New bike for Jay

[Doug Landau]

Can we start speccing out equipment for Jay the way we do for Jorge?

I'll start with this thing. Jay tell us again what frame size you ride?

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/d/cannondale-super-six-cm/6230636448.html

[jbeattie]

Wow. That's a deal. I ride a 63cm in Cannondale. The OE Ksyrium wheels are a non-starter. I couldn't keep them true. But I'd buy that bike, and I was even in SF yesterday. Oh well.

I need two bikes, but both have been or are in the process of being replaced. I splurged and sort of replaced my commuter with a CF gravel bike for $1,600. at Western Bikeworks. An on-sale Norco Search. I couldn't help myself. It's a bike I've always liked. It's 105 level, which is more than fine -- and godbless Norco for using the whole component group and not some FSA or TruVativ crank or Tektro brakes. This is a fun bike and probably too nice for a commuter, so who knows, I might buy a beater frame and throw together a dead of winter commuter. Cannondale will probably give me something as a replacement for the broken CX frame. I just didn't want to wait to go through that process, and I wanted a gravel bike anyway. Hey, keep the economy strong. Bike sales are down. We have to do our part.

My uber-bike to replace the smashed SuperSix is going to be an Emonda because my son loves his, and I do work for Trek, so they'll give me a deal on a great bike. I like dealing with the fine folks in Wisconsin. I have always gone with the US companies because I'm a krypto-nationalist, even if the production is done elsewhere (or a lot of it). I like long warranties. If someone gave me a Pinarello, however, I would not throw it out -- although I'm not hot on Italiano BBs.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2017-07-26 09:31, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 8:55:05 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
>> Can we start speccing out equipment for Jay the way we do for
>> Jorge?
>>
>> I'll start with this thing. Jay tell us again what frame size you
>> ride?
>>
>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/d/cannondale-super-six-cm/6230636448.html
>
>>
> Wow. That's a deal. I ride a 63cm in Cannondale. The OE Ksyrium
> wheels are a non-starter. I couldn't keep them true. But I'd buy
> that bike, and I was even in SF yesterday. Oh well.
>
> I need two bikes, but both have been or are in the process of being
> replaced. I splurged and sort of replaced my commuter with a CF
> gravel bike for $1,600. at Western Bikeworks. An on-sale Norco
> Search. I couldn't help myself. It's a bike I've always liked. It's
> 105 level, which is more than fine -- and godbless Norco for using
> the whole component group and not some FSA or TruVativ crank or
> Tektro brakes. This is a fun bike and probably too nice for a
> commuter, so who knows, I might buy a beater frame and throw together
> a dead of winter commuter. Cannondale will probably give me something
> as a replacement for the broken CX frame. I just didn't want to wait
> to go through that process, and I wanted a gravel bike anyway. Hey,
> keep the economy strong. Bike sales are down. We have to do our
> part.
>

http://www.norco.com/bikes/road/adventure/search-aluminum/search-a-105-hydro/

Nice bike though 160/140mm rotors are IMO too wimpy. What always peeves
me and is one reason why I am sticking with my 35 year old steel frame
road bike is that manufacturers of "modern" bikes seem to assume nobody
has to carry anything. No rack attachment points. Schlepping a laptop,
water, food and other stuff in a backpack is a real pain especially when
it's over 100F out there and the ride is mostly in the sun. When I took
delivery of this full-custom road bike in the early 80's the very first
thing I did was to add lights and a nice big rack. I made sure the frame
I selected had provisions for that.

I even have a full rack (almost all home-made) on my FS-MTB. Stiffened
so the panniers won't sway into the spoked even during very rough rides.
Plus now a top trunk. Detachable in case a package has to be brought to
Fedex along the way. The available trunks can hold 1-1/2 gallons of
water, food, prototype parts for clients, a tool set and whatever else
is needed.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Doug Landau]

> me <snip>

I was just gonna say you are a lot easier to please than Jorge.

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 10:23:58 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

They make bikes for that. You just don't own one. I can go down the street an buy one. http://www.splendidcycles.com/ https://bikeportland.org/tag/cargo-bikes

By the way, I bought the CF (not allow) Norco Search: http://www.norco.com/bikes/road/adventure/search-carbon/search-c-105/

The Search alloy has rack mounts -- not the CF bike. The rotors are plenty big enough for a gravel bike. The 140mm rotors on my Cannondale CX bike were more than adequate.

I don't need a cargo bike. I want something fun to ride on gravel and through the hills on the way home. If I found myself in need of a rack, I'd buy a beater frane with rack mounts -- which I might do.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 1:23:58 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

> Nice bike though 160/140mm rotors are IMO too wimpy.

Snipped

EVERYTHING on ANY bicycle is too wimpy for you!

Cheers

[Doug Landau]

Yea, well, Jay might have been able to fix his c'dale with a hose clamp

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://portland.craigslist.org/search/bik

[avag...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 6:43:00 PM UTC-4, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> https://portland.craigslist.org/search/bik

https://www.google.com/search?q=aluminum+frame+touring+bicycles&sa=X&biw=1503&bih=791&tbs=vw:l,ss:44,p_ord:pd&tbm=shop&ei=JBt5We_9FsapjwS-rIaoCA&ved=0ahUKEwjvn5_zgqjVAhXG1IMKHT6WAYUQuw0IvQMoAw

[Doug Landau]

Is this some sort of joke?

[AMuzi]

Probably. Gene has an offbeat sense of humor.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[avag...@gmail.com]

Well yes and no. ... Ibin to Universal's. Warehouse: AAA N rode the Deschutes scheduled an animated film after working with Sam Hill"s Stonehenge supporting tourism

And report continuous physical attacks with direct associations from law and park.

The total physical n social environment. including Beattie, producing bicycling ... is reasonably highly unusual yet socially Darwinian.

NYC messenger services across the population spectrum in a place not very bike friendly

However, we expect conditions potentially capable of producing a small group of dedicated frames n groupo.

By profession n avocation JB is capable of sorting this to a conclusion. As with his journey into hub generators.

Happy trails ...

[Joerg]

Sure, but I meant a fast commuter, not a behemoth.

> By the way, I bought the CF (not allow) Norco Search:
> http://www.norco.com/bikes/road/adventure/search-carbon/search-c-105/
>

Interesting, Why did they drop the price so much versus list?

> The Search alloy has rack mounts -- not the CF bike. The rotors are
> plenty big enough for a gravel bike. The 140mm rotors on my
> Cannondale CX bike were more than adequate.
>

I saw something in the back. Didn't look like a rack mount but if they
are that would be very commendable. You probably aren't a clyde if 140mm
rotors work.

> I don't need a cargo bike. I want something fun to ride on gravel and
> through the hills on the way home. If I found myself in need of a
> rack, I'd buy a beater frane with rack mounts -- which I might do.
>

So you don't carry much back and forth? I did a valley trip yesterday.
Hot day and the extra water alone filled more than one pannier. On the
way back there are no fountains until 3mi before I am home.

[sms]

I saw someone with a great commuter bicycle a few weeks ago on Caltrain.
A Ritchey Breakaway frame, I think it was all 105, Brooks saddle, and a
Carradice bag. You need steel or titanium for a commute bicycle, with
hydraulic disc brakes.

A lot of people have been buying the titanium frames from 鈦郁工業股份有限公司|
in Taiwan and building up bikes from them, and they are the same
titanium frames that Bikesdirect has been using in their "Motobecane"
models.

63cm is hard though. The largest they have is 61cm.

<http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/disc-brake-roadbikes/centuryelt-ti-discbrake-road.htm>.
But they cheaped out, the crankset is not Ultegra. And of course you'd
want a steel fork on that.

Everyone around here is buying custom titanium bikes with Dura Ace
triples from Dean <http://www.deanbikes.com/>. No one is buying carbon
fiber or aluminum anymore.

[jbeattie]

Western Bikeworks has great deals. I got a Garmin 520 bundle for my son at the Christmas in-store super-sale for about $275 USD. I like the people there, too. It's internet and bricks-and-mortar.

>
> > The Search alloy has rack mounts -- not the CF bike. The rotors are
> > plenty big enough for a gravel bike. The 140mm rotors on my
> > Cannondale CX bike were more than adequate.
> >
>
> I saw something in the back. Didn't look like a rack mount but if they
> are that would be very commendable. You probably aren't a clyde if 140mm
> rotors work.

Hmmm. My tandem had two cantis, and my wife and I weighed over 300 lbs. We never had problems stopping, although I did overheat the rims once coming down Rocky Point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0
Over the the 12 years I owned the CX bike, my weight ranged from 193-220lbs. I'm closer to the bottom end again. I never had problems stopping on my CX bike with 140 rotors and mechanical discs unless I forgot to adjust the pads or they wore out on the ride. And I live in a hilly place.

I'm not doing 20 mile >10% descents on the way to work. Maybe the uber-gnarly steep roads in Cameron Park require 180mm rotors.

>
>
> > I don't need a cargo bike. I want something fun to ride on gravel and
> > through the hills on the way home. If I found myself in need of a
> > rack, I'd buy a beater frane with rack mounts -- which I might do.
> >
>
> So you don't carry much back and forth? I did a valley trip yesterday.
> Hot day and the extra water alone filled more than one pannier. On the
> way back there are no fountains until 3mi before I am home.

No, again, I don't need a cargo bike. And in a lifetime of riding, I've hauled water once -- riding across Wyoming in a place where it was 60 miles between towns. I rode from Seattle to Portland in a day with peak heat in the 90s and probably filled my bottles four times. No water bags. No racks. Just two water bottles that I filled every 50 miles. The distance from Cameron Park to Sacramento is 34 miles. If you need water bags for that, then you are a special person.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 7/27/2017 9:39 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

rotors work.
>
> Hmmm. My tandem had two cantis, and my wife and I weighed over 300 lbs. We never had problems stopping, although I did overheat the rims once coming down Rocky Point.

For touring in mountainous locations, on tandems, the common solution
was an Arai drum brake in the rear wheel set up with a drag control,
often a 3 speed twist grip. I had a spare wheel with the drum brake,
sold by Trek, but I think I only used it once. It was ridiculously
heavy. With the advent of disc brakes, it's not necessary anymore and
the Arai drum brake has been discontinued.
<http://www.precisiontandems.com/arai.htm>.

[Joerg]

Lately I find many bike shops going brick&mortar, web site, plus EBay.
What puzzles me happens on a regular basis: I see a part such as a tire
I want on their web site and it's $20. Ok but that's plus shipping which
makes the whole deal a non-starter. Then I go on EBay, find the same
tire for $15, free shipping, same (!) store. Yet there they must pay a
hefty sales commission. Beats me why they do that. An example is
Bikewagon in Utah where I always got free ship on EBay but not direct.

>>
>>> The Search alloy has rack mounts -- not the CF bike. The rotors
>>> are plenty big enough for a gravel bike. The 140mm rotors on my
>>> Cannondale CX bike were more than adequate.
>>>
>>
>> I saw something in the back. Didn't look like a rack mount but if
>> they are that would be very commendable. You probably aren't a
>> clyde if 140mm rotors work.
>
> Hmmm. My tandem had two cantis, and my wife and I weighed over 300
> lbs. We never had problems stopping, although I did overheat the
> rims once coming down Rocky Point.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0 Over the the 12 years I
> owned the CX bike, my weight ranged from 193-220lbs. I'm closer to
> the bottom end again. I never had problems stopping on my CX bike
> with 140 rotors and mechanical discs unless I forgot to adjust the
> pads or they wore out on the ride. And I live in a hilly place.
>
> I'm not doing 20 mile >10% descents on the way to work. Maybe the
> uber-gnarly steep roads in Cameron Park require 180mm rotors.

Not in Cameron Park which doesn't have long hills but in neighboring
areas. My MTB buddy weighs around 200lbs, his MTB has 8"/7" rotors, and
then it happened. Before the last sharp turn down a long descent he lost
his front brake.

>>
>>> I don't need a cargo bike. I want something fun to ride on gravel
>>> and through the hills on the way home. If I found myself in need
>>> of a rack, I'd buy a beater frane with rack mounts -- which I
>>> might do.
>>>
>>
>> So you don't carry much back and forth? I did a valley trip
>> yesterday. Hot day and the extra water alone filled more than one
>> pannier. On the way back there are no fountains until 3mi before I
>> am home.
>
> No, again, I don't need a cargo bike. And in a lifetime of riding,
> I've hauled water once -- riding across Wyoming in a place where it
> was 60 miles between towns. I rode from Seattle to Portland in a day
> with peak heat in the 90s and probably filled my bottles four times.
> No water bags. No racks. Just two water bottles that I filled every
> 50 miles. The distance from Cameron Park to Sacramento is 34 miles.
> If you need water bags for that, then you are a special person.
>

Yeah, I sweat a lot which I inherited from my dad. However, riding tens
of miles in 100F weather with just a bottle or two is not healthy for
anyone unless you can fill up many times on the way. Any reputable
sports physician would tell you the same. So does the army.

I generally carry three 28oz bottles plus one or two 17oz electrolyte
ones. On long MTB rides with no safe drinking water source I carry up to
1-1/2 gallons total. On those rides I often meet people, mostly hikers,
with serious signs of dehydration. Some of my water occasionally goes to
others.

The topper was a guy in Yosemite Park who seriously had planned to hike
up from the valley to the top of half dome and back, carrying little
water and no food. IIRC he had a couple of small bottles which were all
empty by then. We found him collapsed in bushes near the trail shortly
before you get to the ropes. If I hadn't gazed out into the nature right
there I wouldn't even have seen him and this guy was in major trouble.
Similar for a Chinese woman in Grand Canyon. And on and on.

[avag...@gmail.com]

I know 5-6 fast commuters but its expensive ...

[Joerg]

On 2017-07-27 10:50, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> I know 5-6 fast commuters but its expensive ...
>

Like this?

https://corporatejetinvestor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Falcon_8X.jpg

[avag...@gmail.com]

Beattie bought ?

http://www.norco.com/bikes/road/adventure/search-aluminum/search-a-105-hydro/

you’re gaining gravel stability but losing straight ahead power to round the stumps geometry

My Redline trekker looks like

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c1/5a/68/c15a68ce24bab6fd0723e3c5621e7447.jpg

n itsa complete zero straight ahead.


JB drinks chlorinated water.

Over 100 miles at 90 degrees this north desert african consumes 3+ quarts after hydrating the night before

[jbeattie]

Again, I'm talking about a road bike. I've run out of water and been miserable for a while, but I've always found water. I'm alive today, mostly.

> The topper was a guy in Yosemite Park who seriously had planned to hike
> up from the valley to the top of half dome and back, carrying little
> water and no food. IIRC he had a couple of small bottles which were all
> empty by then. We found him collapsed in bushes near the trail shortly
> before you get to the ropes. If I hadn't gazed out into the nature right
> there I wouldn't even have seen him and this guy was in major trouble.
> Similar for a Chinese woman in Grand Canyon. And on and on.

I know people who killed themselves by drinking too much water. Google hyponatremia.

I've done the hike from Glacier Point to Half Dome a bunch of times. I usually stopped for water at Nevada Falls. I don't know why your guy was dropping dead at the cables. Dopes do dopey things.

They don't let you down into the Grand Canyon unless you have water, so I don't know what the deal was with your Chinese woman, either. Maybe she did some Kung Fu on the rangers who check your backpack for water, etc., and ran down the trail.

I've been riding a really long time -- continuously. No decade off for bad traffic. Never have I needed to take multiple gallons of water on a road ride, including rides across the US from east to west and north to south (west coast). I've done the Sierra many times, including the Death Ride twice -- which is really well supported, so no need for oodles of spare water. But even on tour, I think I had a couple of bottles for a loop from now-burning Mariposa/Yosemite/Lee Vining/Tahoe/HWY 49 back to Mariposa. I had two bottles on every other tour but did have a water bag that I mostly used as a blow-up pillow -- except in Wyoming.

I did screw up and forget to buy food on a bike tour in Oregon. My wife and I ended up eating blackberries for dinner. There have been other food or drink mistakes, but nothing epic. Riding down the wasteland of the California coast, we ran out of gin and tonic -- until we hit the Little River Inn. It was horrible! Ah ha! I did run out of water on that ride -- between HWY 1 south of Mendocino and Cloverdale, riding inland over the mountains which were more mountain-y than expected. We found a little winery in the middle of nowhere and filled up. We were headed toward a town that turned out not to be there. Very odd.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2017-07-27 15:26, jbeattie wrote:
> On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 10:35:16 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-07-27 09:39, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 7:56:30 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-07-26 11:07, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

It's ok once in a while but going into dehydration on a regular basis
will cause damage.

>
>> The topper was a guy in Yosemite Park who seriously had planned to
>> hike up from the valley to the top of half dome and back, carrying
>> little water and no food. IIRC he had a couple of small bottles
>> which were all empty by then. We found him collapsed in bushes near
>> the trail shortly before you get to the ropes. If I hadn't gazed
>> out into the nature right there I wouldn't even have seen him and
>> this guy was in major trouble. Similar for a Chinese woman in Grand
>> Canyon. And on and on.
>
> I know people who killed themselves by drinking too much water.
> Google hyponatremia.
>

You'd pretty much have to sop up the Columbia River on a bike to get there.

> I've done the hike from Glacier Point to Half Dome a bunch of times.
> I usually stopped for water at Nevada Falls. I don't know why your
> guy was dropping dead at the cables. Dopes do dopey things.
>

Every time I was there they had signs posted not to drink it because of
Guardia. I guess some folks drank it anyhow.

> They don't let you down into the Grand Canyon unless you have water,
> so I don't know what the deal was with your Chinese woman, either.
> Maybe she did some Kung Fu on the rangers who check your backpack for
> water, etc., and ran down the trail.
>

It's been over 20 years since I was there last but I hiked down to the
Colorado and back numerous times. Kaibab - Bright Angel or sometimes
only on the Bright Angel trail. Nobody ever checked us. In fact, there
wasn't anyone there to check us. The only rangers were at the station
shortly before heading out to the plateau. That's where we brought the
Chinese woman because it looked like she could not walk any farther uphill.

> I've been riding a really long time -- continuously. No decade off
> for bad traffic. Never have I needed to take multiple gallons of
> water on a road ride, including rides across the US from east to west
> and north to south (west coast). I've done the Sierra many times,
> including the Death Ride twice -- which is really well supported, so
> no need for oodles of spare water.

Some routes are well-supported, then I don't take much water either. MTB
routes often have zilch. What you don't carry in you simply won't have
available.


> ... But even on tour, I think I had a

> couple of bottles for a loop from now-burning Mariposa/Yosemite/Lee
> Vining/Tahoe/HWY 49 back to Mariposa. I had two bottles on every
> other tour but did have a water bag that I mostly used as a blow-up
> pillow -- except in Wyoming.
>
> I did screw up and forget to buy food on a bike tour in Oregon. My
> wife and I ended up eating blackberries for dinner.

I did that. Once. Not because I messed up but because they looked so
delicious. Probably close to two pounds and then I felt a very sudden
urge to pedal home. Fast.


> ... There have been

> other food or drink mistakes, but nothing epic. Riding down the
> wasteland of the California coast, we ran out of gin and tonic --
> until we hit the Little River Inn. It was horrible! Ah ha! I did run
> out of water on that ride -- between HWY 1 south of Mendocino and
> Cloverdale, riding inland over the mountains which were more
> mountain-y than expected. We found a little winery in the middle of
> nowhere and filled up. We were headed toward a town that turned out
> not to be there. Very odd.
>

I had that in Nevada once. The map listed a town. When we got there it
was completely deserted and quiet, the only noise being an old gas
station sign squeaking in the wind.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 4:58:28 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

It's Giardia - (Gee-ardia) - this is the most common water born parasite. Most of the water on the west coast has it because there are so many areas without proper sanitary treatment facilities. That's why you should NEVER drink any water from anywhere that isn't treated.

This is world wide. The medications to clear the runs up normally only works about 2/3rds of the time. Although it usually clears up by itself in two or so weeks it can leave effects for a year.

NOT FUN.

Any areas that are posted should also be treated as non-swimming and non-washing.

[AMuzi]

On 7/27/2017 6:58 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-07-27 15:26, jbeattie wrote:
>> July 27, 2017 at 10:35:16 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-07-27 09:39, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> July 27, 2017 at 7:56:30 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> On 2017-07-26 11:07, jbeattie wrote:

snip

> I had that in Nevada once. The map listed a town. When we
> got there it was completely deserted and quiet, the only
> noise being an old gas station sign squeaking in the wind.
>

especially after the Cameron Park train pulls out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XkHsinz7oU

[avag...@gmail.com]

not challenging your authority but the idea is if you are thirsty then drink water ... good water.

what you're telling us is you know how thirsty you are from A-B

pre hydrating with carb loading is a good start

costX2+10%

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 09:39:03 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
<jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:

> Just two water bottles that I filled every 50 miles.

When I could ride that far, a bottle would last about ten miles.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 5:46:50 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 7/27/2017 6:58 PM, Joerg wrote:
> > On 2017-07-27 15:26, jbeattie wrote:
> >> July 27, 2017 at 10:35:16 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> >>> On 2017-07-27 09:39, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>> July 27, 2017 at 7:56:30 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> >>>>> On 2017-07-26 11:07, jbeattie wrote:
> snip
>
> > I had that in Nevada once. The map listed a town. When we
> > got there it was completely deserted and quiet, the only
> > noise being an old gas station sign squeaking in the wind.
> >
>
> especially after the Cameron Park train pulls out:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XkHsinz7oU

Nevada and Utah have so many ghost towns that there are probably more of those than actual towns.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 8:22:57 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 09:39:03 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
> <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > Just two water bottles that I filled every 50 miles.
>
> When I could ride that far, a bottle would last about ten miles.

Yesterday I rode a metric with one small and really bad cup of coffee. And I averaged 14.5 mph even though I was riding through city traffic with stop signs and lights everywhere. I did hydrate after I got home.

[Doug Landau]

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 9:31:55 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 8:55:05 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
> > Can we start speccing out equipment for Jay the way we do for Jorge?
> >
> > I'll start with this thing. Jay tell us again what frame size you ride?
> >
> > https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/d/cannondale-super-six-cm/6230636448.html
>
> Wow. That's a deal. I ride a 63cm in Cannondale. The OE Ksyrium wheels are a non-starter. I couldn't keep them true. But I'd buy that bike, and I was even in SF yesterday. Oh well.
>
> I need two bikes, but both have been or are in the process of being replaced. I splurged and sort of replaced my commuter with a CF gravel bike for $1,600. at Western Bikeworks. An on-sale Norco Search. I couldn't help myself. It's a bike I've always liked. It's 105 level, which is more than fine -- and godbless Norco for using the whole component group and not some FSA or TruVativ crank or Tektro brakes. This is a fun bike and probably too nice for a commuter, so who knows, I might buy a beater frame and throw together a dead of winter commuter. Cannondale will probably give me something as a replacement for the broken CX frame. I just didn't want to wait to go through that process, and I wanted a gravel bike anyway. Hey, keep the economy strong. Bike sales are down. We have to do our part.
>

> My uber-bike to replace the smashed SuperSix is going to be an Emonda because my son loves his, and I do work for Trek, so they'll give me a deal on a great bike. I like dealing with the fine folks in Wisconsin. I have always gone with the US companies because I'm a krypto-nationalist, even if the production is done elsewhere (or a lot of it). I like long warranties. If someone gave me a Pinarello, however, I would not throw it out -- although I'm not hot on Italiano BBs.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

oooo, katakura, mmmm
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/bik/d/very-rare-katakura-silk-road/6238219852.html

[Joerg]

On 2017-07-27 17:46, AMuzi wrote:
> On 7/27/2017 6:58 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-07-27 15:26, jbeattie wrote:
>>> July 27, 2017 at 10:35:16 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2017-07-27 09:39, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>> July 27, 2017 at 7:56:30 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>> On 2017-07-26 11:07, jbeattie wrote:
> snip
>
>> I had that in Nevada once. The map listed a town. When we
>> got there it was completely deserted and quiet, the only
>> noise being an old gas station sign squeaking in the wind.
>>
>
> especially after the Cameron Park train pulls out:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XkHsinz7oU
>

That was one of the best Westerns of all times. I have seen it almost 20
times.

Next week I'll ride through here:

https://cdn-files.apstatic.com/mtb/1103650_large_1371328168.jpg

It used to be a tunnel but the top is gone. Lots of lore about how that
happened. Maybe Rooster Cogburn came through there and blew it all up.

[David Scheidt]

Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
:On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 09:39:03 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie

:<jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:

:> Just two water bottles that I filled every 50 miles.

:When I could ride that far, a bottle would last about ten miles.

Jay's a camel.

--
sig 42

[jbeattie]

Not like Jobst. I fill up big bottles. I just don't take more than two -- except on rare occasion. When selecting a bike, I don't go into the store and ask for an '80s Euro-sport bike with a rack so I can haul gallons of water on a day ride.

Joerg has peculiar needs. I'm fine with a couple of bottle bosses and 160mm brake rotors on a gravel bike. If I were riding trails in the middle of nowhere, I might consider a camel back or some other option, but I'm not. I'm never that far from water on a day ride.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2017-07-28 15:57, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 2:10:10 PM UTC-7, David Scheidt wrote:
>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote: :On Thu, 27 Jul
>> 2017 09:39:03 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie :<jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> :> Just two water bottles that I filled every 50 miles.
>>
>> :When I could ride that far, a bottle would last about ten miles.
>>
>> Jay's a camel.
>
> Not like Jobst. I fill up big bottles. I just don't take more than
> two -- except on rare occasion. When selecting a bike, I don't go
> into the store and ask for an '80s Euro-sport bike with a rack so I
> can haul gallons of water on a day ride.
>

A few week ago time I also hauled a homebrewed IPA in a stainless 16oz
thermos. Plus a nice lunch with crunchy bread baked for the trub (the
residue at the bottom of a beer fermenter). Plus a pristine view where I
had lunch:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork1.JPG

The was no drinking water source the whole 20mi and it was up and down
all the time.

> Joerg has peculiar needs. I'm fine with a couple of bottle bosses
> and 160mm brake rotors on a gravel bike. If I were riding trails in
> the middle of nowhere, I might consider a camel back or some other
> option, but I'm not. I'm never that far from water on a day ride.
>

A hydration pack is what most riders use around here and, consequently,
end up with sweat-soaked backs when it's 100F or or. They also regularly
run out of water which means a detour that I don't have to take.

[avag...@gmail.com]

What is a gravel bike n why in Portland ?

if I search 'gravel bikes' am I locating that type bike you want or bought...the linked bike is the bike bought for commuting ?

[avag...@gmail.com]

Tires ?

[AMuzi]

On 7/28/2017 7:52 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> Tires ?
>

Good idea.
Rims without tires suffer poor cornering.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/28/2017 8:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>
> The was no drinking water source the whole 20mi and it was up and down
> all the time.

Gosh!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-7, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> What is a gravel bike n why in Portland ?
>
> if I search 'gravel bikes' am I locating that type bike you want or bought...the linked bike is the bike bought for commuting ?

Low bottom bracket, fender clearance and disc brakes. Gravel bikes are perfect commuters. The geometry is just like a 1975 touring bike with a longer head tube. Get an aluminum or steel one if you want fenders. Plus, we have lots of gravel. Here's some happy campers on gravel bikes do a ride I did a few weeks ago -- on my Roubaix. http://www.pathlesspedaled.com/2015/04/22/rode-trip-portland-to-cascade-locks-with-a-little-gravel-and-a-side-of-corned-beef-hash/ Alex Barr Road is really steep. It doesn't show in those pictures. I also didn't take the train to get out of town. I took a MUP and some roads.

I really got the bike because it was practically half price, and I always wanted one. I have dreams of more serious gravel riding. I've got so many spare parts now that I might build an beater commuter for the winter. Maybe steel!

-- Jay Beattie.

[avag...@gmail.com]

List is too much. Good deal.

Way more trail than my trekker with more tire seat post clearance. Is a 2.0" possible ?

Tried larger front narrower rear ?

My warped perspective on using this frame for commuting n not round the stumps warps prob caws ura seriously stronger rider.

Seat post sitting is hill climbing n then stand to negotiate or power ... with less from the rear placed seat post/saddle.

Until I get to gravity gravel ...the geo means lost power ...with JB the long trail mtb/cx is but another hill.

Bummer on the size. Most everything is too ergo tight. The Raleigh is too short...muh butt sores. All those exotic hiking boots...water sneakers.

With a linger stroke yawl get max more from the hill climb position.

Spec may sell a long mount saddle goes back further ..I have Ritchey 4 clamp mount ..carrying spare hardware n a round cabinet magnet.

How'the hub gen fitting in ?

[Doc O'Leary]

For your reference, records indicate that

Or maybe he just doesn’t ride in a desert. I can certainly go 20-25
miles with a regular sized water bottle in moderate ~75F/24C
conditions. I’ve gone on winter bike rides where I’ve gone that far
and drunk half as much.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly

[David Scheidt]

jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:

:On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 2:10:10 PM UTC-7, David Scheidt wrote:
:> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
:> :On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 09:39:03 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
:> :<jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
:>
:> :> Just two water bottles that I filled every 50 miles.
:>
:> :When I could ride that far, a bottle would last about ten miles.
:>
:> Jay's a camel.

:Not like Jobst. I fill up big bottles. I just don't take more than
:two -- except on rare occasion. When selecting a bike, I don't go into
:the store and ask for an '80s Euro-sport bike with a rack so I can haul
:gallons of water on a day ride.

I've run out of water on what should have been a 20 mile ride near my
parents. I had two big bottles. I got lost (went west instead of
east, corrected by going north) and ran out of water in the middle of
nowhere. It was about 90 and 100% humidity. I ended up having to
ride 10 miles before I found a house. When I got back on track, I
stopped at a gas station to get an ice cream, and discovered there was
a big power outage, and had to steal one.



--
sig 72

[Joerg]

On 2017-07-28 15:57, jbeattie wrote:

http://www.performancebike.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Content_10052_10551_-1_CyclingHydrationGuide

Quote: "Carry and consume one 16-24oz bottle of plain water, plus one
extra 16-24oz bottle of an energy drink for each hour on the bike".

Most of my rides are 4-5h and I am a tall guy who is more at the upper
end of the water requirement scale. So there.

Yes, this also applies to Oregonians since they have a store in Portland :-)

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 6:14:54 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/28/2017 8:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
> >
> >
> > The was no drinking water source the whole 20mi and it was up and down
> > all the time.
>
> Gosh!

Last Thursday I rode 25 miles in very high humidity and the sweat was pouring off of me. I was wearing a cycling cap under the helmet and the water came off it in a steady stream. I didn't take a sip of water for the whole time (1 hour 20 minutes) and had a small cup of coffee before starting back. By that time the humidity had gone down and the wind had picked up so I did another 40 miles without a drink. I did have three beers at the end of the ride. For all of the talk about alcohol dehydrating you I don't find that to be true.

[Joerg]

I'll second that on the beers. As long as it's the good stuff from small
breweries. What it does to some riders though is making them tired. That
is why I can hardly convince anyone to stop at a pub, mainly because out
here it's all uphill from those places. In Belgium that was very
different. The whole riding group would loudly cheer at the first
suggestion and then immediately find a pub.

Some riders had a demi-bouteille (smaller bottle than the usual 0.7
liter) of red wine in one of their bottle holders and then let that
circle. Yep, drinking it from the bottle. In France they'd probably have
a hissy fit about that and I guess in America a cop who'd see that would
arrest the whole peloton.

[jbeattie]

There used to be three Performance stores in Portand, but they closed the one downtown -- the only one close to my work or home.

So, reading that prescription, do I have to carry eight bottles for a four hour ride? Wow, I better start buying cages and hose clamps. Or I could just stop every hour and fill up my bottles -- assuming I needed all that fluid. Hmmmmmm.

I did a 30 mile loop this afternoon -- nothing terrible because I'm expecting to get throttled by some friends tomorrow. Temperature was low-mid 80s -- blue skies, low wind. A gorgeous day. I went through one 21oz bottle, and there is still some water sloshing around in the bottle. A lot of the riding was under trees, so I wasn't taking a lot of direct sun. If I were in the bright sun, I'd drink more. And I'd have a better tan.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 07:34:09 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Your equation doesn't mention OAT which is critical to the body's
water usage. If one were riding in the Mojave desert on the 4th of
July your liquid requirement wouldn't be sufficient and if in Nome on
Christmas day it would be overkill.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://www.google.com/search?q=tanning+in+portland&oq=tanning+in+portland&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.11299j0j4&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[avag...@gmail.com]

MIAMI BEACH !

good days for a midweek coast ride

.........

Thru a blue sky

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=26.4487&lon=-81.9428#.WX2-VsspDqA

Norco us then an outstanding niche bike or are there a 1000 Norco types ...that is is the Norco a typical 'gravel' bike ?

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/28/climate/more-frequent-extreme-summer-heat.html

[avag...@gmail.com]

try cold Perrier with fresh cut lemon n a wee pinch a salt


https://weather.com/forecast/national/news/stormy-florida-gulf-wet-cool-plains-hot-northwest-early-august-2017

[Joerg]

Certainly so in hot weather. If you carry much less and have no re-fill
options you could be causing damage to your body.


> ... Wow, I better start buying cages and hose clamps. Or

> I could just stop every hour and fill up my bottles -- assuming I
> needed all that fluid. Hmmmmmm.
>

I need that much fluid when it's around 100F out there like right now.
Yesterday's ride was only 20mi in hilly terrain and I consumed about
70oz of water plys 16oz of electrolyte.

Ok, plus two pints at a brewpub :-)

> I did a 30 mile loop this afternoon -- nothing terrible because I'm
> expecting to get throttled by some friends tomorrow. Temperature was
> low-mid 80s -- blue skies, low wind. A gorgeous day. I went through
> one 21oz bottle, and there is still some water sloshing around in the
> bottle.

Unless you rode really slowly that wasn't healthy even without much sun.


> ... A lot of the riding was under trees, so I wasn't taking a lot

> of direct sun. If I were in the bright sun, I'd drink more. And I'd
> have a better tan.
>

It's hardly ever as low as 80F on my summer rides. Mostly because due to
work I can't head out before 11:30am or so.

On routes into the valley I can re-fill at schools, playgrounds, sport
fields and such. So my road bike only has the two panniers which is good
because it allows me to haul a box full of stuff or a package. Very
different on the MTB and thus it now has the same two panniers plus a
top trunk which can hold more than a 1/2 gallon extra. Similar to what
longhaul dirt bike riders have, just smaller. It is tempting to drink
from the American River and similar bodies of water but that can result
in not getting off the pot for days.

[avag...@gmail.com]

J, with the new expedition approach consider a Steripen with a micro filter for moose eggs

[Joerg]

It's not my equation, it is recommended by sports medicine guys and they
know a thing or two about dehydration. I assume they calculated for
heavy riding where you pump out close to as much as your body will give
at the current weather conditions. Note they say "per hour", not "per xx
miles".

For example, in summer I need almost 1/2h longer for one of my 4h MTB
loops because else I just start panting too much. In winter I ride
faster and that makes me pant and sweat just as much, and consequently,
drink just as much water. I'f I'd ride at the same slower speed in
winter I'd need much less water and sometimes I do that. For example,
when I just want to get out there to sit and think about a difficult
engineering task. Then I also take less in fluids along.

[Joerg]

On 2017-07-31 10:58, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> J, with the new expedition approach consider a Steripen with a micro filter for moose eggs
>

I prefer the liquid version.

http://bigskybrew.com/beers/moose-drool/

[Sir Ridesalot]

That's NUTS! They're teling you that you have to drink an 8 ounces cup (250 ml) of liquid every FIFTEEN minutes! That's if you use the smaller 16 0unces capacity NOT the 24 ounces sizes. 2 x 16 = 32 ounces divided by 8 = 4 and 1 hour devided by 4 is 15 minutes. If you use two 24 ounces bottles you have 48 ounces divided by 4 = 12 ounces evey fifteen minutes which is 1.5 cups per quarter hour.

Gads at that rate for a 4 hour + ride you'd dang near need a trailer just for your liquids!

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 2:00:33 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

> >> Quote: "Carry and consume one 16-24oz bottle of plain water, plus one
> >> extra 16-24oz bottle of an energy drink for each hour on the bike".
> >>

Snipped

> It's not my equation, it is recommended by sports medicine guys and they
> know a thing or two about dehydration. I assume they calculated for
> heavy riding where you pump out close to as much as your body will give
> at the current weather conditions. Note they say "per hour", not "per xx
> miles".

The same sports medicine guys who used to recomend that runners and other athletes drink so much water during exercise that some runners and athletes died of hyponatremia or water intoxication.

Or are those sports medicine guys getting a kickback from the energy drink people?

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,10&q=limiting+water+intake+during+athletics

[Duane]

They must mean 1- 16 - 24oz bottle of water OR energy drink per hour. I
did a bit over 100k yesterday and had to fill my 2 24oz water bottles at
the midway point. Average speed was about 29k/h and it was a bit muggy
but not excessively hot. Not much wind and probably 500m of ascent so
not a particularly tough ride. 4 bottles was plenty. I can't imagine
drinking twice that much liquid. Maybe if I was climbing in the Alps or
something.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I'm not really sure that they do. After all, dehydration that they're talking about isn't from being out in the sun and wind but from riding at or near maximum effort. I am showing no deleterious effects from riding pretty long distances at moderate paces without much in the way of hydration.

[Joerg]

Performance Bike getting kickbacks from energy drink people? Sometimes I
wonder just what you are smoking.

[Joerg]

Over 4-5h of hard MTB riding on a 95-100F day I find that 1-1/2 gallons
of liquids is adequate. But not less than that. I could have used more
but that's all I had on the bike.

I have met plenty of people on trails who thought like you, that this
was ridiculous and all that. They did not look too well healthwise and
sometimes I gave them one of my bottles. In one case almost all my water
because the guy appeared close to heading towards the eternal trails.

[Joerg]

Aside form the hilliness it depends on what "not excessively hot" means.
For folks in Arizona that can mean anything under 105F. In Alaska they
consider a 30F days a scorcher.

Where I live we can have weeks of 100F+ weather, like right now. Most
people simply stop riding during that time just like they do when it's
below freezing. I don't. The amount of sweat is so enormous that I need
two head bands of the extra-wide kind. They get swapped out every
10-20mi, with the wet one being wrung out and then hung onto a strap of
a pannier. Meaning nobody would draft me unless they carried a nose
clamp :-)

[Joerg]

Sometimes the effects of dehydration aren't felt immediately but damage
can still be done, also longterm damage.

http://www.bicycling.com/training/hydration/how-dehydration-affects-your-riding-and-tips-for-avoiding-it

Arizonans take that topic really seriously:

http://healthyliving.azcentral.com/cycling-dehydration-4487.html

Quote "If you're planning to ride over 25 miles, begin drinking fluids
the night before. If you need to get out of bed to urinate once or twice
during the night, your body should be sufficiently hydrated".

I don't quite go that far :-)

Their recommendation of 4 to 8 ounces every 15 minutes is a bit on the
low side. For example, while hiking rocky terrain in the Superstition
Mountains east of Phoenix we needed a whole lot more than that.

Dehydration is a very common cause of serious healtyh problems in
elderly people. When they are asked they respond "But I am not thirsty".
Thirst is not a good indicator because that can come a bit late in the
dehydration process.

My main hydration point on yesterday's ride was this:

http://edhbrewing.com/about-us.html

[Duane]

Coming from New Orleans, I rarely find it excessively hot in
Quebec/Ontario.

But I think it has more to do with the amount of energy you expend than
with the temperature. I can use more water on a cold day riding flat
out than on a hot day taking it easy.

Anyway I don't ride like you do or where you do so I am not telling you
what to do. If you think you need to carry 55 gallon drums of water, go
for it.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Someone on the verge of heat exhaustion or heat stroke is NOT going to be able to exercise after drinking just one 16 ounces bottle of water or energy drink. To give such a person water or energy drink and then leave them is irresponsible.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

Well there Joerg, that's fine. I thappen to think thatthe vast majority of your posts/claims are bullshit trolling.

Cheers

[jbeattie]

Well, I felt good enough to go out yesterday for a 55 mile ride with about >20 miles of steady or rolling hills, during which time I drank one 24oz bottle of Hammer Heed and a quarter of a 21oz bottle of water -- plus a Cliff Bar. I went early and temperatures were mild, and except for the return trip down HWY 30, I was often under tree cover. http://www.sahdpdx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/oregon_highway_30.jpg

You complain about your drivers, I was on this road: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fzwm4m3ZFI (although it was sunny and nice). It was pretty empty early morning, so no urban race-car drivers. First climb of the day is four miles of mostly gravel. http://www.rubbertotheroad.com/ride-images/ride_36/36_3.jpg It's like being in the Hobbit kingdom.

If it were blistering hot (i.e. Thursday is predicted to be 107), I would have consumed much more water, and I would have stopped to refill. The center section of the ride doesn't have anywhere to stop (unless I tapped someone's hosebib), but there are spots elsewhere, and the last eight miles home are through the city -- basically my commute route plus a few miles. If I were so inclined, I could go to a half-dozen brew pubs, including the new Breakside in NW. Their IPA is first-rate. However, I prefer not to ride home after drinking beer.

I felt way better than I should have coming home, I think because of the HEED -- and a tail wind. Drinking for recovery is just as important as drinking on the bike, so I had a beer after getting home -- and then mowed the lawn. That was hard! I drank 120oz of water!

-- Jay Beattie.

[Duane]

Hammer Heed is good stuff. For cutting the lawn after the trick is to
be able to manager the mower with one hand leaving one free for the beer.

[jbeattie]

We're talking road biking and not trail riding or walking. Let them die. More food for the mountain lions.

Is there a town square arch in Cameron Park built from human bones -- like the elk antler arch in Jackson Hole? With all the dead from dehydration, mountain lions, crazy drivers, etc., one would expect there to be some sort of monument -- and intervention by the CDC. Maybe an indication on the map -- skull and cross-bones, like the Bermuda triangle. "Going to Cameron Park may result in death, disfigurement or disability."

I got thirsty in Cameron Park and went to the 7-11 across from the airfield and got a Slurpee. I did, however, note the accumulation of human skeletal remains along the road.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

Where did I write that I left them?

[Joerg]

That looks like an easy ride. Really wide shoulder and all. I had a
similar one on the way home yesterday.

https://goo.gl/maps/k2LVKpS6GLs

The constant din of cars is annoying but I have an MP3 player mounted to
the steerer tube that is (somewhat) able to drown that out.

> You complain about your drivers, I was on this road:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fzwm4m3ZFI (although it was sunny
> and nice).

Yikes! That's how our crotch rocket guys ride. Many assume there will
never be anything behind a curve. Until there is ...

One of my MTB buddy was a first responder and he told me some gruesome
stories about the aftermath.


> ... It was pretty empty early morning, so no urban race-car

> drivers. First climb of the day is four miles of mostly gravel.
> http://www.rubbertotheroad.com/ride-images/ride_36/36_3.jpg It's like
> being in the Hobbit kingdom.
>
> If it were blistering hot (i.e. Thursday is predicted to be 107), I
> would have consumed much more water, and I would have stopped to
> refill. The center section of the ride doesn't have anywhere to stop
> (unless I tapped someone's hosebib), but there are spots elsewhere,
> and the last eight miles home are through the city -- basically my
> commute route plus a few miles. If I were so inclined, I could go to
> a half-dozen brew pubs, including the new Breakside in NW. Their IPA
> is first-rate. However, I prefer not to ride home after drinking
> beer.
>

I usually have one on the way back or somewhere near the destination. No
more growlers though since I now brew my own.

> I felt way better than I should have coming home, I think because of
> the HEED -- and a tail wind. Drinking for recovery is just as
> important as drinking on the bike, so I had a beer after getting home
> -- and then mowed the lawn. That was hard! I drank 120oz of water!
>

How does Hammer Heed stack up against Ultima Replenisher? That's what I
use so far, the orange version of it. The lemon version tastes too much
like a diet soda IMHO.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Well it's now legal in many states.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

This long term damage must really be long term because I've been doing it most of my 40 year bicycling career.

[avag...@gmail.com]

What,abt the nww bike performance ?

[jbeattie]

Who knew: http://www.texascenterwellness.com/worst-electrolyte-drinks/

I try stuff, and if it gives me cramps or tastes like sh**, I stop buying it. I do prefer GU to Cliff Shots, but I've never tried the Hammer gel and have few other strong preferences when it comes to magical bike potions. The Hammer Heed makes me feel better . . . I think. It could have been the left-over Mexican from the night before. Who knows.

I have a friend (old chick enduro national champion) who swears by this https://www.infinitnutrition.us/ As long as it isn't total snake oil, it's basically just pick something you like.

The Hammer orange flavor is mild and tastes like creamsicles. Fruit punch anything should be avoided.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

After what a driver in WA state told me, that legalization dropped my
confidence when riding on roads. "It was cool, man! I could ride all the
way across two states with no sleep, and the center line kinda flew over
the hood of the car!"

[AMuzi]

On 7/31/2017 4:24 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> What,abt the nww bike performance ?
>

I find that new bike performance is limited by my old legs.
YMMV

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Duane]

>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v_zwm4m3ZFI (although it was sunny

Hammer Heed gets a bit expensive so I'm trying these Nuun tablets. Easier
to deal with and no sugar. I don't need the sugar with the cliff shots I
use.

I usually find the gu too much trouble but I just did this Pierre Lavoie
charity ride here and they were giving out these local made maple syrup
based gu packets. Pretty good stuff. Plus they gave us 2 beers with the
lunch after the ride. Lol. They know marketing...

--
duane

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Try Red Bull. That is the only stuff I've tried that I can actually feel getting into my system and improving my performance. The SMALL CAN.

[Joerg]

On 2017-07-31 14:44, Duane wrote:
> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 2:03:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-07-31 13:09, jbeattie wrote:

Somehow my news server dropped Jay's response. No idea why.

>>>> I felt way better than I should have coming home, I think because of
>>>> the HEED -- and a tail wind. Drinking for recovery is just as
>>>> important as drinking on the bike, so I had a beer after getting home
>>>> -- and then mowed the lawn. That was hard! I drank 120oz of water!
>>>>
>>>
>>> How does Hammer Heed stack up against Ultima Replenisher? That's what I
>>> use so far, the orange version of it. The lemon version tastes too much
>>> like a diet soda IMHO.
>>
>> Who knew: http://www.texascenterwellness.com/worst-electrolyte-drinks/
>>

That's a pretty good endorsement.

>> I try stuff, and if it gives me cramps or tastes like sh**, I stop buying
>> it. I do prefer GU to Cliff Shots, but I've never tried the Hammer gel
>> and have few other strong preferences when it comes to magical bike
>> potions. The Hammer Heed makes me feel better . . . I think. It could
>> have been the left-over Mexican from the night before. Who knows.
>>

My stomach feel on rides is usually related to the quantity of
blackberries I found and ate. The ones on MTB trails often come in a
month later so that stretches the time of availability. They provide a
lot of fructose as well.

>> I have a friend (old chick enduro national champion) who swears by this
>> https://www.infinitnutrition.us/ As long as it isn't total snake oil,
>> it's basically just pick something you like.
>>

Wow, create your own custom mix. Very fancy.

>> The Hammer orange flavor is mild and tastes like creamsicles. Fruit punch
>> anything should be avoided.
>>
>
> Hammer Heed gets a bit expensive so I'm trying these Nuun tablets. Easier
> to deal with and no sugar. I don't need the sugar with the cliff shots I
> use.
>

For Ultima I pay about $30 for 90 servings worth of powder. I use one
serving per 17oz water bottle (re-used purified water bottles from the
store).

http://www.ultimareplenisher.com/product/orange-90-serving-canister/

I used to get the occasional "almost cramp" during hard MTB rides. Where
I felt it coming up, stopped, massaged, went back into the saddle.
Happens no more and I can now ride through. I still get a very
occasional middle of the night leg cramp, the kind where you almost want
to scream. But that's now down from 20/year to 2-3/year. For my wife who
doesn't ride but had the occasional leg muscle cramp it also helped, her
cramps went almost completely away.

> I usually find the gu too much trouble but I just did this Pierre Lavoie
> charity ride here and they were giving out these local made maple syrup
> based gu packets. Pretty good stuff.

My sister uses goo packets on rides as well and often tries to convince
me. I tried it a few times but didn't like it. I carry home-made "power
bars" that are non-sweet. They have bacon, nuts and all kinds of hearty
stuff in there. A lot of work for my wife to make but worth it. On rides
longer than 4-5h I carry sandwiches made with home-baked bread. The dark
crunchy stuff, similar to European farmer's bread.


> ... Plus they gave us 2 beers with the

> lunch after the ride. Lol. They know marketing...
>

I don't like competition events but that would be my kind of ride! Has
to be the good stuff though, not any cheap beer brand.

[avag...@gmail.com]

? Apparently J wasn't impressed....geometry change change throwem off ?

[avag...@gmail.com]

Hmmm I haven't eaten a supplement or small package energy 'food' ...

Buying one for the backpack as an emergency device seems appealing.

Recommend one giving a long lasting low dose type charge ?

REI is big on GU.

[Frank Krygowski]

I have no personal experience with the stuff, but the ultramarathoner in
our family uses Nuun.

> Try Red Bull. That is the only stuff I've tried that I can actually feel getting into my system and improving my performance.

I've felt the pleasant kick from several of the gooey gel products
containing caffeine. I've also experienced a great recovery from
Mountain Dew.

On a hot and fast (for me) ride last year, I was dying at about 35
miles. We stopped at a Dairy Queen to cool down and I had two cups of
Dew before the ten miles or so to the end. Afterwards the ride leader
told me "You took off like a bat out of hell!"

He exaggerated, but I did finish before him, feeling fine.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/31/2017 3:21 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>
> My main hydration point on yesterday's ride was this:
>
> http://edhbrewing.com/about-us.html

You know, Joerg, most of us probably drink beer. Only one of us feels
compelled to constantly brag about it.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[James]

I've completed the "Alpine Audax" 200km event maybe a dozen times. I
never went hunger flat. I grabbed 3-4 pieces of food from the food
supplies at each check point. Muffins and small cakes. I'd eat a few
quartered orange pieces where available while stopped. Always leave a
stop with two full water bottles.

Never used gels for those events. I have used them in some races
though. Mostly because they are easier to ingest while you're working
hard than a piece of cake or a banana.

I've not used canned stimulants, but on recreational and training rides
I like to stop for a coffee somewhere if time permits.

--
JS

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/31/2017 5:45 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 7/31/2017 4:24 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>> What,abt the nww bike performance ?
>>
>
> I find that new bike performance is limited by my old legs.
> YMMV

... and lungs. And ticker. Plus, the fire in my belly is largely gone.

The fire sometimes comes back, though. We (my wife and I, riding tandem)
were on a pretty leisurely club ride a couple weeks ago. A new young
guy had showed up, and we were riding along chatting with him. He said
he rides to stay in shape for his other sports, etc.

As we talked, one of our club members who's notorious for such behavior
decided to hit high gear and crank away out front for a while, then wait
for the rest of the crew to catch up. When he did that, the newbie
suddenly ended our conversation, saying something like "Excuse me
now..." and took off.

I though "Excuse me???" and told my wife "Let's go." So we reeled him in
and were a comfortable ten feet behind when he caught the rabbit. For
icing on the cake, our rabbit guy (as he always does) left the leisurely
riders for the last five miles or so to crank in at 20 - 25 mph . My
wife and I were close behind, and the newbie was a distant third. It
was quite satisfying.

But with a tandem, terrain is everything. If it weren't fairly flat,
we'd happily ride back with the leisurely crowd.

(P.S. Don't interpret this tale as a claim that I could stick with Jay,
Tom or Duane, let alone James.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I don't know that I've ever actually bought a gel pack. All the ones
I've had have been giveaways at invitational rides, almost entirely from
my own club's rides. Shops give them to the club to pass out to the
riders, and there are often leftovers.

The ride at which they gave the most value was my (only) double century.
I really appreciated the little kick they gave me.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/31/2017 4:09 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> Well, I felt good enough to go out yesterday for a 55 mile ride with about >20 miles of steady or rolling hills, during which time I drank one 24oz bottle of Hammer Heed and a quarter of a 21oz bottle of water -- plus a Cliff Bar.

My ride was about 40 miles, pretty hilly (for me), 85 degrees, sunny and
about 75% humidity. I used up two standard water bottles. I was
definitely ready for the big glass of orange juice and another bottle of
water at the end.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:00:31 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

wrote:

>On 2017-07-29 18:33, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 07:34:09 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-07-28 15:57, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 2:10:10 PM UTC-7, David Scheidt wrote:
>>>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote: :On Thu, 27 Jul
>>>>> 2017 09:39:03 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie :<jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> :> Just two water bottles that I filled every 50 miles.
>>>>>
>>>>> :When I could ride that far, a bottle would last about ten miles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay's a camel.
>>>>
>>>> Not like Jobst. I fill up big bottles. I just don't take more than
>>>> two -- except on rare occasion. When selecting a bike, I don't go
>>>> into the store and ask for an '80s Euro-sport bike with a rack so I
>>>> can haul gallons of water on a day ride.
>>>>
>>>> Joerg has peculiar needs. I'm fine with a couple of bottle bosses
>>>> and 160mm brake rotors on a gravel bike. If I were riding trails in
>>>> the middle of nowhere, I might consider a camel back or some other
>>>> option, but I'm not. I'm never that far from water on a day ride.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.performancebike.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Content_10052_10551_-1_CyclingHydrationGuide
>>>
>>> Quote: "Carry and consume one 16-24oz bottle of plain water, plus one
>>> extra 16-24oz bottle of an energy drink for each hour on the bike".
>>>
>>> Most of my rides are 4-5h and I am a tall guy who is more at the upper
>>> end of the water requirement scale. So there.
>>>
>>> Yes, this also applies to Oregonians since they have a store in Portland :-)
>>

>> Your equation doesn't mention OAT which is critical to the body's
>> water usage. If one were riding in the Mojave desert on the 4th of
>> July your liquid requirement wouldn't be sufficient and if in Nome on
>> Christmas day it would be overkill.
>
>

>It's not my equation, it is recommended by sports medicine guys and they
>know a thing or two about dehydration. I assume they calculated for
>heavy riding where you pump out close to as much as your body will give
>at the current weather conditions. Note they say "per hour", not "per xx
>miles".

If your experts did not mention air temperature and humidity then they
weren't experts.

As an example. When I was stationed at Edwards AFB, in the Mojave
desert, a couple of "rock hounds" got stuck within easy walking
distance of a main highway and decided to walk out to get help. the
collapsed and died before they had walked 3 miles.

On the other hand I can ride 20 km (about 12 miles) in tropical
Thailand without drinking a bit.

The difference, of course, is that in the Mojave desert "summertime"
temperatures can be as high as 120 degrees (F) while in Thailand
average temperatures in the same period may be as high as 80 degrees
(F).

I might also comment that elite marathon runners often cross the
finish line dehydrated from 6 - 7%, so at least some of this hoopala
about hydration just isn't accurate. In fact hyponatremia, caused by
taking in too much water is a potentially fatal condition

By the way, weighing one's self before and after exercise provides a
much better indication of hydration then thirst. The usually accepted
figure is not more then a 2% loss in body weight. Although as
mentioned above, elite runners do exceed that number.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:37:23 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 2:00:33 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>Snipped

>> >> Quote: "Carry and consume one 16-24oz bottle of plain water, plus one
>> >> extra 16-24oz bottle of an energy drink for each hour on the bike".
>> >>

>Snipped

>> It's not my equation, it is recommended by sports medicine guys and they
>> know a thing or two about dehydration. I assume they calculated for
>> heavy riding where you pump out close to as much as your body will give
>> at the current weather conditions. Note they say "per hour", not "per xx
>> miles".
>

>The same sports medicine guys who used to recomend that runners and other athletes drink so much water during exercise that some runners and athletes died of hyponatremia or water intoxication.
>
>Or are those sports medicine guys getting a kickback from the energy drink people?
>

>Cheers

I don't know what they recommend now but the old time scheme was to
drink until one's urine was clear and you were good to go.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:33:56 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 3:02:16 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-07-31 11:31, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

>> > On Saturday, July 29, 2017 at 10:34:00 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>> >> On 2017-07-28 15:57, jbeattie wrote:
>> >>> On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 2:10:10 PM UTC-7, David Scheidt
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote: :On Thu, 27
>> >>>> Jul 2017 09:39:03 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie :<jbeat...@msn.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> :> Just two water bottles that I filled every 50 miles.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> :When I could ride that far, a bottle would last about ten
>> >>>> miles.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Jay's a camel.
>> >>>
>> >>> Not like Jobst. I fill up big bottles. I just don't take more
>> >>> than two -- except on rare occasion. When selecting a bike, I
>> >>> don't go into the store and ask for an '80s Euro-sport bike with
>> >>> a rack so I can haul gallons of water on a day ride.
>> >>>
>> >>> Joerg has peculiar needs. I'm fine with a couple of bottle
>> >>> bosses and 160mm brake rotors on a gravel bike. If I were riding
>> >>> trails in the middle of nowhere, I might consider a camel back or
>> >>> some other option, but I'm not. I'm never that far from water on
>> >>> a day ride.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.performancebike.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Content_10052_10551_-1_CyclingHydrationGuide
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>

>> Quote: "Carry and consume one 16-24oz bottle of plain water, plus one
>> >> extra 16-24oz bottle of an energy drink for each hour on the
>> >> bike".
>> >>

>> >> Most of my rides are 4-5h and I am a tall guy who is more at the
>> >> upper end of the water requirement scale. So there.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, this also applies to Oregonians since they have a store in
>> >> Portland :-)
>> >>

>> >> -- Regards, Joerg
>> >>
>> >> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>> >

>> > That's NUTS! They're teling you that you have to drink an 8 ounces
>> > cup (250 ml) of liquid every FIFTEEN minutes! That's if you use the
>> > smaller 16 0unces capacity NOT the 24 ounces sizes. 2 x 16 = 32
>> > ounces divided by 8 = 4 and 1 hour devided by 4 is 15 minutes. If you
>> > use two 24 ounces bottles you have 48 ounces divided by 4 = 12 ounces
>> > evey fifteen minutes which is 1.5 cups per quarter hour.
>> >
>> > Gads at that rate for a 4 hour + ride you'd dang near need a trailer
>> > just for your liquids!
>> >
>>
>> Over 4-5h of hard MTB riding on a 95-100F day I find that 1-1/2 gallons
>> of liquids is adequate. But not less than that. I could have used more
>> but that's all I had on the bike.
>>
>> I have met plenty of people on trails who thought like you, that this
>> was ridiculous and all that. They did not look too well healthwise and
>> sometimes I gave them one of my bottles. In one case almost all my water
>> because the guy appeared close to heading towards the eternal trails.
>>

>> --
>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>

>Someone on the verge of heat exhaustion or heat stroke is NOT going to be able to exercise after drinking just one 16 ounces bottle of water or energy drink. To give such a person water or energy drink and then leave them is irresponsible.
>

>Cheers

Elite marathon runners, who average slightly over 20 kph for about two
hours normally exceed the often stated "2% weight loss and you lose
efficiency" figure. The usual figure mentioned by good marathoners is
7 - 8 Kg during a marathon. Haile Gebrselassie, world champion at the
time, was weighed before and after he won Dubai in 2009 and lost 9.8%
of his starting body weight. And, timing the top 1,200 top runners at
the Boston Marathon, they actually run faster during the last ten
miles then during the first.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

I'm old and slow. I wouldn't ride with you because you'd be in the middle of the road. I'd keep saying, "hey Frank, get over here. You're going to get whacked." You would scold me for being a gutter bunny, although I don't ride on the fog line and rarely ride anywhere with a gutter. We'd ride up on Joerg who would have a pannier full of water, a couple CPUs and a growler. He'd be complaining about psychopaths in cars and the fact that his Gazelle didn't come with factory rack-mounts and room for 35mm steel belted tires or a o-ring chain. He'd have to stop every fifteen minutes to pee. I don't think this NG would want to ride together.


-- Jay Beattie.

[Duane]

:-)
Imagine that though... lol

[avag...@gmail.com]

slow enough with the new bike review n how you arrived at the gravel geo

your riding background beats us all n you know it.

gravelers ? AM, myself, J ?

CX ?

MTB ?

[Doug Landau]

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 10:56:44 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-07-27 10:50, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I know 5-6 fast commuters but its expensive ...
> >
>
> Like this?
>
> https://corporatejetinvestor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Falcon_8X.jpg

Where was the foto taken?

[avag...@gmail.com]

I give where ?

[Joerg]

No idea. Greece has a lot of such islands but I don't know where they
took the photo.

[Joerg]

If "definitely ready" means you were craving liquids that is a sign that
you were quite dehydrated. Once in a while that shouldn't hurt but
pushing that far on a regular basis can result in long term health
consequences.

I simply avoid such situations by carrying excess. Usually I bring home
20-30oz of unused water or I give some away to folks who didn't carry
enough (there's lots of those).

[Frank Krygowski]

Anyone ever ride with (or even meet) anyone they first got to know
through r.b.*?

I've met several guys I can think of quickly, and almost met one other
one. (That last one, we were going to host on his bike tour until his
route had to change.) I hosted two other r.b.* denizens at various
times, and was hosted by one other one on one of our tours. Another few
were at one or more cycling advocacy events I attended - although come
to think of it, I may have encountered those guys on other discussion
groups.

Online, I had generally agreed with most of these guys on most topics.
One or two guys and I had very different opinions on one particular
topic, but in each case, meeting the guys in person and riding with them
was very pleasant indeed.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Many push themselves way too hard and endanger their long term health.
It can also end like this:

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/an-exhausted-runner-falls-to-the-ground-after-crossing-the-news-photo/522295640#an-exhausted-runner-falls-to-the-ground-after-crossing-the-finish-of-picture-id522295640

Ot this:

http://www.granfondoguide.com/Contents/Index/1952/norwegian-rider-iver-knotten-collapses-whilst-riding-the-worlds-junior-road-race