasons why a gym costs would be higher then perhaps the old style
> weight lifting gym.
>

The $80 I stated was roughly the average of what people who had such
memberships told me. It goes on a dn on. For example, most people do not
really need an unlimited big fat cell phone plan for $50-60/month. But
they have it anyhow "because everyone does". Well, no me.

>>
>>> Back in the old days a "gym" was a barn with a few iron bars and
>>> weights and probably some dumb bells. Add in the cost of the full
>>> length mirrors and probably a shower and it was pretty cheap to put
>>> together.
>>>
>>
>> Now they are ritzy places with TVs, soothing music and luxury car
>> parking out front.
>
> My impression is that is what the customer wants. Thus, assuming that
> he/she/it has money, they gets it.
>

Sure. My point is that this is how thoughts like "Oh, $16 is nothing"
come about. And this is how scores of people go deep into debt in the
US. It's essentially financial carelessness that starts small and then
swallows everything.

>>>>
>>>>> But your $50 for a cassette seems kinda high. I bought a 9 speed
>>>>> cassette a couple of months ago and I don't remember it being that
>>>>> much. As I remember (always a hazardous practice) I paid in the
>>>>> neighborhood of $25 for a 11-32 cassette. A thousand baht is about 28
>>>>> dollars and if I had paid more then that I'm pretty sure that I would
>>>>> have remembered.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> AFAIK (also always a hazardous place) Thailand is cheaper when it comes
>>>> to this stuff. 9-speed is a different ball game, mine is 10-speed and
>>>> yes, they run above $50 at local bike shops. So I buy online, as does
>>>> almost any higher-mileage rider around here. Even the rich folks, and
>>>> especially those. There is a reason why they got rich.
>>>
>>> It is generally difficult to compare prices in one country with
>>> another country as transportation, place of manufacturer, etc., all
>>> enter into the calculation but I use Amazon prices as an indicator of
>>> whether I am being charges an unrealistic price here in Thailand and
>>> Amazon lists a "Shimano CS-5700 105 10-Speed Cassette" for as low as
>>> $29.99, not so far off my $28.00.
>>
>>
>> And $40 is what you'd pay if you'd walk into a local store out here:
>>
>> https://www.rei.com/product/807888/shimano-105-cs-5700-10-speed-cassette
>>
>> So I usually buy this sort of stuff online.
>
> Yup, and one can only speculate as to why local costs are so high. I
> believe that A. Muzi moved from downtown to "out of town" and one of
> the reasons I read that he had alluded to was high "in town" taxes.
>

Having a shop in midtown makes less and less sense these days. Wanton
tax rules and overregulating are reasons for increasing urban blight. In
Sacramento we have prime examples of the consequences. The city has
major trouble re-populating stretches such as the shuttered store fronts
on K-Street, cycling infracstructure down there is mediocre at best,
homeless sleep everywhere. Fast forward to Folsom just 30 miles east.
One mall after the other gets built, excellent bicycling infrastructure,
people flock there to live, it's a joy to be there (I was yesterday, on
my road bike).

> You can't have special bicycle tracks and low taxes :-)
>

Oh, you can. Utah is a prime example. Pristine MTB tracks yet modest
taxes. I really don't like moving but I am sure tempted when looking at
the St.George area.

[Joerg]

This has pitfalls. Example Germany: Cell phone users are not charged for
incoming calls but callers are usually charged exorbitant rates per
minute. Those with limited funds do this exactly once. Then they'll say
to the guy who thought his dropping the landline was oh so smart "Sorry,
man, our last chat cost me almost 10 Euros so I can't call you anymore".

[John B.]

On Tue, 10 May 2016 08:09:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Well, I still believe that $16 is almost literally "pocket change" but
your point about people going into debt is certainly true and of
course the credit card companies encourage it.

Years ago I used to go to the bank on pay day; deposit my check and
walk across the room to the "credit card" counter and write a check to
pay off my credit card charges.

One day the guy at the credit card counter says, "You know, you don't
have to pay the whole thing each month, you can just pay part". I
replied that "according to the credit card contract I will be billed
at one month intervals and if I pay the charges within one month of
receiving the bill there was no interest, so I essentially get a free
loan for two months. The guy said, "Yes, some people understand that."

From
http://www.utaheducationfacts.com/index.php/get-the-facts/spending/188-your-taxes

Utah's total tax and fee burden as a percent of personal income
increased from 5.76% in FY 2005 (revised) to 16.08% in FY 2006. Utah's
ranking, however, improved from 5th highest to 8th highest. Excluding
fees, Utah's tax burden at 11.34% of personal income ranks 20th and is
just slightly above the national average of 11.24%. When all state and
local government revenue is included, Utah ranks 11th highest.

--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 10 May 2016 16:44:52 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> considered Tue, 10 May 2016 08:46:03

>But it does have a standing charge or line rental.
>Which could be viewed as the call recipient paying the telco for the
>privilege of making themself available to be contacted - just like
>taking incoming calls from "free minutes" on a cellphone.
>So it's a bit of a case of "Swings and roundabouts".

Not exactly. On a land line you do pay a monthly charge but that, in
most places, has no relationship to use. You could, and my grand kids
used to, talk almost all day without any extra charges.

>I do wish that whatever charging system a country uses is used across
>the board, on both systems. I don't see any rationality in having two
>completely different charging models in competition with each other in
>the same country, as it makes it unreasonably difficult for customers
>to compare contracts and prices.

I think in most countries the difference is that one service (land
line) is provided by an old, established, entity who's billing rates
date back to what was established years and years ago. The other
service (hand phones) is NEW and it's billing rates are MODERN and
HIGH TECH.... and thus more expensive :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 10 May 2016 16:44:36 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

I currently pay 0.35 cents (in U.S. terms) a minute.

--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

On the cell phone? That's impossible in the US unless you have a flat
rate deal which comes with high monthly fees.

When I call Germany from here in the US it costs me 2.5 cents (USD) if
it's a land line over there. If it is a cellular recipient my cost
increases tenfold to 25 cents. Therefore, one tends to prefer not to
call cell phones over in Europe or at least keep the chat short.

[Joerg]

$16 is small money these days but on an MTB you'd easily run through
half a dozen pad sets per year. That's $80. Add in all those other
"pocket change" items and you have a serious chunk of money that would
be much better applied reducing the mortgage or something like that.

> Years ago I used to go to the bank on pay day; deposit my check and
> walk across the room to the "credit card" counter and write a check to
> pay off my credit card charges.
>
> One day the guy at the credit card counter says, "You know, you don't
> have to pay the whole thing each month, you can just pay part". I
> replied that "according to the credit card contract I will be billed
> at one month intervals and if I pay the charges within one month of
> receiving the bill there was no interest, so I essentially get a free
> loan for two months. The guy said, "Yes, some people understand that."
>

Bingo. Most people understand that but the majority of them does not
have the discipline to live withing their means. They see something,
they want to have it, and the credit card makes that sort of behavior
"easy".

[...]

>>> You can't have special bicycle tracks and low taxes :-)
>>>
>>
>> Oh, you can. Utah is a prime example. Pristine MTB tracks yet modest
>> taxes. I really don't like moving but I am sure tempted when looking at
>> the St.George area.
>
> From
> http://www.utaheducationfacts.com/index.php/get-the-facts/spending/188-your-taxes
>
> Utah's total tax and fee burden as a percent of personal income
> increased from 5.76% in FY 2005 (revised) to 16.08% in FY 2006. Utah's
> ranking, however, improved from 5th highest to 8th highest. Excluding
> fees, Utah's tax burden at 11.34% of personal income ranks 20th and is
> just slightly above the national average of 11.24%. When all state and
> local government revenue is included, Utah ranks 11th highest.
>

Yes, but California has almost the highest tax burden in the country and
the leftists have messed it up so badly that the budget will never work
in the long run without more increases.

In retirement the income tax isn't that important anymore. One must look
at other taxes that are income-independent. In particular property taxes
which are painfully high in the US, and then sales taxes which can be
between zero and about 10%. House prices are also a major factor, in
part because the property taxes are based on that.

Example: In California a $3k MTB will cost you about $3250. Across the
border in Oregon it will cost you $3000. In retirement that difference
matters.

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-11 10:19, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Wed, 11 May 2016

> 09:25:52 -0700 the perfect time to write:
>
>> On 2016-05-10 18:40, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>> Years ago I used to go to the bank on pay day; deposit my check and
>>> walk across the room to the "credit card" counter and write a check to
>>> pay off my credit card charges.
>>>
>>> One day the guy at the credit card counter says, "You know, you don't
>>> have to pay the whole thing each month, you can just pay part". I
>>> replied that "according to the credit card contract I will be billed
>>> at one month intervals and if I pay the charges within one month of
>>> receiving the bill there was no interest, so I essentially get a free
>>> loan for two months. The guy said, "Yes, some people understand that."
>>>
>>
>> Bingo. Most people understand that but the majority of them does not
>> have the discipline to live withing their means. They see something,
>> they want to have it, and the credit card makes that sort of behavior
>> "easy".
>>

> Or they set up their affairs at a time when times are good, then get
> hit with redundancy or illness, so the first bill to not get paid is
> the one you don't HAVE to - and then the interest starts piling up.
>
> It's what the banks bet on when they offer those terms.


A more dangerous scenario is that offer "Get your new couch tomorrow but
don't start payments until 2018!". Next year they forget about it, then
Januray 2018 rolls around and WHAMBAM.

The topper though were adjustable rate mortgages which crippled the
world economy. I predicted that in 2006 and was laughed at. Amongst
others by real estate professionals who then lost their own home in the
wake. At that point I lost faith in the competence of central bank
presidents because they should have seen it coming much earlier than I
did yet they did not see it.

[...]

[John B.]

On Wed, 11 May 2016 07:13:16 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

wrote:

>On 2016-05-10 19:06, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 May 2016 16:44:36 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2016-05-09 18:46, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 10 May 2016 06:51:10 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 09/05/16 21:03, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Out of curiosity do you pay for incoming calls in Australia? We don't
>>>>>> here but in Singapore they pay for both sides of the conversation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, only outgoing. Only exception would be if you accepted a reverse
>>>>> charges call
>>>>
>>>> Which seems the fair way to charge as, if I remember, a "land line"
>>>> has no charge at all for local calls :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> This has pitfalls. Example Germany: Cell phone users are not charged for
>>> incoming calls but callers are usually charged exorbitant rates per
>>> minute. Those with limited funds do this exactly once. Then they'll say
>>> to the guy who thought his dropping the landline was oh so smart "Sorry,
>>> man, our last chat cost me almost 10 Euros so I can't call you anymore".
>>
>> I currently pay 0.35 cents (in U.S. terms) a minute.
>>
>
>On the cell phone? That's impossible in the US unless you have a flat
>rate deal which comes with high monthly fees.
>

Ah, but you are in the land of opportunity :-)

>When I call Germany from here in the US it costs me 2.5 cents (USD) if
>it's a land line over there. If it is a cellular recipient my cost
>increases tenfold to 25 cents. Therefore, one tends to prefer not to
>call cell phones over in Europe or at least keep the chat short.

I don't make international calls on a hand phone. Nor do I "roam"
using a hand phone. That is simply foolishness. If I visit a foreign
country I buy a SIM card issued by the local phone company and use
that. If you want to contact "home base" send a text message.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 11 May 2016 09:25:52 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

In essence then you are voluntarily engaging in an activity that you
know results in extra wear on your bicycle and then complaining about
it. The solution is simple - ride on the roads :-)

>
>> Years ago I used to go to the bank on pay day; deposit my check and
>> walk across the room to the "credit card" counter and write a check to
>> pay off my credit card charges.
>>
>> One day the guy at the credit card counter says, "You know, you don't
>> have to pay the whole thing each month, you can just pay part". I
>> replied that "according to the credit card contract I will be billed
>> at one month intervals and if I pay the charges within one month of
>> receiving the bill there was no interest, so I essentially get a free
>> loan for two months. The guy said, "Yes, some people understand that."
>>
>
>Bingo. Most people understand that but the majority of them does not
>have the discipline to live withing their means. They see something,
>they want to have it, and the credit card makes that sort of behavior
>"easy".

But self reliance, or perhaps self discipline, is supposed to be a
mark of maturity.

>
>
>>>> You can't have special bicycle tracks and low taxes :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, you can. Utah is a prime example. Pristine MTB tracks yet modest
>>> taxes. I really don't like moving but I am sure tempted when looking at
>>> the St.George area.
>>
>> From
>> http://www.utaheducationfacts.com/index.php/get-the-facts/spending/188-your-taxes
>>
>> Utah's total tax and fee burden as a percent of personal income
>> increased from 5.76% in FY 2005 (revised) to 16.08% in FY 2006. Utah's
>> ranking, however, improved from 5th highest to 8th highest. Excluding
>> fees, Utah's tax burden at 11.34% of personal income ranks 20th and is
>> just slightly above the national average of 11.24%. When all state and
>> local government revenue is included, Utah ranks 11th highest.
>>
>
>Yes, but California has almost the highest tax burden in the country and
>the leftists have messed it up so badly that the budget will never work
>in the long run without more increases.
>
>In retirement the income tax isn't that important anymore. One must look
>at other taxes that are income-independent. In particular property taxes
>which are painfully high in the US, and then sales taxes which can be
>between zero and about 10%. House prices are also a major factor, in
>part because the property taxes are based on that.
>
>Example: In California a $3k MTB will cost you about $3250. Across the
>border in Oregon it will cost you $3000. In retirement that difference
>matters.
--

cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 11 May 2016 18:19:21 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Wed, 11 May 2016
>09:25:52 -0700 the perfect time to write:
>

>Our old saying "Look after the pennies and the pounds will take care
>of themselves" applies here.

That is probably going to change - look after the cents and the euros
will take care of themselves :-)

>>
>>> Years ago I used to go to the bank on pay day; deposit my check and
>>> walk across the room to the "credit card" counter and write a check to
>>> pay off my credit card charges.
>>>
>>> One day the guy at the credit card counter says, "You know, you don't
>>> have to pay the whole thing each month, you can just pay part". I
>>> replied that "according to the credit card contract I will be billed
>>> at one month intervals and if I pay the charges within one month of
>>> receiving the bill there was no interest, so I essentially get a free
>>> loan for two months. The guy said, "Yes, some people understand that."
>>>
>>
>>Bingo. Most people understand that but the majority of them does not
>>have the discipline to live withing their means. They see something,
>>they want to have it, and the credit card makes that sort of behavior
>>"easy".
>>

>Or they set up their affairs at a time when times are good, then get
>hit with redundancy or illness, so the first bill to not get paid is
>the one you don't HAVE to - and then the interest starts piling up.
>
>It's what the banks bet on when they offer those terms.

Of course. Banks are in the business of lending money for interest.

>>
>>>>> You can't have special bicycle tracks and low taxes :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh, you can. Utah is a prime example. Pristine MTB tracks yet modest
>>>> taxes. I really don't like moving but I am sure tempted when looking at
>>>> the St.George area.
>>>
>>> From
>>> http://www.utaheducationfacts.com/index.php/get-the-facts/spending/188-your-taxes
>>>
>>> Utah's total tax and fee burden as a percent of personal income
>>> increased from 5.76% in FY 2005 (revised) to 16.08% in FY 2006. Utah's
>>> ranking, however, improved from 5th highest to 8th highest. Excluding
>>> fees, Utah's tax burden at 11.34% of personal income ranks 20th and is
>>> just slightly above the national average of 11.24%. When all state and
>>> local government revenue is included, Utah ranks 11th highest.
>>>
>>
>>Yes, but California has almost the highest tax burden in the country and
>>the leftists have messed it up so badly that the budget will never work
>>in the long run without more increases.
>>

The point was that Utah had nearly tripled their tax burden. Not that
California is simply reckless in their financial activities.

>>In retirement the income tax isn't that important anymore. One must look
>>at other taxes that are income-independent. In particular property taxes
>>which are painfully high in the US, and then sales taxes which can be
>>between zero and about 10%. House prices are also a major factor, in
>>part because the property taxes are based on that.
>>
>>Example: In California a $3k MTB will cost you about $3250. Across the
>>border in Oregon it will cost you $3000. In retirement that difference
>>matters.
--

cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 11 May 2016 10:37:29 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

To be honest, I simply can't have much sympathy for someone who
doesn't "read the small print". There is nothing wrong with
adjustable rate borrowing, in fact it may be advantageous in some
instances.

The problem you describe had very little, if anything, to do with the
form of the mortgage. What was the problem was people entering into
agreements that they simply could not afford, and when they got bit
they rationalized it away by saying, "Oh! The banks made me do it",
rather then telling the truth and saying, "Oh! I was stupid".
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

Not when it comes to phone systems and especially rates. Even our
Internet connections are not quite up to par on average with numerous
other countries.

>> When I call Germany from here in the US it costs me 2.5 cents (USD) if
>> it's a land line over there. If it is a cellular recipient my cost
>> increases tenfold to 25 cents. Therefore, one tends to prefer not to
>> call cell phones over in Europe or at least keep the chat short.
>
> I don't make international calls on a hand phone. Nor do I "roam"
> using a hand phone. That is simply foolishness. If I visit a foreign
> country I buy a SIM card issued by the local phone company and use
> that. If you want to contact "home base" send a text message.
>

You are probably retired. In business that can be different. Like
calling a destination overseas from the airport before your flight. Or
having to answer an urgent request while riding your bike. The engineer
at the other end may be stuck at a factory site overseas and in
immediate need of your assistance.

[Joerg]

The main problem was much deeper than that. People, to my surprise even
very smart financial and other professionals, were of the firm opinion
that the real estate market from here on could only go in one direction:
Up. So they agreed to mortgages where either the rate adjusted to some
exorbitantly high percentage in x years or a balloon payment came due in
x years. That was to be supposedly "easily handled" because the property
would be worth much more by then versus at purchase. Then one fine day
... *POOF*

[Joerg]

My MTB doesn't have to suffer too differently from my SUV which has seen
its fair share of rough turf. For me such use is normal an must be
withstood. Motor vehicles do that much better than bicycles because
their parts are generally of a better price/performance ratio.

>>
>>> Years ago I used to go to the bank on pay day; deposit my check and
>>> walk across the room to the "credit card" counter and write a check to
>>> pay off my credit card charges.
>>>
>>> One day the guy at the credit card counter says, "You know, you don't
>>> have to pay the whole thing each month, you can just pay part". I
>>> replied that "according to the credit card contract I will be billed
>>> at one month intervals and if I pay the charges within one month of
>>> receiving the bill there was no interest, so I essentially get a free
>>> loan for two months. The guy said, "Yes, some people understand that."
>>>
>>
>> Bingo. Most people understand that but the majority of them does not
>> have the discipline to live withing their means. They see something,
>> they want to have it, and the credit card makes that sort of behavior
>> "easy".
>
> But self reliance, or perhaps self discipline, is supposed to be a
> mark of maturity.
>

It is my firm opinion that the majority of people in countries like the
US are not really mature when it comes to finances. And many never
really will be.

In other countries I've seen or lived in such maturity was often forced
by the unavailability of such wanton credit offers. For example, in the
Netherlands or Germany we could not buy a new sofa and start the
payments on it two years later. Here people can.

[...]

[Joerg]

On 2016-05-11 17:24, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2016 18:19:21 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Wed, 11 May 2016
>> 09:25:52 -0700 the perfect time to write:
>>
>>> On 2016-05-10 18:40, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 10 May 2016 08:09:55 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2016-05-09 19:08, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>>>>> You can't have special bicycle tracks and low taxes :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, you can. Utah is a prime example. Pristine MTB tracks yet modest
>>>>> taxes. I really don't like moving but I am sure tempted when looking at
>>>>> the St.George area.
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>> http://www.utaheducationfacts.com/index.php/get-the-facts/spending/188-your-taxes
>>>>
>>>> Utah's total tax and fee burden as a percent of personal income
>>>> increased from 5.76% in FY 2005 (revised) to 16.08% in FY 2006. Utah's
>>>> ranking, however, improved from 5th highest to 8th highest. Excluding
>>>> fees, Utah's tax burden at 11.34% of personal income ranks 20th and is
>>>> just slightly above the national average of 11.24%. When all state and
>>>> local government revenue is included, Utah ranks 11th highest.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but California has almost the highest tax burden in the country and
>>> the leftists have messed it up so badly that the budget will never work
>>> in the long run without more increases.
>>>
>
> The point was that Utah had nearly tripled their tax burden.

The long term numbers speak very differently about that:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865619629/Utahs-tax-burden-at-20-year-low-report-says.html?pg=all

[...]