Handlebar bottleholder, in-flight failure, fix

[Joerg]

Folks,

In case someone else has this type of bottleholder. On a gnarly section
of trail my handlebar bottleholder disintegrated. Luckily it did not get
sucked into the front wheel spokes or I probably would be quite bruised.

It turns out that the lower and upper portion are not made from a single
piece of wire but are separate. The press-fit of the lower section let
go and off it went. So I made a bracket that prevents it from sliding out:

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/bottleholder.JPG

The rubber is a snippet from an old road bike tube to prevent rattling
and also chafing of the rear brake hose.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[AMuzi]

The Ancients had that all worked out:

http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Bicycles_Table/Italian_Bicycles/Legnano_Bicycles/Legnano_GP_II/Legnano_GS/Legnano_GS_Bottles_3.jpg

In modernity we have lost their knowledge.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Duane]

There are still innovators:
http://tinyurl.com/ohsegn7

[avag...@gmail.com]

1 April, 1971

hahahhahehhehehhwhuwhuwwhu...

there's a seperatorae on the Raleigh's downtube...there so long I forgot the mount was there.

I should paint it

[Joerg]

On 2015-07-14 5:13 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 7/13/2015 6:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> In case someone else has this type of bottleholder. On a
>> gnarly section of trail my handlebar bottleholder
>> disintegrated. Luckily it did not get sucked into the front
>> wheel spokes or I probably would be quite bruised.
>>
>> It turns out that the lower and upper portion are not made
>> from a single piece of wire but are separate. The press-fit
>> of the lower section let go and off it went. So I made a
>> bracket that prevents it from sliding out:
>>
>> http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/bottleholder.JPG
>>
>> The rubber is a snippet from an old road bike tube to
>> prevent rattling and also chafing of the rear brake hose.
>>
>
> The Ancients had that all worked out:
>
> http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Bicycles_Table/Italian_Bicycles/Legnano_Bicycles/Legnano_GP_II/Legnano_GS/Legnano_GS_Bottles_3.jpg
>

I could imagine the park ranger stopping me and wanting to know what's
in those bottles :-)

>
> In modernity we have lost their knowledge.
>

But with that contraption one would not want to get into this kind of
situation and get all cut up by the hose clamps:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV9_i9MEnMg

[AMuzi]

Louison Bobet, Fiorenzo Magni, Gino Bartali et al seemed to
manage Coloral bottles and cages with grace while conquering
mountains on semi-paved roads.

random photo selection, nearly all with that setup:
http://images.devilfinder.com/go.php?q=bobet+magni+bartali

note the road surfaces.

[Frank Krygowski]

Perhaps they watched the road surface, unlike the guy in Joerg's video?

I've wondered why water bottles migrated from easy-to-reach handlebars
to down tubes and seat tubes, at least on racing bikes. Tourists and
utility riders often have handlebar bags, which is why I don't have my
bottles there. But I'd think bottles on bars would be to a racer's
advantage.

On our tandem, the stoker's bottle is attached to the handlebar.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

yes we see, thanks and off course we watched the film.

if you have drum brakes then what ?

as said......everyone is moving at the same relative speeds ceptin' whatshisname...we guess the big move is one cork not 2

[avag...@gmail.com]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx


gnaw....you gotta use one hand with the bottles on bar.....

[sms]

I've been looking for a good cage for large bottles. I saw a review of
several models, many of which were junk. The good one was this one:
<http://bbbcycling.com/accessories/bottle-cages/BBC-15>.

Not sold in the U.S., but I have to go to the UK soon so I may look for
one if I have time. Hopefully can do some bicycling there too. I've
ridden in a couple of countries where they drive on the "wrong" side of
the road.




--
"It's best not to argue with people who are determined to lose. Once
you've told them about a superior alternative your responsibility is
fulfilled and you can allow them to lose in peace." Mark Crispin,
inventor of the IMAP protocol.

[Joerg]

A gravel road is a luxury in some areas around here. One road that I use
a lot, right in our little town, I think I've shown it before:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chapparal1.JPG

> random photo selection, nearly all with that setup:
> http://images.devilfinder.com/go.php?q=bobet+magni+bartali
>
> note the road surfaces.
>

Well, here is one example of the "roads" I use a lot, this one is a
stretch on the way from Lotus to Folsom:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5cjAW_nrl4

Some are a bit more gnarly.

[Joerg]

On 2015-07-14 9:36 AM, sms wrote:
> On 7/14/2015 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-07-14 5:13 AM, AMuzi wrote:

[...]

>>>
>>> In modernity we have lost their knowledge.
>>>
>>
>> But with that contraption one would not want to get into this kind of
>> situation and get all cut up by the hose clamps:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV9_i9MEnMg
>
> I've been looking for a good cage for large bottles. I saw a review of
> several models, many of which were junk. The good one was this one:
> <http://bbbcycling.com/accessories/bottle-cages/BBC-15>.
>

That could work, minus the claps at the top because that looks too
flimsy. Provided that the U-bracket welds are really sturdy. The
handlebar clamp on mine is very good, has a big fat bolt going through it.

> Not sold in the U.S., but I have to go to the UK soon so I may look for
> one if I have time. Hopefully can do some bicycling there too. I've
> ridden in a couple of countries where they drive on the "wrong" side of
> the road.
>

I haven't bicycled in one of those countries yet but probably would have
to be careful. As a pedestrian in Scotland I almost stepped in front of
a bus. In a car I found left-side driving very easy, did it in Scotland
and Ireland. It was pleasant because I am right-handed and then can
leave my right hand on the steering wheel while shifting with the left hand.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/14/2015 12:57 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2015-07-14 9:36 AM, sms wrote:
>> I've
>> ridden in a couple of countries where they drive on the "wrong" side of
>> the road.
>>
>
> I haven't bicycled in one of those countries yet but probably would have
> to be careful. As a pedestrian in Scotland I almost stepped in front of
> a bus.

After riding for three weeks in Ireland, I thought I was completely
acclimated. But one morning, leaving the home of a friend, I headed off
on the right (i.e. wrong) side of the street.

It caused no problem because the little residential street was free of
traffic. But it shows that habits die hard.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2015-07-14 10:56 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/14/2015 12:57 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-07-14 9:36 AM, sms wrote:
>>> I've
>>> ridden in a couple of countries where they drive on the "wrong" side of
>>> the road.
>>>
>>
>> I haven't bicycled in one of those countries yet but probably would have
>> to be careful. As a pedestrian in Scotland I almost stepped in front of
>> a bus.
>
> After riding for three weeks in Ireland, I thought I was completely
> acclimated. But one morning, leaving the home of a friend, I headed off
> on the right (i.e. wrong) side of the street.
>

That's exactly the problem. Morning, a fresh day, it's been >10h since
in traffic last time, and worst case you are the only one on the road.

> It caused no problem because the little residential street was free of
> traffic. But it shows that habits die hard.
>

In Ireland I once had a German VW van come at me. He was on the wrong
side of the road. Luckily we were both very slow so we just laughed it
off. We rented a house way out there in the boonies, in Killaloe on the
Shannon.

[Peter Howard]

In the same era, gnomish 5'3" Breton Jean Robic, le winner of Le Tour
1947 would collect a lead-filled water bottle from a helper at the top
of cols. He felt that his light body-weight was an impediment to fast
descending. The unsporting organizers of Le Tour de France found they
didn't have a rule against it so they created one forbidding water
bottles filled with a solid. It's said that Robic switched to a bottle
filled with mercury then.
PH

[avag...@gmail.com]

Some are a bit more gnarly.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzoooooommmmmmmmmmm



https://goo.gl/Ep12hK

https://goo.gl/0KtpIv

your routings suffer from miserable woods management. How's the drought dust ?
Parkfield Grade is very California Science Fiction post gold digging landscape. Platina has a clearcut covered solid with an understory plant name escapes me....extremely weird...I do not find that in GooMaps.

https://goo.gl/DDGhmg

with all the dirt....can you GooMap Route a dirt commute from A to B showing the dirt hypotenuse over a road 2 or more legger ?

does your dirt show in GooMaps ?

[avag...@gmail.com]

more Alderpoint

https://goo.gl/En0kZH

[avag...@gmail.com]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

https://goo.gl/N2e4vU

Today is Bass Till Day !

[Joerg]

On 2015-07-14 3:36 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> Some are a bit more gnarly.
>
> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzoooooommmmmmmmmmm
>
>
>
> https://goo.gl/Ep12hK
>
> https://goo.gl/0KtpIv
>
> your routings suffer from miserable woods management. How's the
> drought dust ?

Not quite this bad but sometimes riders have to keep 100ft distance or
they'll start coughing up brownish stuff:

http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/6640750/


> ... Parkfield Grade is very California Science Fiction

> post gold digging landscape. Platina has a clearcut covered solid
> with an understory plant name escapes me....extremely weird...I do
> not find that in GooMaps.
>

Looks like oaks and grass to me. Most of my rides are offraod and there
the star thistle is the state plant. A weed that intruded California a
decade or so ago, very nasty. If you blow through that at 20mph it can
draw blood. BTDT, a lot.

> https://goo.gl/DDGhmg
>
> with all the dirt....can you GooMap Route a dirt commute from A to B
> showing the dirt hypotenuse over a road 2 or more legger ?
>

Google maps doesn't have most trails at all. All one can do is look at
the beginning of a bush road. Here is one I use every week:

https://goo.gl/maps/JvvXK

This is where another one starts:

https://goo.gl/maps/EEzJW

Farther in it looks like this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/CoachLane1.JPG

> does your dirt show in GooMaps ?
>

Google maps seems to be going downhill a bit WRT bicycling. They never
have pics from trails because their cars can't go there. But now they
even don't show part of the El Dorado Trail anymore and that's a
mainstream singletrack out here, like a "bush highway". So I don't use
that service much anymore.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/15/2015 10:09 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
>
>
> I used to love having handlebar mounted bottle holders, as with a
> straw, I could take a drink without using my hands.
> It encourages regualr sipping of drinks instead of gulping at them,
> which is a Good Thing. With downtube shifters, each time you reach
> down to change gear, you almost get poked in the face with the straw,
> so it becomes almost automatic to take a sip.

When I did my only double century (once was enough for me) I used that
trick. I propped a large bottle with a straw in my handlebar bag.
Especially when on the aero bar, it was easy to lean forward and take a
sip. There was the added benefit of not doing hundreds of one-handed
pushups to reach for a frame mounted bottle, and not breaking out of
aero configuration.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2015-07-15 7:12 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Tue, 14 Jul 2015

> If you can't manage to mount a bottle cage on the handlebars without
> leaving sharp edges in dangerous positions, you should get someone
> competent to do it for you.
>

As the photo in my first post evidences I can do so. The "ancients" took
a major risk with their contraptions. I'd never even leave the garage
with one of those.

[Joerg]

On 2015-07-15 7:09 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> considered Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:13:46 -0500

> the perfect time to write:
>

> I used to love having handlebar mounted bottle holders, as with a
> straw, I could take a drink without using my hands.
> It encourages regualr sipping of drinks instead of gulping at them,
> which is a Good Thing. With downtube shifters, each time you reach
> down to change gear, you almost get poked in the face with the straw,
> so it becomes almost automatic to take a sip.
>

> That's particularly useful when you are starting to struggle, and one
> of the bottles has an energy mix in it (home produced, in those days).
>

One of the wee problems with a handlebar mount is that, when on gnarly
MTB turf, some of the water gets ejected during heavy jolts and lands on
the feet, legs, bike frame or elsewhere. With a sugary energy mix that
would make a mess and I'd probably have bees chasing me.

Now if I just could get a 20-30W roller dynamo going I could have a beer
cooler on my bike :-)

[Frank Krygowski]

Hmm. Are there any serious injuries documented as a result of that
"major risk"?

If not, it's probably not a "major risk." Instead, it's more "Danger!
Danger!" nonsense.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/15/2015 1:02 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
> One of the wee problems with a handlebar mount is that, when on gnarly
> MTB turf, some of the water gets ejected during heavy jolts and lands on
> the feet, legs, bike frame or elsewhere. With a sugary energy mix that
> would make a mess and I'd probably have bees chasing me.

Oooh, scary!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

Buy some 790ml POERADE, drink the stuff sometime, and use the empty bottle as your new water bottle. The 790ml POWERADE bottle has a flip cover that protects the spout from getting contaminate and also stops the contents from being spilled. I like those bottles a lot because if you ride through some wet farm field runoff you don't crap on your bottle spout.

Or you can get a Camelback and not worry about bottles at all.

Cheers

[Joerg]

Ever seen a calf muscle slit halfway through? I have. And yes, it was a
bicycle accident. During a bad fall an aftermarket fender had acted as a
knife. The sad thing is that it would have been totally unavoidable but
the rider must have had a similar negligent thought process like you
just professed.

[Joerg]

They fit a standard bottle cage? That's a good idea. Although the spout
on my current bottle is like that and after a short time it became tough
to open and close.

> Or you can get a Camelback and not worry about bottles at all.
>

I've got one but only go through that filling-emptying-storage hassle if
it's a really long trip. Like a 50+ miler in the hills on a 105F day.

[James]

<yawn at more imagined threats>

I only put water in my water bottles.

--
JS

[James]

If it was "totally unavoidable" there was nothing that could have been
done to avoid it.

I hope you have guards around your chainrings. I once saw a guy with an
imprint of the large chainring across his forehead - like Frankenstein's
monster where the top of his head had been stitched back on.

Oh, and do you use soft rubbery pedals or shin guards? I've seen some
nasty leg wounds inflicted by pedals.

How about those spokes? Ever seen the result of a body part that gets
inserted between the spokes of a spinning bicycle wheel? I have. It's
not pretty. I hope you use disc wheels front and back to avoid that
kind of injury. After all, it is totally avoidable.

--
JS

[Duane]

Me too. But I also put electrolyte powder in one of them. No sugar though.
Lol.

--
duane

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/15/2015 3:32 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
>
> Buy some 790ml POERADE, drink the stuff sometime, and use the empty bottle
as your new water bottle. The 790ml POWERADE bottle has a flip cover that
protects the spout from getting contaminate and also stops the contents
from being spilled. I like those bottles a lot because if you ride through
some wet farm field runoff you don't crap on your bottle spout.

I use fenders. They keep crap off water bottles as well as many other
parts of the bike+rider.

I've mentioned this before, but on our very wet tour of Ireland (OK,
some redundancy there) we were in Killarney National Park. Tourists get
hauled about on horse drawn carriages, and the horse exhaust mixed with
the rain to make poop soup all over the roads. We were _really_ glad we
had fenders.

The scene was repeated later on the Dingle Peninsula, but with a
different recipe. There it was sheep.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

analogconsultants.com/.....


gray pine.....landscape was cut under to clay-limestone ? I looked in Google Earth. Whatta slum !

get me yearning for a cool breeze above Garberville..

we have wind from the west, columnar thunderstorms all day...tide was in at noon, water out will take awhile

we're at 8' with the back Gulf abt 200 yards south.

I'm sitting in my van on a meadow lane surrounded by greenness, rain, thunder rolling. Another 200 yards an its Gatorville. .5 mile west n a new Wal is going up or in....which should change the ambience somewhat.

[Joerg]

On 2015-07-15 2:56 PM, James wrote:
> On 16/07/15 05:38, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-07-15 12:27 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/15/2015 12:57 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2015-07-15 7:12 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you can't manage to mount a bottle cage on the handlebars without
>>>>> leaving sharp edges in dangerous positions, you should get someone
>>>>> competent to do it for you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As the photo in my first post evidences I can do so. The "ancients"
>>>> took
>>>> a major risk with their contraptions. I'd never even leave the garage
>>>> with one of those.
>>>
>>> Hmm. Are there any serious injuries documented as a result of that
>>> "major risk"?
>>>
>>> If not, it's probably not a "major risk." Instead, it's more "Danger!
>>> Danger!" nonsense.
>>>
>>
>> Ever seen a calf muscle slit halfway through? I have. And yes, it was a
>> bicycle accident. During a bad fall an aftermarket fender had acted as a
>> knife. The sad thing is that it would have been totally unavoidable but
>> the rider must have had a similar negligent thought process like you
>> just professed.
>>
>
> If it was "totally unavoidable" there was nothing that could have been
> done to avoid it.
>

Sorry, meant totally avoidable. Simply by rounding all the edges and
making sure nothing too sharp protrudes.

> I hope you have guards around your chainrings. I once saw a guy with an
> imprint of the large chainring across his forehead - like Frankenstein's
> monster where the top of his head had been stitched back on.
>
> Oh, and do you use soft rubbery pedals or shin guards? I've seen some
> nasty leg wounds inflicted by pedals.
>

My main concern, and a serious one, are rock hits. The rocks get spit
upwards off the sides of the front wheel and then fly into my shins at
whatever speed I am traveling at. That really hurts and often there's blood.

> How about those spokes? Ever seen the result of a body part that gets
> inserted between the spokes of a spinning bicycle wheel? I have. It's
> not pretty. I hope you use disc wheels front and back to avoid that
> kind of injury. After all, it is totally avoidable.
>

They don't make those for MTB. Some things take a lot of effort. Others
such as bottle holders don't. All it takes to do it properly is an extra
10 minutes and a bench grinder.

[Joerg]

On 2015-07-15 3:55 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> analogconsultants.com/.....
>
>
> gray pine.....landscape was cut under to clay-limestone ? I looked in Google Earth. Whatta slum !
>

Where I live? Looks like you've never been there. Google does not know.
But I do. If, for example, you head out on the El Dorado Trail west you
come through an area that looks like Switzerland, less the roads and
population density. Absolutely pristine.

Go up towards Cronan Ranch and it looks like this:

http://www.roadbikereview.com/reviews/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/South_Fork_American_River.jpg

[avag...@gmail.com]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

oh my yes I once lived there...not quite as affluent nor was our landscape so tender n delicate. We also had the ecoluxury of hay and cattle, dairy cows...Jerseys n Holsteins...a hoof based transportation and food system puring nutrients back into the logged soils.

which your are not. After living thru one transition, I am pained by the coaless west.

I went to Parsippany High School, NJ at Vail and Baldwin 20 miles from and overlooking the NYC skyline amid rolling hills of grasses. The farm back door went out becoming First Brands campus.

During the TRANSISTION from agrarian burbs to non agrarian burbs, we could walk for days thru field and woods all the way to Point Vincente. No more.

Vail was Morse's financier, Baldwin the locomotive people.

Down the road from Al Vail's summer house on a mill pond is Speedwell Ave, down the road from Jockey Hollow and Washington's HQ. Speedwell is touted as a main location for the start of the American Industrial Revolution.

We could hike over and back or ride bike. A Columbia with chrome fenders. The works.

Gone.

Switzerland....eyeyyhahhahhahha...yeah I can see from Google Earth. Bear lake dam is nice....

I do seismology based animal behavior. Traveling the San Andreas tour 3x with Streets n Trips GPS....no traffic out in the country...amazing. But the only time near your dump is at Auburn for the Auburn-Sacramento TdC leg.

I offered George H a hand.....

[Joe Riel]

Was it his own chainring? That seems an impressive trick.

--
Joe Riel

[Sir Ridesalot]

A lot of off road riders don't use fenders. A lot of bicycles won't even take fenders which is why
I recommended the POWERADE bottles or Camelback.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 6:58:09 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> >
>
> My main concern, and a serious one, are rock hits. The rocks get spit
> upwards off the sides of the front wheel and then fly into my shins at
> whatever speed I am traveling at. That really hurts and often there's blood.
>
>
> > How about those spokes? Ever seen the result of a body part that gets
> > inserted between the spokes of a spinning bicycle wheel? I have. It's
> > not pretty. I hope you use disc wheels front and back to avoid that
> > kind of injury. After all, it is totally avoidable.
> >
>
> They don't make those for MTB. Some things take a lot of effort. Others
> such as bottle holders don't. All it takes to do it properly is an extra
> 10 minutes and a bench grinder.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

easy enough to make disc covers for wheels.

Buy a pair of hockey or better yet mtb shin guards and use them.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

That makes sense if you have one of those bicycle.

I recommend bicycles that can take fenders.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B. Slocomb]

Actually I did injure myself (seriously I felt) when I was first
learning how to ride a bicycle. Coasting down a small hill, hit a
garbage can, slid forward on the top tube, stopped by the stem....
Walked "spraddle legged" for about a week.

I suppose that having a stem was, perhaps, "a major risk with their
contraptions", but I've never figured out how to avoid that particular
risk :-)

As I remember it, I came home walking funny and my mother asked me
what happened. When I told her she just said, "well, you'll learn."

I wonder whether that is not a major difference between "The ancients"
and modern day folks. In the old days when you did something stupid
people would say, "Well, he'll learn". Now days when people do
something stupid, the cry is "the government should do something about
that".

--
cheers,

John B.

[Ralph Barone]

But those bottles are only sold in Canada, as far as I can tell. I buy the
Powerade and just pour it down the drain.

[AMuzi]

In the mid-1980s an actual published paper in a real medical
journal was entitled 'Huffy Bike Haematuria'. Ouch.

OMG it's actually preserved online!
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198609183151220



--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

James was talking about disc wheels. That's not rweally available for MTB.

And it won't take care of the main stuff that cause most of my pains and
sometimes bleeding, hits by rocks that fly up.

[Joerg]

Did he even wear a helmet? With mine that kind of injury would be hard
to inflict.

[Joerg]

On 2015-07-15 7:21 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 15:27:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 7/15/2015 12:57 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2015-07-15 7:12 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you can't manage to mount a bottle cage on the handlebars without
>>>> leaving sharp edges in dangerous positions, you should get someone
>>>> competent to do it for you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As the photo in my first post evidences I can do so. The "ancients" took
>>> a major risk with their contraptions. I'd never even leave the garage
>>> with one of those.
>>
>> Hmm. Are there any serious injuries documented as a result of that
>> "major risk"?
>>
>> If not, it's probably not a "major risk." Instead, it's more "Danger!
>> Danger!" nonsense.
>
> Actually I did injure myself (seriously I felt) when I was first
> learning how to ride a bicycle. Coasting down a small hill, hit a
> garbage can, slid forward on the top tube, stopped by the stem....
> Walked "spraddle legged" for about a week.
>
> I suppose that having a stem was, perhaps, "a major risk with their
> contraptions", but I've never figured out how to avoid that particular
> risk :-)
>

When I bought a shorter stem and mounted it with an up-angle my bike
dealer told me not to put more than one 5mm spacer up top. He is a
competition MTB rider and has seen his share on nasty crashes.

Even on my early 80's road bike the top of the quill stem is nicely
rounded towards the rider, like it ought to be.

> As I remember it, I came home walking funny and my mother asked me
> what happened. When I told her she just said, "well, you'll learn."
>
> I wonder whether that is not a major difference between "The ancients"
> and modern day folks. In the old days when you did something stupid
> people would say, "Well, he'll learn". Now days when people do
> something stupid, the cry is "the government should do something about
> that".
>

The government won't care if people mount weird stuff to their bikes and
it ends up hurting them.

[jbeattie]

I know a guy who was strangled with cloth bar tape. Terrible. Another guy crashed and was impaled by an old Power Bar.

>
> Even on my early 80's road bike the top of the quill stem is nicely
> rounded towards the rider, like it ought to be.
>

I really don't get you -- on the one hand, you talk about careening down rock chutes, shredding the gnar on your mountain bike, and then you complain that threadless stems are dangerous? Try a curved top cap -- or a watch. http://www.gizmag.com/stemcaptain-stem-cap-with-clock/18213/pictures You can call it the "death watch." Make it run backwards toward bicycle Armageddon -- which should be any moment for you.


-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

Maybe it's a form of art, like Gene Daniels' creative
writing exercises here. Sorta the text version of art like this:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/ringhead.jpg

[Duane]

Danger! Danger!

I know a guy that was impaled by a kick stand and lost a kidney.
Another that was cut by one of those short fender things and needed a
tourniquet. Clearly no fenders and no kick stands should be legislated.

One guy got a twig in his front wheel on a decent and it wrapped up in
his fork causing him to go over the top. Spent 6 months in a body cast.
Don't need no stinking trees either.

[avag...@gmail.com]

1 April, 1971

on hematuria....the ironman PR wall around long distance racing for lower body organ and tissue injury does not match medical science's positionings on same...butbutbut does follow thru on drug use PR.

ach raining again...we are in monsoooooooon

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I apologize for your inability or incapacity for following intelligent thought patterns.

[Frank Krygowski]

"Hard to inflict" isn't "impossible," and based on your previous posts,
you worry about many hazards that are nearly impossible.

Heck, those nasty chainwheel teeth could get any part of your body. So
you need either protective armor everywhere, or shields around your
chainwheel teeth.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

No, because then I wouldn't mountain bike, at least not in this area.

I am an engineer and so I always weigh risks. Some risks are very easily
mitigated and it would be almost stupid not to do so. As with mundane
stuff like bottle holders. If it takes me 10 more minutes of machine
time in the garage to greatly defuse a risk I will always do that.

[...]

[John B. Slocomb]

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 07:53:18 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

I'm not so sure of that. After all reflectors are mandatory, I
believe, and it seems common knowledge on this site that flashing
lights will keep you safe. So in effect the "government" is mandating
something that isn't safe. at least according to some here.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 14:49:41 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Hmmm... you are an engineer and always weigh risks? But you apparently
continue to engage in an activity which you, yourself, argue is highly
hazardous.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

So? I've done way more dangeous stuff than mountain biking. Such as
parachuting. Life and especially many fun activities are full of danger.
The key is to minimize the risks as much as reasonably possible. 10
minutes with the bench grinder, file and sand paper is reasonable.

[Frank Krygowski]

I think your attitudes toward risk are pretty unrealistic. Parachuting
or skydiving carries hundreds of times the risk, per hour, of ordinary
bicycling, at least in terms of fatalities per hour exposure.
(according to this source, skydiving is about 500 times more dangerous:
http://www.vehicularcyclist.com/comparat.html ) The ratio is
probably similar for serious injuries per hour exposure.

You go on and on about the horrible injuries one might suffer by riding
a bike, yet you brag about riding super-fast on super-rugged terrain,
claiming only super-bright lights keep you from injury. And you jump
out of airplanes. Sorry, Joerg, that's crazily inconsistent.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

Frank, J's laborious narratives, with your participation, are typical adventure narratives...or Sam Hanks with M Rooney

Both real n sur real

I once did same cycling to Walmart...always developed advice

[Joerg]

If it sticks out it is dangerous. On a MTB anything that sticks out is.

There are serval categories of risk, among them are:

a. Risks one choses to take because it is part of a job -> Normal.

b. Risks one choses to accept as part of an interesting hobby -> Ok, as
long as one remains aware of the risks and does not become insensitive
to them.

c. Risks that are avoidable at very little expense of time and money ->
Not tackling those is what I consider stupid.


> ... Try a curved top cap -- or a watch.

> http://www.gizmag.com/stemcaptain-stem-cap-with-clock/18213/pictures
> You can call it the "death watch." Make it run backwards toward
> bicycle Armageddon -- which should be any moment for you.
>

Interesting. This is exactly what I did when I got my MTB, to make sure
I'd be back home in time. It was one of those $5 round watches that
happened to fit. Well, until I bought a speedometer.

[James]

Not in this case. It was a road race crash and someone else's bike, but
on a mountain bike unusual things happen - especially to Joerg - so I
thought it best mentioning.

--
JS

[James]

A helmet was being worn. It was a crash in a road race. Helmets mandatory.

--
JS

[James]

...and regularly causes pain and bleeding from flying monkeys - I mean
rocks. Danger! Danger!

--
JS

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 22:42:45 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>(according to this source, skydiving is about 500 times more dangerous:
> http://www.vehicularcyclist.com/comparat.html ) The ratio is
>probably similar for serious injuries per hour exposure.

Fun with statistics... extracted from the above URL:

fatalities
Activity per million hrs
-------- ---------------
Skydiving 128.71
General Aviation 15.58
Living (all causes of death) 1.53
Passenger cars .47
Bicycling .26

So, how long is 1 million hrs?
1*10^6 hrs / 24 hrs/day / 365 days/year = 114 years.

For bicycling, we have 0.26 fatalities every 114 years
or one fatality every:
114 / 0.26 = 438 years.
If we live the current average lifespan of 71 year, we have one chance
in:
438 / 71 = 6.2
of dying on a bicycle. Or, out of every six people, one will
eventually die riding a bicycle.

Ok, something is obviously wrong. Cyclists are not dropping dead that
rapidly. Let's try a sanity check using the "Living" statistic, which
should yield the 71 year average lifespan:
114 / 1.53 = 74.5 years
5% error is close enough so that's not the problem.

Anyone want to explain why every 6th person isn't dying from a fatal
bicycle accident?
Hint: The statistical population varies with each activity.






--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Rolf Mantel]

I don't know anyboby who cycles 24 hours per day every day.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 18:27:09 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Yes, many things are more dangerous than bicycle riding. And one can
only wonder at all the posts about the dangers of bicycling, which is
in essence, a voluntary pastime. It might be though that if the
participant is worried about the dangers it would be extremely easy to
avoid them.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 20:08:23 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

I see. If it sticks out it is dangerous.... like the handle bars and
the pedals?

>There are serval categories of risk, among them are:
>
>a. Risks one choses to take because it is part of a job -> Normal.
>
>b. Risks one choses to accept as part of an interesting hobby -> Ok, as
>long as one remains aware of the risks and does not become insensitive
>to them.
>
>c. Risks that are avoidable at very little expense of time and money ->
>Not tackling those is what I consider stupid.
>
>
>> ... Try a curved top cap -- or a watch.
>> http://www.gizmag.com/stemcaptain-stem-cap-with-clock/18213/pictures
>> You can call it the "death watch." Make it run backwards toward
>> bicycle Armageddon -- which should be any moment for you.
>>
>
>Interesting. This is exactly what I did when I got my MTB, to make sure
>I'd be back home in time. It was one of those $5 round watches that
>happened to fit. Well, until I bought a speedometer.
--

cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

He didn't say he spent his life crouching under a table with
a helmet quivering in fear. He said he weighs risks.

We all weigh risks:
http://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2015/07/16/andrew-wright-president-and-co-owner-bti-dies-motorcycle-accident#.VajyPEq99PI

And our conclusions are our own.

I note that a recent item in a national US newspaper
highlighted the ever increasing speeds of descents in Le
Tour. Mention was made that younger riders who do not have
minor children take more risk. Which is about right, yes?

[AMuzi]

Well, yes. I knew a man whose spleen was punctured by his
own handlebar end in a track race crash. He lived through
that with prompt repair surgery. A pedal to the head is not
unusual in road race pileups. On a good day it's to the back
of one's helmet rather than in the face.

[Duane]

There are certainly considerations when racing or just group riding in
general that maybe don't apply as much to a single rider on a commute.
Not sure why this is so hard for some to grasp. Also not sure why it's
not possible to discuss this without the danger! danger! nonsense.

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2008/05/20/san-clemente-cyclery-owner-dies-ride#.Vaj7q5XbLFM

54 .......do we note a plateau at 54 ?

here, as for minors

https://www.google.com/#q=MINER+ACCIDENTS&tbm=vid

[avag...@gmail.com]

discuss this ....?

more adventure narrative via Mitty

https://cdn.andertoons.com/img/toons/cartoon5025.png

[avag...@gmail.com]

every misread to action on a green light vs a red light ?

I exited the guardrail area onto road surface on a bridge approach.

Placing my left leg thru the triangle ..was dark at dawn....I swung the right leg over top bar falling into the right lane.

[jbeattie]

BTW, the risk is not from the stem, which is a pretty benign piece of equipment. The risk is from a catastrophic wipe-out on a rocky trail where the likelihood of impaling yourself on a 5mm blunt projection below the level of your bars is infinitesimal compared to the risk of whacking your head on a rock. OTOH, not using a 5mm top spacer is no big deal (although some manufacturers recommend that). It will be your luck rabbit's foot. I have some of those -- like my little flasher on sunny days when traffic gets crazy.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

Yes, they can and occasionally do inflict grave injuries. So does the
gas tank in a car. I was talking about avoidable risks. How are handle
bars and pedals avoidable on a bicycle?

>> There are serval categories of risk, among them are:
>>
>> a. Risks one choses to take because it is part of a job -> Normal.
>>
>> b. Risks one choses to accept as part of an interesting hobby -> Ok, as
>> long as one remains aware of the risks and does not become insensitive
>> to them.
>>
>> c. Risks that are avoidable at very little expense of time and money ->

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>> Not tackling those is what I consider stupid.
>>

[...]

[Joerg]

On 2015-07-17 7:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Thursday, July 16, 2015 at 8:08:17 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-07-16 8:37 AM, jbeattie wrote:

[...]

>>> ... Try a curved top cap -- or a watch.
>>> http://www.gizmag.com/stemcaptain-stem-cap-with-clock/18213/pictures
>>>
>>>
You can call it the "death watch." Make it run backwards toward
>>> bicycle Armageddon -- which should be any moment for you.
>>>
>>
>> Interesting. This is exactly what I did when I got my MTB, to make
>> sure I'd be back home in time. It was one of those $5 round watches
>> that happened to fit. Well, until I bought a speedometer.
>
> BTW, the risk is not from the stem, which is a pretty benign piece of
> equipment. The risk is from a catastrophic wipe-out on a rocky trail
> where the likelihood of impaling yourself on a 5mm blunt projection
> below the level of your bars is infinitesimal compared to the risk of
> whacking your head on a rock. OTOH, not using a 5mm top spacer is no
> big deal (although some manufacturers recommend that). It will be
> your luck rabbit's foot. I have some of those -- like my little
> flasher on sunny days when traffic gets crazy.
>

I purposely have a few millimeters there, mainly because otherwise my
stem doesn't clamp down hard enough with the screws at max torque.

I was referring to situations where people, instead of shortening the
tube far enough, stack several centimeters worth of spacers onto the top
in order to achieve their desired handlebar level. That creates a hazard.

[Joerg]

I haven't had a nasty crash in about eight months now :-)

[Joerg]

> in essence, a voluntary pastime. ...


It is not always voluntary. Ok, I could use the car instead. But for
health and environmental reasons I prefer the bike to bring a package to
the freight service or pick up something, or go to my software engineer,
and to volunteer activites, and ...

In all those cases it is simply a mode of transportation.

Which is why my car might see less than 1000 miles this year. My bikes
probably around 4000.


> ... It might be though that if the

> participant is worried about the dangers it would be extremely easy to
> avoid them.

That's just the thing, it is often easy. Like not being seen in time by
car drivers. Cost me less than a meal at a good restaurant to fix that
(bright lights). Or not being able to stop in time in the rain,
something that disk brakes easily fix at a modest expense.

[jbeattie]

On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 7:50:35 AM UTC-7, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> considered Thu, 16 Jul 2015

> Simple - it's hours of exposure.
> Nobody has ever spent their entire life doing any of those things
> except living (all causes of death).
>
> For cycling, even a professional cyclist is unlikely to total
> (assuming long pre and post professional sporting careers as well) as
> much as 10% of their life cycling - that would be an average of 2 hrs
> 24 mins each day, every day, for their entire life.
>
> For skydiving, the exposure time would be much lower - otherwise the
> figures you give would mean almost all skydivers would have to be
> dead.
>
> Cycling works out far safer than not cycling, of course, which is good
> news for lifetime health insurance costs, but bad news for pensions.

Although I know plenty of non-cyclists who are far more fit than me. In fact, for the spin-class heroes, actual road riding is probably a bad thing since most of them have poor bike-handling skills and are at a fairly high risk of injury -- not because cycling is so dangerous (down Frank, down), but because these gym rats have big motors and tend to ride beyond their ability -- IMO. It's scary watching them descend, particularly in a group. It's particularly scary if you're in the group.

-- Jay Beattie.

[avag...@gmail.com]

when traffic gets crazy.

is crzy...



https://www.google.com/#q=strange+mtb+accidents

[avag...@gmail.com]

if you're in the group.

time for a GoPro........

[Joerg]

On 2015-07-17 7:34 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Wed, 15 Jul 2015

> 12:38:26 -0700 the perfect time to write:
>
>> On 2015-07-15 12:27 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/15/2015 12:57 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2015-07-15 7:12 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you can't manage to mount a bottle cage on the handlebars without
>>>>> leaving sharp edges in dangerous positions, you should get someone
>>>>> competent to do it for you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As the photo in my first post evidences I can do so. The "ancients" took
>>>> a major risk with their contraptions. I'd never even leave the garage
>>>> with one of those.
>>>
>>> Hmm. Are there any serious injuries documented as a result of that
>>> "major risk"?
>>>
>>> If not, it's probably not a "major risk." Instead, it's more "Danger!
>>> Danger!" nonsense.
>>>
>>
>> Ever seen a calf muscle slit halfway through? I have. And yes, it was a
>> bicycle accident. During a bad fall an aftermarket fender had acted as a
>> knife. The sad thing is that it would have been totally unavoidable but
>> the rider must have had a similar negligent thought process like you
>> just professed.
>

> So clearly, you must use a full chaincase then, ...


If one existed it would be on my bike. Because having to clean crud out
of the chain and sprockets every 40-50 miles is a time consuming chore
I'd be glad to lose.


> ... because chainrings are
> demonstrably far more dangerous than mudguards, and the injury they
> cause on contact is going to be far more complex.
> Have you fitted an airbag to your stem yet?
>

As I've said several times now there are risks that can't be avoided at
a reasonable effort and then there are risks that can be, where
mitigation is easy. I prefer to take advantage of the latter.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 07:58:30 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

But, I suggest, a far less dangerous hazard than simply riding a
bicycle on the public highway.

Logically one would cease the most dangerous activities first and than
worry about the far lesser dangers.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 08:08:45 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

That is downright rationalization. Running or jogging is a far more a
healthy activity that cycling and if one takes into consideration the
underlying activity necessary to produce the materials used to
manufacture the bicycle certainly a more environmentally friendly
activity.

>In all those cases it is simply a mode of transportation.
>
>Which is why my car might see less than 1000 miles this year. My bikes
>probably around 4000.
>
>
>> ... It might be though that if the
>> participant is worried about the dangers it would be extremely easy to
>> avoid them.
>
>
>That's just the thing, it is often easy. Like not being seen in time by
>car drivers. Cost me less than a meal at a good restaurant to fix that
>(bright lights). Or not being able to stop in time in the rain,
>something that disk brakes easily fix at a modest expense.

But the outright terror expressed by some cyclists make one wonder why
they just do not stop taking part in this extremely dangerous
activity.

One might consider that "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder" (PTSD) is
caused not only by being exposed to the stressful activity but also by
the worry and terror about taking part in that activity.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 10:28:32 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

But there is no real reason that a chain case could not be made to fit
a derailer equipped bicycle. It would have to contain the derailers of
course but that seems simple enough to make and with current designs
of electric shifts it would be nearly 100% effective.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:34:48 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>

wrote:

>Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Wed, 15 Jul 2015
>12:38:26 -0700 the perfect time to write:
>
>>On 2015-07-15 12:27 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 7/15/2015 12:57 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2015-07-15 7:12 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If you can't manage to mount a bottle cage on the handlebars without
>>>>> leaving sharp edges in dangerous positions, you should get someone
>>>>> competent to do it for you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As the photo in my first post evidences I can do so. The "ancients" took
>>>> a major risk with their contraptions. I'd never even leave the garage
>>>> with one of those.
>>>
>>> Hmm. Are there any serious injuries documented as a result of that
>>> "major risk"?
>>>
>>> If not, it's probably not a "major risk." Instead, it's more "Danger!
>>> Danger!" nonsense.
>>>
>>
>>Ever seen a calf muscle slit halfway through? I have. And yes, it was a
>>bicycle accident. During a bad fall an aftermarket fender had acted as a
>>knife. The sad thing is that it would have been totally unavoidable but
>>the rider must have had a similar negligent thought process like you
>>just professed.
>

>So clearly, you must use a full chaincase then, because chainrings are

>demonstrably far more dangerous than mudguards, and the injury they
>cause on contact is going to be far more complex.
>Have you fitted an airbag to your stem yet?

I recently say a small motorcycle with a "canopy". a Sheet of plastic
formed in almost a circle from the front of the bike, over the
driver's head and down to the rear fender and was said to provide rain
protection.

In thinking about this the penny dropped and I realized that if
instead of plastic sheet this had been a lattice of small metal rods
it could provide containment for an air bag which, with the usual
automatic crash detecting initiator, would completely surround the
rider and provide complete protection in the event of a crash.

It would seem likely that if mandated by law this addition would
provide nearly 100% protection for the cyclist and reduce the current
extremely high rates of bicycle injury and death to minimal numbers.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 07:54:34 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Well, instead of handlebars one could use a wheel, no sharp ends, and
pedals could have cylindrical covers to eliminate the sharp ends.

But you have provided the ultimate solution to the dangers of
bicycling with your remark, "I was talking about avoidable risks". To
avoid the risks associated with bicycle riding simply stop riding.

>
>
>>> There are serval categories of risk, among them are:
>>>
>>> a. Risks one choses to take because it is part of a job -> Normal.
>>>
>>> b. Risks one choses to accept as part of an interesting hobby -> Ok, as
>>> long as one remains aware of the risks and does not become insensitive
>>> to them.
>>>
>>> c. Risks that are avoidable at very little expense of time and money ->
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> Not tackling those is what I consider stupid.
>>>
>
>[...]
--

cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

+10!

Cheers

[avag...@gmail.com]

Ok, describe serious crash injury

Ach du....you need a chain washer n 2 chains. Electric motor with gears down down with cog. Runs chain loop thru solvent bath while you do whatever...

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/17/2015 8:38 AM, Duane wrote:
>
>
> There are certainly considerations when racing or just group riding in
> general that maybe don't apply as much to a single rider on a commute.

True.

> Not sure why this is so hard for some to grasp. Also not sure why it's
> not possible to discuss this without the danger! danger! nonsense.

Joerg gave us yet another senseless "Danger! Danger!" warning. Many
people are disagreeing with him.

Are we supposed to piously agree with any "Danger" warning about bicycling?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/17/2015 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2015-07-17 4:03 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 20:08:23 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If it sticks out it is dangerous. On a MTB anything that sticks out is.
>>>
>> I see. If it sticks out it is dangerous.... like the handle bars and
>> the pedals?
>>
>
> Yes, they can and occasionally do inflict grave injuries. So does the
> gas tank in a car. I was talking about avoidable risks. How are handle
> bars and pedals avoidable on a bicycle?

Are these handlebars dangerous?
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_175533_-1___

Nice rounded ends. You can cover the inward-pointing ends with tennis
balls, if you fear them.

And for pedals, Speedplays are round, so they're SO much safer:
http://cyclinguphill.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/speedplay.jpg

Are cyclists foolish to use anything else?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 7/17/2015 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-07-17 4:03 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 20:08:23 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If it sticks out it is dangerous. On a MTB anything that sticks out is.
>>>>
>>> I see. If it sticks out it is dangerous.... like the handle bars and
>>> the pedals?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, they can and occasionally do inflict grave injuries. So does the
>> gas tank in a car. I was talking about avoidable risks. How are handle
>> bars and pedals avoidable on a bicycle?
>
> Are these handlebars dangerous?
> http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_175533_-1___
>

Yes. Depending on how you mount them and where you are holding them, you
can break your wrist if you go over the bars and forget to let go.

[Ralph Barone]

I'm riding a touring bike and I like the ability to raise my bars a half
inch or more if I've munged my back up the previous day. To compensate, I
just avoid getting ejected into the stem.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 11:40:46 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/17/2015 10:54 AM, Joerg wrote:
> > On 2015-07-17 4:03 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
> >> On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 20:08:23 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> If it sticks out it is dangerous. On a MTB anything that sticks out is.
> >>>
> >> I see. If it sticks out it is dangerous.... like the handle bars and
> >> the pedals?
> >>
> >
> > Yes, they can and occasionally do inflict grave injuries. So does the
> > gas tank in a car. I was talking about avoidable risks. How are handle
> > bars and pedals avoidable on a bicycle?
>
> Are these handlebars dangerous?
> http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_175533_-1___
>
> Nice rounded ends. You can cover the inward-pointing ends with tennis
> balls, if you fear them.
>
>

> Are cyclists foolish to use anything else?
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

You could even use a piece of oversize alluminium to close that gap. Just glue it on with some JB Weld.

Cheers

[Joerg]

That isn't true. Case in point: A friend had jogged most of his life.
Then his hip began to ache. The doc told him that all this jogging on
hard surfaces had worn it down. He urged him to stop jogging and switch
to swimming and bicycling.

Materials: I also walk a lot. This consumes 1-2 pairs of running shoes
per year. These cannot be repaired but must be thrown out and cannot be
recycled because no recycler would take them. My road bike is over 30
years old and if I don't crash hard it might survive me. Every 2000
miles it needs a new rear tire and the old one can be given to the recycler.

>> In all those cases it is simply a mode of transportation.
>>
>> Which is why my car might see less than 1000 miles this year. My bikes
>> probably around 4000.
>>
>>
>>> ... It might be though that if the
>>> participant is worried about the dangers it would be extremely easy to
>>> avoid them.
>>
>>
>> That's just the thing, it is often easy. Like not being seen in time by
>> car drivers. Cost me less than a meal at a good restaurant to fix that
>> (bright lights). Or not being able to stop in time in the rain,
>> something that disk brakes easily fix at a modest expense.
>
> But the outright terror expressed by some cyclists make one wonder why
> they just do not stop taking part in this extremely dangerous
> activity.
>
> One might consider that "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder" (PTSD) is
> caused not only by being exposed to the stressful activity but also by
> the worry and terror about taking part in that activity.

A cyclist who does not feel comfortable sharing a narrow county road
with car drivers who are sometimes soused or distracted can elect not to
and use routes with bike paths instead. Which to me are preferable for
many other reasons anyhow.

Yesterday I rode 31 miles and most of that was a long singletrack.
Petted a horse and a donkey, watched a hawk do some fun aerobatics,
totally enjoyable. To me bicycling can't get any better than that.

[Joerg]

On 2015-07-17 5:34 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 10:28:32 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-07-17 7:34 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> ... because chainrings are
>>> demonstrably far more dangerous than mudguards, and the injury they
>>> cause on contact is going to be far more complex.
>>> Have you fitted an airbag to your stem yet?
>>>
>>
>> As I've said several times now there are risks that can't be avoided at
>> a reasonable effort and then there are risks that can be, where
>> mitigation is easy. I prefer to take advantage of the latter.
>
> But there is no real reason that a chain case could not be made to fit
> a derailer equipped bicycle. It would have to contain the derailers of
> course but that seems simple enough to make and with current designs
> of electric shifts it would be nearly 100% effective.

True. But like with a lot of things (central battery lighting comes to
mind, or just good rear lights) the bike industry fails to come forth
with such products. I'd have to build my own. With fiber mats and resin
this could be done but would turn into a serious project.

[Joerg]

On 2015-07-17 5:34 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

Yes, that it is. But as usual it depends. A guy who barrels down steep
rocky hills and has the bike airborne much of the time might see that
differently. My bike dealer is a competition mountain biker (but does
ride a road bike sometimes as well).

> Logically one would cease the most dangerous activities first and than
> worry about the far lesser dangers.

I work mostly in aerospace and med tech and there we have a different
viewpoint. The risk is always present but avoiding activities comes with
serious other consequences for society. So we try our best to minimize
risks wherever possible and develop an eye for where we can do so. This
is also why design reviews are mandatory in such fields.

Like when a friend made a mod to a dirt bike. I looked at it and pointed
out a major crash injury risk caused by an aluminum piece. It took us
just a few minutes to think up a mod that was easy, takes that risk out,
yet does not compromise the function of the new part.