Does anyone know PM-PM-F/R203 adapters

[Joerg]

Attention, a purely technical post :-)

Does anyone know whether these adapters are for going from 160mm native
post mount to 203mm rotors?

https://erpimgs.idealhere.com/ImageFormal/65/ff/df/65ffdf5a-b06b-4dc4-9c3f-8ca09b275658/descriptions/82ff732d-5124-422b-b0de-5c963c864243.jpg

The bellied version (which I'd need) seems to only be available from
Chinese sellers and they either don't understand English or plain don't
know what they are selling. Or both. For example, when I asked the
either-or question whether the adapter is for 160mm to 203mm or for
180mm to 203mm the answer was "No". Refining the question in great
detail resulted in "It's for 203mm". Needless to say, asking for
dimensions so I can calculate it myself is generally fruitless as well.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The Avid disks are 206's I believe. I placed these adapters on the standard mounts of my Redline and they work perfectly.

[Joerg]

You mean you used those PM-PM-F/R203 adapters in the image link above?
Does the Redline have 160mm native posts?

That would be perfect, then they would also work on my MTB. I'd like to
use them for both wheels since both are native 160mm PM for the caliper
mounts. With brake rotors bigger is better.

Slight errors can be fixed by adding washers. If slightly negative my
MTB buddy could grind off a smidgen since he is a tool & die maker and
has machines.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I didn't pay attention to what the original disk size was supposed to be. The Avids wouldn't fit and I bought the adapters which LOOK just like the one's in your picture and the disks are 206 mm as an approximate estimate with something like 3 3/4 radius using a hand held tape measure.

I bought the hydraulic actuation because the reports on the manual disks was universally bad.

[Joerg]

Looks like now they only have bikes for kids :-)

http://redlinebicycles.com/

You and I are too old for BMX so I assume you have a CX or road bike
from them and those are usually 160mm native.

> The Avids wouldn't fit and I bought the adapters which LOOK just
> like the one's in your picture and the disks are 206 mm as an
> approximate estimate with something like 3 3/4 radius using a hand
> held tape measure.
>

Well, then I'll order two of those.

> I bought the hydraulic actuation because the reports on the manual
> disks was universally bad.
>

Hydraulic is clearly better. Some mechanical disc brakes are ok if the
rotors are larger, 7- or 8-inch.

[AMuzi]

"bikes for kids"
??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzS2G-TBhX4&t=188s

Desmond Rhodes? Mike Escamilla?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

Once over 50 then every rider under 40 is like a kid :-)

[Joerg]

So, I just dunnit. The front and back wheels of the MTB now both have 8"
or 203mm rotors. Shimano SM-RT66 (SLX Deore) for now, long term I'll be
looking for solid rotors.

Other than the usual swap dance of washers for shimming until it was
just right it was a painless switch. Braking feels nice and sturdy.

Shimano recommends 18 to 35 in-lbs of torque for the rotor bolts. Seems
wimpy and the previous ones sat way tighter, so I gave it a bit more oomph.

While at it I adjusted out the rattle and play that always develops in
the steerer after a few hundred trail miles. Every time I torque down
those tiny stem bolts at the spec'd 44 in-lbs it feels like they'll
strip the threads out any second.

[jbeattie]

Shimano has tightening plates on their six-bolt rotors. Avid uses a higher torque spec. 5nm should be plenty to keep your stem and headset tight, but probably not in Cameron Park.

- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

All those little things are is a tiny locking lip sticking up for each
screw, pair-wise. That won't hold much. One of the issues with low
torque is the rotor slacking back and forth if you have to hold the bike
from rolling back down a hill, then downhill again, then up, and so on.
Which happens a lot on an MTB. For some reason the manufacturers can't
get the tolerancing in the screws and holes tight enough.


> ... Avid uses a

> higher torque spec. 5nm should be plenty to keep your stem and
> headset tight, but probably not in Cameron Park.
>

It does but only if I smear some grit-laden toothpaste on the fork tube
before sliding on the stem. Not the paste for electric brushing but the
regular paste. What I am saying is that 5nm feels like it's about to
strip the aluminum threads out.

[John B.]

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 10:39:42 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

I think I'd buy a torque meter. And use it :-)

Alternately there might be sufficient material to drill and tap bolt
holes out to the next size, i.e., 5mm -> 6mm.

Another idea might be to see what the real racing boys are using for
stems and use the same. I doubt that a guy racing for a $750,000 first
prize (The winner of the Munga will take home $750,000, followed by
$100,000 for second, and $50,000 for third place ) plans on having
many problems with the stem on his bike.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

On 2017-11-11 18:13, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 10:39:42 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-11-11 07:51, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

>>> ... Avid uses a
>>> higher torque spec. 5nm should be plenty to keep your stem and
>>> headset tight, but probably not in Cameron Park.
>>>
>>
>> It does but only if I smear some grit-laden toothpaste on the fork tube
>> before sliding on the stem. Not the paste for electric brushing but the
>> regular paste. What I am saying is that 5nm feels like it's about to
>> strip the aluminum threads out.
>
> I think I'd buy a torque meter. And use it :-)
>

Trying to be a minimalist I have a makeshift one that was ridiculed here
but when compared to pro gear is more accurate than anything from a
hardware store: A digital suitcase scale. I can torque a screw to
precisely 44 in-lbs. Not 42 or 46 but exactly 44. Try that with one of
those ratchet gizmos.

That tool can also accurately weigh bicycles and other unwieldy devices.
It has a sturdy loop with a click lock.

> Alternately there might be sufficient material to drill and tap bolt
> holes out to the next size, i.e., 5mm -> 6mm.
>

There isn't but worst case I file it flat on the other side and place a
capped steel nut.

> Another idea might be to see what the real racing boys are using for
> stems and use the same. I doubt that a guy racing for a $750,000 first
> prize (The winner of the Munga will take home $750,000, followed by
> $100,000 for second, and $50,000 for third place ) plans on having
> many problems with the stem on his bike.

I wasn't planning on spending $20k+ on a mountain bike.

[John B.]

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 07:38:50 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

wrote:

>On 2017-11-11 18:13, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 10:39:42 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-11-11 07:51, jbeattie wrote:
>
>
>[...]
>
>>>> ... Avid uses a
>>>> higher torque spec. 5nm should be plenty to keep your stem and
>>>> headset tight, but probably not in Cameron Park.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It does but only if I smear some grit-laden toothpaste on the fork tube
>>> before sliding on the stem. Not the paste for electric brushing but the
>>> regular paste. What I am saying is that 5nm feels like it's about to
>>> strip the aluminum threads out.
>>
>> I think I'd buy a torque meter. And use it :-)
>>
>
>Trying to be a minimalist I have a makeshift one that was ridiculed here
>but when compared to pro gear is more accurate than anything from a
>hardware store: A digital suitcase scale. I can torque a screw to
>precisely 44 in-lbs. Not 42 or 46 but exactly 44. Try that with one of
>those ratchet gizmos.
>

Yup, you can use a scale and a carefully measured length wrench but it
is hardly necessary as torque limits always seem to be quite liberal.
Shimano specifies 2 - 4 Nm (18 - 36 "lbs) for brake disc attaching
bolts. No need to get right down to the nth degree.

By the way, in instances where torque is really, really, important,
say the bolts that hold a radial engine crankshaft together the usual
method is to measure the stretch of the bolt rather then the force
required to twist the bolt which is subject to all sorts of
variations.

>That tool can also accurately weigh bicycles and other unwieldy devices.
>It has a sturdy loop with a click lock.
>
>
>> Alternately there might be sufficient material to drill and tap bolt
>> holes out to the next size, i.e., 5mm -> 6mm.
>>
>
>There isn't but worst case I file it flat on the other side and place a
>capped steel nut.
>
>
>> Another idea might be to see what the real racing boys are using for
>> stems and use the same. I doubt that a guy racing for a $750,000 first
>> prize (The winner of the Munga will take home $750,000, followed by
>> $100,000 for second, and $50,000 for third place ) plans on having
>> many problems with the stem on his bike.
>
>
>I wasn't planning on spending $20k+ on a mountain bike.

I doubt that the stem on a racing MTB bike costs much different then
the stem on a cheap bike.

But aren't you the one that is always talking about safety and
isolated instances where you need a rock to be safe? And now you are
willing to forgo quality steering for just some cheap old crap bike?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

I know. Just mentioned it because there are people here who seriously
think the suitcase scale method is inaccurate.

[...]

>>> Another idea might be to see what the real racing boys are using for
>>> stems and use the same. I doubt that a guy racing for a $750,000 first
>>> prize (The winner of the Munga will take home $750,000, followed by
>>> $100,000 for second, and $50,000 for third place ) plans on having
>>> many problems with the stem on his bike.
>>
>>
>> I wasn't planning on spending $20k+ on a mountain bike.
>
> I doubt that the stem on a racing MTB bike costs much different then
> the stem on a cheap bike.
>

They ride with weight weenie parts, a lot more expensive than regular.
They also ride one race and then the whole bike gets fully serviced. I
ride thousands of miles without having a fully sponsored support team.

> But aren't you the one that is always talking about safety and
> isolated instances where you need a rock to be safe? And now you are
> willing to forgo quality steering for just some cheap old crap bike?

That bike is not a cheap one and the stem is name brand (Oval Concepts).

[jbeattie]

No, it's just dopey -- it's like using a nail and a hammer to remove a chain rivet . . . oh wait. Never mind.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

eh what do we know? Never broke a front axle. Ever. You?

[Joerg]

Both methods work fine. Until I got a digital scale as a present I used
a butcher "hook scale" which was just fine. As for the hammer and nail
that is how I opened scores of chains when I had used them up as a
university student. When all you have is a single room of 150sqft or
less and your monthly budget is $300 including rent, utilities, food,
books, beer and all you learn minimalist strategies quickly.

Since about two years I am the proud owner of a chain breaker because it
was part of a PricePoint bike tool kit. I wish they had thrown in a T-25
driver instead because that can't easily be kludged. Do I get my chains
open any faster? Nope.

BTW you also need some rock or a sturdy surface and a steel nut, any old
nut, to lay the chain link onto so the pin flies into that. For that
purpose I used a chunk of railroad flat-bottom rail as an anvil which I
still have.

[Joerg]

My dad topped that. He broke a supposedly sturdy steel frame in half on
a fast ride. Ok, the area had just been heavily bombed during WW-II so
the ride wasn't exactly smooth.

So Andrew, are the axles in the solid-version Shimano HB-TX500 hubs
sturdy in your experience? Then I could buy one and pilfer the axle. In
contrast to the old MTB this one has full suspension (the old one has
none at all). That muffles the blows.

[John B.]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 10:17:12 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Actually a weight would be the most accurate. At least when I worked
in a shop that also certified torque wrenches they were tested with a
dead weight tester

>
>>>> Another idea might be to see what the real racing boys are using for
>>>> stems and use the same. I doubt that a guy racing for a $750,000 first
>>>> prize (The winner of the Munga will take home $750,000, followed by
>>>> $100,000 for second, and $50,000 for third place ) plans on having
>>>> many problems with the stem on his bike.
>>>
>>>
>>> I wasn't planning on spending $20k+ on a mountain bike.
>>
>> I doubt that the stem on a racing MTB bike costs much different then
>> the stem on a cheap bike.
>>
>
>They ride with weight weenie parts, a lot more expensive than regular.
>They also ride one race and then the whole bike gets fully serviced. I
>ride thousands of miles without having a fully sponsored support team.
>
>
>> But aren't you the one that is always talking about safety and
>> isolated instances where you need a rock to be safe? And now you are
>> willing to forgo quality steering for just some cheap old crap bike?
>
>
>That bike is not a cheap one and the stem is name brand (Oval Concepts).

Ooooh. But Oval are way down at the bottom, of the pile. I see them
offered for sale as cheap as $15 while a proper Ritchey is $130 (in
metal, more in Carbon).

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, I've seen a somewhat similar system used to torque 17'
propellers. The wrench was a sort or ring spanner and had about a 10
foot handle on it with stripes painted on it. The prop was held so
that the wrench handle was horizontal and a medium sized mechanic hung
by his hands at a specified stripe and the handle was tapped with a 10
lb. hammer.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:21:33 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Well, unless your butcher's scale was carefully calibrated then you
really had no idea of the torque you were actually applying and a
chain tool costs as little as $4.83 (2017 dollars)....

>Since about two years I am the proud owner of a chain breaker because it
>was part of a PricePoint bike tool kit. I wish they had thrown in a T-25
>driver instead because that can't easily be kludged. Do I get my chains
>open any faster? Nope.
>
>BTW you also need some rock or a sturdy surface and a steel nut, any old
>nut, to lay the chain link onto so the pin flies into that. For that
>purpose I used a chunk of railroad flat-bottom rail as an anvil which I
>still have.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

Butcher scales are way more accurate than the usual ratchet-style torque
wrenches.

[...]

[Joerg]

Sure, that's how you can verify that things such as a suitcase scale is
still accurate. Mine is, very. Whenever I arrived at the airport for a
long trip and heaved my suitcase onto the check-in counter scale it
clocked in exactly at what my luggage scale said it would.

>>
>>>>> Another idea might be to see what the real racing boys are using for
>>>>> stems and use the same. I doubt that a guy racing for a $750,000 first
>>>>> prize (The winner of the Munga will take home $750,000, followed by
>>>>> $100,000 for second, and $50,000 for third place ) plans on having
>>>>> many problems with the stem on his bike.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wasn't planning on spending $20k+ on a mountain bike.
>>>
>>> I doubt that the stem on a racing MTB bike costs much different then
>>> the stem on a cheap bike.
>>>
>>
>> They ride with weight weenie parts, a lot more expensive than regular.
>> They also ride one race and then the whole bike gets fully serviced. I
>> ride thousands of miles without having a fully sponsored support team.
>>
>>
>>> But aren't you the one that is always talking about safety and
>>> isolated instances where you need a rock to be safe? And now you are
>>> willing to forgo quality steering for just some cheap old crap bike?
>>
>>
>> That bike is not a cheap one and the stem is name brand (Oval Concepts).
>
> Ooooh. But Oval are way down at the bottom, of the pile. I see them
> offered for sale as cheap as $15 while a proper Ritchey is $130 (in
> metal, more in Carbon).

Quote "I doubt that the stem on a racing MTB bike costs much different
then the stem on a cheap bike". These were you very own words.

There are people who always say that if a bike didn't cost at least $10k
it's junk. I have a different philosophy. If a piece of technical
equipment is priced somewhere in a reasonable mid-range I expect it to
last. Just like the performance we expect (and get) from our cars which
are more towards the lower end of the price spectrum. That is not asking
too much.

[AMuzi]

Those links were just at the top of an ebay search. If you
have an LBS nearby, start there.

[jbeattie]

Yes, but only because it melted while going 140mph down a volcano in 125 degree heat here in Portland. My tire also caught fire. The guy in front of me lost his brake and couldn't stop. It was lucky he had his drag-chute. http://www.gagnesports.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/parachute-bike.jpg Otherwise, he would have crashed.

I ALWAYS ride with a drag-chute! It's hooked up to a release mechanism in my rear pannier -- in the pocket next to the heart-lung machine. I never take chances, and that's why I won't ride on the road . . . ever. It's too dangerous.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

I am new to Ebay and maybe I am doing something wrong but I can't see
any CroMo 9x1 axles or hubs with CroMo axles.


> ... If you have an LBS nearby, start there.
>

Yeah, I hope Rufus has one back in his shop but it'll be a while until I
get there. If he doesn't have any at least I can pet his Irish
Wolfshound. And 100 yards down the road is a new brewpub.

http://www.solidgroundbrewing.com/

[jbeattie]

Minimalist would be to skip the beer and buy a $3 tool.

I bought a Cyclo Rivoli when I was 12 years old. It was maybe $3 (probably less). https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8222/8336739218_9025e6f46e_z.jpg It was part of my extensive tool kit. https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.1I7mXvYHveBdmodHbUM-8QEsDH&pid=15.1&P=0&w=240&h=160

I went to college with tackle box of tools, a Silca floor pump and a bunch of sew-ups. No dorms -- just a room in a shit-hole house with three other guys. I had a PX10 and no car.

> Since about two years I am the proud owner of a chain breaker because it
> was part of a PricePoint bike tool kit. I wish they had thrown in a T-25
> driver instead because that can't easily be kludged. Do I get my chains
> open any faster? Nope.

Well, I hope you're not opening your chains with a tool considering they probably come with a master-link. You do have to shorten them, and I'll race you any day of the week shortening a chain -- you and your nail and hammer, and me and my chain tool. I'll have the chain shortened before you strike your first blow.

>
> BTW you also need some rock or a sturdy surface and a steel nut, any old
> nut, to lay the chain link onto so the pin flies into that. For that
> purpose I used a chunk of railroad flat-bottom rail as an anvil which I
> still have.

Maybe you do, but for the last 45+ years, I've just used a tool.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 16:22:37 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

I'm sure that a spring scale can be calibrated and read accurately but
I can also say that when certifying a gas pipe line either for a
certifying agency or an insurance company nothing but a dead weight
scale is allowed.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ralph Barone]

I call bullshit. It never gets up to 125 in Portland.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/13/2017 7:31 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>
> There are people who always say that if a bike didn't cost at least $10k
> it's junk. I have a different philosophy. If a piece of technical
> equipment is priced somewhere in a reasonable mid-range I expect it to
> last. Just like the performance we expect (and get) from our cars which
> are more towards the lower end of the price spectrum. That is not asking
> too much.

I agree about expecting things to last. And I've done pretty well with
bikes. But just yesterday, I was saying to one of my good riding friends
that I'm disappointed in my Cannondale touring bike. Corrosion has
bubbled some of the paint. Maybe this winter I'll pay for a respray or
for powder coat. Damn thing is only 31 years old.

The 1972 Raleigh is still going strong, but of course it's not all
original. The old custom tandem is doing well too, except for the
terribly designed front fork that broke after only 29 years. I really am
pissed about that. The folding bike is perfect, but it's only 11 years
old, and it doesn't get all that much use.

Regarding cars - well, I can't even remember how many we've used up
since the 1970s. It's a lot. I managed to keep one going until it was 26
years old because I liked it so well, but that became a constant repair
project.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

At the speeds you ride I'd think that a zero-zero ejection system
would be superior and being zero speed and zero altitude it could also
be used to avoid the occasional harassing auto.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Ah but you are forgetting "Aerodynamic heating", the heating of a
solid body produced by its high-speed passage through air whereby its
kinetic energy is converted to heat by skin friction on the surface of
the object at a rate that depends on the viscosity and speed of the
air.

Those left coast riders are really fast :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

Nooo!

Also, minimalist to me isn't being Mr.Frugal but trying to live with the
least amount of stuff. If I had a bike repair shop I'd naturally have a
chain breaker (but not a chintzy $3 edition) and several torque
wrenches. BEing a hobbyist I simply don't see teh need.

> I bought a Cyclo Rivoli when I was 12 years old. It was maybe $3
> (probably less).
> https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8222/8336739218_9025e6f46e_z.jpg It
> was part of my extensive tool kit.
> https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.1I7mXvYHveBdmodHbUM-8QEsDH&pid=15.1&P=0&w=240&h=160
>
> I went to college with tackle box of tools, a Silca floor pump and a
> bunch of sew-ups. No dorms -- just a room in a shit-hole house with
> three other guys. I had a PX10 and no car.
>

Similar with me. However, I invested any free cash I had in electronics
parts and ham radio. Oh, and beer.

>> Since about two years I am the proud owner of a chain breaker
>> because it was part of a PricePoint bike tool kit. I wish they had
>> thrown in a T-25 driver instead because that can't easily be
>> kludged. Do I get my chains open any faster? Nope.
>
> Well, I hope you're not opening your chains with a tool considering
> they probably come with a master-link. You do have to shorten them,
> and I'll race you any day of the week shortening a chain -- you and
> your nail and hammer, and me and my chain tool. I'll have the chain
> shortened before you strike your first blow.

You'd be surprised. The anvil is always on the bench where I work in
chains et cetera. The whole bike goes on there for maintenance. The nail
used to sit in the top drawer next to the screwdrivers and the hammers
are five drawers below. It was fast. But now I have a chain tool because
it came with a large kit.

Oh, and by the way, the chain breaker of a friend didn't work with a
thick 5-speed chain. So I went home and got that nail ...

>>
>> BTW you also need some rock or a sturdy surface and a steel nut,
>> any old nut, to lay the chain link onto so the pin flies into that.
>> For that purpose I used a chunk of railroad flat-bottom rail as an
>> anvil which I still have.
>
> Maybe you do, but for the last 45+ years, I've just used a tool.
>

It's even more extreme with brewing. The fancy guys have a $800
stainless steel fermenter, I use two $15 food grade 6-1/2 gallon pails
(and thus can and do brew two different beers). The beer doesn't taste
any different and it doesn't go any faster.

[Joerg]

On 2017-11-13 18:49, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/13/2017 7:31 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>
>> There are people who always say that if a bike didn't cost at least
>> $10k it's junk. I have a different philosophy. If a piece of technical
>> equipment is priced somewhere in a reasonable mid-range I expect it to
>> last. Just like the performance we expect (and get) from our cars
>> which are more towards the lower end of the price spectrum. That is
>> not asking too much.
>
> I agree about expecting things to last. And I've done pretty well with
> bikes. But just yesterday, I was saying to one of my good riding friends
> that I'm disappointed in my Cannondale touring bike. Corrosion has
> bubbled some of the paint. Maybe this winter I'll pay for a respray or
> for powder coat. Damn thing is only 31 years old.
>

Should have bought a Gazelle frame :-)

Mine is from 1982 and has live in Europe much of its life where they
used to liberally spray salt during winter.

> The 1972 Raleigh is still going strong, but of course it's not all
> original. The old custom tandem is doing well too, except for the
> terribly designed front fork that broke after only 29 years. I really am
> pissed about that. The folding bike is perfect, but it's only 11 years
> old, and it doesn't get all that much use.
>
> Regarding cars - well, I can't even remember how many we've used up
> since the 1970s. It's a lot. I managed to keep one going until it was 26
> years old because I liked it so well, but that became a constant repair
> project.
>

Our two cars are now 21 and 22 years old. Not a lick of trouble and they
look like new. No rust, nada. The Audi Station wagon I had in Germany
pretty much survived owner #3 and AFAIK is still going, built in 1987.
The pickup truck of my MTB riding buddy is from the mid 50's. It has a
new engine but only because the previous owner wanted more oomph.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 11/14/2017 4:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>
> Our two cars are now 21 and 22 years old. Not a lick of trouble and they
> look like new.

Yes, I remember your claim that despite its age, at least one of your
cars has never needed any repair, not even to have a light bulb changed.

I wonder if anyone here really believes you. I certainly don't.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2017-11-15 11:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/14/2017 4:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>
>> Our two cars are now 21 and 22 years old. Not a lick of trouble and
>> they look like new.
>
> Yes, I remember your claim that despite its age, at least one of your
> cars has never needed any repair, not even to have a light bulb changed.
>

Correct. The Mitsubishi Montero Sport from 1997. Of course I had the
timing belts swapped because of age. When they came out they looked like
new. Just like we humans buy new shoes and undergo colonoscopies after a
certain age cars also need PM and check-ups.

What I claimed was that there was never a defect. Because there wasn't.

> I wonder if anyone here really believes you. I certainly don't.
>

I do not care.