Speaking of Brakes

[cycl...@gmail.com]

What struck me as weird is that we have pro racers putting hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes in pro races. These things are incredibly powerful and can easily lock wheels especially in less than perfect traction conditions.

In the meantime Campagnolo Record skeleton brakes have reduced their power on the rear brakes by going from a double pivot to a single pivot rear brake mechanism.

Ummm, aren't we at odds here?

[Joerg]

On the rear not much brake force is needed, even in an emergency.

In the end it all depends on the total weight and how curvy downhill
sections are. With my MTB I can bomb down a winding road faster than on
the road bike because I can reach into the brakes before curves much
later. Especially when going behind the saddle for deceleration. There
is also no concern of the front brake cable failing. Which happened to
me once right before a hair pin curve and the outcome was not pretty.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[avag...@gmail.com]

J, ura moving slowly.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Rear gives directional stability... balance.

Pro costs or leftovers tho

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-05 12:06, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> J, ura moving slowly.
>

I think so, too, but that's not what some local riders tell me when I am
on my MTB.

[AMuzi]

Campagnolo also has road discs- the new Ergos can run
caliper or hydraulic disc.

Regarding calipers, Campagnolo single pivot rears are
lighter than DP yet sufficient to skid a rear wheel.
Sensible format IMHO.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 1:00:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/5/2017 1:49 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > What struck me as weird is that we have pro racers putting hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes in pro races. These things are incredibly powerful and can easily lock wheels especially in less than perfect traction conditions.
> >
> > In the meantime Campagnolo Record skeleton brakes have reduced their power on the rear brakes by going from a double pivot to a single pivot rear brake mechanism.
> >
> > Ummm, aren't we at odds here?
> >
>
> Campagnolo also has road discs- the new Ergos can run
> caliper or hydraulic disc.
>
> Regarding calipers, Campagnolo single pivot rears are
> lighter than DP yet sufficient to skid a rear wheel.
> Sensible format IMHO.

My Redline aluminum cross bike has hydraulic discs on it and I would MOST definitely not get them again. That bike probably weighs about the same as my Colnago Dream HP which is the lightest of the series at about 19 lbs. Crashing down a hill a brake as powerful as a disc is asking for trouble.

Caught out in downpours I never had the slightest problem with rim brakes and listening to people talking about going deeper into a turn before having to put the brakes on makes me wonder if they think that they are world class MTB racers.

[avag...@gmail.com]

M
We heard your description of a riding performance go no go once before... I forget what....some time ago...n had the idea you were moving slowly.

During my peak years 2 of us covered the county with the Pelton doing race work...15-20

My co rider was Hungarian pharmicist.

[John B.]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2017 15:00:35 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 8/5/2017 1:49 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> What struck me as weird is that we have pro racers putting hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes in pro races. These things are incredibly powerful and can easily lock wheels especially in less than perfect traction conditions.
>>
>> In the meantime Campagnolo Record skeleton brakes have reduced their power on the rear brakes by going from a double pivot to a single pivot rear brake mechanism.
>>
>> Ummm, aren't we at odds here?
>>
>
>Campagnolo also has road discs- the new Ergos can run
>caliper or hydraulic disc.
>
>Regarding calipers, Campagnolo single pivot rears are
>lighter than DP yet sufficient to skid a rear wheel.
>Sensible format IMHO.

Are single pivot brakes actual less powerful then dual pivot? I had
always assumed that the ratio of the length of the arms on the cable
side of the pivot and the brake pads end determined the "power" of a
brake. Although admittedly I never gave it much thought other then
single pivot brakes seemed more difficult to get "centered".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I read that TdeF riders and their ilk have been known to descend at
speeds of 100kph using rim brakes. I wonder whether if they had
Joerg's vaunted disks, would they be faster?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/5/2017 8:42 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> Are single pivot brakes actual less powerful then dual pivot? I had
> always assumed that the ratio of the length of the arms on the cable
> side of the pivot and the brake pads end determined the "power" of a
> brake. Although admittedly I never gave it much thought other then
> single pivot brakes seemed more difficult to get "centered".

Yes, dual pivot brakes have a higher mechanical advantage than single
pivot brakes. The difference is easily noticeable. As you'd expect,
they have less travel, so they can't clear an out of true rim as easily.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Everyone who has descended in the wet with rimbrakes and carbon rims know the answer.

Lou

[John B.]

I was wrong. They apparently not descending at 100 kph. It now seems
that speeds are a bit faster, 130kph.... (81 mph) with rim brakes.
http://tinyurl.com/ybnfoquu
--
Cheers,

John B.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

On a curvy descend in the wet with carbon rims? I don't think so.
My grandpa smoked his whole life and he reached an age of 85. That is possible, but people who smoke are still stupid, ignorant or weak.

Lou

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-05 15:25, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> M We heard your description of a riding performance go no go once
> before... I forget what....some time ago...n had the idea you were
> moving slowly.
>

I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about now.

> During my peak years 2 of us covered the county with the Pelton doing
> race work...15-20
>

15-20mph? That's not racing, that is considered a normal traveling speed
among road bikes out here, myself included, sans peloton. The serious
guys like the boss at a client company are cruising along well above
20mph. Last time we rode together he kept it around 25mph and after
20mins of this my tongue was almost on the handlebar, too much for me.

> My co rider was Hungarian pharmicist.
>

My last one was a chemist.

[jbeattie]

Those numbers are not believable unless you're descending a cinder cone or ski slope. If you're even getting close to 80mph, you're not turning or braking -- it's a dead straight, long run-out.

With that said, dual-pivots on aluminum rims or aluminum brake track rims are more than adequate. On CF rims, things are a little more complicated, and on wet roads, I prefer discs.

My road discs are not scary, except the price of replacement pads. They modulate well, and after ride two, I was aware of the stronger braking force -- particularly rear braking.

Do I need them? No, not in the sense that I wouldn't stop otherwise, but discs in the PNW save rims and make life better in all the rain. On a dry weather bike, I prefer the simplicity of dual-pivots.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-05 17:46, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Aug 2017 14:43:16 -0700 (PDT), cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 1:00:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 8/5/2017 1:49 PM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> What struck me as weird is that we have pro racers putting
>>>> hydraulic disc brakes on road bikes in pro races. These things
>>>> are incredibly powerful and can easily lock wheels especially
>>>> in less than perfect traction conditions.
>>>>
>>>> In the meantime Campagnolo Record skeleton brakes have reduced
>>>> their power on the rear brakes by going from a double pivot to
>>>> a single pivot rear brake mechanism.
>>>>
>>>> Ummm, aren't we at odds here?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Campagnolo also has road discs- the new Ergos can run caliper or
>>> hydraulic disc.
>>>
>>> Regarding calipers, Campagnolo single pivot rears are lighter
>>> than DP yet sufficient to skid a rear wheel. Sensible format
>>> IMHO.
>>
>> My Redline aluminum cross bike has hydraulic discs on it and I
>> would MOST definitely not get them again. That bike probably weighs
>> about the same as my Colnago Dream HP which is the lightest of the
>> series at about 19 lbs. Crashing down a hill a brake as powerful as
>> a disc is asking for trouble.
>>

Why? I can make the front wheel on my MTB stop abruptly with one or two
fingers. Unless done deliberately (which happens) this can easily result
in an OTB crash or a front wheel wipe-out.

The fix is simple: Don't do that.

>> Caught out in downpours I never had the slightest problem with rim
>> brakes and listening to people talking about going deeper into a
>> turn before having to put the brakes on makes me wonder if they
>> think that they are world class MTB racers.
>
> I read that TdeF riders and their ilk have been known to descend at
> speeds of 100kph using rim brakes. I wonder whether if they had
> Joerg's vaunted disks, would they be faster? -- Cheers,
>

They take a lot more risks than non-competition riders. Just look at
those finish phases where there are sometimes nasty mass crashes. Riding
at high speed just inches away from others, something I'd never do. TdF
riders also know that the medics will be there in seconds if they crash.
With us guys way out there on a lonely switchback road with no cell
coverage, different story.

Anyhow, with discs downhill sections can be ridden more aggressively
because they allow you to reach into the brakes later and decelerate
more abruptly before tight turns. Living in the hills I feel the
difference almost every time when I ride the MTB on streets. The MTB
corners poorly on asphalt but I can bomb towards the turn, go behind the
saddle and then reach in hard.

When it is raining the difference is huge. Rim brakes are no match at
all in the rain.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Dual pivot brakes have longer pivots on both sides. Single pivots have equal length and short pivots. The single pivot acts sooner but for any given pressure on the levers exerts less pressure on the shoes.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Yes, but it doesn't make a lot of difference since most of these brakes are limited by the seat stays anyway.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Jay - do you normally ride at such a speed that heavy braking with any sort of brake is necessary?

[AMuzi]

Yes.

If you look at a single pivot and a dual, noting ratio of
upper side to lower side, (pivot to anchor vs pivot to brake
shoe) it's obvious. Not dramatic but clearly different. And
DP are inherently heavier.

[Joerg]

The situation can instantly change when a deer decides to bolt across
the road right in front of you. Happened to me on nice straight and thus
fast singletrack at a spot where I could not steer it off trail. I was
sure glad I had disc brakes at that point. It was a young buck and he
didn't even turn around, he just kept running until he disappeared in
the distance.

> With that said, dual-pivots on aluminum rims or aluminum brake track
> rims are more than adequate. On CF rims, things are a little more
> complicated, and on wet roads, I prefer discs.
>
> My road discs are not scary, except the price of replacement pads.

What kind? I get mind for $2/pair if I take four pairs, the longer
lasting ones. Including shipping. Even the inexpensive Clarks pads for
the road bike rim brakes cost more, let alone KoolStop.

> They modulate well, and after ride two, I was aware of the stronger
> braking force -- particularly rear braking.
>
> Do I need them? No, not in the sense that I wouldn't stop otherwise,
> but discs in the PNW save rims and make life better in all the rain.
> On a dry weather bike, I prefer the simplicity of dual-pivots.
>

Ever since I rode the first bike with disc brakes I was sold, 100%. The
only reason for not having discs on my road bike is that the frame has
no mounts for them. If I ever need a new frame or road bike it will have
discs.

[Frank Krygowski]

That's what I've wondered. While I'm not as fast as I once was*, I don't
ride super-slow. I especially enjoy blasting down hills. But I almost
never have to brake hard. The very few times I recall having to do so,
my brakes (cantilevers on most of my bikes) did the job just fine.

I think an unrecognized factor is watching and planning ahead as you
ride. I've seen riders who seem to get surprised by every pothole, just
as I've seen motorists race up to a clot on the freeway and get stuck
behind a slow truck. The further ahead you observe, the smoother your
progress and the less you use your brakes.

And I'm talking about road riding here, mostly in dry weather. Yes, if I
were a year-round commuter in Portland area hills or a mountain biker
who loved mud, I'd probably want discs.

(*The older I get, the faster I was.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/6/2017 10:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> Anyhow, with discs downhill sections can be ridden more aggressively
> because they allow you to reach into the brakes later and decelerate
> more abruptly before tight turns. Living in the hills I feel the
> difference almost every time when I ride the MTB on streets. The MTB
> corners poorly on asphalt but I can bomb towards the turn, go behind the
> saddle and then reach in hard.

That behavior is what's known as "risk compensation."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Yes, and I admit it. But it's a fairly safe risk as long as you know
there's no sand or other stuff on the road surface. MTBs in general are
"risk compensation vehicles" because we ride through dirt much faster
than back in the days when normal bikes had to be used.

In a race this is different. There every second counts.

[Frank Krygowski]

My deer experience was with a fawn on a steep, shaded metropark
downhill. His siblings and mom stayed to the side, but this guy just
ran out right in front of my 30+mph bike. I was sure glad I had
cantilever brakes at that point. ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Frank, I have to brake hard before every hairpin in a descent, from 60-70 km/hr to 20-30 km/hr. I checked my data from my last week in the Dolomites a couple of weeks ago.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

Your terrain and your riding style are different from mine, and probably
from most cyclists. We have no mountains in my riding territory
(although some hills are surprisingly long and steep). The few times
I've ridden in mountains, I rode conservatively; I was touring, not racing.

I remember one descending one Rocky Mountain pass (Lolo Pass) with a
full camping load, where I worried a bit about overheating rims as I
braked to control my speed. I therefore descended a bit faster than I
otherwise might have. But my wife and daughter both descended much
slower and experienced no problems.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Heh??
Around my house the terrain is dead flat. Any flatter is not possible, so I hardly brake hard. But the same bike is used in the mountains, a day ride by car away.

Lou

[Sir Ridesalot]

I have CANTILEVER BRAKES on my touring bike and also on my MTBs. Funny thing is that on a dirt or gravel road I can LOCK UP THE WHEELS with JUST TWO FINGERS on the DROP-BAR brake levers. Once the wheels lock up and you start skidding no more braking power is going to slow you down any faster.

Cheers

[jbeattie]

Actually, my hardest braking is at slow speeds -- steep downhills with 90 degree non-banked turns at the bottom. Sled hills. Once in my life, I hit a twisting, paved down-hill with too much gusto and couldn't stop fast enough to make turn. I ended up in some blackberry bushes. I had some really crappy Universal single pivot brakes with bad pads. Dual pivots would have saved the day. Better pads would have saved the day. I couldn't stop my touring bike with my son in a Burley Trailer on some poorly adjusted cantilevers (they never worked well with STI levers). And I was on a very steep section of road and unable to stop on some cable discs with worn pads that I had not adjusted. I scrubbed enough speed to make the corner at the bottom and then stopped and adjusted the brakes and changed the pads when I got home.

In wet weather, I prefer the positive fee of discs and the absence of free-fall as a caliper brake squeegees off the rim. Rim brakes also eat rims on wet dirty roads. A cohort at work was going through a rim every year to two years. He's heavy and puts in a lot of commuting miles. Discs make a lot of sense off road in mud but are really specialty equipment on road bikes. Like I said, I think they are unnecessary for dry weather riding -- except maybe on pure CF rims on long descents. My son has CF rims and descends super-steep and long stuff in Utah. He worries about brake fade and overheating. Discs would be good for him -- with some big, finned rotors.

-- Jay Beattie.

[jbeattie]

OE finned pads: https://www.westernbikeworks.com/product/shimano-j04c-metal-disc-pads-with-cooling-fins The resin/organic pads wore out ridiculously quickly, and I took it in the shorts because I needed a quick replacement and thought I needed the finned pad -- which I didn't, but I did want metal. Next time I'm shopping for the non-finned, cheap-o metal pads.

-- Jay Beattie.

[James]

On 06/08/17 15:35, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Everyone who has descended in the wet with rimbrakes and carbon rims
> know the answer.
>

And that is the reason for disc brakes on road bikes. It is so that
CFRP rim manufacturers don't have to accommodate rim brakes in their
designs.

--
JS

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/6/2017 4:44 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 8:01:12 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Jay - do you normally ride at such a speed that heavy braking with any sort of brake is necessary?
>
> Actually, my hardest braking is at slow speeds -- steep downhills with 90 degree non-banked turns at the bottom. Sled hills. Once in my life, I hit a twisting, paved down-hill with too much gusto and couldn't stop fast enough to make turn. I ended up in some blackberry bushes. I had some really crappy Universal single pivot brakes with bad pads. Dual pivots would have saved the day. Better pads would have saved the day.

The first ten speed I ever bought was a German-made Staiger with Balilla
center pull brakes. Even when I didn't know much about bikes I thought
they were dismal. I remember endless squealing despite playing with
toe-in and different shoes. But I probably paid $75 for the bike (in
1972) so I shouldn't complain much.

The next worst brakes I had were the Dia Compe long-reach centerpulls
that were originally on my 1973 (?) Raleigh Super Course. That was
before Kool Stop Salmon pads were available, of course. The long brake
arms decreased mechanical advantage. (My wife had identical brakes but
short reach, and they were fine.) At the time I was amazed at how good
they were, but that's only by comparison with the Balillas.

BTW, that long reach center pull set is on the three speed bike I built
a few years ago. For tootling around shopping, etc. they're perfectly fine.

> I couldn't stop my touring bike with my son in a Burley Trailer on some poorly adjusted cantilevers (they never worked well with STI levers). And I was on a very steep section of road and unable to stop on some cable discs with worn pads that I had not adjusted. I scrubbed enough speed to make the corner at the bottom and then stopped and adjusted the brakes and changed the pads when I got home.

As I've mentioned before, we had a Warm Showers guest who said he had no
(as in zero) brakes during one day on tour because he wore the pads
away. I think disc users should carry a set of spare pads.

>
> In wet weather, I prefer the positive fee of discs and the absence of free-fall as a caliper brake squeegees off the rim. Rim brakes also eat rims on wet dirty roads.

The most exciting free fall I experienced was with the Balillas on
dimpled steel rims. I guess the dimples act as water reservoirs,
preventing wiping the rims even semi-dry. In a thunderstorm downpour, we
sailed on literally hundreds of feet past our planned turning point.

ISTM in the old days, people were told when riding in the rain to wipe
the rims by light brake application before a spot where brakes might be
needed. With decent rims and shoes, that works well enough for me.

These days, people are told instead to buy disc brakes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sun, 6 Aug 2017 07:51:23 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>

They may not be believable but I posted the reference which stated
that:

Leigh Howard showed that he sped along at 122kph at one point on stage
nine of the Tour de France
Read more at:
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/122kph-jeremy-roy-went-even-faster-tour-de-france-stage-nine-258371#3Au1uKvt4TXCBOMH.99

Jeremy Roy (FDJ) recorded 127kph (79mph) on the descent of the Côte
dela Comella

Marcus Burghardt (BMC) topped out at 130.7 (81.2mph) on the long
downhill section from the first climb, according to his Strava upload.

I had assumed that the TdeF is held on European highways.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I've mentioned exactly the same thing to Joerg and he ignores my
comments. I even described a test I did riding in the rain when I
could still skid either or both wheels with conventional rim brakes.

I can only assume that California is a different reality.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

Yes, and I quote:

"The smooth, long straight roads down from the Bonaigua climb as the riders headed towards Androrra provided the peloton with some much needed time to rest their legs, but travelling at over 130kph must be pretty taxing mentally."

You're not doing that on a twisting descent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk Hey, I might be climbing that next Friday or Saturday. Maybe not -- depending on where my son wants to flog me.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

On Sun, 6 Aug 2017 17:37:49 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>

Original post: "read that TdeF riders and their ilk have been known to

descend at speeds of 100kph using rim brakes."

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
news:eumj3a...@mid.individual.net...

> On 2017-08-05 11:49, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> What struck me as weird is that we have pro racers putting hydraulic
>> disc brakes on road bikes in pro races. These things are incredibly
>> powerful and can easily lock wheels especially in less than perfect
>> traction conditions.
>>
>> In the meantime Campagnolo Record skeleton brakes have reduced their
>> power on the rear brakes by going from a double pivot to a single
>> pivot rear brake mechanism.
>>
>> Ummm, aren't we at odds here?
>>
>

> On the rear not much brake force is needed, even in an emergency.

My rear brake broke a couple of years ago and I never got around to fixing
it. On motorcycles; I have to service the rear brake more often because it
seizes from lack of use.

there were a few occasions a rear bicycle brake would've come in handy - but
I lived to still not bother doing anything about it.

[Ian Field]

<avag...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b0ea1f2b-b110-4129...@googlegroups.com...
> Rear gives directional stability... balance.

Years ago I used to freak out the car commuters by seeing how many car
lengths I could lock the motorcycle front wheel for.

About 3 car lengths probably testifies to pretty good stability and
balance - but I just set off one morning and decided to quit while I was
ahead.

[Joerg]

Wait until you roar down a hill, reach in and .. pop .. the cable flies
off. BT.

[Mark J.]

Deer seem to prefer jumping in front of us when we're going downhill.
I've had at least three such encounters. Uphill, not so much.

Do you suppose it's a deer conspiracy?

Mark J.

[lu...@berkeley.edu]

On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 5:42:20 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> Are single pivot brakes actual less powerful then dual pivot? I had
> always assumed that the ratio of the length of the arms on the cable
> side of the pivot and the brake pads end determined the "power" of a
> brake.

The mechanical advantage of a caliper is the ratio of the shortest distance (horizontal distance, for a vertical cable) between the cable and the pivot point between arms (*), to the shortest distance (the vertical drop) from the pivot point down to a line between the brake pads.

This is reasonably obvious for single-pivot brakes, where the ratio is nominally 1:1. The ratio generally doesn't get appreciably higher than this: the pivot generally can't go much lower, and I think aesthetic concerns prevent moving the the cable farther aside.

(*) For double-pivot points, the effective pivot point lies at the intersection of a line between the two pivots, and a line normal to the pressure surface between the arms. On older Shimano calipers, this is pretty much at the tip of the adjusting screw.

This location for the pivot is both farther away from the cable, and also closer to the brake pads, thus giving a higher mechanical advantage - on the order of 1.2:1.

For the newer direct-mount calipers with symmetric pivots, the effective pivot point lies at the midpoint between the pivots (the previous definition still holds, but symmetry offers a shortcut). This is even lower than before, (effectively inside the tire!) but is also closer to the cable. While I haven't measured actual calipers, I think the two wash out and the MA remains about the same as before; somewhere around 1.2:1

[avag...@gmail.com]

If the car rotors are at half life n your environment is up/down, wet/wetter...consider mettalic pads for the last halflife.

Shorter n more precise stopping than ceramic. Good feel.

[avag...@gmail.com]

I had an online dialogue with van owner installed a heaver front bar solving van's handling wobbles.

I wrote about balance front n rear wit weight on what the designers had intended n the post got front bar worked up criting his work

Know the real story abt language perception tween different environment humans where the USA kayaker asked local SA fisherman abt conditions for the yakkers route ?

Fisherman 'is windy'

French Navy pulled group off beach afer a week (?) of 75 mph winds.

[Ned Mantei]

On 07-08-17 23:07, Ian Field wrote:
> My rear brake broke a couple of years ago and I never got around to
> fixing it. On motorcycles; I have to service the rear brake more often
> because it seizes from lack of use.

Then I hope that you never have a front brake cable give way while
zooming down a steep hill with a curve coming up, as happened to me once
≈25 years ago.

Ned

[Joerg]

In Northern Germany they'd call that a "stiff breeze".

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Ha ha ha - he said "stiff".

[Joerg]

That's how they literally say it, in German "steife Brise".

[Joerg]

On 2017-08-06 13:56, jbeattie wrote:
> On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 9:57:07 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-08-06 07:51, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

>>> With that said, dual-pivots on aluminum rims or aluminum brake
>>> track rims are more than adequate. On CF rims, things are a
>>> little more complicated, and on wet roads, I prefer discs.
>>>
>>> My road discs are not scary, except the price of replacement
>>> pads.
>>
>>
>> What kind? I get mind for $2/pair if I take four pairs, the longer
>> lasting ones. Including shipping. Even the inexpensive Clarks pads
>> for the road bike rim brakes cost more, let alone KoolStop.
>
> OE finned pads:
> https://www.westernbikeworks.com/product/shimano-j04c-metal-disc-pads-with-cooling-fins
> The resin/organic pads wore out ridiculously quickly, and I took it
> in the shorts because I needed a quick replacement and thought I
> needed the finned pad -- which I didn't, but I did want metal. Next
> time I'm shopping for the non-finned, cheap-o metal pads.
>

My impression is that the profit margins on bike parts are often huge.
How can a teeny li'l pair of pads cost more than the big fat one for cars?

I don't support such "premium pricing" or whatever that may be called
any longer so my brake pads come directly from Asia.

Similar for the road bike. When I wanted to replace the pads for the
Koolstop holders the price had gone up from $10 to about $20. For one
pair of rubber pads! So I got Clarks for under $4 instead, works just as
well.

[Joerg]

My encounters were on flat terrain. The closest call was on a trail
section where fit MTB riders easily travel at 20mph. I never hit one so
far but I have run over two squirrels lately. Also a fat rattlesnake
last year but luckily it wasn't coiled up so it couldn't easily strike me.

By far the most stupid animals seem to be turkeys (although squirrels
are close). They run along the trail, see me and then turn into the
trail. I guess they'd do the same if they saw a Union Pacific freight
train coming.

A scary encounter was when I woke up a doe that must have dozed off
right on the trail. Full brakes, lots of dust. It ran off a little,
stopped and somehow looked past me. I turned around and behind me was
her beau, big, with antlers and all, not looking very friendly.

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:ev0hsu...@mid.individual.net...

Someone in a pub I used to go in referred to a stiff drink as a; "stiffie" -
until someone pointed out what he was really asking for.................

[Doug Landau]

> > That's how they literally say it, in German "steife Brise".
>
> Someone in a pub I used to go in referred to a stiff drink as a; "stiffie" -
> until someone pointed out what he was really asking for.................

Stiffies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_Cw0QJU8ro

[Tosspot]

In my experience of living in Germany they will put out a weather
warning for anything gusting over Bf 5.

However, they won't bother for an againsterly.

[Joerg]

Not so much when I lived there but that was decades back.

> However, they won't bother for an againsterly.
>

This ought to feel nice on a bicycle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87_FLEC8WdQ

I have ridden in similar weather in the Netherlands but not quite that bad.

[Roger Merriman]

Max speed is fairly unreliable for such technology, i.e. GPS which can
easily be fooled by wooded areas and hills of which the TDF has plenty,
TV/websites do seem to go for some tall stories regarding speeds
reached/gradients of hills.

The few times I have checked TDF riders strava feeds the descents are much
more human speeds i.e. 40/50mph it's the climbs that is frankly inhuman!
>

Roger Merriman
>

[Doug Landau]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 4:19:41 AM UTC-7, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> If the car rotors are at half life n your environment is up/down, wet/wetter...consider mettalic pads for the last halflife.
>
> Shorter n more precise stopping than ceramic. Good feel.

What is the difference between metallic and semi-metallic

[John B.]

On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 06:49:03 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

I'm not sure whether it is relevant to the bicycle business but years
ago when I was doing a lot of photography I set out to buy a new Nikon
camera body and checked the prices in every shop in Singapore that
sold professional gear. It turned out that the shop I usually used -
it was close to the hotel where I normally stayed - had the same price
as all the other shops.

When I mentioned this to the salesman he laughed and told me that when
the average guy set out to buy a $1,000 camera body he usually checked
prices "all over town" but when he bought some little thing he didn't
bother so their prices for the "big stuff" had to be competitive with
everyone else, "but the markup of the small stuff might be as much as
100%".

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Another stupid animal is a two-legged one. You know, thoseo nes who ride bicycles extremely fast on trails where the rider KNOWS that someone just might be coming from the opposite direction or who knows that some critter may cross the trail too. Every day i see such riders on the rail-trails or other non-motor vehicle allowed trails hereabouts. those inconsiderate rider bomb along wherethere are blind corners and such and never give a thoughtthat manybe, just maybe, there might be someone stopped on the trail ahead of them or coming towards them.

I'd love to mount a LAW* on my bicycle for just such riders.

Cheers

*Light Anti-tank Weapon

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I have spent a lot of time in bicycle shops gabbing with owners or mechanics and I see how much business they do. If I had the sort of money to pay their prices I would. I guess I did one time. I was looking through my resume since after my concussion I can't remember any of the places I worked but can do any engineering job set in front of me. Get this:

"Provided customer service and applications interfacing for customers on the VME products line. Provided technical support to important customers such as NASA International Space Station Project and other NASA projects, Motorola, Ericsson Telephone, Lockheed Aerospace and others."

International Space Station??? Lockheed Aerospace??? Holy crap - no wonder I had so much problems with my wife. The pressure I must have been under.

Now that I don't work she decided that I'm better than nothing. And I can look the other way at the incredible messes she makes.