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More on conspicuity
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Прескокни до првата непрочитана порака
Frank Krygowski
22.3.2017, во 13:02:0622.3.17
до
Does high visibility clothing affect passing clearance? Perhaps not.
From
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/mar/21/bike-helmet-cyclists-safe-urban-warfare-wheels
"In 2013 the tireless Ian Walker carried out a more extensive version of
his helmet study. It also measured how closely drivers passed a bike
when overtaking, but this time – using a volunteer colleague rather than
himself – there were seven different outfits. Four made the rider look
like a cyclist of varying experience and dedication, ranging from full
Lycra to more everyday clothes, including one involving a hi-vis jacket.
Three other outfits were based around bright yellow waistcoats bearing
written messages. One read, “Novice cyclist: please pass slowly”;
another said, “Polite: please slow down” – “polite” is sometimes used by
UK cyclists and horse riders in the hope drivers might mistake it for
“police” – and finally one read, “Police: camera cyclist”.
This brought data for just under 5,700 overtakes, more or less evenly
split between the seven outfits. None of the outfits made an appreciable
difference to driver behaviour, apart from the one saying “police”. For
the six others, the average passing distance was between about 114cm and
118cm. For “police” it went above 122cm. Similarly, the proportion of
drivers who went very near the bike was noticeably lower for the
“police” vest. In contrast, the tabard saying “polite” saw the nearest
average overtaking distance and almost twice as many potentially
dangerous passes as “police”.
The lessons seem clear and worrying. For one thing, no matter which
outfit was worn, a small percentage of drivers still overtook
dangerously near, at a distance of 50cm or less. More than this, it
seemed drivers were perfectly able to distinguish between different
types of rider, and to read and absorb any message displayed. But rather
than adjusting their driving to the perceived experience of the cyclist,
it was only when faced with a threat to their own welfare – a police
rider filming their actions – that many allowed a cyclist more space on
the road. Most alarming still, some seemed to treat the mild attempt at
deception of “polite” as a reason to almost punish the cyclist."
I don't recall hearing of this study.
Warning: The article linked above, from which this quote is taken, will
be offensive to some.
--
- Frank Krygowski
From
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/mar/21/bike-helmet-cyclists-safe-urban-warfare-wheels
"In 2013 the tireless Ian Walker carried out a more extensive version of
his helmet study. It also measured how closely drivers passed a bike
when overtaking, but this time – using a volunteer colleague rather than
himself – there were seven different outfits. Four made the rider look
like a cyclist of varying experience and dedication, ranging from full
Lycra to more everyday clothes, including one involving a hi-vis jacket.
Three other outfits were based around bright yellow waistcoats bearing
written messages. One read, “Novice cyclist: please pass slowly”;
another said, “Polite: please slow down” – “polite” is sometimes used by
UK cyclists and horse riders in the hope drivers might mistake it for
“police” – and finally one read, “Police: camera cyclist”.
This brought data for just under 5,700 overtakes, more or less evenly
split between the seven outfits. None of the outfits made an appreciable
difference to driver behaviour, apart from the one saying “police”. For
the six others, the average passing distance was between about 114cm and
118cm. For “police” it went above 122cm. Similarly, the proportion of
drivers who went very near the bike was noticeably lower for the
“police” vest. In contrast, the tabard saying “polite” saw the nearest
average overtaking distance and almost twice as many potentially
dangerous passes as “police”.
The lessons seem clear and worrying. For one thing, no matter which
outfit was worn, a small percentage of drivers still overtook
dangerously near, at a distance of 50cm or less. More than this, it
seemed drivers were perfectly able to distinguish between different
types of rider, and to read and absorb any message displayed. But rather
than adjusting their driving to the perceived experience of the cyclist,
it was only when faced with a threat to their own welfare – a police
rider filming their actions – that many allowed a cyclist more space on
the road. Most alarming still, some seemed to treat the mild attempt at
deception of “polite” as a reason to almost punish the cyclist."
I don't recall hearing of this study.
Warning: The article linked above, from which this quote is taken, will
be offensive to some.
--
- Frank Krygowski
cycl...@gmail.com
22.3.2017, во 13:50:0022.3.17
до
I think you know my position on helmets. I do not recommend them for saving lives but for reducing minor head injuries to near nothing.
But I have ridden behind a man wearing a Sky black kit through an area of trees so that the road was alternately in shadow or bright sunlight. I KNEW that man was there and yet he actually would disappear. That was not the case with those with bright colors.In fact the most outstanding jersey I've seen on that road in those conditions has been the ONCE Giro leaders pink.
Now as a cyclist and more aware of bicycles than other road users, if I can't see a cyclists only 50 feet ahead of me I do not expect a car to see them either.
Andre Jute
22.3.2017, во 14:28:4522.3.17
до
I believe the results of Ian Walker's study. They bear out a much more casual study I undertook a couple of years ago.
In my village there is a quay ( a road beside a river) that once carried bidirectional traffic as well as parked cars to one side and a border beside the river wall wide enough for shrubs and trees, so appearing spacious as well. As part of a general redesign of traffic flow, it was made one way about a generation ago, with the parking on the passenger side of drivers. The space left for drivers is two cars' width. The section between one crossing stop and the next crossing stop is all visible and is not long enough to get up any real speed, and is in any event clearly in town and subject to the general speed limit applicable to towns. Almost anyone who uses this piece of road does so daily, so they know all this, and also that it narrowa somewhat at the end junction, but this is compensated for by there being no parking at that point.
General experience on this piece of road is that, if you ride beside the parked cars, drivers tend to pass closely enough to push you into them. If you ride out from the parked cars, drivers don't pass, though there is in effect a spare lane-width (nothing marked on the road) but that some press their horns. Ladies among my pedal pals ride on the sidewalk to avoid the hassle.
My test was intended to prove only that drivers who can see how close a bicycle is to damaging the expensive paintwork on their cars will give a cyclist more space. This is something I prove daily in the narrow lanes outside town by going to the driver side of the lane and watching how much more space drivers give me than when they pass me with the passenger side of their cars. But this piece of road allowed for quick iteration (return via the quay in the other side of the road, 9-12 tests per hour) under controlled circumstances.
The test consisted of alternating rides on the "correct" passenger side of the drivers and on the "wrong" driver side near the green strip. In all tests I was dressed in a safety yellow cycling jacket with plenty of reflective, and all the lamps on my bike were lit (good strong blinkies fore and aft, best quality BUMM lamps front and rear), as well as reflectors front and rear. All test in daylight with sunshine.
The findings were:
1. Further proof of what we knew already, that in the correct position on the passenger side of cars, drivers would give a cyclist less space, sometimes to pushing him towards the parked cars. The test was done in the summer; most cars had open sunroofs; it was several times necessary to shout out, "Watch what you're doing, you moron." An amazing number left me clearly much less space than the legally mandated minimum distance of 1.5 meters for passing a cyclist. This despite there being plenty of space to the other side of the car which the driver could plainly see. I wrote on my tallysheet: "They're not even malicious, they're just careless and incompetent."
2. Riding on the green barrier side, next to the driver, the first observation was how many of the drivers would stay behind and not pass, despite there being plenty of space for their cars between my bicycle and the parked cars. Those who did pass gave me much more space than those who couldn't see how far they were from me. None pushed me into kerb of the green border (they might have towards the end where the road narrows, but there I always took the lane as I do normally in situations I judge dangerous -- to do otherwise would have skewed the test).
3. I concluded that drivers who can see how close a bicycle is to doing expensive damage to their car's paint- and panel-work gives the cyclist more space out of simple self-interest.
4. It is also my opinion, though my test doesn't necessarily prove it, that those who came too close when I rode on their passenger side, and the people in Ian Walkers much larger test who Franki-boy concludes, very likely correctly, reacted maliciously to attempts to deceive them, all have an unrealistically overwrought sense of their own driving ability. (That is true of course of the majority of drivers, and near enough of 100% of those who cause accidents.)
5. None of this is intended to contradict Jeff Liebermann's thesis that many drivers just don't see cyclists. The two ideas are easily reconciled by confirmation bias: people see what they expect to see, and their expectation is conditioned by their experience. If they have long experience of cyclists not being a danger to their limbs, lives and property, they expect cyclists not to be a danger to them in future, and stop seeing them. I have no problem believing in all three ideas: economic drives, invisible cyclists, and losers, and in all their interactions too.
Andre Jute
Now you're getting something right, for the second time in your life, Franki-boy. Nice work in Ohio and posting the Guardian piece, Krygowski. Credit where it is due, even to you.
In my village there is a quay ( a road beside a river) that once carried bidirectional traffic as well as parked cars to one side and a border beside the river wall wide enough for shrubs and trees, so appearing spacious as well. As part of a general redesign of traffic flow, it was made one way about a generation ago, with the parking on the passenger side of drivers. The space left for drivers is two cars' width. The section between one crossing stop and the next crossing stop is all visible and is not long enough to get up any real speed, and is in any event clearly in town and subject to the general speed limit applicable to towns. Almost anyone who uses this piece of road does so daily, so they know all this, and also that it narrowa somewhat at the end junction, but this is compensated for by there being no parking at that point.
General experience on this piece of road is that, if you ride beside the parked cars, drivers tend to pass closely enough to push you into them. If you ride out from the parked cars, drivers don't pass, though there is in effect a spare lane-width (nothing marked on the road) but that some press their horns. Ladies among my pedal pals ride on the sidewalk to avoid the hassle.
My test was intended to prove only that drivers who can see how close a bicycle is to damaging the expensive paintwork on their cars will give a cyclist more space. This is something I prove daily in the narrow lanes outside town by going to the driver side of the lane and watching how much more space drivers give me than when they pass me with the passenger side of their cars. But this piece of road allowed for quick iteration (return via the quay in the other side of the road, 9-12 tests per hour) under controlled circumstances.
The test consisted of alternating rides on the "correct" passenger side of the drivers and on the "wrong" driver side near the green strip. In all tests I was dressed in a safety yellow cycling jacket with plenty of reflective, and all the lamps on my bike were lit (good strong blinkies fore and aft, best quality BUMM lamps front and rear), as well as reflectors front and rear. All test in daylight with sunshine.
The findings were:
1. Further proof of what we knew already, that in the correct position on the passenger side of cars, drivers would give a cyclist less space, sometimes to pushing him towards the parked cars. The test was done in the summer; most cars had open sunroofs; it was several times necessary to shout out, "Watch what you're doing, you moron." An amazing number left me clearly much less space than the legally mandated minimum distance of 1.5 meters for passing a cyclist. This despite there being plenty of space to the other side of the car which the driver could plainly see. I wrote on my tallysheet: "They're not even malicious, they're just careless and incompetent."
2. Riding on the green barrier side, next to the driver, the first observation was how many of the drivers would stay behind and not pass, despite there being plenty of space for their cars between my bicycle and the parked cars. Those who did pass gave me much more space than those who couldn't see how far they were from me. None pushed me into kerb of the green border (they might have towards the end where the road narrows, but there I always took the lane as I do normally in situations I judge dangerous -- to do otherwise would have skewed the test).
3. I concluded that drivers who can see how close a bicycle is to doing expensive damage to their car's paint- and panel-work gives the cyclist more space out of simple self-interest.
4. It is also my opinion, though my test doesn't necessarily prove it, that those who came too close when I rode on their passenger side, and the people in Ian Walkers much larger test who Franki-boy concludes, very likely correctly, reacted maliciously to attempts to deceive them, all have an unrealistically overwrought sense of their own driving ability. (That is true of course of the majority of drivers, and near enough of 100% of those who cause accidents.)
5. None of this is intended to contradict Jeff Liebermann's thesis that many drivers just don't see cyclists. The two ideas are easily reconciled by confirmation bias: people see what they expect to see, and their expectation is conditioned by their experience. If they have long experience of cyclists not being a danger to their limbs, lives and property, they expect cyclists not to be a danger to them in future, and stop seeing them. I have no problem believing in all three ideas: economic drives, invisible cyclists, and losers, and in all their interactions too.
Andre Jute
Now you're getting something right, for the second time in your life, Franki-boy. Nice work in Ohio and posting the Guardian piece, Krygowski. Credit where it is due, even to you.
John B.
22.3.2017, во 22:49:0622.3.17
до
Riding in Thailand and Indonesia I can't remember ever being passed
close enough to make me feel uncomfortable. But from what I read here
it appears common in the U.S. and Canada.
I read the claims here of heavy traffic but I ride in Bangkok which is
rated the second densest traffic in the world while the worst in the
U.S. seems to be L.A. which is 10th in the world.
I read about the need for special bicycle laws there but here there
are no specific laws to protect the bicyclist, as in most U.S. states
a bicycle is considered a vehicle and thus has a right to use the
roads but slower traffic, i.e., bicycles, are expected to stay on the
side of the road so as to not impede faster traffic.
Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.
The deliberate murder rate is the same for the U.S. and Thailand, both
3.9/100,000, the Crime Index is similar with Thailand - rated 49.78
and U.S. a bit better at 48.76.
Yet I do not feel endangered riding on the roads here. Quite the
opposite. People sometimes wave or give me a "thumbs-up" (see the old
geezer riding a bicycle).
Why is here so different from (what read) there?
--
Cheers,
John B.
Frank Krygowski
22.3.2017, во 23:34:1122.3.17
до
Second, I'm on record as saying I have very few problems from motorists.
There are occasions when I'm passed closer than I'd like, but they are
rare.
I suspect that people who always ride as far right as possible may get
passed more closely. I certainly hear more complaints from them; and
most cyclists who have learned to ride more prominently remark that it
does reduce close passes.
But I admit, it's possible such things vary from culture to culture.
As an example, I did some riding in Estonia (mostly Tallinn), and felt
that motorists were more aggressive than in the U.S. In several other
countries (e.g. France, Italy, Ireland) I thought they were more patient
than here.
But who knows? Attitudes probably vary for lots of reason - good or bad
days at work, whose football team has won or lost, how cloudy the day, etc.
--
- Frank Krygowski
John B.
23.3.2017, во 01:56:0423.3.17
до
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:33:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski
Yes, I was thinking of listing countries, i.e., The U.S., Canada,
England, Scotland, Wales, North Ireland, etc., and decided to trim the
length a bit and posted just N. Americans.
>Second, I'm on record as saying I have very few problems from motorists.
> There are occasions when I'm passed closer than I'd like, but they are
>rare.
But you are somewhat of an anomaly here. Old Goat riding a bicycle and
can't even understand how dangerious it is? Must be senile!
:-)
>I suspect that people who always ride as far right as possible may get
>passed more closely. I certainly hear more complaints from them; and
>most cyclists who have learned to ride more prominently remark that it
>does reduce close passes.
Possibly and certainly it depends a great deal on the roadway itself.
A narrow 2 lane road where the autos are driving 100 Kph and faster is
a far different thing from a wide 6 lane highway with a bus/breakdown
lane.
>But I admit, it's possible such things vary from culture to culture.
>As an example, I did some riding in Estonia (mostly Tallinn), and felt
>that motorists were more aggressive than in the U.S. In several other
>countries (e.g. France, Italy, Ireland) I thought they were more patient
>than here.
>
Who knows.
In both Thailand and Indonesia I can't remember ever being harassed by
an automobile. Singapore is very law abiding and will give a bicycle
exactly what the law demands, and not an inch more. Which typifies the
countries.
If a number of people are queuing for a taxi for example. In both
Thailand and Indonesia it will be a sort of huddle with everyone
thinking about how to crowd in and be next. In Singapore it will be a
neat and orderly line and woe betide anyone that tries to crowd into
the middle of the line :-)
>But who knows? Attitudes probably vary for lots of reason - good or bad
>days at work, whose football team has won or lost, how cloudy the day, etc.
I wonder what she'll be cooking for supper ?
--
Cheers,
John B.
England, Scotland, Wales, North Ireland, etc., and decided to trim the
length a bit and posted just N. Americans.
>Second, I'm on record as saying I have very few problems from motorists.
> There are occasions when I'm passed closer than I'd like, but they are
>rare.
can't even understand how dangerious it is? Must be senile!
:-)
>I suspect that people who always ride as far right as possible may get
>passed more closely. I certainly hear more complaints from them; and
>most cyclists who have learned to ride more prominently remark that it
>does reduce close passes.
A narrow 2 lane road where the autos are driving 100 Kph and faster is
a far different thing from a wide 6 lane highway with a bus/breakdown
lane.
>But I admit, it's possible such things vary from culture to culture.
>As an example, I did some riding in Estonia (mostly Tallinn), and felt
>that motorists were more aggressive than in the U.S. In several other
>countries (e.g. France, Italy, Ireland) I thought they were more patient
>than here.
>
In both Thailand and Indonesia I can't remember ever being harassed by
an automobile. Singapore is very law abiding and will give a bicycle
exactly what the law demands, and not an inch more. Which typifies the
countries.
If a number of people are queuing for a taxi for example. In both
Thailand and Indonesia it will be a sort of huddle with everyone
thinking about how to crowd in and be next. In Singapore it will be a
neat and orderly line and woe betide anyone that tries to crowd into
the middle of the line :-)
>But who knows? Attitudes probably vary for lots of reason - good or bad
>days at work, whose football team has won or lost, how cloudy the day, etc.
--
Cheers,
John B.
Frank Krygowski
23.3.2017, во 12:29:5123.3.17
до
On 3/23/2017 1:55 AM, John B. wrote:
husband on a business trip / vacation to Europe. They visited Germany
and Italy.
She returned disappointed in Italy. As an example, she said in Germany,
people waiting for a bus queued up politely and entered the bus in
order. In Italy, they crowded around the bus stop and shoved their way
aboard.
I've heard of other cultural differences from friends traveling to other
countries, as well. I suppose it pays to observe and try to blend in.
--
- Frank Krygowski
> On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:33:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>> But I admit, it's possible such things vary from culture to culture.
>> As an example, I did some riding in Estonia (mostly Tallinn), and felt
>> that motorists were more aggressive than in the U.S. In several other
>> countries (e.g. France, Italy, Ireland) I thought they were more patient
>> than here.
>>
>
> Who knows.
>
> In both Thailand and Indonesia I can't remember ever being harassed by
> an automobile. Singapore is very law abiding and will give a bicycle
> exactly what the law demands, and not an inch more. Which typifies the
> countries.
>
> If a number of people are queuing for a taxi for example. In both
> Thailand and Indonesia it will be a sort of huddle with everyone
> thinking about how to crowd in and be next. In Singapore it will be a
> neat and orderly line and woe betide anyone that tries to crowd into
> the middle of the line :-)
One friend of ours, of Italian heritage, was excited to accompany her
>
>> But I admit, it's possible such things vary from culture to culture.
>> As an example, I did some riding in Estonia (mostly Tallinn), and felt
>> that motorists were more aggressive than in the U.S. In several other
>> countries (e.g. France, Italy, Ireland) I thought they were more patient
>> than here.
>>
>
> Who knows.
>
> In both Thailand and Indonesia I can't remember ever being harassed by
> an automobile. Singapore is very law abiding and will give a bicycle
> exactly what the law demands, and not an inch more. Which typifies the
> countries.
>
> If a number of people are queuing for a taxi for example. In both
> Thailand and Indonesia it will be a sort of huddle with everyone
> thinking about how to crowd in and be next. In Singapore it will be a
> neat and orderly line and woe betide anyone that tries to crowd into
> the middle of the line :-)
husband on a business trip / vacation to Europe. They visited Germany
and Italy.
She returned disappointed in Italy. As an example, she said in Germany,
people waiting for a bus queued up politely and entered the bus in
order. In Italy, they crowded around the bus stop and shoved their way
aboard.
I've heard of other cultural differences from friends traveling to other
countries, as well. I suppose it pays to observe and try to blend in.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Doc O'Leary
23.3.2017, во 13:01:0323.3.17
до
For your reference, records indicate that
I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.
There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?
I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
it happened because the driver is a jerk. Maybe they’re a safe driver
that simply has an excellent sense of their vehicle’s space. Maybe
they see that I am biking fast and straight, and think it’ll be
perfectly safe to go past me without much clearance. And, as
unnerving as it is, it *has* been safe 100% of the times it’s been
done to me (with just 1 time being so close my leg was brushed by
their side mirror, so I had to give them an earful, but no real harm
done).
--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly
I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.
There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?
I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
it happened because the driver is a jerk. Maybe they’re a safe driver
that simply has an excellent sense of their vehicle’s space. Maybe
they see that I am biking fast and straight, and think it’ll be
perfectly safe to go past me without much clearance. And, as
unnerving as it is, it *has* been safe 100% of the times it’s been
done to me (with just 1 time being so close my leg was brushed by
their side mirror, so I had to give them an earful, but no real harm
done).
--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly
John B.
23.3.2017, во 22:00:4523.3.17
до
On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 16:58:04 -0000 (UTC), Doc O'Leary
notice differences among different countries as I remarked in another
post with the anecdote about the taxi queues. But also equally true is
that the more "laid back" countries usually had higher bicycle use
than the more regimented countries.
>
>I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
>it happened because the driver is a jerk. Maybe they’re a safe driver
>that simply has an excellent sense of their vehicle’s space. Maybe
>they see that I am biking fast and straight, and think it’ll be
>perfectly safe to go past me without much clearance. And, as
>unnerving as it is, it *has* been safe 100% of the times it’s been
>done to me (with just 1 time being so close my leg was brushed by
>their side mirror, so I had to give them an earful, but no real harm
>done).
I'm a bit curious what sort of bike you are riding where "my leg was
brushed by their side mirror"? My wife's small Honda's side mirrors
are about 40 inches above the road :-)
But as for close passes, frankly I can't remember ever being passed on
the highway close enough to frighten me, which is my personal
interpretation of a "close pass". On the other hand it is not
uncommon, at a stop light, to have a bus that is planning on making a
turn at the intersection to creep up beside me well within an arm's
reach. But in those cases the drive quite obviously sees me and even
sometimes stops and waits for me to wave him past.
--
Cheers,
John B.
<drol...@2017usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>For your reference, records indicate that
>John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.
>
>I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.
>There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
>in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
>much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
>are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
>actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?
Actually I was being a bit provocative :-) But equally true I do
>For your reference, records indicate that
>John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.
>
>I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.
>There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
>in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
>much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
>are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
>actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?
notice differences among different countries as I remarked in another
post with the anecdote about the taxi queues. But also equally true is
that the more "laid back" countries usually had higher bicycle use
than the more regimented countries.
>
>I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
>it happened because the driver is a jerk. Maybe they’re a safe driver
>that simply has an excellent sense of their vehicle’s space. Maybe
>they see that I am biking fast and straight, and think it’ll be
>perfectly safe to go past me without much clearance. And, as
>unnerving as it is, it *has* been safe 100% of the times it’s been
>done to me (with just 1 time being so close my leg was brushed by
>their side mirror, so I had to give them an earful, but no real harm
>done).
brushed by their side mirror"? My wife's small Honda's side mirrors
are about 40 inches above the road :-)
But as for close passes, frankly I can't remember ever being passed on
the highway close enough to frighten me, which is my personal
interpretation of a "close pass". On the other hand it is not
uncommon, at a stop light, to have a bus that is planning on making a
turn at the intersection to creep up beside me well within an arm's
reach. But in those cases the drive quite obviously sees me and even
sometimes stops and waits for me to wave him past.
--
Cheers,
John B.
Doc O'Leary
24.3.2017, во 14:43:3724.3.17
до
For your reference, records indicate that
John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm a bit curious what sort of bike you are riding where "my leg was
> brushed by their side mirror"? My wife's small Honda's side mirrors
> are about 40 inches above the road :-)
Usually some standard type of 58 cm. The seat itself is about 40" off
John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm a bit curious what sort of bike you are riding where "my leg was
> brushed by their side mirror"? My wife's small Honda's side mirrors
> are about 40 inches above the road :-)
the ground, putting my legs at +/- 3" of that normally, or up to ~48"
if I’m standing on the pedals. As I recall it, the guy was in some
sort of sports car, so it’s quite possible the mirrors were even lower
than that Honda.
Doug Landau
24.3.2017, во 15:07:4524.3.17
до
> But as for close passes, frankly I can't remember ever being passed on
> the highway close enough to frighten me, which is my personal
> interpretation of a "close pass".
Joerg
24.3.2017, во 16:15:5624.3.17
до
On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.
>
> I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.
True, but I still think John has got a point. I have met a lot of Thai
> For your reference, records indicate that
> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.
>
> I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.
people and others from Southeast Asia in my life and the only time I
have experienced anyone being really angry was inside their spousal
relationship (but not worse than happens at times in any such relationship).
> There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
> in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
> much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
> are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
> actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?
>
> I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
> it happened because the driver is a jerk.
gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
even have a driver license.
> ... Maybe they’re a safe driver
> that simply has an excellent sense of their vehicle’s space. Maybe
> they see that I am biking fast and straight, and think it’ll be
> perfectly safe to go past me without much clearance.
Only to cause the cyclist to be destabilized a bit by the vortex effect
> they see that I am biking fast and straight, and think it’ll be
> perfectly safe to go past me without much clearance.
and being hit by the next car? Such behavior is stupid and dangerous.
> ... And, as
> unnerving as it is, it *has* been safe 100% of the times it’s been
> done to me (with just 1 time being so close my leg was brushed by
> their side mirror, so I had to give them an earful, but no real harm
> done).
>
I have testified as a witness in court in a case where a cyclist was
> done to me (with just 1 time being so close my leg was brushed by
> their side mirror, so I had to give them an earful, but no real harm
> done).
>
brutally pushed off the road and crashed into the ditch. Guess what, the
trucker got a slap on the wrist. Nada, nothing else. Justice? Phhht.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Joerg
24.3.2017, во 16:43:4224.3.17
до
(anyone remember those?) rings and the operator asks for another 75
cents. "Well, the caller accidentally hung up too early and still owed
that amount" ... "What if he'd not pay and walk away?" ... "That just
does not happen, nobody would do that" ... "WHAT?"
John B.
24.3.2017, во 21:23:2624.3.17
до
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
>On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
>> For your reference, records indicate that
>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.
>>
>> I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.
>
>
>True, but I still think John has got a point. I have met a lot of Thai
>people and others from Southeast Asia in my life and the only time I
>have experienced anyone being really angry was inside their spousal
>relationship (but not worse than happens at times in any such relationship).
>
I'm not sure that including the bit about "spousal relationships" is
really confidence building as Thai doctors are the most skillful in
the world at penial reattachments?
>> There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
>> in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
>> much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
>> are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
>> actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?
>>
>> I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
>> it happened because the driver is a jerk.
>
>
>Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
>gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
>"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
>just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
>even have a driver license.
>
But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?
>> ... Maybe they’re a safe driver
>> that simply has an excellent sense of their vehicle’s space. Maybe
>> they see that I am biking fast and straight, and think it’ll be
>> perfectly safe to go past me without much clearance.
>
>
>Only to cause the cyclist to be destabilized a bit by the vortex effect
>and being hit by the next car? Such behavior is stupid and dangerous.
>
>
>> ... And, as
>> unnerving as it is, it *has* been safe 100% of the times it’s been
>> done to me (with just 1 time being so close my leg was brushed by
>> their side mirror, so I had to give them an earful, but no real harm
>> done).
>>
>
>I have testified as a witness in court in a case where a cyclist was
>brutally pushed off the road and crashed into the ditch. Guess what, the
>trucker got a slap on the wrist. Nada, nothing else. Justice? Phhht.
--
Cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
>> For your reference, records indicate that
>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.
>>
>> I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.
>
>
>True, but I still think John has got a point. I have met a lot of Thai
>people and others from Southeast Asia in my life and the only time I
>have experienced anyone being really angry was inside their spousal
>relationship (but not worse than happens at times in any such relationship).
>
really confidence building as Thai doctors are the most skillful in
the world at penial reattachments?
>> There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
>> in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
>> much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
>> are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
>> actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?
>>
>> I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
>> it happened because the driver is a jerk.
>
>
>Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
>gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
>"his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
>just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
>even have a driver license.
>
>> ... Maybe they’re a safe driver
>> that simply has an excellent sense of their vehicle’s space. Maybe
>> they see that I am biking fast and straight, and think it’ll be
>> perfectly safe to go past me without much clearance.
>
>
>Only to cause the cyclist to be destabilized a bit by the vortex effect
>and being hit by the next car? Such behavior is stupid and dangerous.
>
>
>> ... And, as
>> unnerving as it is, it *has* been safe 100% of the times it’s been
>> done to me (with just 1 time being so close my leg was brushed by
>> their side mirror, so I had to give them an earful, but no real harm
>> done).
>>
>
>I have testified as a witness in court in a case where a cyclist was
>brutally pushed off the road and crashed into the ditch. Guess what, the
>trucker got a slap on the wrist. Nada, nothing else. Justice? Phhht.
--
John B.
Frank Krygowski
25.3.2017, во 00:01:0425.3.17
до
On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
>> "his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
>> just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
>> even have a driver license.
>>
> But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?
No.
>> "his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
>> just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
>> even have a driver license.
>>
> But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?
I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
about 10 mph.
I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.
--
- Frank Krygowski
John B.
25.3.2017, во 01:28:1525.3.17
до
As an aside, I rather resent the inference that those driving pickup
trucks are low lifes. After all, I drive a pickup, my sister-in-law,
who is a small rice trader, drives a pickup. In fact I know a rather
large number of people who drive pickups, the majority of whom are
probably under the impression that they are just normal folks.
--
Cheers,
John B.
cycl...@gmail.com
25.3.2017, во 10:25:1725.3.17
до
cycl...@gmail.com
25.3.2017, во 10:27:3325.3.17
до
Frank Krygowski
25.3.2017, во 13:32:1325.3.17
до
On 3/25/2017 1:28 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 00:01:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
>>>> gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
>>>> "his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
>>>> just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
>>>> even have a driver license.
>>>>
>>> But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
>> driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
>> us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
>> about 10 mph.
>>
>> I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
>> lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.
>
> But was it "your road"?
The road is not a possession of any individual. It's a facility
> On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 00:01:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
>>>> gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
>>>> "his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
>>>> just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
>>>> even have a driver license.
>>>>
>>> But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
>> driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
>> us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
>> about 10 mph.
>>
>> I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
>> lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.
>
> But was it "your road"?
available to serve the public.
And come to think of it, in his analysis of the foundation principles of
traffic law, John Forester listed this principle: "First come, first
served." That is, any legal road user is allowed safe access to the
roadway for a reasonable distance in front of him. He doesn't lose that
access if someone else would prefer otherwise. The faster motorist
behind (or in my example, the obnoxious motorist who could not move any
faster than we were) cannot clear the road in front of him by demand.
>
> As an aside, I rather resent the inference that those driving pickup
> trucks are low lifes. After all, I drive a pickup, my sister-in-law,
> who is a small rice trader, drives a pickup. In fact I know a rather
> large number of people who drive pickups, the majority of whom are
> probably under the impression that they are just normal folks.
pickup truck. In stating that, I made no claim that all pickup drivers
are low-lifes.
This evening I'll be off doing volunteer skilled work at a charity event
with two of my very best friends. They both drive pickup trucks.
--
- Frank Krygowski
cl...@snyder.on.ca
25.3.2017, во 14:16:5225.3.17
до
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 13:32:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
Now all the "multi-tattoo'd" guys are going to complain they are
characterized as low-lifes???
characterized as low-lifes???
Ralph Barone
25.3.2017, во 14:34:5225.3.17
до
rational vehicle choice for them (they need to haul a bunch of stuff from
here to there). There are also people who drive pickup trucks as a
lifestyle choice (because they aspire to the redneck lifestyle and want to
drive a big loud threatening vehicle). The second group is more likely to
cause trouble for cyclists.
Doc O'Leary
25.3.2017, во 15:09:5425.3.17
до
For your reference, records indicate that
Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> >
> > I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
> > it happened because the driver is a jerk.
>
>
> Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
> gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
> "his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
> just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
> even have a driver license.
Totally a different class of behavior than that of basic visibility
> On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> >
> > I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
> > it happened because the driver is a jerk.
>
>
> Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
> gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
> "his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
> just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
> even have a driver license.
and safe distance. Someone threatening you with their vehicle is
not simply “jerk” behavior. It is assault with a deadly weapon.
Perhaps even attempted murder. That is something that needs to be
escalated each and every time it happens. Get their license plate
and file a report with the police.
> > ... Maybe they’re a safe driver
> > that simply has an excellent sense of their vehicle’s space. Maybe
> > they see that I am biking fast and straight, and think it’ll be
> > perfectly safe to go past me without much clearance.
>
>
> Only to cause the cyclist to be destabilized a bit by the vortex effect
> and being hit by the next car? Such behavior is stupid and dangerous.
who does it. If they don’t do a lot of biking it traffic, they simply
might not know what it is like to be on the receiving end of that kind
of behavior.
> I have testified as a witness in court in a case where a cyclist was
> brutally pushed off the road and crashed into the ditch. Guess what, the
> trucker got a slap on the wrist. Nada, nothing else. Justice? Phhht.
when the system fails people? If that’s the answer, then civilization
is hanging by a very thin thread.
Can’t for the life of my figure out what this has to do with .tech at
this point, so I’m going to loop in .misc and hope the thread migrates
there . . .
Joerg
25.3.2017, во 15:37:1525.3.17
до
On 2017-03-24 18:23, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.
>>>
>>> I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.
>>
>>
>> True, but I still think John has got a point. I have met a lot of Thai
>> people and others from Southeast Asia in my life and the only time I
>> have experienced anyone being really angry was inside their spousal
>> relationship (but not worse than happens at times in any such relationship).
>>
>
> I'm not sure that including the bit about "spousal relationships" is
> really confidence building as Thai doctors are the most skillful in
> the world at penial reattachments?
>
Ouch, I didn't know it could go that far.
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.
>>>
>>> I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.
>>
>>
>> True, but I still think John has got a point. I have met a lot of Thai
>> people and others from Southeast Asia in my life and the only time I
>> have experienced anyone being really angry was inside their spousal
>> relationship (but not worse than happens at times in any such relationship).
>>
>
> I'm not sure that including the bit about "spousal relationships" is
> really confidence building as Thai doctors are the most skillful in
> the world at penial reattachments?
>
>>> There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
>>> in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
>>> much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
>>> are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
>>> actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?
>>>
>>> I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
>>> it happened because the driver is a jerk.
>>
>>
>> Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
>> gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
>> "his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
>> just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
>> even have a driver license.
>>
> But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?
>
to do so. In this case he alread was in the fast lane and could have
just blown by, I was in the slow lane. He switched lanes, raced up
really close to me, leaned on the horn and then pushed me over to the
side by coming really close with the right front fender. One of those
road rage knuckleheads. It's usually best not to p... them off any more
because you might not have the front teeth anymore afterwards. They are
often people with lots of bar fight muscle but a peanut brain. Just
low-lifes.
[...]
Joerg
25.3.2017, во 15:39:5925.3.17
до
On 2017-03-25 12:06, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>>
>>> I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
>>> it happened because the driver is a jerk.
>>
>>
>> Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
>> gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
>> "his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
>> just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
>> even have a driver license.
>
> Totally a different class of behavior than that of basic visibility
> and safe distance. Someone threatening you with their vehicle is
> not simply “jerk” behavior. It is assault with a deadly weapon.
> Perhaps even attempted murder. That is something that needs to be
> escalated each and every time it happens. Get their license plate
> and file a report with the police.
>
Makes no difference whatsoever. Plus no witness on my side.
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>>
>>> I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
>>> it happened because the driver is a jerk.
>>
>>
>> Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
>> gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
>> "his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
>> just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
>> even have a driver license.
>
> Totally a different class of behavior than that of basic visibility
> and safe distance. Someone threatening you with their vehicle is
> not simply “jerk” behavior. It is assault with a deadly weapon.
> Perhaps even attempted murder. That is something that needs to be
> escalated each and every time it happens. Get their license plate
> and file a report with the police.
>
>>> ... Maybe they’re a safe driver
>>> that simply has an excellent sense of their vehicle’s space. Maybe
>>> they see that I am biking fast and straight, and think it’ll be
>>> perfectly safe to go past me without much clearance.
>>
>>
>> Only to cause the cyclist to be destabilized a bit by the vortex effect
>> and being hit by the next car? Such behavior is stupid and dangerous.
>
> Yes, it is. But that doesn’t imply bad intent by the stupid person
> who does it. If they don’t do a lot of biking it traffic, they simply
> might not know what it is like to be on the receiving end of that kind
> of behavior.
>
>> I have testified as a witness in court in a case where a cyclist was
>> brutally pushed off the road and crashed into the ditch. Guess what, the
>> trucker got a slap on the wrist. Nada, nothing else. Justice? Phhht.
>
> What do you want to hear? That extrajudicial action is appropriate
> when the system fails people? If that’s the answer, then civilization
> is hanging by a very thin thread.
>
> Can’t for the life of my figure out what this has to do with .tech at
> this point, so I’m going to loop in .misc and hope the thread migrates
> there . . .
>
--
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
John B.
26.3.2017, во 00:28:1826.3.17
до
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 13:32:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>And come to think of it, in his analysis of the foundation principles of
>traffic law, John Forester listed this principle: "First come, first
>served." That is, any legal road user is allowed safe access to the
>roadway for a reasonable distance in front of him. He doesn't lose that
>access if someone else would prefer otherwise. The faster motorist
>behind (or in my example, the obnoxious motorist who could not move any
>faster than we were) cannot clear the road in front of him by demand.
Sorry about John but every state highway law that I have read, and
that isn't intended to mean I've read them all, has stated that "thou
shall not impede", usually in the form of something like "slower
traffic shall drive in such a manner as to not impede faster traffic".
I can't say that I've read that "a vehicle has the right to the road
for some specific distance ahead of them".
>>
>> As an aside, I rather resent the inference that those driving pickup
>> trucks are low lifes. After all, I drive a pickup, my sister-in-law,
>> who is a small rice trader, drives a pickup. In fact I know a rather
>> large number of people who drive pickups, the majority of whom are
>> probably under the impression that they are just normal folks.
>
>There was no such inference. This particular low-life was driving a
>pickup truck. In stating that, I made no claim that all pickup drivers
>are low-lifes.
No you didn't specifically state that people that drive pickups are
low life's.. What you said was "a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver" which does tend to make one think that you equate pickups and
low life's. Or is it only tattooed pickup drivers who are the
low-life's??
>
>This evening I'll be off doing volunteer skilled work at a charity event
>with two of my very best friends. They both drive pickup trucks.
--
Cheers,
John B.
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>On 3/25/2017 1:28 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 00:01:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
>>>>> gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
>>>>> "his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
>>>>> just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
>>>>> even have a driver license.
>>>>>
>>>> But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>> I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
>>> driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
>>> us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
>>> about 10 mph.
>>>
>>> I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
>>> lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.
>>
>> But was it "your road"?
>The road is not a possession of any individual. It's a facility
>available to serve the public.
Exactly.
>On 3/25/2017 1:28 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 00:01:00 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/24/2017 9:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sometimes they are [jerks]. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
>>>>> gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
>>>>> "his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
>>>>> just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
>>>>> even have a driver license.
>>>>>
>>>> But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>> I do remember, on one bike tour, having a low life multi-tattooed pickup
>>> driver yell at me "Get out of my road." Our offense (there were three of
>>> us riding together) was taking our place in a line of traffic moving at
>>> about 10 mph.
>>>
>>> I was not shy about telling him it was not "his" road. I think my, um,
>>> lack of diplomacy shocked one of my touring companions.
>>
>> But was it "your road"?
>The road is not a possession of any individual. It's a facility
>available to serve the public.
>And come to think of it, in his analysis of the foundation principles of
>traffic law, John Forester listed this principle: "First come, first
>served." That is, any legal road user is allowed safe access to the
>roadway for a reasonable distance in front of him. He doesn't lose that
>access if someone else would prefer otherwise. The faster motorist
>behind (or in my example, the obnoxious motorist who could not move any
>faster than we were) cannot clear the road in front of him by demand.
that isn't intended to mean I've read them all, has stated that "thou
shall not impede", usually in the form of something like "slower
traffic shall drive in such a manner as to not impede faster traffic".
I can't say that I've read that "a vehicle has the right to the road
for some specific distance ahead of them".
>>
>> As an aside, I rather resent the inference that those driving pickup
>> trucks are low lifes. After all, I drive a pickup, my sister-in-law,
>> who is a small rice trader, drives a pickup. In fact I know a rather
>> large number of people who drive pickups, the majority of whom are
>> probably under the impression that they are just normal folks.
>
>There was no such inference. This particular low-life was driving a
>pickup truck. In stating that, I made no claim that all pickup drivers
>are low-lifes.
low life's.. What you said was "a low life multi-tattooed pickup
driver" which does tend to make one think that you equate pickups and
low life's. Or is it only tattooed pickup drivers who are the
low-life's??
>
>This evening I'll be off doing volunteer skilled work at a charity event
>with two of my very best friends. They both drive pickup trucks.
--
John B.
John B.
26.3.2017, во 00:41:2426.3.17
до
limos, assuming price is no object?
I can't say that I have ever met any although I did meet some folks in
Shreveport, La. that had plenty of money. One chap was a lawyer. His
firm had one client, something called the "William J. Abbot Estate" or
some such name.
I can't say for his income but I do know that his son was attending
Harvard and not on any student loan basis. His Missus drove a Mercedes
and he had, among other cars, a pickup. But he also owned a VW Bug and
a 1909 Sears & Roebuck "Motor Buggy" as well as several others.
--
Cheers,
John B.
John B.
26.3.2017, во 01:02:0626.3.17
до
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 12:37:26 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
curtailed her husband (for want of a better word) and flung it out the
window where a duck grabbed it and ran off.
>
>>>> There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
>>>> in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
>>>> much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
>>>> are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
>>>> actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?
>>>>
>>>> I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
>>>> it happened because the driver is a jerk.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
>>> gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
>>> "his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
>>> just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
>>> even have a driver license.
>>>
>> But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?
>>
>
>Sure. However, he has to yield to a slower vehicle and pass it when safe
>to do so. In this case he alread was in the fast lane and could have
>just blown by, I was in the slow lane. He switched lanes, raced up
>really close to me, leaned on the horn and then pushed me over to the
>side by coming really close with the right front fender. One of those
>road rage knuckleheads. It's usually best not to p... them off any more
>because you might not have the front teeth anymore afterwards. They are
>often people with lots of bar fight muscle but a peanut brain. Just
>low-lifes.
>
Actually what the California Vehicle Code says is
"21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any
vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be
driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable
to the right-hand edge or curb except when overtaking and passing
another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing
for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or
driveway.
(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is
not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as
practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima
facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation
of subdivision (a) of this section."
Nothing what so ever about yielding to slower drivers, but more the
" or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb" mentioned
in both paragraph (a) and (b).
--
Cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>On 2017-03-24 18:23, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.
>>>>
>>>> I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.
>>>
>>>
>>> True, but I still think John has got a point. I have met a lot of Thai
>>> people and others from Southeast Asia in my life and the only time I
>>> have experienced anyone being really angry was inside their spousal
>>> relationship (but not worse than happens at times in any such relationship).
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure that including the bit about "spousal relationships" is
>> really confidence building as Thai doctors are the most skillful in
>> the world at penial reattachments?
>>
>
>Ouch, I didn't know it could go that far.
>
Actually the case that got the most attention was the lady that
>On 2017-03-24 18:23, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Are Thai's just nicer people than N. Americans? I wonder.
>>>>
>>>> I think it’s a mistake to attribute it to moral character prematurely.
>>>
>>>
>>> True, but I still think John has got a point. I have met a lot of Thai
>>> people and others from Southeast Asia in my life and the only time I
>>> have experienced anyone being really angry was inside their spousal
>>> relationship (but not worse than happens at times in any such relationship).
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure that including the bit about "spousal relationships" is
>> really confidence building as Thai doctors are the most skillful in
>> the world at penial reattachments?
>>
>
>Ouch, I didn't know it could go that far.
>
curtailed her husband (for want of a better word) and flung it out the
window where a duck grabbed it and ran off.
>
>>>> There are all sorts of other factors that might produce the difference
>>>> in behavior. How much driving is done by the general population? How
>>>> much biking? How wide are the roads compared to the vehicles? What
>>>> are the speed differences between the different vehicles? Is the
>>>> actual accident rate higher, or is it more a perception of danger?
>>>>
>>>> I dislike a close pass as much as anyone, but I’m not going to assume
>>>> it happened because the driver is a jerk.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sometimes they are. Like a week ago when the guy leaned on the horn and
>>> gradually pushed me to the side of the road as punishment for taking
>>> "his" lane. He had even pulled into that lane from the other (fast) lane
>>> just to show me who is boss. Yes, those are jerks. Jerks who should not
>>> even have a driver license.
>>>
>> But after all, wasn't it "His lane too"?
>>
>
>Sure. However, he has to yield to a slower vehicle and pass it when safe
>to do so. In this case he alread was in the fast lane and could have
>just blown by, I was in the slow lane. He switched lanes, raced up
>really close to me, leaned on the horn and then pushed me over to the
>side by coming really close with the right front fender. One of those
>road rage knuckleheads. It's usually best not to p... them off any more
>because you might not have the front teeth anymore afterwards. They are
>often people with lots of bar fight muscle but a peanut brain. Just
>low-lifes.
>
"21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any
vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be
driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable
to the right-hand edge or curb except when overtaking and passing
another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing
for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or
driveway.
(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is
not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as
practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima
facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation
of subdivision (a) of this section."
Nothing what so ever about yielding to slower drivers, but more the
" or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb" mentioned
in both paragraph (a) and (b).
--
Cheers,
John B.
Doc O'Leary
26.3.2017, во 10:54:1926.3.17
до
For your reference, records indicate that
Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> On 2017-03-25 12:06, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> >
> > Totally a different class of behavior than that of basic visibility
> > and safe distance. Someone threatening you with their vehicle is
> > not simply “jerk” behavior. It is assault with a deadly weapon.
> > Perhaps even attempted murder. That is something that needs to be
> > escalated each and every time it happens. Get their license plate
> > and file a report with the police.
> >
>
> Makes no difference whatsoever. Plus no witness on my side.
Doesn’t matter. Unless you made the whole damn thing up, *someone
Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> On 2017-03-25 12:06, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> >
> > Totally a different class of behavior than that of basic visibility
> > and safe distance. Someone threatening you with their vehicle is
> > not simply “jerk” behavior. It is assault with a deadly weapon.
> > Perhaps even attempted murder. That is something that needs to be
> > escalated each and every time it happens. Get their license plate
> > and file a report with the police.
> >
>
> Makes no difference whatsoever. Plus no witness on my side.
endangered your life*. That’s something that needs to be escalated.
Police reports allow for further actions, especially if the person in
question is a repeat offender. It is foolish to wait until that guy
kills someone (and then gets a slap on the wrist because it’s his
first offense on record) before anything gets done.
Here’s another radical idea: if you really live in such an awful
neighborhood, start recording your rides. In addition to filing
police reports with that evidence, post it online so that the world
forever knows who these assholes are.
> However, there is a 3ft legal requirement and a driver must obey laws.
they want and it “makes no difference”.
Frank Krygowski
26.3.2017, во 11:34:2026.3.17
до
was not the text of the laws. It was the foundation rationality behind
the laws. I suggest reading _Effective Cycling_ for details.
And yes, the laws assume a vehicle _operator_ (as opposed to a vehicle)
has a right to safe access to the road for a reasonable distance in
front. That's why there are laws forbidding pulling out of a side
street directly in front of someone; or pulling back into someone's lane
too soon after passing.
>>> As an aside, I rather resent the inference that those driving pickup
>>> trucks are low lifes. After all, I drive a pickup, my sister-in-law,
>>> who is a small rice trader, drives a pickup. In fact I know a rather
>>> large number of people who drive pickups, the majority of whom are
>>> probably under the impression that they are just normal folks.
>>
>> There was no such inference. This particular low-life was driving a
>> pickup truck. In stating that, I made no claim that all pickup drivers
>> are low-lifes.
>
> No you didn't specifically state that people that drive pickups are
> low life's.. What you said was "a low life multi-tattooed pickup
> driver" which does tend to make one think that you equate pickups and
> low life's. Or is it only tattooed pickup drivers who are the
> low-life's??
stuck in the same 0 to 10mph queue as about 20 other motorists. Tattoos
and pickup were added to further describe the event. There were probably
other multi-tattooed pickup drivers in that line who were not low-lifes.
BTW, I didn't mention that low-life driver's passenger. She also had
multiple tattoos but was not driving. You may need to add foul-mouthed
pickup passengers to your list of people in your "protected class."
Further details? The passenger actually opened her door and stood on
the running board to more effectively yell at us and give obscene
gestures. A charming couple!
--
- Frank Krygowski
Joerg
26.3.2017, во 11:41:2426.3.17
до
On 2017-03-25 22:02, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 12:37:26 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-03-24 18:23, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
[...]
> On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 12:37:26 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-03-24 18:23, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 13:16:07 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2017-03-23 09:58, Doc O'Leary wrote:
more more, and were all in the fast lane. The he pulled right, gunned
the engine, passed the others on the right and slammed the brakes right
behind me while leaning on the horn. That's illegal out here.
> (b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal
> speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is
> not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as
> practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima
> facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation
> of subdivision (a) of this section."
>
> Nothing what so ever about yielding to slower drivers, but more the
> " or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb" mentioned
> in both paragraph (a) and (b).
slower. You must move into the fast lane if you want to pass it. As I
said this guy _was_ in the fast lane and pulled into the right lane only
to show me who is boss.
Frank Krygowski
26.3.2017, во 11:41:3226.3.17
до
On 3/26/2017 12:41 AM, John B. wrote:
stayed to nearly midnight to allow the class to finish their workcell
projects. One young man offered to give me a ride home, an offer I
accepted.
He put my bike into the back of his large, spotless and luxurious pickup
truck. While I can't remember many details (except an excellent sound
system, a surprisingly quiet ride and sort of "mood lighting" in the
passenger compartment), I remember being astonished that it was like
riding in a luxury car.
--
- Frank Krygowski
> On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 18:34:48 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone wrote:
>>
>> There are people who drive pickup trucks because pickup trucks are a
>> rational vehicle choice for them (they need to haul a bunch of stuff from
>> here to there). There are also people who drive pickup trucks as a
>> lifestyle choice (because they aspire to the redneck lifestyle and want to
>> drive a big loud threatening vehicle). The second group is more likely to
>> cause trouble for cyclists.
>
> Do people actually select pickup trucks as opposed to say Mercedes 600
> limos, assuming price is no object?
Many years ago, I was teaching a robotics lab. At semester's end, I had
>>
>> There are people who drive pickup trucks because pickup trucks are a
>> rational vehicle choice for them (they need to haul a bunch of stuff from
>> here to there). There are also people who drive pickup trucks as a
>> lifestyle choice (because they aspire to the redneck lifestyle and want to
>> drive a big loud threatening vehicle). The second group is more likely to
>> cause trouble for cyclists.
>
> Do people actually select pickup trucks as opposed to say Mercedes 600
> limos, assuming price is no object?
stayed to nearly midnight to allow the class to finish their workcell
projects. One young man offered to give me a ride home, an offer I
accepted.
He put my bike into the back of his large, spotless and luxurious pickup
truck. While I can't remember many details (except an excellent sound
system, a surprisingly quiet ride and sort of "mood lighting" in the
passenger compartment), I remember being astonished that it was like
riding in a luxury car.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Joerg
26.3.2017, во 11:43:4926.3.17
до
On 2017-03-26 07:51, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-03-25 12:06, Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>>
>>> Totally a different class of behavior than that of basic visibility
>>> and safe distance. Someone threatening you with their vehicle is
>>> not simply “jerk” behavior. It is assault with a deadly weapon.
>>> Perhaps even attempted murder. That is something that needs to be
>>> escalated each and every time it happens. Get their license plate
>>> and file a report with the police.
>>>
>>
>> Makes no difference whatsoever. Plus no witness on my side.
>
> Doesn’t matter. Unless you made the whole damn thing up, *someone
> endangered your life*. That’s something that needs to be escalated.
> Police reports allow for further actions, especially if the person in
> question is a repeat offender. It is foolish to wait until that guy
> kills someone (and then gets a slap on the wrist because it’s his
> first offense on record) before anything gets done.
>
They will not take any action. So what's the point?
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-03-25 12:06, Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>>
>>> Totally a different class of behavior than that of basic visibility
>>> and safe distance. Someone threatening you with their vehicle is
>>> not simply “jerk” behavior. It is assault with a deadly weapon.
>>> Perhaps even attempted murder. That is something that needs to be
>>> escalated each and every time it happens. Get their license plate
>>> and file a report with the police.
>>>
>>
>> Makes no difference whatsoever. Plus no witness on my side.
>
> Doesn’t matter. Unless you made the whole damn thing up, *someone
> endangered your life*. That’s something that needs to be escalated.
> Police reports allow for further actions, especially if the person in
> question is a repeat offender. It is foolish to wait until that guy
> kills someone (and then gets a slap on the wrist because it’s his
> first offense on record) before anything gets done.
>
> Here’s another radical idea: if you really live in such an awful
> neighborhood, start recording your rides. In addition to filing
> police reports with that evidence, post it online so that the world
> forever knows who these assholes are.
>
that won't be considered by police. They "don't have the time".
>> However, there is a 3ft legal requirement and a driver must obey laws.
>
> Make up your mind. Either they “must obey”, or they can do whatever
> they want and it “makes no difference”.
>
since it was published most drivers obey it. Way more than before. So, a
good law.
Andre Jute
26.3.2017, во 17:26:0326.3.17
до
On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 6:34:52 PM UTC, Ralph Barone wrote:
>
> There are also people who drive pickup trucks as a
> lifestyle choice (because they aspire to the redneck lifestyle and want to
> drive a big loud threatening vehicle).
A good start is to have more curtains in your truck than in your house. You can start with an official NRA curtain over your gun rack, so that the envious can't perve your rifles.
>
> There are also people who drive pickup trucks as a
> lifestyle choice (because they aspire to the redneck lifestyle and want to
> drive a big loud threatening vehicle).
Andre Jute
Loaded and cocked, not locked
John B.
26.3.2017, во 20:41:3326.3.17
до
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 11:34:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
To be frank, while I realize that Forester may well have written that
I can see no rational reasoning or precedence, for the claim.
After all, anyone can write anything and a certain portion of the
readers will believe it. Read, for example, the Christian bible,
specifically the 10 commandments. The various versions of the English
language translations can't even agree on the wording of the 10 laws
that God gave the Hebrews.
Well yes, I guess that "protected class" is a good term although I
believe it is usually pronounced "politically correct" in modern
America. If what I read is true, you even have laws protecting these
poor innocent minorities from public disdain. Or at least against
verbal or written disdain.
And, Goodness Gracious, here you are, a member of one minority group
bad-mouthing another minority group.
How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is .....
>Further details? The passenger actually opened her door and stood on
>the running board to more effectively yell at us and give obscene
>gestures. A charming couple!
--
Cheers,
John B.
I can see no rational reasoning or precedence, for the claim.
After all, anyone can write anything and a certain portion of the
readers will believe it. Read, for example, the Christian bible,
specifically the 10 commandments. The various versions of the English
language translations can't even agree on the wording of the 10 laws
that God gave the Hebrews.
believe it is usually pronounced "politically correct" in modern
America. If what I read is true, you even have laws protecting these
poor innocent minorities from public disdain. Or at least against
verbal or written disdain.
And, Goodness Gracious, here you are, a member of one minority group
bad-mouthing another minority group.
How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is .....
>Further details? The passenger actually opened her door and stood on
>the running board to more effectively yell at us and give obscene
>gestures. A charming couple!
--
John B.
Sir Ridesalot
26.3.2017, во 22:21:4926.3.17
до
Cheers
John B.
27.3.2017, во 01:46:5627.3.17
до
believe their own rhetoric. After all if bicycling is actually so
dangerious it would seem that one must either be either feeble minded
or have a death wish if one continues to use such a dangerious means
of transportation.
Or perhaps riding a bike, being so dangerious, proves how brave and
resolute one is. After all, one can no longer go out and joust with
dragons in this modern world. Perhaps riding a dangerious two wheel
conveyance is the only way left to prove how fearless and resolute one
is.
--
Cheers,
John B.
Doc O'Leary
27.3.2017, во 11:10:1427.3.17
до
For your reference, records indicate that
Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> They will not take any action. So what's the point?
The point is that a police report is evidence that can demonstrate a
Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> They will not take any action. So what's the point?
pattern of behavior. Evidence people can use against the bad guy in
the future. Maybe it’s to request a concealed carry permit. Maybe
it’s to get a restraining order. Maybe it’s to file a lawsuit
against the person, or the city for not taking action.
> A camera to the front, another to the side, another to the rear? Even
> that won't be considered by police. They "don't have the time".
the media. Name and shame.
At the very least!
Grow the fuck up and *act* when someone tries to kill you.
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