Re: knackered bottom bracket

[Ned Mantei]

On 8/7/2016 AMuzi wrote:

> That said, regular cleaning and lubrication can keep even
> midrange hub and BB bearings running for a cyclist's
> lifetime. We see Record hubs regularly (mailed in for new
> spokes and rims) which are running well after 40~50 years
> with annual or 2-year bearing service.

This would agree with my experience with my mountain bike, although at
13 years it still has a long way to go to match Andrew's example. But I
wonder about another bike with a Shimano hub dynamo. It seemed quite
tricky to take the hub apart to get at the bearing on the right side, so
I have left that side as is. It's now 10 years old, and rolls smoothly
except for the drag of the generator. Given that the seals on this hub
are supposed to be very good, how long could it still last? The bike is
ridden rain or shine, but not when there is snow or ice on the road (so
no road salt).

Ned

[Joerg]

He explains it, including removing the rotor which you don't need to do
this time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF5BUwS5uDM

The wires seem to snap easily and it happened in this video where he
mentions that he'll now have to solder them after re-assembly. The
pictures explain it but if you need any part translated let me know.

BTW, does anyone know where to find a decently priced 700c front wheel
with hub dynamo? I found some on Amazon for just over $50 but only for
wider tires. I need them for 23-25mm road tires. My front rim is at a
point where in maybe a year I'll have to replace it anyhow.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

your machinery last forever caws ura gifted mechanic

J's falls apart caws he spend too much time typing

[Radey Shouman]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> writes:

> On 2016-08-09 08:35, Ned Mantei wrote:
>> On 8/7/2016 AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>> That said, regular cleaning and lubrication can keep even
>>> midrange hub and BB bearings running for a cyclist's
>>> lifetime. We see Record hubs regularly (mailed in for new
>>> spokes and rims) which are running well after 40~50 years
>>> with annual or 2-year bearing service.
>>
>> This would agree with my experience with my mountain bike, although at
>> 13 years it still has a long way to go to match Andrew's example. But I
>> wonder about another bike with a Shimano hub dynamo. It seemed quite
>> tricky to take the hub apart to get at the bearing on the right side, so
>> I have left that side as is. It's now 10 years old, and rolls smoothly
>> except for the drag of the generator. Given that the seals on this hub
>> are supposed to be very good, how long could it still last? The bike is
>> ridden rain or shine, but not when there is snow or ice on the road (so
>> no road salt).
>>
>
> He explains it, including removing the rotor which you don't need to
> do this time:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF5BUwS5uDM
>
> The wires seem to snap easily and it happened in this video where he
> mentions that he'll now have to solder them after re-assembly. The
> pictures explain it but if you need any part translated let me know.

Having done that, I suggest soldering a braided copper pigtail to the
aluminum wire. I used flux intended for aluminum, tinned the aluminum
wire with leaded solder, then soldered on the copper pigtail.

Shimano actually have a patent on that fairly obvious idea, but I
don't know that they have ever marketed a product that uses it.


--

[Radey Shouman]

^stranded

[Joerg]

I didn't know Shimano used aluminum wire. Could there be some technical
reason or was that to save a penny?

If you coat it well enough it might even weather salty air and all the
stuff a bicycle might go through during its life. Connecting aluminum to
copper gives me the goose bumps but as John Wayne put it sometimes "man
has got to do what man has got to do". Unfortunately we have that in our
house wiring.

[jbeattie]

Joining copper and aluminum wiring with an ordinary wire nut or even on a screw binding post on an outlet has caused a lot of house fires. You need to join them with a special device because the two metals expand differently.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

They are terminated in a special screw terminal for aluminum. However,
one has to occasionally make sure it's all still good and tight. If
nobody does that for half a century because maybe they don't know what
lurks behind the panels then all hell can break loose. Legally this can
only be done by a licensed electrician because the panel fronts have to
come off.

[jbeattie]

I did my own wiring for a bathroom remodel, and the inspector didn't ding me for not using an electrician -- and I wired new circuits into the panel. Maybe its different here, or its changed since this project.

The aluminum wire thing comes up periodically in cases I see. Luckily, my old house is all copper -- mostly ungrounded, although the codes in the 50s did require grounding for some boxes, so when I rat around, I find grounded and ungrounded boxes -- and god knows where the grounds are going. I'm not seeing them back at the breaker box. My father (who was an electrician in the Navy during WW II and later a pharmacist) gave me the best advice: "If you need to work on a hot circuit, don't stand in a puddle." Words to live by.

-- Jay Beattie.

[David Scheidt]

jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:

:I did my own wiring for a bathroom remodel, and the inspector didn't ding me for not using an electrician -- and I wired new circuits into the panel. Maybe its different here, or its changed since this project.

Lots of variation in that. Some places in the US let homeowners do
their own electrical work (because they know they're going to anyway),
some require a licensed electrician to do anything more than change a
light bulb (but homeowners do their own work, and non electricians do
stuff when they think they should). Still other parts of the country
have no licensing requirements, or only silly paperwork requirements
for licensing.

--
sig 46

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Shim lives on an island in the western Pacific ...

Copper isnot mechanical

Doahn stand...is a Calism ?

[Ned Mantei]

On 10-08-16 02:44, jbeattie wrote:

>
> I did my own wiring for a bathroom remodel, and the inspector didn't ding me for not using an electrician -- and I wired new circuits into the panel. Maybe its different here, or its changed since this project.
>
> The aluminum wire thing comes up periodically in cases I see. Luckily, my old house is all copper -- mostly ungrounded, although the codes in the 50s did require grounding for some boxes, so when I rat around, I find grounded and ungrounded boxes -- and god knows where the grounds are going. I'm not seeing them back at the breaker box. My father (who was an electrician in the Navy during WW II and later a pharmacist) gave me the best advice: "If you need to work on a hot circuit, don't stand in a puddle." Words to live by.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.
>

Reminds me of the story I heard about a family in Toronto who noticed
that there was a "tingly" feeling in the shower. It turned out that
something had shorted to ground, which was connected to the water pipes.
However, there was a section of plastic pipe in the basement where the
water main connected. So no ground...

[AMuzi]

Yes, mostly a dead weight on society as the infamous Chicago
hair braiding license:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-05/news/ct-met-trice-hairbraiding-1005-20111005_1_hair-braiders-united-african-organization-professional-hair

Which is, by the way, well publicized but not as onerous or
ridiculous as some other jurisdictions (State of Iowa for
example)

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Radey Shouman]

Al saves weight and money. It's not a bad choice except that the wire
work hardens and breaks when you look at it sideways.

> If you coat it well enough it might even weather salty air and all the
> stuff a bicycle might go through during its life. Connecting aluminum
> to copper gives me the goose bumps but as John Wayne put it sometimes
> "man has got to do what man has got to do". Unfortunately we have that
> in our house wiring.

I'm fairly sure the entire electrical circuit is not Al, so an Al/Cu
connection is required somewhere. I have used my modified hub
frequently over several years with no trouble.

--

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/10/2016 7:42 AM, Ned Mantei wrote:
>
>
> Reminds me of the story I heard about a family in Toronto who noticed
> that there was a "tingly" feeling in the shower. It turned out that
> something had shorted to ground, which was connected to the water pipes.
> However, there was a section of plastic pipe in the basement where the
> water main connected. So no ground...

We had a very difficult electrical problem at an extended family
member's older house. The metal cover plates on outlets in the
basement-level screened in porch were causing a slight "tingling" for
just one person - the one whose bare feet were touching the concrete
floor. Those with shoes felt nothing. And we found that when rain
slightly moistened one part of that floor, a barefoot person near the
moist area got much more than a slight tingle.

It took a long time to diagnose, and turned out to be a double fault.
First, the ground wire connection to that circuit was made in a remote
ceiling fixture box in a utility room. Somehow it had come loose,
perhaps during some work done by the previous owner. Second, one of the
hot wires had broken loose from its outlet terminal and was
microscopically contacting the metal service box. Oh, and the diagnosis
wasn't helped by the fact that the porch light switch on the same
circuit was faulty.

It's now all protected by a GFCI.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Oklahoma n Kansas have websites....California is ad hoc .....Oregon obfuscates

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Knackered&utm_source=search-action

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

"remodeling" has many surprises n one is why did this not burn down 10 years ago ...

once remodeled a pig sty built 1860 ? inot a rec room

down the street from Grant's et al Favorite Barn n Grillo... The Seed Money ....

[John B.]

Depending on the wiring, sometimes simply "turning the plug over"
stops that.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I read that bit to my (Thai) wife who looked at me in amazement and
muttered something under her breath that sounded like "stupid
foreigners" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Generally speaking, aluminum is cheaper than copper and also
lighter... and also can safely carry less amperage. One Air Base I
worked at had all aluminum secondary wiring. The Base Exchange started
selling little small air conditioning units and the guys in the
barracks started buying them and installing them. The "Entrance"
wiring - from the pole to the barracks - started melting off :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

High amperage shouldn't be a big problem for a bicycle dynamo.

During the 70s Al was used for house wiring in the US, leading to
problems when unsuitable connectors gradually increased in resistance
and heated up. There is still quite a lot of Al wiring about, but I
guess the really bad jobs have all been repaired or burned down.


--

[AMuzi]

Up here in West Consin we have more colorful names for our
Illinois neighbors. They reciprocate I'm sure.

[John B.]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:17:05 -0400, Radey Shouman

During the '70's the price of copper went to an extremely high price
and thus it became almost unfeasible to build a house with copper,
using the U.S. low voltage system. And of course, that cheaper
Aluminum wiring is still in a lot of walls. The problem isn't in the
initial wire it is what came later. The extension cord plugged into a
single receptacle so that the fridge, microwave, ice maker, dishwasher
and a second microwave (for popcorn) can all be plugged in :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, given that she has a foreign husband I'm fairly sure that she
does temper her language a bit, from time to time :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[David Scheidt]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

:Up here in West Consin we have more colorful names for our

:Illinois neighbors. They reciprocate I'm sure.

only when we have to drive behind one.



--
sig 113

[David Scheidt]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
:On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:17:05 -0400, Radey Shouman

No, the problem is the aluminum wire. Or rather, the improper
termination of the aluminum wire. Aluminum expands at different rates
than copper, so the connections can come loose over time. Loose
connections lead to heat. Aluminum wire is also more brittle, and can
be damaged when someone works on it, which leads to higher resistance
and heat. Additionally, aluminum wire can oxidize, which also leads to
higher resistance connections. All that heat can lead to a nice fire,
even without overload.

Aluminun is still widely used for wire, but mostly for large gauge
stuff, which suffers less from those problems. And it's supposede to
be treated with anti-corrision goop.

(And, properly protected wiring will trip the
breaker before the overload can start a fire. Unless, of course, some
moron has replaced the proper breaker with an oversized one, like they
did in my house. 30A breakers on 14 gauge wire! That got fixed
before we moved in.)



--
sig 88

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

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https://www.google.com/#q=perjorative+racial+ethnic+slurs+national+emnities

[John B.]

Well, yes. Except that every professional electrician I ever worked
with will, when something doesn't work quite right, immediately
tighten all the connections and I'm going right up to the 4,000 volt
connections to the "Pole Pig". And you know? Quite often that fixes
the problem. Even with copper to copper connections :-)

>
>Aluminun is still widely used for wire, but mostly for large gauge
>stuff, which suffers less from those problems. And it's supposede to
>be treated with anti-corrision goop.

Nope. The coefficient of expansion doesn't care if it is Big Aluminum
or Little Aluminum it is the same. :-)

>(And, properly protected wiring will trip the
>breaker before the overload can start a fire. Unless, of course, some
>moron has replaced the proper breaker with an oversized one, like they
>did in my house. 30A breakers on 14 gauge wire! That got fixed
>before we moved in.)

From the houses we have rented from time to time over the years my
guess is that "putting a penny" in the fuse is an almost universal
practice. Over here there are still a few of the old "knife switch and
fuse wire" entrance connections on old houses and if you replace the
old fashioned lead fuse wire with copper you will never have another
blown fuse :-)

I've never seen a house wired with aluminum but I would guess the real
problem might be in the circuit breakers. A pretty standard size
breaker for #12 copper wire would be a 20 amp breaker, which wired
with aluminum #12 wire would be about 30% oversize.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:

> On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 14:48:53 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
> <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
>>:On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:17:05 -0400, Radey Shouman
>>:<sho...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>:>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> writes:
>>:>
>>:>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 11:06:07 -0400, Radey Shouman
>>:>> <sho...@comcast.net> wrote:

------------%<---------

I haven't seen an actual household fuse box in a US rental house for 45
years or so. Those insurance companies you were lecturing about might
object.

> I've never seen a house wired with aluminum but I would guess the real
> problem might be in the circuit breakers. A pretty standard size
> breaker for #12 copper wire would be a 20 amp breaker, which wired
> with aluminum #12 wire would be about 30% oversize.

I lived in a newly built house with Al wiring in 74-75, and again in an
apartment building with Al wiring until four years ago. In neither case
could you tell without actually looking at the wires.

You make it sound as though gangs of rogue electricians, high on black
market "acid flux", just decided to install some Al wire that fell off a
truck. In actual fact the wire was manufactured for house wiring, which
was done according to the code at the time. Larger diameter Al wire was
required compared to Cu in equivalent service. Initially all worked
well, but, as Mr. Scheidt says, there was an unforeseen increase in
wiring connection resistance, sometimes ending in fire.


--

[John B.]

On Sat, 13 Aug 2016 13:49:14 -0400, Radey Shouman

I haven't even seen a U.S. house in 40, or more, years :-)

I did check the Electrical code and generally it does refer to fuses
so I guess in some instances they are still legal, but certainly I
would think it justified for an insurance to shield the fools from any
possible contact with danger so I wouldn't find it surprising for a
home box to contain only little plastic handles marked 10, 15 and 20
:-)

>> I've never seen a house wired with aluminum but I would guess the real
>> problem might be in the circuit breakers. A pretty standard size
>> breaker for #12 copper wire would be a 20 amp breaker, which wired
>> with aluminum #12 wire would be about 30% oversize.
>
>I lived in a newly built house with Al wiring in 74-75, and again in an
>apartment building with Al wiring until four years ago. In neither case
>could you tell without actually looking at the wires.
>
>You make it sound as though gangs of rogue electricians, high on black
>market "acid flux", just decided to install some Al wire that fell off a
>truck. In actual fact the wire was manufactured for house wiring, which
>was done according to the code at the time. Larger diameter Al wire was
>required compared to Cu in equivalent service. Initially all worked
>well, but, as Mr. Scheidt says, there was an unforeseen increase in
>wiring connection resistance, sometimes ending in fire.

Of course house wiring was manufactured for house wiring :-) And, as
far as I know it still is. And it is made to exactly the same codes
and standards as copper wire. You can, for example, buy #12 copper
wire and you can buy #12 aluminum wire. And you can also buy aluminum
to copper connectors.

I worked at one Air Base where all the "secondary" wire was aluminum,
made up to any copper connection with the proper aluminum to copper
connectors and there was no more problems with loose connections in
the Aluminum wire than there was with any other wire.

The old wives tale that aluminum, simply because it is aluminum
somehow gets loose and copper simply doesn't seems to be just that.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

You need larger gauge aluminum versus copper for same current carrying
capability.


> ... And you can also buy aluminum

> to copper connectors.
>
> I worked at one Air Base where all the "secondary" wire was aluminum,
> made up to any copper connection with the proper aluminum to copper
> connectors and there was no more problems with loose connections in
> the Aluminum wire than there was with any other wire.
>
> The old wives tale that aluminum, simply because it is aluminum
> somehow gets loose and copper simply doesn't seems to be just that.
>

Let's put this on a more realistic footing.

https://www.nachi.org/aluminum-wiring.htm

[David Scheidt]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
:>
:>Aluminun is still widely used for wire, but mostly for large gauge

:>stuff, which suffers less from those problems. And it's supposede to
:>be treated with anti-corrision goop.

:Nope. The coefficient of expansion doesn't care if it is Big Aluminum
:or Little Aluminum it is the same. :-)

Larger conductors have less of the problems because they're installed
to equipment designed for aluminum conductors, larger conductors are
operated at lower temperatures, and because their devices are fucked
with less often.


:I've never seen a house wired with aluminum but I would guess the real

:problem might be in the circuit breakers. A pretty standard size

No. The problems are at splices, and at device termination, for the
reasons listed up the thread.



--
sig 109