Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

[sms]

My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it
apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for
it to stop working that soon. These lights don't have user-replaceable
batteries, but by removing two screws I was able to open it, and the
battery pack does have a connector on it so at least they didn't solder
it directly to the printed circuit board.

It's a 2 cell 18650 pack with the batteries in parallel, and a
protection circuit board shared between the two cells. The cells are
allegedly 2800mAH, for a total of 5600mAH. The closest I could find
on-line was a 2x2600mAH parallel pack
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/product/B003SH4BV6>.

I moved the connector from the old pack to the new pack, plugged it in,
and closed it up. Seems to work fine now.

[Ian Field]

"sms" <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:p5cti2$gt8$1...@dont-email.me...

My favourite is recycle bin rescues - with a £0 price tag; life expectancy
isn't something to get traumatised about.

Most laptop packs are 2 or 3P-3S, you can split them up as series or
parallel pairs A/R.

[Joerg]

In many areas they won't let you dive into recycling bins. You'd almost
have to lie in wait, dart out and yell "Yo, don't hand over that laptop
just yet!". Otherwise when it's in there it's in there and not coming
back out.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it
> apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for
> it to stop working that soon.

Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
going and going and going...

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

And I doubt that your generators cost $150 ($180 with a box) either
:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:52:50 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it
>apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for
>it to stop working that soon. These lights don't have user-replaceable
>batteries, but by removing two screws I was able to open it, and the
>battery pack does have a connector on it so at least they didn't solder
>it directly to the printed circuit board.

I don't see a problem. If your wife used the light every day for
about 2 years, that would be 730 charge cycles. That's about the
correct lifetime for a 60% DoD (depth of discharge). See table 2:
<http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries>

Charging the batteries in parallel with a 2A USB charger is also about
right. For two alleged 2800mA-hr cells in parallel, that would be
about 0.35C charge which is quite safe.

I've found that the cells that die quickly are usually helped along by
a charge circuit that overcharges the battery. 4.2v should be the
absolute maximum. LiIon loses about 10% of it's capacity during the
initial rapid discharge from 4.2 to 4.0V. While I don't like losing
the 10%, the battery will last much longer if only charged to 4.0v.
Charging to 3.92v yields the best compromise between two failure
mechanisms (electrolyte oxidation and growing crud on the anode). See
"summary" section:
<http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die>

>It's a 2 cell 18650 pack with the batteries in parallel, and a
>protection circuit board shared between the two cells. The cells are
>allegedly 2800mAH, for a total of 5600mAH.

Seems rather high. Note that batteries are tested at a 0.2C
discharge, which yields larger numbers than the usual headlight
discharge rate. The Lezyne Deca 1500XXL claims 1500 lumens, which
also seems a bit high. Assuming 120 lumens/watt at a nominal
3.7V/battery, that's:
1500 / 120 / 3.7 = 3.4A
to run the headlight at full brightness, or 1.7A per cell.
Meanwhile, the cell capacity is tested at:
0.2 * 2800 = 0.56A

>The closest I could find
>on-line was a 2x2600mAH parallel pack
><https://www.amazon.com/dp/product/B003SH4BV6>.

Notice that his version:
<https://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Li-ion-2200mAh-Rechargeable-Battery/dp/B002Y2LJW0/>
is series connected, but claims only 2200ma-hr. Kinda looks like the
same cells, but wired differently. Looks like the one you purchased
might be lying about the battery capacity. You'll find out soon
enough if the battery is discharged faster than expected.

Ready to buy a battery discharge tester
<http://www.westmountainradio.com/cba.php>
and a lux meter?
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/391973339920>
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/401324425264>

>I moved the connector from the old pack to the new pack, plugged it in,
>and closed it up. Seems to work fine now.

Yeah, for how long will it work? Dig out your digital volts-guesser
and measure the EoC (end of charge) voltage. If it's over 4.2v, that
may be why it died early. Also, see how long it will run. You don't
want it going out prematurely on the initial test run. Maybe carry a
2nd headlight for the initial testing.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Tosspot]

I bet the lights don't, as he peers at a collection of CYOs[1] and a
recently defunct Flat-S. Tbf the Flat S is around 7 years old.

[1] Not one lasted 18 months, they simply aren't waterproof imho.

[sms]

On 2/6/2018 8:48 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Notice that his version:
> <https://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Li-ion-2200mAh-Rechargeable-Battery/dp/B002Y2LJW0/>
> is series connected, but claims only 2200ma-hr. Kinda looks like the
> same cells, but wired differently. Looks like the one you purchased
> might be lying about the battery capacity. You'll find out soon
> enough if the battery is discharged faster than expected.

Tenergy has several different 18650 cells at different capacities.

I guess I should have gotten these 9800maH 18650 cells:
<https://www.walmart.com/ip/8-pcs-Universal-18650-3-7V-9800-mAh-Rechargeable-Lithium-Batteries-Tip-Main-Batery-Cell-For-Flashlight-Torch-Camera/866646151>.
9800mAH and only $1 each. But I'm waiting for the new 10,000 mAH cells.

[AMuzi]

My regular glass bulb lamps go 6~8 years between bulb
failure in daily use. YMMV

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[jbeattie]

My generator and light cost almost five times the price of my little L&M Urban 800 all-in-one, which produces more light. Hub was $110 on sale at Western Bikeworks (SP PD8), and the Luxos B was around $120 OTC from Clever Cycles in Portland. Throw in time for building front wheel. I got the all in one on sale for around $45.

Now, the battery life on the Urban sucks, and forgetting to charge is a reality -- so it's not as convenient as a dyno light, but I can switch it around between bikes. I've been switching between two bikes for commuting lately due to mechanical issues. One bike has a through-axle and the other doesn't, so switching dyno lights would be impossible. I'd need a dyno hub with 15mm through axle which, on its own, can cost as much as $200. I would also have to get a handlebar mount since there is no through hole on the crown of either of my disc bikes. I miss that and once I get a bar mount, I'll go back to using my Luxos B on the commuter, but I'll also use my little flea-watt back up blinky on the bar. I think low watt flashers or pulsing (rather than bursting flash-bulb) flashers are good in urban bicycle and car traffic.



-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/7/2018 10:22 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 7:16:12 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 21:56:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
>>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it
>>>> apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for
>>>> it to stop working that soon.
>>>
>>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
>>> going and going and going...
>>
>> And I doubt that your generators cost $150 ($180 with a box) either
>> :-)
>
> My generator and light cost almost five times the price of my little L&M Urban 800 all-in-one, which produces more light. Hub was $110 on sale at Western Bikeworks (SP PD8), and the Luxos B was around $120 OTC from Clever Cycles in Portland. Throw in time for building front wheel. I got the all in one on sale for around $45.

Hub dynos can be a significant expense, but they are not the only
choice. One does not always need their advantages.

My touring bike and our tandem have bottle dynos with good B&M
headlights. Those bottle dynos were free, decades ago. The one on my
touring bike is occasionally starting to rattle a bit (I think a bearing
is going) but it's usually perfect. When I get annoyed enough, I'll
replace it with another free one from my junk box.

My wife's touring bike and two of our folding bikes have roller dynos.
They work especially well for folders because they are compact and well
protected. I bought one of those roller units brand new in about 1979. I
think another was bought used, and I know one was given to me. So
overall, my dyno expenses are minimal.

Granted, bottle dynos might slip in heavy rain if not well adjusted.
Rollers will slip in mud. But those shortcomings are unimportant to most
cyclists.

Jay, I think your riding conditions are at the far right of some bell
curve. You do fast sport riding over long distances, you commute almost
every day in all weather, you commute over tough hills and dirt paths,
you ride in dense traffic, you maintain a stable of bikes...

Very few cyclists do all those things. Very few really need the high
efficiency and extreme reliability of a hub dyno. Very few need
multi-hundred-lumen headlights. I think almost all cyclists would do
fine with an old-tech dyno and a good (not top-of-the-line) B&M
headlight. It wouldn't cost them an arm and a leg.

And it wouldn't require hacker-style electronic repair in three years.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I had one off-brand dyno LED headlight quit. Oddly enough, the LED
itself died while the light was less than a year old. The company had
stopped selling it - gee, I wonder why? - so they gave me a battery
light in exchange. Just for kicks, I replaced the dyno light's LED
myself and it still works.

But I'm not qualified to comment on waterproofing of Cyo lights. I have
a couple, but they're mounted under my handlebar bags. They don't get
very wet even on the unusual occasions when I ride at night in the rain.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

I intend to go back to a dyno on my commuter, and if I had a single transportation bike, it would have a dyno. Also, my Urban 800 is under-powered for heavy rain, and the battery life at full output is pitiful. For stormy nights, I'd use something with a higher output or just cope with riding by Braille.

I don't think my riding pattern is unusual in this city, except for the stable of bikes thing and the fact that the new bikes have odd-ball axle and fork crown issues. If I had not gotten a free replacement CX frame for my commuter, I would have rebuilt the commuter on something different -- maybe even one of the Somas like the Fogcutter, which is a really cool frame with a threaded BB, discs and all the braze-ons one could hope for.

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 2/7/2018 7:01 AM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> My regular glass bulb lamps...

I read about those in my history book.

[sms]

On 2/7/2018 7:22 AM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> My generator and light cost almost five times the price of my little L&M Urban 800 all-in-one, which produces more light. Hub was $110 on sale at Western Bikeworks (SP PD8), and the Luxos B was around $120 OTC from Clever Cycles in Portland. Throw in time for building front wheel. I got the all in one on sale for around $45.
>
> Now, the battery life on the Urban sucks, and forgetting to charge is a reality -- so it's not as convenient as a dyno light, but I can switch it around between bikes. I've been switching between two bikes for commuting lately due to mechanical issues. One bike has a through-axle and the other doesn't, so switching dyno lights would be impossible. I'd need a dyno hub with 15mm through axle which, on its own, can cost as much as $200. I would also have to get a handlebar mount since there is no through hole on the crown of either of my disc bikes. I miss that and once I get a bar mount, I'll go back to using my Luxos B on the commuter, but I'll also use my little flea-watt back up blinky on the bar. I think low watt flashers or pulsing (rather than bursting flash-bulb) flashers are good in urban bicycle and car traffic.

When the Lezyne battery pack failed (and it failed completely, not just
lower capacity), we were about to go out on a ride. I gave my identical
light to the spousal unit, and I relied on my dynamo light with hub
dynamo. It was a day ride so it was no big deal, but there was no way
anyone would want to be out on that unlit MUP at night with only a
dynamo light. It's very dark with a lot of twists and turns, and ups and
downs. I'd estimate that about 70% of the riders on the MUP had DRLs
going. The dynamo light on my road bike is not a high-end dynamo light
(that's on my Dahon folder), but it is the only commercially available
dynamo light with a flashing DRL. It's enough to stay legal and be seen
<https://www.planetbike.com/store/blaze-dynamo-sl-bike-headlight.html>.

And yes, adequate dynamo lights are very expensive, not just because of
the light itself, but because of the high cost of a wheel with a dynamo hub.

One advantage of the Oculus light from Barry is that it uses standard
size button-top Li-Ion batteries
<https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91CXQCE95lL._SL1500_.jpg>
that are easily user replaceable . With the Lezyne, you could carry some
extra battery packs but you really would not want to be taking the light
apart to change the battery while on a ride. It's very water-proof with
O-rings in three places that you'd have to get back in place, and one of
the screws holding it together is a very small Torx screw.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 06:38:29 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 2/6/2018 8:48 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>> Notice that his version:
>> <https://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Li-ion-2200mAh-Rechargeable-Battery/dp/B002Y2LJW0/>
>> is series connected, but claims only 2200ma-hr. Kinda looks like the
>> same cells, but wired differently. Looks like the one you purchased
>> might be lying about the battery capacity. You'll find out soon
>> enough if the battery is discharged faster than expected.

>Tenergy has several different 18650 cells at different capacities.

Yes, that's possible.

>I guess I should have gotten these 9800maH 18650 cells:
><https://www.walmart.com/ip/8-pcs-Universal-18650-3-7V-9800-mAh-Rechargeable-Lithium-Batteries-Tip-Main-Batery-Cell-For-Flashlight-Torch-Camera/866646151>.
>9800mAH and only $1 each. But I'm waiting for the new 10,000 mAH cells.

I have some Belchfire brand 5800 ma-hr cells that cost me about $1 on
eBay. At 1.5A, they deliver 890 ma-hr.
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/battery-tests/18650.jpg>
My theory is that the actual capacity is inversely proportional to the
advertised capacity.

No need to wait for 10K LiIon cells. By merely misusing an existing
overpriced product:
<http://store.caig.com/s.nl/it.A/id.2847/.f>
you can reduce or eliminate the losses from cell contact resistance
sufficiently to deliver a 10K LiIon cell. Only $150/7.4mL. It should
have about the same performance improvement as soldering the battery
contact spring in a LiIon flashlight, but without the bother of
learning how to solder properly:
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=flashlight+solder+spring&oq=flashlight+solder+spring>
Admittedly, such performance enhancements are most useful for high
power lighting, but if only 10% of the bicycle lighting sales
predictions are credible, we will soon be riding around with megalumen
headlights.

I'm anxiously waiting for a copper or brass bicycle light (to further
reduce resistive losses in the aluminum package):
<https://www.google.com/search?q=copper+flashlight&tbm=isch>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=brass+flashlight&tbm=isch>
After those, we can try a silver plated bicycle light.

[sms]

On 2/6/2018 8:48 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:52:50 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it
>> apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for
>> it to stop working that soon. These lights don't have user-replaceable
>> batteries, but by removing two screws I was able to open it, and the
>> battery pack does have a connector on it so at least they didn't solder
>> it directly to the printed circuit board.
>
> I don't see a problem. If your wife used the light every day for
> about 2 years, that would be 730 charge cycles. That's about the
> correct lifetime for a 60% DoD (depth of discharge). See table 2:
> <http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries>

Not nearly every day. I'd estimate about 200 total charge/discharge
cycles. Something failed in the battery pack because it wasn't like the
operating time was less than when new, the pack would not charge at all.

> Charging the batteries in parallel with a 2A USB charger is also about
> right. For two alleged 2800mA-hr cells in parallel, that would be
> about 0.35C charge which is quite safe.
>
> I've found that the cells that die quickly are usually helped along by
> a charge circuit that overcharges the battery. 4.2v should be the
> absolute maximum. LiIon loses about 10% of it's capacity during the
> initial rapid discharge from 4.2 to 4.0V. While I don't like losing
> the 10%, the battery will last much longer if only charged to 4.0v.
> Charging to 3.92v yields the best compromise between two failure
> mechanisms (electrolyte oxidation and growing crud on the anode). See
> "summary" section:
> <http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die>

The charge voltage was correct. And of course the protection circuit in
he pack ensures that the charge voltage doesn't exceed 4.2V, regardless
of what the charging circuit voltage actually is.

>> It's a 2 cell 18650 pack with the batteries in parallel, and a
>> protection circuit board shared between the two cells. The cells are
>> allegedly 2800mAH, for a total of 5600mAH.
>
> Seems rather high. Note that batteries are tested at a 0.2C
> discharge, which yields larger numbers than the usual headlight
> discharge rate. The Lezyne Deca 1500XXL claims 1500 lumens, which
> also seems a bit high. Assuming 120 lumens/watt at a nominal
> 3.7V/battery, that's:
> 1500 / 120 / 3.7 = 3.4A
> to run the headlight at full brightness, or 1.7A per cell.
> Meanwhile, the cell capacity is tested at:
> 0.2 * 2800 = 0.56A

This is the battery in the original pack:
<http://www.gebc-energy.com/Uploadfile/pdf/ICR18650/ICR18650H3.pdf>

I disassembled the pack. The batteries are completely discharged, 0V. To
me this indicates a failure of the protection circuit which normally
would not allow discharge below 2.8V.

>> The closest I could find
>> on-line was a 2x2600mAH parallel pack
>> <https://www.amazon.com/dp/product/B003SH4BV6>.
>
> Notice that his version:
> <https://www.amazon.com/Tenergy-Li-ion-2200mAh-Rechargeable-Battery/dp/B002Y2LJW0/>
> is series connected, but claims only 2200ma-hr. Kinda looks like the
> same cells, but wired differently. Looks like the one you purchased
> might be lying about the battery capacity. You'll find out soon
> enough if the battery is discharged faster than expected.

Do any manufacturers not lie? It's a matter of degree. Tenergy is an
industrial supplier of batteries with a real building in Fremont, and
not like buying no-name batteries on Aliexpress.

> Ready to buy a battery discharge tester
> <http://www.westmountainradio.com/cba.php>
> and a lux meter?
> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/391973339920>
> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/401324425264>
>
>> I moved the connector from the old pack to the new pack, plugged it in,
>> and closed it up. Seems to work fine now.
>
> Yeah, for how long will it work? Dig out your digital volts-guesser
> and measure the EoC (end of charge) voltage. If it's over 4.2v, that
> may be why it died early. Also, see how long it will run. You don't
> want it going out prematurely on the initial test run. Maybe carry a
> 2nd headlight for the initial testing.

The charge voltage from the plug that connects to the battery was
4.19V. I checked that before I ordered a new battery because I thought
that the problem with the light might have been with the charging circuitry.

The measured lumens by mtbr.com of the Deca Drive XXL was 1390, so they
were not using chilumens
<https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chilumen>, and there
was minimal lunmenflation
<https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lumenflation>.

This morning I put the light on the maximum setting and it ran for just
about exactly two hours before it stepped down the intensity.

5200 mAH [rated]
3.7 V [rated]
19.24 Watt-Hours [calculated]
2.0 Hours [measured]
9.62 Watts [calculated]
2.6 Amps [calculated]
1390 lumens [measured by mtbr.com]
144.5 lumens/watt [calculated]
3 LEDs
48.2 lumens/LED [calculated]

Of course the reality is that the batteries were not fully discharged
when it dropped the output, so the lumens per watt was likely quite a
bit higher.

I like the design of the Lezyne and how they use 3 LEDs to mitigate
thermal issues, as well as to give a more usable beam pattern that
includes sufficient side illumination. Definitely NOT StVZO
<https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=stvzo>. What some
people don't understand is that optics are very important in bicycle
lights where you are dealing with a limited amount of battery or dynamo
power.

The Lezyne also shows you whether you're connected to a low-power USB
port (500mA) or a 2A USB port. The charging LED is green for low power,
blue for high power. You don't need their 2A charger, any 2A charger
will do. This is the one I use: <https://www.frys.com/product/8335977>.

[Tosspot]

That ain't bad, and ime I'd expect a good few years from a filament
bulb. I like LEDs because they are bright, and take little power.

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
news:fduk9c...@mid.individual.net...

Most don't take any notice - one that said no has the bin next to customer
service desk, reconnaissance on the way in - anything interest and i make
use of the seating and wait for the clerk to nip out.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 11:23:23 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>This is the battery in the original pack:
><http://www.gebc-energy.com/Uploadfile/pdf/ICR18650/ICR18650H3.pdf>

4.3V max seems rather high and unsafe.

>I disassembled the pack. The batteries are completely discharged, 0V. To
>me this indicates a failure of the protection circuit which normally
>would not allow discharge below 2.8V.

0V is an important clue. The undervoltage CID (current interrupt
device) protection of the battery has kicked in and disconnected the
positive terminal. How to recover:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWmu3U7tndA>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w3Tv1Jg0ps>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9BTNrJ0C_U>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OKz3LpNHRg>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deDP7Q3v3xA>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOi0hepEtYo>
I see this 0V problem quite often on brand new clone laptop battery
packs. I use a small jewelers screwdriver to recover.

I don't know exactly why the CID tripped, but my guess(tm) is that the
BMS (battery management system) has a low voltage trip point BELOW the
voltage of where the CID trips. The BMS probably has an accurate low
voltage disconnect voltage of 3.00vą0.1V. However, the CID on the
battery is a mechanical device which can vary. I do not currently
have numbers on it's trip voltage but if it's over 3.00V, the CID will
trip before the BMS.

>Do any manufacturers not lie?

Everyone lies, but that's ok because nobody listens.

>It's a matter of degree. Tenergy is an
>industrial supplier of batteries with a real building in Fremont, and
>not like buying no-name batteries on Aliexpress.

Yep. I have quite a few Tenergy battery packs and chargers mostly
purchased from HobbyKing. Two of the really simple chargers blew up
and killed some battery packs. The batteries have been fine. All of
them met their capacity specs (tested at 0.2C).

>The charge voltage from the plug that connects to the battery was
>4.19V. I checked that before I ordered a new battery because I thought
>that the problem with the light might have been with the charging circuitry.

The BMS overvoltage disconnects the battery at 4.28Vą0.025V so you're
probably ok with the charger. I prefer a lower voltage for the EoC in
order to get a longer battery life.

>This morning I put the light on the maximum setting and it ran for just
>about exactly two hours before it stepped down the intensity.
>
>5200 mAH [rated]
>3.7 V [rated]
>19.24 Watt-Hours [calculated]
>2.0 Hours [measured]
>9.62 Watts [calculated]
>2.6 Amps [calculated]
>1390 lumens [measured by mtbr.com]
>144.5 lumens/watt [calculated]
>3 LEDs
>48.2 lumens/LED [calculated]
>
>Of course the reality is that the batteries were not fully discharged
>when it dropped the output, so the lumens per watt was likely quite a
>bit higher.

Those numbers look quite sane. The 144.5 lumens/watt seems a bit
high, especially when measured through a lens, but are not
outrageously inflated.

[Frank Krygowski]

Scharf's dictionary editing reminds me of this Dilbert strip:

http://dilbert.com/strip/2009-05-08

> What some
> people don't understand is that optics are very important in bicycle
> lights where you are dealing with a limited amount of battery or dynamo
> power.

What I don't understand is that you say that now, yet you've spent years
lobbying in favor of systems that shine half of their lumens at overhead
aircraft, instead of where they're really needed.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tosspot]

On 07/02/18 20:23, sms wrote:
> On 2/6/2018 8:48 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:52:50 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it
>>> apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for
>>> it to stop working that soon. These lights don't have user-replaceable
>>> batteries, but by removing two screws I was able to open it, and the
>>> battery pack does have a connector on it so at least they didn't solder
>>> it directly to the printed circuit board.
>>
>> I don't see a problem.  If your wife used the light every day for
>> about 2 years, that would be 730 charge cycles.  That's about the
>> correct lifetime for a 60% DoD (depth of discharge).  See table 2:
>> <http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries>

Just adding to this, a lot of people don't realise LiIon batteries die
without doing anything to them. In other words, you can't just simply
count recharge cycles if they are infrequent.

https://batteryworkshop.msfc.nasa.gov/presentations/Stor_Char_LiIon_Batt_KBugga.pdf

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 07:07:29 +0100, Tosspot <Frank...@gmail.com>
wrote:

That's for LiIon batteries that might be used in a space mission,
where long "storage" life, until needed, it important. Even so,
NASA's own conclusion (at end of report) does not suggest that the
cells self destruct without doing anything to them:

Lithium ion cells have thus far shown impressive storage
characteristics at low to warm storage temperatures
– Over 90% capacity available at ambient and low storage
temperatures.
– Retain good low temperature capability after storage.
– Marginal increase in the impedance, possibly from cathode
interface.
• Lithium ion batteries show good promise to meet the needs
of long-life space missions (or terrestrial applications, e,g
biomedical) but require continued validation from such
real-time tests.

The "continued validation" means:
"More research is necessary. Send funding".

What I've found in my disorganized testing is that I can throw a few
charged LiIon batteries into my dashboard glove compartment, located
to top of the dashboard where the sun can easily turn it into an oven,
cram the battery into my cell phone or flashlight, and get about 90%
of the capacity of a freshly charged battery. I've been doing such
battery rotation with cell phone batteries for about 10 years without
any problems. I've also been doing it with 18650 and 14500 flashlight
cells for about 2 years, also without any problems.

[Joerg]

In the country you live in maybe. In the US there may be a nasty
surprise waiting when trying to leave the store with the treasure, later
followed by a police cruiser for a ride into town but not to the
destination you intended.

[Tosspot]

Keep them cool and they last better. Ime, it doesn't really add up to
much because with daily usage i.e. phone, they begin to noticeably die
about the three year mark anyway. And they are a damn sight better that
NiCads!

[Joerg]

Until you get to a red traffic light, to a stop sign or into a traffic
jam. The perfect spot at night to get hit by a car driver who didn't see
you because you were on the only unlit vehicle around.

I have 4-5h of juice on the road bike. If that ever drops off it'll cost
me around $20 to replace the Li-Ion battery pack.

[Joerg]

Ye olde 2.4W + 0.6W with a dynamo? When riding at a good clip, meaning
north of 15mph, those never lasted much longer than a month for me. Even
if they didn't blow their filament right away the bulbs turned black
inside and became dimmer than they were already to begin with. When I
was a teenager I started equipping my bikes with what the automotive
industry already understood over 100 years ago, brighter lights, a
battery and charging system. Soon the German police wanted to give me a
ticket for "non-standard" lighting. Luckily by that time I was a Dutch
resident and they had to let me go.

Those 2.4W bulbs were a joke. My bikes (after my teenage years) always
had better lighting than that. Now it's all LED on my bikes but the real
stuff with more than 500 lumens.

[Joerg]

That depends on the kind of rain. Sideways rain, big old fat rain,
upside down rain :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ihL_FrFPs

[AMuzi]

For years with a Margil cover or, after a Krygowski mod with
O ring, and without a switch (always on) I have no
complaints about function or longevity. YMMV.

[Joerg]

On 2018-02-06 20:48, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:52:50 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>

[...]

>> It's a 2 cell 18650 pack with the batteries in parallel, and a
>> protection circuit board shared between the two cells. The cells are
>> allegedly 2800mAH, for a total of 5600mAH.
>
> Seems rather high.

Probably a Chinese spec :-)

Just like with lights where there are lumens and then there are Chilumens.


> ... Note that batteries are tested at a 0.2C

> discharge, which yields larger numbers than the usual headlight
> discharge rate. The Lezyne Deca 1500XXL claims 1500 lumens, which
> also seems a bit high. Assuming 120 lumens/watt at a nominal
> 3.7V/battery, that's:
> 1500 / 120 / 3.7 = 3.4A
> to run the headlight at full brightness, or 1.7A per cell.
> Meanwhile, the cell capacity is tested at:
> 0.2 * 2800 = 0.56A
>

Classic American answer: Then you need a bigger battery. On my road bike
I use eight 18650 cells, four in parallel and two of those packs in
series so the current on the cable to the front light doesn't exceed 1A,
at least not by much.

My MTB has to make do with four cells but except for short bursts on
city streets or fast county roads I drop that down from 8W to 3W or
sometimes even 1.5W in front.

I ride all roads in car traffic with lights, day and night, and then
usually at full bore. Bike paths sans DRL, singletrack with just the
front light lit so dirt bikers see me.

[...]

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/8/2018 2:59 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-02-06 18:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking
>>> it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too
>>> good for it to stop working that soon.
>>
>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
>> going and going and going...
>>
>
> Until you get to a red traffic light, to a stop sign or into a traffic
> jam. The perfect spot at night to get hit by a car driver who didn't see
> you because you were on the only unlit vehicle around.

Yes, Joerg, we know: "Danger! Danger!"

First, I've been riding regularly at night since roughly 1977. The event
you describe has never come close to happening to me. At a red light or
stop sign, the motorists behind me are coming to a stop anyway; plus my
bike has reflectors.

Second, if you're really that terrified, it's easy to put a $5 blinkie
powered by AA cells on the back of a bike. That's perfectly adequate for
the fearsom scenario you imagine.

Gawd, you're afraid of traffic! What a wimp.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

How much does that O-ring reduce the drag? In the old days (with a real
power bus on the bike) I often rode the first miles with the dynamo off
because of the drag. I only put it back to the wheel when the "steam
gauge needle" (remember those?) got too close to the red range.

Last time I was in Germany they didn't have the old covers anymore and
on EBay they want a small fortune for those plastic thingies:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Margil-Dynamo-Cover-Vintage-Bike-Light-French-Herse-Singer-routens-19-NOS-x-10/312037616264

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:fe3gs6...@mid.individual.net...

Someone might drop packaged security tagged batteries in there.

I ignore any such finds, today I scored a wad of assorted button cell cards
that had half of them been used - they were clearly not straight from the
shelves to the bin.

One store has the recycle box under the display hooks - stock regularly
falls in there, it doesn't take a genius to figure out.

[Ian Field]

"Tosspot" <Frank...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:F-ednWaCJu06z-bH...@giganews.com...

With Miller bottle dynamos - the rear bulb blew on the first hill you went
down.

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:fe3oha...@mid.individual.net...

> On 2018-02-06 18:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking
>>> it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too
>>> good for it to stop working that soon.
>>
>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
>> going and going and going...
>>
>
> Until you get to a red traffic light, to a stop sign or into a traffic
> jam. The perfect spot at night to get hit by a car driver who didn't see
> you because you were on the only unlit vehicle around.

AFAIK: dynamo lighting is illegal in the UK for exactly that reason.

The wording leaves much ambiguities about using a dynamo to maintain
rechargeable batteries.

Its probably "technically" still an offence.

[Joerg]

No, just the regular recycling stuff. It's illegal to pilfer and carry
out. Plus the store wants to avoid it for liability and fraud reasons.
All it takes is the hidden security camera trained on that bin and
they'll nail you at the entrance.

> I ignore any such finds, today I scored a wad of assorted button cell
> cards that had half of them been used - they were clearly not straight
> from the shelves to the bin.
>
> One store has the recycle box under the display hooks - stock regularly
> falls in there, it doesn't take a genius to figure out.

Out here they are usually at the waste company's recycling centers, in
our case located behind a supermarket. They do not allow take-outs.

[Ian Field]

"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:p5ict0$783$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 2/8/2018 2:59 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-02-06 18:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
>>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking
>>>> it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too
>>>> good for it to stop working that soon.
>>>
>>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
>>> going and going and going...
>>>
>>
>> Until you get to a red traffic light, to a stop sign or into a traffic
>> jam. The perfect spot at night to get hit by a car driver who didn't see
>> you because you were on the only unlit vehicle around.
>
> Yes, Joerg, we know: "Danger! Danger!"
>
> First, I've been riding regularly at night since roughly 1977. The event
> you describe has never come close to happening to me. At a red light or
> stop sign, the motorists behind me are coming to a stop anyway; plus my
> bike has reflectors.

Recently found what was left of a rear-ended bicycle chucked on the grass
verge not far from traffic lights last time I went to the next town.

[Ian Field]

"sms" <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote in message

news:p5fjnb$vrt$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 2/6/2018 8:48 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:52:50 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking it
>>> apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too good for
>>> it to stop working that soon. These lights don't have user-replaceable
>>> batteries, but by removing two screws I was able to open it, and the
>>> battery pack does have a connector on it so at least they didn't solder
>>> it directly to the printed circuit board.
>>
>> I don't see a problem. If your wife used the light every day for
>> about 2 years, that would be 730 charge cycles. That's about the
>> correct lifetime for a 60% DoD (depth of discharge). See table 2:
>> <http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries>
>
> Not nearly every day. I'd estimate about 200 total charge/discharge
> cycles. Something failed in the battery pack because it wasn't like the
> operating time was less than when new, the pack would not charge at all.

Memory effect is usual on nickel chemistry batteries that are regularly only
partly discharged - not so far heard of it on lithium.

[Ian Field]

"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:f34n7dt4mhho8fieg...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 11:23:23 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>>This is the battery in the original pack:
>><http://www.gebc-energy.com/Uploadfile/pdf/ICR18650/ICR18650H3.pdf>
>
> 4.3V max seems rather high and unsafe.
>
>>I disassembled the pack. The batteries are completely discharged, 0V. To
>>me this indicates a failure of the protection circuit which normally
>>would not allow discharge below 2.8V.

Automatic polarity protection - it needs a little voltage to tell which way
round it is.

Passing current with a car headlamp bulb in series with a 12V battery
usually gets enough voltage lift for detection.

[Joerg]

On 2018-02-08 14:05, Ian Field wrote:
>
>
> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
> news:fe3oha...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 2018-02-06 18:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
>>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking
>>>> it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too
>>>> good for it to stop working that soon.
>>>
>>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
>>> going and going and going...
>>>
>>
>> Until you get to a red traffic light, to a stop sign or into a traffic
>> jam. The perfect spot at night to get hit by a car driver who didn't
>> see you because you were on the only unlit vehicle around.
>
> AFAIK: dynamo lighting is illegal in the UK for exactly that reason.
>

All it takes is you standing in the left turn lane and some soused guy
in a hurry cutting across that area, seeing you about one second before
impact. Of course, Frank won't understand that but luckily your
lawmakers did.

> The wording leaves much ambiguities about using a dynamo to maintain
> rechargeable batteries.
>
> Its probably "technically" still an offence.

It used to be much worse in Germany. They did not allow having a real
power bus on a bicycle because it didn't have some StVZO number or some
such nonsense. Luckily by the time they caught me I had my residence in
the Netherlands so they had to let me ride on, not matter how peeved
they were.

[Joerg]

Out here there is usually a cross, flowers and the surviving front wheel
leaned against it.

It always amazes me how many cyclists are on roads after dusk and in
dreary weather without even a blinking light in back. Or with one where
the batteries are most likely already oozing.

[Joerg]

On 2018-02-07 07:22, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 7:16:12 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:

>> On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 21:56:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
>>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all.
>>>> Taking it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July
>>>> 2015. Not too good for it to stop working that soon.
>>>
>>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just
>>> keep going and going and going...
>>

>> And I doubt that your generators cost $150 ($180 with a box)
>> either :-)
>
> My generator and light cost almost five times the price of my little
> L&M Urban 800 all-in-one, which produces more light. Hub was $110 on
> sale at Western Bikeworks (SP PD8), and the Luxos B was around $120
> OTC from Clever Cycles in Portland. Throw in time for building front
> wheel. I got the all in one on sale for around $45.
>
> Now, the battery life on the Urban sucks, and forgetting to charge is
> a reality -- so it's not as convenient as a dyno light, ...


That is where external batteries shine. The one on my MTB is inside a
sturdy ABS box which is bolted down in a protected location (on the
custome-made rear strut) so it can take the rock hits and occasional
crashes. The one on the road bike rides in the right pannier though
eventually that'll also get an ABS box underneath the rack. The road
bike has 8x 18650 Li-Ion, the MTB has half that. I can ride 4-5h on the
road bike with full lighting which should suffice even for longhaul
commuters. My rides are usually in that range. When I return home the
bike gets parked and plugged in. Simple, just like people with electric
vehicle do. You could have a 2nd pack at the office though I don't see
the need.

With light I mean serious light, MagicShine class. All the
self-contained flea-watt thingies I've owned and have seen so far can't
compete. The ones I owned all broke in due course when riding on rough
terrain. External battery packs are cheap at around $20. What helps to
keep them in good health for many years is not to top them off to 100%
but have the charger cut off at 90% or a little less.

I keep both bike batteries charged at all times. So yesterday when I
decided spur of the moment to use the MTB instead of the road bike all I
had to do was to transfer the toolkit and lock over to the (identical)
right pannier, hop on and head out into the wild yonder.


> ... but I can
> switch it around between bikes. I've been switching between two
> bikes for commuting lately due to mechanical issues. One bike has a
> through-axle and the other doesn't, so switching dyno lights would be
> impossible. I'd need a dyno hub with 15mm through axle which, on its
> own, can cost as much as $200.


IMO not worth it. They probably also weigh as much as a decent external
battery.


> ... I would also have to get a handlebar
> mount since there is no through hole on the crown of either of my
> disc bikes.


Handlebar mount is better anyhow. It puts the light higher so drivers
can see you better, often even through the windows of other cars. The
only time a lower mount is better is in fog but then I'd go even lower
and mount an extra light at axle height. We don't have fog often enough
to warrant that effort.

The most impressive light was a MagicShine on steroids on the helmet of
a road bike rider. I thought a Union Pacific locomotive was coming.


> ... I miss that and once I get a bar mount, I'll go back to
> using my Luxos B on the commuter, but I'll also use my little
> flea-watt back up blinky on the bar. I think low watt flashers or
> pulsing (rather than bursting flash-bulb) flashers are good in urban
> bicycle and car traffic.
>

A blinky back-up is a good idea. Not at night though.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 4:14:47 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-02-08 12:20, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 2/8/2018 2:08 PM, Joerg wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Those 2.4W bulbs were a joke. My bikes (after my teenage
> >> years) always had better lighting than that. Now it's all
> >> LED on my bikes but the real stuff with more than 500 lumens.
> >>
> >
> > For years with a Margil cover or, after a Krygowski mod with O ring, and
> > without a switch (always on) I have no complaints about function or
> > longevity. YMMV.
> >
>
> How much does that O-ring reduce the drag? In the old days (with a real
> power bus on the bike) I often rode the first miles with the dynamo off
> because of the drag. I only put it back to the wheel when the "steam
> gauge needle" (remember those?) got too close to the red range.

First, the terrors of dyno drag are mostly a myth. This article deals with it:
http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html
"the slowing down has more to do with psychology than the actual power required
to turn it."
and
"All of the generators were easier to turn than riding up a 1 in 300 slope.
Another way of putting that is a rise of 18 feet per mile; and there's quite a
cluster of sidewall and hub-driven models around the 1/500 line, or 10 ft per
mile."

I find it odd that a guy routinely tells us weight doesn't matter to him, but is
afraid of dyno drag equivalent to riding a 1 in 300 slope.

Regarding the O-ring solution - that is, cutting a groove in the dyno drive
wheel, snapping in a suitable O-ring and running that on the rim sidewall
instead of the tire - it makes the dyno almost silent. That should greatly
reduce your psychological stress, Joerg, but it probably reduces the drag a bit,
too. The deformation and scrubbing of the contact patch between the tire and
the dyno's roller is responsible for a significant portion of dyno drag. I think
the O-ring has a lot less scrubbing and a lot less hysteresis loss.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 5:06:00 PM UTC-5, Ian Field wrote:
> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
> news:fe3oha...@mid.individual.net...
> > On 2018-02-06 18:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
> >>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking
> >>> it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too
> >>> good for it to stop working that soon.
> >>
> >> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
> >> going and going and going...
> >>
> >
> > Until you get to a red traffic light, to a stop sign or into a traffic
> > jam. The perfect spot at night to get hit by a car driver who didn't see
> > you because you were on the only unlit vehicle around.
>
> AFAIK: dynamo lighting is illegal in the UK for exactly that reason.

Baloney.

From https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-library/regulations/lighting-regulations

"Dynamo powered lights are legal even though traditionally they have gone out when you stop (modern dynamo systems have 'standlight' technology which means that the light stays on for a while after you have stopped - another German legal requirement). In the UK it is legal to have a light turn off when you stop - which is OK so long as you stop on the left. Usually, it's much safer to stay where you are (e.g. in a stationary queue with left-turning traffic filtering up your inside), since most cars do stop for red traffic lights and those that don’t are unlikely to pay more heed to a bike lamp!

It is also worth noting that modern dynamo systems are very different to those from twenty years ago. They now use LED's as well and have far higher outputs and more advanced beam management. The hub-style dynamos (as opposed to the bottle sort which runs on the side of the tyre) have also increased their efficiency and reduced their drag considerably."

From https://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/bike-light-laws-in-the-uk-what-you-need-to-know-48568/

"Can I use dynamos instead?

Dynamo-powered lights are legal even though they stop emitting light when you stop. It’s fine from a legal standpoint so long as you stop on the left.

Many modern dynamos actually come with something called a standlight, which provides a limited amount of extra stored power even when the dynamo isn’t running."

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 5:21:09 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-02-08 14:05, Ian Field wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
> > news:fe3oha...@mid.individual.net...
> >> On 2018-02-06 18:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
> >>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking
> >>>> it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too
> >>>> good for it to stop working that soon.
> >>>
> >>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
> >>> going and going and going...
> >>>
> >>
> >> Until you get to a red traffic light, to a stop sign or into a traffic
> >> jam. The perfect spot at night to get hit by a car driver who didn't
> >> see you because you were on the only unlit vehicle around.
> >
> > AFAIK: dynamo lighting is illegal in the UK for exactly that reason.
> >
>
> All it takes is you standing in the left turn lane and some soused guy
> in a hurry cutting across that area, seeing you about one second before
> impact. Of course, Frank won't understand that but luckily your
> lawmakers did.

Except, of course, that's all false.

- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2018-02-08 16:01, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 4:14:47 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-02-08 12:20, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 2/8/2018 2:08 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Those 2.4W bulbs were a joke. My bikes (after my teenage
>>>> years) always had better lighting than that. Now it's all
>>>> LED on my bikes but the real stuff with more than 500 lumens.
>>>>
>>>
>>> For years with a Margil cover or, after a Krygowski mod with O ring, and
>>> without a switch (always on) I have no complaints about function or
>>> longevity. YMMV.
>>>
>>
>> How much does that O-ring reduce the drag? In the old days (with a real
>> power bus on the bike) I often rode the first miles with the dynamo off
>> because of the drag. I only put it back to the wheel when the "steam
>> gauge needle" (remember those?) got too close to the red range.
>
> First, the terrors of dyno drag are mostly a myth. This article deals with it:
> http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html
> "the slowing down has more to do with psychology than the actual power required
> to turn it."
> and
> "All of the generators were easier to turn than riding up a 1 in 300 slope.
> Another way of putting that is a rise of 18 feet per mile; and there's quite a
> cluster of sidewall and hub-driven models around the 1/500 line, or 10 ft per
> mile."
>

Well, take another look at your link. I routinely ride at 30km/h at
which bottle dynamos waste 15W or more. That is nothing to sneeze at.

> I find it odd that a guy routinely tells us weight doesn't matter to him, but is
> afraid of dyno drag equivalent to riding a 1 in 300 slope.
>

Hint: In the flatlands and with a nice high tire pressure weight doesn't
make much of a difference. In hilly terrain it's tougher to get uphill
but you win most of that back going back down on the other side. The
only time I feel weight is when I buy something at the brew supply place
or hardware store in the valley and then have to schlepp it up 1300ft.

> Regarding the O-ring solution - that is, cutting a groove in the dyno drive
> wheel, snapping in a suitable O-ring and running that on the rim sidewall
> instead of the tire - it makes the dyno almost silent. That should greatly
> reduce your psychological stress, Joerg, but it probably reduces the drag a bit,
> too. The deformation and scrubbing of the contact patch between the tire and
> the dyno's roller is responsible for a significant portion of dyno drag. I think
> the O-ring has a lot less scrubbing and a lot less hysteresis loss.
>

Yeah, I should give that a try. Still got a dynamo on the road bike from
the days when I had NiCd batteries which didn't have the capacity of
Li-Ion. Only issue is, it's a Soubitez dynamo where the wheel is not
removable. I'd have to figure a way to grab it at its outside diameter
with a hose or something and then drive that hose with a power drill at
a speed the dynamo can stomach for a while, then hold the corner of a
file to it.

Also, my last front Gatorskin is still on there and those have
paper-thin sidewalls. I'd have to mount another tire.

[Frank Krygowski]

You seem to not understand the math. Is 15W nothing to sneeze at? It's the same
as climbing 18 feet in a mile.

I've related this before, but: On one solo tour, I was riding west on a deserted
flat four-lane concrete highway. I had four panniers and full camping gear, but
I was riding very well at a very consistent 20 mph.

Then I hit a bad expansion joint. It really jolted me. Worse, I heard some sort
of weird whirring noise, barely audible. And I noticed my speed had dropped
to about 19 miles per hour. Ideas like a dragging brake or a fender scraping
ran through my mind, but I could see nothing wrong.

Then I realized my bottom bracket dynamo had snapped on because of the jolt.
It was a near-perfect test of dynamo drag. Riding with it on cost me one mile
per hour. Big deal!

>
>
> > I find it odd that a guy routinely tells us weight doesn't matter to him, but is
> > afraid of dyno drag equivalent to riding a 1 in 300 slope.
> >
>
> Hint: In the flatlands and with a nice high tire pressure weight doesn't
> make much of a difference.

So is that the only place you ride?? You give the impression of oh-so-gnarly
riding. Once again, your song changes wildly depending on your argument.

> > Regarding the O-ring solution - that is, cutting a groove in the dyno drive
> > wheel, snapping in a suitable O-ring and running that on the rim sidewall
> > instead of the tire - it makes the dyno almost silent. That should greatly
> > reduce your psychological stress, Joerg, but it probably reduces the drag a bit,
> > too. The deformation and scrubbing of the contact patch between the tire and
> > the dyno's roller is responsible for a significant portion of dyno drag. I think
> > the O-ring has a lot less scrubbing and a lot less hysteresis loss.
> >
>
> Yeah, I should give that a try. Still got a dynamo on the road bike from
> the days when I had NiCd batteries which didn't have the capacity of
> Li-Ion. Only issue is, it's a Soubitez dynamo where the wheel is not
> removable. I'd have to figure a way to grab it at its outside diameter
> with a hose or something and then drive that hose with a power drill at
> a speed the dynamo can stomach for a while, then hold the corner of a
> file to it.

Regarding the "speed the dynamo can stomach for a while": At 15 mph, your wheel
rotates about 180 rpm. The much smaller drive wheel on a sidewall dyno spins
about 4500 rpm or more. Your electric drill won't hurt it.

I just chucked mine in my lathe. If you don't have a lathe, perhaps try using
a drill press if its chuck is large enough. But I did remove the drive wheel
first.

> Also, my last front Gatorskin is still on there and those have
> paper-thin sidewalls. I'd have to mount another tire.

The point is to run the O-ring on the rim's braking surface.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/8/2018 3:08 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-02-07 07:01, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 2/7/2018 12:06 AM, Tosspot wrote:
>>> On 07/02/18 03:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at
>>>>> all. Taking it apart, I saw that the batteries were made
>>>>> in July 2015. Not too good for it to stop working that soon.
>>>>
>>>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They
>>>> just keep going and going and going...
>>>
>>> I bet the lights don't, as he peers at a collection of
>>> CYOs[1] and a recently defunct Flat-S. Tbf the Flat S is
>>> around 7 years old.
>>>
>>> [1] Not one lasted 18 months, they simply aren't waterproof
>>> imho.
>>
>> My regular glass bulb lamps go 6~8 years between bulb failure in daily
>> use. YMMV
>>
>
> Ye olde 2.4W + 0.6W with a dynamo? When riding at a good clip, meaning north of 15mph, those never lasted much longer than a month for me. Even if they didn't blow their filament right away the bulbs turned black inside and became dimmer than they were already to begin with. When I was a teenager I started equipping my bikes with what the automotive industry already understood over 100 years ago, brighter lights, a battery and charging system. Soon the German police wanted to give me a ticket for "non-standard" lighting. Luckily by that time I was a Dutch resident and they had to let me go.
>
> Those 2.4W bulbs were a joke.

I think you missed about three generations of dynamo lighting technology.

My first dyno had a vacuum bulb. It was terrible at lighting the road,
but fine as a "be seen" light, better than the battery lights available
at the time. Yes, the bulb blackened a bit after a while. That meant the
bulb needed to be changed. And yes, it wasn't wonderful overall; but at
that time (early 1970s) I knew of no really good bike light.

My next dyno set came with a krypton bulb. It was significantly
brighter. The optics of the headlamp were also a tiny bit better. This
was better at lighting the road, but still not great. It was more than
fine for a "be seen" light. (Contrary to modern myth, it takes very
little light to be easily seen and noticed by other road users.)

Incidentally, I don't think I ever burned out a bulb with either of
those lights. But I didn't ride fast with either.

When I eventually told my bike shop friend I wanted to see better, he
sold me a Union lamp with a halogen bulb. This was my first headlamp
that actually focused the light properly on the road. (It was StVZO
compliant.) With that, I was finally able to see the road well enough
for all the riding I did. And this headlamp had two zener diodes in the
circuit, which pretty much cure the bulb-blowing problem.
(Interestingly, after years of use, one of the zeners failed. But by
then I had other headlamps to choose from as replacements.)

For a long time that was my setup but I was interested enough to do
various experiments. I played with various battery lights, both
commercial and homebrew, including a couple with external battery packs.
I decided they offered minimal practical improvement over the dyno
lights and were not worth the inconvenience. I learned that optics were
key, and I learned that some headlamps had better optics than others. I
compared dyno headlamps by mounting two of them, with a switch that
allowed either one or both to be active. And BTW, those were mostly 2.4
Watt bulbs, although I tried a 3 Watt for a while. I also learned that
some dynos produced a bit more power than others.

The experimenting ended when I bought my first Cyo. It became obvious to
me that this produced more light than I needed, so I considered the
problem solved. Later versions were even better. By now, I've had
friends with other battery lights praise my headlight, saying (for
example) "I want to ride next to Frank. His headlight is great!"

The overall point is this: The vacuum bulb headlamp someone used in
Germany in the 1970s has as much relation to current dyno light
technology as a MIFA has to a Trek Madone.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/tim-moore-i-cycled-10000km-along-the-iron-curtain-on-a-50-bike/



--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Thanks for that, a good read and inspiring too.

[John B.]

https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-library/regulations/lighting-regulations
The post is dated Thursday, 19 October 2017

And states in part:

"Dynamo powered lights are legal even though traditionally they have
gone out when you stop (modern dynamo systems have 'standlight'
technology which means that the light stays on for a while after you
have stopped - another German legal requirement). In the UK it is

legal to have a light turn off when you stop."

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet another argument about an imagined condition.


--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tosspot]

On 08/02/18 20:59, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-02-06 18:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking
>>> it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too
>>> good for it to stop working that soon.
>>
>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
>> going and going and going...
>>
>
> Until you get to a red traffic light, to a stop sign or into a traffic
> jam. The perfect spot at night to get hit by a car driver who didn't see
> you because you were on the only unlit vehicle around.

Any light set worth it's name has a standlight function that will keep
the lights on for 3-5 minutes. Walking pace is enough to get them going
again as well.

[Tosspot]

On 08/02/18 23:05, Ian Field wrote:
>
>
> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
> news:fe3oha...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 2018-02-06 18:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
>>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking
>>>> it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too
>>>> good for it to stop working that soon.
>>>
>>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
>>> going and going and going...
>>>
>>
>> Until you get to a red traffic light, to a stop sign or into a traffic
>> jam. The perfect spot at night to get hit by a car driver who didn't
>> see you because you were on the only unlit vehicle around.
>
> AFAIK: dynamo lighting is illegal in the UK for exactly that reason.

I do not think so. It may be the case that turning across traffic at
night you don't wait in the middle of the road, but stand lights have
long solved that.

[Tosspot]

On 08/02/18 21:08, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> Ye olde 2.4W + 0.6W with a dynamo? When riding at a good clip, meaning
> north of 15mph, those never lasted much longer than a month for me. Even
> if they didn't blow their filament right away the bulbs turned black
> inside and became dimmer than they were already to begin with. When I
> was a teenager I started equipping my bikes with what the automotive
> industry already understood over 100 years ago, brighter lights, a
> battery and charging system. Soon the German police wanted to give me a
> ticket for "non-standard" lighting. Luckily by that time I was a Dutch
> resident and they had to let me go.
>

> Those 2.4W bulbs were a joke. My bikes (after my teenage years) always
> had better lighting than that. Now it's all LED on my bikes but the real
> stuff with more than 500 lumens.

There is a bloke that cycles the opposite way to me on my commute. He
uses a halogen bulb and the orange tint brings back memories. Fine to
be seen with, useless to see with.

[Sepp Ruf]

John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2018, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 8, 2018, Joerg wrote:

>>>> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2018-02-06 18:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>>>>>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
>>>>>> going and going and going...

30 years? That's nothing! I remember that even 30 years ago, they just
didn't make 'em like they used to.

>>>>> Until you get to a red traffic light, to a stop sign or into a traffic
>>>>> jam. The perfect spot at night to get hit by a car driver who didn't
>>>>> see you because you were on the only unlit vehicle around.

What happened to your CSPC reflector set that guarantees your safety, Jorge?
Swapped it for brewing supplies?

>>> All it takes is you standing in the left turn lane and some soused guy
>>> in a hurry cutting across that area, seeing you about one second before
>>> impact.

I'm sure you or a direct FOAF have witnessed plenty of such incidents, both
in the Low Countries and in Gnarly Joerg County, actually leading to crashes
and grave injuries.

>> Except, of course, that's all false.

Because drivers are actually using headlights and looking when they are in a
hurry? Or is it a paradoxical of traffic density ("Nobody goes there
anymore. It's too crowded"?)

> https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-library/regulations/lighting-regulations
> The post is dated Thursday, 19 October 2017
>

> And claims in part:
^^^
IFTFY.

> "Dynamo powered lights are legal even though traditionally they have
> gone out when you stop (modern dynamo systems have 'standlight'
> technology which means that the light stays on for a while after you
> have stopped - another German legal requirement). In the UK it is
> legal to have a light turn off when you stop."

Just as in Germany, and elsewhere where reflectors are supposed to work well
enough to indicate a stationary vehicle. Unless the actual law states
otherwise, nothing illegal about riding a bicycle with a dynamo light whose
standlight feature is either inexistent or even non-functional.

> Yet another argument about an imagined condition.

Half-imagined argument, too.

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:fe401m...@mid.individual.net...

The shop that said no for those reasons so far hasn't done so.

the shop with the unwisely placed bin - I put a rescue laptop pack on the
counter with my purchases and the checkout girl tried to scan it, i told her
where it came from and she just shrugged.

The last shop on my way across town usually requires a sit down to rest
before completing my journey - the seat is right next to the bins. Someone
had dumped a carrier bag of assorted batteries next to the bins - what was
any use to me took care of what isn't supposed to go in the tubs. no one
took much notice while I sorted through them and tipped the remainder into
the tubs. The security guard usually waits in that corner, but he spotted
something across the store that he needed to look in. I'd asked him on a
previous occasion and he asked one of the store staff - they said OK, so now
I just go for it.

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:fe482m...@mid.individual.net...

Bottle dynamos also tend to slip if wet or muddy.

[Ian Field]

"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

news:p5ird8$brv$1...@dont-email.me...

Most bulbs have vacuum - some Sturmey Archer ones were gas filled.

[Ian Field]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:fe40qh...@mid.individual.net...

> On 2018-02-08 14:05, Ian Field wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
>> news:fe3oha...@mid.individual.net...
>>> On 2018-02-06 18:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking
>>>>> it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too
>>>>> good for it to stop working that soon.
>>>>
>>>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
>>>> going and going and going...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Until you get to a red traffic light, to a stop sign or into a traffic
>>> jam. The perfect spot at night to get hit by a car driver who didn't
>>> see you because you were on the only unlit vehicle around.
>>
>> AFAIK: dynamo lighting is illegal in the UK for exactly that reason.
>>
>
> All it takes is you standing in the left turn lane and some soused guy in
> a hurry cutting across that area, seeing you about one second before
> impact. Of course, Frank won't understand that but luckily your lawmakers
> did.

UK car drivers seem to be wary of unlit cyclists and give them a wide berth.

I used to joke that bicycle lights were magic charms to ward off evil car
drivers - now i joke that they're target indicators for car drivers.

[Ian Field]

"Sepp Ruf" <inq...@Safe-mail.net> wrote in message
news:p5k1og$1tsk$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

> John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 Feb 2018, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On Thursday, February 8, 2018, Joerg wrote:
>
>>>>> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2018-02-06 18:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
>>>>>>> going and going and going...
>
> 30 years? That's nothing! I remember that even 30 years ago, they just
> didn't make 'em like they used to.

An old Raleigh I had might possibly have been older than me.

After several back wheel failures I ordered a rim and SS spokes - having
never got around to finding a wheel builder, I outed it on a free recycling
group as a restoration project.

As I'd welded a lamp bracket to the forks, a replacement set was thrown in
with it.

[Ian Field]

"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4474d737-f364-4d2f...@googlegroups.com...

> On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 5:06:00 PM UTC-5, Ian Field wrote:
>> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
>> news:fe3oha...@mid.individual.net...
>> > On 2018-02-06 18:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
>> >>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking
>> >>> it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too
>> >>> good for it to stop working that soon.
>> >>
>> >> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
>> >> going and going and going...
>> >>
>> >
>> > Until you get to a red traffic light, to a stop sign or into a traffic
>> > jam. The perfect spot at night to get hit by a car driver who didn't
>> > see
>> > you because you were on the only unlit vehicle around.
>>
>> AFAIK: dynamo lighting is illegal in the UK for exactly that reason.
>
> Baloney.

AFAIK means I was told that and didn't bother studying the regs myself.

[Ian Field]

"Tosspot" <Frank...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0qSdnZTN59MXpeDH...@giganews.com...

> On 08/02/18 23:05, Ian Field wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
>> news:fe3oha...@mid.individual.net...
>>> On 2018-02-06 18:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/6/2018 1:52 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>> My wife's Lezyne Deca 1500XXL stopped taking a charge, at all. Taking
>>>>> it apart, I saw that the batteries were made in July 2015. Not too
>>>>> good for it to stop working that soon.
>>>>
>>>> Some of my bikes have dynamos that are 30 years old. They just keep
>>>> going and going and going...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Until you get to a red traffic light, to a stop sign or into a traffic
>>> jam. The perfect spot at night to get hit by a car driver who didn't see
>>> you because you were on the only unlit vehicle around.
>>
>> AFAIK: dynamo lighting is illegal in the UK for exactly that reason.
>
> I do not think so. It may be the case that turning across traffic at
> night you don't wait in the middle of the road, but stand lights have long
> solved that.

Looks like what I was told was either wrong or out of date - but I have been
warned that a backup battery may not make a dynamo ant less illegal.

[sms]

On 2/8/2018 12:21 PM, Joerg wrote:

> On 2018-02-06 20:48, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:52:50 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>

> [...]

>
>
>>> It's a 2 cell 18650 pack with the batteries in parallel, and a
>>> protection circuit board shared between the two cells. The cells are
>>> allegedly 2800mAH, for a total of 5600mAH.
>>

>> Seems rather high.
>
>
> Probably a Chinese spec :-)
>
> Just like with lights where there are lumens and then there are Chilumens.
>
>
>>                  ... Note that batteries are tested at a 0.2C
>> discharge, which yields larger numbers than the usual headlight
>> discharge rate.  The Lezyne Deca 1500XXL claims 1500 lumens, which
>> also seems a bit high.  Assuming 120 lumens/watt at a nominal
>> 3.7V/battery, that's:
>>     1500 / 120 / 3.7 = 3.4A
>> to run the headlight at full brightness, or 1.7A per cell.
>> Meanwhile, the cell capacity is tested at:
>>     0.2 * 2800 = 0.56A
>>
>
> Classic American answer: Then you need a bigger battery. On my road bike
> I use eight 18650 cells, four in parallel and two of those packs in
> series so the current on the cable to the front light doesn't exceed 1A,
> at least not by much.

I decided to do run-time tests on my two Lezyne Decadrive 1500xxl lights.

I think that I have never before experienced a light manufacturer that
significantly under-stated run times.

Running both in "Overdrive Race Mode" the run time was much higher than
the manual stated. mtbr.com measured "Overdrive Race Mode" at 1390
lumens, a little less than the claimed 1500 lumens. The manual says 100
minutes in "Overdrive Race Mode."

On the light with the new 5200mAH battery back, one test gave 157
minutes, one 162 minutes.

On the light with the old 5600mAH battery pack, one test gave 193
minutes, one test gave 216 minutes.

I did not run the battery all the way down. When the "10% remaining"
indicator occurred I stopped the test.

I am going to do a third test as well, as soon as the batteries are
recharged.

[Joerg]

Those numbers aren't bad indeed. However, they'd be totally inadequate
for many of my bike rides with 4-5h of riding time.

[sms]

On 2/9/2018 4:10 PM, Joerg wrote:

> Those numbers aren't bad indeed. However, they'd be totally inadequate
> for many of my bike rides with 4-5h of riding time.

Yes, if you needed full power for the entire ride, which is unlikely on
a road ride.

Also, the lights I have are discontinued. The new models are better
because they combine an all-in-one sealed waterproof design with an
optional external power-pack. I greatly prefer an all-in-one design to a
design with a separate power pack, but YMMV.
<http://www.lezyne.com/product-led-perf-deca1500i.php>.

[jbeattie]

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 12:21:15 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-02-06 20:48, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:52:50 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
>
> [...]
>
>
> >> It's a 2 cell 18650 pack with the batteries in parallel, and a
> >> protection circuit board shared between the two cells. The cells are
> >> allegedly 2800mAH, for a total of 5600mAH.
> >
> > Seems rather high.
>
>
> Probably a Chinese spec :-)
>
> Just like with lights where there are lumens and then there are Chilumens.
>
>
> > ... Note that batteries are tested at a 0.2C
> > discharge, which yields larger numbers than the usual headlight
> > discharge rate. The Lezyne Deca 1500XXL claims 1500 lumens, which
> > also seems a bit high. Assuming 120 lumens/watt at a nominal
> > 3.7V/battery, that's:
> > 1500 / 120 / 3.7 = 3.4A
> > to run the headlight at full brightness, or 1.7A per cell.
> > Meanwhile, the cell capacity is tested at:
> > 0.2 * 2800 = 0.56A
> >
>
> Classic American answer: Then you need a bigger battery. On my road bike
> I use eight 18650 cells, four in parallel and two of those packs in
> series so the current on the cable to the front light doesn't exceed 1A,
> at least not by much.
>

> My MTB has to make do with four cells but except for short bursts on
> city streets or fast county roads I drop that down from 8W to 3W or
> sometimes even 1.5W in front.
>
> I ride all roads in car traffic with lights, day and night, and then
> usually at full bore. Bike paths sans DRL, singletrack with just the
> front light lit so dirt bikers see me.

Get a low-watt blinker for daytime if you need a DRL. It's more conspicuous than a fixed beam, depending on where you are riding. I only use a DRL during morning hours, rainstorms or overcast (sometimes). I use a little Nashbar flasher, which is pretty average for riders around here. My rain gear is high-viz, and I tend to avoid all-black like some of my more fashionable cohorts. In daylight, I see rider jerseys long before lights except under rare circumstances.

I'm about to ride home, and if (after climbing out of the parking garage) I decide to ride home on the frustrating cycle path, I will encounter endless dopes with >1000 lumen lights pointed straight at me. Oddly, because of the alignment of the cycletrack, I will not be able to determine whether they are on-coming bicycles in the side-by-side two-way bike lane or cars out on the road. The brighter the light, the more it will look like a car -- and not a bike that will pass me within five inches. One day, I will have a head-on if I ride that path enough.

A beam with cut-off and lower intensity would be much more noticeable as a bike and would not blind me. A 1 watt flasher would make it even more recognizable. One can justify a bright, less-shaped light away from other riders, but blasting the retina burners around other cyclists is unconscionable.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 13:35:24 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On the light with the new 5200mAH battery back, one test gave 157
>minutes, one 162 minutes.
>
>On the light with the old 5600mAH battery pack, one test gave 193
>minutes, one test gave 216 minutes.

It would seem that your new Amazon batteries are somewhat over-rated
and that your old battery pack still has quite a bit of life left.

Let's see what the numbers show:

1400 lumens, at an optimistic 150 lumens/watt equals 9.3 watts.
At a nominal 3.7V battery voltage, current drain:
9.3w / 3.7v = 2.5A

The rated 5600 ma-hr is measured at 0.2C. At roughly 1 C the rating
drops by approximately 15% to 4800 ma-hr.
4800mA-hr / 2500mA = 1.9 hrs = 115 minutes

You're doing much better than I would predict.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

Did you also measured the light output over time? Otherwise the numbers mean nothing to me.

Lou

[Oculus Lights]

my Oculus lights have a field replaceable battery design. Np changing batteries when drained and replacing with a freshly charged battery, if you aren't able to plug the charger into the charging jack. Your choice of high capacity 5500mAH 26650 or 3500mAH Panasonic 18650.

[Joerg]

If you are willing to give up 1mph this easy, fine. I am not and I have
found a much better solution.

>>
>>> I find it odd that a guy routinely tells us weight doesn't matter to him, but is
>>> afraid of dyno drag equivalent to riding a 1 in 300 slope.
>>>
>>
>> Hint: In the flatlands and with a nice high tire pressure weight doesn't
>> make much of a difference.
>
> So is that the only place you ride?? You give the impression of oh-so-gnarly
> riding. Once again, your song changes wildly depending on your argument.
>

If you had followed more carefully you'd have know that there are two
places I ride a lot: Here in the hills and then down in the Sacramento
Valley. As I wrote many times that valley is huge and very flat. Nearly
all errand rides have to head in that direction because that's where
nearly all stores are.

>>> Regarding the O-ring solution - that is, cutting a groove in the dyno drive
>>> wheel, snapping in a suitable O-ring and running that on the rim sidewall
>>> instead of the tire - it makes the dyno almost silent. That should greatly
>>> reduce your psychological stress, Joerg, but it probably reduces the drag a bit,
>>> too. The deformation and scrubbing of the contact patch between the tire and
>>> the dyno's roller is responsible for a significant portion of dyno drag. I think
>>> the O-ring has a lot less scrubbing and a lot less hysteresis loss.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, I should give that a try. Still got a dynamo on the road bike from
>> the days when I had NiCd batteries which didn't have the capacity of
>> Li-Ion. Only issue is, it's a Soubitez dynamo where the wheel is not
>> removable. I'd have to figure a way to grab it at its outside diameter
>> with a hose or something and then drive that hose with a power drill at
>> a speed the dynamo can stomach for a while, then hold the corner of a
>> file to it.
>
> Regarding the "speed the dynamo can stomach for a while": At 15 mph, your wheel
> rotates about 180 rpm. The much smaller drive wheel on a sidewall dyno spins
> about 4500 rpm or more. Your electric drill won't hurt it.
>

Thanks. Then it should be possible, maybe even without removing the dynamo.

> I just chucked mine in my lathe. If you don't have a lathe, perhaps try using
> a drill press if its chuck is large enough. But I did remove the drive wheel
> first.
>

On my dynamo it isn't removable. A (very small) lathe is on my bucket
list. Probably one of those PC-controlled XYZ tables.

>> Also, my last front Gatorskin is still on there and those have
>> paper-thin sidewalls. I'd have to mount another tire.
>
> The point is to run the O-ring on the rim's braking surface.
>

Aha, that makes sense. Thanks.

[Joerg]

On my MTB it wold be quite useless. On the road bike I could use in just
while not slippery. It has a large battery so 4h no-charge wouldn't be a
problem.

[Joerg]

You had to make your own, either using Krypton flashlight bulbs
(expensive) or mofa lights. Mofas where the slow gas-popwered "bicycles"
in Germany, limited to 25km/. Unless souped up which almost all my class
mates who had one did.

> My next dyno set came with a krypton bulb. It was significantly
> brighter.

See? You could buy those in the 70's, just not for 6V. Most of the ones
I used on my bicycle were rated 3.7V.


> ... The optics of the headlamp were also a tiny bit better. This

> was better at lighting the road, but still not great. It was more than
> fine for a "be seen" light. (Contrary to modern myth, it takes very
> little light to be easily seen and noticed by other road users.)
>
> Incidentally, I don't think I ever burned out a bulb with either of
> those lights. But I didn't ride fast with either.
>

I went through regular bike bulbs as if they were popcorn until I
switched to better systems.

> When I eventually told my bike shop friend I wanted to see better, he
> sold me a Union lamp with a halogen bulb. This was my first headlamp
> that actually focused the light properly on the road. (It was StVZO
> compliant.) With that, I was finally able to see the road well enough
> for all the riding I did. And this headlamp had two zener diodes in the
> circuit, which pretty much cure the bulb-blowing problem.
> (Interestingly, after years of use, one of the zeners failed. But by
> then I had other headlamps to choose from as replacements.)
>

The zener would also waste power. However, I found those lights way
overpriced back then. So yeah, I skipped that halogen generation except
for my desk lights.

> For a long time that was my setup but I was interested enough to do
> various experiments. I played with various battery lights, both
> commercial and homebrew, including a couple with external battery packs.
> I decided they offered minimal practical improvement over the dyno
> lights and were not worth the inconvenience.

Most likely you didn't build them right. The best bulbs and reflectors
were those from "tactical flashlights" or whatever they called them. The
kind the police used when they were looking for someone. In those days
they had a metal tube that held D-cells, which I cut off. They had
Krypton bulbs or bulbs filled with other gases and the rated voltage was
always substantially lower than the battery stack offered yet they
lasted a long time.


> ... I learned that optics were

> key, and I learned that some headlamps had better optics than others. I
> compared dyno headlamps by mounting two of them, with a switch that
> allowed either one or both to be active. And BTW, those were mostly 2.4
> Watt bulbs, although I tried a 3 Watt for a while. I also learned that
> some dynos produced a bit more power than others.
>

... and blew those bulbs.

> The experimenting ended when I bought my first Cyo. It became obvious to
> me that this produced more light than I needed, so I considered the
> problem solved. Later versions were even better. By now, I've had
> friends with other battery lights praise my headlight, saying (for
> example) "I want to ride next to Frank. His headlight is great!"
>
> The overall point is this: The vacuum bulb headlamp someone used in
> Germany in the 1970s has as much relation to current dyno light
> technology as a MIFA has to a Trek Madone.
>

We were talking about Andy's light and that seems to be 70's era.


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/tim-moore-i-cycled-10000km-along-the-iron-curtain-on-a-50-bike/
>

Oh man, I sure would not want to do that ride.

[Joerg]

On 2018-02-09 17:24, sms wrote:
> On 2/9/2018 4:10 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> Those numbers aren't bad indeed. However, they'd be totally inadequate
>> for many of my bike rides with 4-5h of riding time.
>
> Yes, if you needed full power for the entire ride, which is unlikely on
> a road ride.
>

On roads and also in towns where people tend to not pay enough attention
to cyclists I ride with full lumens, day or night. On side roads I
ratchet it down to lower power and on bike paths I usually turn it off
during daylight.

I found that on county roads where I must ride in the lane oncoming
traffic sees me earlier when my light is on full bore. Many drivers then
pull closer to their right so the drivers passing me can pull farther
towards or even over the center line.

I have installer diffusor lenses so people won't be blinded. I would not
ride one mile in traffic without those.

> Also, the lights I have are discontinued. The new models are better
> because they combine an all-in-one sealed waterproof design with an
> optional external power-pack. I greatly prefer an all-in-one design to a
> design with a separate power pack, but YMMV.
> <http://www.lezyne.com/product-led-perf-deca1500i.php>.

150 bucks? Yikes!

Aluminum is good though, mine are aluminum as well but cost under $20/each.

[Joerg]

On 2018-02-09 18:01, jbeattie wrote:
> On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 12:21:15 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-02-06 20:48, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> ... Note that batteries are tested at a 0.2C discharge, which
>>> yields larger numbers than the usual headlight discharge rate.
>>> The Lezyne Deca 1500XXL claims 1500 lumens, which also seems a
>>> bit high. Assuming 120 lumens/watt at a nominal 3.7V/battery,
>>> that's: 1500 / 120 / 3.7 = 3.4A to run the headlight at full
>>> brightness, or 1.7A per cell. Meanwhile, the cell capacity is
>>> tested at: 0.2 * 2800 = 0.56A
>>>
>>
>> Classic American answer: Then you need a bigger battery. On my road
>> bike I use eight 18650 cells, four in parallel and two of those
>> packs in series so the current on the cable to the front light
>> doesn't exceed 1A, at least not by much.
>>
>> My MTB has to make do with four cells but except for short bursts
>> on city streets or fast county roads I drop that down from 8W to 3W
>> or sometimes even 1.5W in front.
>>
>> I ride all roads in car traffic with lights, day and night, and
>> then usually at full bore. Bike paths sans DRL, singletrack with
>> just the front light lit so dirt bikers see me.
>
> Get a low-watt blinker for daytime if you need a DRL. It's more
> conspicuous than a fixed beam, depending on where you are riding. I
> only use a DRL during morning hours, rainstorms or overcast
> (sometimes). I use a little Nashbar flasher, which is pretty average
> for riders around here.

My road bike front light has flash mode but when I tried it and walked
towards my bike it was annoying. Also, a bright constant light gives
more of an impression that some sort or motorcycle may be coming. So
people are more cautious than with "just a cyclist".


> ... My rain gear is high-viz, and I tend to avoid

> all-black like some of my more fashionable cohorts. In daylight, I
> see rider jerseys long before lights except under rare
> circumstances.
>

It doesn't rain much out here. I prefer cotton and my wife does not like
high-viz T-shirts. They must be handwashed, else all other laundry in
that load appears with an orange or other tint.

I can't remember the last time I rode with rain gear. I just let myself
get wet or even soaked. When that starts to feel chilly I just step on
it until the water starts "steaming off".

> I'm about to ride home, and if (after climbing out of the parking
> garage) I decide to ride home on the frustrating cycle path, I will
> encounter endless dopes with >1000 lumen lights pointed straight at
> me. Oddly, because of the alignment of the cycletrack, I will not be
> able to determine whether they are on-coming bicycles in the
> side-by-side two-way bike lane or cars out on the road. The brighter
> the light, the more it will look like a car -- and not a bike that
> will pass me within five inches. One day, I will have a head-on if I
> ride that path enough.
>

They probably don't have diffusor lenses, which they should. With those
installed my lights are roughly as bright as those of motorcycles.

> A beam with cut-off and lower intensity would be much more noticeable
> as a bike and would not blind me. A 1 watt flasher would make it
> even more recognizable. One can justify a bright, less-shaped light
> away from other riders, but blasting the retina burners around other
> cyclists is unconscionable.
>

Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or
rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again
at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/10/2018 3:54 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
> On roads and also in towns where people tend to not pay enough attention

> to cyclists I ride with full lumens, day or night...

> I would not
> ride one mile in traffic without those.

We know. "Danger! Danger!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/10/2018 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
> Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or
> rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again
> at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it.

I agree with this.

But I'd add, before buying high powered LED lights, check out any more
ordinary lights you have in a similar way. Have a friend ride your bike
as you observe. I've done this many times with friends.

Contrary to current myths, you do not need super-powerful lights to be
plenty visible. Any headlight that shows the road sufficiently will be
perfectly visible to motorists, and taillights need far, far less power
to make you safe.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/10/2018 3:27 PM, Joerg wrote:

> On 2018-02-08 16:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Then I realized my bottom bracket dynamo had snapped on because of the
>> jolt.
>> It was a near-perfect test of dynamo drag. Riding with it on cost me
>> one mile
>> per hour. Big deal!
>>
>
> If you are willing to give up 1mph this easy, fine. I am not and I have
> found a much better solution.

Joerg, your arguments are monuments to inconsistency.

You've rhapsodized about stopping to smell the flowers, stopping to pet
the dogs and horses, taking time to find a nail and rock for a
Flinstone-style chain repair instead of using a chain tool... Yet now,
being slowed one mile per hour is somehow critical??

>> So is that the only place you ride?? You give the impression of
>> oh-so-gnarly
>> riding. Once again, your song changes wildly depending on your argument.
>>
>
> If you had followed more carefully you'd have know that there are two
> places I ride a lot: Here in the hills and then down in the Sacramento
> Valley. As I wrote many times that valley is huge and very flat. Nearly
> all errand rides have to head in that direction because that's where
> nearly all stores are.

Yes, and you've given photos and videos of hilly off-road trails, and
said that your mountain bike has to be super-rugged to survive them, so
you've reinforced racks, built stout battery boxes, choose heavy tires
etc. because weight doesn't matter to you.

Perhaps you'd make more sense if you took notes on what you've already
posted, then reviewed them before the next time you post.

Perhaps.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

The entire test was at maximum power and the lights never dimmed. The
light does not automatically reduce output based on remaining battery
capacity, and it's not as smart as a smart phone which tracks battery
performance over time and then throttles back. It might reduce power if
it overheats but it has an excellent thermal solution of finned
aluminum--it does not use a plastic enclosure.

[John B.]

I've read the comments about blindingly bright bicycle lights and
always wondered about it. Basically, sitting on my bike my eye line is
higher then the driver of a Toyota - I've checked this a number of
times - thus a light that was blinding to me, sitting on my bike, must
certainly be blinding to a guy driving a Toyota.... which doesn't seem
like a good thing to do, at least blinding the other driver seems
counterproductive to being seen.

What I've always done with bar mounted lights was to set the light
horizontal which puts the beam at almost exactly the same height as
the stop light lenses on my example Toyota Taxi.

So far, at least, I've had no indication that auto drivers didn't see
me, or see me in a timely manner.




--
Cheers,

John B.

[lou.h...@gmail.com]

So the light has the same light output at 10% battery capacity as it has at 100% battery capacity. That is not my experience (I did the same test). You must have magic batteries and/or light over there.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/10/2018 9:25 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:25:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/10/2018 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>> Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or
>>> rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again
>>> at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it.
>>
>> I agree with this.
>>
>> But I'd add, before buying high powered LED lights, check out any more
>> ordinary lights you have in a similar way. Have a friend ride your bike
>> as you observe. I've done this many times with friends.
>>
>> Contrary to current myths, you do not need super-powerful lights to be
>> plenty visible. Any headlight that shows the road sufficiently will be
>> perfectly visible to motorists, and taillights need far, far less power
>> to make you safe.
>
> I've read the comments about blindingly bright bicycle lights and
> always wondered about it. Basically, sitting on my bike my eye line is
> higher then the driver of a Toyota - I've checked this a number of
> times - thus a light that was blinding to me, sitting on my bike, must
> certainly be blinding to a guy driving a Toyota.... which doesn't seem
> like a good thing to do, at least blinding the other driver seems
> counterproductive to being seen.

Your thought processes are far too sophisticated for many bicyclists.
Their brains switch off after they've uttered the sentence "I want it to
be BRIGHT!"

> What I've always done with bar mounted lights was to set the light
> horizontal which puts the beam at almost exactly the same height as
> the stop light lenses on my example Toyota Taxi.

I use StVZO headlamps, and I aim them so the brightest part of the beam
points just a little below horizontal. That part of the beam probably
hits a level road about 30 feet ahead of me.

I think part of the glare problem is people with round, flashlight-style
beams, instead of beams shaped like vehicle headlights. If they point
the brightest part of a mega-lumen light at the road 30 feet ahead,
there's enough upward spill to blind others.

And further down the thinking scale are those who use a mega-beam but
point it horizontally or even slightly upward. This can only be
explained by a combination of timidity and stupidity.

> So far, at least, I've had no indication that auto drivers didn't see
> me, or see me in a timely manner.

Same here. Quite the opposite, in fact; motorists have always seemed
extra careful and courteous to me at night, even when I was using only
2.4 Watt incandescent lights.

Yet some claim they'd be dead if they weren't blinding other road users.
:-/


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

This is a classic example of you falsifying quotes. I wrote, quote "I
have installed diffusor lenses so people won't be blinded. I would not

ride one mile in traffic without those".

Out of courtesy to _others_ and not me.

Ever heard of brackets and dots to do a legit snip? And even then you'd
have been at tabloid quality.

[Joerg]

On 2018-02-10 18:25, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:25:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/10/2018 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>> Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or
>>> rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again
>>> at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it.
>>
>> I agree with this.
>>
>> But I'd add, before buying high powered LED lights, check out any more
>> ordinary lights you have in a similar way. Have a friend ride your bike
>> as you observe. I've done this many times with friends.
>>
>> Contrary to current myths, you do not need super-powerful lights to be
>> plenty visible. Any headlight that shows the road sufficiently will be
>> perfectly visible to motorists, and taillights need far, far less power
>> to make you safe.
>

I had plenty of opportunity to compare StVZO tail lights versus the over
there "illegal" lights such as PDW DangerZone or Radbot. HUGE difference
in visibility. This was as a motorist in Germany. Since I am also a
cyclist I paid particular attention to bicycle equipment because I
wanted to know. I also wanted to see if the purchase of some lights from
there would make sense since those wouldn't need electronics up front to
connect to the 8.4VDC power bus on my bicycles. My conclusion was that
it does not.

> I've read the comments about blindingly bright bicycle lights and
> always wondered about it. Basically, sitting on my bike my eye line is

> higher then the driver of a Toyota - ...


Unless you are sitting in an americanized Toyota Tundra with extra big
tires :-)


> ... I've checked this a number of

> times - thus a light that was blinding to me, sitting on my bike, must
> certainly be blinding to a guy driving a Toyota.... which doesn't seem
> like a good thing to do, at least blinding the other driver seems
> counterproductive to being seen.
>
> What I've always done with bar mounted lights was to set the light
> horizontal which puts the beam at almost exactly the same height as
> the stop light lenses on my example Toyota Taxi.
>
> So far, at least, I've had no indication that auto drivers didn't see
> me, or see me in a timely manner.
>

The trick is, when you walk towards your bicycle, move a bit towards the
squatting position, just enough to get to the typical seat height of a
sports car like a Mazda Miata. If it doesn't blind then, you are ok.

[sms]

On 2/8/2018 12:08 PM, Joerg wrote:

> Ye olde 2.4W + 0.6W with a dynamo? When riding at a good clip, meaning
> north of 15mph, those never lasted much longer than a month for me. Even
> if they didn't blow their filament right away the bulbs turned black
> inside and became dimmer than they were already to begin with. When I
> was a teenager I started equipping my bikes with what the automotive
> industry already understood over 100 years ago, brighter lights, a
> battery and charging system. Soon the German police wanted to give me a
> ticket for "non-standard" lighting. Luckily by that time I was a Dutch
> resident and they had to let me go.

LOL, in the U.S. I think the police are so thrilled that a cyclist has a
light at all that the last thing they worry about is if it's as bright
as a vehicle light. However, a couple of months ago my son was home from
college and driving my car and he got pulled over. I had replaced my
7443 incandescent brake light bulbs with these
<https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/tail-brake-turn/7443-led-bulb-w-brake-flasher-dual-function-1-high-power-led-wedge-retrofit-car/925/>
which flash prior to going solid. They were not illegal so he didn't get
a ticket. I don't know what the real reason they pulled him over was.

> Those 2.4W bulbs were a joke. My bikes (after my teenage years) always
> had better lighting than that. Now it's all LED on my bikes but the real
> stuff with more than 500 lumens.

I recall that the lights back then came with a clip to hold a spare
bulb. Then people began coming out with home-brew protection circuits.

[Joerg]

On 2018-02-10 16:57, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/10/2018 3:27 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-02-08 16:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> Then I realized my bottom bracket dynamo had snapped on because of
>>> the jolt.
>>> It was a near-perfect test of dynamo drag. Riding with it on cost me
>>> one mile
>>> per hour. Big deal!
>>>
>>
>> If you are willing to give up 1mph this easy, fine. I am not and I
>> have found a much better solution.
>
> Joerg, your arguments are monuments to inconsistency.
>
> You've rhapsodized about stopping to smell the flowers, stopping to pet
> the dogs and horses, taking time to find a nail and rock for a
> Flinstone-style chain repair instead of using a chain tool... Yet now,
> being slowed one mile per hour is somehow critical??
>

In the valley, yes. As you should have figured out by now riding along
major thoroughfares, even if they have bike lanes, is no fun at all for
me. I want to get that behind me and the faster the better. Vrooom,
vrooom, Diesel stench, yuck. Horses, dogs and so on are not to be met
there. They are met on singletrack here in the hills and on MUP in the
valley. Even on the long MUP along the American River I am sometimes in
a hurry when on an errand run.

To sum it up: _I_ want to be the decision maker on how fast the journey
goes, not some poorly engineered piece of equipment.

>>> So is that the only place you ride?? You give the impression of
>>> oh-so-gnarly
>>> riding. Once again, your song changes wildly depending on your argument.
>>>
>>
>> If you had followed more carefully you'd have know that there are two
>> places I ride a lot: Here in the hills and then down in the Sacramento
>> Valley. As I wrote many times that valley is huge and very flat.
>> Nearly all errand rides have to head in that direction because that's
>> where nearly all stores are.
>
> Yes, and you've given photos and videos of hilly off-road trails, and
> said that your mountain bike has to be super-rugged to survive them, so
> you've reinforced racks, built stout battery boxes, choose heavy tires
> etc. because weight doesn't matter to you.
>

Weight indeed does not matter, sturdiness is all that counts for me. So
I have modified the MTB and to some extent the road bike (some of our
roads wouldn't be considered roads in the east).

On the MTB I do not care much if a ride on singletrack takes 15 minutes
longer. As happened on Wednesday where I spent 15mins with a horse and
then 5mins with another down the trail. Also watched a hawk who did fun
aerobatics which is a rare sight. I looked at the time at a particular
point where I'd normally barrel through at 1320h and it was already
1335h. So what?

When I use the road bike and have to be at a meeting at a particular
time that is obviously different.

> Perhaps you'd make more sense if you took notes on what you've already
> posted, then reviewed them before the next time you post.
>
> Perhaps.
>

No, it would make more sense if you paid more attention to detail. Some
of us are not restricted to same old same old when it comes to riding.
Some of us have a road bike _and_ an MTB, and they use both kinds of
routes. The riding is _very_ different and so is the terrain turf. You
might also try to grasp the difference between utility rides and fun rides.

[Joerg]

On 2018-02-11 07:59, sms wrote:
> On 2/8/2018 12:08 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> Ye olde 2.4W + 0.6W with a dynamo? When riding at a good clip, meaning
>> north of 15mph, those never lasted much longer than a month for me.
>> Even if they didn't blow their filament right away the bulbs turned
>> black inside and became dimmer than they were already to begin with.
>> When I was a teenager I started equipping my bikes with what the
>> automotive industry already understood over 100 years ago, brighter
>> lights, a battery and charging system. Soon the German police wanted
>> to give me a ticket for "non-standard" lighting. Luckily by that time
>> I was a Dutch resident and they had to let me go.
>
> LOL, in the U.S. I think the police are so thrilled that a cyclist has a
> light at all that the last thing they worry about is if it's as bright

> as a vehicle light. ...


Though I am waiting until I get stopped because from a distance one of
my rear lights (there are two) looks like the flashing lights on a
police cruiser or fire engine.


> ... However, a couple of months ago my son was home from

> college and driving my car and he got pulled over. I had replaced my
> 7443 incandescent brake light bulbs with these
> <https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/tail-brake-turn/7443-led-bulb-w-brake-flasher-dual-function-1-high-power-led-wedge-retrofit-car/925/>
> which flash prior to going solid. They were not illegal so he didn't get
> a ticket. I don't know what the real reason they pulled him over was.
>
>> Those 2.4W bulbs were a joke. My bikes (after my teenage years) always
>> had better lighting than that. Now it's all LED on my bikes but the
>> real stuff with more than 500 lumens.
>
> I recall that the lights back then came with a clip to hold a spare
> bulb.

The ones I knew didn't but many riders had spare bulbs wadded in tissue
stuffed into the empty space of the shell. Both 2.4W and 0.6W because
when the front blew at high speed the rear was usually gone a second later.

> Then people began coming out with home-brew protection circuits.

Or in my case real electrical systems such as cars had them for decades.
Though I was surprised how few cyclists do this and that still holds
true today. Most just have blinkers with some tiny AAA cells in there.
The designers of those things usually weren't even smart enough to
integrate a low-battery warning so I often see riders where the rear
light has fizzled to the power of a glowing cigarette tip.

[sms]

On 2/8/2018 4:25 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-02-08 16:01, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 4:14:47 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2018-02-08 12:20, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 2/8/2018 2:08 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> Those 2.4W bulbs were a joke. My bikes (after my teenage
>>>>> years) always had better lighting than that. Now it's all
>>>>> LED on my bikes but the real stuff with more than 500 lumens.
>>>>>
>>>>

>>>> For years with a Margil cover or, after a Krygowski mod with O ring,
>>>> and
>>>> without a switch (always on) I have no complaints about function or
>>>> longevity. YMMV.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How much does that O-ring reduce the drag? In the old days (with a real
>>> power bus on the bike) I often rode the first miles with the dynamo off
>>> because of the drag. I only put it back to the wheel when the "steam
>>> gauge needle" (remember those?) got too close to the red range.
>>
>> First, the terrors of dyno drag are mostly a myth. This article deals
>> with it:
>> http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html
>> "the slowing down has more to do with psychology than the actual power
>> required
>> to turn it."
>> and
>> "All of the generators were easier to turn than riding up a 1 in 300
>> slope.
>> Another way of putting that is a rise of 18 feet per mile; and there's
>> quite a
>> cluster of sidewall and hub-driven models around the 1/500 line, or 10
>> ft per
>> mile."
>>
>
> Well, take another look at your link. I routinely ride at 30km/h at
> which bottle dynamos waste 15W or more. That is nothing to sneeze at.
>
>

>> I find it odd that a guy routinely tells us weight doesn't matter to
>> him, but is
>> afraid of dyno drag equivalent to riding a 1 in 300 slope.
>>
>
> Hint: In the flatlands and with a nice high tire pressure weight doesn't

> make much of a difference. In hilly terrain it's tougher to get uphill
> but you win most of that back going back down on the other side. The
> only time I feel weight is when I buy something at the brew supply place
> or hardware store in the valley and then have to schlepp it up 1300ft.

>
>
>> Regarding the O-ring solution - that is, cutting a groove in the dyno
>> drive
>> wheel, snapping in a suitable O-ring and running that on the rim sidewall
>> instead of the tire - it makes the dyno almost silent. That should
>> greatly
>> reduce your psychological stress, Joerg, but it probably reduces the
>> drag a bit,
>> too. The deformation and scrubbing of the contact patch between the
>> tire and
>> the dyno's roller is responsible for a significant portion of dyno
>> drag. I think
>> the O-ring has a lot less scrubbing and a lot less hysteresis loss.
>>
>
> Yeah, I should give that a try. Still got a dynamo on the road bike from
> the days when I had NiCd batteries which didn't have the capacity of
> Li-Ion. Only issue is, it's a Soubitez dynamo where the wheel is not
> removable. I'd have to figure a way to grab it at its outside diameter
> with a hose or something and then drive that hose with a power drill at
> a speed the dynamo can stomach for a while, then hold the corner of a
> file to it.
>

> Also, my last front Gatorskin is still on there and those have
> paper-thin sidewalls. I'd have to mount another tire.

The drag on bottle dynamos and roller dynamos is significant, though I
have only owned Sanyo roller and Union bottle, not the high-end German
bottle dynamos. For the hub dynamos it's hard to quantify the
difference. I rode my Dahon yesterday which has an SP hub dynamo
(rebranded as "Joule") but it'd be hard, without special equipment, to
run it with the original wheel, and measure the difference. I have a
high-end LED light on the Dahon, but like most StVZO compliant,
European, LED lights there is no DRL flasher. My back-up dynamo light on
my commute bike has a DRL flasher, but it's too weak to use by itself.
Have to look at this one:
<http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/exposure-revo-dynamo-light-only/rp-prod110884>.

You're absolutely right regarding waste of excess power, and there's no
reason for this with a better design. A dynamo charging a 2P Li-Ion
power pack with a buck switcher would solve this problem, at least until
the batteries are fully charged, but then you could choose to disconnect
the dynamo from the load.

[sms]

Remember the "10%" indication is almost certainly NOT 10% battery
capacity remaining. It's what the light manufacturer decided to bring
the batteries down to before shutting down. The remaining capacity is
more. It's the same as what electric vehicle manufacturers do in order
to prolong battery life, they don't charge to the maximum and they don't
discharge to the minimum.

[sms]

Every time Frank can't respond to an argument with facts and logic he
resorts to "Danger! Danger!." I am subjected to more and more Frank-like
non-logic lately, and my Usenet experience was good training.

[sms]

On 2/11/2018 8:19 AM, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> Or in my case real electrical systems such as cars had them for decades.
> Though I was surprised how few cyclists do this and that still holds
> true today. Most just have blinkers with some tiny AAA cells in there.
> The designers of those things usually weren't even smart enough to
> integrate a low-battery warning so I often see riders where the rear
> light has fizzled to the power of a glowing cigarette tip.

Those AAA cell lights are really annoying.

My favorite tail light is the CatEye TL-LD1100 which uses two AA cells.
It also is one of the few tail lights that still has side-pointing LEDs
as well are rear pointing LEDs.

Still available from Asia.
<https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/CATEYE-Bike-Bicycle-6-LED-Rear-Tail-Laser-Light-Bike-Back-Red-Light-Safety-Warning-Flashing/434036_32786881487.html>.

[Joerg]

On 2018-02-11 08:25, sms wrote:
> On 2/8/2018 4:25 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2018-02-08 16:01, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

Nice but I am not willing to pay $200 just for a front light when I can
buy a fully adequate one for under $20. Swapping the lens is needed but
done in minutes.

>
> You're absolutely right regarding waste of excess power, and there's no
> reason for this with a better design. A dynamo charging a 2P Li-Ion
> power pack with a buck switcher would solve this problem, at least until
> the batteries are fully charged, but then you could choose to disconnect
> the dynamo from the load.

That is how I used dynamos in the past and would like to do that again.
However, in the US it is hard to find a reasonably priced complete front
wheel with a hub dynamo and I don't want to spoke up my own. So it'll
have to be a bottle dynamo (rollers went the way of the dinosuars) and
then I'd like to try Frank's mode with an O-ring and run it on the brake
surface nstead of the tire.

[Joerg]

Does it at least have a low-battery warning?

[sms]

On 2/11/2018 10:02 AM, Joerg wrote:

> That is how I used dynamos in the past and would like to do that again.
> However, in the US it is hard to find a reasonably priced complete front
> wheel with a hub dynamo and I don't want to spoke up my own. So it'll
> have to be a bottle dynamo (rollers went the way of the dinosuars) and
> then I'd like to try Frank's mode with an O-ring and run it on the brake
> surface nstead of the tire.

If we were ever to move to dynamos in the U.S. it would require that
bicycle manufacturers have their dealers offer a dynamo wheel upgrade
and light on new bikes at a reasonable price. Spending $200 on a new
wheel and another $200 on a decent dynamo light is just not going to
happen for almost anyone. Yet the extra cost to a bicycle manufacturer
would be small, $50 max for a higher-end SP or Shimano dynamo plus a 200
lumen headlight and a tail light. The shop could mark it up to $100.

[sms]

On 2/11/2018 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> Does it at least have a low-battery warning?

Yes, the LEDs get dimmer.

[Ralph Barone]

Sure. There are six red LEDs at the back of the unit. When they get really
dim, your battery is low.

PS: What is the use of a low battery indicator on a device that is mounted
where you can't see it?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/11/2018 10:55 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-02-10 18:25, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:25:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/10/2018 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or
>>>> rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again
>>>> at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it.
>>>
>>> I agree with this.
>>>
>>> But I'd add, before buying high powered LED lights, check out any more
>>> ordinary lights you have in a similar way. Have a friend ride your bike
>>> as you observe. I've done this many times with friends.
>>>
>>> Contrary to current myths, you do not need super-powerful lights to be
>>> plenty visible. Any headlight that shows the road sufficiently will be
>>> perfectly visible to motorists, and taillights need far, far less power
>>> to make you safe.
>>
>
> I had plenty of opportunity to compare StVZO tail lights versus the over
> there "illegal" lights such as PDW DangerZone or Radbot. HUGE difference
> in visibility.

Joerg, I don't think anyone disagrees that super-bright, non-compliant,
glaring lights make you more visible. Using an aircraft landing light
would make you more visible. Using an emergency vehicle light bar
http://www.fleetsafety.com/federal-signal-legend-led-light-bar/
would make you more visible.

What many people are arguing is that your extremes are not necessary and
not even appropriate. They are detrimental to other road users,
including other cyclists, and their promotion constitutes more fear
mongering. You're being no smarter than the asses who always drive their
jacked-up pickups with high beams, light bars and fog lights glaring.
It's MFFY behavior.

A bicyclist does NOT need headlights as bright as those on a 75 mph car,
just as he does not need 10 gauge spokes, motorcycle-strength chains,
solid flat-proof tires or all the other extreme equipment you call for.


- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

The antecedent of "those" was not clear. But we're still left with the
fact that you use "full lumens" day or night. No matter what lenses
you're using, that's a "Danger! Danger!" mentality.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Again, you're a marvel of inconsistency. Weight doesn't matter on the
mountain bike because it has to be oh so rugged for your oh so gnarly
riding, including the off-road expeditions you've described to reach
your customers. But dyno drag equivalent to climbing eighteen feet in
mile is unthinkable?

I was talking about riding 20 mph with the dyno off, 19 mph with it on.
You pretend that's a critical difference for you? Over a 20 mile trip,
it would amount to three minutes difference. No reasonable person would
schedule utility trips so tightly that such tiny margins would be
important. If you did, you're going to be in trouble the next time the
wind shifts unexpectedly.

And wind does shift, Joerg. It shifts as frequently as your arguments.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

LOL, that's what I said.

> PS: What is the use of a low battery indicator on a device that is mounted
> where you can't see it?

True. Plus sticking a couple of AA cells in your tool bag is not a big
deal. Running wires all over the bicycle to power lights from a central
power source has its drawbacks.

[jbeattie]

On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 7:55:43 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> On 2018-02-10 18:25, John B. wrote:
> > On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:25:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2/10/2018 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or
> >>> rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again
> >>> at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it.
> >>
> >> I agree with this.
> >>
> >> But I'd add, before buying high powered LED lights, check out any more
> >> ordinary lights you have in a similar way. Have a friend ride your bike
> >> as you observe. I've done this many times with friends.
> >>
> >> Contrary to current myths, you do not need super-powerful lights to be
> >> plenty visible. Any headlight that shows the road sufficiently will be
> >> perfectly visible to motorists, and taillights need far, far less power
> >> to make you safe.
> >
>
> I had plenty of opportunity to compare StVZO tail lights versus the over
> there "illegal" lights such as PDW DangerZone or Radbot. HUGE difference
> in visibility. This was as a motorist in Germany. Since I am also a
> cyclist I paid particular attention to bicycle equipment because I
> wanted to know. I also wanted to see if the purchase of some lights from
> there would make sense since those wouldn't need electronics up front to
> connect to the 8.4VDC power bus on my bicycles. My conclusion was that
> it does not.

Where is "there"? Are you saying that the PDW light was no good and you need a 8.4VDC tail light?

At night, a watt or two is very conspicuous -- except in heavy rainstorms. The most conspicuous light I've every seen was this: https://tinyurl.com/yb5z9ep5 (minus the "beacon lights"). A woman with that jacket was riding east-west, and I was at a stop on a north-south street, and when my light hit her, I was practically blinded -- and it was only a 5-600 lumen light.

If you are really concerned about being seen, you should use high-viz and reflectors, but I know that interferes with your super-gnarly cotton outfits. During the day, I always see the high-viz before the lights.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

My wife doesn't ride a night nearly as often as I do. She's most likely
to do it when we're on vacations somewhere, as transportation to and
from a B&B or something similar.

But her "normal" (not just cycling) lightweight jacket is by Illuminite.
It seems to reflect light very well - not that I consider that
necessary. Our bikes have lights and reflectors that are perfectly fine.


--
- Frank Krygowski